Sophia Pang You mean what is "right to her." Many just see it as a tired old lady that just wanted to go home. The flag is a piece of cloth that killed nobody, and the flag means different things to different people, just like old glory does.
David Rook no what is right. Who cares if she was tired, this topic is tired, and I wish more reps would speak with this kind of conviction no matter the hour. Cheers to her for taking a stand. If you're going to knock her down for that then that's a shame.
Sophia Pang There is an old saying, "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater," and that is exactly what she did along with the rest. Being honest I don't think the flag would have remained even if voted on, but at least it would not help the haters as much. "In the end it only fuels the division and hatred even more, and nothing accomplished.
Tahuan Tinsuyo Yeah so courageous supporting a bill that is Politically Correct and will win her votes with all the gullible idiots. Real courage would be standing up for your history and opposing the insane double think which is used to justify removal of the flag (which flies next to a confederate war memorial not on top of the statehouse). Soon it will be a push to dig up and remove confederate bodies (o wait that is already happening in Memphis with Nathan Bedford Forrest) and the subsequent desecration of confederate war memorials around the country. The fact that so many people support this hollow appeal to the liberals shows how truly limp wristed this country is.
Vercingetorix butthole It is not only politically correct but a moral imperative something you haters don't understand. Just keep on living with your moral poison. Nobody cares about you haters anyway. Standing up for your "history'' now that is interesting. A history of racial oppression, slavery and exploitation of those in chains. And, you have the nerve to talk about the land of the free. You are a hypocrite and a pathetic excuse for a human.
Grokford How are Southern haters a repressed social group? I don't see any police murdering the KuKluxKlan members. Please explain to me how the Klan is an oppressed social group?
Tahuan Tinsuyo You have demonstrated how quite plainly. The majority of people who use this flag are not nor have they been a member of the KKK. There has been a prejudice extending past living memory against most aspects of these people's life. Everything from their accents to their hobbies is a reason for ridicule to make them seem backwards and a bane to the society. Racist and haters are just more words thrown at people for no reason.
Leslie D The flag is a piece of cloth, and represents many things other than just hate. Blacks need to learn to respect themselves and others before we can get rid of the racist in the world.
David Rook ok blacks need to respect themselves, but what about the black people who wake up every day and make an honest living and don't commit crimes. The ones who have integrity whether they have a real career or just work at a Home Depot. The ones who even though their kids might act stupid still get up every day and do the right thing. Why should they see a symbol of hate flying over a government building.
setondriveable It's considered a symbol of "Hate" only to the brain-dead Orwellian lemmings who gullibly gobble up any and all mindless drivel that their Big Brother government feeds them. To full-fledged human beings who use their brain, it's a part of history.
Finally, words of wisdom found in politics. A big thanks to Horne. For the rest of you that want to minimize the importance of the flag coming down, your hearts and thoughts are filled with as much hate as that flag represents. At least show a little grace!
Leslie D When do you want to go on the next witch hunt, or maybe we can go down to the local library and burn some books we hate. You are blaming a piece of cloth for what a crazy did, is just dumb and ignorant and embarrassing. You know the best way to bring people together is not from tired out politician that just wanted to go home so went on a pity rant, it would have been much better for the S.C. people to vote on it.
What an ignorant comment! No one is blaming a piece of cloth. The horrible incident allowed the conversation to arise once again, only this time its defense to keep it flying can no longer be tolerated. Did the people of SC vote to put it up in 1961? Have you listened to speeches that day as it was raised behind the veil of the Civil War centennial? It was loud and clear it was raised to rebuff desegregation and much prejudice and hate was spewed that day! No longer, the times have changed and we as a people say no more! We are moving forward - with or without you!
***** You've just proven your ignorance! LOL - The woman making this speech, Jenny Horne, is a REPUBLICAN! And it was a republican house that just voted to take it down! YOU LOSE. HATE LOSES!
Leslie D Im fine with the flag coming down, and I also don't support the flag, I am just don't really see much importance in it being brought down. People can still fly the flag if they want to so I don't see how one flag will change much when thousands can still fly...
Leslie D Republican will now be the big losers after bring the flag down. Most of all the Southerns States will not vote for them. Republicans just Fk themselves.
Indeed, the world IS watching. And it might just take a descendent of Jefferson Davis to pave the way to a future that is not bound by its past. This country needs more lawmakers willing to legislate from the heart, rather than towing the party line. Unfortunately, Rep. Horne's prospects for reelection may be slim if her own party turns against her.
John Stiles Have you ever thought she was tired and just wanted to go home, and never thought of the consequences of what she was saying? Oh, by the way, she is supposed to be representing her people, and if they did not agree with her, on this matter or any other matter, then it is their right to replace her. Being honest, I am getting kind of tired of people getting elected and forgetting who elected them once they get into office.
David Rook Oh she was tired, all right, but not for the reason you suggest, nor was she nearly as tired as her Black colleagues in that chamber last night.
John Stiles Here we go again, another that blames white society for the minorities ills. Sorry man, can't change the past, must live for the future, and hope people will realize it is just a piece of cloth, because when this starts, then pretty soon we will be back to burning books and witch hunts... "Basically this does nothing, and in fact, might only make division worse not better." And that is what I mean about consequences. In all reality, it would have been much better had the people of S.C. voted on it, because people would have been more accepting of the end result than some tired politician that just wanted to go home...
I am for a good old fashion book burnings and witch hunt. In fact we can use the books to burn the witches we catch. What a sad society we have become, when society starts blaming objects for societies ills.
David Rook To blame the flag for racial hatred would be stupid indeed. But to fly such a symbol of hatred - for that is what it's become - over a state building is unnecessary and offensive.
SenMysrana Native Americans were painting swastikas on rocks before Germany ever rose to power, should we go deface rocks also, because a lot those swastikas are on Federal property and are protected by our own government. It is a piece of cloth that means different things to different people, and not all of it is based on hate, because there is a lot of pride also associated with it. Blame the racist crazies, not objects.
David Rook Omg.... George Washington and Thomas Jefferson owned slaves..... :-O, throw out the constitution and erase them from the history books immediately!!!! STOP THE HATE!
Nine people killed, nine families immediately state to the alleged assailant their forgiveness for the massacre, many in Charleston of all races experience compassion for the families, many legislatures feel called to act on the issue of the Confederate Flag flying on the statehouse grounds, the legislative body reflect upon and listen to their own hearts and the hearts of many of their constituents, a bill is proposed passed in the SC senate, after a heated a debate in a majority Republican house a bill is passed, the bill is signed by a Republican governor the Confederate flag is taken down. Violence and massacre forgiven, compassion and understanding calls others to action and creates social ad political change. In my opinion this is democracy at it's best.
Now that's a Republican as I define one, and I wish to God we had millions more like her. I haven't teared up at a political speech in a long time. Regardless of your stance on this issue, if you have any decency in you at all, you cannot deny Ms. Horne's courage, a quality so sorely lacking in politics today.
Here I was thinking this country had liberty where you didnt have to tip toe around other people's feelings. The flag offends you? Tough shit. Move to Canada.
Flat out awesome. This woman is awesome, this speech is awesome. It's amazing how powerful clear truth and common sense can be. I'm all for rational debate, but it's another thing when people just purposefully obfuscate in order to not do the basic, decent thing that needs to be done. She laid out a clear and rational case while also demonstrating sincere emotion. Too bad most politicians suck so much that it's actually a novel thing when someone does it.
How can we gather all our confederate statues to protect them and preserve them in a museum for our Grandkids and so on to visit ? I wish she could lead the way helping us honor the fallen Confederate soldiers in our history so that people aren't offended by the souths flags or statues of our heritage. We are not racist people but they blame racism on history and we would like to be proactive in efforts to display it in a way its not offensive. I would like to think the souths heritage is Christianity first and foremost.
The flag didn't murder those people.. Dylan roof did...they should investigate where he got the drugs from and what led him to do such a thing....Sickining of how a politician throws such a horrible crying act to bring up the real agenda of racism, drugs and guns...this is awful
As a people we are fighting maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause.-William T. Thompson April 23, 1863 It's not heritage, it's about hate! Nothing else matters about what you THINK it means! It's about hate from the moment it was created!
As a matter of public law, the post-war German law codes prohibit the display of a swastika in any form or fashion, even if used satirically or as part of an anti-Nazi political statement. This law is generally applied to the specific five-by-five grid swastika design used during the Nazi era.
This is an emotion filled tirade from a woman who needs to increase her dosage of Prozac. Go ahead and take the flag down, it won't matter. Next year these same people will be crying over something else. There is nothing anyone can do to appease perpetually-offended, irrational people. Watching this crying tantrum makes me wonder if allowing women in politics was the right thing to do.
A few points I'd like to make: 1- The flag as a symbol of pride and honor has been taken away from us that liked it as such and has been given to racists. Do you really think a person who is a fan of history (and not a racist) is going to fly a confederate battle flag now? Even on Memorial Day or other appropriate holidays. You know there would be tension and possibly attacks. Who needs the hassle like that just for the love of history? 2- Yes the flag is a symbol, but it means different things to different people. We all need to realize that and use some of that tolerance I keep hearing people talk about regarding the flag and in other matters. Oh how much happier we all might be if that could happen. 3- I keep hearing about symbols of slavery and how they need to be banned. Yet it is estimated that there are currently as many as 30 million people in the world today living as slaves and we hear almost nothing about them. Hello activists, are you out there?
I'm going to assume you didn't understand that part of my post, so let me expand on the original thought. Some people are activists against a perceived symbol of racism stemming from slavery here in the U.S. that ended 150 years ago. Yet slavery (and indeed yes, racial slavery) still exists in the world today (July 2015) to the tune of roughly 30 million people and the media barely mentions it. Where are the activists on the current slavery issue? Where's the impassioned speech before the house about them? A campaign to ban something associated to those countries with slaves? Nope, nothing. Just the silence of hypocrisy. Finally, why do you need an excuse (not even going to get into the 30 million present day slaves part as an excuse, which seems to me to be a little sick) for the confederate battle flag? Can't you accept the fact that it means different things to different people?
I am impressed by her compassion, passion and empathy. The second greatest commandment is to love thy neighbor as thyself. Her remarks are emblazoned with that principle. Sure, taking it down won't eradicate hatred, but it is certainly a start in the right direction in improving race relations in South Carolina.
Round of applause Jenny Horne. What an impassioned speech. A flag that can be used as a symbol of hate on state property??? That flag should be removed. Let all who wants the flag kept fly it in their front yard or wherever, who cares.
I honestly dont care what happens cause I'm from Canada but I think the flag is more of a symbol of the people that died in the civil war and not racism/slavery. A ton of the people that fought didnt even have slaves. But I dont see why people care. It's just a flag.
HAHA @ Alien 1389 , he keeps deleting mine and James Pazzaglias' replies in this coments section. When he starts getting REKT he has to delete the posts. He should join the Republicon Presidential race, he would fit right in.
*The flags of the Southern Confederacy did not grace flagpoles in Manilla, Quezon City & Cebu Island in 1898 but curiously a version of the stars & stripes (the flag that currently flies over the Executive Mansion & atop the rotunda of the U.S. capitol building) flew over the conquered archipelago nation known as the Philippines when U.S. forces slaughtered one in four citizens (including mothers & their children) in the course of routing Filipino insurgents, "terrorists" & partisans during the Spanish-American War of 1898; the war that necessitated "The Philippine Archipelago Doctrine" that allowed the U.S. to buy the Philippines from Spain for twenty million dollars.* *Fr. World Future Fund: The Death Toll in the Philippines during the Spanish-American War of 1898: The overall cost in human lives of American actions in the Philippines was horrific. One scholar has concluded concerning the American occupation that "In the fifteen years that followed the defeat of the Spanish in Manila Bay in 1898, more Filipinos were killed by U.S. forces than by the Spanish in 300 years of colonization. Over 1.5 million died out of a total population of 6 million."*
Eight people were killed this morning when a Confederate flag walked into an Alabama shopping mall and started shooting. According to local reports, the flag entered Cherrywood Mall outside Huntsville armed with two AK-47 "assault weapons", a P 228 handgun and several grenades. It immediately proceeded to unload its ordinance on unsuspecting shoppers. In addition to those killed, 23 people were injured and are currently being treated in area emergency rooms. Several are in critical condition and not expected to survive. The flag’s motivations are uncertain at the moment. However, according to witnesses the flag did specifically target White people with Northern accents. “The flag chased us down the hallway screaming ‘Die, Yankees Die!’, says Justin Anderson, an aeronautical engineer originally from New Hampshire. “Luckily flags don’t move very fast, so my girlfriend and I managed to outrun it.” Lucy Patterson, a homemaker from New Jersey wasn’t so lucky. Both her legs were blown off when the flag lobbed a hand grenade at her feet. “It looked straight into my eyes, pulled the pin, and threw a deathball my way,” she says. “It was so cold-blooded. Almost as if it weren't human.” Shortly thereafter the flag turned the gun on itself, shooting itself in the pole several times. Rushed to Huntsville Beth-Israel Medical Center, it was pronounced dead on arrival. Confederate flags have increasingly been committing mass shootings in the South. Although retailers like Wal-Mart and Amazon have belatedly banned their sale, the existing stockpile of flags should be considered armed and extremely dangerous. “It’s a real tragedy,” says Bret Michaels, the CEO of retailer Wal-Mart, “We should have stopped selling Confederate flags sooner. Think of how many flag-on-human shootings we could have prevented.”
Ivan Gui She would have been better off convincing the rest to allow the citizens of S.C. to vote and remove the flag which would have brought more together over the issue, and taken some fire away from the racist.
Why not remove the American flag? It offends Native Americans who's ancestors were killed (over 100,000) and driven off their land (practically genocide)...slavery lasted for 70 years under the stars and stripes...its so convenient to forgive a symbol under these terrible acts but the confederate flag has to come down because some people from that time period still believed in slavery? How about the fact that American independence was lost when federal troops carried the american flag and forced the free states under the control of the federal government. These free states already won their independence in the revolutionary war and then they were forced to surrender their independence in 1865. If you don't believe in state independence then you are not an American.
Wouldn't letting the flag been displayed be comparable to letting the germans use nazi flags after 1945? Just asking. Still, i think it's weird this issue comes THAT long after the Civil War.
Ladies and gentlemen, I submit that what we see happening in the United States today is an apt illustration of why the Confederate flag was raised in the first place. What we see materializing before our very eyes is tyranny: tyranny over the freedom of expression, tyranny over the freedom of association, tyranny over the freedom of speech, and tyranny over the freedom of conscience. Advertisement In 1864, Confederate General Patrick Cleburne warned his fellow southerners of the historical consequences should the South lose their war for independence. He was truly a prophet. He said if the South lost, “It means that the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy. That our youth will be trained by Northern school teachers; will learn from Northern school books their version of the war; will be impressed by all of the influences of History and Education to regard our gallant debt as traitors and our maimed veterans as fit subjects for derision.” No truer words were ever spoken. Advertisement History revisionists flooded America’s public schools with Northern propaganda about the people who attempted to secede from the United States, characterizing them as racists, extremists, radicals, hatemongers, traitors, etc. You know, the same way that people in our federal government and news media attempt to characterize Christians, patriots, war veterans, constitutionalists, et al. today. Advertisement Folks, please understand that the only people in 1861 who believed that states did NOT have the right to secede were Abraham Lincoln and his radical Republicans. To say that southern states did not have the right to secede from the United States is to say that the thirteen colonies did not have the right to secede from Great Britain. One cannot be right and the other wrong. If one is right, both are right. How can we celebrate our Declaration of Independence in 1776 and then turn around and condemn the Declaration of Independence of the Confederacy in 1861? Talk about hypocrisy! In fact, southern states were not the only states that talked about secession. After the southern states seceded, the State of Maryland fully intended to join them. In September of 1861, Lincoln sent federal troops to the State capital and seized the legislature by force in order to prevent them from voting. Federal provost marshals stood guard at the polls and arrested Democrats and anyone else who believed in secession. A special furlough was granted to Maryland troops so they could go home and vote against secession. Judges who tried to inquire into the phony elections were arrested and thrown into military prisons. There is your great “emancipator,” folks. And before the South seceded, several northern states had also threatened secession. Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Rhode Island had threatened secession as far back as James Madison’s administration. In addition, the states of New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Delaware were threatening secession during the first half of the nineteenth century-long before the southern states even considered such a thing. People say constantly that Lincoln “saved” the Union. Lincoln didn’t save the Union; he subjugated the Union. There is a huge difference. A union that is not voluntary is not a union. Does a man have a right to force a woman to marry him or to force a woman to stay married to him? In the eyes of God, a union of husband and wife is far superior to a union of states. If God recognizes the right of husbands and wives to separate (and He does), to try and suggest that states do not have the right to lawfully (under Natural and divine right) separate is the most preposterous proposition imaginable. People say that Lincoln freed the slaves. Lincoln did NOT free a single slave. But what he did do was enslave free men. His so-called Emancipation Proclamation had NO AUTHORITY in the southern states, as they had separated into another country. Imagine a President today signing a proclamation to free folks in, say, China or Saudi Arabia. He would be laughed out of Washington. Lincoln had no authority over the Confederate States of America, and he knew it. Do you not find it interesting that Lincoln’s proclamation did NOT free a single slave in the United States, the country in which he DID have authority? That’s right. The Emancipation Proclamation deliberately ignored slavery in the North. Do you not realize that when Lincoln signed his proclamation, there were over 300,000 slaveholders who were fighting in the Union army? Check it out. One of those northern slaveholders was General (and later U.S. President) Ulysses S. Grant. In fact, he maintained possession of his slaves even after the War Between the States concluded. Recall that his counterpart, Confederate General Robert E. Lee, freed his slaves BEFORE hostilities between North and South ever broke out. When asked why he refused to free his slaves, Grant said: “Good help is hard to find these days.” The institution of slavery did not end until the 13th Amendment was ratified on December 6, 1865. Speaking of the 13th Amendment, did you know that Lincoln authored his own 13th Amendment? It is the only amendment to the Constitution ever proposed by a sitting U.S. President. Here is Lincoln’s proposed amendment: “No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give Congress the power to abolish or interfere within any state with the domestic institutions thereof, including that a person’s held to labor or service by laws of said State.” You read it right. Lincoln proposed an amendment to the U.S. Constitution PRESERVING the institution of slavery. This proposed amendment was written in March of 1861, a month BEFORE the shots were fired at Fort Sumter, South Carolina. The State of South Carolina was particularly incensed at the tariffs enacted in 1828 and 1832. The Tariff of 1828 was disdainfully called “The Tariff of Abominations” by the State of South Carolina. Accordingly, the South Carolina legislature declared that the tariffs of 1828 and 1832 were “unauthorized by the constitution of the United States.” Think, folks: why would the southern states secede from the Union over slavery when President Abraham Lincoln had offered an amendment to the Constitution guaranteeing the PRESERVATION of slavery? That makes no sense. If the issue was predominantly slavery, all the South needed to do was to go along with Lincoln; and his proposed 13th Amendment would have permanently preserved slavery among the southern (and northern) states. Does that sound like a body of people who were willing to lose hundreds of thousands of men on the battlefield over saving slavery? What nonsense! The problem was Lincoln wanted the southern states to pay the Union a 40% tariff on their exports. The South considered this outrageous and refused to pay. By the time hostilities broke out in 1861, the South was paying up to, and perhaps exceeding, 70% of the nation’s taxes. Before the war, the South was very prosperous and productive. And Washington, D.C., kept raising the taxes and tariffs on them. You know, the way Washington, D.C., keeps raising the taxes on prosperous American citizens today. This is much the same story of the way the colonies refused to pay the demanded tariffs of the British Crown-albeit the tariffs of the Crown were MUCH lower than those demanded by Lincoln. Lincoln’s proposed 13th Amendment was an attempt to entice the South into paying the tariffs by being willing to permanently ensconce the institution of slavery into the Constitution. AND THE SOUTH SAID NO! In addition, the Congressional Record of the United States forever obliterates the notion that the North fought the War Between the States over slavery. Read it for yourself. This resolution was passed unanimously in the U.S. Congress on July 23, 1861: “The War is waged by the government of the United States not in the spirit of conquest or subjugation, nor for the purpose of overthrowing or interfering with the rights or institutions of the states, but to defend and protect the Union.” What could be clearer? The U.S. Congress declared that the war against the South was NOT an attempt to overthrow or interfere with the “institutions” of the states, but to keep the Union intact (by force). The “institutions” implied most certainly included the institution of slavery. Hear it loudly and clearly: Lincoln’s war against the South had NOTHING to do with ending slavery-so said the U.S. Congress by unanimous resolution in 1861. Abraham Lincoln, himself, said it was NEVER his intention to end the institution of slavery. In a letter to Alexander Stevens, who later became the Vice President of the Confederacy, Lincoln wrote this: “Do the people of the South really entertain fears that a Republican administration would directly, or indirectly, interfere with their slaves, or with them, about their slaves? If they do, I wish to assure you, as once a friend, and still, I hope, not an enemy, that there is no cause for such fears. The South would be in no more danger in this respect than it was in the days of Washington.” Again, what could be clearer? Lincoln, himself, said the southern states had nothing to fear from him in regard to abolishing slavery. Hear Lincoln again: “If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it.” He also said: “I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so and I have no inclination to do so.” The idea that the Confederate flag (actually, there were five of them) stood for racism, bigotry, hatred, and slavery is just so much hogwash. In fact, if one truly wants to discover who the racist was in 1861, just read the words of Mr. Lincoln. On August 14, 1862, Abraham Lincoln invited a group of black people to the White House. In his address to them, he told them of his plans to colonize them all back to Africa. Listen to what he told these folks: “Why should the people of your race be colonized and where? Why should they leave this country? This is, perhaps, the first question for proper consideration. You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss; but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think. Your race suffers very greatly, many of them, by living among us, while ours suffers from your presence. In a word, we suffer on each side. If this is admitted, it affords a reason, at least, why we should be separated. You here are freemen, I suppose? Perhaps you have been long free, or all your lives. Your race is suffering, in my judgment, the greatest wrong inflicted on any people. But even when you cease to be slaves, you are yet far removed from being placed on an equality with the white race. The aspiration of men is to enjoy equality with the best when free, but on this broad continent not a single man of your race is made the equal of a single man of our race.” Did you hear what Lincoln said? He said that black people would NEVER be equal with white people-even if they all obtained their freedom from slavery. If that isn’t a racist statement, I’ve never heard one. Lincoln’s statement above is not isolated. In Charleston, Illinois, in 1858, Lincoln said in a speech: “I am not, nor have ever been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races. I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on social or political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white.” Ladies and gentlemen, in his own words, Abraham Lincoln declared himself to be a white supremacist. Why don’t our history books and news media tell the American people the truth about Lincoln and about the War Between the States? It’s simple: if people would study the meanings and history of the flag, symbols, and statues of the Confederacy and Confederate leaders, they might begin to awaken to the tyrannical policies of Washington, D.C., that precluded southern independence-policies that have only escalated since the defeat of the Confederacy-and they might have a notion to again resist. By the time Lincoln penned his Emancipation Proclamation, the war had been going on for two years without resolution. In fact, the North was losing the war. Even though the South was outmanned and out-equipped, the genius of the southern generals and fighting acumen of the southern men had put the northern armies on their heels. Many people in the North never saw the legitimacy of Lincoln’s war in the first place, and many of them actively campaigned against it. These people were affectionately called “Copperheads” by people in the South. I urge you to watch Ron Maxwell’s accurate depiction of those people in the North who favored the southern cause as depicted in his motion picture, “Copperhead.” For that matter, I consider his movie “Gods And Generals” to be the greatest “Civil War” movie ever made. It is the most accurate and fairest depiction of Confederate General Thomas Jonathan “Stonewall” Jackson ever produced. In my opinion, actor Stephen Lang should have received an Oscar for his performance as General Jackson. But, can you imagine? That’s another thing: the war fought from 1861 to 1865 was NOT a “civil war.” Civil war suggests two sides fighting for control of the same capital and country. The South didn’t want to take over Washington, D.C., no more than their forebears wanted to take over London. They wanted to separate from Washington, D.C., just as America’s Founding Fathers wanted to separate from Great Britain. The proper names for that war are either, “The War Between the States” or, “The War of Southern Independence,” or, more fittingly, “The War of Northern Aggression.” Had the South wanted to take over Washington, D.C., they could have done so with the very first battle of the “Civil War.” When Lincoln ordered federal troops to invade Virginia in the First Battle of Manassas (called the “First Battle
Am I the only one that finds it paradoxical to call a group of people "stupid racists" because they are a "republicunts with no common sense"? I'm libertarian so i'm not really offended by it (not that it would matter even if I was) but damn... Y'all do realize that you are on roof's side and supporting his cause when you hatefully attack the other side, right? The Republican party is much more diverse than it was a few years ago too. I'll be voting for Carson
For one thing, the secession was actually legal. The North fought the South only to preserve the Union. Robert E. Lee had a higher regard to African Americans than Lincoln did, in fact him and Stonewall Jackson both described slavery as a "moral and political evil". Seventy-five percent of white Southern families did not own slaves. Not all blacks in the South were slaves, about ten percent of blacks in the Upper South were free and made their living as laborers or small tradesmen. Less than two percent of blacks in the Deep South were free, but they tended to be rich and own slaves themselves. If there had been no Civil War, the South would have abolished slavery peaceably (as every other country in the Western Hemisphere did in the nineteenth century). And now we have racist people making this flag look bad and making everyone wanting to take the rebel flag down. I rather be historically accurate than politically correct.
How could you possibly know that the south would have abolished slavery themselves? Abe Lincoln won the presidency with absolutely no southern votes. They didn't want to give up their slaves and went to war for it which was treasonous since they were bound by the constitution.
Michael Vanbomel Southern secession in 1861 was better founded in law than the secession of the American colonies in 1776. Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee expected slavery to fade away naturally. Think of the state in which you live, a state you're proud to call home. What if you and many of your fellow Virginians, or Californians, or Texans-and your state legislatures-felt that for decades your state had been provoked and derided by the federal government? What if you-and your state legislatures-concluded that the federal government no longer served your state's interests? What if your state asserted that it existed as an independent entity before it joined the Union, that it had ceded its autonomy only in part, to promote the general welfare, and that when the federal government failed to serve the ends of the people of Virginia, or California, or Texas, these people, in their states, were entitled to rescind their voluntary cession of authority to the federal government because anything else would be submission to tyranny? What if your state suddenly, proudly, declared itself independent and reclaimed its inherent, sovereign states? South Carolina had done just that.
In one photo, Roof was wearing a Gold's Gym shirt while carrying a confederate flag. Should we blame and ban Gold's Gym, too? This is moronic, mob logic.
Wow reading some of the comments was very interesting Rep Jenny Horne did the job she was sent to do...represent what the majority of her district wanted ...meaning white/black alike...the way it suppose to work is for the people by the people...she never dishonored her heritage as a descendant of Jefferson Davis she specifically stated the debate is not about that it is not about heritage but it is what the people want....she did her damn job...and for the ignorant people speaking on her being a woman well let's lol at the world in general men run it and over all it has not been paradise. Before you call some other woman stupid first look at the one who gave you birth... Then the one you lay next to at night... and I just hope the one you might of helped create if you have daughters run as far away from you when they can because you set the tone on how she views herself...What a piss poor ass father that would devalue their child !!! Respond how you want what I know for sure about the internet only 1% are truly crazy the rest of you are hiding behind a keyboard and if I walk up to you and tapped you on the shoulder you would truly shit on yourself so respond """"Real Men"""""
*****-- Why do we elect representative's? If you ask for a public vote, we don't need them. Let's have public votes on everything and think of how things would be done and how long it would take.
***** This issue spans more than just the people of SC, and the general consensus of the people of the United States of America says TAKE THE CONFEDERATE FLAG DOWN, EVERYWHERE! If you support this flag as "heritage" then you are supporting a heritage of crimes against humanity, much like supporting the Nazi flag. Nothing about this flag says freedom for all people. The only freedom it symbolizes is the the freedom for the White man to impose slavery and racism.
renderlogic Go burn books. The South West is covered in evil swastikas painted by Native Americans way before Germany ever came to power... By the way, you should start demanding we take down the U.S. flag also, because that has done way more evil than the confederate flag could ever dream about doing.
stan hollander We should have more public votes, direct democracy. If they really wanted to they could make it so people could vote they could easily make voting secure from homes online, or by phone. They could use the facial recognition database that they have build up from drivers licences and ID's at the DMV and then use facial recognition on your smart phone or other device to identify who is actually voting. They keep us voting at ballots stations so only a small percentage gets to have a voice. Mostly seniors cause everyone else is working. We have elected officials, because once upon a time a trip to Washington took weeks on horse back/carriage even to the state capitol could take days back then. It took time to secure ballots and count them. What that has lead to today is corruption where politicians are bought by lobbyists, corporations and we have politicians who no longer represent the people, just puppets that go to where the money is. There is no excuse today to have politicians making every decision (especially controversial ones) that could easily voted on by people of the state. The only reason why they don't call for a public vote is because they know majority of the people that they are there to represent are not in agreement with them. The public can't be bought. So they force it upon us to appease *outside political correctness*. *outside political and social pressure*. *and the corporations that funnel the most money towards their next election* they listen to people who are not their constituents.
The right to display any imagery, regardless of how offensive the content may be, is a constitutional right under free speech. The more we try to regulate what one another think or feel the closer we get to true oppression. Forget the Democrats forget the Republicans, Constitutionalists all the way.
She’s definitely an emotional Marxist. And a great acting one at that. This is an academy award winning performance here. She should move to Africa with the blacks she so loves.
exposethemall45 Marxism is reserved for the Progressive Liberals. It's hard to swallow for most libretards that a group of conservatives did this, but fact is fact. It's all about control anyway. While the blacks in the US think this was some sort of victory, it's more of a MTV style buzz clip to satisfy the immediate outrage which is due to a psycho who murdered 9 people. The reality is that its a form of control via side tracking thought and avoidance of addressing real issues. I'll say this....what happened was fucked up but lets face it, it had nothing to do directly with this flag. Secondly, how often, in comparison to black on black violence, does this sort of thing happen in the US? Look up the numbers, you'll be shocked. It's not even remotely noticeable. There's actually more black on white violence then the other way around. Look it up. I don't make the numbers, but there available. This is about manipulation of your freedoms. Both parties are both responsible for the state of the Republic, and that state is F'D up.
Terrible decision. 150 years ago thousands of boys fought for that flag. As a t-shirt I recently seen in Gettysburg read: If you think this flag is about hate you need a history lesson.
Jee wiz. Jenny Horne shows more emotion over a piece of cloth waving in the wind than the children (actors) of Sharonda Coleman-Singleton (Charleston shooting hoax victim) showed a day after their mother's death. Don't believe me? Look up the vid of them getting interviewed in the gym with the daughter laughing as she talks about her dead mother. Let's cut the tearless crying BS. It's been done enough. If Jenny Horne really cared about stopping support for slavery or discrimination she'd be spending this passion on decrying the TPP instead of a part of American history. The TPP is going to give corporations who practice slavery, use child labor, and violate a variety of other human rights TODAY increased power to sue the US in international courts undermining national law (look up 'ISDS TPP clause'). I want to see someone crying over that. This is besides the fact that in historical, not narrow minded, context the Confederate flag has nothing to do with bashing blacks. It was pure economics that started the Civil War, slavery just happened to be what triggered it. Look up the Nullification Crisis and see how the Federal Government was ready to use military force against South Carolina over a disagreement on tariffs in 1833. The north and south were at odds in this period because the north wanted to industrialize the United States but the south wanted to expand a heavily agrarian base. The south depended on agriculture and the north attacked that in order to force the south to concentrate more on the manufacturing sector. A smart move economically in the long run. Go look up H.K. Edgerton. He's a black former NAACP, National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, president. He supports the Confederate flag because he uses logic. Jeez, I'm a yankee who says the Union was right and even I can see it. The hell is wrong with this country's educational system? So you go after that piece of cloth Jenny. Real good use of time there.
Muhammad Ali lit the Olympic flame...he's a racist. Why is that ok, but a flag that represents racism not? By the way, I haven't see this fact about Ali ever mentioned by the main stream media, including you C-SPAN or anyone in the black community that so hates anything that represents racism...Why is that? Clay v. United States - 403 U.S. 698 (1971) "The case of Clay is somewhat different, though analogous. While there are some bits of evidence showing conscientious objection to the Vietnam conflict, the basic objection was based on the teachings of his religion. He testified that he was "sincere in every bit of what the Holy Qur'an and the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad tell us,...." ".....and the outright, everyday oppressors and ENEMIES are the people as a whole, the WHITES of this nation."
I applaud her conviction to stand up for what is right
Sophia Pang You mean what is "right to her." Many just see it as a tired old lady that just wanted to go home. The flag is a piece of cloth that killed nobody, and the flag means different things to different people, just like old glory does.
David Rook no what is right. Who cares if she was tired, this topic is tired, and I wish more reps would speak with this kind of conviction no matter the hour. Cheers to her for taking a stand. If you're going to knock her down for that then that's a shame.
***** it was amazing
How? By taking down a part of history and violating the 1st amendment? Yea she is totally standing up for what is right * sarcasm*
Sophia Pang There is an old saying, "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater," and that is exactly what she did along with the rest. Being honest I don't think the flag would have remained even if voted on, but at least it would not help the haters as much. "In the end it only fuels the division and hatred even more, and nothing accomplished.
You are witnessing the purest form of courage. Bravo State Representative Jenny Horne.
Tahuan Tinsuyo Yeah so courageous supporting a bill that is Politically Correct and will win her votes with all the gullible idiots.
Real courage would be standing up for your history and opposing the insane double think which is used to justify removal of the flag (which flies next to a confederate war memorial not on top of the statehouse). Soon it will be a push to dig up and remove confederate bodies (o wait that is already happening in Memphis with Nathan Bedford Forrest) and the subsequent desecration of confederate war memorials around the country.
The fact that so many people support this hollow appeal to the liberals shows how truly limp wristed this country is.
Vercingetorix butthole It is not only politically correct but a moral imperative something you haters don't understand. Just keep on living with your moral poison. Nobody cares about you haters anyway.
Standing up for your "history'' now that is interesting. A history of racial oppression, slavery and exploitation of those in chains. And, you have the nerve to talk about the land of the free. You are a hypocrite and a pathetic excuse for a human.
Tahuan Tinsuyo what moral imperative requires you to publicly bash an already repressed social group?I would honestly love to hear about it.
Grokford How are Southern haters a repressed social group? I don't see any police murdering the KuKluxKlan members. Please explain to me how the Klan is an oppressed social group?
Tahuan Tinsuyo You have demonstrated how quite plainly. The majority of people who use this flag are not nor have they been a member of the KKK.
There has been a prejudice extending past living memory against most aspects of these people's life. Everything from their accents to their hobbies is a reason for ridicule to make them seem backwards and a bane to the society. Racist and haters are just more words thrown at people for no reason.
How about swift charges against the shooter? Flag didn't do shiz
Wow - swift charges were accomplished! Flag didn't do - flag represents. HATE LOSES!
Leslie D The flag is a piece of cloth, and represents many things other than just hate. Blacks need to learn to respect themselves and others before we can get rid of the racist in the world.
David Rook ok blacks need to respect themselves, but what about the black people who wake up every day and make an honest living and don't commit crimes. The ones who have integrity whether they have a real career or just work at a Home Depot. The ones who even though their kids might act stupid still get up every day and do the right thing. Why should they see a symbol of hate flying over a government building.
setondriveable
It's considered a symbol of "Hate" only to the brain-dead Orwellian lemmings who gullibly gobble up any and all mindless drivel that their Big Brother government feeds them.
To full-fledged human beings who use their brain, it's a part of history.
Finally, words of wisdom found in politics. A big thanks to Horne. For the rest of you that want to minimize the importance of the flag coming down, your hearts and thoughts are filled with as much hate as that flag represents. At least show a little grace!
Leslie D When do you want to go on the next witch hunt, or maybe we can go down to the local library and burn some books we hate. You are blaming a piece of cloth for what a crazy did, is just dumb and ignorant and embarrassing. You know the best way to bring people together is not from tired out politician that just wanted to go home so went on a pity rant, it would have been much better for the S.C. people to vote on it.
What an ignorant comment! No one is blaming a piece of cloth. The horrible incident allowed the conversation to arise once again, only this time its defense to keep it flying can no longer be tolerated. Did the people of SC vote to put it up in 1961? Have you listened to speeches that day as it was raised behind the veil of the Civil War centennial? It was loud and clear it was raised to rebuff desegregation and much prejudice and hate was spewed that day! No longer, the times have changed and we as a people say no more! We are moving forward - with or without you!
***** You've just proven your ignorance! LOL - The woman making this speech, Jenny Horne, is a REPUBLICAN! And it was a republican house that just voted to take it down! YOU LOSE. HATE LOSES!
Leslie D Im fine with the flag coming down, and I also don't support the flag, I am just don't really see much importance in it being brought down. People can still fly the flag if they want to so I don't see how one flag will change much when thousands can still fly...
Leslie D Republican will now be the big losers after bring the flag down. Most of all the Southerns States will not vote for them. Republicans just Fk themselves.
As a 42 year old black man living in the Midwest, this speech brought me to tears. Absolutely an amazing speech.
Indeed, the world IS watching. And it might just take a descendent of Jefferson Davis to pave the way to a future that is not bound by its past. This country needs more lawmakers willing to legislate from the heart, rather than towing the party line. Unfortunately, Rep. Horne's prospects for reelection may be slim if her own party turns against her.
John Stiles Have you ever thought she was tired and just wanted to go home, and never thought of the consequences of what she was saying? Oh, by the way, she is supposed to be representing her people, and if they did not agree with her, on this matter or any other matter, then it is their right to replace her. Being honest, I am getting kind of tired of people getting elected and forgetting who elected them once they get into office.
David Rook Oh she was tired, all right, but not for the reason you suggest, nor was she nearly as tired as her Black colleagues in that chamber last night.
John Stiles Here we go again, another that blames white society for the minorities ills. Sorry man, can't change the past, must live for the future, and hope people will realize it is just a piece of cloth, because when this starts, then pretty soon we will be back to burning books and witch hunts... "Basically this does nothing, and in fact, might only make division worse not better." And that is what I mean about consequences. In all reality, it would have been much better had the people of S.C. voted on it, because people would have been more accepting of the end result than some tired politician that just wanted to go home...
I am for a good old fashion book burnings and witch hunt. In fact we can use the books to burn the witches we catch. What a sad society we have become, when society starts blaming objects for societies ills.
David Rook To blame the flag for racial hatred would be stupid indeed. But to fly such a symbol of hatred - for that is what it's become - over a state building is unnecessary and offensive.
SenMysrana Native Americans were painting swastikas on rocks before Germany ever rose to power, should we go deface rocks also, because a lot those swastikas are on Federal property and are protected by our own government. It is a piece of cloth that means different things to different people, and not all of it is based on hate, because there is a lot of pride also associated with it. Blame the racist crazies, not objects.
SenMysrana The US flag symbolized injustice and genocide, we should remove it from all public buildings. It is the MORAL thing to do!
SenMysrana The US flag symbolized injustice and genocide, we should remove it from all public buildings. It is the MORAL thing to do!
David Rook Omg.... George Washington and Thomas Jefferson owned slaves..... :-O, throw out the constitution and erase them from the history books immediately!!!! STOP THE HATE!
So Sad, removing the Confederate Flag. Salute to the South!!! The Flag maybe gone, but we still know the South is the Confederate States,
And this woman is insane.... geez!!
Fuckin turncoats!
Nine people killed, nine families immediately state to the alleged assailant their forgiveness for the massacre, many in Charleston of all races experience compassion for the families, many legislatures feel called to act on the issue of the Confederate Flag flying on the statehouse grounds, the legislative body reflect upon and listen to their own hearts and the hearts of many of their constituents, a bill is proposed passed in the SC senate, after a heated a debate in a majority Republican house a bill is passed, the bill is signed by a Republican governor the Confederate flag is taken down. Violence and massacre forgiven, compassion and understanding calls others to action and creates social ad political change. In my opinion this is democracy at it's best.
Now that's a Republican as I define one, and I wish to God we had millions more like her. I haven't teared up at a political speech in a long time. Regardless of your stance on this issue, if you have any decency in you at all, you cannot deny Ms. Horne's courage, a quality so sorely lacking in politics today.
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Here I was thinking this country had liberty where you didnt have to tip toe around other people's feelings. The flag offends you? Tough shit. Move to Canada.
Or those who support the flag could move to Canada and take their flag with them.
6blanks What if YOU are the one who should leave but you dont know it?
Down with the Confederacists.
Now thats a Republican
A murder , is a murder with or without a flag , I don't see the point
Flat out awesome. This woman is awesome, this speech is awesome. It's amazing how powerful clear truth and common sense can be. I'm all for rational debate, but it's another thing when people just purposefully obfuscate in order to not do the basic, decent thing that needs to be done. She laid out a clear and rational case while also demonstrating sincere emotion. Too bad most politicians suck so much that it's actually a novel thing when someone does it.
How can we gather all our confederate statues to protect them and preserve them in a museum for our Grandkids and so on to visit ? I wish she could lead the way helping us honor the fallen Confederate soldiers in our history so that people aren't offended by the souths flags or statues of our heritage. We are not racist people but they blame racism on history and we would like to be proactive in efforts to display it in a way its not offensive. I would like to think the souths heritage is Christianity first and foremost.
Just what is so bad about this flag?
*Mrs. Horne: thank you. Finally, a Republican with a mind (and heart) of her own.*
The flag didn't murder those people.. Dylan roof did...they should investigate where he got the drugs from and what led him to do such a thing....Sickining of how a politician throws such a horrible crying act to bring up the real agenda of racism, drugs and guns...this is awful
As a people we are fighting maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause.-William T. Thompson April 23, 1863
It's not heritage, it's about hate! Nothing else matters about what you THINK it means! It's about hate from the moment it was created!
As a matter of public law, the post-war German law codes prohibit the display of a swastika in any form or fashion, even if used satirically or as part of an anti-Nazi political statement. This law is generally applied to the specific five-by-five grid swastika design used during the Nazi era.
This is an emotion filled tirade from a woman who needs to increase her dosage of Prozac. Go ahead and take the flag down, it won't matter. Next year these same people will be crying over something else. There is nothing anyone can do to appease perpetually-offended, irrational people. Watching this crying tantrum makes me wonder if allowing women in politics was the right thing to do.
A few points I'd like to make:
1- The flag as a symbol of pride and honor has been taken away from us that liked it as such and has been given to racists.
Do you really think a person who is a fan of history (and not a racist) is going to fly a confederate battle flag now? Even on Memorial Day or other appropriate holidays. You know there would be tension and possibly attacks. Who needs the hassle like that just for the love of history?
2- Yes the flag is a symbol, but it means different things to different people. We all need to realize that and use some of that tolerance I keep hearing people talk about regarding the flag and in other matters. Oh how much happier we all might be if that could happen.
3- I keep hearing about symbols of slavery and how they need to be banned. Yet it is estimated that there are currently as many as 30 million people in the world today living as slaves and we hear almost nothing about them. Hello activists, are you out there?
I'm going to assume you didn't understand that part of my post, so let me expand on the original thought.
Some people are activists against a perceived symbol of racism stemming from slavery here in the U.S. that ended 150 years ago. Yet slavery (and indeed yes, racial slavery) still exists in the world today (July 2015) to the tune of roughly 30 million people and the media barely mentions it. Where are the activists on the current slavery issue? Where's the impassioned speech before the house about them? A campaign to ban something associated to those countries with slaves? Nope, nothing. Just the silence of hypocrisy.
Finally, why do you need an excuse (not even going to get into the 30 million present day slaves part as an excuse, which seems to me to be a little sick) for the confederate battle flag? Can't you accept the fact that it means different things to different people?
I am impressed by her compassion, passion and empathy. The second greatest commandment is to love thy neighbor as thyself. Her remarks are emblazoned with that principle. Sure, taking it down won't eradicate hatred, but it is certainly a start in the right direction in improving race relations in South Carolina.
Enfin, une politicienne qui n'a pas donné dans la langue de bois.
Wow, this is a southern white lady speaking from the heart.. respect
Round of applause Jenny Horne. What an impassioned speech. A flag that can be used as a symbol of hate on state property??? That flag should be removed. Let all who wants the flag kept fly it in their front yard or wherever, who cares.
Webster's released info today that when they make their next dictionary update a picture of Horne's face will be beside "grandstanding"
I honestly dont care what happens cause I'm from Canada but I think the flag is more of a symbol of the people that died in the civil war and not racism/slavery. A ton of the people that fought didnt even have slaves. But I dont see why people care. It's just a flag.
Been a rough couple of weeks for the Reich Wingers.
Please rage on, I thrive on it.
HAHA @ Alien 1389 , he keeps deleting mine and James Pazzaglias' replies in this coments section. When he starts getting REKT he has to delete the posts. He should join the Republicon Presidential race, he would fit right in.
wonderful speech, I am weaping when delevered this mssage, Care and caring thanks so much
*The flags of the Southern Confederacy did not grace flagpoles in Manilla, Quezon City & Cebu Island in 1898 but curiously a version of the stars & stripes (the flag that currently flies over the Executive Mansion & atop the rotunda of the U.S. capitol building) flew over the conquered archipelago nation known as the Philippines when U.S. forces slaughtered one in four citizens (including mothers & their children) in the course of routing Filipino insurgents, "terrorists" & partisans during the Spanish-American War of 1898; the war that necessitated "The Philippine Archipelago Doctrine" that allowed the U.S. to buy the Philippines from Spain for twenty million dollars.*
*Fr. World Future Fund: The Death Toll in the Philippines during the Spanish-American War of 1898: The overall cost in human lives of American actions in the Philippines was horrific. One scholar has concluded concerning the American occupation that "In the fifteen years that followed the defeat of the Spanish in Manila Bay in 1898, more Filipinos were killed by U.S. forces than by the Spanish in 300 years of colonization. Over 1.5 million died out of a total population of 6 million."*
If you don't have any compassion for the plea by Rep. Jenny Horne, you offer nothing of value to the advancement of humanity.
Eight people were killed this morning when a Confederate flag walked into an Alabama shopping mall and started shooting.
According to local reports, the flag entered Cherrywood Mall outside Huntsville armed with two AK-47 "assault weapons", a P 228 handgun and several grenades. It immediately proceeded to unload its ordinance on unsuspecting shoppers.
In addition to those killed, 23 people were injured and are currently being treated in area emergency rooms. Several are in critical condition and not expected to survive.
The flag’s motivations are uncertain at the moment. However, according to witnesses the flag did specifically target White people with Northern accents.
“The flag chased us down the hallway screaming ‘Die, Yankees Die!’, says Justin Anderson, an aeronautical engineer originally from New Hampshire. “Luckily flags don’t move very fast, so my girlfriend and I managed to outrun it.”
Lucy Patterson, a homemaker from New Jersey wasn’t so lucky. Both her legs were blown off when the flag lobbed a hand grenade at her feet.
“It looked straight into my eyes, pulled the pin, and threw a deathball my way,” she says. “It was so cold-blooded. Almost as if it weren't human.”
Shortly thereafter the flag turned the gun on itself, shooting itself in the pole several times. Rushed to Huntsville Beth-Israel Medical Center, it was pronounced dead on arrival.
Confederate flags have increasingly been committing mass shootings in the South. Although retailers like Wal-Mart and Amazon have belatedly banned their sale, the existing stockpile of flags should be considered armed and extremely dangerous.
“It’s a real tragedy,” says Bret Michaels, the CEO of retailer Wal-Mart, “We should have stopped selling Confederate flags sooner. Think of how many flag-on-human shootings we could have prevented.”
Just extraordinary--this is one of the most honest moments I've ever witnessed in American politics. A great day for S. Carolinians, and for America!
Applause to Jenny!! Racists are everywhere and forever. but good ppl are more... bad ppl will still do bad things no matter if the flag is up or down.
Ivan Gui She would have been better off convincing the rest to allow the citizens of S.C. to vote and remove the flag which would have brought more together over the issue, and taken some fire away from the racist.
David Rook Naw.. democracy is a foriegn concept to these dipshit liberals. They love statism. In fact they worship it.
brian6576 taking down the flag actuallt honors the wishes of Dylan roof,ironic
Why not remove the American flag? It offends Native Americans who's ancestors were killed (over 100,000) and driven off their land (practically genocide)...slavery lasted for 70 years under the stars and stripes...its so convenient to forgive a symbol under these terrible acts but the confederate flag has to come down because some people from that time period still believed in slavery? How about the fact that American independence was lost when federal troops carried the american flag and forced the free states under the control of the federal government. These free states already won their independence in the revolutionary war and then they were forced to surrender their independence in 1865. If you don't believe in state independence then you are not an American.
Wouldn't letting the flag been displayed be comparable to letting the germans use nazi flags after 1945?
Just asking.
Still, i think it's weird this issue comes THAT long after the Civil War.
+Bender B. Rodriguez Anyway, forgot the US allows a NAZI PARTY to manifest.
Ladies and gentlemen, I submit that what we see happening in the United States today is an apt illustration of why the Confederate flag was raised in the first place. What we see materializing before our very eyes is tyranny: tyranny over the freedom of expression, tyranny over the freedom of association, tyranny over the freedom of speech, and tyranny over the freedom of conscience. Advertisement In 1864, Confederate General Patrick Cleburne warned his fellow southerners of the historical consequences should the South lose their war for independence. He was truly a prophet. He said if the South lost, “It means that the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy. That our youth will be trained by Northern school teachers; will learn from Northern school books their version of the war; will be impressed by all of the influences of History and Education to regard our gallant debt as traitors and our maimed veterans as fit subjects for derision.” No truer words were ever spoken. Advertisement History revisionists flooded America’s public schools with Northern propaganda about the people who attempted to secede from the United States, characterizing them as racists, extremists, radicals, hatemongers, traitors, etc. You know, the same way that people in our federal government and news media attempt to characterize Christians, patriots, war veterans, constitutionalists, et al. today. Advertisement Folks, please understand that the only people in 1861 who believed that states did NOT have the right to secede were Abraham Lincoln and his radical Republicans. To say that southern states did not have the right to secede from the United States is to say that the thirteen colonies did not have the right to secede from Great Britain. One cannot be right and the other wrong. If one is right, both are right. How can we celebrate our Declaration of Independence in 1776 and then turn around and condemn the Declaration of Independence of the Confederacy in 1861? Talk about hypocrisy! In fact, southern states were not the only states that talked about secession. After the southern states seceded, the State of Maryland fully intended to join them. In September of 1861, Lincoln sent federal troops to the State capital and seized the legislature by force in order to prevent them from voting. Federal provost marshals stood guard at the polls and arrested Democrats and anyone else who believed in secession. A special furlough was granted to Maryland troops so they could go home and vote against secession. Judges who tried to inquire into the phony elections were arrested and thrown into military prisons. There is your great “emancipator,” folks. And before the South seceded, several northern states had also threatened secession. Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Rhode Island had threatened secession as far back as James Madison’s administration. In addition, the states of New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Delaware were threatening secession during the first half of the nineteenth century-long before the southern states even considered such a thing. People say constantly that Lincoln “saved” the Union. Lincoln didn’t save the Union; he subjugated the Union. There is a huge difference. A union that is not voluntary is not a union. Does a man have a right to force a woman to marry him or to force a woman to stay married to him? In the eyes of God, a union of husband and wife is far superior to a union of states. If God recognizes the right of husbands and wives to separate (and He does), to try and suggest that states do not have the right to lawfully (under Natural and divine right) separate is the most preposterous proposition imaginable. People say that Lincoln freed the slaves. Lincoln did NOT free a single slave. But what he did do was enslave free men. His so-called Emancipation Proclamation had NO AUTHORITY in the southern states, as they had separated into another country. Imagine a President today signing a proclamation to free folks in, say, China or Saudi Arabia. He would be laughed out of Washington. Lincoln had no authority over the Confederate States of America, and he knew it. Do you not find it interesting that Lincoln’s proclamation did NOT free a single slave in the United States, the country in which he DID have authority? That’s right. The Emancipation Proclamation deliberately ignored slavery in the North. Do you not realize that when Lincoln signed his proclamation, there were over 300,000 slaveholders who were fighting in the Union army? Check it out. One of those northern slaveholders was General (and later U.S. President) Ulysses S. Grant. In fact, he maintained possession of his slaves even after the War Between the States concluded. Recall that his counterpart, Confederate General Robert E. Lee, freed his slaves BEFORE hostilities between North and South ever broke out. When asked why he refused to free his slaves, Grant said: “Good help is hard to find these days.” The institution of slavery did not end until the 13th Amendment was ratified on December 6, 1865. Speaking of the 13th Amendment, did you know that Lincoln authored his own 13th Amendment? It is the only amendment to the Constitution ever proposed by a sitting U.S. President. Here is Lincoln’s proposed amendment: “No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give Congress the power to abolish or interfere within any state with the domestic institutions thereof, including that a person’s held to labor or service by laws of said State.” You read it right. Lincoln proposed an amendment to the U.S. Constitution PRESERVING the institution of slavery. This proposed amendment was written in March of 1861, a month BEFORE the shots were fired at Fort Sumter, South Carolina. The State of South Carolina was particularly incensed at the tariffs enacted in 1828 and 1832. The Tariff of 1828 was disdainfully called “The Tariff of Abominations” by the State of South Carolina. Accordingly, the South Carolina legislature declared that the tariffs of 1828 and 1832 were “unauthorized by the constitution of the United States.” Think, folks: why would the southern states secede from the Union over slavery when President Abraham Lincoln had offered an amendment to the Constitution guaranteeing the PRESERVATION of slavery? That makes no sense. If the issue was predominantly slavery, all the South needed to do was to go along with Lincoln; and his proposed 13th Amendment would have permanently preserved slavery among the southern (and northern) states. Does that sound like a body of people who were willing to lose hundreds of thousands of men on the battlefield over saving slavery? What nonsense! The problem was Lincoln wanted the southern states to pay the Union a 40% tariff on their exports. The South considered this outrageous and refused to pay. By the time hostilities broke out in 1861, the South was paying up to, and perhaps exceeding, 70% of the nation’s taxes. Before the war, the South was very prosperous and productive. And Washington, D.C., kept raising the taxes and tariffs on them. You know, the way Washington, D.C., keeps raising the taxes on prosperous American citizens today. This is much the same story of the way the colonies refused to pay the demanded tariffs of the British Crown-albeit the tariffs of the Crown were MUCH lower than those demanded by Lincoln. Lincoln’s proposed 13th Amendment was an attempt to entice the South into paying the tariffs by being willing to permanently ensconce the institution of slavery into the Constitution. AND THE SOUTH SAID NO! In addition, the Congressional Record of the United States forever obliterates the notion that the North fought the War Between the States over slavery. Read it for yourself. This resolution was passed unanimously in the U.S. Congress on July 23, 1861: “The War is waged by the government of the United States not in the spirit of conquest or subjugation, nor for the purpose of overthrowing or interfering with the rights or institutions of the states, but to defend and protect the Union.” What could be clearer? The U.S. Congress declared that the war against the South was NOT an attempt to overthrow or interfere with the “institutions” of the states, but to keep the Union intact (by force). The “institutions” implied most certainly included the institution of slavery. Hear it loudly and clearly: Lincoln’s war against the South had NOTHING to do with ending slavery-so said the U.S. Congress by unanimous resolution in 1861. Abraham Lincoln, himself, said it was NEVER his intention to end the institution of slavery. In a letter to Alexander Stevens, who later became the Vice President of the Confederacy, Lincoln wrote this: “Do the people of the South really entertain fears that a Republican administration would directly, or indirectly, interfere with their slaves, or with them, about their slaves? If they do, I wish to assure you, as once a friend, and still, I hope, not an enemy, that there is no cause for such fears. The South would be in no more danger in this respect than it was in the days of Washington.” Again, what could be clearer? Lincoln, himself, said the southern states had nothing to fear from him in regard to abolishing slavery. Hear Lincoln again: “If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it.” He also said: “I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so and I have no inclination to do so.” The idea that the Confederate flag (actually, there were five of them) stood for racism, bigotry, hatred, and slavery is just so much hogwash. In fact, if one truly wants to discover who the racist was in 1861, just read the words of Mr. Lincoln. On August 14, 1862, Abraham Lincoln invited a group of black people to the White House. In his address to them, he told them of his plans to colonize them all back to Africa. Listen to what he told these folks: “Why should the people of your race be colonized and where? Why should they leave this country? This is, perhaps, the first question for proper consideration. You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss; but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think. Your race suffers very greatly, many of them, by living among us, while ours suffers from your presence. In a word, we suffer on each side. If this is admitted, it affords a reason, at least, why we should be separated. You here are freemen, I suppose? Perhaps you have been long free, or all your lives. Your race is suffering, in my judgment, the greatest wrong inflicted on any people. But even when you cease to be slaves, you are yet far removed from being placed on an equality with the white race. The aspiration of men is to enjoy equality with the best when free, but on this broad continent not a single man of your race is made the equal of a single man of our race.” Did you hear what Lincoln said? He said that black people would NEVER be equal with white people-even if they all obtained their freedom from slavery. If that isn’t a racist statement, I’ve never heard one. Lincoln’s statement above is not isolated. In Charleston, Illinois, in 1858, Lincoln said in a speech: “I am not, nor have ever been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races. I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on social or political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white.” Ladies and gentlemen, in his own words, Abraham Lincoln declared himself to be a white supremacist. Why don’t our history books and news media tell the American people the truth about Lincoln and about the War Between the States? It’s simple: if people would study the meanings and history of the flag, symbols, and statues of the Confederacy and Confederate leaders, they might begin to awaken to the tyrannical policies of Washington, D.C., that precluded southern independence-policies that have only escalated since the defeat of the Confederacy-and they might have a notion to again resist. By the time Lincoln penned his Emancipation Proclamation, the war had been going on for two years without resolution. In fact, the North was losing the war. Even though the South was outmanned and out-equipped, the genius of the southern generals and fighting acumen of the southern men had put the northern armies on their heels. Many people in the North never saw the legitimacy of Lincoln’s war in the first place, and many of them actively campaigned against it. These people were affectionately called “Copperheads” by people in the South. I urge you to watch Ron Maxwell’s accurate depiction of those people in the North who favored the southern cause as depicted in his motion picture, “Copperhead.” For that matter, I consider his movie “Gods And Generals” to be the greatest “Civil War” movie ever made. It is the most accurate and fairest depiction of Confederate General Thomas Jonathan “Stonewall” Jackson ever produced. In my opinion, actor Stephen Lang should have received an Oscar for his performance as General Jackson. But, can you imagine? That’s another thing: the war fought from 1861 to 1865 was NOT a “civil war.” Civil war suggests two sides fighting for control of the same capital and country. The South didn’t want to take over Washington, D.C., no more than their forebears wanted to take over London. They wanted to separate from Washington, D.C., just as America’s Founding Fathers wanted to separate from Great Britain. The proper names for that war are either, “The War Between the States” or, “The War of Southern Independence,” or, more fittingly, “The War of Northern Aggression.” Had the South wanted to take over Washington, D.C., they could have done so with the very first battle of the “Civil War.” When Lincoln ordered federal troops to invade Virginia in the First Battle of Manassas (called the “First Battle
Am I the only one that finds it paradoxical to call a group of people "stupid racists" because they are a "republicunts with no common sense"? I'm libertarian so i'm not really offended by it (not that it would matter even if I was) but damn... Y'all do realize that you are on roof's side and supporting his cause when you hatefully attack the other side, right? The Republican party is much more diverse than it was a few years ago too. I'll be voting for Carson
powerful #godwins #lovewins
For one thing, the secession was actually legal. The North fought the South only to preserve the Union. Robert E. Lee had a higher regard to African Americans than Lincoln did, in fact him and Stonewall Jackson both described slavery as a "moral and political evil". Seventy-five percent of white Southern families did not own slaves. Not all blacks in the South were slaves, about ten percent of blacks in the Upper South were free and made their living as laborers or small tradesmen. Less than two percent of blacks in the Deep South were free, but they tended to be rich and own slaves themselves. If there had been no Civil War, the South would have abolished slavery peaceably (as every other country in the Western Hemisphere did in the nineteenth century). And now we have racist people making this flag look bad and making everyone wanting to take the rebel flag down. I rather be historically accurate than politically correct.
How could you possibly know that the south would have abolished slavery themselves? Abe Lincoln won the presidency with absolutely no southern votes. They didn't want to give up their slaves and went to war for it which was treasonous since they were bound by the constitution.
Michael Vanbomel Southern secession in 1861 was better founded in law than the secession of the American colonies in 1776. Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee expected slavery to fade away naturally. Think of the state in which you live, a state you're proud to call home. What if you and many of your fellow Virginians, or Californians, or Texans-and your state legislatures-felt that for decades your state had been provoked and derided by the federal government? What if you-and your state legislatures-concluded that the federal government no longer served your state's interests? What if your state asserted that it existed as an independent entity before it joined the Union, that it had ceded its autonomy only in part, to promote the general welfare, and that when the federal government failed to serve the ends of the people of Virginia, or California, or Texas, these people, in their states, were entitled to rescind their voluntary cession of authority to the federal government because anything else would be submission to tyranny? What if your state suddenly, proudly, declared itself independent and reclaimed its inherent, sovereign states? South Carolina had done just that.
In one photo, Roof was wearing a Gold's Gym shirt while carrying a confederate flag. Should we blame and ban Gold's Gym, too? This is moronic, mob logic.
She looks like a prank.
Complete appeal to the heart and not to the mind. Completely unpersuasive in my opinion.
tell recently I didn't think about the Confederate flag. or even know it was still flying in a few state capitals. both sides are really overreacting
horne also is for gay marriage ,don't know why she is a republican,wait,I know cause this district is republican
Wow reading some of the comments was very interesting
Rep Jenny Horne did the job she was sent to do...represent what the majority of her district wanted ...meaning white/black alike...the way it suppose to work is for the people by the people...she never dishonored her heritage as a descendant of Jefferson Davis she specifically stated the debate is not about that it is not about heritage but it is what the people want....she did her damn job...and for the ignorant people speaking on her being a woman well let's lol at the world in general men run it and over all it has not been paradise.
Before you call some other woman stupid first look at the one who gave you birth...
Then the one you lay next to at night...
and I just hope the one you might of helped create if you have daughters run as far away from you when they can because you set the tone on how she views herself...What a piss poor ass father that would devalue their child !!!
Respond how you want what I know for sure about the internet only 1% are truly crazy the rest of you are hiding behind a keyboard and if I walk up to you and tapped you on the shoulder you would truly shit on yourself so respond """"Real Men"""""
Let the people of SC vote to decide if it's heritage or hate the flag stands for, instead of imposing your will and beliefs upon them.
*****-- Why do we elect representative's? If you ask for a public vote, we don't need them. Let's have public votes on everything and think of how things would be done and how long it would take.
***** This issue spans more than just the people of SC, and the general consensus of the people of the United States of America says TAKE THE CONFEDERATE FLAG DOWN, EVERYWHERE! If you support this flag as "heritage" then you are supporting a heritage of crimes against humanity, much like supporting the Nazi flag. Nothing about this flag says freedom for all people. The only freedom it symbolizes is the the freedom for the White man to impose slavery and racism.
renderlogic Go burn books. The South West is covered in evil swastikas painted by Native Americans way before Germany ever came to power... By the way, you should start demanding we take down the U.S. flag also, because that has done way more evil than the confederate flag could ever dream about doing.
stan hollander We should have more public votes, direct democracy. If they really wanted to they could make it so people could vote they could easily make voting secure from homes online, or by phone. They could use the facial recognition database that they have build up from drivers licences and ID's at the DMV and then use facial recognition on your smart phone or other device to identify who is actually voting. They keep us voting at ballots stations so only a small percentage gets to have a voice. Mostly seniors cause everyone else is working.
We have elected officials, because once upon a time a trip to Washington took weeks on horse back/carriage even to the state capitol could take days back then. It took time to secure ballots and count them. What that has lead to today is corruption where politicians are bought by lobbyists, corporations and we have politicians who no longer represent the people, just puppets that go to where the money is.
There is no excuse today to have politicians making every decision (especially controversial ones) that could easily voted on by people of the state. The only reason why they don't call for a public vote is because they know majority of the people that they are there to represent are not in agreement with them. The public can't be bought. So they force it upon us to appease *outside political correctness*. *outside political and social pressure*. *and the corporations that funnel the most money towards their next election* they listen to people who are not their constituents.
stan hollander That might be the most retarted thing I've read in any comment on this topic
The right to display any imagery, regardless of how offensive the content may be, is a constitutional right under free speech. The more we try to regulate what one another think or feel the closer we get to true oppression. Forget the Democrats forget the Republicans, Constitutionalists all the way.
Flying my REBEL flag high in the sky today!! I would love to see anyone try and remove it!
fuckyougoogle no one wants to remove your confederate flag just the one that fly over the state capital idiot.
fuckyougoogle Your descendants will regret you.
She’s definitely an emotional Marxist. And a great acting one at that. This is an academy award winning performance here. She should move to Africa with the blacks she so loves.
Fucking racist bitch
BADAZZTHANG you have serious problems. You do realize unless your native American we're all immigrants
BADAZZTHANG pig
exposethemall45 Marxism is reserved for the Progressive Liberals. It's hard to swallow for most libretards that a group of conservatives did this, but fact is fact. It's all about control anyway. While the blacks in the US think this was some sort of victory, it's more of a MTV style buzz clip to satisfy the immediate outrage which is due to a psycho who murdered 9 people. The reality is that its a form of control via side tracking thought and avoidance of addressing real issues. I'll say this....what happened was fucked up but lets face it, it had nothing to do directly with this flag. Secondly, how often, in comparison to black on black violence, does this sort of thing happen in the US? Look up the numbers, you'll be shocked. It's not even remotely noticeable. There's actually more black on white violence then the other way around. Look it up. I don't make the numbers, but there available. This is about manipulation of your freedoms. Both parties are both responsible for the state of the Republic, and that state is F'D up.
Bravo Madame, du Québec...
Terrible decision. 150 years ago thousands of boys fought for that flag. As a t-shirt I recently seen in Gettysburg read: If you think this flag is about hate you need a history lesson.
"Someone used this symbol of hate, to slay 9 innocent people" Really.....Reallllllllyyy sorry just got to that part.
Too damm bad. If you knew your History, you would n't be asking for this request. Maybe even getting to know the Constitution.
Jee wiz. Jenny Horne shows more emotion over a piece of cloth waving in the wind than the children (actors) of Sharonda Coleman-Singleton (Charleston shooting hoax victim) showed a day after their mother's death. Don't believe me? Look up the vid of them getting interviewed in the gym with the daughter laughing as she talks about her dead mother.
Let's cut the tearless crying BS. It's been done enough. If Jenny Horne really cared about stopping support for slavery or discrimination she'd be spending this passion on decrying the TPP instead of a part of American history. The TPP is going to give corporations who practice slavery, use child labor, and violate a variety of other human rights TODAY increased power to sue the US in international courts undermining national law (look up 'ISDS TPP clause'). I want to see someone crying over that.
This is besides the fact that in historical, not narrow minded, context the Confederate flag has nothing to do with bashing blacks. It was pure economics that started the Civil War, slavery just happened to be what triggered it. Look up the Nullification Crisis and see how the Federal Government was ready to use military force against South Carolina over a disagreement on tariffs in 1833. The north and south were at odds in this period because the north wanted to industrialize the United States but the south wanted to expand a heavily agrarian base. The south depended on agriculture and the north attacked that in order to force the south to concentrate more on the manufacturing sector. A smart move economically in the long run.
Go look up H.K. Edgerton. He's a black former NAACP, National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, president. He supports the Confederate flag because he uses logic. Jeez, I'm a yankee who says the Union was right and even I can see it. The hell is wrong with this country's educational system?
So you go after that piece of cloth Jenny. Real good use of time there.
We pay people for this ?????
Muhammad Ali lit the Olympic flame...he's a racist. Why is that ok, but a flag that represents racism not? By the way, I haven't see this fact about Ali ever mentioned by the main stream media, including you C-SPAN or anyone in the black community that so hates anything that represents racism...Why is that?
Clay v. United States - 403 U.S. 698 (1971)
"The case of Clay is somewhat different, though analogous. While there are some bits of evidence showing conscientious objection to the Vietnam conflict, the basic objection was based on the teachings of his religion. He testified that he was "sincere in every bit of what the Holy Qur'an and the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad tell us,...."
".....and the outright, everyday oppressors and ENEMIES are the people as a whole, the WHITES of this nation."
I'm not too sure this is genuine.. She's over reacting 100%
Grow up