Timestamps with topics just added and there should be no mid-roll ads (if there is just refresh). RUclips always puts a ton of them in and I have to delete them.
Thanks for deleting the ads, there has to be a better way for RUclips to proceed! Ads just turn people away from products when they do nothing but annoy!
In my experience, silence isn't lying. What comes after the silence maybe, but at least when people are silent after a question it shows they're thinking. I don't expect apologists to punch themselves in the face like that in a "live" debate. But at least at some level they're thinking about things. Whether their position and their public stance will ever allow that to translate into ideological change is another thing entirely.
@@talktomeaboutlife That they have to think about it was for me the whole point it is often that sign of cognitive dissonance because you can see that they are calculating what the response should be to what is a simple answer do you wish to be a slave. The point is that instinctivly your answer is no but them saying no have repercussions that affect their faith. hence silence is not them 'thinking' it is them in a gotcha question where either answer breaks their beliefs say yes then you are accepting that slavery is good say no and you are saying that the bible is wrong hence the strenuous attempt at saying that the bible does not condone slavery. The catch 22 is the problem
@@davidwilliams3397 Agreed. I would take their silence as a moment to contemplate how they are going to give a tap dance answer. They know slavery is wrong, yet they won't acknowledge it because they are unable & unwilling to reconcile the fact that its in a bible they want to adhere to as a literal moral guide.
Back when I was a Christian, I thought Cliffe was the shit. I thought he could stand up to any atheist. I see him now, and he is just a sad little man, with no arguments to back him up. I feel sorry for him, because he has his whole life emotionally invested so much in his beliefs, that he will never admit that his Bible has terrible ideas in it that is justified by the god he worships.
Cliffe wants to prove that God is foundation for morality, he said multiple times that Matt can't explain why slavery is immoral, which suggests that Cliffe doesn't know why slavery is immoral. According to Cliffe, slavery is immoral solely because of God. Does that mean that slavery would be moral, if God commanded so?
@@rebukeandreprove. Sheesh! well thanks for answering again. I'm sorry your previous answers were deleted, but how am I supposed to know that? obviously I didn't delete them. I really don't understand why you are angry at me.
Your comment is not one bit fishy and it wasn't even a red herring. Cliffe is living in an aquarium and does not know there is a reality outside of the tank and his arguments floundered because they did not hold water.
The fact that Dr Bowen IS a scholar short circuits a lot of the arguments. The fact that he can quote the actual hebrew, the original text was written in kinda kills the idea of what the text did and didn't mead
Yeah, Dillahunty was a bit too aggressive in this debate, I think. Not to say Cliffe wasn't expressing so e truly horrific moral opinions, but because it let him play the outraged victim card and ignore the actual criticism. I can imagine a believer listening to this and letting Cliffe's moral posturing shut their ears to the valid points being made
Matt made this point many years ago: if god is anti slavery an all knowing god could easily avoided this ambiguity by just adding “thou shall not own another person as property”.
The worst with their argument is that god could’ve made it clear that slavery is wrong *and* not abolished it. Like, he could be just said « slavery is wrong, but I understand you can’t do without it, so here’s the minimum standard to which you can practice slavery with, try your hardest not to have it », there, done, « instructions to live in a sinful world » that actually look like and state that they are instructions to live in a sinful world -_-
@@riffhammeron Ah, right, couldn’t missed that one. Maybe he could’ve added pages to his book, but then I guess he would’ve run into problems with his editor XD
The late George Carlin does a bit on this somewhere along the lines of, 'Apparently god was doing sloppy work that day and he missed a few things like slavery.... just fuckin' slipped his mind.'
Cliffe is hopeless. He has been doing this so long he has his established talking points and will not vary from them. Stuart knows his position is weak but has to stay true to his pop and his ministry. I like Stuart. He will come out of the closet one day when he figures out how to keep the income stream active. A man's gotta eat, and feed his family.
I’ve been thinking the same thing about Stuart for a while. He constantly has that, “what am I doing here making these terrible arguments when I agree with the other side” look.
I could be wrong but he gives off an authoritarian air, I find him rather unsettling as he reminds me of my violent father. My way or no way, the condescension and arrogance of a man who has never been told NO in his life.
@@je9950 It's true. He told me as much. Well, the Holy Spirit told me he told him as much...and since that internal testimony is infallible, it's true that Stuart is embarrassed of these terrible arguments and is just looking for a way out.
Right. It's like rather than telling your child not to drink alcohol, you instead tell them how much they're allowed to consume and where they can do it. You're just putting stipulations on what you're condoning. Cliff knows this.
God certainly found time in the Torah to put a blanket ban on homosexual sex. (Lev. 18 : 22). He even called it "to'evah", meaning an abomination. Not sure why that type of sex is worse than any other, but at the very least, all we're asking for is the same level of anger against slavery...
Not even, God could’ve allowed slavery for pragmatic reasons *and* made it extremely clear that it was wrong. That he didn’t condemn it, not even once, makes it pretty clear it was never a priority in his mind :/
@Jim Merrilees Because they were chosen to teach about God to the rest of the people in the world. Look, I don't believe any of it and most/all of it is just made up propaganda or repackaged myths from the surrounding people but according to their own book, they are the suffering servant, they are chosen to follow God in a certain way so they can teach the gentiles about God, not to turn them into Jews though that would be nice, its about their role in the world. God curses them all the time for falling away from the purpose which he has called them to. So they were in Egypt because they were inconsiderate little brats...biblically speaking. That's always why bad stuff happens to them but then they repent and God stops with the beatings.
@@razpootis5802 I've never had anyone agree with me on the internet...are you well? Maybe I should reconsider my position...wait...this is the 7th sign of the apocalypse isn't it!? ;-P
@Jim Merrilees I think you didn't read the part where I said, "...look, I don't believe any of it and most/all of it is just propaganda or repackaged myths from the surrounding people *but according to their own book*..." That was pretty early on in my comment. I'm simply providing an explanation for what the Jews mean when they say they are "chosen". That despite the value of exclusivity we place on "chosen" that it's not like that for them. Rather, it's a responsibility and a burden. Whether there is a God or not, whether the Exodus happened exactly as depicted in the book of Exodus. Whether or not Jesus was a fictional character who was later Euhemerized or a historical figure who was later mythologized. My comment was complete and free from problems, logical, evidentiary or otherwise. Please issue a full retraction and a check in the amount of $6.66 to make whole the pain and suffering you have caused me and also please compose a haiku extolling my humility and grace...or I'll condemn you to an eternity of everlasting conscious torment. --God (of my solipsistic experience bubble)
@Language and Programming Channel the book of Daniel series is my favorite and the one with Old Testament scholar and historian Dr. Francesca Stavrakopoulou
@@pavld335 I agree, he is the kind of man that after he dies his rule of iron becomes public and you find out a lot worse happened behind closed doors.
Stuart and Cliffe have been popping out on my fyp on TikTok arguing College students. Now I know why, he can’t handle an actual debate when each are equally prepared😂
It's not a good look when Cliff and Stuart start laughing when they've been cornered or after they know what they said was silly. I've seen them do this on more than one occasion and it's done quite frequently. Can't help but think they know they're being disingenuous.
For a theist, accepting criticism of scriptures is similar to a parent accepting a criticism of their child's intelligence. It is a personal affront and embarrassment to being genetically or emotionally connected to error or dysfunction, which means holding and defending a position under intense identity markers compromises objectivity to self assess and correct. Further, scriptures are by definition entirely conceptual in nature, so if you are in love with those concepts, divorcing yourself from any single facet would undermine them all. A fear and dread too strong for most theists to overcome.
At the end he brought up the book of job which is not good because God wanted to win a bet with the devil and missed job's life up. He even killed his family member. Such a wonderful God.
@Language and Programming Channel That's the first part of the conceptual process is forming an opinion on possibilities. The second conceptual part is forming an argument for probabilities and the third is outlining a method to support the other two in reality - or perceptual truth. Concepts are little more than bridges attempting to reach perceptual reality. It's the testable, repeatable method that increases confidence in concepts reaching truth.
The older guy on the right is so comical. Routinely becomes a pre-supper when it suits him. You can't know it's immoral unless you can ground your morality in JESUS.
1. The point of Job is that there is no one-to-one correspondence between sin and punishment. 2. Deuteronomy 28 lays out a clear one-to-one correspondence between sin and punishment. What should we draw from this observation? A) The Bible is inconsistent on this topic. B) We can waffle back and forth between either view based on rhetorical convenience. Choose wisely!
Exactly. And written and preserved with conflicting claims so you can have it what ever way you want. You want to have justifications to kill and enslave other tribes? Just read Joshua. You want to defend your ideology from critics - just point to nice verses about love and compassion. Brilliant.
@@jakestevanja1304 no ppl aren't created at all. We are born . Also everyone doesn't have the same opportunities as others. This is blatantly obvious when you just look at school structures around the world
At the other hand : it’s better to know your enemies, before they stab you in the back. And religious people do anything in the name of their god(s)...
@@dustinellerbe4125 The living (usually catatonic or comatose) were thought to be dead and were buried well into the 20th century, even in the 'advanced" USA and UK
He's dealt with worse, he worked with Skylar Fiction for years who had some of the vilest theists on his show to put the spotlight on their depraved beliefs.
@@annabelp I think you might be too harsh. The theists are just following their superstitious fables, and some of them may have better morals than they are instructed to have. I suppose some of them have sold their daughters because a female is only half a proper human's value. In keeping with their teachings, I am sure a few have told the missus to keep her gob shut in church. I must admit that Ken Copeland's gallows laugh on YT recently was a creepy experience. ruclips.net/video/0cW8bHtJJKU/видео.html
Eph 6,5: _"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. "_ If you were a slave would you kill a person if your master told you to?
3:58 Cliffe needs to look up the definition of the word condone. Condone (verb) "accept and allow (behavior that is considered morally wrong or offensive) to continue." The word in that context actually fits perfectly.
Is this guy serious when he says 13 and 14 year old girls captured in war were not taken for sex? What planet is he on? Where, anywhere on Earth is that a real thing? He makes this 💩 up as he goes along.
Yes he is. despite the fact that Deuteronomy lists the little virgin girls as war plunder to be distributed among the soldiers and priests with the cattle. And also despite the fact that Deuteronomy 21:10-25:19 goes into great detail how to legally make a female POW a sex slave. They call it 'marriage' but in the bible marriage is indistinguishable from sex slavery and the slaver could throw her out if she no longer satisfied him. He just couldn't sell her as she was now damaged goods. What's also disturbing is ISIS used the laws set out in Deuteronomy, as depicted in the Quran, as the basis for their own legalisation to allow soldiers to take female POWs as 'brides' for their own pleasure. And going by the views of the Christian men in the debate, they would agree with this as the soldiers 'married' the slaves before raping them as was done in the bible. ignoring the fact that the consent of the girls and women was not even an afterthought...be it in this kind of sanctioned marriage or any marriage in the bible. And because these laws come from their god, the morality is "objective". it's truly sickening how religion rots a person's brain like this.
I need Dr. Josh to do another debate. He was great! Trying to have a reasonable discussion with Cliffe, however, is an exercise in futility. He is absolutely impervious to logic. His inability to understand what people are saying is impressive.
4:30 "God does not play favorites. God does not show partiality." Some people are born into wealthy and opulence; some into poverty and filth. Where is God playing when an innocent child is born?
not to mention what was JUST said about treating the Israelites better than other tribes, which is typical of the entire OT! But I guess God has evolved since then
"God in heaven has given all human beings equal value and dignity" - Cliffe This is utter utter bs. Some human beings are destined for hell. God knows at the point of conception (and even before) whether its going to heaven or hell so all human beings are *not* equal. This God does not deserve a second of worship.
@@fredarroyo7429 all human beings should have an equal opportunity for attaining heaven. If not then God has a plan for only some to attain heaven, and f* the rest. The only way around this is God is not omniscient and doesn't know the future. That isn't something believers want to hear.
@@JohnCamacho how do you know that Gods omniscience means there is no equal opportunity? I feel as if thats an non sequitar, can you expound a bit more?
The Christian Apologist prayer: The bible does not condone slavery. And if it does, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, it's YOUR fault for not understanding it.
I’ve watched this whole debate and this clip and I still can’t wrap my head around Cliffe’s rationalization, even as a recovering fundamentalist evangelical Christian who knows how they think and justify stuff. It’s just an incoherent train wreck. Either slavery is wrong or it’s not, either God condemns it or condones it. If the Bible is his word, and slavery is evil, then why are there rules for slavery in the Bible? Like why even try to defend that? The fact that he sounds angry from the very beginning is very telling, too. The cognitive dissonance is strong.
If you are a Christian there is a way out of this. You don’t have to live in denial and you won’t have to turn yourself in to a pretzel trying to defend the atrocities in the Bible. It is such a weight off your shoulders to be free of this nonsense. It is so freeing!
Yes, but the "out" is to deny that God has anything to do with these prescriptions in the OT (i.e. these verses are not an accurate representation of his nature). BUT, then the Christian has to ask themselves if they should do this with the resurrection story as well.
@@PineCreekDoug Hey Doug! This is Joy Bradford. RUclips dropped me. It wasn’t my fault it was a failure at RUclips. Anyway, I agree. When I read these difficult passages I feel I don’t need to read the 10,000 books by philosophers to understand what it says. I can read the words perfectly. And it says what it says. Listening to the father son team talking about slavery it makes me cringe. It actually hurts me to see such denial and justification for slavery. I hope you and the family are doing well!👍🌸
This (the debate) would actually have been good if it was just Josh and Stuart. Cliffe and Matt in the same room is just a nightmare of shouting waiting to happen.
This Cliff guy took everything so personally...and was so reactionary in terms of feeling insulted...I see that reaction all the time from Christians when these conversations happen, and it has always perplexed me. The topic of conversation or debate has to do with the very words that are written in the book that you are defending and that you hold up and glorify. So Matt isn’t trying to insult you; he’s just digging into the topic and it’s not his fault that the Bible says the words it says. Yet somehow the Christians always gets so insulted and defensive...as if it’s our fault their god is either totally immoral OR self-contradictorily flawed in communicating VERY IMPORTANT & CONSEQUENTIAL things that could negatively impact and perpetually reverberate all throughout human history!
5:46 "God said it, I believe it. That settles it!! Anyone who disagrees, is putting themselves above God, which is the heart of sin!!" So then, why is Cliffe putting himself above God, and contradicting Yahweh's clear, explicit instruction in the Pentateuch, supported by Jesus all through the New Testament, that slavery IS morally permissable? Cliffe may be one of these wishy-washy, post-modernist types who thinks that what is/isn't "moral" changes every time the wind shifts, but God only has ONE set of OBJECTIVE, FIXED, UNCHANGING moral laws- the ones He decreed to Moses, which describe the correct, moral way to own and beat your slaves, and which require ALL followers of Yahweh to stone to death anyone who works on the Sabbath. If you don't follow those Old Testament laws, as Jesus repeatedly requires, then you aren't worshipping the God of the bible. It's just that simple.
They will defend it any way they can just to keep their hope alive. You don't talk to these people in private, the whole point of a public discussion is for the people watching. If for some reason the anchored theist comes around, that's a nice bonus but not the point.
it is so frustrating to see how people arguing against slavery always seem to ignore leviticus 25:44-46. i might be wrong but i do not even recall frank turek addressing those passages.
Simply because leviticus 25:44-46 is irrelevant to this argument, the fact is that at no point in the old or new testaments does God ever condemn slavery, Not once...!!!
"Who is saying that?" According to Cliffe and Stuart's mythology, we were given knowledge of good and evil by eating the forbidden fruit, and expelled from the Garden for rivalling God in that. So, yeah, we _can_ criticise God for His morality, because we are peers in that. From my filthy atheist point of view, the Bible was written by human beings, and so we are still peers of the authors, and we can critique what they have written, if not morally obligated to.
I haven't heard before your beautiful rejoinder to the apologist's question of where we get our morality from. We got it from Adam an Eve eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant!
In a room of a hundred people a book written thousands of years will be interpreted 100 different ways. What makes it used for good or for evil is really the hands that touch it. Why is a critque of the Bible or any living document for that matter heretical or seen as traitorous?
Daniel Castillo And it is those different interpretations that has resulted in thousands of different christian sects, each one convinced that THEIR interpretation is the only truth, which has led to a history of horrific persecution among christians themselves. You would think that a supposedly omnipotent being would be capable of inspiring a book that did not lead to such a scenario.
The theists' argument seems to be: Cliffe - How dare you criticise the Bible! Stuart - Yeah! What he said. They really didn't engaged in debate. But they did include threats of punishment from their god.
I would love to be the anti-slavery black person in one of these debates. I think most people don’t have the balls to justify slavery to a black person. If they do, given them the same facts presented here. Cliffs keeps referring to sin which is utterly irrelevant to the topic.
People seem to ignore that Europeans were also slaves for thousands of years and were purchased by Latins/Hellenists and Middle Eastern/African slave owners. Of course, this was before The Church decided that black people were of an inferior race and were sold by other black Africans and external raiders for 400 years(Africans had also kept each other as slaves during and before this time), but the treatment was just as bad for any slave, at any time.
Christian apologists really don't like it when someone non-Christian quotes bible verses. Almost as if they object to the fact other people have read the book they constantly tell people to read while not reading most of it themselves.
What's interesting is to see Christians become moral relativists when it comes to the behavior of ancient men in the Bible. As a relativist myself, I'm for that. The problem is that they are only when it's convenient. You can't say God is the absolute unchanging standard of morality but also the barbarism of ancient people that is now morally reprehensible is to be understood differently based on when they lived. That's my position consistently; it's theirs selectively.
Timestamps with topics just added and there should be no mid-roll ads (if there is just refresh). RUclips always puts a ton of them in and I have to delete them.
Nice edit Doug
Many thanks for allowing me to gain back 3+ hours of my life.
Doug... 5yrs deconverted. I defended this shit as a bible teacher and minister. Fckd in the head and heart.
Thanks for deleting the ads, there has to be a better way for RUclips to proceed!
Ads just turn people away from products when they do nothing but annoy!
@@recoveringknowitall1534 Wow congratulations!! How did you get out of the rabbit hole?
This was an amazing debate! Matt & Dr. Josh work wonderfully together. Pinecreek, great job cropping out these clips! This material is so powerful.
The long silence when Cliffe and Stuart were asked if they would be OK to be a slave, says it all!
Lying for Jesus, at it's finest!!
In my experience, silence isn't lying. What comes after the silence maybe, but at least when people are silent after a question it shows they're thinking.
I don't expect apologists to punch themselves in the face like that in a "live" debate. But at least at some level they're thinking about things. Whether their position and their public stance will ever allow that to translate into ideological change is another thing entirely.
@@talktomeaboutlife That they have to think about it was for me the whole point it is often that sign of cognitive dissonance because you can see that they are calculating what the response should be to what is a simple answer do you wish to be a slave. The point is that instinctivly your answer is no but them saying no have repercussions that affect their faith. hence silence is not them 'thinking' it is them in a gotcha question where either answer breaks their beliefs say yes then you are accepting that slavery is good say no and you are saying that the bible is wrong
hence the strenuous attempt at saying that the bible does not condone slavery. The catch 22 is the problem
@@davidwilliams3397 Agreed. I would take their silence as a moment to contemplate how they are going to give a tap dance answer. They know slavery is wrong, yet they won't acknowledge it because they are unable & unwilling to reconcile the fact that its in a bible they want to adhere to as a literal moral guide.
9:46 if you are looking for it. That was one looong silence.
Back when I was a Christian, I thought Cliffe was the shit. I thought he could stand up to any atheist.
I see him now, and he is just a sad little man, with no arguments to back him up. I feel sorry for him, because he has his whole life emotionally invested so much in his beliefs, that he will never admit that his Bible has terrible ideas in it that is justified by the god he worships.
@Language and Programming Channel Yep, WLC is another apologetics superstar acrobat.
I've never heard of him before this video, but he seems like a smug prik.
Just a sad little man...Ha! And rather angry too. That's what happens when you try to defend the indefensible.
@@rwsquiresjr64 I'm not sure I've ever viewed him as angry, but rather desperate.
Yea insane for Jesus.
Matt: Would either of you be my slaves under the rules of Exodus?
Crickets
This was the best moment
Cliffe wants to prove that God is foundation for morality, he said multiple times that Matt can't explain why slavery is immoral, which suggests that Cliffe doesn't know why slavery is immoral. According to Cliffe, slavery is immoral solely because of God. Does that mean that slavery would be moral, if God commanded so?
@@goranmilic442 didn’t they admit in another debate they would kill if God commanded it?
@@rebukeandreprove. why not just go ahead and answer it now?
@@rebukeandreprove. Sheesh! well thanks for answering again. I'm sorry your previous answers were deleted, but how am I supposed to know that? obviously I didn't delete them. I really don't understand why you are angry at me.
Dr. Josh absolutely killed it in this debate he was amazing
Your comment is not one bit fishy and it wasn't even a red herring. Cliffe is living in an aquarium and does not know there is a reality outside of the tank and his arguments floundered because they did not hold water.
@@VaughanMcCue wow that analogy just kept flowing
@@Aaron-sh8nz I was waiting for the kettle to boil and figured our mermaid friend(miss Tuna) should have her name honoured. Keep safe. ;-)
The fact that Dr Bowen IS a scholar short circuits a lot of the arguments. The fact that he can quote the actual hebrew, the original text was written in kinda kills the idea of what the text did and didn't mead
Yeah, Dillahunty was a bit too aggressive in this debate, I think. Not to say Cliffe wasn't expressing so e truly horrific moral opinions, but because it let him play the outraged victim card and ignore the actual criticism. I can imagine a believer listening to this and letting Cliffe's moral posturing shut their ears to the valid points being made
For an anti slavery person, Matt sure does OWN a lot of people.
No...he sets them free from the bondage of "believing."
Every single time !
He has been discredited so often he must have a very thick skin😅
Matt made this point many years ago: if god is anti slavery an all knowing god could easily avoided this ambiguity by just adding “thou shall not own another person as property”.
If article 4 of the universal declaration of human rights can do it a god should be able to.
The worst with their argument is that god could’ve made it clear that slavery is wrong *and* not abolished it.
Like, he could be just said « slavery is wrong, but I understand you can’t do without it, so here’s the minimum standard to which you can practice slavery with, try your hardest not to have it », there, done, « instructions to live in a sinful world » that actually look like and state that they are instructions to live in a sinful world -_-
But then he might not have had room to forbid wearing mixed fabrics.
@@riffhammeron Ah, right, couldn’t missed that one.
Maybe he could’ve added pages to his book, but then I guess he would’ve run into problems with his editor XD
The late George Carlin does a bit on this somewhere along the lines of, 'Apparently god was doing sloppy work that day and he missed a few things like slavery.... just fuckin' slipped his mind.'
Cliffe is hopeless. He has been doing this so long he has his established talking points and will not vary from them. Stuart knows his position is weak but has to stay true to his pop and his ministry. I like Stuart. He will come out of the closet one day when he figures out how to keep the income stream active. A man's gotta eat, and feed his family.
I’ve been thinking the same thing about Stuart for a while. He constantly has that, “what am I doing here making these terrible arguments when I agree with the other side” look.
I could be wrong but he gives off an authoritarian air, I find him rather unsettling as he reminds me of my violent father. My way or no way, the condescension and arrogance of a man who has never been told NO in his life.
I just don’t think he believes anything he says. Stuart, if you’re reading this. It’s ok. We’re here for you.
@@je9950 It's true. He told me as much. Well, the Holy Spirit told me he told him as much...and since that internal testimony is infallible, it's true that Stuart is embarrassed of these terrible arguments and is just looking for a way out.
Cliffe reminds me of Kent Hovind in that regard. He has his talking points, and no matter how thoroughly they're debunked, he holds on to them.
Funny how Cliff can’t admit the Bible condones slavery even though it’s extremely plain in the text.
I thought slavery was indentured servitude
@John Wood did slavery pass on into each generation? Did the slaves children become slaves?
@@katieee4915 do you know the reference verses
@@k3630 Yes, it specifically says that the slaves from the surrounding nations can pass down to your children
@@k3630 Leviticus 25:44-46
Making rules for slavery instead of banning it IS condoning it. They constantly have to lie about their deities and what their book says.
Right. It's like rather than telling your child not to drink alcohol, you instead tell them how much they're allowed to consume and where they can do it. You're just putting stipulations on what you're condoning. Cliff knows this.
God certainly found time in the Torah to put a blanket ban on homosexual sex. (Lev. 18 : 22). He even called it "to'evah", meaning an abomination. Not sure why that type of sex is worse than any other, but at the very least, all we're asking for is the same level of anger against slavery...
Not even, God could’ve allowed slavery for pragmatic reasons *and* made it extremely clear that it was wrong.
That he didn’t condemn it, not even once, makes it pretty clear it was never a priority in his mind :/
@@goldenalt3166 A sacrifice for each slave ?
@@goldenalt3166 Oh, right.
It still would piss off vegans though XD
"God does not play favorites." I don't think he read Genesis.
@Jim Merrilees Because they were chosen to teach about God to the rest of the people in the world. Look, I don't believe any of it and most/all of it is just made up propaganda or repackaged myths from the surrounding people but according to their own book, they are the suffering servant, they are chosen to follow God in a certain way so they can teach the gentiles about God, not to turn them into Jews though that would be nice, its about their role in the world. God curses them all the time for falling away from the purpose which he has called them to. So they were in Egypt because they were inconsiderate little brats...biblically speaking. That's always why bad stuff happens to them but then they repent and God stops with the beatings.
@@anitkythera4125 That actually makes a lot of sense. I'll consider this position from now on.
@@razpootis5802 I've never had anyone agree with me on the internet...are you well? Maybe I should reconsider my position...wait...this is the 7th sign of the apocalypse isn't it!? ;-P
@Jim Merrilees I think you didn't read the part where I said, "...look, I don't believe any of it and most/all of it is just propaganda or repackaged myths from the surrounding people *but according to their own book*..."
That was pretty early on in my comment. I'm simply providing an explanation for what the Jews mean when they say they are "chosen". That despite the value of exclusivity we place on "chosen" that it's not like that for them. Rather, it's a responsibility and a burden.
Whether there is a God or not, whether the Exodus happened exactly as depicted in the book of Exodus. Whether or not Jesus was a fictional character who was later Euhemerized or a historical figure who was later mythologized. My comment was complete and free from problems, logical, evidentiary or otherwise.
Please issue a full retraction and a check in the amount of $6.66 to make whole the pain and suffering you have caused me and also please compose a haiku extolling my humility and grace...or I'll condemn you to an eternity of everlasting conscious torment.
--God (of my solipsistic experience bubble)
@Language and Programming Channel he killed Noah too eventually.
"Cliffe, can you calm down?"
"Can *you* calm down?"
Solid rebuttal there, Cliffe XD
He comes across like a petulant child, it's embarrassing.
I laughed out loud when Stewart said, "Wait a minute... you're taking us directly back to the topic..."
Exactly, stay on topic and he wouldn’t need to drag you back. 🤦♀️ 🤦♂️ 🤦 🤦🏾♀️🤦🏽♂️🤦🏾
Lol
Dr. Josh is a beast in ancient textualism. That was brutal.
@Language and Programming Channel the book of Daniel series is my favorite and the one with Old Testament scholar and historian Dr. Francesca Stavrakopoulou
Sadly, atheists know more about the bible than theists.
You can clearly see that Cliffe is really pissed at his son for actually paying attention.
Cliffe is terrible at hiding his emotions. I really enjoy it
Cliffe is a fanatic. He actually frightens me.
@@pavld335 I agree, he is the kind of man that after he dies his rule of iron becomes public and you find out a lot worse happened behind closed doors.
Watching him squirm was priceless.
He’s terrible in every way ...
Stuart and Cliffe have been popping out on my fyp on TikTok arguing College students. Now I know why, he can’t handle an actual debate when each are equally prepared😂
It's not a good look when Cliff and Stuart start laughing when they've been cornered or after they know what they said was silly. I've seen them do this on more than one occasion and it's done quite frequently. Can't help but think they know they're being disingenuous.
Yep and it's often accompanied by an elbow nudge.
Stuart hardly said anything. His dad is a jerk. I bet he's just as much of a jerk as a dad as he is a debater
Asking Matt and Josh why slavery is wrong with a smile on their faces was absolutely horrifying and revolting - this is your brain on religion, folks.
Cliffe: Claims to have the undeniable truth of God.
Also Cliffe: "If, if, if, if..."
The mental gymnastics these two perform just to show that their infallible book is, well, not wrong, ever.... is astounding.
When people fight THAT hard to justify slavery, that tells you all you need to know about their TRUE character.
Indoctrination, cognitive dissonance
@@MrLightning20 exactly
I'm sorry, but Cliffe makes me cringe.
Cliffe is a sociopath. Which came first, the psychopathy or the religion ?
Don't apologize for legitimate emotions. You were gracious
@@suelingsusu1339 point taken, Thanks !
He makes me uncomfortable, there is an air of aggression and anger that I wouldn't want to be around if he lost his temper.
No apology necessary
For a theist, accepting criticism of scriptures is similar to a parent accepting a criticism of their child's intelligence. It is a personal affront and embarrassment to being genetically or emotionally connected to error or dysfunction, which means holding and defending a position under intense identity markers compromises objectivity to self assess and correct. Further, scriptures are by definition entirely conceptual in nature, so if you are in love with those concepts, divorcing yourself from any single facet would undermine them all. A fear and dread too strong for most theists to overcome.
@Language and Programming Channel Excellent. Which ones were deemed faulty?
@Language and Programming Channel I get it now. Finding truth is like deciding your favorite flavor of ice cream?
At the end he brought up the book of job which is not good because God wanted to win a bet with the devil and missed job's life up. He even killed his family member. Such a wonderful God.
@Language and Programming Channel That's the first part of the conceptual process is forming an opinion on possibilities. The second conceptual part is forming an argument for probabilities and the third is outlining a method to support the other two in reality - or perceptual truth. Concepts are little more than bridges attempting to reach perceptual reality. It's the testable, repeatable method that increases confidence in concepts reaching truth.
Wow, great comment.
Great Edit! The only thing missing for Stuart and Cliff, top hats, canes and tap shoes. That was some next level dancing.
WOW. The psychosis of theism is downright frightening.
Well put!
@Language and Programming Channel
More levels of insanity somehow brings it back round to being OK?
@Language and Programming Channel How is Christianity not theism?
@Language and Programming Channel I agree. Just because you’re delusional doesn’t mean you’re insane.
@Language and Programming Channel Understandable why you would say that about Dawkins. He has masterfully exposed the lunacy of the Christian faith.
Don't steal other people's cars doesn't mean don't own cars. Amazing dr Josh. That's a perfect analogy.
If I were a believer I would never argue Slavery in the Bible, there is no way to win that.
I watched the first 40 minutes or so...Cliff was a train wreck
The older guy on the right is so comical.
Routinely becomes a pre-supper when it suits him.
You can't know it's immoral unless you can ground your morality in JESUS.
Yes, absolute bullshit!!
Slavery is wrong, whether its in the Bible or not.
1. The point of Job is that there is no one-to-one correspondence between sin and punishment.
2. Deuteronomy 28 lays out a clear one-to-one correspondence between sin and punishment.
What should we draw from this observation?
A) The Bible is inconsistent on this topic.
B) We can waffle back and forth between either view based on rhetorical convenience.
Choose wisely!
I draw the conclusion that this God would be a toxic boss. You know those ones who are psychopaths that run corporations? Those ones.
Exactly. And written and preserved with conflicting claims so you can have it what ever way you want. You want to have justifications to kill and enslave other tribes? Just read Joshua. You want to defend your ideology from critics - just point to nice verses about love and compassion. Brilliant.
“Why is slavery wrong, because we are made in gods image”. What a krappy demonstration and answer as to why owning someone is wrong.
sooo u dont think all people are created equal? LOL..... okay
@@jakestevanja1304 no ppl aren't created at all. We are born .
Also everyone doesn't have the same opportunities as others.
This is blatantly obvious when you just look at school structures around the world
@@jakestevanja1304 That has a built in assumption that people are created. That’s a baseless speculation presented without evidence.
@@Jambuc829 and you assume people aren’t created. Based on no evidence.
Just glad I don't know Cliffe.
He certainly wouldn't give your lawnmower back!
At the other hand : it’s better to know your enemies, before they stab you in the back. And religious people do anything in the name of their god(s)...
I like it when the debate gets too much, Cliffe threatens Matt with 'you will have to answer before god'
I really thought Matt was going to call him out for Pascal's Wager, maybe that is in the longer version
Great, now me and James Fodor need to debate them on the resurrection and they're done
I would enjoy that
Lazarus, Jesus or the little girl ? lol
@@DBCisco don't forget those that were buried with bells, just in case they came back to life lol
@@dustinellerbe4125 The living (usually catatonic or comatose) were thought to be dead and were buried well into the 20th century, even in the 'advanced" USA and UK
Dew it
Stuart wants Matt to do some of the “heavy lifting”? He’s god, why is any “lifting” required to help him?
Matt: Slavery is morally wrong.
Christians: SAYS WHO!
Right at the beginning, look at Cliffe's body language.
Christians. Time to stop debating this topic. There is no debate. Its what the book actually says.
Cliff, right from the start gets defensive as hell. He starts losing it immediately.
The ending is sad, I feel sorry for Josh that he was treated that way but I think it was great that he engaged with them hope he won't get discouraged
He was fine as his foundations are based on reality, extensive study and not superstition. He has seen the other side of mythology.
He's dealt with worse, he worked with Skylar Fiction for years who had some of the vilest theists on his show to put the spotlight on their depraved beliefs.
@@annabelp I think you might be too harsh. The theists are just following their superstitious fables, and some of them may have better morals than they are instructed to have. I suppose some of them have sold their daughters because a female is only half a proper human's value. In keeping with their teachings, I am sure a few have told the missus to keep her gob shut in church. I must admit that Ken Copeland's gallows laugh on YT recently was a creepy experience. ruclips.net/video/0cW8bHtJJKU/видео.html
This is another great example of how faith based beliefs can absolutely poison your ability to think.
Josh is just on fire 🔥🔥🔥
Eph 6,5: _"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. "_
If you were a slave would you kill a person if your master told you to?
Wow, what a horrible book it is!
yes. As a slave, you really have no choice. Just another reason slavery is immoral
Watching this was painful. Watching two grown men, mostly just Cliffe, defend biblical slavery shows how low society could be.
3:58 Cliffe needs to look up the definition of the word condone.
Condone (verb) "accept and allow (behavior that is considered morally wrong or offensive) to continue."
The word in that context actually fits perfectly.
If they didn't consider it immoral, then maybe condone isn't the right word?
@@Cheepchipsable condone can simply mean allow, its the perfect word
"God does not play favorites"🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😅😆😆😆😆😆😁😁😄😁😆😆😆😅😅😂😂😂😅😅😆😆😅🤣😂😂😂😂
“God chose us form the beginning of creation”
Cliffe was unhinged in this. He can’t BS his way through this like he can in his college campus monologues.
I usually don’t like 2v2 debates but I think Matt and Josh were a good combo. They didn’t get in each other’s way.
Is this guy serious when he says 13 and 14 year old girls captured in war were not taken for sex? What planet is he on? Where, anywhere on Earth is that a real thing? He makes this 💩 up as he goes along.
Yes he is. despite the fact that Deuteronomy lists the little virgin girls as war plunder to be distributed among the soldiers and priests with the cattle. And also despite the fact that Deuteronomy 21:10-25:19 goes into great detail how to legally make a female POW a sex slave. They call it 'marriage' but in the bible marriage is indistinguishable from sex slavery and the slaver could throw her out if she no longer satisfied him. He just couldn't sell her as she was now damaged goods.
What's also disturbing is ISIS used the laws set out in Deuteronomy, as depicted in the Quran, as the basis for their own legalisation to allow soldiers to take female POWs as 'brides' for their own pleasure. And going by the views of the Christian men in the debate, they would agree with this as the soldiers 'married' the slaves before raping them as was done in the bible. ignoring the fact that the consent of the girls and women was not even an afterthought...be it in this kind of sanctioned marriage or any marriage in the bible. And because these laws come from their god, the morality is "objective". it's truly sickening how religion rots a person's brain like this.
I need Dr. Josh to do another debate. He was great! Trying to have a reasonable discussion with Cliffe, however, is an exercise in futility. He is absolutely impervious to logic. His inability to understand what people are saying is impressive.
4:30 "God does not play favorites. God does not show partiality." Some people are born into wealthy and opulence; some into poverty and filth. Where is God playing when an innocent child is born?
And if calvinism is true, " Some R born to sweet delight, others to the endless night"
not to mention what was JUST said about treating the Israelites better than other tribes, which is typical of the entire OT! But I guess God has evolved since then
Once you wake up to the silliness of religion, you find these religious fanatics absolutely insane.
"God in heaven has given all human beings equal value and dignity" - Cliffe
This is utter utter bs. Some human beings are destined for hell. God knows at the point of conception (and even before) whether its going to heaven or hell so all human beings are *not* equal. This God does not deserve a second of worship.
So God exists you just hate him?
@@fredarroyo7429 do you know what an internal critique is?
Hope youre doing good. But okay sure. So equality is defined by outcome not opportunity?
@@fredarroyo7429 all human beings should have an equal opportunity for attaining heaven. If not then God has a plan for only some to attain heaven, and f* the rest. The only way around this is God is not omniscient and doesn't know the future. That isn't something believers want to hear.
@@JohnCamacho how do you know that Gods omniscience means there is no equal opportunity?
I feel as if thats an non sequitar, can you expound a bit more?
The apologists are insufferable. But what do we expect from people who are slaves to the defense of this awful book?
Thanks for compiling this
My pleasure
Cliffe is a terrifying mind. Totally committed. There is no level of intellectual dishonesty so low that he will not go there for Jesus.
How objectionable is Cliff. A real creep.
Cliffe is the absolute worst.
*Ken Ham has entered the chat*
*Sye Ten Bruggencate has entered the chat*
@@chrisyoonthefalseprophet1548 There’s something about Sye’s desperation that makes me sad for him. Cliffe’s smugness encourages me to despise him.
@@gradystein5765 thats a fair point actually
@@chrisyoonthefalseprophet1548 I thought you were actually Chris Yoon at first and I lost my shit lmao
Dr. Josh is Legend
I hope to see more from Dr. Josh
Cliff and his apologetics is to scream and talk louder and hopefully the opponent will give up. That’s it!
The Christian Apologist prayer:
The bible does not condone slavery.
And if it does, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, it's YOUR fault for not understanding it.
The irony of athiests arguing with theists is that they spend more time studying holy books than the theists.
True. If any believer would know more about their own book, they wouldn’t believe anymore...
ignorance is a cancer...
I'd find it hard to turn the other cheek if I ever met Cliffe in person.
I’ve watched this whole debate and this clip and I still can’t wrap my head around Cliffe’s rationalization, even as a recovering fundamentalist evangelical Christian who knows how they think and justify stuff. It’s just an incoherent train wreck. Either slavery is wrong or it’s not, either God condemns it or condones it. If the Bible is his word, and slavery is evil, then why are there rules for slavery in the Bible? Like why even try to defend that? The fact that he sounds angry from the very beginning is very telling, too. The cognitive dissonance is strong.
If you are a Christian there is a way out of this. You don’t have to live in denial and you won’t have to turn yourself in to a pretzel trying to defend the atrocities in the Bible. It is such a weight off your shoulders to be free of this nonsense. It is so freeing!
Yes, but the "out" is to deny that God has anything to do with these prescriptions in the OT (i.e. these verses are not an accurate representation of his nature). BUT, then the Christian has to ask themselves if they should do this with the resurrection story as well.
@@PineCreekDoug Hey Doug! This is Joy Bradford. RUclips dropped me. It wasn’t my fault it was a failure at RUclips.
Anyway, I agree. When I read these difficult passages I feel I don’t need to read the 10,000 books by philosophers to understand what it says. I can read the words perfectly. And it says what it says. Listening to the father son team talking about slavery it makes me cringe. It actually hurts me to see such denial and justification for slavery.
I hope you and the family are doing well!👍🌸
Would you be my slave under the old testament laws
Silence.
A rare logically beautiful moment.
Damn they got owned hard and they knew it hahah! Another win for Dillahunty.
I like how Cliff doesn't even give close to good rebuttals. All he does is lie, dogde questions, and says that's your opinion bro.
This (the debate) would actually have been good if it was just Josh and Stuart. Cliffe and Matt in the same room is just a nightmare of shouting waiting to happen.
Matt: “Would you be my slave under biblical rules?”
*crickets*
Cliff just wants to make it perfectly clear he isn't making a point about anything
lol
uh oh dr josh brought the heat
This Cliff guy took everything so personally...and was so reactionary in terms of feeling insulted...I see that reaction all the time from Christians when these conversations happen, and it has always perplexed me. The topic of conversation or debate has to do with the very words that are written in the book that you are defending and that you hold up and glorify. So Matt isn’t trying to insult you; he’s just digging into the topic and it’s not his fault that the Bible says the words it says. Yet somehow the Christians always gets so insulted and defensive...as if it’s our fault their god is either totally immoral OR self-contradictorily flawed in communicating VERY IMPORTANT & CONSEQUENTIAL things that could negatively impact and perpetually reverberate all throughout human history!
Dr. Josh swinging for the fences! And it’s outta here!!!
Excellent job and I know he’s nit super comfortable in head on debates. He knows his shit. 🤓😎
5:46 "God said it, I believe it. That settles it!! Anyone who disagrees, is putting themselves above God, which is the heart of sin!!"
So then, why is Cliffe putting himself above God, and contradicting Yahweh's clear, explicit instruction in the Pentateuch, supported by Jesus all through the New Testament, that slavery IS morally permissable?
Cliffe may be one of these wishy-washy, post-modernist types who thinks that what is/isn't "moral" changes every time the wind shifts, but God only has ONE set of OBJECTIVE, FIXED, UNCHANGING moral laws- the ones He decreed to Moses, which describe the correct, moral way to own and beat your slaves, and which require ALL followers of Yahweh to stone to death anyone who works on the Sabbath.
If you don't follow those Old Testament laws, as Jesus repeatedly requires, then you aren't worshipping the God of the bible. It's just that simple.
They will defend it any way they can just to keep their hope alive. You don't talk to these people in private, the whole point of a public discussion is for the people watching. If for some reason the anchored theist comes around, that's a nice bonus but not the point.
It’s despicable that Cliffe and his clown apologist brother try to cover this up with bull shit
It’s utterly disgraceful
Slavery is wrong, but if you’re going to do it, here’s how... 🤨
That's about right. Except for the first three words... the bible never says anything like "Slavery is wrong".
Several times during the full debate, Stuart is so clearly disappointed with his father.
So you r taking us right back to the topic...hahahaha
Is Josh talking in 1.5x speed?
it is so frustrating to see how people arguing against slavery always seem to ignore leviticus 25:44-46. i might be wrong but i do not even recall frank turek addressing those passages.
Simply because leviticus 25:44-46 is irrelevant to this argument, the fact is that at no point in the old or new testaments does God ever condemn slavery, Not once...!!!
@@Fluffysweep typical tap dance. what is it people like you ignore the part of passing on people to your children because they are your property.
there is some serious miscommunication here, haha. Seems like you both agree the Bible is wrong, no?
@@ChannelMath I think he meant people arguing for slavery in the bible, Not against,....your right this threw me, LoL
@@ChannelMath where did i say the bible is wrong?
"Who is saying that?" According to Cliffe and Stuart's mythology, we were given knowledge of good and evil by eating the forbidden fruit, and expelled from the Garden for rivalling God in that. So, yeah, we _can_ criticise God for His morality, because we are peers in that.
From my filthy atheist point of view, the Bible was written by human beings, and so we are still peers of the authors, and we can critique what they have written, if not morally obligated to.
I haven't heard before your beautiful rejoinder to the apologist's question of where we get our morality from. We got it from Adam an Eve eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant!
I converted to Atheism because of this video!!! GOD IS GOOD!!!
Imagine spending your adult life trying desperately to rationalize the immorality of fairy tales. What a waste.
All debates should be between deep experts like Dr. Josh. Seeking truth and not equivocating.
I only have the testimony of the Holy Spirit on this but I hear that Stuart is kind of embarrassed by the stupid stuff his dad says.
Like talking to a brick wall, a very slippery and illusive brick wall with no real answers, kudos to Matt and Josh for their patience
In a room of a hundred people a book written thousands of years will be interpreted 100 different ways. What makes it used for good or for evil is really the hands that touch it. Why is a critque of the Bible or any living document for that matter heretical or seen as traitorous?
Daniel Castillo And it is those different interpretations that has resulted in thousands of different christian sects, each one convinced that THEIR interpretation is the only truth, which has led to a history of horrific persecution among christians themselves. You would think that a supposedly omnipotent being would be capable of inspiring a book that did not lead to such a scenario.
My god Stuart and Cliffe embarrassed themselves to the core.
Cliffe is angry because he realized that he won't get away with cherry picking the Bible.
Thanks for saving our time.
Josh: it seems like you’re being wishy washy and inconsistent in your reasoning
Cliff: so be it
Lol
The theists' argument seems to be:
Cliffe - How dare you criticise the Bible!
Stuart - Yeah! What he said.
They really didn't engaged in debate. But they did include threats of punishment from their god.
I would love to be the anti-slavery black person in one of these debates. I think most people don’t have the balls to justify slavery to a black person. If they do, given them the same facts presented here. Cliffs keeps referring to sin which is utterly irrelevant to the topic.
People seem to ignore that Europeans were also slaves for thousands of years and were purchased by Latins/Hellenists and Middle Eastern/African slave owners. Of course, this was before The Church decided that black people were of an inferior race and were sold by other black Africans and external raiders for 400 years(Africans had also kept each other as slaves during and before this time), but the treatment was just as bad for any slave, at any time.
AHHHHH just google 'The Contemporary Conflation of Slavery in the Bible' feat Brandon Cleaver.
Religion makes otherwise kind-hearted people do and say some reprehensible things
16:07 and 16:54 were my favorite parts. Josh nailed it.
Thanks for this vid!
Could you make a vid with Matt's intro on his "Pascal's wager" debate?? Please!! Lol...
Thanks again PC!
PineCreek’s mustache > Dillahunty’s mustache. RIP PineCreek’s mustache.
@Amelia Portman ÷(
Christian apologists really don't like it when someone non-Christian quotes bible verses. Almost as if they object to the fact other people have read the book they constantly tell people to read while not reading most of it themselves.
What's interesting is to see Christians become moral relativists when it comes to the behavior of ancient men in the Bible. As a relativist myself, I'm for that. The problem is that they are only when it's convenient. You can't say God is the absolute unchanging standard of morality but also the barbarism of ancient people that is now morally reprehensible is to be understood differently based on when they lived. That's my position consistently; it's theirs selectively.