I don't wanna take anything away from this game. Final Fantasy XVI is clearly a labor of love, and Creative Business Unit 3 should be proud of their achievement. But the point of critiquing is to aim for perfection, and there's a lot about the experience that could have been better. I hope you like the video! I ended up taking a break from working on my Xenoblade 3 critique to do this video. The XC3 script has been a backbreaking project (though I'm getting close now) and I kind of needed to remember what it felt like to work on a video while the feelings were still fresh. One of the major problems I face is that because my production cycle is so slow, I usually end up working on scripts about games I played a year ago. And doing this video has reminded me of just how great it feels to strike while the iron is hot. Next, the plan is to finish my Xenoblade 3 critique, but it's possible I'll prioritize the Chrono Trigger retrospective instead. Whatever keeps me sane. Thanks for watching, and thanks for supporting me! Let me know what you thought of the video and how you felt about the game. And if you have any questions or suggestions for me, I’d love to hear them! You folks are the reason I keep making content. 😍
I'm not as convinced it was a labor of love to the franchise's fans as much as it was a labor of ego to themselves. Starting with interviews, Yoshi-p said they made this an action game because that's what they wanted to play, so that's what they made. It wasn't because it was what the fanbase was asking/hoping for by any stretch and he tried to drag along the detractors with the pity jewelry that auto dodges, as if they figured they thought the reason we didn't like these games is that we couldn't keep up. The game isn't ever remotely challenging and it's often a spectacle we're forced to just watch, as if to say, "WoW, look how good we are at making stuff flashy!" I'm used to watching a little more than playing ever since FFX, but the ratio here is way off. What's worse is the story is very poor. It's told in these three time-skip intervals where basically nothing happens during those periods. First Clive is a nameless soldier doing nameless soldier things until the day he finally meets Shiva. Next, they changed base locations. No mother crystals down, no plans to move ahead, it's just 5 or whatever years later. We don't even see any positive effects of having destroyed the first one! It feels like it's meant to drive home that this is an epic tale that takes place across the full prime of a man's life, but it's incredibly hollowed out. "Look at our epic writer, she can handle such large scope!" Except it falls short at nearly every chance it has to be interesting. Unfortunately, Clive is just boring, he's really giving Snow a run for his money as the worst "hero" we've gotten to play. But at least he's gritty and angry/brooding all the time so we feel the edginess! We wouldn't want any moments of levity in a final fantasy game, even if literally every one I can think of has that. Even Tactics has that! It's missing so many staples and fails to understand why the symbols they included have meaning that, once again, we come back to this feeling like a work of ego, and I am hoping it performs below expectations to check that ego. The fans they lost from the series they managed to make up in action game players, but they released a very shallow and average game in that attempt as well. I'm not sure how many will be coming back if they try action combat again.
Preface: I like Final Fantasy 16 a lot, but I have to agree with a lot of the more critical sentiments. I see no reason why the game couldn't have had a party. Your with party members a lot, and they use the same eikons you do. Why couldn't you have played as Jill with Shiva's powers, or Cid with Ramuh's, or Dion with Bahumat's? I don't think it's even a stretch to say that a character like Gav could have inherited the power of one of the villain dominants. Having them form an actual party would have made them feel much more crucial to the story, and could have had more interactions during sidequests and dungeons, maybe along the lines of what can be found in the FFVII remake's character interactions. That game's sidequests are a massive boring chore, but I found them more fun than 16's because they had more interactions with the core cast
Yep, I’d have been totally onboard with that setup. I also would have accepted a system where Clive can call upon the assistance of his allies in battle through a system similar to how Torgal works, but with more impactful actions. It would have been really badass if you built up some kind of meter in battle and once it hit max you could tag Jill in to smash the enemy with a Shiva ultimate. Also agree on your point about FF7R’s side quests lol. Weak content, but the character interaction made them worth it.
Brother, this is a very great video summarizing what I felt during and after finishing Final Fantasy 16. Every words you say, I completely agree and you have said it beautifully without sounding off as condescending or looking down on the game. I have been looking forward to this game way before they announced because of the previous series not meeting my expectations. The game is very well done but could have really done better. I was disappointed enough to hear the news that this was going to be a solo MC, not able to control teammates, but I just brush it off, knowing how good Ryota is in making action combat system. But I was even more devastated that while I was playing the game, exploration is not rewarded very well. I truly lost motivation after I had arrived at Velcroy Dessert. Its a big place with nothing to do except from moving from point A to point B. I truly hated it when I walk far and wide just to be rewarded with 5 Gil. It is infuriating. And just as you said, there is no point in engaging with monsters and I am glad to be able to put away Clive's sword away as soon as Im done with the game. No point in replaying any of it as I already made sure I did all the things I needed to before facing off Ultima
This analysis captured so much of what I felt. I really liked the game at a lot of points, but just had frequent moments of disappointments, many of which you articulated perfectly. There were so many payoffs they could have made but didn't. Also, I was bothered probably an unreasonable amount by the lack of ability to explore the major cities in the game. Walking up to the gates of Oriflamme only to never really get to go there was so disappointing. It just felt like there were these awesome things set up or dangled in front of you, but that you never get to experience or don't get payoff for.
Yeah for sure... I remember thinking during that scene in the Oriflamme inn with Clive, Jill, and Cid, that once the scene ended we would get to have a look around the city... But nope, just on to the dungeon 😂
As far as parts of the game that broke my heart, there were two moments for me 1. Otto and Clive mourn Cid together, and 2. The quest where Torgal's loyalty to Clive during the timeskip was demonstrated. I would have to agree with you overall, though, because both of these moments are sidequests. On the note of sidequests, one funny moment I had was how I was thinking they were really well paces, then suddenly I get to the final objective in the endgame, and there are suddenly dozens more sidequests. That moment left me thinking "Where the heck were all of these earlier?!" 😆 I loved Final Fantasy XVI, though, and probably ultimately ranks among my favorites in the series
Thanks for sharing! Those two side quests were both fantastic. I would have easily traded the main story quest where you gather sand in the desert for either of them 😂
I hope the next one focuses more on creating a rich full world, interesting characters and less on making it look like real life because the super high end graphics are massive budget eaters, those flashy Eikon battles being a huge loss. They need to have it be grindy as in stuff that you can create or earn to give a reason to play the game beyond just completing the story. The monster arena is a good example in Final Fantasy 10 which allowed you to farm materials for crafting / leveling. Rock Paper Scissors style elemental damage / forcing you to choose wisely.
Lol yeah, I appreciate that the eikon battles were a huge draw for some people, but for me they were just a waste of resources that could have gone into making the base game a much better experience.
It's good to hear that FFXVI has as many good qualities as it does, because there is one thing about it that I can never get past so I will never play it. That is the dark setting and M rating. But I hope the good qualities of XVI can make it into XVII without the aspects that I want no part of. I'm not upset or anything though. I have no reason to be. I still have FFVII:Remake and Rebirth to enjoy.
Fair enough! To be honest, I feel the differences aren’t as great as it seemed they would be before the game came out, but it’s definitely a departure from the previous titles.
XVI’s M rating felt kind of unearned to me. Honestly, massive respect to you. The game doesn’t even do anything to justify it. It’s themes and story elements are no darker then FFVII or IX, yet it feels the need to throw in large amounts of blood and cussing. It’s like it’s a regular FF game trying to be edgy by shouting “take me seriously” at random points. It doesn’t help the dialogue and the tone could have easily been retained with a lot less blood. In fact, I think it would have been stronger if the game had only used blood at specific moments akin to FFVIIR Intergrade rather then having it in every minor skirmish
They should have made Dirge of Cerberus an M rated game cause it's tone was already very dark, could have really used more gore & swearing for the pretty dull story it had too.
Dammit. Even Altercate doesn't like this game. Now I feel like shit for thoroughly enjoying it. 😞 EDIT: After actually watching the video, I'm walking it back. My comment was admittedly in bad faith and I assumed the worst out of the gate, when in reality it wasn't the case. So I apologize.
Hey, I still enjoyed it! It’s a solid game with some fantastic moments, I just wish some of the elements were better executed. I can totally see why others would love it, tho 😀
@@AltercateTV Truth be told, I was scared to actually watch the video for a while and assumed the worst. Now that I did, I think I'll walk it back. I was reckless and emotional.
No need for apologies! I hope I did justice to the game even though it ended up being a disappointment for me. There’s still a lot to love about this game!
Ngl, one of my biggest motivations playing the game was to get my ultimate revenge against Clive's mom, Annabella...............I felt and still feel cheated. I would have loved for her to be Ultima's puppet (willingly doing everything to make Olivier Ultima's avatar or something) and her being merged with Ultima as an eikon-like final boss. It would have been more cathartic.
This is the second video on this topic I've watched today, and both yourself and Overnight Siren have very succinctly expressed all of the reasons why I felt kind of flat after playing FFXVI. I have very recently finished FFX and felt so emotionally connected to that game and it really drew a contrast to how I felt after finishing FFXVI. You've done an excellent job and clearly put in a hell of a lot of work.
The part that bugs me about the combat lacking depth and challenge is I'm sure the director went "let's not make it too hard now guys, we want people to finish the game for players at every skill level", but then also went FAR out of their way to make the game accessible with the ring accessories and Story-Focused Mode. They really overdid it. I think a better choice would have been to make the game as deep, as strategic, as complex as they wanted it to be with Action-Focused Mode and have Story-Focused Mode be the game with all of that gameplay depth and complexity turned off for those who can't or don't want to play that (i.e, have the game be the way it is now...). I think it was entirely possible for the devs to have had their cake and eaten it too by creating more depth and challenge to the gameplay but just... didn't do it.
Totally agree. Story-Focused is even presented as the default, isn’t it? I really think they should have made Action Focused more challenging. If they were worried about people not wanting to “turn the difficulty down”, then just do what games have been doing since forever and call Action Focused “hard mode” lol
It's ironic you title the section about Clive and Jill's relationship as "long distance relationship" when the relationship between Dion and Terrence is literally shown from a long distance. Clive and Jill get close up nude romance scene, Dion and Terrance kissing has to be shown with the camera zoomed out as far as possible. I thought this was what you were going to talk about when it came to relationships since this whole thing just really fell flat. It's almost like someone wanted to include it but someone else thought actually showing gay men would be too much still in 2023, and so we get the version that shows clearly how uncomfortable that person or those people are with gay people.
Yeah, I thought that was unfortunate too. That relationship deserved better. It ended up being such a tiny footnote that I almost forgot it was even in the game…
In most way that's matter this game went in the wrong or opposite direction for me - stripped back RPG elements, Dark and glum settings (Who thought we wanted to escape into a fantasy world mostly imitative of the UK lol), an overly revered and endowed protagonist, flashy, dark soul-esque combat with extra spongey enemies - but most of all a distinct lack of 'fantasy' outside of the enemy designs and some environmental elements. The story too was lacking flash, quirk but most of all whimsicality, it certainly can be dark, granted my preference isn't THIS dark, FFXV too often had horror-esque elements so they at least move away from that, and I for one can appreciate stilted, awkward or not overly affectionate relationships between characters. The FF 9 remake I suspect will be far more down my alley, but I hope that even 17 is a similar re-instating of i suppose high fantasy, elaborate world building that no doubt has it's compromises or tropes too.
Yeah, I'd definitely like to see a return to something more high fantasy and whimsical with FF17. I don't mind the approach they attempted, but I wouldn't want it to become the norm going forward...
I've been thinking about this game for days after playing the side content for the platinum. Every statement you've made is both acknowledging the games strengths and weaknesses. For both the narrative and combat. It's a shame the rising tide never fixed nearly any of the games' core problems. I hope one day in the future, maybe they'll fix its core issues, but for now, I'll be waiting for a discount on the dlc.
Idk I just look at ghost of tsushima and I honestly believe the story in it is one of the best games. At the beginning of the game you pick your horse, you defeat a Mongol camp and you are bonding with your horse afterwards and you are told at the beginning that you'll have this horse the entire game then it act 3 your horse gets injured and ends up dying and you can't help but to feel the emotion. Side quests actually have good story telling, in order to get side quests you end up rescuing a prisoner who gives you a clue on where to look. I just feel the industry would look at their game and see the standard we want
Where I feel the soundtrack fell short was in the dungeons, most of them at least, they were not bad, just weren't a highlight, and mostly forgettable like rosalith, drakes head, breath and fang, and crystalline dominion felt similar... like they had the same energy or tone. The battle themes were great imo, as well as the overworld themes of sanbreque, rosaria and dalmakia
Yeah, it's weird. Outside of the battle themes and "Histoire" which plays in Sanbreque, I can't even remember any of the music from the game at this point. I never thought I'd say that about a Soken OST lol
@@AltercateTV I spent so much time out there that they stuck in my mind, and I really liked the middle eastern sound of the dalmakia one. But like I said, dungeons where the weakest part of the soundtrack, and its weird because in XIV some of the best soundtracks are from dungeons, absolute bangers!
FF16 was my first final fantasy game, I was amazed initially, the cinematics were spectacular, I had high hopes, but it definitely was half baked. The barely voiced scenes killed any immersion, lazy side quests left me wondering how a game could be so good and also so bad. Now I’ll be playing Witcher 3 and RDR2 again as a palette cleanser
Thanks, that's really cool to hear! :) I'm definitely planning to review XV, though it'll be a while since I'm going through the series chronologically and I'm only up to VI at the time lol. That said, I think XV is a very interesting case. I plan on playing through both the original Day 1 unpatched version of the game AND the final Royal Edition version, to compare them. The launch version of XV was a big disappointment to me, but I'm betting that I'll have a significantly different view of the Royal Edition (although I doubt it can fix ALL of the issues I had with the game).
I don’t have a ps5 so I can’t know for sure how true this is but this looks like a game I would dream about back in the late 90s, obtain 20 something years later then feel as if I didn’t appreciate games with simpler game design enough. When I was younger and newer to JRPGs, I thought being turn based always held them back. As i grew older and falling out of love with newer action games, I can no longer see action as the future of FF. While I had fun with FFXII, FFXV and especially FFXIII and its trilogy, they couldn’t hold a candle to my true love; FFX. I know games such as WOFF exist but they don’t quite hit the spot. Even replaying FF1 or FFVII does a better job of engaging me with the beauty of the franchise. But with everything said, I still welcome FFXVI with open arms. I just need it out of ps5 jail first xD.
I def don't think this is the best FF in 20 years. FF12 blows this game awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. FF13 still felt more like a FF game like it or hate it. The rest I more or less agree with.
Thanks for sharing! FF12's main story didn't grab me, but I loved the characters and the voice acting, and the gameplay was quite fun in its own way. FF13 was a total miss for me lol.
I will say, I started off as an Ultima hater, but I have really come around on him. (Massive spoilers for a 2 month old game and a 2000 year old book) Ultima may be lacking in terms of characterization, and merely a consequence of the scenario writing more than an active agent, but he serves as a really compelling thematic device in the subtext of the plot. Final Fantasy 16 is a game heavily steeped in Gnostic ideas. Ultima is, almost to a T, the wrathful deity that Gnosticism portrays the God of the Old Testament as- the Demiurge. In Gnosticism, the Old Testament is rejected, as it believes that the ideas of the Old and New Testament (the Gospel of Jesus) are fundamentally incompatible, therefore, there is a different god as described by, say, Moses, and as by Jesus. The God of Jesus is the Monad, transcendental and not of this physical plane. Barnabas is a royalty from a foreign land, who preaches the word of his god, brings plagues upon the land, and splits the sea. Moses is (adopted) royalty from a foreign land, who preaches the word of his God, brings plagues upon the land, and splits the sea. Furthermore, Jesus, as a name, is a derivative of Joshua. Can you think of two people who are born with a great destiny, perform miracles, become worshiped, die, and are resurrected? (In this reading, Clive is Elijah and Cid is the "Liberator" reading of Moses instead of the "Harbinger" one, but this comment is long enough as is) I think the writers knew what they were doing, and as such, Ultima served his role pretty well as the representation of the Demiurge. More potent and compelling as an idea rather than a humanistic character, but I believe that is the intent. You could argue that the Gnostic story is, at this point, a cookie cutter JRPG plot, but I think that is because a lot of games do it somewhat poorly, or at a surface level, which I do not believe is the case with FF16. It just expects a lot out of the audience, and whether that is a flaw or not is a different argument entirely. Funnily enough, I also think the game is "pretty good, not great", but not for any plot-related reasons, mostly.
Thanks for sharing! You make an interesting point, although I'd be worried about confirmation bias seeping into some of these conclusions. It's possible that you're reading too much into it and these analogies are just coincidences, since they are pretty fundamental archetypes/patterns that can be "discovered" in countless stories if you look hard enough. But even assuming that you're right, this kind of subtext doesn't make the story more engaging to me. 😂
@@AltercateTV To each their own, I think it would be some coincidence that they stumbled into making the Moses archetype literally split the sea, the character named Joshua (a name from which the name of Jesus is derived) the character who goes on tour healing the sick and driving out demons, and Ultima calling Clive "Logos" just as a made up fantasy term. I suppose I can't prove that I didn't work backwards with that reading (other than saying I had no expectations for the story to be constructed the way it was), but these are far from stretches, and there's reason to believe in the intentionality of these parallels. That being said I understand if this flavor of thematic material doesn't leave you as fulfilled in the narrative as a more character driven endgame would. No accounting for taste, and all. Thanks for the video!
@@gamezilla345 I'll admit it does seem like more than coincidence. At the end of the day, I can appreciate the presence of this subtext on an intellectual level, but it's not something that evokes anything in me emotionally. Like you said, no accounting for taste! I'm thankful for your perspective, though. And I'm actually curious. I've been kind of wrestling with this "theme vs plot" problem for a while now (it came up in Xenoblade Chronicles 3, as well, for example) and I'd love to know if you have any insights as to why this kind of underlying themes resonate with you (as I assume they do)? My personal feeling is that subtext cannot be a substitute for the text itself, but rather something that supplements it and gives it a richer meaning. In other words, if the plot doesn't grab me, I don't really care about the subtext. Other people seem to take an opposite view. They can tolerate or even ignore a plot that doesn't grab them as long as the subtext intrigues them. And I'm really keen to dig deeper into why that might be. Totally get it if you don't have the time or energy to address this wall of text, but if you feel like it, I'd appreciate it! Either way, thanks for a meaningful conversation.
@@AltercateTV I love talking about this stuff, so it's no burden at all I consider myself a themes-first guy, as you correctly guessed. I can often overlook a less than stellar cast or scenario if the ideas, statements, and relations put forth by the narrative resonate with me. This is because I engage the most with narratives that have something to say about the human condition, and make me think about concepts after the credits roll beyond "that was an enjoyable set of twists and turns", or "I liked vicariously hanging out with this character through the story". Of course, characters and scenarios are the backbones of stories, so there needs to be a base level of competency. Your building will only be as good as the materials you have and the people you have to make it. Suffice to say, you and I have different thresholds of "baseline", as you weren't quite gripped by the narrative of FF16, whereas I can forgive some of the more egregious flaws (shoddy pacing, optional but not really side stories) because I was interested in seeing what the story had to say /to and about/ me and the world I live in, less so what it has to say about /who/ is in that world, or /what/ happens in it. As somebody who is very into theology, the exploration of Gnostic ideas through the subtext really did it for me. This is often contentious in otherworldly fantastical works, as by definition they inherently carry a degree of escapist appeal, and it's.... dissonant to espouse beats and ideas that go against that appeal. In a PS1 FF, Cid probably would have made it until at least the end of the second act, if not all the way through, not the halfway point, for example. And there's nothing wrong with that, I love the PS1 FFs and there's merit to most ideas. I think FF16's (narrative and thematic) vision works for what it wants to be, which is great because I like what it has to say. Thanks for reading my blog lol
I really appreciate you taking the time to explain your perspective. I feel like I understand your position now, and it's a very convincing one! I'm very much a "character first" person when it comes to stories, and what I look for the most are the powerful, cathartic emotional beats that come from well-executed character arcs. Not to say that you don't enjoy that, too, but as you've kind of pointed out, the underlying themes mean more to you than they do to me. To me, themes are more or less optional. All else being equal, I prefer a story with strong themes over one without them, but I've come to realize that I won't sacrifice character and plot for it, even to a small degree. Despite my complaints, Final Fantasy XVI is still better than most when it comes to delivering a gripping narrative, and I would say that its themes are relatively unobtrusive. After all, it took someone pointing them out to me before I noticed them - with the exception of the Yeshua/Phoenix reference, which stuck out to me. To take a more extreme example, I don't know if you've played Xenoblade 3 or not, but if you did, I think you'll agree that its story sacrifices a lot more in the name of its themes than FF16 does. And I'm guessing that you'd be okay with that, too. Because it *does* deliver some powerful themes and ideas. But, imo, at the expense of satisfying payoffs in the surface level narrative. However, I've been struggling with these thoughts. Because when I work on my script for Xenoblade 3 (which is still in progress), I feel like a bit of a hypocrite. After all, my instinct is to criticize XC3 for sacrificing plot in the name of theme, when some of my favorite works of fiction, like Dan Simmons' "Hyperion" or the "Age of Scorpio" trilogy by Gavin G Smith are just as guilty of withholding answers to its central questions. But I *think* it comes down to expectations. Those books never gave me the impression that all of its great mysteries would be answered conclusively. And Hyperion, for example, despite never revealing its hand, left me feeling thoroughly satisfied in the end. In a sense, the questions posed by the book themselves were worth the journey. While XC3 and (to a lesser extent) FF16 somehow primed me to expect more out of the surface level story.
This is very true, my friend, great video indeed! For me, FFXVI was both the most enjoyable and the most disappointing game. My issue with XVI is that it's too shallow to be a good action game, too long to be an action game, and too empty to be a good RPG or Final Fantasy. I enjoy the game generally, especially the boss fights, but there are many aspects of it that I hate. The plot starts out promising, but it falls off the rails near the end. Combat was enjoyable, but it lacked the gameplay complexity that would allow the player to experiment with combos and develop their own playstyle. This does not imply that the game needs to have complicated combat like any great character action title, but it has to provide players with a sense of accomplishment. In this game, for example, you could execute jump cancelling, but the number of jumps you could perform was limited. the enemy telegraph is a mess because there is too much effect, (not IGN, but I mean it literally). The lack of weapon variety and a cooldown system destroy the combat flow (although it does look visually stunning when you spam the skills at the boss, but that's it). Maps design and quests were very MMO though, I love 14 art style and designs, but I hate it when they it did in 16.
Sorry it took me so long to watch the video--at an hour, I wanted to make sure I set aside time for it! Overall, we mostly align. I am almost finished with the game, but truthfully (and painfully), I'm struggling to finish it. I feel like the game relies on a crazy amount of cut-scenes (a lot even for me). The "crafting system" has been bothering me for awhile, and I DO feel a little obligated with all of the sidequests. With all of that said, I LOVED Cid and hated to see him die. The combat system feels incredibly fluid (except for how unnecessary magic often feels), and I really enjoy the overall combat loop. I also appreciate the romance between Clive and Jill. Overall, I'm looking forward to finishing it. A thought I'm having about this game is that, with FF games taking near-decades to finish nowadays, 'misses' feel so much more impactful than they used to. Anyone who was disappointed by FF8 only needed to wait a year to get a fresh installment. As disappointed as I've been with the game overall, I'm a little bummed that it'll probably be another decade before we'll get another one. And personally, I don't LOVE the action-RPG direction they're going. I can appreciate those games for what they are, but I would prefer them to be like Stranger of Paradise--an awesome release that doesn't impede the mainline franchise and the JRPGs that are at its core. Still, I get that not everyone shares this opinion, and I know that this has been slowly happening since FF12. Awesome, passionate video AS ALWAYS. Thanks for the time and care you put into analyzing these games! I've been working on 100%-ing the mainline series (I've finished 1-4 Pixel Remasters, 7, and 8, going to start 5 Pixel after I finish 16), and I always love seeing your retrospectives and reviews. Keep up the awesome work, and let me know if you need any help!
Hi Will! :) It's great to hear your thoughts about the game. Couldn't agree more about Cid. It felt inevitable that he'd die, but I honestly think it was a mistake. The story was SO much more fun with him around. Honestly, a core party of Clive, Jill, Cid, and (eventually) Joshua would have made for an amazing experience, I think. Great point about the production cycle of these games. It's CRAZY to me to think about how FF8, 9, and 10 were released in successive years. Just blows my mind lol. If there had been only a year between FF15 and FF16, I probably would have shrugged off most of the criticisms I had about FF15. I'm probably okay with the action game direction they're taking, though a part of me definitely laments that they didn't continue down the FF10 route. FF10 has one of the absolute best turn based combat systems I've seen, and they left so much potential on the table when they went in the opposite direction. The early Trails games have more or less the same basic turn based setup, and playing those games recently reminded me of how much fun it can be. Thanks for your kind words and encouragement as usual (it really does a lot to keep my fighting spirit alive lol) and good luck with your 100% quest! Keep me updated on how it's going. What was the hardest thing to do so far?
@@AltercateTV frankly, the pixel remasters are easy to 100%. So just 7 and 8 that are challenging, and even they aren’t that hard. 9 is going to be crazy though. Have to do the jump rope mini game… 😵💫
I disliked ff15 as well, and just finished 16 and can safely say 15s story was better. The only reason to play 16 is for the combat, but you would be better off playing elder ring if that's the case.
Excellent video! The game had stellar cutscenes, great combat (that got stale), some good sidequests, neat graphics/world. But it got stale 2/3 in. There are no secrets (okay maybe a worthless chest or 2 at a fork off the main path) or minigames, open world stinks, not many abilities, no status effects, crafting sucks..i had fun no doubt but man i do not want to play the game again
Exactly the thing i was thinking. Cid is awesome and it makes it much more reasonable to do side quests, since he is the politican. Also how weak that clive didnt keep the mark of the bearer
It would have been kind of interesting if Clive had kept the brand. Especially if the story had focused more on changing society to make a better life for the bearers!
For me so far its fantastic and really enjoying it! i'm not even 40% done but i'm taking my time as you should with all FF games. I'm reading all the lore and really getting into the world and characters. Sure there's a few things to be improved but overall its another brilliant FF title and well deserving of game of the year in my opinion.
Ironically, your experience perfectly matches how I felt about the game when I was about 40% of the way through! Glad to hear you’re enjoying the game, have fun with it!
One thing i hated are the animations when outside of the cut scenes, they are horrible loke its 2008. Especially when there is a very nice cut scene and then it jumps to the stiff in game animations it really breaks the emersion
The fact that a player requires to have be a emphatic type of person in orden to understand the feelings of the characters might have, it's not a good subcontext for the narrative of this game. In nier automata for example you could deduce how 9S personal feels and toughts by route A, thinking about it. On route B those feelings and thoughts are presented in your face through the gameplay. Here that never happens. You KNOW Clive and Jill deep know each others beliefs and intentions, but you never see that unfold in the gameplay step by step.
Thanks for sharing! Yep, the game is way too cagey when it comes to the relationships between characters. That was a huge missed opportunity to me, especially since there was so much filler that could have been cut to make space for this stuff.
Fair and sound review. I think the game is a good game, but I would never have played it unless it had FF in its title. The fisting in space was epic ^^
i quite like it. a lot of the described disappointment comes from inflated expectations, some of which are a bit unrealistic given the reality "modern" games must face. JRPGs are known for their "teams", and much of the "bonding" of the team (or actually rather with you as a player of the entire team) happens when you level up the individual characters and then employ them in turn-based style battling monsters. in many of those battles, the protagonist may not even be needed. JRPGs also are known for fantasy-filled overly grandiose and sometimes absurd stories that blow many a mind. alas, these aspects suffer when taken to modern hyper realistic 4K action games, in a comparable way as it happens with live-action adaptations of manga and anime (these usually disappoint). hyperrealism makes it incredibly difficult to suspend the disbelief as the smallest error may rip you out --- and they need to keep it up during 50+ hours of gameplay, not just 2+ hours of a movie. and what to do with the more absurd features. action games make it also difficult to play "a team", if the game should be playable and enjoyable by a broad range of gamers. considering the cost of developing a game of that type, risk is not something you would like to maximize, at least not when you are square enix rather than a kickstarter. given the enormity of these challenges, the FF team really did an extraordinary job.
I disagree heavily with many points, but frankly, when you got to Clive, I had to write my displeasure. Clive is a great protagonist who continues to grow throughout the game. He does not remain static once he defeats his inner ifrit self: he continues to be plagued by regret and empathy for his actions again and again, finding the courage to go on because he refused to be defined only by that. When he faces ultima the first time and defeats him, ultima seeks to break his will, and we see that he is full of self-doubt. He nearly DOES break, serving only because of the love of brother brining him back. It’s this sense of love that defines him. Love for country: for bearers, for people, for Cid, Jill, and especially his brother. It’s what kept his sword from killing Jill after 13 years, not righteousness, and sane as well. His fight with barnabas has that on full display: with equal power granted by shiva, it’s Clive’s love for Jill adding onto his own that finally lets him defeat Barnabas. It’s why he wins in the end. So to label this guy as “generic fantasy hero” is-frankly-disingenuous, and ascribes him as nothing more than a meathead. He’s not. What his arc is in the game is starting out as a perfect son, then regressing into a bitter assassin for over a decade, before painfully dragging himself into the light, and to the kind, loving man the world needs him to be. Everything else tests him on that journey, and him destroying ultima affirms his choice to love, in spite of everything. Your critique mentions NONE of this, bar a few points. It’s frustrating to see you not cover this matter, because he deserves the respect you-unfortunately-have not given him.
Thanks for sharing! I appreciate your perspective and I think you make some good points. Let me first clarify that I didn’t mean to imply that Clive is a bad protagonist. On the contrary, I think he’s a great fit for this story. He’s very likable, his struggles are relatable and compelling, and he’s definitely not a meathead. I think he displays a lot of intelligence throughout the story and he’s very thoughtful and compassionate, though sometimes blinded by his own pain. Which is cool. I also agree that Clive’s decision to save Jill even at the cost of becoming an outlaw is a great moment. That said, I don’t really agree with the “dragging himself into the light” part. Even at his worst, Clive is still a good man who clearly cares about people. He talks about killing indiscriminately in the 13 years that we missed, but we don’t really get to see any of that firsthand, which I think was a mistake. From what we actually get to see, he’s no more ruthless than any of his companions. The thing is, I actually liked Clive a lot, but I guess because I spent most of the time in the video trying to make my points about how the story could have been better, that doesn’t come across. Which is on me. When I say that he’s kind of a boring guy, I don’t mean that he’s a bad character or that his journey isn’t compelling, but that his personality (outside of his more emotional moments) is pretty flat. Which is why I felt the game should have surrounded him with its more colorful cast more often. He really works well when he’s playing off of them. You make some other interesting points that maybe I should address, but you said I’m being disingenuous, so I feel like I’d be wasting my time if I did lol. Anyway, thanks again for weighing in!
I don't wanna take anything away from this game. Final Fantasy XVI is clearly a labor of love, and Creative Business Unit 3 should be proud of their achievement. But the point of critiquing is to aim for perfection, and there's a lot about the experience that could have been better. I hope you like the video!
I ended up taking a break from working on my Xenoblade 3 critique to do this video. The XC3 script has been a backbreaking project (though I'm getting close now) and I kind of needed to remember what it felt like to work on a video while the feelings were still fresh.
One of the major problems I face is that because my production cycle is so slow, I usually end up working on scripts about games I played a year ago. And doing this video has reminded me of just how great it feels to strike while the iron is hot.
Next, the plan is to finish my Xenoblade 3 critique, but it's possible I'll prioritize the Chrono Trigger retrospective instead. Whatever keeps me sane.
Thanks for watching, and thanks for supporting me! Let me know what you thought of the video and how you felt about the game. And if you have any questions or suggestions for me, I’d love to hear them! You folks are the reason I keep making content. 😍
I'm not as convinced it was a labor of love to the franchise's fans as much as it was a labor of ego to themselves. Starting with interviews, Yoshi-p said they made this an action game because that's what they wanted to play, so that's what they made. It wasn't because it was what the fanbase was asking/hoping for by any stretch and he tried to drag along the detractors with the pity jewelry that auto dodges, as if they figured they thought the reason we didn't like these games is that we couldn't keep up.
The game isn't ever remotely challenging and it's often a spectacle we're forced to just watch, as if to say, "WoW, look how good we are at making stuff flashy!" I'm used to watching a little more than playing ever since FFX, but the ratio here is way off. What's worse is the story is very poor.
It's told in these three time-skip intervals where basically nothing happens during those periods. First Clive is a nameless soldier doing nameless soldier things until the day he finally meets Shiva. Next, they changed base locations. No mother crystals down, no plans to move ahead, it's just 5 or whatever years later. We don't even see any positive effects of having destroyed the first one! It feels like it's meant to drive home that this is an epic tale that takes place across the full prime of a man's life, but it's incredibly hollowed out. "Look at our epic writer, she can handle such large scope!" Except it falls short at nearly every chance it has to be interesting.
Unfortunately, Clive is just boring, he's really giving Snow a run for his money as the worst "hero" we've gotten to play. But at least he's gritty and angry/brooding all the time so we feel the edginess! We wouldn't want any moments of levity in a final fantasy game, even if literally every one I can think of has that. Even Tactics has that!
It's missing so many staples and fails to understand why the symbols they included have meaning that, once again, we come back to this feeling like a work of ego, and I am hoping it performs below expectations to check that ego. The fans they lost from the series they managed to make up in action game players, but they released a very shallow and average game in that attempt as well. I'm not sure how many will be coming back if they try action combat again.
This is the quintessential analysis of this game. The story had so much potential, yet I felt too much was left underdeveloped. Fantastic work!
Wow, thank you so much! :)
Thanks for articulating many of the points on how I feel about the game. From the high highs, to the frustrating wasted potential.
Glad to hear it! :)
Preface: I like Final Fantasy 16 a lot, but I have to agree with a lot of the more critical sentiments. I see no reason why the game couldn't have had a party. Your with party members a lot, and they use the same eikons you do. Why couldn't you have played as Jill with Shiva's powers, or Cid with Ramuh's, or Dion with Bahumat's? I don't think it's even a stretch to say that a character like Gav could have inherited the power of one of the villain dominants. Having them form an actual party would have made them feel much more crucial to the story, and could have had more interactions during sidequests and dungeons, maybe along the lines of what can be found in the FFVII remake's character interactions. That game's sidequests are a massive boring chore, but I found them more fun than 16's because they had more interactions with the core cast
Yep, I’d have been totally onboard with that setup. I also would have accepted a system where Clive can call upon the assistance of his allies in battle through a system similar to how Torgal works, but with more impactful actions. It would have been really badass if you built up some kind of meter in battle and once it hit max you could tag Jill in to smash the enemy with a Shiva ultimate.
Also agree on your point about FF7R’s side quests lol. Weak content, but the character interaction made them worth it.
Brother, this is a very great video summarizing what I felt during and after finishing Final Fantasy 16. Every words you say, I completely agree and you have said it beautifully without sounding off as condescending or looking down on the game. I have been looking forward to this game way before they announced because of the previous series not meeting my expectations. The game is very well done but could have really done better. I was disappointed enough to hear the news that this was going to be a solo MC, not able to control teammates, but I just brush it off, knowing how good Ryota is in making action combat system. But I was even more devastated that while I was playing the game, exploration is not rewarded very well. I truly lost motivation after I had arrived at Velcroy Dessert. Its a big place with nothing to do except from moving from point A to point B. I truly hated it when I walk far and wide just to be rewarded with 5 Gil. It is infuriating. And just as you said, there is no point in engaging with monsters and I am glad to be able to put away Clive's sword away as soon as Im done with the game. No point in replaying any of it as I already made sure I did all the things I needed to before facing off Ultima
Thank you for your kind words and for sharing your experience with the game! :)
This analysis captured so much of what I felt. I really liked the game at a lot of points, but just had frequent moments of disappointments, many of which you articulated perfectly. There were so many payoffs they could have made but didn't. Also, I was bothered probably an unreasonable amount by the lack of ability to explore the major cities in the game. Walking up to the gates of Oriflamme only to never really get to go there was so disappointing. It just felt like there were these awesome things set up or dangled in front of you, but that you never get to experience or don't get payoff for.
Yeah for sure... I remember thinking during that scene in the Oriflamme inn with Clive, Jill, and Cid, that once the scene ended we would get to have a look around the city... But nope, just on to the dungeon 😂
“Final Fantasy XVI is the most well-written story in the series history” what game were you playing
You didn’t even believe that because right after when you talk about the characters you get into how it’s poorly written lmao
As far as parts of the game that broke my heart, there were two moments for me
1. Otto and Clive mourn Cid together, and
2. The quest where Torgal's loyalty to Clive during the timeskip was demonstrated.
I would have to agree with you overall, though, because both of these moments are sidequests.
On the note of sidequests, one funny moment I had was how I was thinking they were really well paces, then suddenly I get to the final objective in the endgame, and there are suddenly dozens more sidequests. That moment left me thinking "Where the heck were all of these earlier?!" 😆
I loved Final Fantasy XVI, though, and probably ultimately ranks among my favorites in the series
Thanks for sharing! Those two side quests were both fantastic. I would have easily traded the main story quest where you gather sand in the desert for either of them 😂
I hope the next one focuses more on creating a rich full world, interesting characters and less on making it look like real life because the super high end graphics are massive budget eaters, those flashy Eikon battles being a huge loss. They need to have it be grindy as in stuff that you can create or earn to give a reason to play the game beyond just completing the story. The monster arena is a good example in Final Fantasy 10 which allowed you to farm materials for crafting / leveling. Rock Paper Scissors style elemental damage / forcing you to choose wisely.
Lol yeah, I appreciate that the eikon battles were a huge draw for some people, but for me they were just a waste of resources that could have gone into making the base game a much better experience.
It's good to hear that FFXVI has as many good qualities as it does, because there is one thing about it that I can never get past so I will never play it. That is the dark setting and M rating. But I hope the good qualities of XVI can make it into XVII without the aspects that I want no part of.
I'm not upset or anything though. I have no reason to be. I still have FFVII:Remake and Rebirth to enjoy.
Fair enough! To be honest, I feel the differences aren’t as great as it seemed they would be before the game came out, but it’s definitely a departure from the previous titles.
XVI’s M rating felt kind of unearned to me. Honestly, massive respect to you. The game doesn’t even do anything to justify it. It’s themes and story elements are no darker then FFVII or IX, yet it feels the need to throw in large amounts of blood and cussing. It’s like it’s a regular FF game trying to be edgy by shouting “take me seriously” at random points. It doesn’t help the dialogue and the tone could have easily been retained with a lot less blood. In fact, I think it would have been stronger if the game had only used blood at specific moments akin to FFVIIR Intergrade rather then having it in every minor skirmish
They should have made Dirge of Cerberus an M rated game cause it's tone was already very dark, could have really used more gore & swearing for the pretty dull story it had too.
Excellent video and a fascinating analysis. I think you helped me understand why I came away with the "very good but not great" feelings you explain.
Thank you! :)
Dammit. Even Altercate doesn't like this game.
Now I feel like shit for thoroughly enjoying it. 😞
EDIT: After actually watching the video, I'm walking it back. My comment was admittedly in bad faith and I assumed the worst out of the gate, when in reality it wasn't the case. So I apologize.
Hey, I still enjoyed it! It’s a solid game with some fantastic moments, I just wish some of the elements were better executed. I can totally see why others would love it, tho 😀
@@AltercateTV Truth be told, I was scared to actually watch the video for a while and assumed the worst.
Now that I did, I think I'll walk it back. I was reckless and emotional.
No need for apologies! I hope I did justice to the game even though it ended up being a disappointment for me. There’s still a lot to love about this game!
Ngl, one of my biggest motivations playing the game was to get my ultimate revenge against Clive's mom, Annabella...............I felt and still feel cheated. I would have loved for her to be Ultima's puppet (willingly doing everything to make Olivier Ultima's avatar or something) and her being merged with Ultima as an eikon-like final boss. It would have been more cathartic.
Lol yeah I was incredibly disappointed with the way that plot thread ended... By far the game's best villain, and they just completely blew it.
This is the second video on this topic I've watched today, and both yourself and Overnight Siren have very succinctly expressed all of the reasons why I felt kind of flat after playing FFXVI. I have very recently finished FFX and felt so emotionally connected to that game and it really drew a contrast to how I felt after finishing FFXVI. You've done an excellent job and clearly put in a hell of a lot of work.
Thank you, that's really nice to hear :)
The part that bugs me about the combat lacking depth and challenge is I'm sure the director went "let's not make it too hard now guys, we want people to finish the game for players at every skill level", but then also went FAR out of their way to make the game accessible with the ring accessories and Story-Focused Mode. They really overdid it.
I think a better choice would have been to make the game as deep, as strategic, as complex as they wanted it to be with Action-Focused Mode and have Story-Focused Mode be the game with all of that gameplay depth and complexity turned off for those who can't or don't want to play that (i.e, have the game be the way it is now...).
I think it was entirely possible for the devs to have had their cake and eaten it too by creating more depth and challenge to the gameplay but just... didn't do it.
Totally agree. Story-Focused is even presented as the default, isn’t it? I really think they should have made Action Focused more challenging. If they were worried about people not wanting to “turn the difficulty down”, then just do what games have been doing since forever and call Action Focused “hard mode” lol
It's ironic you title the section about Clive and Jill's relationship as "long distance relationship" when the relationship between Dion and Terrence is literally shown from a long distance. Clive and Jill get close up nude romance scene, Dion and Terrance kissing has to be shown with the camera zoomed out as far as possible. I thought this was what you were going to talk about when it came to relationships since this whole thing just really fell flat. It's almost like someone wanted to include it but someone else thought actually showing gay men would be too much still in 2023, and so we get the version that shows clearly how uncomfortable that person or those people are with gay people.
Yeah, I thought that was unfortunate too. That relationship deserved better. It ended up being such a tiny footnote that I almost forgot it was even in the game…
It just didn't feel like a final fantasy same as 15, they want flashy action
In most way that's matter this game went in the wrong or opposite direction for me - stripped back RPG elements, Dark and glum settings (Who thought we wanted to escape into a fantasy world mostly imitative of the UK lol), an overly revered and endowed protagonist, flashy, dark soul-esque combat with extra spongey enemies - but most of all a distinct lack of 'fantasy' outside of the enemy designs and some environmental elements. The story too was lacking flash, quirk but most of all whimsicality, it certainly can be dark, granted my preference isn't THIS dark, FFXV too often had horror-esque elements so they at least move away from that, and I for one can appreciate stilted, awkward or not overly affectionate relationships between characters. The FF 9 remake I suspect will be far more down my alley, but I hope that even 17 is a similar re-instating of i suppose high fantasy, elaborate world building that no doubt has it's compromises or tropes too.
Yeah, I'd definitely like to see a return to something more high fantasy and whimsical with FF17. I don't mind the approach they attempted, but I wouldn't want it to become the norm going forward...
I've been thinking about this game for days after playing the side content for the platinum. Every statement you've made is both acknowledging the games strengths and weaknesses. For both the narrative and combat. It's a shame the rising tide never fixed nearly any of the games' core problems. I hope one day in the future, maybe they'll fix its core issues, but for now, I'll be waiting for a discount on the dlc.
Idk I just look at ghost of tsushima and I honestly believe the story in it is one of the best games. At the beginning of the game you pick your horse, you defeat a Mongol camp and you are bonding with your horse afterwards and you are told at the beginning that you'll have this horse the entire game then it act 3 your horse gets injured and ends up dying and you can't help but to feel the emotion. Side quests actually have good story telling, in order to get side quests you end up rescuing a prisoner who gives you a clue on where to look. I just feel the industry would look at their game and see the standard we want
Yeah, Ghost of Tsushima was a fantastic game!
Where I feel the soundtrack fell short was in the dungeons, most of them at least, they were not bad, just weren't a highlight, and mostly forgettable like rosalith, drakes head, breath and fang, and crystalline dominion felt similar... like they had the same energy or tone. The battle themes were great imo, as well as the overworld themes of sanbreque, rosaria and dalmakia
Yeah, it's weird. Outside of the battle themes and "Histoire" which plays in Sanbreque, I can't even remember any of the music from the game at this point.
I never thought I'd say that about a Soken OST lol
@@AltercateTV I spent so much time out there that they stuck in my mind, and I really liked the middle eastern sound of the dalmakia one. But like I said, dungeons where the weakest part of the soundtrack, and its weird because in XIV some of the best soundtracks are from dungeons, absolute bangers!
@@Sacrengard Couldn't agree more with that one :)
FF16 was my first final fantasy game, I was amazed initially, the cinematics were spectacular, I had high hopes, but it definitely was half baked. The barely voiced scenes killed any immersion, lazy side quests left me wondering how a game could be so good and also so bad. Now I’ll be playing Witcher 3 and RDR2 again as a palette cleanser
Probably the best review i've seen of this game so far. I'd love to hear your thoughts on XV.
Thanks, that's really cool to hear! :)
I'm definitely planning to review XV, though it'll be a while since I'm going through the series chronologically and I'm only up to VI at the time lol. That said, I think XV is a very interesting case. I plan on playing through both the original Day 1 unpatched version of the game AND the final Royal Edition version, to compare them. The launch version of XV was a big disappointment to me, but I'm betting that I'll have a significantly different view of the Royal Edition (although I doubt it can fix ALL of the issues I had with the game).
I just played the demo. The ganeplay is the only good thing about 16. Save for a few soundtracks.
I don’t have a ps5 so I can’t know for sure how true this is but this looks like a game I would dream about back in the late 90s, obtain 20 something years later then feel as if I didn’t appreciate games with simpler game design enough. When I was younger and newer to JRPGs, I thought being turn based always held them back. As i grew older and falling out of love with newer action games, I can no longer see action as the future of FF. While I had fun with FFXII, FFXV and especially FFXIII and its trilogy, they couldn’t hold a candle to my true love; FFX. I know games such as WOFF exist but they don’t quite hit the spot. Even replaying FF1 or FFVII does a better job of engaging me with the beauty of the franchise.
But with everything said, I still welcome FFXVI with open arms. I just need it out of ps5 jail first xD.
"Its missing the key inredient - courage"
5 second later
"Final Fantasy XVI does something no number title in the series has ever done before"
I def don't think this is the best FF in 20 years. FF12 blows this game awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. FF13 still felt more like a FF game like it or hate it. The rest I more or less agree with.
Thanks for sharing! FF12's main story didn't grab me, but I loved the characters and the voice acting, and the gameplay was quite fun in its own way. FF13 was a total miss for me lol.
For the engagement
Appreciate it! 😀
I will say, I started off as an Ultima hater, but I have really come around on him.
(Massive spoilers for a 2 month old game and a 2000 year old book)
Ultima may be lacking in terms of characterization, and merely a consequence of the scenario writing more than an active agent, but he serves as a really compelling thematic device in the subtext of the plot.
Final Fantasy 16 is a game heavily steeped in Gnostic ideas. Ultima is, almost to a T, the wrathful deity that Gnosticism portrays the God of the Old Testament as- the Demiurge. In Gnosticism, the Old Testament is rejected, as it believes that the ideas of the Old and New Testament (the Gospel of Jesus) are fundamentally incompatible, therefore, there is a different god as described by, say, Moses, and as by Jesus. The God of Jesus is the Monad, transcendental and not of this physical plane.
Barnabas is a royalty from a foreign land, who preaches the word of his god, brings plagues upon the land, and splits the sea.
Moses is (adopted) royalty from a foreign land, who preaches the word of his God, brings plagues upon the land, and splits the sea.
Furthermore, Jesus, as a name, is a derivative of Joshua. Can you think of two people who are born with a great destiny, perform miracles, become worshiped, die, and are resurrected?
(In this reading, Clive is Elijah and Cid is the "Liberator" reading of Moses instead of the "Harbinger" one, but this comment is long enough as is)
I think the writers knew what they were doing, and as such, Ultima served his role pretty well as the representation of the Demiurge. More potent and compelling as an idea rather than a humanistic character, but I believe that is the intent.
You could argue that the Gnostic story is, at this point, a cookie cutter JRPG plot, but I think that is because a lot of games do it somewhat poorly, or at a surface level, which I do not believe is the case with FF16. It just expects a lot out of the audience, and whether that is a flaw or not is a different argument entirely.
Funnily enough, I also think the game is "pretty good, not great", but not for any plot-related reasons, mostly.
Thanks for sharing! You make an interesting point, although I'd be worried about confirmation bias seeping into some of these conclusions. It's possible that you're reading too much into it and these analogies are just coincidences, since they are pretty fundamental archetypes/patterns that can be "discovered" in countless stories if you look hard enough.
But even assuming that you're right, this kind of subtext doesn't make the story more engaging to me. 😂
@@AltercateTV To each their own, I think it would be some coincidence that they stumbled into making the Moses archetype literally split the sea, the character named Joshua (a name from which the name of Jesus is derived) the character who goes on tour healing the sick and driving out demons, and Ultima calling Clive "Logos" just as a made up fantasy term. I suppose I can't prove that I didn't work backwards with that reading (other than saying I had no expectations for the story to be constructed the way it was), but these are far from stretches, and there's reason to believe in the intentionality of these parallels.
That being said I understand if this flavor of thematic material doesn't leave you as fulfilled in the narrative as a more character driven endgame would. No accounting for taste, and all.
Thanks for the video!
@@gamezilla345 I'll admit it does seem like more than coincidence.
At the end of the day, I can appreciate the presence of this subtext on an intellectual level, but it's not something that evokes anything in me emotionally. Like you said, no accounting for taste!
I'm thankful for your perspective, though. And I'm actually curious. I've been kind of wrestling with this "theme vs plot" problem for a while now (it came up in Xenoblade Chronicles 3, as well, for example) and I'd love to know if you have any insights as to why this kind of underlying themes resonate with you (as I assume they do)?
My personal feeling is that subtext cannot be a substitute for the text itself, but rather something that supplements it and gives it a richer meaning. In other words, if the plot doesn't grab me, I don't really care about the subtext.
Other people seem to take an opposite view. They can tolerate or even ignore a plot that doesn't grab them as long as the subtext intrigues them. And I'm really keen to dig deeper into why that might be.
Totally get it if you don't have the time or energy to address this wall of text, but if you feel like it, I'd appreciate it! Either way, thanks for a meaningful conversation.
@@AltercateTV I love talking about this stuff, so it's no burden at all
I consider myself a themes-first guy, as you correctly guessed. I can often overlook a less than stellar cast or scenario if the ideas, statements, and relations put forth by the narrative resonate with me.
This is because I engage the most with narratives that have something to say about the human condition, and make me think about concepts after the credits roll beyond "that was an enjoyable set of twists and turns", or "I liked vicariously hanging out with this character through the story".
Of course, characters and scenarios are the backbones of stories, so there needs to be a base level of competency. Your building will only be as good as the materials you have and the people you have to make it.
Suffice to say, you and I have different thresholds of "baseline", as you weren't quite gripped by the narrative of FF16, whereas I can forgive some of the more egregious flaws (shoddy pacing, optional but not really side stories) because I was interested in seeing what the story had to say /to and about/ me and the world I live in, less so what it has to say about /who/ is in that world, or /what/ happens in it. As somebody who is very into theology, the exploration of Gnostic ideas through the subtext really did it for me.
This is often contentious in otherworldly fantastical works, as by definition they inherently carry a degree of escapist appeal, and it's.... dissonant to espouse beats and ideas that go against that appeal. In a PS1 FF, Cid probably would have made it until at least the end of the second act, if not all the way through, not the halfway point, for example.
And there's nothing wrong with that, I love the PS1 FFs and there's merit to most ideas. I think FF16's (narrative and thematic) vision works for what it wants to be, which is great because I like what it has to say.
Thanks for reading my blog lol
I really appreciate you taking the time to explain your perspective. I feel like I understand your position now, and it's a very convincing one!
I'm very much a "character first" person when it comes to stories, and what I look for the most are the powerful, cathartic emotional beats that come from well-executed character arcs. Not to say that you don't enjoy that, too, but as you've kind of pointed out, the underlying themes mean more to you than they do to me. To me, themes are more or less optional. All else being equal, I prefer a story with strong themes over one without them, but I've come to realize that I won't sacrifice character and plot for it, even to a small degree.
Despite my complaints, Final Fantasy XVI is still better than most when it comes to delivering a gripping narrative, and I would say that its themes are relatively unobtrusive. After all, it took someone pointing them out to me before I noticed them - with the exception of the Yeshua/Phoenix reference, which stuck out to me. To take a more extreme example, I don't know if you've played Xenoblade 3 or not, but if you did, I think you'll agree that its story sacrifices a lot more in the name of its themes than FF16 does. And I'm guessing that you'd be okay with that, too. Because it *does* deliver some powerful themes and ideas. But, imo, at the expense of satisfying payoffs in the surface level narrative.
However, I've been struggling with these thoughts. Because when I work on my script for Xenoblade 3 (which is still in progress), I feel like a bit of a hypocrite. After all, my instinct is to criticize XC3 for sacrificing plot in the name of theme, when some of my favorite works of fiction, like Dan Simmons' "Hyperion" or the "Age of Scorpio" trilogy by Gavin G Smith are just as guilty of withholding answers to its central questions. But I *think* it comes down to expectations. Those books never gave me the impression that all of its great mysteries would be answered conclusively. And Hyperion, for example, despite never revealing its hand, left me feeling thoroughly satisfied in the end. In a sense, the questions posed by the book themselves were worth the journey. While XC3 and (to a lesser extent) FF16 somehow primed me to expect more out of the surface level story.
I haven’t finished the game yet so I’ll have to come back but I can’t wait to watch the review!
Thanks for the support! Have fun with the game!
This is very true, my friend, great video indeed! For me, FFXVI was both the most enjoyable and the most disappointing game.
My issue with XVI is that it's too shallow to be a good action game, too long to be an action game, and too empty to be a good RPG or Final Fantasy. I enjoy the game generally, especially the boss fights, but there are many aspects of it that I hate. The plot starts out promising, but it falls off the rails near the end.
Combat was enjoyable, but it lacked the gameplay complexity that would allow the player to experiment with combos and develop their own playstyle. This does not imply that the game needs to have complicated combat like any great character action title, but it has to provide players with a sense of accomplishment.
In this game, for example, you could execute jump cancelling, but the number of jumps you could perform was limited. the enemy telegraph is a mess because there is too much effect, (not IGN, but I mean it literally). The lack of weapon variety and a cooldown system destroy the combat flow (although it does look visually stunning when you spam the skills at the boss, but that's it).
Maps design and quests were very MMO though, I love 14 art style and designs, but I hate it when they it did in 16.
Thanks for sharing your perspective! :)
Sorry it took me so long to watch the video--at an hour, I wanted to make sure I set aside time for it!
Overall, we mostly align. I am almost finished with the game, but truthfully (and painfully), I'm struggling to finish it. I feel like the game relies on a crazy amount of cut-scenes (a lot even for me). The "crafting system" has been bothering me for awhile, and I DO feel a little obligated with all of the sidequests. With all of that said, I LOVED Cid and hated to see him die. The combat system feels incredibly fluid (except for how unnecessary magic often feels), and I really enjoy the overall combat loop. I also appreciate the romance between Clive and Jill. Overall, I'm looking forward to finishing it.
A thought I'm having about this game is that, with FF games taking near-decades to finish nowadays, 'misses' feel so much more impactful than they used to. Anyone who was disappointed by FF8 only needed to wait a year to get a fresh installment. As disappointed as I've been with the game overall, I'm a little bummed that it'll probably be another decade before we'll get another one. And personally, I don't LOVE the action-RPG direction they're going. I can appreciate those games for what they are, but I would prefer them to be like Stranger of Paradise--an awesome release that doesn't impede the mainline franchise and the JRPGs that are at its core. Still, I get that not everyone shares this opinion, and I know that this has been slowly happening since FF12.
Awesome, passionate video AS ALWAYS. Thanks for the time and care you put into analyzing these games! I've been working on 100%-ing the mainline series (I've finished 1-4 Pixel Remasters, 7, and 8, going to start 5 Pixel after I finish 16), and I always love seeing your retrospectives and reviews. Keep up the awesome work, and let me know if you need any help!
Hi Will! :) It's great to hear your thoughts about the game. Couldn't agree more about Cid. It felt inevitable that he'd die, but I honestly think it was a mistake. The story was SO much more fun with him around. Honestly, a core party of Clive, Jill, Cid, and (eventually) Joshua would have made for an amazing experience, I think.
Great point about the production cycle of these games. It's CRAZY to me to think about how FF8, 9, and 10 were released in successive years. Just blows my mind lol. If there had been only a year between FF15 and FF16, I probably would have shrugged off most of the criticisms I had about FF15.
I'm probably okay with the action game direction they're taking, though a part of me definitely laments that they didn't continue down the FF10 route. FF10 has one of the absolute best turn based combat systems I've seen, and they left so much potential on the table when they went in the opposite direction. The early Trails games have more or less the same basic turn based setup, and playing those games recently reminded me of how much fun it can be.
Thanks for your kind words and encouragement as usual (it really does a lot to keep my fighting spirit alive lol) and good luck with your 100% quest! Keep me updated on how it's going. What was the hardest thing to do so far?
@@AltercateTV frankly, the pixel remasters are easy to 100%. So just 7 and 8 that are challenging, and even they aren’t that hard. 9 is going to be crazy though. Have to do the jump rope mini game… 😵💫
Dear god, good luck lol. You have some “fun” minigames coming up in FFX too…
Best and most honest review, a good imperfect game, one that at least we wont forget
Thank you! Yep, well said.
I have played all FF games. I hate 15 and I think i will skip on this one...
For what it's worth, I liked this one a LOT more than the launch version of FF15...
I disliked ff15 as well, and just finished 16 and can safely say 15s story was better. The only reason to play 16 is for the combat, but you would be better off playing elder ring if that's the case.
FFVII will probably stomp all over it
Rebirth? Fingers crossed!
Another great FF review from a great FF content creator
Thanks so much Robb, I really appreciate the encouragement! :)
@@AltercateTV my pleasure bro, I appreciate the content
Excellent video! The game had stellar cutscenes, great combat (that got stale), some good sidequests, neat graphics/world. But it got stale 2/3 in. There are no secrets (okay maybe a worthless chest or 2 at a fork off the main path) or minigames, open world stinks, not many abilities, no status effects, crafting sucks..i had fun no doubt but man i do not want to play the game again
Thank you! Yeah, that’s how I feel too right now. It was fun but I’m not sure when I’d ever come back to the game…
Best breakdown of this game.
Thank you! :)
Exactly the thing i was thinking. Cid is awesome and it makes it much more reasonable to do side quests, since he is the politican. Also how weak that clive didnt keep the mark of the bearer
It would have been kind of interesting if Clive had kept the brand. Especially if the story had focused more on changing society to make a better life for the bearers!
For me so far its fantastic and really enjoying it! i'm not even 40% done but i'm taking my time as you should with all FF games. I'm reading all the lore and really getting into the world and characters. Sure there's a few things to be improved but overall its another brilliant FF title and well deserving of game of the year in my opinion.
Yep i agree mate, i'm 65% through and just when you think it can't get any better, then it does! So far its one of my favorite FFs
Ironically, your experience perfectly matches how I felt about the game when I was about 40% of the way through! Glad to hear you’re enjoying the game, have fun with it!
One thing i hated are the animations when outside of the cut scenes, they are horrible loke its 2008. Especially when there is a very nice cut scene and then it jumps to the stiff in game animations it really breaks the emersion
The fact that a player requires to have be a emphatic type of person in orden to understand the feelings of the characters might have, it's not a good subcontext for the narrative of this game. In nier automata for example you could deduce how 9S personal feels and toughts by route A, thinking about it. On route B those feelings and thoughts are presented in your face through the gameplay. Here that never happens. You KNOW Clive and Jill deep know each others beliefs and intentions, but you never see that unfold in the gameplay step by step.
Thanks for sharing! Yep, the game is way too cagey when it comes to the relationships between characters. That was a huge missed opportunity to me, especially since there was so much filler that could have been cut to make space for this stuff.
Fair and sound review. I think the game is a good game, but I would never have played it unless it had FF in its title. The fisting in space was epic ^^
i quite like it. a lot of the described disappointment comes from inflated expectations, some of which are a bit unrealistic given the reality "modern" games must face.
JRPGs are known for their "teams", and much of the "bonding" of the team (or actually rather with you as a player of the entire team) happens when you level up the individual characters and then employ them in turn-based style battling monsters. in many of those battles, the protagonist may not even be needed. JRPGs also are known for fantasy-filled overly grandiose and sometimes absurd stories that blow many a mind.
alas, these aspects suffer when taken to modern hyper realistic 4K action games, in a comparable way as it happens with live-action adaptations of manga and anime (these usually disappoint). hyperrealism makes it incredibly difficult to suspend the disbelief as the smallest error may rip you out --- and they need to keep it up during 50+ hours of gameplay, not just 2+ hours of a movie. and what to do with the more absurd features.
action games make it also difficult to play "a team", if the game should be playable and enjoyable by a broad range of gamers.
considering the cost of developing a game of that type, risk is not something you would like to maximize, at least not when you are square enix rather than a kickstarter.
given the enormity of these challenges, the FF team really did an extraordinary job.
Glad to hear you enjoyed the game! I had a pretty good time with it overall, despite my complaints. :)
I disagree heavily with many points, but frankly, when you got to Clive, I had to write my displeasure.
Clive is a great protagonist who continues to grow throughout the game. He does not remain static once he defeats his inner ifrit self: he continues to be plagued by regret and empathy for his actions again and again, finding the courage to go on because he refused to be defined only by that. When he faces ultima the first time and defeats him, ultima seeks to break his will, and we see that he is full of self-doubt. He nearly DOES break, serving only because of the love of brother brining him back.
It’s this sense of love that defines him. Love for country: for bearers, for people, for Cid, Jill, and especially his brother. It’s what kept his sword from killing Jill after 13 years, not righteousness, and sane as well. His fight with barnabas has that on full display: with equal power granted by shiva, it’s Clive’s love for Jill adding onto his own that finally lets him defeat Barnabas. It’s why he wins in the end.
So to label this guy as “generic fantasy hero” is-frankly-disingenuous, and ascribes him as nothing more than a meathead. He’s not. What his arc is in the game is starting out as a perfect son, then regressing into a bitter assassin for over a decade, before painfully dragging himself into the light, and to the kind, loving man the world needs him to be. Everything else tests him on that journey, and him destroying ultima affirms his choice to love, in spite of everything.
Your critique mentions NONE of this, bar a few points. It’s frustrating to see you not cover this matter, because he deserves the respect you-unfortunately-have not given him.
Thanks for sharing! I appreciate your perspective and I think you make some good points.
Let me first clarify that I didn’t mean to imply that Clive is a bad protagonist. On the contrary, I think he’s a great fit for this story. He’s very likable, his struggles are relatable and compelling, and he’s definitely not a meathead. I think he displays a lot of intelligence throughout the story and he’s very thoughtful and compassionate, though sometimes blinded by his own pain. Which is cool.
I also agree that Clive’s decision to save Jill even at the cost of becoming an outlaw is a great moment. That said, I don’t really agree with the “dragging himself into the light” part. Even at his worst, Clive is still a good man who clearly cares about people. He talks about killing indiscriminately in the 13 years that we missed, but we don’t really get to see any of that firsthand, which I think was a mistake. From what we actually get to see, he’s no more ruthless than any of his companions.
The thing is, I actually liked Clive a lot, but I guess because I spent most of the time in the video trying to make my points about how the story could have been better, that doesn’t come across. Which is on me. When I say that he’s kind of a boring guy, I don’t mean that he’s a bad character or that his journey isn’t compelling, but that his personality (outside of his more emotional moments) is pretty flat. Which is why I felt the game should have surrounded him with its more colorful cast more often. He really works well when he’s playing off of them.
You make some other interesting points that maybe I should address, but you said I’m being disingenuous, so I feel like I’d be wasting my time if I did lol. Anyway, thanks again for weighing in!
Too bad Clive shows very little growth in the game, and is about as 2d as a Sonic character....
difference between a good game a competent game