i can say with full confidence the hardest i have ever laughed in TF2 was any time i was in a class wars matchup of medic vs. medic on either A+D or CTF. the server basically becomes 32 decapitated chickens screaming medic and threatening to saw through your bones
Facing attack engie in class warfare that isn’t an team of demo and heavy is 90% the definition of slow and painful. It like a horror game where the horror is slowly creeping up.
you wouldn't expect a guy with 11 friggin' PhDs to be good in combat, would you ? But you forgot they are 16 guys all from texas, each with 11 PhDs....
Engineer is almost impossible to beat on defense by anyone except maybe Demoman. It's ridiculous when there's already 6 sentries scattered around your spawn by the time the gate opens.
You would be hard pressed to find that Attack Heavy is deceptively strong against Defend Engineer, for whatever reasons. Of course he might not be able to win everytime but in a fight, 40/60. I'm a long-time devotee of CW, and at one point was ranked #2 on BW Singaporean Class War server so I know what I'm saying
@@rymd9912 well it depends in my opinion on the team composition of the engineers and how they play off each other. Engies that fall to heavies in my experience are poorly coordinated and don’t use the wrangler effectively, thus the sheer number of heavies simply presses forward like a wall of death and sweeps everything in a tide of bullets. Those that don’t are the engies that play optimally with the wrangler and making 300 hp mini sentries interspersed between normal sentries with ungodly health. Also they are likely being supported by other engies dispensers and are being tanked, making it so the heavies struggle to even leave spawn
An equal skill pyro will never consistently win against an equal skill soldier except for the first few gotcha moments. Even when the pyro is an airblast god, the soldier will just win every shotgun duel thanks to more HP
soldier is slower than pyro so pyro can just use his flamethrow in conjuction with his flare guns n shit. Sure stock soldier could theroetically be better then stock pyro (again tho pyro can just use his flamethrower since hes faster) but like meta pyro doesnt use stock, he uses like 90% of his better weapons
I remember my first time going against attack Medic, and my god did I underestimate them. As long as they know how the ubersaw works, it's an endless horde of invincible zombies
From my experience, Soldier and Demoman are the only ones who can defeat the Medic army easily. Everyone else (especially Scout, since he does the lowest damage in general) struggles.
Then the ones who can't ubersaw hang back and spam crossbows from the back line, healing their allies and mowing down your team. Or give them the vaccinator buff to make them even more immortal. A thing of beauty, really
@@taylorevandale4261 pyros and scouts are the only defence against uber chaining medics. since they need to get into melee range to ubersaw you in the face air blast and the scouts speed paired with the force-a-nature knock back are pretty safe for keeping the medics at bay. everyone else is just fodder, spies die to the hail of needles, demoman needs too much coordination to not detonate all stickies on the point the moment just one of them looses uber, heavies get rolled as soon as more than two of them start running out of ammo, soldiers might do it if they're all smart enough to use the cow mangler, which they're not. hell i have seen uber medics roll over defence engineer on badwater last week, it's completely insane.
One note about Attacking Medic: If the team coordinates right, they can basically just use stock ubers like a fake Bonk and ignore the entire enemy team, save for engi. If they do it right, they can win games as fast as scout teams.
@@nellzdablackking Absolutely but I've seen it happen a surprising amount of times. Although, to be fair, most of those times were when my team was on Scout, Sniper, Spy, or a Medic ditto.
@@johnnyjoestar4473 would be a lot less viable when the other team has knockback options, so Soldier Demo Engineer and really good Pyro teams are out of the question. *Maybe* Heavy too if they body block but that's 50/50
I feel like medic is the class that can swing the widest in this mode. Can fail miserably if played badly, but can completely dominate if the team plays and coordinates well. If you have a couple of medics that know how to use the vaccinator for example that's a MASSIVE advantage in a mode like this, and crit uber can fail horribly if your mark can't aim needles but it can also tear new assholes surprisingly fast if he DOES know how to aim needles. If a team can combine uber chains, well aimed crit needles and melee, and you got vaccinator medics protecting the crit boosted guys, that can be surprisingly brutal.
@@juango500 the vaccinator is all fine and dandy until the dipshit scout, axtinguisher pyro, critscutter demoknight, kgb heavy, engineer, uber chaining medic and 100% crit sniper comes running in
Bro these gibus engies carry hard. Half the time they just random kids who wanna help their team out, and chose some support class like medic or engine cus they dont play well as anything else lmfao.
defense engineer plays like a tower defense game, playing against it can sometimes be really hype due to the severity of the challenge (if morale somehow remains high) the best strategy for attack spy is to try to turn the map friendly and sneak a back cap
>strong against every class >practically infinite resources >everybody can help each other >reliable damage, can kill even a heavy in a couple of seconds Engineer on class wars is genuinely the biggest threat to the world
@@ZorotheGallade i have seen uber chaining medics completely shit on defence engineer on badwater last week. the sentries don't do much and medic runs faster than engineer, so they're always hitting ubersaws, so they always have uber.
I think the versatility of Demoman having the most different and distinct subclass in the game is underrated. Demo is more or less the only class that can have a balance of power classes to hold the line and pick classes that are completely different to deal with counters to stock Demo, which when played optimally has a lot of potential.
One time I got into a casual Cp_Well game, and everybody on my team were Snipers... because they were doing Class Wars, in a casual game, and let me just say, Casual Class Wars is WAY funnier than Normal Class Wars Edit: HOLY SHIT I GOT A TOP COMMENT, what the actual fuck this never happens, thanks guys :) Oh and by the way, when I say Casual Class wars are much funnier than normal class wars, I mean I threw up the Dr. Pepper I had because I was laughing so hard, it was awesome... Or was that when I was watching Octo's video about Spy Reloading the same night? I dunno it doesn't matter.
I got into a casual match on Egypt, and my whole team went spy. more specifically, the kill feed from my team was all guns, no knives, all because somebody said in chat "gun spy"
I remember being in a game where medic was attacking and engineer was defending and the medics actually managed to push through and win through sheer force of uber
I’ve seen a team of defending engineers lose ONCE. It was dustbowls third stage against a team of heavies, who had to gradually spam their way through the lines of sentries until they got to the final point, and even then it took the better part of 20 minutes to do so.
The best game of class wars I ever had was heavy vs engineer, with engineer on offense. Ended up backcapping as one engineer with 17 seconds left in the round and was literally worshipped as a god by the rest of the server. Edit: The server I was on was the old skiver server that had a plug-in to prevent engineer from placing anything more than mini-sentries.
Engineer slowly being revealed to be the most overpowered class throughout the video is terrifying I’ve never feared a giddy smile until the “Engineer Incident”
@@MuichirouTokito416 Yeah, I don't think anyone was surprised by this. The (slight) downside of attack engie is that they'll have to build everything while being pressured by the enemy team (unless it's the 2d and 3d part of Dustbowl). Defense engineer has a fucking minute or more of complete freedom, and that's more than enough for the short texans to construct a tower fortress of torment lol
A question arises: what would a Highlander team vs. Single Class/Class War styled team tier list look like? Like, how would the nine classes going up against nine Engineers do?
So a full team of 9 highlander-level players against a team all using one class, or class wars but all the players are highlander-level? If it's the latter, I can easily see Defense Sniper going much higher on the tier list.
one thing to mention about defending sniper: use the machina. just have sixteen sniper shooting the machina down a corridor and nothing'S getting through there.
In all seriousness, against sixteen good snipers nobody should be able to win, they only loose because on class wars you have one player who's good at sniper and fifteen who suck.
@@windhelmguard5295 yeah. Have you seen 2 good snipers singlehandedly carrying an entire game of dustbowl? Multiply that by 8 and outside of engineers and potentially spies no one's getting through
@@windhelmguard5295 You say to the Medics who can casually walk up to you with double Ubers to shut you down or invisible spies who can just fire their pistol to gun you down and make you chase shadows. Just to name a few simple counters, also isn't there a Pyro weapon Snipers loath?
@@Buglin_Burger7878 thing is invisible spies don't really matter when you got sixteen machinas firing constantly (or just an endless rain of jarate) and yea the scorch shot sucks for snipers who suck, but when the entire enemy team is pyros there is no reason to not use Darwin's danger shield. Also the fire is only a problem for snipers who're trying to get head shots, which isn't an issue when you know that the enemy team has nothing that won't easily die to a couple body shots. Uber medics are basically the only thing that could counter a team of 16 competent snipers and they'd have to be REALLY good at chaining Ubers to get it done.
Engineer on attack often falls into the pitfall of “we captured the first point, now we must hold this area at all costs” and starts playing defense instead of pushing to last.
A lot of little details went into making this video (editing standpoint) and it's neat to see Not gonna make a massive list on it all or anything, but I appreciate it all the same
One thing I would like to add(and said it again) it dumb that most class warfare use rtd. I get the intended purpose was to give an advantage of the team that had a class disadvantage, but the problem is that since it rng, it possible for the winning to get good rtd, so many times it just adding insult to injury.
Tfw you're being dominated/spawncamped on dustbowl stage 3 for 15 minutes straight and in all that time somehow your team didn't get a single powerplay meanwhile the enemy team got like 5
when people say RTD exists to beat stalemates, that could be a joke, or at least reference to when tf2 dev said crits are to break stalemates lol. "rtd is fair and balanced" ;)
Definitely has to be, because it's totally not like RNG can be a bitch and give the spawncamping winning team an even bigger advantage, while showing an ass of the size of King Kong to the poor losing team
I used to play on a class wars server where they realized how broken Engi was, so instead they installed a plugin that made it so that whenever a team spawned as engi it would force medieval mode Which was very funny when the inevitable Defense engi vs Attack demo came up
I need that server. It’s gonna be really fun when it is medieval mode. I can imagine Demoman is dominant in a class war medieval mode, and Engineer sucks.
I won class wars, as attacking spy, against defense engineers, once. How? I had me and a few friends take cloak and dagger and just sit in their base, invisible, the entire freaking match, until the last minute or so. The engineers decided to camp our spawn, except like, 2. We managed to kill the 2, sap their teleporters, and then take both points. It was hype.
Class Wars is a gamemode that I spend a lot of time recently and it's just a lot of fun. I must say, even tho defence heavies are insane, I've once played against them on the Attack Scout side, and somehow we even won. That was some really nice coordination of mad milks and probably the first time dustbowl was helpful with it's tight corridors. Never had so much fun killing heavies
Medics are my favorites of all time: If you're attacking, if you manage to coordinate well the enemy team will be so confused and surprised of the huge horde of ubered medics that you might actually rush them. And as being defensive, Kritzkrieg+Syringe combo makes you feel like you are rambo by putting surprisingly high DPS. And since a lot of times people underestimate a team full of medics, some teamwork can actually make the dream work.
One thing I might add is that if you go into class wars with a pre made team you can do a really funny thing with projectile classes like soldier, medic, and engineer with pomson, which is coordinated firing squads. I've done that, me and some friends lined up and staggered our shots so that by the time the last in the row fired the first had already fully reloaded so it was just a constant barrage of cowmangler shots, it was fun, class wars allows for a surprisingly high amount of coordination, because it doesn't matter how bad the matchup is (unless it's spy) a well coordinated team led by somebody who understands actual tactics will always be the victor. I've seen engineers on defense crumble because scouts just smash through the first defense and then cap last before they can even get set up
I’ve been frequenting this server for a little while now so it was really cool to see some familiar names show up in the killfeed. Hope I get to see you their sometime!
Same, I'm actually surprised I *haven't* seen GB in the time I've been on the servers. I recognized at least 5 regulars on the Blackwonder servers or so from the vid.
@@vivelespatat2670 in casual since no one is forced to work together, you basically get cucked over hard. The most OP thing in the game, is having a team that goes out of their way to protect the sentries and shit. Bro i found out whenever I play soldier or demo, that literally just protecting the engineer shit ALONE makes you win the game. Its actually insane how engie by itself is pretty weak, but gets exponentially more powerful the more your team cooperates.
That same happened but with the enemy team going engineer, we cant do anything if we cant work together and to make matter worst non ofbus goes engineer to defense the intel and 1 scout was enough to defeat us 😂
As someone who did attacking medics in class wars, they actually are more brutal than you'd think if any amount of coordination is applied. Half going uber/kritz and the other half going syringe/crossbow/ubersaw and then switching off for the other 50% turns into a massive pushing tide that can catch the other team completely off guard. Defending engies are still bull, but all the other classes besides pyros with airblast capable flamethrowers really need to beware an army of crazy german men.
My fright grew massively when it got to heavy and there was still no one strong against engie Edit: it’s worse than I imagined, even engineer is weak against engineer
Theoretically if all 12 snipers were bots he would automatically be the best or 2nd best class in the class wars Attacking against them means jack shit if 12 botted snipers can basically delete the entire enemy team in seconds
No. You can overwhelm bots easily, if you throw enough people (with the right loadouts) at them. So they Sniper don't even have that. And I really don't get why people say he's OP... "He CaN OnE-ShOt PeOpLe FrOm AnY rAnGe" yeah, sure... almost all the classes have weapons/mechanics that deny that one-shot potential and you can hide your head hitbox by literally just looking up... And it takes time to charge up to one-shot beefier target... and outside of a lucky headshot, he has nearly no capicity in CQC... and he has 125hp... Sniper REALLY isn't as strong as people say he is. Even bots can be dealt with easily.
@@drucy. "literally no capacity in CQC" you go into CQC with a good sniper, bam, quickscope headshotted for 150 most snipers wont be able to pull it off reliably, but some *definitely can* and the other snipers will jarate+bushwacka you, but at least thats possible to play around idk if sniper is overpowered or not, but you have to acknowledge that its not _fun_ to instantly die to someone you dont even know is there
Maybe adding 2fort Any 3 and 5 Control Point map and Halloween maps into Class Wars could spice up Class wars. Maybe making RTD 120s wait or having some servers where it is disabled or customized to put a balance which otherwise wouldn't be there.
I remember playing in a class wars server back in the day that restricted engineers to mini sentries, if I recall correctly it was skiver's class wars server but I have no clue if that server is still around since its been years
Tbh if there's something I can do about this gamemode,this is what I will do: _Ambassador in this gamemode is revert back to the pre-nerf Jungle Inferno state _Short Circuit cannot get metals from dispenser or payload cart while active _Reduced Wrangler shiled resistance from x3 to x2,when sentry is unwrangled the shield is gone _RTD can only be used when the number players on both teams are 7 or more
You'd never expect it in a tier list video but the buildup to the engineer reveal with the matchups list, always present but never directly commented on, is some amazing storytelling.
Spy beats engie if you have a good team, but since you don’t really get great players often, and if you do they rarely play together it sucks. Class wars as engie is op is because it’s a class made to work with others so a engie doing well himself is doing well for his team.
i just watched the introduction and i can already tell you did your research, especially from the perspective of someone who follows the FGC, love that you take more than just matchups into consideration and the way you divided the classes
I really like class wars even tho some rounds are straight unfair with some matchups but still like playing because its hilarious sometimes and fun i love when its arena Just shit when you want to change weapons in arena
theres a weird discrepancy where on the defending engineer part it says they have a two star advantage but on the attacking engineer its says they have a 3 star disadvantage to defending engineer
I will always rembember that time where I was playing class wars on dustbowl, it was the 3rd phase, the matchup was Engineers (blu team) vs Pyros (red team), I was on the red team and the blu team capped the 1st point and they were getting dangerously near to the 2nd point because they built a whole nest on the 1st point, I then used the !rtd command, and I got a Powerplay which allowed me to whipe the whole nest, long story short, we (red team) won, with a total of *SEVEN* powerplays in the same round. Truly astounding.
I played class wars for a few hours today, and there were about 8 people in the lobby discussing this video. Ultimately, it was decided that this video is a pretty great guide for players. I hadn't actually watched it yet so I didn't give my thoughts lol
Medic VS Engineer is actually a lot less unfair than you'd think, I was medic and won against engies on defence because we could just keep shooting and healing over and over
I've developed a fun little habit anytime I have to be against engies on defense; I start playing (JP) Bad Future Wacky Workbench, from Sonic CD. It cheers me up enough through the very stacked odds. (not taking RTD into effect of course) This is very effective when the local rotation server is full and I'm stuck on the 24/7 Dustbowl server where we ended up wiping the first 2 rounds then get stuck on the 3rd area for 18 minutes because no one on the team wants to surrender.
i just noticed something.... You designed the class icons SUPER well, hell, its amazing to look at! Attack icons are most obviously blue, but notice how they always look right? they do! every attack icon looks right. Same for defense, obviously red, but they always look LEFT! what about for even? Well Great Blue did an amazing thing! they have a more soft coloring, not blue, or red! And get this... THEY LOOK FORWARD. Im probably going too far into this but GOD DAMMIT i would be sad if graphic design wasn't my passion! Oh and uh... the rest of the video is good. yeah.
While i do understand that engineer is a powerhouse, i feel like you're overhyping him a bit much in offense. Short circuit spam will literally only save you if the locker has a direct sightline to spawn exit to hurt people spawn camping, 'cause other than that, even those small delays of running to it to recharge wont help them get out if the defensive class is too oppressive. Also, offensive engineer will at best control the 1st point but the second they have to go through a choke it's over. They're too slow to move and that's their weakness, they tend to require much more time than given. In regards to the classes that can precisely keep them in check: Any of the main 4 powerclasses unless it's some dumb stuff like stage 1 dustbowl and even then, heavies will still have a field day. At the end, offensive engineer is as good as the set up time he gets. If he gets none, he can easily be kept contained, which is why i believe heavy to be the best class (other than defensive engine) to deal with them. They don't care about losing their projectiles, they have a lot of HP and will shred buildings (and engies), plus they can heal themselves as well. In regards to defense engie: he's broken yes, but saying that the best pick against him is soldier is like...what about the short circuit literally deleting their primary??? If anything heavy's the one with the best chance to pierce through (like you said), at that point it comes down to skill. If engies split up to protect all points they're fucked. If they focus defense on last then yes, nothing beats that. On neutral is like i said. It comes down to how well they can be contained and some classes can absolutely do that. ...i really don't understand why you seem fixated on implying that soldier is the one with the highest chance when both him and demo suffer the same issue. Heavy is the one with that chance, the class that doesn't care about projectile deletion
The issue with Heavy is that Heavies can't outdamage sentries, especially since Heavies specifically DEAL LESS DAMAGE to sentries Plus, they're slow, so they really can't push up easily Soldier at the very least has the potential to even temporarily shut down a sentry, or the ability to straight up delete one faster than basically any other class Yeah the Short Circuit counters this hard but it's still potentially possible... BARELY
Heavy on offense will struggle to even leave spawn since there are several sentries surrounding them from all angles that have effectively several thousands of Hp to chew through. Basically imagine the heavies having to face other heavies that are standing outside spawn and effectively have more hp then them, as well as insane damage, healing, extra rocket damage, and support from the short circuit engineers firing at them dealing AOE
The same force which lets people that just died revive themselves by pressing E, give people tons of HP in overheal, and overall make Halloween spells look balanced by comparison.
I want to give spy the benefit of the doubt, he actually does stand an *even* chance against engineer for only one good reason: his sappers. Specifically the red tape recorder is insanely well on class wars because it halts the growth of buildings and makes them much easier to destroy. As well as his revolver can usually 2-3 shot engineers at close range. It’s an uphill battle for both, if the spy acknowledges he can’t rely on backstabs or headshots, he can do well against (at least) defense engineers. Weapons I suggest, be the enforcer (surprisingly), stock revolver, your eternal reward, stock/spycicle, and the red tape recorder (normal sappers are useful too).
When you think about it, fighting an engie is like fighting a stationary amalgamation of a heavy, soldier, medic, and pyro if you include the short circuit.
On the soldier part, I think you should add The Disciplinary Action as a noteable support too. It boosts everyone's speed getting out of spawn, meaning they either don't need to rocket jump, or get boosted rocket jumps. It helps get past nasty chokepoints or sightlines, give burst movement, ETC. I find it's a really underrated tool overall, but especially in Class Wars.
one note about attacking spy, i have been in a few games where we won while getting spawncamped to shit because someone somehow backcapped and nobody on the defending team noticed in time
I had a situation with being spawncamped by pyros and we were snipers. Since we did have limited options we returned to the Napoleontic war and just using machinas we made a line of snipers and one of ours was sacrificing himself to open the spawn doors, so we could make some progress. It worked ... somehow. We lost, but we had a lot of fun.
i remember getting a Sniper (Defense) vs Engineer (Offense) on Dustbowl last; everyone thought it was game over. What no one expected, is that the snipers hold last for over 30 minutes straight and win.
An older class wars server that doesn’t exist anymore had an engineer nerf in place that restricted them to mini sentries. It made the balance MUCH closer.
![[TF2] MvM Bingo](/img/1.gif)
i can say with full confidence the hardest i have ever laughed in TF2 was any time i was in a class wars matchup of medic vs. medic on either A+D or CTF. the server basically becomes 32 decapitated chickens screaming medic and threatening to saw through your bones
The terror of 8 uber'd Ubersaw medics charging at you with 8 Ubering them is not something you can replicate in another game.
*primal German fear*
1 Medic turning into a power class is a bad move.
16 Medic turning into a power class is an approved strategy.
@@vivelespatat2670Only 16? I'm glad the summer update has blessed us with up to 50 players on each team.
Just reading that made me laugh
"You know what this team needs? Five more snipers." - The Sniper
“Too right mate”
“Yeah!”
“Bloody beaut!”
“Wicked!”
“Aaaallll right!”
- The other 5 snipers
G'DAY
8 spy vs 8 sniper would sound just like casual tf2
*Spin-bot engage*
Let's get to work!
I will say Pyro vs Pyro is always the best match up because the insane amount of particles makes servers stop working properly
When the server fucking crashes due to too many particles
Pyro has ascended from setting people on fire to setting computers on fire
Or demo vs demo bcs of the number of stickys
Source 1 Engine moment
Pfft back in my day pyros could crash servers single handedly by lodging flares into walls
Engineer is proof that teamwork is the most overpowered aspect of Team Fortress 2, who knew.
You misspelled wrangler
@@krag3405 no, he renamed his Wrangler "Teamwork" obviously
@@royplatt455 _kek_
Otherwise it'll be Fortress 2
Maybe the real TF2 was the friends we made along the way.
Facing attack engie in class warfare that isn’t an team of demo and heavy is 90% the definition of slow and painful. It like a horror game where the horror is slowly creeping up.
What is the wording on this???
godzilla had a stroke trying to read this and fucking died
Grrrra gurhhha *LONG INTENSE FARD NOISE*
And then someone rtd's powerplay and breaks everything sending the entire match back to square one.
@@ZorotheGallade or Homing Projectile with Soldier
Throughout all of the video everyone's weakness is listed as engi.
It's terrifying the slow realization that one single class rules them all...
It was when I saw Demoman, the class that usually counters Engineer, had a losing matchup against him that I realized one class stood above the rest
you wouldn't expect a guy with 11 friggin' PhDs to be good in combat, would you ? But you forgot they are 16 guys all from texas, each with 11 PhDs....
@@ernestlwi3429 and all of them, solve practical problems...
@@lopezgonzalezfrancisco4731 Not problems like "what is beauty?"...
@@NitroCodes Cuz that would fall within the purview of your conundrum of philosophy.
Engineer is almost impossible to beat on defense by anyone except maybe Demoman. It's ridiculous when there's already 6 sentries scattered around your spawn by the time the gate opens.
You would be hard pressed to find that Attack Heavy is deceptively strong against Defend Engineer, for whatever reasons. Of course he might not be able to win everytime but in a fight, 40/60.
I'm a long-time devotee of CW, and at one point was ranked #2 on BW Singaporean Class War server so I know what I'm saying
@@rymd9912 Maybe? His DPS is unmatched up close, but level 3 sentries can definitely push him back hard. I can see that somewhat
heavy and surprisingly medic can counter pretty well too
Demoman Heavy and Soldier have the best chance of beating Engineer on Offense. But heavy is on the last of the 3
@@rymd9912 well it depends in my opinion on the team composition of the engineers and how they play off each other.
Engies that fall to heavies in my experience are poorly coordinated and don’t use the wrangler effectively, thus the sheer number of heavies simply presses forward like a wall of death and sweeps everything in a tide of bullets.
Those that don’t are the engies that play optimally with the wrangler and making 300 hp mini sentries interspersed between normal sentries with ungodly health. Also they are likely being supported by other engies dispensers and are being tanked, making it so the heavies struggle to even leave spawn
"A pyro can beat a soldier, but 16 pyros will never beat 16 soldiers" has some deep philosophical implications
The implication being if it doesn't work, you need more gun (and explosives)
An equal skill pyro will never consistently win against an equal skill soldier except for the first few gotcha moments. Even when the pyro is an airblast god, the soldier will just win every shotgun duel thanks to more HP
@@abhaybhatt4286 25 more health vs 20% more speed tho
soldier is slower than pyro so pyro can just use his flamethrow in conjuction with his flare guns n shit. Sure stock soldier could theroetically be better then stock pyro (again tho pyro can just use his flamethrower since hes faster) but like meta pyro doesnt use stock, he uses like 90% of his better weapons
@@abhaybhatt4286 also literally 90% of Soldier players use either a banner,boots or forget they have a shotgun
Defense Engineer is simultaneously the most fun and most annoying to play against
Balancing moment.
Engineer gaming
@@Limeskin engineer gaming
engineer gaming
Engineer Gaming
I started to get very concerned when I saw that every class was weak to Engineer
*YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE*
They instill Engifear.
your ugly - engineer
Beware Texas. Beware Texas.
@@MK-gb7ht the only reason why engi is so op is because he lives in texas which is hotter than the sun
I love it when when attack engineers use modified trench warfare to slowly secure defensive positions *using* defensive positions.
The best defence, is a good defence.
I remember my first time going against attack Medic, and my god did I underestimate them. As long as they know how the ubersaw works, it's an endless horde of invincible zombies
My time as attack med was made a bit more interesting considering I don't have the Ubersaw even though I have 2k hours in this game
From my experience, Soldier and Demoman are the only ones who can defeat the Medic army easily. Everyone else (especially Scout, since he does the lowest damage in general) struggles.
Then the ones who can't ubersaw hang back and spam crossbows from the back line, healing their allies and mowing down your team. Or give them the vaccinator buff to make them even more immortal. A thing of beauty, really
@@taylorevandale4261Heavy works even better due to the holiday punch able to hit ubered players and make em laugh
@@taylorevandale4261
pyros and scouts are the only defence against uber chaining medics.
since they need to get into melee range to ubersaw you in the face air blast and the scouts speed paired with the force-a-nature knock back are pretty safe for keeping the medics at bay.
everyone else is just fodder, spies die to the hail of needles, demoman needs too much coordination to not detonate all stickies on the point the moment just one of them looses uber, heavies get rolled as soon as more than two of them start running out of ammo, soldiers might do it if they're all smart enough to use the cow mangler, which they're not. hell i have seen uber medics roll over defence engineer on badwater last week, it's completely insane.
One note about Attacking Medic: If the team coordinates right, they can basically just use stock ubers like a fake Bonk and ignore the entire enemy team, save for engi. If they do it right, they can win games as fast as scout teams.
The keyword there is 'if'.
@@nellzdablackking Absolutely but I've seen it happen a surprising amount of times. Although, to be fair, most of those times were when my team was on Scout, Sniper, Spy, or a Medic ditto.
@@johnnyjoestar4473 would be a lot less viable when the other team has knockback options, so Soldier Demo Engineer and really good Pyro teams are out of the question. *Maybe* Heavy too if they body block but that's 50/50
@@darkness74185 Yeah, but definitely something to look out for when you're defending as a somewhat lackluster defense class.
I feel like medic is the class that can swing the widest in this mode. Can fail miserably if played badly, but can completely dominate if the team plays and coordinates well.
If you have a couple of medics that know how to use the vaccinator for example that's a MASSIVE advantage in a mode like this, and crit uber can fail horribly if your mark can't aim needles but it can also tear new assholes surprisingly fast if he DOES know how to aim needles.
If a team can combine uber chains, well aimed crit needles and melee, and you got vaccinator medics protecting the crit boosted guys, that can be surprisingly brutal.
Slowly watching the video get closer to engineer and seeing all the power classes have losing matchups is very suspenseful.
Power classes are nothing without a team! :3
@@fallongarens6734 To be fair, support classes are even less without a team
@@bobbyferg9173sentry is power, Dispenser is medic, Teleporter is scout. Engineer is Engihere
@@Skullhawk13The Engineer is Engi-here to fill you with Engi-fear.
@@WarTie precisely.
40:31 I imagine part of the reason defenseive medic plays better than attacking medic is becuase in order to capture objectives you cannot be ubered.
BUT HAVE YOU HEARD OF THE VACCINATOR?????
@@juango500 melee
@@juango500 the vaccinator is all fine and dandy until the dipshit scout, axtinguisher pyro, critscutter demoknight, kgb heavy, engineer, uber chaining medic and 100% crit sniper comes running in
@@juango500 Uber saw crits
@@juango500 multiple damage types
Sniper V Sniper on Sawmill turned into a Submachine-Piss-Fest.
It was a ton of fun to beat people with the SMG.
Reminds me of that one stupid Battlefield 3 server, bolt action sniper only between containers. Basically hipfiring and knifing all day.
25:04 I love the box spy trying to blend in before getting his shit rocked by the funny boxing gloves
The sonic spy after lol
@@dvdjhp Your pfp goes hard
This is legit the first time in my life I've seen the box used competitively
"Because the Gibus engineer who is just an absolute chad is just going around upgrading everything"... Jit got called out for the first time ever 😂
69 nice 😎
Bro these gibus engies carry hard.
Half the time they just random kids who wanna help their team out, and chose some support class like medic or engine cus they dont play well as anything else lmfao.
@@honkhonk8009 fr, when i first ever got on tf2 in 2020 i instantly played engineer on 2fort and just camped blue's intel room (i was red engie)
@@showmesomethingrandom4163 you goddamn madman.
Its me i was the gibus engineer
defense engineer plays like a tower defense game, playing against it can sometimes be really hype due to the severity of the challenge (if morale somehow remains high)
the best strategy for attack spy is to try to turn the map friendly and sneak a back cap
To be fair that's kind of messed up, and really is just cheating.
Spy going for a sneaky cap after turning the whole server friendly is expected from him.
Its a SPY.
@@vivelespatat2670 Exactly, let spies be spies. The whole point is to be deceitful.
@@cursedhfy3558 You're a spy, if you don't cheat, you don't try.
@@LexaByteNV now now that doesn't mean we can't kill those *friendly* spies cause you never know
They can even be....
>strong against every class
>practically infinite resources
>everybody can help each other
>reliable damage, can kill even a heavy in a couple of seconds
Engineer on class wars is genuinely the biggest threat to the world
The only way he can be dethroned is if Class Wars got a crossover with VSH and teams had a chance to spawn as 16 Saxton Hales
@@ZorotheGalladedear god.
@@BongoThethere’s more.
@@J-Johna-Jameson no!
@@ZorotheGallade i have seen uber chaining medics completely shit on defence engineer on badwater last week. the sentries don't do much and medic runs faster than engineer, so they're always hitting ubersaws, so they always have uber.
I think the versatility of Demoman having the most different and distinct subclass in the game is underrated. Demo is more or less the only class that can have a balance of power classes to hold the line and pick classes that are completely different to deal with counters to stock Demo, which when played optimally has a lot of potential.
Soldier also has a pick class variant, the trolldier
@@leoelbocchifan Yeah but Trolldier is way worse.
@@Awesomeness-iz3dh skill issue
@@leoelbocchifan your pretty limited by most maps
Fat scout 😭
Oh, we used to have class wars in the early days of tf2. They called them "the Medic update", "the Pyro update, "a Heavy update", etc.
Or…ya know the two ACTUAL class WARS. Demo/Sold, Sniper/Spy.
Jungle Inferno was all pyro, all the time 😄
@@augustday9483cant believe how long its been T_T
One time I got into a casual Cp_Well game, and everybody on my team were Snipers... because they were doing Class Wars, in a casual game, and let me just say, Casual Class Wars is WAY funnier than Normal Class Wars
Edit: HOLY SHIT I GOT A TOP COMMENT, what the actual fuck this never happens, thanks guys :)
Oh and by the way, when I say Casual Class wars are much funnier than normal class wars, I mean I threw up the Dr. Pepper I had because I was laughing so hard, it was awesome... Or was that when I was watching Octo's video about Spy Reloading the same night? I dunno it doesn't matter.
I got into a casual match on Egypt, and my whole team went spy. more specifically, the kill feed from my team was all guns, no knives, all because somebody said in chat "gun spy"
@@saltedjules_ "gun spy" -Mahatma Ghandi, 2022
Well, did you join them?
2fort?
@@saltedjules_ i mightve been in that match… did people attempt to go all demoknight after?
I remember being in a game where medic was attacking and engineer was defending and the medics actually managed to push through and win through sheer force of uber
Popped Übercharge and rolled in? Maybe with a kritz?
Props to Great Blue for not murdering the Kazotsky Kick Heavy at the start
Professionals have STANDARDS.
Check 25:04. He murders a presumably friendly spy for those tasty KGB crits.
@@burgerking5225 He was just putting him out of the misery of being stuck with Spy on Class Wars
You could see him aim,hesitate,then flick away.
I’ve seen a team of defending engineers lose ONCE. It was dustbowls third stage against a team of heavies, who had to gradually spam their way through the lines of sentries until they got to the final point, and even then it took the better part of 20 minutes to do so.
The best game of class wars I ever had was heavy vs engineer, with engineer on offense.
Ended up backcapping as one engineer with 17 seconds left in the round and was literally worshipped as a god by the rest of the server.
Edit: The server I was on was the old skiver server that had a plug-in to prevent engineer from placing anything more than mini-sentries.
I remember when they didn't even have minis. Good times
and then everyone clapped
@@titicaca. God forbid people tell their fun stories.
@@blueberrimuffin6682 sorry didnt hear ya I was worshipping this god
@@titicaca. eh, from my 2k hours in TF2 it does sound like something that would happen
Engineer slowly being revealed to be the most overpowered class throughout the video is terrifying
I’ve never feared a giddy smile until the “Engineer Incident”
Before watching video: Engineer on Defense is busted
After watching video: yeah i guessed about right
The more surprising part is that he's busted on attack as well
I mean,we already know that Defense Engineers is the most overpowered and broken thing u ever see
@@MuichirouTokito416 Yeah, I don't think anyone was surprised by this. The (slight) downside of attack engie is that they'll have to build everything while being pressured by the enemy team (unless it's the 2d and 3d part of Dustbowl). Defense engineer has a fucking minute or more of complete freedom, and that's more than enough for the short texans to construct a tower fortress of torment lol
@@velocilevon Yep,all you need to do when you play Engie on defense is to set your building on right place and done,you win!
@@MuichirouTokito416 True tho, Defense Engineer is way more broken than Sniper which is the most "overpowered" class in TF2 but not in this gamemode
A question arises: what would a Highlander team vs. Single Class/Class War styled team tier list look like? Like, how would the nine classes going up against nine Engineers do?
So a full team of 9 highlander-level players against a team all using one class, or class wars but all the players are highlander-level?
If it's the latter, I can easily see Defense Sniper going much higher on the tier list.
Nothing would happen because the Highlander players would ban everything thats fun to use
@@M50A1Go Highlanders!!! 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
@@youraveragerobloxkid 😂
one thing to mention about defending sniper: use the machina. just have sixteen sniper shooting the machina down a corridor and nothing'S getting through there.
In all seriousness, against sixteen good snipers nobody should be able to win, they only loose because on class wars you have one player who's good at sniper and fifteen who suck.
@@windhelmguard5295 yeah. Have you seen 2 good snipers singlehandedly carrying an entire game of dustbowl? Multiply that by 8 and outside of engineers and potentially spies no one's getting through
We need 16 Fatmagic
@@windhelmguard5295 You say to the Medics who can casually walk up to you with double Ubers to shut you down or invisible spies who can just fire their pistol to gun you down and make you chase shadows.
Just to name a few simple counters, also isn't there a Pyro weapon Snipers loath?
@@Buglin_Burger7878 thing is invisible spies don't really matter when you got sixteen machinas firing constantly (or just an endless rain of jarate) and yea the scorch shot sucks for snipers who suck, but when the entire enemy team is pyros there is no reason to not use Darwin's danger shield.
Also the fire is only a problem for snipers who're trying to get head shots, which isn't an issue when you know that the enemy team has nothing that won't easily die to a couple body shots.
Uber medics are basically the only thing that could counter a team of 16 competent snipers and they'd have to be REALLY good at chaining Ubers to get it done.
Engineer on attack often falls into the pitfall of “we captured the first point, now we must hold this area at all costs” and starts playing defense instead of pushing to last.
A lot of little details went into making this video (editing standpoint) and it's neat to see
Not gonna make a massive list on it all or anything, but I appreciate it all the same
Attack Engineer is basically the closest thing you can get to WWI trench warfare in TF2
Defense Engi is a completely WWI Trench Warfare
One thing I would like to add(and said it again) it dumb that most class warfare use rtd. I get the intended purpose was to give an advantage of the team that had a class disadvantage, but the problem is that since it rng, it possible for the winning to get good rtd, so many times it just adding insult to injury.
Skill issue
@@daviddoesstuffandthingigue966 fr
@@daviddoesstuffandthingigue966 🤓
rtd is the best thing ever invented
Tfw you're being dominated/spawncamped on dustbowl stage 3 for 15 minutes straight and in all that time somehow your team didn't get a single powerplay meanwhile the enemy team got like 5
25:09 is probably the single funniest clip in this entire video
16:25 i think it's this
I can't wait for you to rank every possible class combination you could get on class wars
Probably Soldier vs Heavy (becuz cold war), Medic vs Heavy (germany vs soviet russia) or spy vs spy (yes)
Yeah
And each instance of it. So each class v each class on attack, defense, and even
That would be 84 different matchups (I think, but I’m probably wrong) that would take hours to watch
@@themanwhoatethefrench4505 wouldn't it be 81 for 9 times 9?
Engineer stares into your soul as he appears in every other class’s “weak against” list
when people say RTD exists to beat stalemates, that could be a joke, or at least reference to when tf2 dev said crits are to break stalemates lol. "rtd is fair and balanced" ;)
Definitely has to be, because it's totally not like RNG can be a bitch and give the spawncamping winning team an even bigger advantage, while showing an ass of the size of King Kong to the poor losing team
Which the devs never actually said. It's for those "rare high moments" as said in the dev log thing,
I used to play on a class wars server where they realized how broken Engi was, so instead they installed a plugin that made it so that whenever a team spawned as engi it would force medieval mode
Which was very funny when the inevitable Defense engi vs Attack demo came up
I need that server. It’s gonna be really fun when it is medieval mode. I can imagine Demoman is dominant in a class war medieval mode, and Engineer sucks.
Now I need to find Class Wars in Medieval Mode. I can imagine the meta in that game mode is way different.
I won class wars, as attacking spy, against defense engineers, once.
How? I had me and a few friends take cloak and dagger and just sit in their base, invisible, the entire freaking match, until the last minute or so. The engineers decided to camp our spawn, except like, 2. We managed to kill the 2, sap their teleporters, and then take both points.
It was hype.
W spy
Class Wars is a gamemode that I spend a lot of time recently and it's just a lot of fun.
I must say, even tho defence heavies are insane, I've once played against them on the Attack Scout side, and somehow we even won. That was some really nice coordination of mad milks and probably the first time dustbowl was helpful with it's tight corridors. Never had so much fun killing heavies
Medics are my favorites of all time:
If you're attacking, if you manage to coordinate well the enemy team will be so confused and surprised of the huge horde of ubered medics that you might actually rush them.
And as being defensive, Kritzkrieg+Syringe combo makes you feel like you are rambo by putting surprisingly high DPS.
And since a lot of times people underestimate a team full of medics, some teamwork can actually make the dream work.
One thing I might add is that if you go into class wars with a pre made team you can do a really funny thing with projectile classes like soldier, medic, and engineer with pomson, which is coordinated firing squads.
I've done that, me and some friends lined up and staggered our shots so that by the time the last in the row fired the first had already fully reloaded so it was just a constant barrage of cowmangler shots, it was fun, class wars allows for a surprisingly high amount of coordination, because it doesn't matter how bad the matchup is (unless it's spy) a well coordinated team led by somebody who understands actual tactics will always be the victor. I've seen engineers on defense crumble because scouts just smash through the first defense and then cap last before they can even get set up
I’ve been frequenting this server for a little while now so it was really cool to see some familiar names show up in the killfeed. Hope I get to see you their sometime!
Same, I'm actually surprised I *haven't* seen GB in the time I've been on the servers. I recognized at least 5 regulars on the Blackwonder servers or so from the vid.
30:43
That nobody would be crazy enough to think "oh it's fun to have 3-4 of this one class, what if the entire team was the class?"
"I guess when u become the funny hardhat man,u just gain the ability to cooperate " - Great Blue
I mean, it is true
I wish it was true in Casual
@@vivelespatat2670 in casual since no one is forced to work together, you basically get cucked over hard.
The most OP thing in the game, is having a team that goes out of their way to protect the sentries and shit.
Bro i found out whenever I play soldier or demo, that literally just protecting the engineer shit ALONE makes you win the game.
Its actually insane how engie by itself is pretty weak, but gets exponentially more powerful the more your team cooperates.
I remember once in casual on Frontier we all decided to go heavy. There was literally nothing red could do against us, it was hilarious
That same happened but with the enemy team going engineer, we cant do anything if we cant work together and to make matter worst non ofbus goes engineer to defense the intel and 1 scout was enough to defeat us 😂
As someone who did attacking medics in class wars, they actually are more brutal than you'd think if any amount of coordination is applied. Half going uber/kritz and the other half going syringe/crossbow/ubersaw and then switching off for the other 50% turns into a massive pushing tide that can catch the other team completely off guard. Defending engies are still bull, but all the other classes besides pyros with airblast capable flamethrowers really need to beware an army of crazy german men.
Defense Engineer:"You have become the very thing you swore to destroy!"
Gotta say a no to surrendering as attacking spy, sneaky backcaps are WAY too fun to not try for on A/D
Defo surrender on payload tho, no chance dude
My fright grew massively when it got to heavy and there was still no one strong against engie
Edit: it’s worse than I imagined, even engineer is weak against engineer
Human brain ultimately works on hierarchies, so a tier list is a very fitting thing for taking in not very complex information
“If you loose as engineer it’s a skill difference”
RTD: gives 3 heavies power play
guess I’m just unskilled
Honestly seen worse RTD luck and won
Theoretically if all 12 snipers were bots he would automatically be the best or 2nd best class in the class wars
Attacking against them means jack shit if 12 botted snipers can basically delete the entire enemy team in seconds
So basically Casual the past couple years?
(thankfully things are improving a lot)
No. You can overwhelm bots easily, if you throw enough people (with the right loadouts) at them.
So they Sniper don't even have that.
And I really don't get why people say he's OP...
"He CaN OnE-ShOt PeOpLe FrOm AnY rAnGe" yeah, sure... almost all the classes have weapons/mechanics that deny that one-shot potential and you can hide your head hitbox by literally just looking up... And it takes time to charge up to one-shot beefier target... and outside of a lucky headshot, he has nearly no capicity in CQC... and he has 125hp...
Sniper REALLY isn't as strong as people say he is. Even bots can be dealt with easily.
The person above has never played against a good sniper player, ever lol
@@Game-ne5nb Plenty of time actually.
It's hilariously easy to shut them down. Even solo.
Y'all suck and are unwilling to learn counterplays.
@@drucy. "literally no capacity in CQC" you go into CQC with a good sniper, bam, quickscope headshotted for 150
most snipers wont be able to pull it off reliably, but some *definitely can*
and the other snipers will jarate+bushwacka you, but at least thats possible to play around
idk if sniper is overpowered or not, but you have to acknowledge that its not _fun_ to instantly die to someone you dont even know is there
Maybe adding 2fort Any 3 and 5 Control Point map and Halloween maps into Class Wars could spice up Class wars. Maybe making RTD 120s wait or having some servers where it is disabled or customized to put a balance which otherwise wouldn't be there.
I remember playing in a class wars server back in the day that restricted engineers to mini sentries, if I recall correctly it was skiver's class wars server but I have no clue if that server is still around since its been years
Tbh if there's something I can do about this gamemode,this is what I will do:
_Ambassador in this gamemode is revert back to the pre-nerf Jungle Inferno state
_Short Circuit cannot get metals from dispenser or payload cart while active
_Reduced Wrangler shiled resistance from x3 to x2,when sentry is unwrangled the shield is gone
_RTD can only be used when the number players on both teams are 7 or more
25:02 legit clever move by that spy
You'd never expect it in a tier list video but the buildup to the engineer reveal with the matchups list, always present but never directly commented on, is some amazing storytelling.
Great Blue uploading a tier list video always gets me excited. Or any video for that matter.
They’re always so well produced!
Spy beats engie if you have a good team, but since you don’t really get great players often, and if you do they rarely play together it sucks. Class wars as engie is op is because it’s a class made to work with others so a engie doing well himself is doing well for his team.
Turns out Engineer really took to his motto of “use more gun” and used 16 Engineers worth of gun to dominate everything
i just watched the introduction and i can already tell you did your research, especially from the perspective of someone who follows the FGC, love that you take more than just matchups into consideration and the way you divided the classes
"Enemies are constantly going to be milked" -Great Blue 2020
The fact that you say you should surrender when you and your entire team are Frenchmen is irony at it's finest.
Class wars is just a well made depiction of irl war
Ether you do bligtzkerg or get rolled or become a trench warfare staleman
@@starmaker75 Wrench warfare morelike
And Sniper vs Sniper is WW1 simulator
@@davisdf3064 engi vs engi is WW1 simulator
I was in constant fear for the first 5 classes, because literally all of them were weak against engineer, _even when he was attacking_
Seeing you hover over the dancing heavy and not taking the shot was heartwarming
There's something funny just watching all the classes have losing match ups to Engineer, before even getting to the Engineer class.
I really like class wars even tho some rounds are straight unfair with some matchups but still like playing because its hilarious sometimes and fun i love when its arena Just shit when you want to change weapons in arena
Medic is a force to be reckoned with on attack if they get momentum. Really hard to place on a tier list, I think the placement is accurate.
theres a weird discrepancy where on the defending engineer part it says they have a two star advantage but on the attacking engineer its says they have a 3 star disadvantage to defending engineer
Well clearly it’s just that it’s in a quantum superposition.
I've honestly had more luck playing attack spy than defense spy.
I will always rembember that time where I was playing class wars on dustbowl, it was the 3rd phase, the matchup was Engineers (blu team) vs Pyros (red team), I was on the red team and the blu team capped the 1st point and they were getting dangerously near to the 2nd point because they built a whole nest on the 1st point, I then used the !rtd command, and I got a Powerplay which allowed me to whipe the whole nest, long story short, we (red team) won, with a total of *SEVEN* powerplays in the same round. Truly astounding.
I played class wars for a few hours today, and there were about 8 people in the lobby discussing this video. Ultimately, it was decided that this video is a pretty great guide for players. I hadn't actually watched it yet so I didn't give my thoughts lol
The fact that the engineer portrait is smug makes it 10x better
Medic VS Engineer is actually a lot less unfair than you'd think, I was medic and won against engies on defence because we could just keep shooting and healing over and over
>"Defense Demo wins 99% of the time"
>Not Dominant
bro forgot engie exists
I've developed a fun little habit anytime I have to be against engies on defense; I start playing (JP) Bad Future Wacky Workbench, from Sonic CD. It cheers me up enough through the very stacked odds. (not taking RTD into effect of course)
This is very effective when the local rotation server is full and I'm stuck on the 24/7 Dustbowl server where we ended up wiping the first 2 rounds then get stuck on the 3rd area for 18 minutes because no one on the team wants to surrender.
i just noticed something....
You designed the class icons SUPER well, hell, its amazing to look at!
Attack icons are most obviously blue, but notice how they always look right? they do! every attack icon looks right.
Same for defense, obviously red, but they always look LEFT!
what about for even?
Well Great Blue did an amazing thing! they have a more soft coloring, not blue, or red! And get this... THEY LOOK FORWARD.
Im probably going too far into this but GOD DAMMIT i would be sad if graphic design wasn't my passion!
Oh and uh... the rest of the video is good. yeah.
This gamemode is basically a microcosm of why casual needs a class cap, but it’s literally the entire point of the game.
While i do understand that engineer is a powerhouse, i feel like you're overhyping him a bit much in offense.
Short circuit spam will literally only save you if the locker has a direct sightline to spawn exit to hurt people spawn camping, 'cause other than that, even those small delays of running to it to recharge wont help them get out if the defensive class is too oppressive.
Also, offensive engineer will at best control the 1st point but the second they have to go through a choke it's over. They're too slow to move and that's their weakness, they tend to require much more time than given. In regards to the classes that can precisely keep them in check: Any of the main 4 powerclasses unless it's some dumb stuff like stage 1 dustbowl and even then, heavies will still have a field day.
At the end, offensive engineer is as good as the set up time he gets. If he gets none, he can easily be kept contained, which is why i believe heavy to be the best class (other than defensive engine) to deal with them. They don't care about losing their projectiles, they have a lot of HP and will shred buildings (and engies), plus they can heal themselves as well.
In regards to defense engie: he's broken yes, but saying that the best pick against him is soldier is like...what about the short circuit literally deleting their primary??? If anything heavy's the one with the best chance to pierce through (like you said), at that point it comes down to skill.
If engies split up to protect all points they're fucked. If they focus defense on last then yes, nothing beats that.
On neutral is like i said. It comes down to how well they can be contained and some classes can absolutely do that.
...i really don't understand why you seem fixated on implying that soldier is the one with the highest chance when both him and demo suffer the same issue. Heavy is the one with that chance, the class that doesn't care about projectile deletion
The issue with Heavy is that Heavies can't outdamage sentries, especially since Heavies specifically DEAL LESS DAMAGE to sentries
Plus, they're slow, so they really can't push up easily
Soldier at the very least has the potential to even temporarily shut down a sentry, or the ability to straight up delete one faster than basically any other class
Yeah the Short Circuit counters this hard but it's still potentially possible... BARELY
Heavy on offense will struggle to even leave spawn since there are several sentries surrounding them from all angles that have effectively several thousands of Hp to chew through.
Basically imagine the heavies having to face other heavies that are standing outside spawn and effectively have more hp then them, as well as insane damage, healing, extra rocket damage, and support from the short circuit engineers firing at them dealing AOE
@@red5t653 soldier cant kill a sentry faster than a loch n load demo
@@titicaca. The Direct Hit exists (it's got a faster projectile and doesn't need to arc)
Also Soldiers have the Cow Mangler to disable sentries too
@@red5t653 loch n load has a faster firing rate, so if the sentry isnt across the entire map it can be killed faster
"enemies are pretty much always gonna be milked" sounds like the plot of a fanfiction lol
12:07 Hey, wait a minute. How is there a dispenser there when your entire team is nothing but soldiers?
RTD, my friend
The same force which lets people that just died revive themselves by pressing E, give people tons of HP in overheal, and overall make Halloween spells look balanced by comparison.
Simple.
*rolls the dice*
me: lets see what I get
*The Dice showing a D*
me: ooh D for what?
*DISPENSER*
@@danyakuarts50697 ERECT
At the beginning of the spy segment, instead of laughing, should have been the sound of spy dying.
I want to give spy the benefit of the doubt, he actually does stand an *even* chance against engineer for only one good reason: his sappers.
Specifically the red tape recorder is insanely well on class wars because it halts the growth of buildings and makes them much easier to destroy. As well as his revolver can usually 2-3 shot engineers at close range.
It’s an uphill battle for both, if the spy acknowledges he can’t rely on backstabs or headshots, he can do well against (at least) defense engineers.
Weapons I suggest, be the enforcer (surprisingly), stock revolver, your eternal reward, stock/spycicle, and the red tape recorder (normal sappers are useful too).
this video is SO well put together, the graphics, the transitions, the DETAIL, good stuff!
When you think about it, fighting an engie is like fighting a stationary amalgamation of a heavy, soldier, medic, and pyro if you include the short circuit.
On the soldier part, I think you should add The Disciplinary Action as a noteable support too. It boosts everyone's speed getting out of spawn, meaning they either don't need to rocket jump, or get boosted rocket jumps. It helps get past nasty chokepoints or sightlines, give burst movement, ETC. I find it's a really underrated tool overall, but especially in Class Wars.
one note about attacking spy, i have been in a few games where we won while getting spawncamped to shit because someone somehow backcapped and nobody on the defending team noticed in time
that’s funny, i can’t believe the frenchman’s best strategy is to surrender
I had a situation with being spawncamped by pyros and we were snipers. Since we did have limited options we returned to the Napoleontic war and just using machinas we made a line of snipers and one of ours was sacrificing himself to open the spawn doors, so we could make some progress. It worked ... somehow. We lost, but we had a lot of fun.
i remember getting a Sniper (Defense) vs Engineer (Offense) on Dustbowl last; everyone thought it was game over. What no one expected, is that the snipers hold last for over 30 minutes straight and win.
Defending engineers when a demo gets powerplay:
Then I pull the shot circuit
40:15 Well yes, defense is easier than an offense! Scout is literally the only exception there, being worse in defense.
A well thought out and detailed video anf list. Very enjoyable!
1:49 worst violation of the Geneva Convention I've ever seen
An older class wars server that doesn’t exist anymore had an engineer nerf in place that restricted them to mini sentries. It made the balance MUCH closer.
You're the only channel that I watch when they make tierlists, which is surprising to me (that you can make such a bad format actually good).