If I'm losing to Jordan, and I'm a coach or whatever...even though it is likely that I would still lose no matter what...if there is ONE guy that I thought might possibly be able to pull it off, it would be Kobe. It would not be Lebron, or Kareem, or Timmy, or Steph, or KD.
I’ve watched Kareem play. He had a automatic shot. He had a um would say a bag of tricks. I do think Kareem is better than Timmy however Timmy also came up big in fourth quarters during the finals.
Facts! Kobe’s the closest thing. Nobody else is even close to breaching into that stratosphere, let alone be in the conversation. The real debate should be between Mike and Kobe. No other cases.
hes BEEN getting disrespected even during his career. hows kobe get only 1 mvp??? i remember talking to someone in 2008 and they were like nope lebron way better than kobe. lebron nut riding is reallly real
Not really. Its Krazy how after he passed he was raised! I don't worship the dead. My God is of the living. Kobe has always been overrated b/c of his alignment and copying MJ. He's nowhere near MJ nd not better than Lebron
@@Atlas365247Even if Kobe did copy Michael, he still had to execute things himself. Mike wasn't gonna forge Kobe's legacy for him. Kobe still did it on his own. lbj has no business being mentioned with them.
I have Magic after MJ,I do have Kobe ahead of Bron tho,but I'm not gonna Hate on his longevity just bcuz I don't like his antics..He spends $1M on his body to be able to still be relevant at 40..2days SOFTASS NBA is a contributing factor as well...
@@TheRealMindCrimewait u taking Kobe who avg 22 points on 38 percent shooting and 67 percent shooting from the Free throw line in game 7s over LeBron who avg 35 on 48 percent shooting and 77 percent from the Free throw line ok sounds smart to me
You are wrong, there are lot of people who are real basketball fans and who are sick and tired of fake narratives and lies fabricated to push LeDiddy into imaginary nonexistant debate. Kob was only man who deserves to be compared to MJ player wise and what he accomplished, despite being pushed and diminished awards wise because Colorado incident
For real. This fake narrative has gotten out of hand when Kobe passed away. I'm 101% sure that this bs will not exist if Kobe'w still alive. He will not let the media get away with this stupidity.
I swear Kobe's the Bruce Wayne/ Batman of basketball. He learned as much as he could from the greats of the past, his peers, and even the younger guys towards the end of his career. Pure greatness!
The bit where Reggie talked about Kobe asking questions about how to do such and such in order to improve his game is the reason why i believe Kobe (and MJ) is miles ahead and better than Lebron. Its that willingness to learn the game. Lebron has been active for 20+ years and every aspect of his game hadn't changed at all....the charging down the lane with the head down...the inability to create a shot or make a shot etc etc. I dont wanna go on because its already been talked about number of times. Sorry for the wordy post. Lol
Yeah, Lebron was born knowing everything about basketball. We all know this because he’s the queen, born into it. Some say he is Dr Naismith reincarnated just to show us unworthy peasants how the game SHOULD be played. He always makes the right play.
Keep preachin. This can never be said enough. Once he retires, all the truth will start to come out. he will certainly not be being talked about 30 years later.
Lebron used Klutch to inject himself into the goat debate and remove Kobe completely. It disgusts me because this narcissist says "I don't cheat the game" but he'll disrespect one of the greatest players ever who isn't here to say anything. What a pos Lebron is. And Lebron isn't top 10. Guys like Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, Russell all have a winning record in the finals. Lebron cannot be higher than them with a losing finals record.
@@roboninja3194 Kobe is better because he has a winning record in the Finals is hilariously stupid . You should have added Robert Horry to your garbage list too. Bron fans shouldn’t even chime anymore since the arguments are so ridiculous. Kobe wasn’t even the best player on the team three out of five of his championships. Let me stop speaking facts they get in the way of falsehoods, back to the previous scheduled program. Lakers fans are crazy you are either a Kobe or a Bron fan but you aren’t allowed to be both
Lebron is in there because he took 3 different teams in a 10 year span to the Championship series. No other player could do what Lebron has done. Come straight out of HS and Dominate from day 1. Kobe didn't start, MJ couldn't have went straight to the pro's coming out of HS
@@maalbri1 Kobe wasnt the best player because you dont get that Shaq wasnt a random avg superstars, Shaq was in his prime but Kobe was still developing. Put Lebron into that Lakers team and he wouldnt have been the best player there either YET vs a prime Shaq. Lebron didnt have a top 10 of all time player like Shaq to play with. And btw in 2011 even Wade was better than Lebron in the playoff and where do you place Wade in the all time list? But btw you dont really get that what an advantage Shaq had. He was 216cm, 147kg dude that alone is a real shit. He didnt really need to much skills to produce good numbers. But Kobe had to work really hard for the same.
@@andrewmatzo8167LeBron wasn't dominating since day 1 lol I remember the media massively hyping him up as the next MJ while he was still playing in high school so it was a huge disappointment to watch his first game and see him miss so many shots, especially in clutch time, and I vividly remember thinking "LeBron has a lot to work on to be compared to MJ again"
The 2 most disrespected, underappreciated and completely ignored player's in the "GOAT DEBATE" in NBA history are Kobe Bryant and Hakeem Olajuwan hand's down!!! Also even though Charles Barkley won't ever be in that particular discussion might possibly be the most underrated NBA player in history and possibly in all team sports!!! Barkley was an animal but he unfortunately for him he had to deal with Jordan and the Bulls!!! What truly pisses me off is the fact that LeChoke Job James gets credit and praise that Dewayne Wade did in those LeChoke's Miami Heat year's!! D. Wade was better than James every single year they were on the same team
@@TheRealMindCrime the reason I didn't mention Duncan is because at least some of us will bring him up but NOBODY mentions Barkley or Olajuwan and that's my point, but yes Duncan absolutely deserves his recognition as well
@thsu8 you're crazy cuz Kobe and Bill Russell get mentioned all of the time!! And I'm not talking about the GOAT debate!! I'm talking about how great both players are but aren't ever talked about and David Robinson should be talked about more too!! I'm sick of hearing about Bill Russell when he only had to deal with 9 or 10 opposing teams and only a couple of legitimate big men to do battle with!! Much much different
MJ alone up at the top. No one really argued against Kobe when he was compared to Jordan or thought to be better, oh you didn’t agree but you understood it. Lebron? no, that one you could not let slide
A lot of people already believed that MJ was the greatest ever even before he had won his first championship. So for those people, including myself, the 6 rings were only just icing on the cake. The 6 and 0 is just a flex.
That awkward moment Mark Jackson was about to punch Reggie for giving an excuse...then Reggie remembers he's not commentating on a Laker's game but in a podcast with an old friend haha
Listen...if Im picking my first 5 players....I'm going.....MJ, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Duncan. I've got all bases covered & the IQ on my squad is Supreme Level. No dumb shots, no turnovers, no bad passes.
@@thsu8 Durant is just a poor mans Grant Hill. Grant Hill has more versatility than Durant Lebron is just a slightly better stronger version of Marques Johnson and Paul Pressy (the first true point forwards) but with zero bag in his game Steph Curry is just Reggie Miller on steroids but who cant dunk
I heard you call LeBron a "pass-first" player as his media campaign keeps pushing. I just can't go for that :) LeBron takes more shot attempts per game than Kobe, has less Assists Per Game than Muggsy Bogues (all-time, 5 ranks below at about #25), and we already know he has the most missed shots. ONE Assist title in 21 years. He is a shoot first player who pretends to be a PG, and often passes when he's choking or doesn't want the blame.
The media thinks for the simple minded sheep who try to ignore Kobe.....thats the reason when the 2008 team arrived in China they overwhelmingly chose Kobe..... A country with a higher IQ and no ESPN to manipulate.
Not only Europe and Asia but the rest of the world knows Kobe is way better than Labron. It’s not even a discussion to be honest, even Tim Duncan is better than Labron.
I've always said that LeBron hacked the conversation with ONLY comparing himself to MJ alone, that way he leapfrogged all the other greats he can't even hold a candle to... 🤦
1. Michael Jordan 2. Kobe Bryant 3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 4. Magic Johnson 5. Larry Bird 6. Tim Duncan 7. Lebron James 8. Shaquille O'Neal 9. Jerry West 10. Bill Russell/Wilt Chamberlain
Because as we know who plays for championships is either predetermined or highly highly influenced through officiating. But I know people dont care and still will place a player with more championships over one who's more skilled and talented if he has less titles.
This dude is a lebron hater. Listening to him more and more I can't take anything he say genuine. That discredit this whole video for me. You could have made the video short and just said (I don't like LeBron because ppl think he's better than kobe and Jordan)
@@noonieveliai9921 if you haven't noticed people tend not to change their minds. Especially when it comes to who they watched growing up. It's almost like they look up to that player as if he was their hero or dad idk. But in their eyes nothing anyone can say or show them will change that. It would be nice if people could remove their feeling and just view things with zero bias.
Lebron isn’t even on my list. At all. There are too many enormous negatives with Lebron and it overwhelms everything else. I won’t list them because everybody that is honest knows that list and the list is long. Of course championships matter! That’s the whole point. You play to win.
Michael Jordan transcends this list as the GOAT of GOATS Greatest Basketball Player of AllTime 1. Kobe Bryant (vastly underrated by the statisticians-the player the league wants everyone to forget) 2. Kareem (Greatest ever if we include HS, college and pros) 3. Bird & Magic confusing I know … but Magic’s career was so amazing and he is universally recognized as the greatest PG that he needs to be here but Bird was better than Magic for the first nine years of their careers 4. Bill Russel 11 Championships Greatest Winner 5. Tim Duncan Greatest PF 6. Wilt Chamberlain Mr. Recordbook and Most Dominant 7. Hakeem Olajuwon probably the best ‘two way’ player after Jordan 8. Jerry West Da Logo 9. Julius Erving Dr. J would be thought of differently if we combined ABA and NBA accomplishments 10. Lebron James as overrated (most people put him 1 or 2) as Kobe is underrated 11. Moses Malone 12. Shaq One of the greatest underachievers of All Time. Should be top 5 13. Oscar Robinson 14. David Robinson 15. Elgin Baylor Best Players in the league right now that could crack the top ten… Giannis Antetokounmpo Stephen Curry No body else’s body of work is close enough to add after these two
@ You’re right. This list I made 5 years ago for a debate I had and I just copied and pasted. The Joker is already a top 15 player with his achievements. Dude has basically played by himself his entire career.
Lebron won without Wade, Kobe without Shaq, Shaq, without Kobe, Wade without Bron, but how come MJ never won anything without Pippen? And Pippen went deeper in the playoffs without Jordan than Mike did without Scottie. He's Demar Derozan if he played in Lebron's era, he beat shitty ass teams in the finals, teams that won't make the second round of playoffs in the western conference today. Check the net efficiency of Lebron and Mike's opponents in the finals, incomparable! MJ made the playoffs in 85, 86, 87 with 30 wins, 38 wins and 40 wins. While Lebron missed the playoffs in 2005 with 42 wins, MJ played in the weakest and cocaine era of basketball. Jordan and the Bulls had trouble with Reggie and the Pacers who took them to 7 games, imagine MJ and the Bulls playing against KD and the Warriors? Sweep with no close games. Mike, Scottie and Dennis can't handle an up and coming Grant Hill, while Iverson made Jordan looked like a fool. Jordan would get vertigo trying to guard Kyrie, Steph or even Trae. lol, Lebron would get jailed if he played in Mike's era for what he would do to players back then. Bron beat dynasties Spurs and Warriors, something Jordan know nothing about. Bird swept MJ's ass 2x in the first round and was 6-0 against him in the playoffs. LBJ even passed MJ in scoring taking 1,262 less shots. Jordanites are mad as hell, now that their idol who they thought could do no wrong is getting exposed for how weak his competitions were. We done with the no left no skill 80s and 90s. Lebron at 39, won Olympic Tournament MVP while MJ at 39, too busy destroying the Wizards franchise 🤦🤦😂😂
the guy who gets left out the most is Dr.J, he was unstoppable and had the greatest impact on the generation that followed him. If the video footage was there like it is now, just go by the way his peers talked about him, and the footage that did catch him in his prime. During the mid 70's to mid 80's it was Doc and Kareem that were the most feared.
Kobe - Beat the most 50+ win teams in NBA history - Second most points scored in a single game NBA history, First most in the modern era. - Oldest player to score 60+ - 3rd most consecutive 50+ point games in NBA history - 2nd most All-NBA First Team honors won (tied with Malone) - Most All-NBA Team honors won by a guard - Most All-NBA First Team honors won by a guard - 2nd most All-Defensive Team honors won - Most All-Defensive First Team honors won (tied with Mike, GP, KG) - Only player in NBA history to score at least 600 points in the postseason for three consecutive years - Oldest player to record back-to-back games of 40+ points and 10+ assists - Carried Olympic team to a gold medal - 5x NBA Champion on a three-peat - Dragged a squad with no other superstar/top 75 to repeat - 2x Finals MVP - 1x MVP - 2x Scoring Champ - 9x All-Defense First - 3x All-NBA Second - 18x NBA All Star Kobe is also 1 of only 6 players to win back-to-back Finals MVP (2peat). Kobe did this in one of the most competitive conference in history. Lead the 2000's with the most points scored in the decade and the highest scoring average of the decade.
And here we go 20+ years later and Lebron still has pretty much the same exact game, boring, nothing new, and doesn’t respect the elders and those before him. Didn’t he take lessons from Hakeem? And he doesn’t show any of that on the court at all. Didn’t utilize it. The only reason I bring up Lefraud is because he’s for some reason considered the goat lol
I agree with Reggie on judging greatness but i would say that its both in my opinion the reason Duncan isn't in the goat conversation is because his playstyle was kinda boring
i agree but that also eliminates all the big men from the list. They're boring to watch. I think you're right though and that's why Russell, WIlt, Kareem, etc don't get enough love
Lebron James never participated in any all star events Mike did Larry did Kobe did cause they loved the game and respected the fans Lebron has been spoiled since he was a kid Michael Jordan never said he was the greatest lebron says it all the time and he’s tripping
Nice list here is mine. 1. Bill Russell 2. Michael Jordan 3. Wilt Chamberlin 4. Tim Duncun 5. Kobe Bryant 6. Kareem 7.David Robinson 8. Magic Johnson 9. Manu Ginobli 10. Larry Bird
How could Duncan, 5 rings 3 final MVP 2 mvp and so on is stretching and not lebron? Oh my god... I agree completely with you about mcgrady... If rings don't matter he is in my top 5 too... It's funny a few months ago I said the same thing to a friend... You play basketball to win rings
I have been saying Kobe should be in the Goat conversation for YEARS! and no one pays attention. MJ is the Goat for me personally, but to put Lebron ahead of Mamba and Kareem is Just absurd.
Kobe WAS in the Goat conversation for many many years. It was only when Lebron entered the conversation that everyone acts like Kobe didn't happen. It's weird
@@TheRealMindCrime it is super weird , Kobe was the reason i continued to watch NBA bball after him i rarely follow it, the NBA has changed drastically and I dont like it, but this is me personally I know kids around their early 20's think differently and that is understandable.
What Reggie is talking here, Kob talked with Shaq in the interview about same thing, he said that 1 on 1 helped him a lot in the series with Pacers later. Great story. Kob was a student of the game, he was fully immersed in the craft. I like your takes brother, very level headed, keep up the great work 👍
TBH Kobe’s mentality put him into the GOAT debate, he’s not talented as MJ and LBJ (LBJ has the weakest mentality but his physicality put him into the GOAT debate), let’s put Kobe in Jordan’s shoes, no Shaq no Phil and other good role player in his early career, he’s not gonna have that 3 peat, prime Shaq was a cheat code, nobody has answer to him. I think that’s the reason why people not putting Kobe in Goat debate.
Just think about how badly penny fumbled being the first 3 peat with shaq, He had the most dominant teammate and didnt capitalize on the opportunity, if dude would have took the backseat to shaq in orlando he probably could be considered in the top 10, he was robin that want to force his way 1st option, when you play with someone like just get him the ball and get out the way
@@RedWaves5631 I don’t blame Penny cuz Jordan wasn’t retired, same thing with Kobe, if Jordan was 4-5 years old younger, Phil still coaching the bulls, Kobe and Shaq still won’t have a chance.
@@Idlehands-buddy Nobody was stopping shaq, he just needed teammates during his orlando days, and the bulls had nobody that could guard shaq, dennis rodman couldnt hold shaq without fouling
"My personal goat" is a logical fallacy. Kinda defeats the purpose. The whole matters when you put it into context. Sorry, but your personal favorite doesn't cut it when it comes to the goat debate.
Kobe lead me to realize my own potential i didn't know how to get better in life his work ethic was the secret and i mirror it and motivated myself to work on my entire life as a whole mamba mentality is really something u use for hope
@@TheRealMindCrime Exactly. That's why Michael is 1 and Kobe is 2. Kobe did take some bad shots although he was the best bad shotmaker in league history.
@@TheRealMindCrimeyeah. But at least at 6'5 - 6'6, he got cleaner looks than Iverson often got. It's one reason I was never an Iverson fan. At 6 ft, he forced way too many shots, drifting, floating, etc.
Agreed, but Bill Russell is obviously 3rd behind those two. The leadership, the winning intangibles, the EQ, the intelligence, the understanding of the game, the selflessness....no other big is close.
Being a Champion and raising your game to the greatest Championship level is the icing on the cake winning a trophy for your city and its franchise is why a player is there it is the ultimate goal the players in the GOAT argument have winning records in the finals
MJ would have targeted lebron so hard. All it would have taken was for someone to even hint that they thought bron was better than him. If you thought you've seen lebron quit before, that's nothing to how quick he'd have quit when mike put that pressure on him. MJ would have ripped what little heart lbj has and eaten it raw.
Top 10 NBA players all time: 1 - Michael Jordan 2 - Kareem Abdul Jabbar 3 - Kobe Bryant 4 - Wilt Chamberlain 5 - Larry Bird 6 - Tim Duncan 7 - Bill Russell 8 - Lebron James 9 - Magic Johnson 10 - Hakeem Olajuwon / Shaquille O'neal
@@TheRealMindCrime exactly! I think Mark Jackson feels that way cause he's still a bit salty abut not winning a chip....and pippen shutting him down...Shhhh
Duncan , we seen him get bad end of bad referrees, and how he handled it.. ther guy has everything his way and still whines. Because Duncan like Kareem and a few others.. younger Kobe ect... werent there to kiss the cameras, were basketball players.. this is "Boring" for media and the money machine. STILL got more done stayed competitive his career, not just the few years he could stack the right talent.
agreed. the boring thing keeps all the great bigs out of the conversation. Duncan, Russell, Wilt, etc. It's not about being flashy it's about being the best on the team and winning rings at the same time
This clip is a great example of how great Jordan was. When they played, he and Reggie Miller hated each other yet Reggie has nothing but respect for him and refuses to put ANYONE over MJ. To this day, Mike’s game transcends their sour relationship.
Exactly! Reminds me Mike Tyson. They all hated him when they had to get through him but after the dust settled they all talk about how scary he was. Same with MJ
@nbagoats4819 Shaq played in one of the toughest eras defensively and talent wise. Maybe if he accomplished what he did in a more competitive, modern NBA. Shaq dominated in a way we've never seen and still haven't seen before, and this was against freaks of nature.
The goat debate should be restricted to an era. Players like Shaq would average 50 points in the paint today. Jordan had to do it when you're allowed to: 1) elbow players driving down the lane, 2) use your hands to check (i.e. push) your opponent on defense, 3) players in the past actually tries to excel in both defense and offense. James may be one of the best in his era, but let's not pretend he'll be anything more than a decent SG had he played in the 90s.
Me and my buddy had a discussion yesterday. I have Larry Bird as being the greatest SF ever. He has LeBootleg being better. My rebuttal was is it because LeRooftop can run faster and jump higher? He replied yes. 😂😂😂😂😂. I couldn't do anything but laugh.
Great to see Reggie in the GOAT Debate. I see both sides, but I lean towards racking and stacking individual accomplishments AFTER counting “Championships” - which is a team accomplishment. In order to be one of the greatest players of all time, you need to have gone to the finals (win or lose). Individual Accomplishments: Finals MVP, Season MVP. Scoring, Steals, Blocks, and Assists leader; Defensive Players of the Year, and All Defensive nominees. Steve Kerr has Nine (9) Rings. Charlie Barkley, Reggie Miller and Dominic Wilkerson have zero (0). So, where’s the line in Greatness? That’s why - to me - Individual Accomplishments [see above] gets you in the room, then we pair down with Rings. When I compare Wilt, Russell, Kobe and Kareem to MJ, it’s the individual accomplishments (not the rings) that makes him stand above the rest. I dunno tho..
I do not. Dr J did it on an individual level and won 2 rings in the ABA as well as 1 in the NBA. He earned his spot. I got to watch T mac's whole career though so I like him a lot. Just wish he won more
The reason ppl don't talk about Kobe in the GOAT debate is because the league wanted to remove him from the discussions to prop up LeBron. Shannon Sharpe tweeted in 2012 that Kobe was the 2nd best player ever and now after being bought by klutch is saying he's like 8th or something.
kobe is the goat to 3/4 of the players in the league right now. No matter how much the media tries to ruin kobe's legacy we seen all his history. His career is cemented as a top 10 arguably top 5 player of all time.
I just think a lot of this stuff has to do with upbringing people these days don’t have any discernment. They follow the media and that’s who tells them what to do or who’s good or so on so on.
Boston owns Kyrie its that simple lol. I think accomplishments has to be a part of the criteria, its not all that matters but it is important. Nobody ever says when LeBalco surpassed Kobe, I've never heard the fanboys say when they just dismiss, its like all I'm asking is when, it's not hard. For example, IMO MJ became the GOAT after the first three peat just because he was so dominant on both ends of the flor it wasn't just that he won it was he was dominant while winning.
When did all the bigs get passed. Before Jordan it was Wilt, Russell, and Kareem. After Mike they all disappeared. How do you think they are better than a center who anchored teams offensively and defensively.
Magic and Bird started a new way of thinking when it came to drafting. Before it was take the best center available. Magic and Bird changed that, no one else.
Ppl always forget, what’s not in front of them…. Lebrick is number 11-13 on the all time list Having Lebrick in the top ten is disrespectful to over 10 players before him and two still playing today better than Lebron Steph and Durant
I'm in the middle with championships playing a part in narrowing the best players. It's an important category but not the end all stat. I think it is more complicated since there are numerous aspects you have to take into account. There are players that were so good but didn't have the surrounding team to advance or only capture 1 title. Keep in mind other attributes, accolades, how a player influenced their peers in that time and how it has carried on, how they conducted themselves on and off the court, and so on. It's not as simple as some think. Just my take.
exactly. if it was end all then I'd have Bill Russell as my GOAT. But there's much more to it than that. But if you are great individually but it never led to team winning then that disqualifies you in my book as well. Gotta have it all to be the GOAT and that's why MJ is the final boss imo. He literally did it all
Think about the most respected and feared in league history. Think about MJ’s impact on the league (2 dynasties) when he had the Jordanaires. He was the standard… which is bigger than the GOAT! Just saying.
Had to subscribe because I started watching in the 80s as well and have been a student of the game. And the 4 kings are MJ Magic Bird n Kobe. They will annihilate you go home and have dinner like you never existed. Then there's everyone else Kareem LeBron Timmy Steph Zeke etc.
I appreciate your GOAT criteria… makes complete sense, to me. Ive witnessed NBA basketball now from 6 different decades, and to me Jordan is in a stratosphere by himself…
For me-And I’m not an expert so people can disagree- It MJ, Kareem, Kobe, Bird,Magic. And I would put Magic ahead of Bird depending on what side of the of the bed I woke up on. Then Wilt, Hakeem, Shaq,Ewing,Duncan as my best all time Big Men. Lebron is not in my top ten list because I’ve seen him make weak decisions on the court that none of these guys on my list ever made.
The problem with young NBA players is they don't take advantage of the information they can get from the best players from the past, most of the young players don't respect the skills the old players have, especially the wisdom old heads have. Yeah, I understand they want to do it their way but why not gather important information and wisdom from past NBA greats to be more guided? Look at the NBA now, it's a shit show.
I agree. It was always the way in every industry before now. The elders pass on info to the young ones because talent is cool and all but experience only comes with age and receiving that knowledge is priceless
Kareem is the GOAT. a few reasons..... 3 straight high school titles 3 straight college titles 10 NBA Finals (6 - 4) could just stop there, but.... 6 NBA MVPs Was NBA all time leading scorer (didn't come out of HS) Played 20 seasons (2 teams) 18 playoff appearances and the Sky Hook..... never duplicated. GOAT = Most accomplished 🏀 player
If I had one game to save my life I’d pick like this - 1. Mike 2. Kobe 3. T-Mac 4. Timmy / Kareem 5. Shaq How SHOULD we approach the goat convo? Who we’d pick for a game or all-time stats? I agree with you, T-Mac is up there!
I think its important to take accomplishments, both team and individual, the talent displayed on the court, statistics, competitiveness? roundedness, weaknesses, and specializations into perspective. When you take all that into account MJ is just a cut above the rest with the most spectacular resume as both an individual and as a team.
My top 5 is 1. MJ Because for one he came into a game where there were teams and stars that were great. All dynasty teams either fall off and don't make the finals anymore or simply get older. He beat magic when magic was still in his prime. Team wasn't as great but I'd make the case no 90s team is as good as the Lakers or Celtics in overall team ability. He beat drexler twice who you could make the case is a top 5 all time sg with two appearance is as the best player on a finals appearing team. He beat the sonics who you could make case could be considered a near equal one two punch with Kemp and Payton. As well if make the case they had better overall team talent on those teams than the bulls. He beat Malone who to me at this point is still a top 5 power forward in NBA history. Also beat Charles Barkley Now he never lost in the finals but They didn't always play 7 games in every series so you could make the case the margine for era was much smaller with less games Every top player he beat in the finals is a top 50 all time player Elite on both ends of the court. No one besides wilt Chamberlain avg 30 ppg outside of MJ Which means both of them against competition were actually higher volume scores than LeBron or Kareem. Since MJ the only teams To win more than one title with two legit perennial all stars are Lakers Kobe Shaq Spurs Duncan Robinson Every other team either had one win And one legit star like say Dallas Or a big three like Mia LeBron Wade Bosh Considering times then to now Only Kobe has won both a finals MVP and regular season MVP Wade won finals mvp So you see that she doesn't tend to be a dominant position out of the five when it comes to titles
I don't have Duncan in the debate but he is top 10. I believe a debate should only be between 2-3 players. I already Kareem, Bill, Hakeem and Shaq ahead of him and those are only the big men. Just my opinion though.
The reason Mark said wat he said is because what or shooting guard dominated the when the league was a big man league and he dominated the league when he played after he won his first chip nobody was winning chips but the bulls no one won once he hit the mountain top not on his watch
Yes but in the playground you have to play defence, I'm sure we both pick Paul Pierce over him. tmac is really a 3 that likes to play the 2 coz he like a lot of the players in the area wanted to play like mj, but none of them were as efficient as mj was. Enough can't be said about mj efficiency in the playoffs ×10000000
Lebron passed them all when he went to 10 straight Championship series
He didn't go to 10 straight....at least get your facts straight. His all time Finals record is 4-6.......
Quantity over quality
The participation trophy generation is real
Lol losing 60% doesn't equate to passing 😅 it was 9 straight and 5 of 9 were losses
Wat NBA do you watch??? U should be embarrassed for saying something so wrong..
@@andrewmatzo8167 The only people dumber than LeBron fans are liberal feminists
If I'm losing to Jordan, and I'm a coach or whatever...even though it is likely that I would still lose no matter what...if there is ONE guy that I thought might possibly be able to pull it off, it would be Kobe. It would not be Lebron, or Kareem, or Timmy, or Steph, or KD.
I’ve watched Kareem play. He had a automatic shot. He had a um would say a bag of tricks. I do think Kareem is better than Timmy however Timmy also came up big in fourth quarters during the finals.
@@JesusGonzalez-xz7jgare they comparing Timmy to Kareem? Not close…Kareem got ‘em
Facts! Kobe’s the closest thing. Nobody else is even close to breaching into that stratosphere, let alone be in the conversation. The real debate should be between Mike and Kobe. No other cases.
I agree with this.
@@Top_o_da_foodDChain closest thing, it that debate is long over. There is not even a new Kobe yet so we just have to wait for the next “one”
The kobe disrespect is real
It is real. Its disturbing. He hasn't been retired for that long
hes BEEN getting disrespected even during his career. hows kobe get only 1 mvp??? i remember talking to someone in 2008 and they were like nope lebron way better than kobe. lebron nut riding is reallly real
Not really. Its Krazy how after he passed he was raised! I don't worship the dead. My God is of the living. Kobe has always been overrated b/c of his alignment and copying MJ. He's nowhere near MJ nd not better than Lebron
@@Atlas365247facts
@@Atlas365247Even if Kobe did copy Michael, he still had to execute things himself. Mike wasn't gonna forge Kobe's legacy for him. Kobe still did it on his own. lbj has no business being mentioned with them.
Kobe is number two to MJ. LeBalco should NEVER be in the GOAT debate at freaking all. Socially engineered himself into the conversation.
agreed
I have Magic after MJ,I do have Kobe ahead of Bron tho,but I'm not gonna Hate on his longevity just bcuz I don't like his antics..He spends $1M on his body to be able to still be relevant at 40..2days SOFTASS NBA is a contributing factor as well...
@@leecorleone you’re typing allegations but none has been proven 😂😂folks so salty!!
Too me if you take any type of PED it's disrespectful to the players before you.
@ 🤣🤣🤣so who took PEDS? Not you assuming but PROOF!!!
Michael Jordan is WAY beyond being number one. If there was a higher position, that would be his.
MJ is the final boss
@@TheRealMindCrimewait u taking Kobe who avg 22 points on 38 percent shooting and 67 percent shooting from the Free throw line in game 7s over LeBron who avg 35 on 48 percent shooting and 77 percent from the Free throw line ok sounds smart to me
Leflop "surpassed" Kobe when he sadly passed away because there's no one to defend the conversation. Lemedia smeared his legacy.
You are wrong, there are lot of people who are real basketball fans and who are sick and tired of fake narratives and lies fabricated to push LeDiddy into imaginary nonexistant debate. Kob was only man who deserves to be compared to MJ player wise and what he accomplished, despite being pushed and diminished awards wise because Colorado incident
yeah that's what makes it so sick to me
Miss Kobe, too soon. If he were still here, he'd set LeFraud straight.
For real. This fake narrative has gotten out of hand when Kobe passed away. I'm 101% sure that this bs will not exist if Kobe'w still alive. He will not let the media get away with this stupidity.
@@randellllarena7525 💯
I swear Kobe's the Bruce Wayne/ Batman of basketball. He learned as much as he could from the greats of the past, his peers, and even the younger guys towards the end of his career. Pure greatness!
☝️
The bit where Reggie talked about Kobe asking questions about how to do such and such in order to improve his game is the reason why i believe Kobe (and MJ) is miles ahead and better than Lebron. Its that willingness to learn the game.
Lebron has been active for 20+ years and every aspect of his game hadn't changed at all....the charging down the lane with the head down...the inability to create a shot or make a shot etc etc.
I dont wanna go on because its already been talked about number of times. Sorry for the wordy post. Lol
but he knew better since he was lik e 8 remember... he said so... so it must be true
Yeah, Lebron was born knowing everything about basketball. We all know this because he’s the queen, born into it. Some say he is Dr Naismith reincarnated just to show us unworthy peasants how the game SHOULD be played. He always makes the right play.
Nah you're good man lol. I agree with you 💯
Keep preachin. This can never be said enough. Once he retires, all the truth will start to come out. he will certainly not be being talked about 30 years later.
@@Top_o_da_foodDChain Naismith was actually pretty trash at his own creation. Look up his coaching record sometime.
It's refreshing to see Reggie NOT praising LeFlop all the time, like he does on TV lately.
Good to see him not on tnt for a change lol
Lebron used Klutch to inject himself into the goat debate and remove Kobe completely. It disgusts me because this narcissist says "I don't cheat the game" but he'll disrespect one of the greatest players ever who isn't here to say anything. What a pos Lebron is. And Lebron isn't top 10. Guys like Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, Russell all have a winning record in the finals. Lebron cannot be higher than them with a losing finals record.
Shaq vs Bron is debatable. But Shaq loses points for being outta shape and his prime not lasting longer
@@roboninja3194 Kobe is better because he has a winning record in the Finals is hilariously stupid . You should have added Robert Horry to your garbage list too. Bron fans shouldn’t even chime anymore since the arguments are so ridiculous. Kobe wasn’t even the best player on the team three out of five of his championships. Let me stop speaking facts they get in the way of falsehoods, back to the previous scheduled program. Lakers fans are crazy you are either a Kobe or a Bron fan but you aren’t allowed to be both
Lebron is in there because he took 3 different teams in a 10 year span to the Championship series. No other player could do what Lebron has done. Come straight out of HS and Dominate from day 1. Kobe didn't start, MJ couldn't have went straight to the pro's coming out of HS
@@maalbri1 Kobe wasnt the best player because you dont get that Shaq wasnt a random avg superstars, Shaq was in his prime but Kobe was still developing. Put Lebron into that Lakers team and he wouldnt have been the best player there either YET vs a prime Shaq. Lebron didnt have a top 10 of all time player like Shaq to play with. And btw in 2011 even Wade was better than Lebron in the playoff and where do you place Wade in the all time list? But btw you dont really get that what an advantage Shaq had. He was 216cm, 147kg dude that alone is a real shit. He didnt really need to much skills to produce good numbers. But Kobe had to work really hard for the same.
@@andrewmatzo8167LeBron wasn't dominating since day 1 lol I remember the media massively hyping him up as the next MJ while he was still playing in high school so it was a huge disappointment to watch his first game and see him miss so many shots, especially in clutch time, and I vividly remember thinking "LeBron has a lot to work on to be compared to MJ again"
The 2 most disrespected, underappreciated and completely ignored player's in the "GOAT DEBATE" in NBA history are Kobe Bryant and Hakeem Olajuwan hand's down!!! Also even though Charles Barkley won't ever be in that particular discussion might possibly be the most underrated NBA player in history and possibly in all team sports!!! Barkley was an animal but he unfortunately for him he had to deal with Jordan and the Bulls!!! What truly pisses me off is the fact that LeChoke Job James gets credit and praise that Dewayne Wade did in those LeChoke's Miami Heat year's!! D. Wade was better than James every single year they were on the same team
I'd say Duncan as well. All 3 of them are crazy disrespected
@@TheRealMindCrime the reason I didn't mention Duncan is because at least some of us will bring him up but NOBODY mentions Barkley or Olajuwan and that's my point, but yes Duncan absolutely deserves his recognition as well
Wrong. It's easily Kobe and Bill Russell. Read the Bill/Wilt chapter in Bill Simmons' Book of Basketball.
@thsu8 you're crazy cuz Kobe and Bill Russell get mentioned all of the time!! And I'm not talking about the GOAT debate!! I'm talking about how great both players are but aren't ever talked about and David Robinson should be talked about more too!! I'm sick of hearing about Bill Russell when he only had to deal with 9 or 10 opposing teams and only a couple of legitimate big men to do battle with!! Much much different
@@TheRealMindCrime Duncan is over-respected now IMO. He is being put up in the top 5 quite a bit which is too high.
MJ alone up at the top. No one really argued against Kobe when he was compared to Jordan or thought to be better, oh you didn’t agree but you understood it. Lebron? no, that one you could not let slide
yup, MJ is the final boss
What about Wilt bro?
@@themoviereviewwarriors939 Wilt has the stats, but not the championships. Gotta have both.
A lot of people already believed that MJ was the greatest ever even before he had won his first championship. So for those people, including myself, the 6 rings were only just icing on the cake. The 6 and 0 is just a flex.
agreed! We already knew he was the BEST ever but he became the GREATEST ever because of those rings
@@TheRealMindCrimeyes! There is a distinction! LeBron is the best of his generation but nowhere near the greatest of all time.
Agreed
That awkward moment Mark Jackson was about to punch Reggie for giving an excuse...then Reggie remembers he's not commentating on a Laker's game but in a podcast with an old friend haha
i know haha. I love it. Kenny Smith also went in hard with this too., Cool to see these guys off the air of tnt spittin it
Mark Jacksons son looks like a random Created Player on NBA2k
lol
Listen...if Im picking my first 5 players....I'm going.....MJ, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Duncan. I've got all bases covered & the IQ on my squad is Supreme Level. No dumb shots, no turnovers, no bad passes.
that 5 will also work as a great starting 5
Goddamn that's a great team👌
You don't have all bases covered. Bird and Magic will get abused on the perimeter by Durant and LeBron and Tmac and Melo and Luka and Steph and Kyrie.
@@thsu8 Riiiiiight....& whatever 5 you come up with will get abused on the perimeter & in the post. Now who is your 5.
@@thsu8 Durant is just a poor mans Grant Hill. Grant Hill has more versatility than Durant
Lebron is just a slightly better stronger version of Marques Johnson and Paul Pressy (the first true point forwards) but with zero bag in his game
Steph Curry is just Reggie Miller on steroids but who cant dunk
I heard you call LeBron a "pass-first" player as his media campaign keeps pushing. I just can't go for that :) LeBron takes more shot attempts per game than Kobe, has less Assists Per Game than Muggsy Bogues (all-time, 5 ranks below at about #25), and we already know he has the most missed shots. ONE Assist title in 21 years. He is a shoot first player who pretends to be a PG, and often passes when he's choking or doesn't want the blame.
Pass first, #4 all time In assists but not even top 25 in assists per game
Fail.
Lebron is literally the best of all time at zero categories
@@TheRealMindCrime I think for Rebounds Per Game he didn't even make the list.
"LeBron is pass first" is just another example of manufactured propaganda spread by media talking heads paid by his Klutch handlers.
Kobe Bryant is better than lebron in so many ways. He has better highlights than most players. He's won more rings than most players
Agreed ☝️
@TheRealMindCrime if you take rings out, then Dominique Wilkins, Grant Hill, AI, Rondo, Curry. List goes on and on.
@@kaizokubro7398nobody filled arenas and prime time tv like #Mike🥰
Yes. That's why Lebron is 16-6 vs Kobe all time, beat his ass in every categories. Kobe is better than Lebron, at raping people, I give you that.
The media thinks for the simple minded sheep who try to ignore Kobe.....thats the reason when the 2008 team arrived in China they overwhelmingly chose Kobe..... A country with a higher IQ and no ESPN to manipulate.
yup, this is just an american thing because of american media being trash. Europe AND Asia know that Kobe is above Lebron.
That is a great point. LeBron and his Klutch handlers control the American media. The Chinese revered Kobe, not LeBron.
Not only Europe and Asia but the rest of the world knows Kobe is way better than Labron. It’s not even a discussion to be honest, even Tim Duncan is better than Labron.
I've always said that LeBron hacked the conversation with ONLY comparing himself to MJ alone, that way he leapfrogged all the other greats he can't even hold a candle to... 🤦
i know....it's so weird
@@TheRealMindCrimelongevity and amassed totals do that. Kareem too.
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Tim Duncan
7. Lebron James
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Jerry West
10. Bill Russell/Wilt Chamberlain
Solid! Just like my list, except I have Shaq and Wilt above Lebron
I’d add Hakeem up there too. Maybe above Lebron but under Wilt.
MJ, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kobe, Hakeem, Russell, Shaq.
pretty solid list Mhaxthor!
Pretty good top 10! I always have a hard time solidifying 3-10 but I liked how you set the older guys in there aswell
If it ain’t about championship why even play the game
Exactly. Same with the olympics. Goal is to win the gold
Because as we know who plays for championships is either predetermined or highly highly influenced through officiating. But I know people dont care and still will place a player with more championships over one who's more skilled and talented if he has less titles.
@@TheRealMindCrimeand lebron got 3 golds
This dude is a lebron hater. Listening to him more and more I can't take anything he say genuine. That discredit this whole video for me. You could have made the video short and just said (I don't like LeBron because ppl think he's better than kobe and Jordan)
@@noonieveliai9921 if you haven't noticed people tend not to change their minds. Especially when it comes to who they watched growing up. It's almost like they look up to that player as if he was their hero or dad idk. But in their eyes nothing anyone can say or show them will change that. It would be nice if people could remove their feeling and just view things with zero bias.
Lebron isn’t even on my list. At all. There are too many enormous negatives with Lebron and it overwhelms everything else. I won’t list them because everybody that is honest knows that list and the list is long.
Of course championships matter! That’s the whole point. You play to win.
Agreed. With so many greats to choose from Im not picking Lebron. Way too many flaws
You can hate him but he has to be a top 5 player
@@TheRealMindCrimelol. way too manny flows yet got 40k 11k 11k? averaged 25, 5, 5 since 2005. Lebron haters likes to lie a lot 😂😂😂
Michael Jordan transcends this list as the GOAT of GOATS
Greatest Basketball Player of AllTime
1. Kobe Bryant (vastly underrated by the statisticians-the player the league wants everyone to forget)
2. Kareem (Greatest ever if we include HS, college and pros)
3. Bird & Magic confusing I know … but Magic’s career was so amazing and he is universally recognized as the greatest PG that he needs to be here but Bird was better than Magic for the first nine years of their careers
4. Bill Russel 11 Championships Greatest Winner
5. Tim Duncan Greatest PF
6. Wilt Chamberlain Mr. Recordbook and Most Dominant
7. Hakeem Olajuwon probably the best ‘two way’ player after Jordan
8. Jerry West Da Logo
9. Julius Erving Dr. J would be thought of differently if we combined ABA and NBA accomplishments
10. Lebron James as overrated (most people put him 1 or 2) as Kobe is underrated
11. Moses Malone
12. Shaq One of the greatest underachievers of All Time. Should be top 5
13. Oscar Robinson
14. David Robinson
15. Elgin Baylor
Best Players in the league right now that could crack the top ten…
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Stephen Curry
No body else’s body of work is close enough to add after these two
Giannis over Jokic to crack top 10?
@ You’re right. This list I made 5 years ago for a debate I had and I just copied and pasted. The Joker is already a top 15 player with his achievements. Dude has basically played by himself his entire career.
Lebron won without Wade, Kobe without Shaq, Shaq, without Kobe, Wade without Bron, but how come MJ never won anything without Pippen? And Pippen went deeper in the playoffs without Jordan than Mike did without Scottie. He's Demar Derozan if he played in Lebron's era, he beat shitty ass teams in the finals, teams that won't make the second round of playoffs in the western conference today. Check the net efficiency of Lebron and Mike's opponents in the finals, incomparable! MJ made the playoffs in 85, 86, 87 with 30 wins, 38 wins and 40 wins. While Lebron missed the playoffs in 2005 with 42 wins, MJ played in the weakest and cocaine era of basketball. Jordan and the Bulls had trouble with Reggie and the Pacers who took them to 7 games, imagine MJ and the Bulls playing against KD and the Warriors? Sweep with no close games. Mike, Scottie and Dennis can't handle an up and coming Grant Hill, while Iverson made Jordan looked like a fool. Jordan would get vertigo trying to guard Kyrie, Steph or even Trae. lol, Lebron would get jailed if he played in Mike's era for what he would do to players back then. Bron beat dynasties Spurs and Warriors, something Jordan know nothing about. Bird swept MJ's ass 2x in the first round and was 6-0 against him in the playoffs. LBJ even passed MJ in scoring taking 1,262 less shots. Jordanites are mad as hell, now that their idol who they thought could do no wrong is getting exposed for how weak his competitions were. We done with the no left no skill 80s and 90s. Lebron at 39, won Olympic Tournament MVP while MJ at 39, too busy destroying the Wizards franchise 🤦🤦😂😂
I don’t think people put Larry legend in these lists often enough, you’re spot on.
Larry might be the second biggest killa ever in the NBA
Yeah i got bird tied at 3rd all time with magic for a reason lol. Guy was just that good and had an insane will to win
@ no doubt about it, you definitely know what you know
Your list is deadly
My Top 5 Goats 🐐(In My Personal Opinion)
1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Kobe
KOBE ALL DAY
All day
the guy who gets left out the most is Dr.J, he was unstoppable and had the greatest impact on the generation that followed him. If the video footage was there like it is now, just go by the way his peers talked about him, and the footage that did catch him in his prime. During the mid 70's to mid 80's it was Doc and Kareem that were the most feared.
that's true and to be fair I'm part of that problem. I don't mention Dr J nearly enough
Great list got yourself a new sub
Thank you!
Kobe
- Beat the most 50+ win teams in NBA history
- Second most points scored in a single game NBA history, First most in the modern era.
- Oldest player to score 60+
- 3rd most consecutive 50+ point games in NBA history
- 2nd most All-NBA First Team honors won (tied with Malone)
- Most All-NBA Team honors won by a guard
- Most All-NBA First Team honors won by a guard
- 2nd most All-Defensive Team honors won
- Most All-Defensive First Team honors won (tied with Mike, GP, KG)
- Only player in NBA history to score at least 600 points in the postseason for three consecutive years
- Oldest player to record back-to-back games of 40+ points and 10+ assists
- Carried Olympic team to a gold medal
- 5x NBA Champion on a three-peat
- Dragged a squad with no other superstar/top 75 to repeat
- 2x Finals MVP
- 1x MVP
- 2x Scoring Champ
- 9x All-Defense First
- 3x All-NBA Second
- 18x NBA All Star
Kobe is also 1 of only 6 players to win back-to-back Finals MVP (2peat). Kobe did this in one of the most competitive conference in history.
Lead the 2000's with the most points scored in the decade and the highest scoring average of the decade.
And here we go 20+ years later and Lebron still has pretty much the same exact game, boring, nothing new, and doesn’t respect the elders and those before him. Didn’t he take lessons from Hakeem? And he doesn’t show any of that on the court at all. Didn’t utilize it.
The only reason I bring up Lefraud is because he’s for some reason considered the goat lol
Totally agree. It never made sense to me why people suddenly put him above Kobe
I agree with Reggie on judging greatness but i would say that its both in my opinion the reason Duncan isn't in the goat conversation is because his playstyle was kinda boring
i agree but that also eliminates all the big men from the list. They're boring to watch. I think you're right though and that's why Russell, WIlt, Kareem, etc don't get enough love
Wasn't boring was the best ever to see after Jordan
@@raiderpaul8363 my point was that he didn't have that athleticism or flair that jordan had
Bro ur dismissal of Lebron is a joke lmao
Lebron James never participated in any all star events Mike did Larry did Kobe did cause they loved the game and respected the fans Lebron has been spoiled since he was a kid Michael Jordan never said he was the greatest lebron says it all the time and he’s tripping
Nice list here is mine.
1. Bill Russell
2. Michael Jordan
3. Wilt Chamberlin
4. Tim Duncun
5. Kobe Bryant
6. Kareem
7.David Robinson
8. Magic Johnson
9. Manu Ginobli
10. Larry Bird
niiiiiice!
@@TheRealMindCrime thanks. Surprised by manu being on? Shouldn't be..
How could Duncan, 5 rings 3 final MVP 2 mvp and so on is stretching and not lebron? Oh my god... I agree completely with you about mcgrady... If rings don't matter he is in my top 5 too... It's funny a few months ago I said the same thing to a friend... You play basketball to win rings
100% thats it right there. People get lost in the nonsense and forget the point of the game...to win lol
I have been saying Kobe should be in the Goat conversation for YEARS! and no one pays attention. MJ is the Goat for me personally, but to put Lebron ahead of Mamba and Kareem is Just absurd.
Kobe WAS in the Goat conversation for many many years. It was only when Lebron entered the conversation that everyone acts like Kobe didn't happen. It's weird
@@TheRealMindCrime it is super weird , Kobe was the reason i continued to watch NBA bball after him i rarely follow it, the NBA has changed drastically and I dont like it, but this is me personally I know kids around their early 20's think differently and that is understandable.
We all know JJ Barea is the real GOAT
I got JJ number 2 behind Teen Wolf
@@TheRealMindCrime 😆
Tim Duncan: 5-1 in finals
Lebron: 3-6
☝️
and 2 of those 6 losses are from Tim Duncan
@@mduzzzy4275 yeah!
I like the way you very subtly did not include that Mickey Mouse ring. Noice!
@@mj23goat3 yeah, that shit is the most absurd fluke in sports history.
What Reggie is talking here, Kob talked with Shaq in the interview about same thing, he said that 1 on 1 helped him a lot in the series with Pacers later. Great story. Kob was a student of the game, he was fully immersed in the craft. I like your takes brother, very level headed, keep up the great work 👍
hey thank you so much zvon! I really appreciate that
TBH Kobe’s mentality put him into the GOAT debate, he’s not talented as MJ and LBJ (LBJ has the weakest mentality but his physicality put him into the GOAT debate), let’s put Kobe in Jordan’s shoes, no Shaq no Phil and other good role player in his early career, he’s not gonna have that 3 peat, prime Shaq was a cheat code, nobody has answer to him. I think that’s the reason why people not putting Kobe in Goat debate.
agreed. Kobe wasn't blessed with natural gifts for the game. He got everything with hard work
Just think about how badly penny fumbled being the first 3 peat with shaq, He had the most dominant teammate and didnt capitalize on the opportunity, if dude would have took the backseat to shaq in orlando he probably could be considered in the top 10, he was robin that want to force his way 1st option, when you play with someone like just get him the ball and get out the way
@@RedWaves5631 I don’t blame Penny cuz Jordan wasn’t retired, same thing with Kobe, if Jordan was 4-5 years old younger, Phil still coaching the bulls, Kobe and Shaq still won’t have a chance.
@@Idlehands-buddy Nobody was stopping shaq, he just needed teammates during his orlando days, and the bulls had nobody that could guard shaq, dennis rodman couldnt hold shaq without fouling
@@RedWaves5631 Penny was better than Kobe when Kobe hasn’t become black mamba, so even you switch Penny to Kobe they still won’t win.
If we count championships, Bill Russell is The Goat!
"My personal goat" is a logical fallacy. Kinda defeats the purpose. The whole matters when you put it into context. Sorry, but your personal favorite doesn't cut it when it comes to the goat debate.
agreed. Im lucky to where my GOAT pick is also my favorite player but most of my other favorite players are not in the goat race
Kobe lead me to realize my own potential i didn't know how to get better in life his work ethic was the secret and i mirror it and motivated myself to work on my entire life as a whole mamba mentality is really something u use for hope
that's how i feel too. It's MJ then the list begins after him. He's the final boss and no one is challenging his spot, yet
If rings don’t matter Allen Iverson is top 2 ever
☝️
Kobe had an excellent skill set. He just wasn't efficient enough to make top 5 imo
Thats a fair argument
I like Kobe but not every game did he make his team or teammates better. There were days he was only looking to shoot.
Thats why he's not number 1. He had a little too much Iverson in him imo
@@TheRealMindCrime Exactly. That's why Michael is 1 and Kobe is 2. Kobe did take some bad shots although he was the best bad shotmaker in league history.
Yeah, they were known as "most days".
@@TheRealMindCrimeyeah. But at least at 6'5 - 6'6, he got cleaner looks than Iverson often got. It's one reason I was never an Iverson fan. At 6 ft, he forced way too many shots, drifting, floating, etc.
Kobe is so special
MJ. Kobe. The rest. No one is close. And lebron isn’t a top 20 all time.
Agreed, but Bill Russell is obviously 3rd behind those two. The leadership, the winning intangibles, the EQ, the intelligence, the understanding of the game, the selflessness....no other big is close.
Lmao you re dumb
🎯🎯🎯
@@thsu8Wilt. KAJ. Duncan. Hakeem. Moses Malone
@ none of them are close to Bill Russell.
Being a Champion and raising your game to the greatest Championship level is the icing on the cake winning a trophy for your city and its franchise is why a player is there it is the ultimate goal the players in the GOAT argument have winning records in the finals
MJ would have targeted lebron so hard. All it would have taken was for someone to even hint that they thought bron was better than him. If you thought you've seen lebron quit before, that's nothing to how quick he'd have quit when mike put that pressure on him. MJ would have ripped what little heart lbj has and eaten it raw.
For sure. Just like he did with anyone who was compared to him. He ended that comparison immediately by showing us how much better he is
Top 10 NBA players all time:
1 - Michael Jordan
2 - Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3 - Kobe Bryant
4 - Wilt Chamberlain
5 - Larry Bird
6 - Tim Duncan
7 - Bill Russell
8 - Lebron James
9 - Magic Johnson
10 - Hakeem Olajuwon / Shaquille O'neal
Having Hakeem and Duncan on there makes me happy
Saying championships don't matter is like saying size doesn't matter, does it account for everything?....no but it matters more often than not.🤣
yup! saying it doesn't matter is just coping
@@TheRealMindCrime exactly! I think Mark Jackson feels that way cause he's still a bit salty abut not winning a chip....and pippen shutting him down...Shhhh
Now that’s what players today SHOULD be doing! Learn from the greats that came before them. Anthony Edwards should be watching this video! 😅
lol!! yeah ANT can definitely learn something from this. Too bad he thinks he the best already
Duncan , we seen him get bad end of bad referrees, and how he handled it..
ther guy has everything his way and still whines.
Because Duncan like Kareem and a few others.. younger Kobe ect... werent there to kiss the cameras, were basketball players.. this is "Boring" for media and the money machine.
STILL got more done stayed competitive his career, not just the few years he could stack the right talent.
agreed. the boring thing keeps all the great bigs out of the conversation. Duncan, Russell, Wilt, etc. It's not about being flashy it's about being the best on the team and winning rings at the same time
This clip is a great example of how great Jordan was. When they played, he and Reggie Miller hated each other yet Reggie has nothing but respect for him and refuses to put ANYONE over MJ. To this day, Mike’s game transcends their sour relationship.
Exactly! Reminds me Mike Tyson. They all hated him when they had to get through him but after the dust settled they all talk about how scary he was. Same with MJ
1) Michael Jordan
2) Kobe Bryant
3) Magic Johnson
4) Larry Bird
5) Shaquille O'Neal
nice!
I would put Hakeem, Duncan and Kareem (and a few others too) ahead of Shaq...
@@OlJackBurton I love those players, but a prime Shaq was something else.
The fact that you put Shaq ahead of Wilt is ludacris.
@nbagoats4819 Shaq played in one of the toughest eras defensively and talent wise. Maybe if he accomplished what he did in a more competitive, modern NBA. Shaq dominated in a way we've never seen and still haven't seen before, and this was against freaks of nature.
Nice reviews 👌
Thank you!
Jordan is #1, but Lebron is way above Kobe. Lebron is somewhere between 2 and 5, Kobe is somewhere between 7 and 9.
The goat debate should be restricted to an era. Players like Shaq would average 50 points in the paint today. Jordan had to do it when you're allowed to: 1) elbow players driving down the lane, 2) use your hands to check (i.e. push) your opponent on defense, 3) players in the past actually tries to excel in both defense and offense. James may be one of the best in his era, but let's not pretend he'll be anything more than a decent SG had he played in the 90s.
I had Kobe behind Mike for years before his tragic passing, damn it still feels weird writing that
i know.....it's still weird that he's gone...
KOBE NUMBER 1 FOR ME ON MY LIST I AM A DIE HEART KOBE FAN
✊️
If it's all about titles, then that once again proves the point, Lebone isn't close, because without Ray, Flash, and Covid, Lebone only has 1...
it's a combo. Gotta win rings and also be the best on the team during that time.
Duncan is not a pf. If Duncan is a pf then olajuwon is a pf. Both spent 5 seasons as a pf and rest at center.
Great point. Duncan played center from November 2003 until he retired.
KOBE MY GOAT
I totally respect that 👏
Me and my buddy had a discussion yesterday. I have Larry Bird as being the greatest SF ever. He has LeBootleg being better. My rebuttal was is it because LeRooftop can run faster and jump higher? He replied yes. 😂😂😂😂😂. I couldn't do anything but laugh.
😆 🤣 😂 oh boy
Championships has nothing to do with skill set, winning chips is a team effort not individual effort
Great to see Reggie in the GOAT Debate. I see both sides, but I lean towards racking and stacking individual accomplishments AFTER counting “Championships” - which is a team accomplishment. In order to be one of the greatest players of all time, you need to have gone to the finals (win or lose).
Individual Accomplishments: Finals MVP, Season MVP. Scoring, Steals, Blocks, and Assists leader; Defensive Players of the Year, and All Defensive nominees.
Steve Kerr has Nine (9) Rings. Charlie Barkley, Reggie Miller and Dominic Wilkerson have zero (0). So, where’s the line in Greatness? That’s why - to me - Individual Accomplishments [see above] gets you in the room, then we pair down with Rings. When I compare Wilt, Russell, Kobe and Kareem to MJ, it’s the individual accomplishments (not the rings) that makes him stand above the rest. I dunno tho..
agreed. it takes both. You gotta win the rings but also be the best out there while doing it
Is it bad that Barack Obama called out all the NBA players all star game horrible performance?
I think that's hilarious. He's an old school Bulls fan so he knows what basketball SHOULD look like lol
Im a raptors fan. I am so happy someone mention Tim Duncan
Me too. Its criminal that he doesn't get mentioned more
@therealmindcrime do you put T-Mac above Dr. J?
I do not. Dr J did it on an individual level and won 2 rings in the ABA as well as 1 in the NBA. He earned his spot. I got to watch T mac's whole career though so I like him a lot. Just wish he won more
Duncan would've won six rings if Ray Allen would've missed that 3 in the finals.
I know! That shot was insane
You mean if Ray Allen missed the bailout 3 after LeBron choked on 4 straight possessions in the final minute of that Game 6....
Kobe asked Reggie how to beat him in the Finals 2 years later... 😂😅
Pretty much yup 😆
The reason ppl don't talk about Kobe in the GOAT debate is because the league wanted to remove him from the discussions to prop up LeBron. Shannon Sharpe tweeted in 2012 that Kobe was the 2nd best player ever and now after being bought by klutch is saying he's like 8th or something.
agreed. Asia and Europe know better though because they aren't influenced by American media. They all have Kobe over Lebron
kobe is the goat to 3/4 of the players in the league right now. No matter how much the media tries to ruin kobe's legacy we seen all his history. His career is cemented as a top 10 arguably top 5 player of all time.
Very true! He influenced this gen like MJ influenced the previous
U so right Tim Duncun never got his fired coach 😂, but I also got Tim over both brons 😂
Lol exactly
I just think a lot of this stuff has to do with upbringing people these days don’t have any discernment. They follow the media and that’s who tells them what to do or who’s good or so on so on.
Boston owns Kyrie its that simple lol. I think accomplishments has to be a part of the criteria, its not all that matters but it is important. Nobody ever says when LeBalco surpassed Kobe, I've never heard the fanboys say when they just dismiss, its like all I'm asking is when, it's not hard. For example, IMO MJ became the GOAT after the first three peat just because he was so dominant on both ends of the flor it wasn't just that he won it was he was dominant while winning.
Yeah they say he passed Kobe in 2016 but they can't explain WHY lol
The guy you hung your video in just said rings dont matter 🤣 we done with the 90s
Thank u tell the truth Kobe over James all day long James played like 30 yrs ok he still is not better then Kobe so how can he even see MJ
Agreed!
When did all the bigs get passed. Before Jordan it was Wilt, Russell, and Kareem. After Mike they all disappeared. How do you think they are better than a center who anchored teams offensively and defensively.
Magic and Bird started a new way of thinking when it came to drafting. Before it was take the best center available. Magic and Bird changed that, no one else.
I push like because I know your legit man even if I didn't watch the vid yet.
hey I appreciate that man! I value integrity in myself and others
Ppl always forget, what’s not in front of them….
Lebrick is number 11-13 on the all time list
Having Lebrick in the top ten is disrespectful to over 10 players before him and two still playing today better than Lebron
Steph and Durant
Yeah i currently have him 11. People get really mad about it but its my legit place for him. Too many good greats and that top 10 is loaded
Lol as soon as I heard the narrator goat list, i had to stop the video 🤣🤣
I don’t care what anyone says. Kobe is the 2nd best player to ever touch a basketball behind Michael.
I agree 100%
Your opinion.
I'm in the middle with championships playing a part in narrowing the best players. It's an important category but not the end all stat. I think it is more complicated since there are numerous aspects you have to take into account. There are players that were so good but didn't have the surrounding team to advance or only capture 1 title. Keep in mind other attributes, accolades, how a player influenced their peers in that time and how it has carried on, how they conducted themselves on and off the court, and so on. It's not as simple as some think. Just my take.
exactly. if it was end all then I'd have Bill Russell as my GOAT. But there's much more to it than that. But if you are great individually but it never led to team winning then that disqualifies you in my book as well. Gotta have it all to be the GOAT and that's why MJ is the final boss imo. He literally did it all
@@TheRealMindCrime How do you rank per position?
Think about the most respected and feared in league history. Think about MJ’s impact on the league (2 dynasties) when he had the Jordanaires. He was the standard… which is bigger than the GOAT! Just saying.
MJ,Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kobe, Kareem, Shaq, Lebron and Curry in that order.
nice! I love seeing the respect for Duncan here
Kareem, MJ, Kobe. Then toss up. Magic, Larry, LeBron, Wilt.
Yeah I can lock down a top 5 usually but it gets to be a toss up after that
Had to subscribe because I started watching in the 80s as well and have been a student of the game. And the 4 kings are MJ Magic Bird n Kobe. They will annihilate you go home and have dinner like you never existed. Then there's everyone else Kareem LeBron Timmy Steph Zeke etc.
nice! Sounds like we think very similar
Thats why you don't listen to Klutch medias and Analysts. You listen to the players.
I appreciate your GOAT criteria… makes complete sense, to me.
Ive witnessed NBA basketball now from 6 different decades, and to me Jordan is in a stratosphere by himself…
Thank you!
For me-And I’m not an expert so people can disagree- It MJ, Kareem, Kobe, Bird,Magic. And I would put Magic ahead of Bird depending on what side of the of the bed I woke up on. Then Wilt, Hakeem, Shaq,Ewing,Duncan as my best all time Big Men. Lebron is not in my top ten list because I’ve seen him make weak decisions on the court that none of these guys on my list ever made.
He also asked Scottie how to play defense and how he uses his footwork when playing defense…
I believe it. I saw Pippen at teaching while the Lakers were practicing. Phil had all the greats come out and mentor
The problem with young NBA players is they don't take advantage of the information they can get from the best players from the past, most of the young players don't respect the skills the old players have, especially the wisdom old heads have. Yeah, I understand they want to do it their way but why not gather important information and wisdom from past NBA greats to be more guided?
Look at the NBA now, it's a shit show.
I agree. It was always the way in every industry before now. The elders pass on info to the young ones because talent is cool and all but experience only comes with age and receiving that knowledge is priceless
Kareem is the GOAT.
a few reasons.....
3 straight high school titles
3 straight college titles
10 NBA Finals (6 - 4)
could just stop there, but....
6 NBA MVPs
Was NBA all time leading scorer (didn't come out of HS)
Played 20 seasons (2 teams)
18 playoff appearances
and the Sky Hook..... never duplicated.
GOAT = Most accomplished 🏀 player
I respect that. Still wish i got to see him in his prime
If I had one game to save my life I’d pick like this -
1. Mike
2. Kobe
3. T-Mac
4. Timmy / Kareem
5. Shaq
How SHOULD we approach the goat convo? Who we’d pick for a game or all-time stats?
I agree with you, T-Mac is up there!
add Bird to that list and I agree lol
@@TheRealMindCrime Bird at the 3 for T-Mac? Yeah, I can’t argue against that either.
@@Top_o_da_foodDChain either way this team is gonna crush 😆
I think its important to take accomplishments, both team and individual, the talent displayed on the court, statistics, competitiveness? roundedness, weaknesses, and specializations into perspective. When you take all that into account MJ is just a cut above the rest with the most spectacular resume as both an individual and as a team.
Well said ☝️
My top 5 is
1. MJ
Because for one he came into a game where there were teams and stars that were great.
All dynasty teams either fall off and don't make the finals anymore or simply get older.
He beat magic when magic was still in his prime. Team wasn't as great but I'd make the case no 90s team is as good as the Lakers or Celtics in overall team ability.
He beat drexler twice who you could make the case is a top 5 all time sg with two appearance is as the best player on a finals appearing team.
He beat the sonics who you could make case could be considered a near equal one two punch with Kemp and Payton. As well if make the case they had better overall team talent on those teams than the bulls.
He beat Malone who to me at this point is still a top 5 power forward in NBA history.
Also beat Charles Barkley
Now he never lost in the finals but
They didn't always play 7 games in every series so you could make the case the margine for era was much smaller with less games
Every top player he beat in the finals is a top 50 all time player
Elite on both ends of the court.
No one besides wilt Chamberlain avg 30 ppg outside of MJ
Which means both of them against competition were actually higher volume scores than LeBron or Kareem.
Since MJ the only teams
To win more than one title with two legit perennial all stars are
Lakers
Kobe Shaq
Spurs
Duncan
Robinson
Every other team either had one win
And one legit star like say Dallas
Or a big three like
Mia
LeBron
Wade
Bosh
Considering times then to now
Only Kobe has won both a finals MVP and regular season MVP
Wade won finals mvp
So you see that she doesn't tend to be a dominant position out of the five when it comes to titles
I don't have Duncan in the debate but he is top 10. I believe a debate should only be between 2-3 players. I already Kareem, Bill, Hakeem and Shaq ahead of him and those are only the big men.
Just my opinion though.
Yeah he's in my top 10 too
The reason Mark said wat he said is because what or shooting guard dominated the when the league was a big man league and he dominated the league when he played after he won his first chip nobody was winning chips but the bulls no one won once he hit the mountain top not on his watch
agreed
Thank you I've been saying it for years Tracy McGrady is overrated he's a great weapon but I will pick penny hardaway over him any day
On the playground it would hard not to pick Tmac but to win rings he just didn't get it done.
Yes but in the playground you have to play defence, I'm sure we both pick Paul Pierce over him. tmac is really a 3 that likes to play the 2 coz he like a lot of the players in the area wanted to play like mj, but none of them were as efficient as mj was. Enough can't be said about mj efficiency in the playoffs ×10000000