Hi Darren. Last week you were 60 miles from home, this week you’re 20 miles from home. Do I take it that next week you will be in my village! Plenty of hedges to date around here. I wonder what there is to discover in my own backyard? My own ditch though is unlikely to be historic 🥴 I do enjoy your occasional collaborations. I must check out Allotment Fox. 👏👏👍😀 PS I did half expect you to find Tweedy Outdoors supping wine and cooking in the hedge! 😂🍷
We could have done with Tweedy Outdoors to supply some wild cooking at the end of this, after I got us lost in the woods! You never know where I'm going to turn up next!
I remember when I did a 100 level paper at university on Old English, I was entranced by its beautiful lilting nature. Your friend’s pronunciation and tone was absolutely perfect. Thank you so much for this fantastic visit
I am so glad you clarified what "date" meant. I was worried, as here in The Colonies we have heard of all sorts of goings on in hedges and ditches! Brilliant video as usual
Absolutely loved that! I almost think I've started to take Mr Allotment Fox's expertise for granted when watching him on his own channel, and somehow transplanting him into a different format has really highlighted what a font of knowledge he is! I thought you made a thoroughly respectable effort there, Mr WC21, in both the tasks set you in this video: the species identification in the hedge (6 out of 8 really isn't bad!) and the Old English reading - particularly given the very demanding judges - in Messrs Fox and Roper (sounds like a tailoring company!). Hooper's Rule seems too elegantly simple to model the complexities of a natural process, I would have thought you'd have to take into account all sorts of other variables like the particular species involved (surely some spread more easily than others?), the local climate and so on... but fascinating to see here it actually gave results which were roughly in the right range as the documentary evidence. Thank you for the mention - that was indeed a fine looking ditch in which I'd very much enjoy drinking some wine - whether it had been cleansed or not! This really was a treat to watch, seeing these two worlds collide - thank you both for making this happen!
Thanks Tweedy! I'd buy a tweed jacket from a shop called Fox and Roper, definitely! Yes, Allotment Fox has impressive knowledge and it was really inspiring to "work" with him in this way. I went into this thinking that Hooper was mumbo jumbo, but I was quite impressed how the dating on the 2 sections came within a respectful distance of the charter date. As a rule of thumb, it was useful. I believe it can be finessed by using a "control" hedge where the date is known. Or something! Glad you enjoyed the fusion of our two worlds. I feel this video is pretty good and should hold interest for our mutual regular viewers and the more casual ones dipping in. We'll see how that plays out. You'd have been in ditch heaven on this route. That stretch of Grim's Ditch at the end was mighty fine. Crying out for a tarp and a bottle of fine wine, I'd say!
@@tweedyoutdoors I’m mortified by this expert nonsense. There is a history of local historians quietly amassing large amounts of data about our past without academic qualifications: Grinsell and Skinner come to mind, though I am not in their league I am ploughing the same sort of furrow-get out in the field and make observations!
@@AllotmentFox True to form, even when I think I am making a comment you might find agreeable you disagree! I would suggest you're a natural contrarian but I suspect you'd contest that too! 😂
Cheers Chris. I was very pleasantly surprised by how close Hooper’s Rule got us to the charter date. Not sure I’d rely on it if there wasn’t any other historical records - in this case the charter. I’ve subsequently learnt that the rule tends to over estimate the age of young hedges and underestimate old hedges. Which is helpful on this occasion.
Fantastic guest presenter, Tom has an incredible depth to his knowledge, the last few weeks have been a little bit like the Avengers of Amatuer Antiquarians Assembling....Excellent Sunday morning Entertainment once again Darren....well done my good man.
Love the hedge dating. Never found it to work up here in't north as most hedges are from enclosure. Also recall hearing a story that the late Prof Mick Aston planted a hedge around his home with as many species as he could find to confuse the people using that formula!
That's interesting Leslie. I'm going to give it a go when I get home and choose one carefully to avoid the enclosure hedges. I can think of some in the Lakes that display signs of pre-dating enclosure. But down in the Chilterns I was genuinely surprised how well it seemed to work and tie in with the charter date - give or take a century or two!
I'm patiently waiting for a video that runs over 20 or 25 minutes! I love nuts and bolts history discussions, so this could have gone on for triple the time. I would have happily watched it. I'm sure editing is an onerous job, but more please!
Yes it could. I've done a few that break into the 20 minutes plus duration and actually, next week's will. I like it too! We were actually out for over 7 hours making this one - that's a pace of about 1 mile per hour in terms of the ground covered. Request noted and thanks!
@@jmorin6620 I used to think RUclips videos needed to be as short as possible, but it's not the case. As long as the content is good and the videography good enough, there's no difference on average view rates than sub ten minute uploads.
Simon Roper reference gets extra brownie points! Even though you had half your pixels! So thats what it looks like down south. Nice hedges they have there and a lot more trees than Cumberland. Next week "How to Date an Enclave". Lilly the Pink pub! Cool! "I'll drink a drink a drink to Lilly the Pink a pink a pink!" The Marmalade. I am old....
I'm old too - I knew there was a song associated with that name, but could I remember it - no! There are some nice places - with a lot of history - down south and I always enjoy my visits. But good to return to the stunning beauty and peace of the north west too. We are extremely lucky to have such landscape diversity on this relatively small island.
I tried to date a hedge near me once. Turned out it was planted in 1987 after a storm blew a wall down. A neighbour told me, no counting woody species involved. Your video has led me to subscribe to your new friends channel and to reading about Hooper and the work he did preventing the Ministry of Agriculture removing hedges. A fascinating tidbit of our history I didn't know about. To quote an American TV series... one man can make a difference.
That’s great - thank you. I was dubious about it, but I was impressed how close it got us to the charter date. I think you’ll enjoy Tom’s channel. It’s one that I follow avidly. He’s excellent at what he does. Thinking of doing some videos about antiquarians who inspire me. Not an antiquarian, but I might do one on Hooper. The destruction of hedgerows has been annoying me since the age of around 7 when I saw it with my own eyes. My dear old Nan laid into the farmer. A vivid early memory.
That is a thought that occurs to me frequently, Ron. I was made up that the 2 hedgerow dating exercises got us so close to the charter date. I talk sometimes about touching history and this was certainly the case here. Cheers.
Yes sorry about that, but as I got to the end of a long edit, I felt it would have been stretching it a bit and I wasn't happy I had enough different footage. It's a really interesting story down there, so I will definitely come back to it as soon as I can.
Thanks Davie. I was skeptical about that Hooper equation, but allowing a margin of error, it worked pretty well with the charter date. I was impressed!
Hi Darren, what a great field trip this was, very enjoyable it had all^ that I liked about RUclips in it, well done to both of you!! I really don't think I would be able to identify many hedge species by their name, you did well to identify so many. It did set me thinking about how he evolved the rule and which hedges he knew were of a specific date. I wonder if these hedges still exist more than 50 years later, I hope so. I don't think I've heard the sound of old English either, well done for giving it a go, Actually with a bit more "medicinal compound" inside you, you could have almost been the allotment Fox ..... after all its most efficacious in every case!! Joking aside, The allotment Fox sounded well practised, what a skill to be able to read those old texts. Great collaboration!! All the best!! ^If only you could edit in an abandoned railway too😉😉🤣🤣🤣🤣
Thanks David! I was appalled by my inability to identify different hedgerow species. My list read, "another, Elder, another one, and another etc. Yes my understanding is that Hooper had a "control" hedge. What a concept that is! I was really surprised by how close we got to the charter date using this methodology. You're very kind about my old English reading. Allotment Fox is excellent with it, isn't he? Self taught too. Noted re railways. Will keep my eyes peeled next time I'm out!
Cheers Mark. Yes, the first hedge was a good illustration of what the Black Hedge could still look like if it hadn't been swallowed by woodland over the last few centuries. I understand there's a fine section where it breaks free of the woods and runs between fields for a stretch and is in much better condition. Sadly no public access. You can look at these wooded hills and think they've been like it forever, but they really haven't. Even on the late 19th century map I used, you can see the hedge only had woods on one side, where we were stood.
Hugely enjoyable! Now, I've spent most of my life either reading or being outdoors and still, the two of you make me feel like the most under-educated slob west of Constantinople. Counting species in a hedge in latin, good grief! I'd have identified two or three...
Thank you. My list read something like this: “don’t know, Elder, another, and another one”! Late in the day I realised why I’d come in 2 under Tom’s count. I didn’t include the actual trees in the hedge!
Allotment Fox's reading of old English is utterly outstanding ....I have subscribed to him ....I am a bit rebellious however...He can count his own Latin trees here🤣...I'll count the English ones. I saw a Birch
That dates back to Norman times. Amazing. These were meant to be enduring, but I wonder if the people who placed the hedge there would be surprised it has lasted so long!
I had that thought too. And even where the hedge has grown out due to the woods that have engulfed it, the ditch they dug over 1,100 years ago is still there. Cheers.
@@WC21UKProductionsLtd A particularly fetching hat / tweed combo here Mr WC21. It may well have been in a video before but I thought the lighting and the background here really showed it off very nicely. Particularly as we start to head into autumn, which is surely the season when tweed really shines!
After carrying out a hedge survey in Northamptonshire with Max Hooper. He would be more than pleased to know that his method is still being used 50 years later
Hi John, really nice to hear from someone who knew Max Hooper. I know he got some stick over this, but as a rule of thumb it does work - particularly with the older hedges, such as this one.
@@WC21UKProductionsLtd yes, there was a lot of criticism throughout the 80’s. But no one came up with a viable alternative. I still do ageing of hedges that I come across when out walking
Yes it’s great. Not very healthy next to the commercial plantation, but flourishing in its ancient state along the section after the pub. Nice 1,100 year old ditch too! Cheers.
Thank you! So many hedge based wordplays in the comments and jokes about hedging one’s bets in relationships! Glad you found it informative - I was very pleasantly surprised by how close the Hooper exercise got us to the date of the charter.
I certainly learned something from this one!! In deepest Somerset we’re (mostly) very protective of our hedges and the most effective way I’ve found to establish that it isn’t modern has been to check the 1st edition OS maps that are conveniently available online. For Somerset, this allows us to establish hedges that are pre 1850ish. Although I would guess a consideration of the number of species might form a basis for determining age, I had not heard of the equation you demonstrated and was well impressed at how it seemed to work. However, the virtue of the equation may be undermined by the rules of Somerset County Council which dictates that any replanting of hedges needs to comprise of some 5 or 6 specific species … so … a new hedge might well appear much older than it actually is 😮😮 How endemic should we consider such fraudulent behaviour in hedging to be ??? Back to the equation … I must confess the +30 gave me the giggles … where did that come from? … “Oh … let’s just round it up for luck!” … as if 30 years makes much difference to a 1000 year old hedge … or does it?
Cheers David. I was sceptical about the Hooper rule, but it didn’t seem to do a bad job here. We had the advantage of the 903 charter referring to a hedge. As long as we were in the right place - and we think we were - we knew that hedge dated back to at least 903. The fact the Hooper rule got us pretty close to that date on 2 sections of the hedge amazed me, to be honest! The plus 30 made me chuckle too. A few years ago, they did an exercise on Hooper on the Gower and I believe introduced a whole series of more complex weightings! I understand that research found the Hooper rule had a tendency to overestimate younger hedges and underestimate + 1,000 year old hedges - which helps with our 903 charter hedge here. Yes, nowadays I think there’s generally a tendency to stock a new hedge with a number of species - so it’s note going to work in future centuries!
Well , first you ask the Hedge if it would like to go out and have some coffee. Next you ask the hedge if it would like to go to a movie. Then you ask if the Hedge wants to go out to dinner and a movie. That’s how I date a Hedge. Cheers From California 😎
Scientology?? I certainly hope not. Did either of you bring your copy of "Dianetics"? Anyway, like I said on Mr. Fox's video I'm loving these collaborations with this community of creators. You'll have enough for a "Carry On" film soon enough.
I was wondering if Tom was going to introduce me to the other Tom at that point! Thanks and glad you enjoyed it. I like that description: “community of creators”. Feel an antiquarian podcast coming on. “Carry on Antiquarians” is the opportunity they missed back in the day. We must correct that!
"Scientology". I certainly hope not! Years ago, a chap named Hooper gave a talk to the Biology Society at Westfield College (London) about his theory regarding British hedges. He reckoned that a hedge gained a species every hundred years, and that he had studied hedges throughout the British Isles. I asked him how old the hedges were in North Shropshire, where I came from. To which he replied 'Ah. That's a bit of a problem, because when they planted hedges in Shropshire, they planted them using more than one species. And that's the one place in England where they did this.' Whether this still holds true or not, I don't know. But this is the first time since the early 70s that I have heard anybody using Hooper's formula, and in the field! I now live in West Wales where we have a lot of stone wall field boundaries in which trees and bushes now grow. Does Hooper's theorem apply to these types of hedges?
I was expecting Tom Cruise to turn up at that point! Great that you saw Hooper giving a talk on his theory. I think he passed away in the last few years. I’m asking myself the same question about walled field boundaries, having so many back at home. I do know there are distinct styles relating to the enclosures vs. older walls and in some areas, there are walled banks and so on. I’ve become intrigued by this since making the video and read a paper yesterday. It was about extensive application of the Hooper Rule on the Gower a few years back. They found that Hooper tended to underestimate the age on older hedges and overestimate it on younger. They introduced some weightings to address this.
Where was the blackthorn then? - those spindly unidentified things avoiding the zoom? One is sceptical. An old parish boundary hedge one knows at least 500 years old only has a couple of species. Does the formula only work for the overgrown variety perhaps?
Hi, There was blackthorn in the the first hedge (on the charter boundary - Tom referred to it as the Roe hedge.) Nothing to see in the first section of the Black Hedge proper because it's grown out - the hedge there has suffered as a result of the commercial forestry around it. The third stretch of hedge that we looked at after the pub had blackthorn in it as one of the 9 species. That's part of the Black Hedge course, as described in the boundary charter of 903. I understand there's another stretch of the Black Hedge that escapes the woods and it's apparently in best shape there. Sadly, no public access to that. We are satisfied that we found the course of the Black Hedge described in the charter and that the Roe hedge is also correct. I was doubtful about the Hooper equation too, however, in the two instances where we applied it to hedges on the charter boundary, it came back with a number that was within reasonable tolerance in relation to the 903 date. In this instance, we have the route described by a charter to pick up and follow. Hooper must be subject to exceptions and margins of error. I understand he acknowledged that. I'll need to do some more testing on it to see what that yields elsewhere. In this instance, though, the charter is the key to dating these hedges and ditches. Cheers.
@@WC21UKProductionsLtd Well yes, tho historical records of course provide the essential baseline for any proof. A well maintained hedge is much likelier to keep its essential integrity of variety than a neglected one, and so many A-S hedge boundaries seem to be in or near woodland, ie more liable to species invasion.
Hope you survived in one piece mate from the ordeal of the field trip! Thought he was going to give you detention at one point, or send you to the head teacher.!😂
We didn’t have one - just the charter. The fact that Hooper produced a date close to that was satisfying. We are confident the hedges were on the charter boundary of 903. Cheers.
I found the somewhat disjointed, ad-hoc nature of this week's episode just as entertaining as your normally more polished and scripted ones Darren. At times it felt like you were an excited student on a secondary school field trip and Tom was the knowledgeable yet sightly disheartened history teacher 😂
Thank you! I did have a plan, but it went out the window! I'm glad you liked it and I do try to keep it fresh and unpredictable - I feel this video is that! I think Tom would probably concur with your sentiments! Do check his channel out, I'm a great fan.
So what on earth has the number of species in a hedgerow got to do with its age? I googled Hooper’s Hedgerow Hypothesis and read a couple of articles - it sounds like utter BS to me - an untested hypothesis based an no actual evidence whatsoever. Why 30 yards? Why does one species to every hundred years? And if the number of species does relate to age, why is the relationship between years and species number linear? The number of species in any location will depend on many factors: soil type, water table, local geology, climate, elevation, latitude and local agricultural practices are all going to be way more important than age. There is absolutely no science in this, citizen or otherwise.
I just thought you told her that she had a great hair style, didn't have a thorny personality and that you don't want to up root her - you'll move for her... That should get you a date 😉
Sorry, I don’t understand that. I check all my videos on laptop, phone and TV. Thanks for bearing with it and hopefully you were able to put captions on. Cheers for the feedback.
Real science? Not using the scientific method because it is “citizen science”. Hmmmm… what is your control hedge which is known to be certain date or data of hedges with known date? Call me a skeptic because I am one. Another expert who is a big lad and speaks with a country accent. Who does that remind you of? How far is Wiltshire from this hedge? Does he knap flint by any chance, too? May you live in interesting times.
Thanks Andrew. I was skeptical about the Hooper equation, but in this instance we do have a date from that charter. So, allowing a margin of error and for the roughshod way we did it, the dates obtained were interesting, I thought. I think Tom will like that comparison!
Funnily enough I went off and did a “control” today; you are right, it bothered me. Not all hedges are early Medieval. I could only find one over 500 years old and tge majority where I was was 360 years, only three species: hawthorn, ash and elder.
@AllotmentFox - I’m going to try some at home. A lot will be enclosure hedges, but there are some pretty ancient looking ones in parts of the lakes and around the Howgills.
Well what an absolute joy! Truly. I am confident Darren's Old English was significantly better then mine!
Thanks Paul. I haven't been unfriended yet by any of my old English expert friends, but we'll have to see!
Two of my favourite presenters! Great video, and brilliant insights from AF as usual.
Cheers Hedley! I won’t ask you who your absolute favourite is!
@@WC21UKProductionsLtd Tom.
Hi Darren. Last week you were 60 miles from home, this week you’re 20 miles from home. Do I take it that next week you will be in my village!
Plenty of hedges to date around here. I wonder what there is to discover in my own backyard? My own ditch though is unlikely to be historic 🥴
I do enjoy your occasional collaborations. I must check out Allotment Fox. 👏👏👍😀
PS I did half expect you to find Tweedy Outdoors supping wine and cooking in the hedge! 😂🍷
We could have done with Tweedy Outdoors to supply some wild cooking at the end of this, after I got us lost in the woods! You never know where I'm going to turn up next!
I remember when I did a 100 level paper at university on Old English, I was entranced by its beautiful lilting nature. Your friend’s pronunciation and tone was absolutely perfect. Thank you so much for this fantastic visit
Thanks Jane. Tom has really mastered it, hasn't he? Even though I only understand the odd word here and there, it's just so good to listen to.
I am so glad you clarified what "date" meant. I was worried, as here in The Colonies we have heard of all sorts of goings on in hedges and ditches!
Brilliant video as usual
Thanks John! I thought I needed to clarify that - I've heard things too!
Absolutely loved that! I almost think I've started to take Mr Allotment Fox's expertise for granted when watching him on his own channel, and somehow transplanting him into a different format has really highlighted what a font of knowledge he is!
I thought you made a thoroughly respectable effort there, Mr WC21, in both the tasks set you in this video: the species identification in the hedge (6 out of 8 really isn't bad!) and the Old English reading - particularly given the very demanding judges - in Messrs Fox and Roper (sounds like a tailoring company!).
Hooper's Rule seems too elegantly simple to model the complexities of a natural process, I would have thought you'd have to take into account all sorts of other variables like the particular species involved (surely some spread more easily than others?), the local climate and so on... but fascinating to see here it actually gave results which were roughly in the right range as the documentary evidence.
Thank you for the mention - that was indeed a fine looking ditch in which I'd very much enjoy drinking some wine - whether it had been cleansed or not!
This really was a treat to watch, seeing these two worlds collide - thank you both for making this happen!
Thanks Tweedy! I'd buy a tweed jacket from a shop called Fox and Roper, definitely!
Yes, Allotment Fox has impressive knowledge and it was really inspiring to "work" with him in this way. I went into this thinking that Hooper was mumbo jumbo, but I was quite impressed how the dating on the 2 sections came within a respectful distance of the charter date. As a rule of thumb, it was useful. I believe it can be finessed by using a "control" hedge where the date is known. Or something!
Glad you enjoyed the fusion of our two worlds. I feel this video is pretty good and should hold interest for our mutual regular viewers and the more casual ones dipping in. We'll see how that plays out.
You'd have been in ditch heaven on this route. That stretch of Grim's Ditch at the end was mighty fine. Crying out for a tarp and a bottle of fine wine, I'd say!
@@tweedyoutdoors I’m mortified by this expert nonsense. There is a history of local historians quietly amassing large amounts of data about our past without academic qualifications: Grinsell and Skinner come to mind, though I am not in their league I am ploughing the same sort of furrow-get out in the field and make observations!
@@AllotmentFox True to form, even when I think I am making a comment you might find agreeable you disagree! I would suggest you're a natural contrarian but I suspect you'd contest that too! 😂
@@tweedyoutdoors Thank you for the nice compliments!
Another great one Darren. I never knew how to age hedges. I'd have botched the reading too. Loved it. Thanks for sharing.
Cheers Chris. I was very pleasantly surprised by how close Hooper’s Rule got us to the charter date. Not sure I’d rely on it if there wasn’t any other historical records - in this case the charter. I’ve subsequently learnt that the rule tends to over estimate the age of young hedges and underestimate old hedges. Which is helpful on this occasion.
Thanks to both, this brought a smile to my face! Also at 11:45 noticed the nice shout out to Simon Roper.
Cheers David - glad you enjoyed it. Great fun to make - it took over 7 hours and we only walked about 7 miles - that’s what filming does to a hike!
Fantastic guest presenter, Tom has an incredible depth to his knowledge, the last few weeks have been a little bit like the Avengers of Amatuer Antiquarians Assembling....Excellent Sunday morning Entertainment once again Darren....well done my good man.
Thank you and I agree - he's an inspiring amateur antiquarian. Almost not "amateur"! Glad you enjoyed it - I'm really pleased with this video.
Spandex!
@@AllotmentFox There're not many things I wouldn't do for attention on RUclips, but that is one of them! Actually, there are lots of things.
Love the hedge dating. Never found it to work up here in't north as most hedges are from enclosure. Also recall hearing a story that the late Prof Mick Aston planted a hedge around his home with as many species as he could find to confuse the people using that formula!
That's interesting Leslie. I'm going to give it a go when I get home and choose one carefully to avoid the enclosure hedges. I can think of some in the Lakes that display signs of pre-dating enclosure. But down in the Chilterns I was genuinely surprised how well it seemed to work and tie in with the charter date - give or take a century or two!
I'm patiently waiting for a video that runs over 20 or 25 minutes! I love nuts and bolts history discussions, so this could have gone on for triple the time. I would have happily watched it. I'm sure editing is an onerous job, but more please!
Yes it could. I've done a few that break into the 20 minutes plus duration and actually, next week's will. I like it too! We were actually out for over 7 hours making this one - that's a pace of about 1 mile per hour in terms of the ground covered. Request noted and thanks!
@@WC21UKProductionsLtd excellent! I think I've already watched the longer ones.
@@jmorin6620 I used to think RUclips videos needed to be as short as possible, but it's not the case. As long as the content is good and the videography good enough, there's no difference on average view rates than sub ten minute uploads.
Simon Roper reference gets extra brownie points! Even though you had half your pixels! So thats what it looks like down south. Nice hedges they have there and a lot more trees than Cumberland. Next week "How to Date an Enclave". Lilly the Pink pub! Cool! "I'll drink a drink a drink to Lilly the Pink a pink a pink!" The Marmalade. I am old....
Edit : The Scaffold. See i told you I was old...
I'm old too - I knew there was a song associated with that name, but could I remember it - no!
There are some nice places - with a lot of history - down south and I always enjoy my visits. But good to return to the stunning beauty and peace of the north west too. We are extremely lucky to have such landscape diversity on this relatively small island.
I tried to date a hedge near me once. Turned out it was planted in 1987 after a storm blew a wall down. A neighbour told me, no counting woody species involved.
Your video has led me to subscribe to your new friends channel and to reading about Hooper and the work he did preventing the Ministry of Agriculture removing hedges. A fascinating tidbit of our history I didn't know about. To quote an American TV series... one man can make a difference.
That’s great - thank you. I was dubious about it, but I was impressed how close it got us to the charter date.
I think you’ll enjoy Tom’s channel. It’s one that I follow avidly. He’s excellent at what he does.
Thinking of doing some videos about antiquarians who inspire me. Not an antiquarian, but I might do one on Hooper. The destruction of hedgerows has been annoying me since the age of around 7 when I saw it with my own eyes. My dear old Nan laid into the farmer. A vivid early memory.
To think that most people would walk past and not give this piece of history a second glance.
That is a thought that occurs to me frequently, Ron. I was made up that the 2 hedgerow dating exercises got us so close to the charter date. I talk sometimes about touching history and this was certainly the case here. Cheers.
Thanks! Wonderful collaboration! Very interesting method to date hedges. Beautiful countryside, as usual.
Thank you Liberty and Justice. I was so surprised by how close this dating technique got us to the date of the charter.
Look forward to part 2 as I am fascinated by these Celtic survivals quite late into the foundation of 'Engle-lond'
Yes sorry about that, but as I got to the end of a long edit, I felt it would have been stretching it a bit and I wasn't happy I had enough different footage. It's a really interesting story down there, so I will definitely come back to it as soon as I can.
Thanks
Thank you so much, Jane! Greatly appreciated.
An absolutely wonderful vid guys!. A thoroughly enjoyable watch.
Cheers Phil. I had fun making this with Tom and I'm glad that comes across!
These videos just get better and better..
Thank you so much Michael - hugely encouraging feedback. Cheers.
And that's the truth! So much hard work involved I imagine..and fun. But it shines through every time.
Bit surprised how close that date came to the charter. Top job.
Thanks. I was surprised too. A good rule of thumb methodology, I'd say.
Very informative video, loved it Mr Spratt!
Cheers Richard! Good to hear from you and hope all’s well!
I dated a hedge once. Nice at first, but once I got into it, the whole thing turned into a prickly, sticky situation. I got out fast.
Sometimes one just has to hedge one's bets with relationships!
hello again Darren and hello Tom, very interesting as always , i learned something new today , well done and thank you both 😊
Thanks Davie. I was skeptical about that Hooper equation, but allowing a margin of error, it worked pretty well with the charter date. I was impressed!
Wow! Subbed both channels, incredible work guys
Thanks @erho2967 and welcome!
Hi Darren, what a great field trip this was, very enjoyable it had all^ that I liked about RUclips in it, well done to both of you!!
I really don't think I would be able to identify many hedge species by their name, you did well to identify so many. It did set me thinking about how he evolved the rule and which hedges he knew were of a specific date. I wonder if these hedges still exist more than 50 years later, I hope so.
I don't think I've heard the sound of old English either, well done for giving it a go, Actually with a bit more "medicinal compound" inside you, you could have almost been the allotment Fox ..... after all its most efficacious in every case!! Joking aside, The allotment Fox sounded well practised, what a skill to be able to read those old texts.
Great collaboration!!
All the best!!
^If only you could edit in an abandoned railway too😉😉🤣🤣🤣🤣
Thanks David! I was appalled by my inability to identify different hedgerow species. My list read, "another, Elder, another one, and another etc.
Yes my understanding is that Hooper had a "control" hedge. What a concept that is! I was really surprised by how close we got to the charter date using this methodology.
You're very kind about my old English reading. Allotment Fox is excellent with it, isn't he? Self taught too.
Noted re railways. Will keep my eyes peeled next time I'm out!
Excellent hedgerow in the first instance. The Black Hedge was not quite so impressive, seeing as it grew out centuries ago. 😊❤😊
Cheers Mark. Yes, the first hedge was a good illustration of what the Black Hedge could still look like if it hadn't been swallowed by woodland over the last few centuries. I understand there's a fine section where it breaks free of the woods and runs between fields for a stretch and is in much better condition. Sadly no public access. You can look at these wooded hills and think they've been like it forever, but they really haven't. Even on the late 19th century map I used, you can see the hedge only had woods on one side, where we were stood.
Hugely enjoyable! Now, I've spent most of my life either reading or being outdoors and still, the two of you make me feel like the most under-educated slob west of Constantinople. Counting species in a hedge in latin, good grief! I'd have identified two or three...
Thank you. My list read something like this: “don’t know, Elder, another, and another one”! Late in the day I realised why I’d come in 2 under Tom’s count. I didn’t include the actual trees in the hedge!
Allotment Fox's reading of old English is utterly outstanding ....I have subscribed to him ....I am a bit rebellious however...He can count his own Latin trees here🤣...I'll count the English ones. I saw a Birch
Yes he is brilliant. Thank you for subbing to his channel - like most of us in this space, he deserves to be so much bigger.
That dates back to Norman times. Amazing. These were meant to be enduring, but I wonder if the people who placed the hedge there would be surprised it has lasted so long!
I had that thought too. And even where the hedge has grown out due to the woods that have engulfed it, the ditch they dug over 1,100 years ago is still there. Cheers.
You were lucky Alotment Fox didn’t ditch you! Maybe he was hedging his bets! Fascinating video.
@@Eric_L456 thanks Thomas. So many great hedge based puns in the comments this week!
Ooh first comment! (Haven't watch the video yet, but so excited about this one!)
Brilliant. A stake in the ground, eh? Or maybe in the hedge? I equally, am excited to receive your feedback!
@@WC21UKProductionsLtd A particularly fetching hat / tweed combo here Mr WC21. It may well have been in a video before but I thought the lighting and the background here really showed it off very nicely. Particularly as we start to head into autumn, which is surely the season when tweed really shines!
@@tweedyoutdoors thank you. As ever, quite accidental, but I agree - I looked great!
Agreed. Peak season for tweed now!
Fantastic I loved it .
Thank you very much!
Great stuff! Just to say we've also been planting native hedge since the 80's (10 species or so) - tradition but perhaps confusing
Ha! Mick Aston from Time Team apparently did that once - deliberately to confuse future archaeologists!
@@WC21UKProductionsLtd - Woodland Trust tree pack mix
After carrying out a hedge survey in Northamptonshire with Max Hooper. He would be more than pleased to know that his method is still being used 50 years later
Hi John, really nice to hear from someone who knew Max Hooper. I know he got some stick over this, but as a rule of thumb it does work - particularly with the older hedges, such as this one.
@@WC21UKProductionsLtd yes, there was a lot of criticism throughout the 80’s. But no one came up with a viable alternative. I still do ageing of hedges that I come across when out walking
👍 wonderful that it has survived
Yes it’s great. Not very healthy next to the commercial plantation, but flourishing in its ancient state along the section after the pub. Nice 1,100 year old ditch too! Cheers.
No beating around the bush on this one..!!
Brilliant. I had no idea there were so many hedge based wordplays out there!
I thought by the title this was for all of those singletons out there.😊
Another good informative video.
Thank you! So many hedge based wordplays in the comments and jokes about hedging one’s bets in relationships! Glad you found it informative - I was very pleasantly surprised by how close the Hooper exercise got us to the date of the charter.
I have slept in several hedges but I've never dated one.
That made me chuckle! Cheers.
I was taught to count species in the hedge to give age
I was dubious, but it got us close to the charter date. Really interesting. Thanks.
I certainly learned something from this one!!
In deepest Somerset we’re (mostly) very protective of our hedges and the most effective way I’ve found to establish that it isn’t modern has been to check the 1st edition OS maps that are conveniently available online. For Somerset, this allows us to establish hedges that are pre 1850ish.
Although I would guess a consideration of the number of species might form a basis for determining age, I had not heard of the equation you demonstrated and was well impressed at how it seemed to work. However, the virtue of the equation may be undermined by the rules of Somerset County Council which dictates that any replanting of hedges needs to comprise of some 5 or 6 specific species … so … a new hedge might well appear much older than it actually is 😮😮
How endemic should we consider such fraudulent behaviour in hedging to be ???
Back to the equation … I must confess the +30 gave me the giggles … where did that come from? … “Oh … let’s just round it up for luck!” … as if 30 years makes much difference to a 1000 year old hedge … or does it?
Cheers David.
I was sceptical about the Hooper rule, but it didn’t seem to do a bad job here. We had the advantage of the 903 charter referring to a hedge. As long as we were in the right place - and we think we were - we knew that hedge dated back to at least 903.
The fact the Hooper rule got us pretty close to that date on 2 sections of the hedge amazed me, to be honest!
The plus 30 made me chuckle too. A few years ago, they did an exercise on Hooper on the Gower and I believe introduced a whole series of more complex weightings!
I understand that research found the Hooper rule had a tendency to overestimate younger hedges and underestimate + 1,000 year old hedges - which helps with our 903 charter hedge here.
Yes, nowadays I think there’s generally a tendency to stock a new hedge with a number of species - so it’s note going to work in future centuries!
really good
Thank you very much. It was good fun to make too!
Well , first you ask the Hedge if it would like to go out and have some coffee. Next you ask the hedge if it would like to go to a movie. Then you ask if the Hedge wants to go out to dinner and a movie.
That’s how I date a Hedge.
Cheers From California 😎
Thanks! A good approach. Just be careful - they can be prickly, I am told!
Scientology?? I certainly hope not. Did either of you bring your copy of "Dianetics"? Anyway, like I said on Mr. Fox's video I'm loving these collaborations with this community of creators. You'll have enough for a "Carry On" film soon enough.
I was wondering if Tom was going to introduce me to the other Tom at that point!
Thanks and glad you enjoyed it. I like that description: “community of creators”. Feel an antiquarian podcast coming on. “Carry on Antiquarians” is the opportunity they missed back in the day. We must correct that!
Tom says he is Sid James and you are Kenneth Williams. Would you care to comment, sir?
@@JimBagby74 when I think of the other options Jim, I’ll settle for Kenneth Williams!
"Scientology". I certainly hope not! Years ago, a chap named Hooper gave a talk to the Biology Society at Westfield College (London) about his theory regarding British hedges. He reckoned that a hedge gained a species every hundred years, and that he had studied hedges throughout the British Isles. I asked him how old the hedges were in North Shropshire, where I came from. To which he replied 'Ah. That's a bit of a problem, because when they planted hedges in Shropshire, they planted them using more than one species. And that's the one place in England where they did this.'
Whether this still holds true or not, I don't know. But this is the first time since the early 70s that I have heard anybody using Hooper's formula, and in the field! I now live in West Wales where we have a lot of stone wall field boundaries in which trees and bushes now grow. Does Hooper's theorem apply to these types of hedges?
I was expecting Tom Cruise to turn up at that point!
Great that you saw Hooper giving a talk on his theory. I think he passed away in the last few years.
I’m asking myself the same question about walled field boundaries, having so many back at home. I do know there are distinct styles relating to the enclosures vs. older walls and in some areas, there are walled banks and so on.
I’ve become intrigued by this since making the video and read a paper yesterday. It was about extensive application of the Hooper Rule on the Gower a few years back. They found that Hooper tended to underestimate the age on older hedges and overestimate it on younger. They introduced some weightings to address this.
... Bring it flowers and a bag of mulch?
@@nowthenzen bet that works every time!
Where was the blackthorn then? - those spindly unidentified things avoiding the zoom?
One is sceptical. An old parish boundary hedge one knows at least 500 years old only has a couple of species. Does the formula only work for the overgrown variety perhaps?
Hi,
There was blackthorn in the the first hedge (on the charter boundary - Tom referred to it as the Roe hedge.) Nothing to see in the first section of the Black Hedge proper because it's grown out - the hedge there has suffered as a result of the commercial forestry around it. The third stretch of hedge that we looked at after the pub had blackthorn in it as one of the 9 species. That's part of the Black Hedge course, as described in the boundary charter of 903.
I understand there's another stretch of the Black Hedge that escapes the woods and it's apparently in best shape there. Sadly, no public access to that.
We are satisfied that we found the course of the Black Hedge described in the charter and that the Roe hedge is also correct. I was doubtful about the Hooper equation too, however, in the two instances where we applied it to hedges on the charter boundary, it came back with a number that was within reasonable tolerance in relation to the 903 date.
In this instance, we have the route described by a charter to pick up and follow. Hooper must be subject to exceptions and margins of error. I understand he acknowledged that. I'll need to do some more testing on it to see what that yields elsewhere. In this instance, though, the charter is the key to dating these hedges and ditches.
Cheers.
@@WC21UKProductionsLtd Thanks 21, one is impressed!
@@twanderson7756 cheers. It will be interesting to see what Hooper yields without a charter or any other historical record!
@@WC21UKProductionsLtd Well yes, tho historical records of course provide the essential baseline for any proof.
A well maintained hedge is much likelier to keep its essential integrity of variety than a neglected one, and so many A-S hedge boundaries seem to be in or near woodland, ie more liable to species invasion.
Hope you survived in one piece mate from the ordeal of the field trip! Thought he was going to give you detention at one point, or send you to the head teacher.!😂
Tom was very forgiving. I couldn't bring myself to reveal my list of hedgerow species: "don't know, Elder, another one, and another....."
I bought it
Yes you did! And one other person too. Expecting it to fly off the shelf now!
is half a pixel a pixie? asking for a friend. Why “Princes” Risborough?, salt paths, Droitwich… there’s a whole other story. Fascinating. Carry on.
I think it might be, Barry! Thought I saw a pixie shortly after leaving the pub actually! I do need to do some salt paths. Cheers.
The Black Prince owned the estate
i'm guessing citizen science results can depend on how tall the citizen is.
I like that! Banking it as my excuse. Cheers.
No control hedge mentioned. Is there one. Otherwise you will be pleased to know I remain silent on the subject sir.
We didn’t have one - just the charter. The fact that Hooper produced a date close to that was satisfying. We are confident the hedges were on the charter boundary of 903. Cheers.
I found the somewhat disjointed, ad-hoc nature of this week's episode just as entertaining as your normally more polished and scripted ones Darren.
At times it felt like you were an excited student on a secondary school field trip and Tom was the knowledgeable yet sightly disheartened history teacher 😂
Thank you! I did have a plan, but it went out the window! I'm glad you liked it and I do try to keep it fresh and unpredictable - I feel this video is that! I think Tom would probably concur with your sentiments! Do check his channel out, I'm a great fan.
Oops misread the title, I know Charles hugs trees, but go on a date with a hedge?
Ha! I wonder if he ever did? Cheers.
Sorry. I first read "How to hedge a date"!? 🙃
Brilliant! I’ve never had a video title generate so many excellent puns before.
They have difficulty on the dancefloor.
I've heard that a barn dance is the best option!
@@WC21UKProductionsLtd Not at the wedding I'm just recovering from - Glasgow wed Swansea. The rafters were shaking.
@@WC21UKProductionsLtd Not at the wedding I'm just recovering from - Glasgow wed Swansea with rugby players involved. The rafters were shaking.
So what on earth has the number of species in a hedgerow got to do with its age?
I googled Hooper’s Hedgerow Hypothesis and read a couple of articles - it sounds like utter BS to me - an untested hypothesis based an no actual evidence whatsoever.
Why 30 yards? Why does one species to every hundred years? And if the number of species does relate to age, why is the relationship between years and species number linear?
The number of species in any location will depend on many factors: soil type, water table, local geology, climate, elevation, latitude and local agricultural practices are all going to be way more important than age.
There is absolutely no science in this, citizen or otherwise.
Not a fan of Hooper then?!
For evidence of Hooper failing spectacularly, check out my video: Prehistoric Settlement on Video for First Time!
I just thought you told her that she had a great hair style, didn't have a thorny personality and that you don't want to up root her - you'll move for her... That should get you a date 😉
There have been some great hedge-based wordplays on this thread, but this one was just the thicket. Thank you!
To date a hedge u gotta wine n dine it 1st. 😂 tell her she's pretty
You got to be careful, though. They can get prickly.
A lot of very low sound making it difficult to follow.
Sorry, I don’t understand that. I check all my videos on laptop, phone and TV. Thanks for bearing with it and hopefully you were able to put captions on. Cheers for the feedback.
@@WC21UKProductionsLtd Ah I should have used captions, ill do that next time!
Just relax, try to be yourself...have a few amusing anecdotes on standby. Remember to pay attention to personal hygiene. You'll be fine.
Cheers! Good hedge-dating advice there!
Lidar anyone?
Good point. I will take a look. Cheers.
"How to date a hedge"? Try offering to buy dinner..🤗
Or buying it a glass of gin?
I'm happily single, but thanks anyway.
That prompted a "lol"!
I prefer dating women!
I reckon that's the best idea. Hedge your bets, so to speak!
Wear a Kilt.
I would love to. It’s on my list of things to do before I die! Cheers.
Real science? Not using the scientific method because it is “citizen science”. Hmmmm… what is your control hedge which is known to be certain date or data of hedges with known date? Call me a skeptic because I am one. Another expert who is a big lad and speaks with a country accent. Who does that remind you of? How far is Wiltshire from this hedge? Does he knap flint by any chance, too? May you live in interesting times.
Thanks Andrew. I was skeptical about the Hooper equation, but in this instance we do have a date from that charter. So, allowing a margin of error and for the roughshod way we did it, the dates obtained were interesting, I thought. I think Tom will like that comparison!
Funnily enough I went off and did a “control” today; you are right, it bothered me. Not all hedges are early Medieval. I could only find one over 500 years old and tge majority where I was was 360 years, only three species: hawthorn, ash and elder.
@AllotmentFox - I’m going to try some at home. A lot will be enclosure hedges, but there are some pretty ancient looking ones in parts of the lakes and around the Howgills.
Get yourself a haircut for a start.
Yes! That’s a must! Cheers.
Thanks
Thank you so much Phil.