Stay tuned for future parts. Enjoy the real-time illustration of 'तेल गेले तूप गेले, हाती राहिले धुपाटणे' as 3067 BCE collapses on its own contradictions. -- I want to thank the entire Sangam Talks team (Sarayu Trust) and Dr. Manish Pandit for their contributions in making this event happen. There are many other individuals to thank, however, I do not know their names (SM handles). If you want to get maximum out of this debate (Part 1 and future parts), watch this episode multiple times and write down your critique for both claims and arguments (and responses) from both sides. The implication of this attempt to revive/revitalize the Indic tradition of Vaada is enormous. But it is only potential at this point. No one will able to hide behind their titles and decorations and popularity. All the claims for the events of Indian history must be put forward for their analysis, evaluation to detect naivety, dogma, fraud, unscientific arguments, and illogical reasonings. Cheers!
Yes Nilesh Ji... I have written all your Proofs for Mahabharata and Ramayan in a Book.. I have already memorized the shlokas like. "Brahmarashirvishudhasya Shudhasya Paramarshya... Archishmanth prakashante Dhruvam Sarvee Pradakshinam" .. "Panchyashatam sshatchakrupravira shesham dinanam tava jeevitasya" ..and many more.. I told my Father he's a Shri Rama Bhakt.. About this.. But he says its "Millions of years old" 😌 thanks for your work.. Really.. Im also from Pune.. If you have any event here in future let us know on Twitter 😊 Namaskar🙏
Regardless of who is right , it is this kind of erudite scholarly debates that our schools; colleges and Universities should compulsorily embrace to bring forth a genuine intellectual curiosity and seriousness in every walk of our education. I have had my education up to post graduation and have not even once had the fortune to witness such a stimulating debate. How can anyone not be fired with great interest towards any subject after listening to these stalwarts ? It is not necessary that one should be right , both could be wrong because we are determining dates of an event that happened 5 millennia away based on astronomical and circumstantial references. But such a rewarding and enlightening debate cannot be lost on any listeners mind. I wish Sangam Talks are made part of our Educational curriculum in order for our young learners to appreciate what it means to gain a scholarly outlook!
Sir ,As long as Hinduism is pushed back by organised vote looters and political scavangers it's difficult to bring such things in to books. Tarka ,memamsa,etc were parts of learning. Any thing everything that highlights anciant knowledge is Hindutva. Only when this attitude is killed ,real wisdom dawns. Let's do it. Share and educate youth and school at home. Schools never support as bloody word secularism is in our constitution.
@@getdrvasuyes sir. Now communists,,Congress,other opposition are democratically killing Hinduism. Do we need democracy for getting our culture and civilization to be destroyed? Please share your views strongly We need to fight ..
@@Ramarao-dq8mfWe can recreate our system of learning and research, and rediscover out ancient knowledge by studying our relevant materials in depth and in organised manner. It doesn't need to depend on government or politicians, thus they won't be able to meddle with it with their half knowledge or stupidity.
Man.... I know nilesh oak quite a long! He is really talented, desperate, quite, genuine guy. He has taken lot of hard works to put this theory! Now this is the best thing they are having VADA not DEBATE! This is the Indian culture. I have seen the Mr pandit side too. They both claimed. Now to look up parameters to decide exact year not a era>3.here's only a one round and I m looking forward for VADA. Its so delicate to handle such a conversation with healthy way! They are doing it. Good keep it up. But there is no doubt that they are not only stories, something more!
Because there is no 'adikaprasangi' anchor to butt in every few seconds to show his mug in the TV camera & interrupt both causing general irritations & choppings off the thread of conversation.
Thank you Sangam Talks, Nileshji and Manishji. I hope all of you will be very proud 20-30 years down the line once, after getting inspiration from this event, our next generation takes onboard this tradition of Vada.
I am going to loop this video and watch it again and again until the second part is released. Both the legends are awesome. It's lion vs lion 🦁 vs 🦁. The one which has Krishna on his side wins ❤️❤️❤️🔥🔥🔥
Excellent presentation by both speakers. After the cross-examination, I can only say that whatever the date might be, 5661 BC or 3067 BC, it only speaks volumes about how advanced we were in ancient times in terms of astronomy and every other aspect of life.
Hare Krishna. I would like to congratulate both speakers for an engaging debate. I especially would like to thank Dr Manish Pandit for his brilliant and logical presentation and explanation of the timeline for Lord Krishna's mission of peace and Lord Balram's pilgrimage. May HH Bhaktivedanta Swami bless us all.
Suhasini dasi Many thanks for your feedback. The references of the Mahabharata can only point to one particular year 3067BCE (I am aware that many ISKCON followers have 3139BCE in mind which I prove wrong on my astronomyofindia.wordpress.com blog ) as the AV observation can only become visible as an omen in the 4500BCE to 1000BCE phase. In that period, resolution for the 34 references of planetary positions must start with Saturn as its slowest moving. Only 4 shlokas exist for it and so one must find the exact explanations for each shloka. Then Mars must tally and there are only two Shlokas which refer to it explicitly. Then three verses referring to Jupiter and so on. Each must be shown with explanations as they are mutually contradictory. I have found the secret to each verse and it’s on my book. Then the Moonrise references and Moonphase must be established and back counted and forward counted. If this is not done, one lands up in severe difficulties. I have accounted perfectly for those Moonphases and you can find additional resources on those in my YT channel and in my free book. Thanks for your encouragement and Jai Shri Rama! Pranaam and Dhanyawaad.
@@SaraswatiFilms Hare Krishna. Thanks for responding. I found your explanation of the 14th night Moonrise was very logical. Even before the video of this debate was online, a guest speaker at our mission was talking about how scientific the Mahabharata was and he had mentioned this Moonrise and how Krishna's wisdom prevailed on Bhima's son. In fact, I stayed awake last year looking at the sky on the 12th to 15th days near sunset in both the bright and dark half of the Moon to check those Moonrises after getting a translation from Swamiji. That was an Ah Ha moment when I realised that the 14th warday Moonrise was only possible during the late night during the waning phase. Your work is amazing and I hope that it will be shown at all ISKCON missions. May HH Bhaktivedanta Swami bless you with further such accurate insight so you may uncover the mysteries of Lord Krishna .
🙏 Thank you so much for conducting this debate. After viewing Nilesh talks, I commented; We are too Naive and unskilled to reach conclusion whether Right or not. Like Shashtrarth, Such things must be debated among Team of S M E of Mahabharat, Astronomy, Sanskrit to Test-Verify on various 'Kasauti' to come to conclusion. Bring us complete debate, feeling unsatisfied, by terminating debate so abruptly in the middle without conclusion. Do more such Debates among Exerts.
Well said ....We need an Umpire who knows both Astrology and Sanskrit.....He/she can put more questions or make more clarifications from both of them.....In this scenario both are saying their argument is true by throwing away the real questions.........But still a good debate..
Absolutely great and I'm speechless. It's my first time, I watched "a sane vada" and I love it. Nilesh sir is marvellous and Manish sir is giving a tough fight. Waiting for second portion & third portion.🙏🙏🙏
Thanks to Nilesh Oak and Sangam Talks for making the debate happen. I have corroborated the 4 timelines of the war, planetary combinations and other points pretty much for the modified theory of 3067BCE. This theory is rock solid and near perfect now, my other short videos and free book show why 3067BCE is the only realistic year of the war.
Thank you. And if there is enough interest/response (let's say Million+ views), we may ask Sangam Talks if they want to do Part 4 that we could not do due to time constraints (on 19 Jan 2020) to do it via Zoom, and then upload in RUclips.
@@SaraswatiFilms That make sense but a request to refrain from calling others theory/findings as absurd. that is a personal attack on the other side... As Nilesh said it is better to AGREE TO DISAGREE. And one more request if a question is asked let the answer be completed. Do not cut the speaker in the middle... Thanks and Pranamam
@@SaraswatiFilms My Respectful Namaste Sir. A small doubt. In your theory you say of a Celestial Body with Shika (a tail) cutting through the Saptarshi Mandala. Can we take that planet to be Guru? Because Guru is a Pandit And he has a Shika. And even if Guru is not that big enough being the biggest planet of our Solar System. The vision from the Earth would have been seen to Cut through. Thank you Sir. Please reply if this question is valid. Thank you Sir 🙏🙏🙏 Your contribution towards dating has been immense.
Victory Defeat Pranaam. Very interesting question. Unfortunately this is an impossibility. No graha except comets have a shikha. Either hiding or penetrating Saptarishi mandala is impossible for either Jupiter or Saturn from near Vishakha. I know because I tried initially 12 years back to reconcile this sort of idea... luckily I realised that it was wrong otherwise I too would have come to erroneous conclusions. Ask any person what is the significance of Saturn at Rohini or check my free 250+ page book for more. Also check: ruclips.net/video/mLceUJnXydg/видео.html
Looking forward more Vad like this.. our antient tradition which is gonna Inspire the youth and also gonna increase their understanding about our ancient history and knowledge.. Naman to both 🙏🙏
No one can imagine such a wonderful debate on such topics. This is Called Veda Gyan. Thank you to both the speakers for enlighten us with your wonderful research. I as a technology person little bit seems biased towards Dr. Nilesh Logics though, but at least i learned that anyone can disagree with me. Thats a great learning.
Great discussion between two great scholars. To resolve dispute between two thought processes it is mandatory that both scholars check each others findings. Dr Pandit has so far shown data of 1. Karna srikrishna meet 2. Balrama yatra 3. Date of start of war. He must verify data of mr oak for 300+ observation as claimed by mr oak. And mr oak must verify data given by mr Pandit. Nobody can use canned data, that is selective data for making claims. But discussion is interesting.
Saie corp Kindly read my free 258 page book on this entire topic to understand more. Corroborated every timeline of the war, most observations and debunked entire theories of other scholars here: ruclips.net/video/mLceUJnXydg/видео.html
What is truly required now is for independent listeners to study, analyze and evaluate claims made by both of us (Dr. Manish Pandit and I) and test them for validation (translation, multiple interpretations, etc.) + objective testing + logical inferencing. In addition, test each claim against the logic of the scientific method, elements of the scientific method, consistency, ability of each claim to preserve the successes (non-falsified) of the past, new predictions, validation of new predictions + newer problems -of higher complexity generated by each claim. -- Not unlike 'The Fact check' done after 'Presidential debate'.
Thanks a lot to Sangam Talks, Nilesh Oak and Dr Manish Pandit for presenting this wonderful discussion in very scholarly manner. I am not qualified to make any comments on the content of the talk, however, we need to have more such interactions to understand our past on scientific basis.
It was a very good debate, to watch, to learn , to understand the topic as well as the vad tradition ( वाद परंपरा ) This must be watched by all the youth to understand how profound our intellectual tradition is.
Thank you. BTW, do recognize that what we (Sangam Talks, Dr. Manish Pandit, and myself) are doing here are baby steps. There is still a long way to go. And this requires intelligent participation of the audience, too.
@@NileshOak Sir, thank you very much for your prompt response. Really delighted to read response from you. I really wish to actively participate as audience and also spreading this and all thoroughness of our literature and culture. Actually, after listening to that debate I listened to your three videos in sequence and just now watching the video scientific Acumen. One request, if I can get your email id it will be a great pleasure.
Before, I say a word about the debate or debaters or their conclusions. I must admit my total ignorance about astronomy especially Nakshatra and Jyotish. I am now thoroughly confused by the equally weighty evidences and logics provided by both. Great Debate. Finally, I got to one conclusion that I must first learn basic astronomy to understand this debate. :-)
Highly impressive research, Nilesh! At least you have a theory, methods, and texts to conduct your research according to. (The cartoon-joke is inspired from Rabia of Bashra, 718-801 CE, searching for her needle outdoors).
A very good debate.. I could not understand even 10% of it.. But still didnt lose interest in it.. That itself tells about the richness of the debate.. Thank you Nilesh..
Great intellect ... great debate👍👍👏👏 Rebuplic Tv debate ... poochta hai Bharat... i am still in confusion that bloody Arnab is debating or quarreling... n who wants to know is still a question????? n who care is another question🤣🤣🤣🤣
I want both you to be consistent with your time line and give us a scientific or atleast logical timeline. Very Good debate, best wishes to both of you, hope to see you soon in another debate.
18:30 -- what coincidence that 19.11.2021 is the same lunar eclipse on Kartik Purnima where Vyasa would have met Dhritrashtra, thousands of years ago. Can't thank Dr. Pandit and Shri. Oak for this scintiallating discussion! Pranaam!
In the end it will boil down to the issue of predictive capability. For the work of Manish Pandit, since they have chosen a certain set of data and built a theory (or shown a possibility of a timeline that works for the chosen data, a regression model on the chosen data), the fit has to be now shown to predict something else that was not included in the fitting data. So that is why a clear statement of theory is necessary to test if it can predict something 'outside'. This will turn out to be a serious flaw.
Chidambaram Narayanan Actually, do check my work on the theory of 3067BCE including the free book and the other short films to understand that I have actually proved the 4 timelines of the war which has not been done in 5561BCE. Moreover do check out my other films. Our theory is our position statement.
This is the best comment of all. Yet, it is lost on the audience. In fact, this is the takeaway of part 1. Yet, folks are going all over. This is of course due to much ignorance, tamas, and unwillingness to do any Tapasya combined with lack of scientific acumen, logical reasoning, and Vyapti-Jnana. Thank you Chidambaram Narayanan.
The 'outside' would still be inside the MBH as there are no contemporaneous texts, and that data is already being ignored by Dr Manish. There are limits to how far the scientific method can be carried in such matters.
Thank you. It will be useful if you could explain your rationale behind your decision. Otherwise, there is no dearth of individuals who make their decisions purely on emotions. Thanks.
@@NileshOak Namaste Sir. For me the answer is easy as to why I would favour your dates. You have used most of the evidences( 300+) from the Mahabharath to come up to 5561 BCE whereas the other theory used just a few to explain their dating. 🙏
@@jerryramdin1460 Thanks. To make it worse.... The other claim (3067 BCE) does not show how it arrived at 3067 BCE. Rather it assumes 3067 BCE is the correct answer and then looks for anything that would fit 3067 BCE (clutching at the last straw) and not surprisingly end up finding 1-2 pieces ...which in turn lead to additional contradictions. A royal sorry state!
Brilliant, Nilesh! A great and engrossing debate by both. Arudhati Vashishta is a Binary Star system, wherein they revolve around each other. In the southern states, after the wedding ceremonies, the couple are asked to look at Arundhati-Vashishta as the most ideal relationship between the newly married couple where their married life revolves around the other.
Thank you. AV is a binary or quaternary star system. However, this fact has no relevance whatsoever to the phenomenon of Arundhati walking ahead of Vasishtha, described by Vyadadeva in the Mahabharata text. The unique phenomenon of Arundhati walking ahead of Vasistha from 11091 BCE/10248 BCE through 5636/4508 BCE and only during this time interval is due to the phenomenon of the precession of the Earth's axis combined with proper motions of Arundhati (Alcor) and Vasistha (Mizar).
Nilesh Oak ji, As per your research time of Ramayan is around 12209 BC and Mahabharat is 5561 BC. We know from our scriptures that Avtars generally come near the end of a Yuga, as after the War of Mahabharat and going of Lord Krishna Dwapar yud ended and Kaliyug started. So that gives time duration of Dwapar Yug as 12209 - 5561 = 6648 years. We can approximate it to 7000 years. So if duration of Dwapar Yug was of 7000 years then duration of Kaliyug should be less than or equal to it as in traditional dating each succeeding Yug is having half time duration than previous. So that would make maximum time duration of Kaliyug to be 7000 years. Now Kaliyug started some years after Mahabharat war. So as per your timeline of Mahabahart around 5561 BC, Kaliyug would have started around 5500 BC. Taking its maximum duration to be 7000 years Kaliyug should have ended around 1500 AD. And after 1500 AD, new Yug of Satyug should have started. Now can we say that Satyug started after 1500 AD seeing the brutalities of Islamic rulers like Aurangzeb, Tipu Sultan after 1500 AD. Can we say today that we are in Satyug ?? Now this time of ending of Kaliyug to be 1500 AD is when we have considered the duration of Kaliyug to be its maximum possible (7000 years) as per Chronology of Ramayan & Mahabharat given by you. If we take time duration of Kaliyug to be less then it would have ended much before 1500 AD. So the time of Mahabharat and Ramayan given by you is not looking satisfactory and timeline given by Mr Pandit for Mahabharat - 3067 BC is looking more convincing to explain the Yugas Cycle.
To substantiate further, in the above, to supplement the FIRST issue, both learned Scholars could consider a reference in Vana Parva : “Star Abhijin has fallen from the sky (from pole star position)”. This could very well settle the first issue : The Millenium dating (Xxxx).
Great work. I have been following you for more than two years now. We appreciate your keen interest in this field and painstaking work you took for decades. All your readers and listeners will be indebted to you. Above all, I like that you are open to all the scientific discovery and will your position if need be. Having said that I have a couple of question: 1. First one is about two conflicting observation (a. Timing of Krishna’s peace mission b. Balrama Tirthyatra). Do you have a plausible theory on why is this? - Could it be because that these verses were added later as there are many versions of Mahabharata and only around 80K verses are common in all (Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute)? 2. I am still not convinced about the explanation you provided regarding the observation of Arundhati walking ahead of Vashistha being inauspicious which can be considered short with respect to million years. You very aptly date the period between 11091-4508 BCE and it is consistent with latest derived date 10248 - 4636 BCE using Hubble telescope observations. If this period is described as inauspicious and maybe Rishi Vyasa found it appropriate to mention it because this long period (around 6K years) may have been marred with conflicts and strife. While digesting this fact about for such a long-long period is not easy but I will let it go. Therefore, my question is why is Arundhati ahead of Vashistha is considered inauspicious and was this long-long period really inauspicious? If yes, then why and how?
Thank you. Have you read my books? Please see my brief responses to your 2 questions, below: 1. Wait for Part 2 and 3 to know the answer to your first question. The reasons for this deviation can be many and I mention them in my books/blogs and in this debate. However, the best way to handle them, science-speak, is via Truthlikness/Verisimilitude Score. 2. My theory has nothing about the auspiciousness or inauspiciousness of AV observation. It is the 'Strawman fallacy' created by other Mahabharata researchers (including Prof. Narahari Achar or Dr. Manish Pandit) because they can not explain it (either astronomically or its inauspicious aspect) for their timeline, e.g. 3067 BCE or any claim after 4636 BCE. This is why the knowledge of Nyyaya-Darshana /logical reasoning and specific elements of Jalpa-Vitanda-Hetvabhasa-chhala-Jati is required.
@@NileshOak Thank you for replying. I haven't read your books for fear that It would too technical and I do not have enough background to read it. While I have read a few of your blogs and listened to many of your videos which is providing the technical grounding that may be needed. Once I feel equipped enough and am pushed to read the book I surely will do. These days I have been mostly reading on Vedas and epics.
Additional note related to your question #2 The inauspicious aspect or omen aspect (or translation of Nimitta as Omen, instead of 'Sign' or 'factual astronomy situation in the sky') is the Strawman of other MBH researchers (that includes Prof. Achar and Dr. Manish Pandit). They have to explain the Omen aspect of it since they insist on the identification of AV observation as an omen. All the astronomy observations of Udyoga Parva, Bhishma Parva, Drona Parva, Karna Parva, Shalya Parva are omens too. Why did they not ignore those observations but only AV? This is because they can not explain AV observation for their claimed year. This is known as 'Strawman fallacy.' -- Many such fallacies can be raised. The onus is on the one who claims such an identification. e.g One may ask if AV observation is valid for a long time, why it is not mentioned in Udyoga Parva or Virata Parva or Drona Parva Why is it lumped with short term observation of the full moon? or medium-term observation of Saturn or short-medium term observation of a plausible eclipse? These are all Strawmen. And if someone wants to raise such issues, they have to address them for their claims. -- Reading further on Logical fallacies + Nyayadarshana Jalpa-Vitanda-Hetvabhasa-chhala_jati would help. Warm regards,
@@NileshOak Thank you again, sir, for replying. I know I have to read but I fear your books are too technical and will be difficult to understand. What book would you recommend of yours or other to dive into such matter? I mean which can help in understanding the astronomical pieces of evidence.
The clinching issue here would be deciding on the Millennium date First : whether is it 5xxx or 3xxx BC. Mr Nilesh has put forward, what appears convincing, the AV phenomenon. Second, using only verses which contain both Seasonal reference and Lunar tithi or Nakshatra one can arrive at the probable century or century-range. ( say x9xx to x7xx BC). Third, assigning Decadal or Yearly dates can be done using simple planetary, nakshatra and month references (viz . Krishna’s departure for Sandhana or Balarama’s Yatra etc). Presently the other learned Scholar appears to be insisting on the third point rather than addressing the first two points. The outcome can be fruitful only by addressing the first two points, then fine tune for the third with mutual consensus. More importantly any reference other than that contains Both : Season and Lunar thithi should be shunned as main evidence.
@@yogeshroy9913 ok, what's a gibberish of a commie is doing here in the middle of a debate about the Mahabharata war,where they themselves consider the Mahabharat to be a mythical story??
@@priyan9shu Just because I've called out your ignorance, it doesn't make me a commie. If you have read Mahabharata or have basic knowledge about astronomy you would've known Oak's statements, assumptions and inferences are absolutely wrong. The other guy's procedure is more correct, statements are logical. You just saw a pic of mahathugbandhan started following him without understanding a bit.
@@yogeshroy9913 Oh really! How long did it take you to consider that I'm following him just because of this mahagathbandan pic?? Maybe a second...Get out of our own prejudices..watch the session and learn why he showed the pic in his presentation. You know, it doesn't matter if his claims are false..because you think so....Next time try not to judge a man by looking at a comment. And sorry because you must have been offended by that pic, that's hurting you since the Lokshabha election...I feel for you. Lastly, i have been following Nilesh since last year because there is scientific backing to his theories, try to watch his other videos once you get out of your hangover. Good luck 👍
@@priyan9shu 😃😃 You praised the pic. Oak's 'theory' doesn't have any scientific basis. That's why he is targeting your prejudices with that pic. Every statement made by him is wrong. According to Mahabharata at that time Arundhati following Vashishtha was the norm (chapter 2, Bhisma Parva) He stated Jupiter in Sharvana and Saturn in Purvaphalguni can be described as "near Vishakha"!!😂😂 Purvaphalguni is around 53° and Sharavana is around 66° away from Vishakha. Don't you know middle school geometry to understand how much distance is that on a circle?? Nobody describes moon 3 days before and after of Purnima as full moon..... Read Mahabharata, learn some basic science. Don't ridicule our scriptures.
Debate based on facts and regirous methodology traditional Indian style is to be encouraged not only to arrive at concusive truth but as much to encourage scientific thinking.What appears to me of interest is that during that era all impotant actions were based upon astrological inference .
If Mahabharat was in 3000 odd bce wouldnt it be same persiod as indus valley civilization ? How would you exppain that ? I think even 5000 bce they would be similar time zone...
Indus Valley Civilzation nomeclature is based on Aryan Migration theory which is fake and has been debunked by many reserachers. What we call Indus valley civilzation is the continuation of the same Bharatiy civilzation which is there at times of Ramayan and Later Mahbharat. Indus Valley Civilization is not some other civilzation which is diffrenet from the civilzation at the time of Mhabharat. Whatever sites of that Era Modern reserachers excavated during British times they named them as Indus Valley Civilization
An assumption is not an establishment. 5561BCE has more astronomical evidence and also corroborative evidences in favour of it. Fore enthusiasts like me, these debates are good as they will lead us to the right date. As of now I'd have to accept Nilesh's evidences have more weight than the others.
3162BCE is an impossibility. 3067BCE corroborates all 4 timelines including Balarama’s pilgrimage which is very difficult to corroborate along with planetary positions. It also establishes Moonphases which are difficult to establish for most researchers.
I would like both of u to read work of Dr Vedveer Arya and then comment anything. Even Nilesh had done many errors which are pointed out by Dr Vedveer in his work. Nilesh's interpretations of many sholkas is erroneous probably due to not having complete knowledge of Sanskrit grammar. And the interesting fact is no one is mentioning anything about the Ahihole Inscription which is solif rock evidence of the Mahabharata war
@@SaraswatiFilms , The other side already forecast victory for self. Which tradition of Vada, it is? Where is Uvaya Bharati, I mean the arbiter? Regards.🙏
Superb discussion. But even birth chart of krishna will help isn't it. How is submergence of dwarika explained..also rise in sea level occured around 10000 to 11000 yrs ago.
APARNA DEO Pranaam. I have indeed got the birth chart of Sri Krishna, Balarama, Bhima, Yudhisthira and Abhimanyu. It’s in my next book. Check my blog which gives links to my free book as well as some more detail on answers as well as my videos on YT on Saraswati films: astronomyofindia.wordpress.com
@Nilesh oak ji, I have a question,please shre your thought on geeta jayanti/mokshda ekadasi, actually according to the folklore on this date Mahabharata war started and Sri Krishna bhagwanJi shared the divine wisdom with Sri Arjun.but according to you it was amavasya. Please enlighten us all. Thankyou so much for your service and devotion to the ancient cultural timeline of Indic civilization.🙏
Mr. Manish Pandit, you did your starting claim & its explanation so much complicated that it is really difficult to understand as compare to Mr. Nilesh Oak
You should also do research on time span left for kalyug because time which is said that is 4,32,000 total years of kalyug but in manusmriti and Garuda Purana there is written that every yuga is of 5000 years only . So can u tell exactly how many year's are there in a yuga including present yug that is kalyug if u can please put light on that also your research are great good job keep it up thanks 👍👌
Excellent presentation of both the theories. It's really mind blowing. I hope theories will disappear soon to become common storyline (factual) very soon. Thanks alot for this for both of you.
I have one serious question to both the scholars, In the time line mentioned, is it possible to prepare for war of this magnitude considering the logistics involved in just 2 to 3 months?. I would say impossible even modern times. Pl give it a thought. After Srikrishna's mediation failed to stop the war, given kings and armies of various countries in the Bharatha varsha with horses, elephants, women folk, involved, it would take not less than an year, so to say for preparation.
"Can you explain that for 3067 Arundhati walking ahead of Vaishishtha out of Kurukshetra NOT Banglore because that's not where the war Took place!!! " .. Nilesh ji nailed it 😂😂😂 the other guy's face was like🙁😣 ... Listening this twice its clear that Nilesh Oak ji's Date of 5561 BC is CORRECT date.. And he spoke by Facts not talking here and there.. The Other guy was talking here and there and I saw much of arrogance in a way he put forth his theory.. Anyways.. What people forget here is that.. "The Geology and Hydrology evidences of River Saraswati going beneath the sand at Vinashana when Balaram began pilgrimage upwards Himalays happened only and only 7000-8000 yrs ago which Major Gen. GD Bakshi has confirmed in his book "THE SARASWATI Civilization " ..so in 3067 BC.. There was just a few patches left of Saraswati not the way its mentioned in Mahabharata.. So no way. Balaram could see river going beneath sand in 3067 BC because there was NO RIVER left!!! .. The Thumbnail was exactly named "Re-establishing the Tradition of VAADA" I think this might be our Bharat till 1000 years ago as Adi Shankaracharya made his Vaada -Vivaad -Samvaad across the country So .. What's your opinion let me know 😊😀👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇
Manish pandit started excellently and was very impressive but could not explain convincingly when NILESH started questioning his theory .So the first round goes to NILESH clearly
@@gurunathanramalingam5940 Hare Krishna. See the presentation. Oak's entire Moonphases are wrong. All his planetary positions are wrong. Would anybody have noticed Arundhati walking ahead of Vasisth if that was happening for 6000 years? So, the observation is only valid after 4500 BCE.
@@suhasinidasi3126 And how do you know it??? Have you done research YOURSELF its very easy to comment on someone... But it's another game to do it first.. Its his 25 YEARS of Research.. He has left his job and full time doing this research.. Have you even seeing the Dating of Ramayan Of Nilesh Oak???? His dates are UNCHALLENGED till now.. People just say.. "Are yeh toh nahi ho sakta.. Ram millions of years old hai.. " .. He has presented evidences from 18 DIFFERENT fields of Science and all corroborate his date 12,209 BC. About the other guy was just talking about eclipses again & again.. Without giving a clear Chart to us.. Of what exactly it is. Lokmanya Tilak had also reached around this date... The Arundhati Vaishishtha observation is the most Hard observation ..so hard to believe that most of Mahabharata researchers have not even bothered to look there because it becomes very INCONVENIENT... That's why they are searching where there is light..
Did not know, the tradition of Vada allows any Vadi can claim/forecast that he will win & other side will be defeated/crumbled. I think, it is a newly invented tradition of Vada, flowing from west, with one vadi being allowed to become a Judge/arbiter of his own cause. Here, I mean Vada as Sandhya Sambhasha. Even Vighrya Sambhasha does not allow a vadi to claim/forecast defeat of otherside & to become a Judge/arbiter in his own cause. Decide youself, who is doing what.🤔
Please share all such videos and also some on anciant science. I saw some slokas highlighting about nuclear physics too on you tube .The gentleman has quoted slokas which mean the same as some science discoveries.
Imagine a dream wherein someone is chasing and trying to hurt you, and you wake up all of a sudden. Your heartbeat is at its peak. In the above scenario, is the dream real, unreal or has it happened? On the physical plane (body) if we measure, only the heartbeat increase is seen. Some better measuring tools can show some brain activity. The question remains as to what has happened and has it happened. Mahabharata is known to have all the knowledge of the Vedas (Universe). So if you take any concept it has to be there is the epic. Let us see if Quantum mechanics is there in the epic. The dating of Mahabharata is an ongoing thing with each researcher coming up with a different date and having some points which support their observation. We see the Quantum mechanics principle of the act of observation affecting the outcome. So has Mahabharata happened? As you keep analysing this, it will make you question "the happening" itself. What does it mean to say that something has happened. This might sound crazy but as said Mahabharata should help us in understanding all the knowledge of the universe and this is a fundamental thing being questioned here. Our understanding of happening is limited and that needs to be corrected so that the question is answered itself. First, we have to be clear that not everything is happening in the physical plane and is visible. A celestial vision is needed to see things. Vyasa had given the vision briefly to Drupada (father of Draupadi) during the discussion if having five husbands is dharma, explaining the story behind it. Let us see an analogy for better understanding. If someone asks Is God there. The answer would depend on their existing understanding of God. That is the reason we have varied descriptions of God and as your understanding grows things become clear. The same has to be extended to happening. As is the case with the dream (happening inside a body) everything is happening within the entity called the Universe.
thanks for including the word regional languages thanks too for admitting Hindi is a regional language - it is the latest child this great piece of land has produced
Now I understand why it was so difficult before the Islamic invasions to enroll in Nalanda, Taxshasila, Ujjain, Sharadapeth universities.
True 😂
Stay tuned for future parts.
Enjoy the real-time illustration of 'तेल गेले तूप गेले, हाती राहिले धुपाटणे' as 3067 BCE collapses on its own contradictions.
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I want to thank the entire Sangam Talks team (Sarayu Trust) and Dr. Manish Pandit for their contributions in making this event happen. There are many other individuals to thank, however, I do not know their names (SM handles).
If you want to get maximum out of this debate (Part 1 and future parts), watch this episode multiple times and write down your critique for both claims and arguments (and responses) from both sides.
The implication of this attempt to revive/revitalize the Indic tradition of Vaada is enormous. But it is only potential at this point. No one will able to hide behind their titles and decorations and popularity. All the claims for the events of Indian history must be put forward for their analysis, evaluation to detect naivety, dogma, fraud, unscientific arguments, and illogical reasonings.
Cheers!
Sir, you are a genius 🙏, i can only dream of becoming as good as you are 😇
Thanks sir !
"Satyameva Jayate"
Yes Nilesh Ji... I have written all your Proofs for Mahabharata and Ramayan in a Book.. I have already memorized the shlokas like. "Brahmarashirvishudhasya Shudhasya Paramarshya... Archishmanth prakashante Dhruvam Sarvee Pradakshinam" .. "Panchyashatam sshatchakrupravira shesham dinanam tava jeevitasya" ..and many more.. I told my Father he's a Shri Rama Bhakt.. About this.. But he says its "Millions of years old" 😌 thanks for your work.. Really.. Im also from Pune.. If you have any event here in future let us know on Twitter 😊 Namaskar🙏
I am just speechless.
Regardless of who is right , it is this kind of erudite scholarly debates that our schools; colleges and Universities should compulsorily embrace to bring forth a genuine intellectual curiosity and seriousness in every walk of our education. I have had my education up to post graduation and have not even once had the fortune to witness such a stimulating debate. How can anyone not be fired with great interest towards any subject after listening to these stalwarts ? It is not necessary that one should be right , both could be wrong because we are determining dates of an event that happened 5 millennia away based on astronomical and circumstantial references. But such a rewarding and enlightening debate cannot be lost on any listeners mind. I wish Sangam Talks are made part of our Educational curriculum in order for our young learners to appreciate what it means to gain a scholarly outlook!
Sir ,As long as Hinduism is pushed back by organised vote looters and political scavangers it's difficult to bring such things in to books. Tarka ,memamsa,etc were parts of learning. Any thing everything that highlights anciant knowledge is Hindutva.
Only when this attitude is killed ,real wisdom dawns.
Let's do it. Share and educate youth and school at home.
Schools never support as bloody word secularism is in our constitution.
That was widely prevalent in Indian pathasalas and Universities before we got colonised.
@@getdrvasuyes sir.
Now communists,,Congress,other opposition are democratically killing Hinduism. Do we need democracy for getting our culture and civilization to be destroyed?
Please share your views strongly
We need to fight ..
@@Ramarao-dq8mfWe can recreate our system of learning and research, and rediscover out ancient knowledge by studying our relevant materials in depth and in organised manner. It doesn't need to depend on government or politicians, thus they won't be able to meddle with it with their half knowledge or stupidity.
Man.... I know nilesh oak quite a long! He is really talented, desperate, quite, genuine guy. He has taken lot of hard works to put this theory! Now this is the best thing they are having VADA not DEBATE! This is the Indian culture. I have seen the Mr pandit side too. They both claimed. Now to look up parameters to decide exact year not a era>3.here's only a one round and I m looking forward for VADA. Its so delicate to handle such a conversation with healthy way! They are doing it. Good keep it up. But there is no doubt that they are not only stories, something more!
Am really impressed with the poise of both speakers.. This is how debate should be
Oh My God this is the real Mahabharata of the wits and the wisdom 🙏🙏💪💪😎😎
A decent way of intellectuals contesting each other without bloodshed
Because there is no 'adikaprasangi' anchor to butt in every few seconds to show his mug in the TV camera & interrupt both causing general irritations & choppings off the thread of conversation.
Thank you Sangam Talks, Nileshji and Manishji. I hope all of you will be very proud 20-30 years down the line once, after getting inspiration from this event, our next generation takes onboard this tradition of Vada.
This round was fire. Waiting for more rounds.
Immensely thank you to Nilesh ji, MM ji, Rahul ji and Sangam Talks/Sarayu Trust for this Vada.🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Kudos to both the scholars. Great effort..let there be full-fledged study of the Mahabharata across the education institutes of India 🇮🇳
I am going to loop this video and watch it again and again until the second part is released. Both the legends are awesome. It's lion vs lion 🦁 vs 🦁. The one which has Krishna on his side wins ❤️❤️❤️🔥🔥🔥
Excellent presentation by both speakers. After the cross-examination, I can only say that whatever the date might be, 5661 BC or 3067 BC, it only speaks volumes about how advanced we were in ancient times in terms of astronomy and every other aspect of life.
Hare Krishna. I would like to congratulate both speakers for an engaging debate. I especially would like to thank Dr Manish Pandit for his brilliant and logical presentation and explanation of the timeline for Lord Krishna's mission of peace and Lord Balram's pilgrimage. May HH Bhaktivedanta Swami bless us all.
Suhasini dasi Many thanks for your feedback. The references of the Mahabharata can only point to one particular year 3067BCE (I am aware that many ISKCON followers have 3139BCE in mind which I prove wrong on my astronomyofindia.wordpress.com blog ) as the AV observation can only become visible as an omen in the 4500BCE to 1000BCE phase. In that period, resolution for the 34 references of planetary positions must start with Saturn as its slowest moving. Only 4 shlokas exist for it and so one must find the exact explanations for each shloka. Then Mars must tally and there are only two Shlokas which refer to it explicitly. Then three verses referring to Jupiter and so on. Each must be shown with explanations as they are mutually contradictory. I have found the secret to each verse and it’s on my book. Then the Moonrise references and Moonphase must be established and back counted and forward counted. If this is not done, one lands up in severe difficulties. I have accounted perfectly for those Moonphases and you can find additional resources on those in my YT channel and in my free book. Thanks for your encouragement and Jai Shri Rama! Pranaam and Dhanyawaad.
@@SaraswatiFilms Hare Krishna. Thanks for responding. I found your explanation of the 14th night Moonrise was very logical. Even before the video of this debate was online, a guest speaker at our mission was talking about how scientific the Mahabharata was and he had mentioned this Moonrise and how Krishna's wisdom prevailed on Bhima's son. In fact, I stayed awake last year looking at the sky on the 12th to 15th days near sunset in both the bright and dark half of the Moon to check those Moonrises after getting a translation from Swamiji. That was an Ah Ha moment when I realised that the 14th warday Moonrise was only possible during the late night during the waning phase. Your work is amazing and I hope that it will be shown at all ISKCON missions. May HH Bhaktivedanta Swami bless you with further such accurate insight so you may uncover the mysteries of Lord Krishna .
🙏 Thank you so much for conducting this debate.
After viewing Nilesh talks, I commented; We are too Naive and unskilled to reach conclusion whether Right or not. Like Shashtrarth, Such things must be debated among Team of S M E of Mahabharat, Astronomy, Sanskrit to Test-Verify on various 'Kasauti' to come to conclusion.
Bring us complete debate, feeling unsatisfied, by terminating debate so abruptly in the middle without conclusion.
Do more such Debates among Exerts.
Well said ....We need an Umpire who knows both Astrology and Sanskrit.....He/she can put more questions or make more clarifications from both of them.....In this scenario both are saying their argument is true by throwing away the real questions.........But still a good debate..
Finally u guy's going to upload this video! I am eagerly waiting 💖
I am very convinced of all claims ! Let's put it in TEXT BOOKS .I AM CONVINCED BY NILESH NILKANTH OAK MAHABHARAT
Absolutely great and I'm speechless.
It's my first time, I watched "a sane vada" and I love it.
Nilesh sir is marvellous and Manish sir is giving a tough fight.
Waiting for second portion & third portion.🙏🙏🙏
हम आपको ह्रदय से नमन करते हैं, आप सनातन संस्कृति और धर्म के स्वाभिमान को पुनः परमवैभव को प्राप्त करवा रहे हैं
This is the manner of debate of Shankaracharya and generations of seers. Thanks Sangam Talks
I'm just happy this amazing vada is happening. Very enriching. Thank you, Mr Nilesh and Mr Manish.
Thanks to Nilesh Oak and Sangam Talks for making the debate happen. I have corroborated the 4 timelines of the war, planetary combinations and other points pretty much for the modified theory of 3067BCE. This theory is rock solid and near perfect now, my other short videos and free book show why 3067BCE is the only realistic year of the war.
Thank you. And if there is enough interest/response (let's say Million+ views), we may ask Sangam Talks if they want to do Part 4 that we could not do due to time constraints (on 19 Jan 2020) to do it via Zoom, and then upload in RUclips.
Nilesh Oak Pranaam. Better still, we can do this debate at another point face to face as round 4 next year maybe.
@@SaraswatiFilms That make sense but a request to refrain from calling others theory/findings as absurd. that is a personal attack on the other side... As Nilesh said it is better to AGREE TO DISAGREE. And one more request if a question is asked let the answer be completed. Do not cut the speaker in the middle... Thanks and Pranamam
@@SaraswatiFilms My Respectful Namaste Sir. A small doubt. In your theory you say of a Celestial Body with Shika (a tail) cutting through the Saptarshi Mandala. Can we take that planet to be Guru? Because Guru is a Pandit And he has a Shika. And even if Guru is not that big enough being the biggest planet of our Solar System. The vision from the Earth would have been seen to Cut through. Thank you Sir. Please reply if this question is valid. Thank you Sir 🙏🙏🙏 Your contribution towards dating has been immense.
Victory Defeat Pranaam. Very interesting question. Unfortunately this is an impossibility. No graha except comets have a shikha.
Either hiding or penetrating Saptarishi mandala is impossible for either Jupiter or Saturn from near Vishakha. I know because I tried initially 12 years back to reconcile this sort of idea... luckily I realised that it was wrong otherwise I too would have come to erroneous conclusions. Ask any person what is the significance of Saturn at Rohini or check my free 250+ page book for more. Also check: ruclips.net/video/mLceUJnXydg/видео.html
A very good initiative . Only through internal discussion we can get the best theory and then we as Hindus can challenge the whole world with that.
Looking forward more Vad like this.. our antient tradition which is gonna Inspire the youth and also gonna increase their understanding about our ancient history and knowledge.. Naman to both 🙏🙏
Salute to both researchers .. for me Nilesh looks more confident in his research ..
No one can imagine such a wonderful debate on such topics. This is Called Veda Gyan. Thank you to both the speakers for enlighten us with your wonderful research. I as a technology person little bit seems biased towards Dr. Nilesh Logics though, but at least i learned that anyone can disagree with me. Thats a great learning.
Amazing Mahagyani Nileshji. Very well explained. I wish I was younger and attending your every lectures. Maybe in my next avatar.
Great discussion between two great scholars. To resolve dispute between two thought processes it is mandatory that both scholars check each others findings. Dr Pandit has so far shown data of 1. Karna srikrishna meet 2. Balrama yatra 3. Date of start of war. He must verify data of mr oak for 300+ observation as claimed by mr oak. And mr oak must verify data given by mr Pandit. Nobody can use canned data, that is selective data for making claims. But discussion is interesting.
Saie corp Kindly read my free 258 page book on this entire topic to understand more. Corroborated every timeline of the war, most observations and debunked entire theories of other scholars here:
ruclips.net/video/mLceUJnXydg/видео.html
@@SaraswatiFilms thank you, sir. Sure I will do that.
What is truly required now is for independent listeners to study, analyze and evaluate claims made by both of us (Dr. Manish Pandit and I) and test them for validation (translation, multiple interpretations, etc.) + objective testing + logical inferencing.
In addition, test each claim against the logic of the scientific method, elements of the scientific method, consistency, ability of each claim to preserve the successes (non-falsified) of the past, new predictions, validation of new predictions + newer problems -of higher complexity generated by each claim.
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Not unlike 'The Fact check' done after 'Presidential debate'.
First time i saw real shastrarth .. was waiting for it. Respect for both of you. Thank sangam talks🙏
Thanks a lot to Sangam Talks, Nilesh Oak and Dr Manish Pandit for presenting this wonderful discussion in very scholarly manner. I am not qualified to make any comments on the content of the talk, however, we need to have more such interactions to understand our past on scientific basis.
Very good debate. Although not conclusive nevertheless a fruitful one.
Wonderful... Really a very good vada - prativada. Feeling happy and proud. This is our culture.
It was a very good debate, to watch, to learn , to understand the topic as well as the vad tradition ( वाद परंपरा )
This must be watched by all the youth to understand how profound our intellectual tradition is.
Thank you. BTW, do recognize that what we (Sangam Talks, Dr. Manish Pandit, and myself) are doing here are baby steps. There is still a long way to go. And this requires intelligent participation of the audience, too.
@@NileshOak Sir, thank you very much for your prompt response. Really delighted to read response from you.
I really wish to actively participate as audience and also spreading this and all thoroughness of our literature and culture.
Actually, after listening to that debate I listened to your three videos in sequence and just now watching the video scientific Acumen.
One request, if I can get your email id it will be a great pleasure.
@@narendraapte2256 Thank you.
My email is: DrNO.5561BCE@gmail.com
really love the way they conduct the debate/discussion. It is a constructive one. It is equivalent to "SAMUDRAM-ANTHAN"
Samudra manthan.
Why is a debate equal to samudra manthan?
Please campaign to include Tarka Sangraha in basic curriculum for High School/Secondary students.
Before, I say a word about the debate or debaters or their conclusions. I must admit my total ignorance about astronomy especially Nakshatra and Jyotish. I am now thoroughly confused by the equally weighty evidences and logics provided by both. Great Debate. Finally, I got to one conclusion that I must first learn basic astronomy to understand this debate. :-)
Fantastic job
Done by both great people
Salute
Sangam Talks, Thanks very much for your great efforts in bringing to light the topics related to our culture.
I eagerly look forward to an authentic study at 4 p.m today!
Highly impressive research, Nilesh! At least you have a theory, methods, and texts to conduct your research according to. (The cartoon-joke is inspired from Rabia of Bashra, 718-801 CE, searching for her needle outdoors).
🙏🙏
Great and mutually respecting debate!
Satyamev Jayate !
What a debate. Kudos to both sons of bharat
Just excellent atmosphere
Kudos to efforts done in research by both
A very good debate.. I could not understand even 10% of it.. But still didnt lose interest in it.. That itself tells about the richness of the debate.. Thank you Nilesh..
Wonderful to watch great minds at work. Great job. One day they will come to an agreement.
Great intellect ... great debate👍👍👏👏
Rebuplic Tv debate ... poochta hai Bharat... i am still in confusion that bloody Arnab is debating or quarreling... n who wants to know is still a question????? n who care is another question🤣🤣🤣🤣
I want both you to be consistent with your time line and give us a scientific or atleast logical timeline. Very Good debate, best wishes to both of you, hope to see you soon in another debate.
True shashtrarth..... Jus unmatchable 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
18:30 -- what coincidence that 19.11.2021 is the same lunar eclipse on Kartik Purnima where Vyasa would have met Dhritrashtra, thousands of years ago. Can't thank Dr. Pandit and Shri. Oak for this scintiallating discussion! Pranaam!
@33:00 Point to Nilesh Ji
I like the discourses- agree or disagree .......great approach of discussion ......balanced and appreciation on both side ....
What a great discussion....looks like ancient shashtrartha..👏👏
Interesting way of reviving vaad!
I have a simple question for Pt. ji what about evidences of oceanography for sunken Dwarka time(i.e. 6000-5000BC)?
In the end it will boil down to the issue of predictive capability. For the work of Manish Pandit, since they have chosen a certain set of data and built a theory (or shown a possibility of a timeline that works for the chosen data, a regression model on the chosen data), the fit has to be now shown to predict something else that was not included in the fitting data. So that is why a clear statement of theory is necessary to test if it can predict something 'outside'. This will turn out to be a serious flaw.
Chidambaram Narayanan Actually, do check my work on the theory of 3067BCE including the free book and the other short films to understand that I have actually proved the 4 timelines of the war which has not been done in 5561BCE. Moreover do check out my other films. Our theory is our position statement.
@@SaraswatiFilms Will do so. Thank you.
This is the best comment of all. Yet, it is lost on the audience.
In fact, this is the takeaway of part 1. Yet, folks are going all over. This is of course due to much ignorance, tamas, and unwillingness to do any Tapasya combined with lack of scientific acumen, logical reasoning, and Vyapti-Jnana.
Thank you Chidambaram Narayanan.
The 'outside' would still be inside the MBH as there are no contemporaneous texts, and that data is already being ignored by Dr Manish. There are limits to how far the scientific method can be carried in such matters.
Pranam to both of you. Please arrive at some conclusion by agreeing on some exact date.
Superb Observations. I would still go by data of Neelesh ji. 5561 BC is what fits the astronomical data.
Thank you.
It will be useful if you could explain your rationale behind your decision.
Otherwise, there is no dearth of individuals who make their decisions purely on emotions.
Thanks.
@@NileshOak Namaste Sir.
For me the answer is easy as to why I would favour your dates. You have used most of the evidences( 300+) from the Mahabharath to come up to 5561 BCE whereas the other theory used just a few to explain their dating. 🙏
@@jerryramdin1460 Thanks.
To make it worse....
The other claim (3067 BCE) does not show how it arrived at 3067 BCE. Rather it assumes 3067 BCE is the correct answer and then looks for anything that would fit 3067 BCE (clutching at the last straw) and not surprisingly end up finding 1-2 pieces ...which in turn lead to additional contradictions.
A royal sorry state!
Brilliant, Nilesh! A great and engrossing debate by both.
Arudhati Vashishta is a Binary Star system, wherein they revolve around each other. In the southern states, after the wedding ceremonies, the couple are asked to look at Arundhati-Vashishta as the most ideal relationship between the newly married couple where their married life revolves around the other.
Thank you.
AV is a binary or quaternary star system. However, this fact has no relevance whatsoever to the phenomenon of Arundhati walking ahead of Vasishtha, described by Vyadadeva in the Mahabharata text.
The unique phenomenon of Arundhati walking ahead of Vasistha from 11091 BCE/10248 BCE through 5636/4508 BCE and only during this time interval is due to the phenomenon of the precession of the Earth's axis combined with proper motions of Arundhati (Alcor) and Vasistha (Mizar).
Nilesh Oak ji, As per your research time of Ramayan is around 12209 BC and Mahabharat is 5561 BC. We know from our scriptures that Avtars generally come near the end of a Yuga, as after the War of Mahabharat and going of Lord Krishna Dwapar yud ended and Kaliyug started. So that gives time duration of Dwapar Yug as 12209 - 5561 = 6648 years. We can approximate it to 7000 years. So if duration of Dwapar Yug was of 7000 years then duration of Kaliyug should be less than or equal to it as in traditional dating each succeeding Yug is having half time duration than previous. So that would make maximum time duration of Kaliyug to be 7000 years. Now Kaliyug started some years after Mahabharat war. So as per your timeline of Mahabahart around 5561 BC, Kaliyug would have started around 5500 BC. Taking its maximum duration to be 7000 years Kaliyug should have ended around 1500 AD. And after 1500 AD, new Yug of Satyug should have started. Now can we say that Satyug started after 1500 AD seeing the brutalities of Islamic rulers like Aurangzeb, Tipu Sultan after 1500 AD. Can we say today that we are in Satyug ?? Now this time of ending of Kaliyug to be 1500 AD is when we have considered the duration of Kaliyug to be its maximum possible (7000 years) as per Chronology of Ramayan & Mahabharat given by you. If we take time duration of Kaliyug to be less then it would have ended much before 1500 AD. So the time of Mahabharat and Ramayan given by you is not looking satisfactory and timeline given by Mr Pandit for Mahabharat - 3067 BC is looking more convincing to explain the Yugas Cycle.
Kaliyuga began on 2 November 5561 BCE, based on 400+ pieces of Mahabharata text evidence.
To substantiate further, in the above, to supplement the FIRST issue, both learned Scholars could consider a reference in Vana Parva : “Star Abhijin has fallen from the sky (from pole star position)”. This could very well settle the first issue : The Millenium dating (Xxxx).
Great work. I have been following you for more than two years now. We appreciate your keen interest in this field and painstaking work you took for decades.
All your readers and listeners will be indebted to you. Above all, I like that you are open to all the scientific discovery and will your position if need be.
Having said that I have a couple of question:
1. First one is about two conflicting observation (a. Timing of Krishna’s peace mission b. Balrama Tirthyatra). Do you have a plausible theory on why is this?
- Could it be because that these verses were added later as there are many versions of Mahabharata and only around 80K verses are common in all (Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute)?
2. I am still not convinced about the explanation you provided regarding the observation of Arundhati walking ahead of Vashistha being inauspicious which can be considered short with respect to million years.
You very aptly date the period between 11091-4508 BCE and it is consistent with latest derived date 10248 - 4636 BCE using Hubble telescope observations. If this period is described as inauspicious and maybe Rishi Vyasa found it appropriate to mention it because this long period (around 6K years) may have been marred with conflicts and strife. While digesting this fact about for such a long-long period is not easy but I will let it go. Therefore, my question is why is Arundhati ahead of Vashistha is considered inauspicious and was this long-long period really inauspicious? If yes, then why and how?
Thank you.
Have you read my books?
Please see my brief responses to your 2 questions, below:
1. Wait for Part 2 and 3 to know the answer to your first question. The reasons for this deviation can be many and I mention them in my books/blogs and in this debate.
However, the best way to handle them, science-speak, is via Truthlikness/Verisimilitude Score.
2. My theory has nothing about the auspiciousness or inauspiciousness of AV observation.
It is the 'Strawman fallacy' created by other Mahabharata researchers (including Prof. Narahari Achar or Dr. Manish Pandit) because they can not explain it (either astronomically or its inauspicious aspect) for their timeline, e.g. 3067 BCE or any claim after 4636 BCE.
This is why the knowledge of Nyyaya-Darshana /logical reasoning and specific elements of Jalpa-Vitanda-Hetvabhasa-chhala-Jati is required.
@@NileshOak Thank you for replying. I haven't read your books for fear that It would too technical and I do not have enough background to read it. While I have read a few of your blogs and listened to many of your videos which is providing the technical grounding that may be needed. Once I feel equipped enough and am pushed to read the book I surely will do. These days I have been mostly reading on Vedas and epics.
Additional note related to your question #2
The inauspicious aspect or omen aspect (or translation of Nimitta as Omen, instead of 'Sign' or 'factual astronomy situation in the sky') is the Strawman of other MBH researchers (that includes Prof. Achar and Dr. Manish Pandit).
They have to explain the Omen aspect of it since they insist on the identification of AV observation as an omen.
All the astronomy observations of Udyoga Parva, Bhishma Parva, Drona Parva, Karna Parva, Shalya Parva are omens too. Why did they not ignore those observations but only AV?
This is because they can not explain AV observation for their claimed year.
This is known as 'Strawman fallacy.'
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Many such fallacies can be raised. The onus is on the one who claims such an identification.
e.g One may ask if AV observation is valid for a long time, why it is not mentioned in Udyoga Parva or Virata Parva or Drona Parva
Why is it lumped with short term observation of the full moon? or medium-term observation of Saturn or short-medium term observation of a plausible eclipse?
These are all Strawmen. And if someone wants to raise such issues, they have to address them for their claims.
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Reading further on Logical fallacies + Nyayadarshana Jalpa-Vitanda-Hetvabhasa-chhala_jati would help.
Warm regards,
@@NileshOak Thank you again, sir, for replying. I know I have to read but I fear your books are too technical and will be difficult to understand. What book would you recommend of yours or other to dive into such matter? I mean which can help in understanding the astronomical pieces of evidence.
Great illuminating discussions...
Arjun Kulkarni
ruclips.net/video/vYnyC4AeKdk/видео.html
The clinching issue here would be deciding on the Millennium date First : whether is it 5xxx or 3xxx BC. Mr Nilesh has put forward, what appears convincing, the AV phenomenon. Second, using only verses which contain both Seasonal reference and Lunar tithi or Nakshatra one can arrive at the probable century or century-range. ( say x9xx to x7xx BC). Third, assigning Decadal or Yearly dates can be done using simple planetary, nakshatra and month references (viz . Krishna’s departure for Sandhana or Balarama’s Yatra etc). Presently the other learned Scholar appears to be insisting on the third point rather than addressing the first two points. The outcome can be fruitful only by addressing the first two points, then fine tune for the third with mutual consensus. More importantly any reference other than that contains Both : Season and Lunar thithi should be shunned as main evidence.
13:15 best part 😂😂, Nilesh Oak is a legend!
He is just appealing to 'bhakts' by that they accept his illogical/unscientific date due to ignorance
@@yogeshroy9913 ok, what's a gibberish of a commie is doing here in the middle of a debate about the Mahabharata war,where they themselves consider the Mahabharat to be a mythical story??
@@priyan9shu Just because I've called out your ignorance, it doesn't make me a commie. If you have read Mahabharata or have basic knowledge about astronomy you would've known Oak's statements, assumptions and inferences are absolutely wrong.
The other guy's procedure is more correct, statements are logical.
You just saw a pic of mahathugbandhan started following him without understanding a bit.
@@yogeshroy9913 Oh really! How long did it take you to consider that I'm following him just because of this mahagathbandan pic?? Maybe a second...Get out of our own prejudices..watch the session and learn why he showed the pic in his presentation. You know, it doesn't matter if his claims are false..because you think so....Next time try not to judge a man by looking at a comment. And sorry because you must have been offended by that pic, that's hurting you since the Lokshabha election...I feel for you.
Lastly, i have been following Nilesh since last year because there is scientific backing to his theories, try to watch his other videos once you get out of your hangover. Good luck 👍
@@priyan9shu 😃😃 You praised the pic.
Oak's 'theory' doesn't have any scientific basis. That's why he is targeting your prejudices with that pic.
Every statement made by him is wrong.
According to Mahabharata at that time Arundhati following Vashishtha was the norm (chapter 2, Bhisma Parva)
He stated Jupiter in Sharvana and Saturn in Purvaphalguni can be described as "near Vishakha"!!😂😂 Purvaphalguni is around 53° and Sharavana is around 66° away from Vishakha. Don't you know middle school geometry to understand how much distance is that on a circle??
Nobody describes moon 3 days before and after of Purnima as full moon.....
Read Mahabharata, learn some basic science. Don't ridicule our scriptures.
Enlightening discussion !
Wow... what a debate. Extraordinary
Great Debate 👍
40:30 Excellent Vaad, especially the end
The late night moonrise. Did it happen on the 15th day morning around 2:10am? or did it happen on the 14th day morning around 2:10am in the morning?
I am proud on my history 🚩
Debate based on facts and regirous methodology traditional Indian style is to be encouraged not only to arrive at concusive truth but as much to encourage scientific thinking.What appears to me of interest is that during that era all impotant actions were based upon astrological inference .
Sangam talks the best on you tube
If Mahabharat was in 3000 odd bce wouldnt it be same persiod as indus valley civilization ? How would you exppain that ? I think even 5000 bce they would be similar time zone...
Indus Valley Civilzation nomeclature is based on Aryan Migration theory which is fake and has been debunked by many reserachers. What we call Indus valley civilzation is the continuation of the same Bharatiy civilzation which is there at times of Ramayan and Later Mahbharat. Indus Valley Civilization is not some other civilzation which is diffrenet from the civilzation at the time of Mhabharat. Whatever sites of that Era Modern reserachers excavated during British times they named them as Indus Valley Civilization
Welcome
Hope it established its presence above 5000 BC. with archeological proof still awaited
Even if it is not 5000 BC, does that change anything.
@@sadenb no
And never
@@arundubey5410 To me all that matters is that Indus Saraswati and Vedic period are tied together.
3162 BCE is the year of Bharata war... already been established on the basis of astro-archaeological, ephigraphs and internal evidences.
An assumption is not an establishment. 5561BCE has more astronomical evidence and also corroborative evidences in favour of it. Fore enthusiasts like me, these debates are good as they will lead us to the right date. As of now I'd have to accept Nilesh's evidences have more weight than the others.
3162BCE is an impossibility. 3067BCE corroborates all 4 timelines including Balarama’s pilgrimage which is very difficult to corroborate along with planetary positions. It also establishes Moonphases which are difficult to establish for most researchers.
I would like both of u to read work of Dr Vedveer Arya and then comment anything. Even Nilesh had done many errors which are pointed out by Dr Vedveer in his work. Nilesh's interpretations of many sholkas is erroneous probably due to not having complete knowledge of Sanskrit grammar. And the interesting fact is no one is mentioning anything about the Ahihole Inscription which is solif rock evidence of the Mahabharata war
Siddhesh Soyane Pranaam. Please read my free book and check out my short films on my YT channel on the Mahabharata. This is already done and dusted.
@@SaraswatiFilms , The other side already forecast victory for self. Which tradition of Vada, it is? Where is Uvaya Bharati, I mean the arbiter? Regards.🙏
Wonderful
Waiting for next parts
Brilliant debate. That's how it should be like. 🙏
Superb discussion.
But even birth chart of krishna will help isn't it.
How is submergence of dwarika explained..also rise in sea level occured around 10000 to 11000 yrs ago.
APARNA DEO Pranaam. I have indeed got the birth chart of Sri Krishna, Balarama, Bhima, Yudhisthira and Abhimanyu. It’s in my next book. Check my blog which gives links to my free book as well as some more detail on answers as well as my videos on YT on Saraswati films:
astronomyofindia.wordpress.com
@Nilesh oak ji, I have a question,please shre your thought on geeta jayanti/mokshda ekadasi, actually according to the folklore on this date Mahabharata war started and Sri Krishna bhagwanJi shared the divine wisdom with Sri Arjun.but according to you it was amavasya. Please enlighten us all. Thankyou so much for your service and devotion to the ancient cultural timeline of Indic civilization.🙏
Namaskar
Please check out my youtube videos on Gita Jayanti.
Great work
Mr. Manish Pandit, you did your starting claim & its explanation so much complicated that it is really difficult to understand as compare to Mr. Nilesh Oak
Rahul Tambat Pranaam. You may like this short video of mine which has 179k FB views and clarifies matters:
ruclips.net/video/mLceUJnXydg/видео.html
You should also do research on time span left for kalyug because time which is said that is 4,32,000 total years of kalyug but in manusmriti and Garuda Purana there is written that every yuga is of 5000 years only . So can u tell exactly how many year's are there in a yuga including present yug that is kalyug if u can please put light on that also your research are great good job keep it up thanks 👍👌
My father watched it despite of knowing less of English, he said it would be great it this can be translate into hindi or marathi.
Hey, thanks a lot for uploading...
Have a discussion with mrugendra vinod who claims 3762 BCE.
niledh oak mentioned in some comments that he tried to talk to vinodji, but to no avail.
@@daruiraikage i am aware about that
mayuresh shelar where can he be contacted. I will put up a blog on his claim of 3762BCE on astronomyofindia.wordpress.com soon.
It's been two weeks. When are you going to upload the remaining parts?
Excellent presentation of both the theories. It's really mind blowing. I hope theories will disappear soon to become common storyline (factual) very soon. Thanks alot for this for both of you.
SHIVA SHANKAR Pranaam and Dhanyawaad. Do watch my other short videos on my YT channel and read my free book.
@@SaraswatiFilms definitely 🙏🙏
I have one serious question to both the scholars,
In the time line mentioned, is it possible to prepare for war of this magnitude considering the logistics involved in just 2 to 3 months?. I would say impossible even modern times. Pl give it a thought. After Srikrishna's mediation failed to stop the war, given kings and armies of various countries in the Bharatha varsha with horses, elephants, women folk, involved, it would take not less than an year, so to say for preparation.
The war preparations were going on for 13 years.
Awsummm debate
By the way it was a great debate, loved it
आपका आईना for more do check my free book and free videos on YT which are already viral on FB. ruclips.net/video/mLceUJnXydg/видео.html
"Can you explain that for 3067 Arundhati walking ahead of Vaishishtha out of Kurukshetra NOT Banglore because that's not where the war Took place!!! " ..
Nilesh ji nailed it 😂😂😂 the other guy's face was like🙁😣 ... Listening this twice its clear that Nilesh Oak ji's Date of 5561 BC is CORRECT date.. And he spoke by Facts not talking here and there.. The Other guy was talking here and there and I saw much of arrogance in a way he put forth his theory..
Anyways.. What people forget here is that.. "The Geology and Hydrology evidences of River Saraswati going beneath the sand at Vinashana when Balaram began pilgrimage upwards Himalays happened only and only 7000-8000 yrs ago which Major Gen. GD Bakshi has confirmed in his book "THE SARASWATI Civilization " ..so in 3067 BC.. There was just a few patches left of Saraswati not the way its mentioned in Mahabharata.. So no way. Balaram could see river going beneath sand in 3067 BC because there was NO RIVER left!!! .. The Thumbnail was exactly named "Re-establishing the Tradition of VAADA" I think this might be our Bharat till 1000 years ago as Adi Shankaracharya made his Vaada -Vivaad -Samvaad across the country
So .. What's your opinion let me know 😊😀👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇
Why do you disparage the second scholar as the other guy? I think he emerged equally strong and the debate is not concluded.
Manish pandit started excellently and was very impressive but could not explain convincingly when NILESH started questioning his theory .So the first round goes to NILESH clearly
In fact I thought that the first round went to Manish Pandit. Oak is not even showing any references.
@@gurunathanramalingam5940 Hare Krishna. See the presentation. Oak's entire Moonphases are wrong. All his planetary positions are wrong. Would anybody have noticed Arundhati walking ahead of Vasisth if that was happening for 6000 years? So, the observation is only valid after 4500 BCE.
@@suhasinidasi3126 And how do you know it??? Have you done research YOURSELF its very easy to comment on someone... But it's another game to do it first.. Its his 25 YEARS of Research.. He has left his job and full time doing this research.. Have you even seeing the Dating of Ramayan Of Nilesh Oak???? His dates are UNCHALLENGED till now.. People just say.. "Are yeh toh nahi ho sakta.. Ram millions of years old hai.. " ..
He has presented evidences from 18 DIFFERENT fields of Science and all corroborate his date 12,209 BC.
About the other guy was just talking about eclipses again & again.. Without giving a clear Chart to us.. Of what exactly it is. Lokmanya Tilak had also reached around this date...
The Arundhati Vaishishtha observation is the most Hard observation ..so hard to believe that most of Mahabharata researchers have not even bothered to look there because it becomes very INCONVENIENT... That's why they are searching where there is light..
Did not know, the tradition of Vada allows any Vadi can claim/forecast that he will win & other side will be defeated/crumbled. I think, it is a newly invented tradition of Vada, flowing from west, with one vadi being allowed to become a Judge/arbiter of his own cause. Here, I mean Vada as Sandhya Sambhasha. Even Vighrya Sambhasha does not allow a vadi to claim/forecast defeat of otherside & to become a Judge/arbiter in his own cause. Decide youself, who is doing what.🤔
I don't understand but I like the way they debate is on .....
Tremendous work!!!
Two rishi debate with eachother.....btw i am convinced with mr. Oak
Please share all such videos and also some on anciant science. I saw some slokas highlighting about nuclear physics too on you tube .The gentleman has quoted slokas which mean the same as some science discoveries.
Nilesh is using more deduction. Pandit ji is using more sabda direct from Mahabharat.
Imagine a dream wherein someone is chasing and trying to hurt you, and you wake up all of a sudden. Your heartbeat is at its peak.
In the above scenario, is the dream real, unreal or has it happened? On the physical plane (body) if we measure, only the heartbeat increase is seen. Some better measuring tools can show some brain activity. The question remains as to what has happened and has it happened.
Mahabharata is known to have all the knowledge of the Vedas (Universe). So if you take any concept it has to be there is the epic. Let us see if Quantum mechanics is there in the epic.
The dating of Mahabharata is an ongoing thing with each researcher coming up with a different date and having some points which support their observation. We see the Quantum mechanics principle of the act of observation affecting the outcome.
So has Mahabharata happened? As you keep analysing this, it will make you question "the happening" itself. What does it mean to say that something has happened. This might sound crazy but as said Mahabharata should help us in understanding all the knowledge of the universe and this is a fundamental thing being questioned here. Our understanding of happening is limited and that needs to be corrected so that the question is answered itself.
First, we have to be clear that not everything is happening in the physical plane and is visible. A celestial vision is needed to see things. Vyasa had given the vision briefly to Drupada (father of Draupadi) during the discussion if having five husbands is dharma, explaining the story behind it.
Let us see an analogy for better understanding. If someone asks Is God there. The answer would depend on their existing understanding of God. That is the reason we have varied descriptions of God and as your understanding grows things become clear. The same has to be extended to happening.
As is the case with the dream (happening inside a body) everything is happening within the entity called the Universe.
Two genius are on stage. Excellent work. Please bring this work in Hindi and other regional languages also.
thanks for including the word regional languages
thanks too for admitting Hindi is a regional language - it is the latest child this great piece of land has produced
Awesome 😍💥💥💥❤️