Why are some pedals noisy? Daisy chains, Milliamps and POWER issues
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 12 янв 2020
- Part 2 of our discussion of power supplies, pedal board power, and in this episode some talk about eliminating noise and problems with your pedals and pedalboard via the most often overlooked issue - Power!
Purchase Pedal Power 2 Plus: amzn.to/39JwDeq
Purchase Pelitaur: amzn.to/37U2w2n
Purchase Tubescreamer: amzn.to/2sYtPtp
Purchase Pelitaur: amzn.to/2T7Cl45
Purchase Pantheon: amzn.to/2s6BK7A 
Видеоклипы
As a 20 year electrician I thought your water hose, sprinkler(s) analogy was great! You have a real knack for explaining sometimes difficult to understand information in a way most anyone can understand despite their experience in the subject. Love you videos!
Still one of the most informative, no BS channels on YT. Makes some damn fine pedals to boot. Thanks for all that you do!
Unlike some other RUclips guitar related channels, I've never seen a Wampler upload that I didn't like, and even if I did, I'd probably still give it a thumbs up. Cheers.
Wampler and JHS do us right, my dude.
Once again, thank you for explaining this subject so WELL. I appreciate your expertise and your channel/videos!
I had this problem today, and I figured Brian had done a video on it.
Those of a certain age know well that actually ALL power is daisy-chained. Everything in your house or apartment is common from a single source feeding the building, and all the buildings on your block are being fed by a common source as well. Fifty years ago, if my mom was using the sewing machine, or the compressor in the fridge went on, the static noise created by motors messed up pretty much every audio appliance in the rest of the house - guitar amp, stereo, radio, tv - because those various motors produced spikes on the shared power line. Since that time appliances have been designed to minimize such problems arising from shared daisy-chained power.
In the last 20 years, more and more pedals are digital in nature, with high-frequency internal clocks that, just like mom's sewing-machine motor, produce spikes on the power lines. The spikes are at such a high frequency that you won't/can't hear them. However, spikes on the power lines can produce a kind of ring-modulator effect when they meet, termed "heterodyning". This results in the sum and difference of the two clock frequencies being produced when they meet. If you can't hear a 2megahz buzz, then you most certainly won't hear the buzz produced when two high frequency clock spikes meet and sum. Their difference, however, is another matter. For example, if one pedal is running at 2.01mhz and another at 1.99mhz, they are both *nominally* running at 2mhz, and easily meeting a precision spec that says they aren't more than 1% off from their nominal frequency. They sum to 4mhz, *BUT* their difference is a mere 5khz, which you most certainly *WILL* hear.
Power filtering on appliances like sewing machines, fridges, and TVs, power supplies has been adapted over the years to insure that spikes from one are not impacting on any of the others. For some of the earliest digital pedals, they would run blissfully silently on their own, but if you stuck two on a pedalboard, and made them share power, all hell broke loose, and people would complain about a "wasp's nest" of buzzing, often returning pedals to the store under the assumption that something was wrong with the pedal. In fact, the problem was digital pedals sharing power lines, and interfering with each other like mom's sewing machine did with my amp.
There were several avenues to fix this. One was to use power supplies that provided isolated outputs such that no output could interfere with any other. The other was to design digital pedals to prevent clock spikes from exiting the pedal on the power line. Earlier digital pedals tended to lack this, though in response to customer complaints probably anything made during the last 8-10 years likely has built-in protection against power line noise and heterodyning. One could, in theory, daisy-chain such pedals without fear of noise. But their current consumption is likely high enough that two or more on the same power line is likely to exceed available current.
Mark Hammer : My mom’s sewing machine came equipped with a Singer noise-gate. Circa- 1947. We didn’t daisy-chain shit. Nor shall we ever. Only DI inputs.
@@davemoskot7772 Ah, she had the Singer *Custom Shop* model. :-) My mother went for the Squier model.
Great point Mark!
Awesome comment, that heterodyning thing is something I hadn't thought of before, although I was certainly aware of switching/clock noise. Makes total sense to me.
The point I made is correct, but the math certainly isn't! In fairness to myself, I wrote the original comment while coming out of the sedation (and prep day!) from a colonoscopy. Plays havoc with your math skills.
The difference between the two clocks described would be 20khz, which you wouldn't hear. But suffice to say that digital pedals will have more than one clock in them, or rather a master clock divided multiple ways, with many possibilities for heterodyning products to be audible. That's why running two slightly older digital pedals on a shared power line produces a "wasp's nest" sound: many *different* high-frequency heterodyning products.
Note as well that many higher-current wallwart supplies are of the "switching" variety, which also have clocks in them, as do many analog time-based effects like flangers, chorus, and delay. There are a great many possibilities for clocks in different appliances to duke it out on a shared power line. Best to keep them out of each other's way.
If you're at NAMM, Brian, have fun, and I hope Terraform makes a big impression.
My man!!! great explanation and just what i needed!!!!
That tele is giving me a heart attack.
Teles are like the AK47 of guitars, You can treat them like crap, and they still work. ;)
Informative video! I'm perfectly content to consume your videos at whatever pace your comfortable putting them out. Stay happy and well.
Excellent job teaching, very helpful. And of course great pedals. cheers
The break did you some good. I'm really digging the recent videos. Great job, dude.
Great video, very informative!
Thank you! Love my equator and your videos!
Just wanted to say that I really enjoy all your videos. ok, me and 100k other people. FWIW, seems like no matter what pedal board I setup to use with whatever guitar an amp, the Tumnus always finds it's way on the board because it just works and makes the guitar sound better and like every time and every scenario. So thanks for that invention in particular.
Nice to see the hydraulic analogy!
Thanks Brian.
thanks, this was really helpful.
Great video!
I was right. Thank you for confirming it. I just built a new 5 pedal board, using a 5 connector daisy chain with a Dunlop 9 volt supply. Once I got to pedal #3, noise and ringing started. Noise stopped when 3 through 5 were connected seperately. So tomorrow, new power supply.
I knew it was a problem because of the noise, now I understand why, thanks great video. My worst pedal is my Keeley work stations compressor. It must require more power than most, or it has something to do with the circuit.
perfect explanation
Love the content and information you provide 2nd best. First favorite are your pedals buddy They are just money! Pantheon is my favorite "so far" CHEERS
TLDR: don't use daisy chains if you can help it. The results are awful.
Here's the deal with any audio equipment, and this applies across the board, and you don't need any deep knowledge to keep this in mind: You want to avoid any situation where you have both the signal grounds and power supply grounds connected together across two or more pieces of gear, as this will introduce noise, especially with unbalanced audio connections such as is used on guitars. Electrical isolation is key. This is why good power supplies have multiple outputs that are isolated. This is also why various boxes are available that can electrically isolate your signal, and why many DI boxes have a ground lift switch.
If you daisy chain several pedals, the power supply ground is connected together between the whole lot, and so is the signal ground. This introduces what is called ground loops, where the two grounds form a closed circuit that allows small currents to flow. This introduces all kinds of noise issues from external sources such nearby equipment and appliances, nearby wiring, as well as RF noise (Yes I've picked up AM radio stations with my pedalboard). It also introduces power supply noise, and interference from other pedals, so a classic issue is digital pedals introduce switching and clock noise into the chain via high gain pedals.
I get this is repeating what Brian said, and of course he knows his stuff, but I feel he and many other knowledgeable people online are struggling to explain these issues in layman's terms. He himself admits the difficulty with it. The big issue is that the explanation depends a lot on the knowledge level of the recipient, which in this case is a large audience that varies between extremely knowledgeable to no knowledge at all.
I'm have some electrical/electronic engineering background with a deep interest in audio. Noise problems and "tone suck" are also two problems I have successfully solved several times, so if anyone is having these issues feel free to ask me. The internet is great for this kind of stuff.
Thank you for expounding on what Brian said and I do need some advice. I've slipped into a slow journey of designing my first pedalboard, born out of disappointment with multi-effects which I've used since the 90s, and amazement of individual pedal quality. I've pretty much settled on the ones I plan on using (about 8-10 devices requiring power) and in which order. My final factor landed me here. Power. CLEAN power. Unintended noise of any kind makes me crazy. My favorite effect is reverb, which unfortunately reveals the most noise. I've already confirmed the noise is not coming from my guitar or bass, as they are clean when going directly to their amps. The two types of devices I plan on using to prevent noise are a pedal board power supply, such as the Gator G-BUS-8, and plugging that into a power conditioner (such as Panamax). Now if execute on this, do those pedal board power supplies handle pedals with different amperage? Some pedals are the standard footprint, others are 2 to 3 times the size. In the end, people clearly have negotiated this obstacle as I've seen many concerts where all guitarists and bassists have large board setups without a trace of hum, hiss or buzz. Thoughts?
@@johncbeer A power conditioner could be a good idea, but in my opinion one should start with the basics and get them right first. Isolated power supply is a must for low noise. The Gator Gbus 8 isn't isolated as far as I'm aware from the forums, it's a 9v and an 18v daisy chain in a box. I'd love to be corrected but this is the info I have at the moment. I would recommend Voodoo Labs, Joyo or 1spot but there's tons of brands out there now. Strymon has one now. Pricey, but it has one of the highest milliamps ratings of any supply I've seen, and it's expandable. Power conditioner, in my humble opinion is not necessary if you have a good power supply, because the supply should do that job itself. Power conditioning amps is another story, and you could benefit from doing that. The other thing that helps a lot with noise, tone suck and the potential for pedal failure stopping your gig, is a pedal switcher, or looper as they're sometimes called. This takes unused pedals out of the circuit. Cheap ones are basically a row of true bypass switches, and they work fine, you can even make one yourself. I have a Free The Tone ARC-53M. This uses relays, and has an incredible buffer circuit that fixes long cable issues and enhances tone, it can be programmed with patches, can control pedals like the Strymon Timeline via midi, and it can itself be controlled by midi. It can also control your amps foot switch system as well.
A good buffer at the start of your chain, and possibly at the end of the chain as well is also important, not so much for noise, but for tome quality. It can be just a pedal that is buffered bypass but with a really good buffer, or a dedicated buffer, or in my case my pedal switcher, which is a one stop shop.
Some old school fuzzes and wahs don't like a buffer being fed into them, they want to see your guitar pickups directly, a lot of high end switchers have this taken into account with a dedicated loop that has no buffering.
The next thing is a noise suppressor that can be used in the 4 cable method which has a send return loop that you put all your non time based effects into.
Another thing, use good patch cables, keep them as short and tidy as possible, keep power away from signal where possible, and where a power cable and an audio cable meet, have them cross at 90 degrees or thereabouts, not parallel with each other. Also keep high gain pedals, especially hand made fuzz boxes with really basic circuitry away from the power supply if possible, it's not a major issue, but these pedals don't exactly have low noise circuit design, they pick up everything.
Your question regarding amperage should not be an issue with most good quality power supplies, but check the specs, most of them will have a range of different outputs that support different amounts of milliamps, and the more recent the model the more likely it will support big digital pedals that draw 500mA.
In summary, quality isolated power is number 1 priority, and some manufacturers are sneaky about whether their product is actually isolated, either making no mention, or having only s couple of isolated outputs split into lots of physical jacks, so they can get away with claiming it's isolated, when it's effectively several separate daisy chains.
Weird...my reply never posted the other day. Thanks for the details! I understood most of it, but what is a buffer in this context? I only understand it in terms of software and hardware buffering.
A S C E N D E D W H I T E M A L E
After some exhaustive process-of-elimination type testing and more, I *think* I've narrowed the worst-offending noise source in my home recording setup to RF noise.
Assuming this to be accurate (I accept it may not) any suggestions on dealing with RF noise specifically. I'll add that this noise has a pattern to it where the noise oscillates in intensity maybe once every two seconds or so (I need to measure).
I initially thought the culprit might be some LED lighting in my computer case but alas even with that PC shut completely off the patterned noise persists.
Hey so idk if you are still replying 😂 but I bought a looper pedal that was cheap with good ratings. Random off brand. I get a white noise hiss like gain when I use it. It drives me nuts. Do I need to buy a nicer looper altogether?
That's a really good point at the end, there. Every one of those 100uF, 220uF, and beyond, input capacitors just got paralleled together with the daisy chain wires. Worse yet, those wires have non trivial resistance with each of those input capacitors, so that might make a bunch of unintentional Pi CRC filters on the power rails. Very good point indeed. Also true of your digital pedals and pedals with noisy oscillators like Flangers and Choruses in what you said as they can introduce heterodyne whining into the power rails too.
Exactly! How can it be fixed? Is there a way by changing capacitor values?
@@arturoarmendariz2305 it would be more complicated than just changing the capacitors. You could use ferrite beads or chokes to help, or even have the power input go through an active filter, or, as Brian mentioned, go through a power isolator circuit, usually in the form of a transformer. Basically, you are fighting the fact that daisy chained power cables are just big antennas and you will need to filter that out before letting the power get to your stuff.
Thank you Brian for sharing.
I tried all and every way of powering my board. At the end i'm on 2 daisychains, both powered by a powerbank 30000 mAh.
No hiss or hum even under worse conditions.
And for the worst case i carry 2 NUX filters (each 9$), wich can be plugged in series to the DC power cabel. These filters also help when digital pedals causing hiss.
Sounds sub optimal, because you will still have ground loops because of the daisy chains, but you can probably avoid the worst of it by having your power come from batteries rather than mains. I would at least try to isolate your digital pedals from your analog pedals, especially dirt pedals. Digital pedals are themselves the most noise resistant, but also create the most noise in other pedals. I find they tend to be delays and reverbs ect at the end of the chain, so any noise they pick up is negligible. Dirt pedals on the other hand don't create much noise but they pick up the most noise. I've had not to many problems daisy chaining dirt pedals, but with each additional one you tend to get a slight increase in noise, and it all accumulates, resulting in a rig that has a lot of noise, but no single pedal adds much, making diagnosis impossible.
I have a pretty big board, and it's very low noise even with very high gain pedals, because I spent a lot of time working out how to get it low noise, as well as low "tone suck". Low noise is possible.
A S C E N D E D W H I T E M A L E
Lot's to read, even for a non native speaker, but i think i got what you saying. 😊
I have 2 Daisys, one for the digital stuff and one for the analog. I run about 5-8 pedals on my boards, so it works pretty well, i really tried every way powering my boards.
With the power banks no ground loops and i can take it out for busking.
I wouldn't use that method for big boards and daily touring conditions.
Thank you!!
Great video as I thought my daisy chained supply at times wasn't pouring the balls to my pedals consistently !!
I agree completely. Instead of a daisy chain, go with a dedicated power supply.
The power supply I use is the Strymon Zuma.
I LOVE my Pinnacle Deluxe V2 but it’s the noisiest OD/drive pedal I own. And I own several Wampler dirt pedals. They’re simply the best! 👍🏻🎸
That’s because the pinnacle has gigantic gobs of gain (not to be confused with clipping- ) , anytime gain is increased noise is increased.
@@wampler_pedals Thanks for the explanation, been wondering the same thing. Would a noise gate help remove the hiss or is that just the nature of the high gain beast?
@@BeeJonez Noise gates absolutely fix the issue, but you want to start with a low noise rig, and add the noise gate on to compliment it. No use trying to fix a rig that's set up wrong and giving you lots of unnecessary noise with a gate. I use the Boss NS2, which many people dislike, but I love. I strongly recommend putting a noise gate that can be used in the 4 cable method on your board, and put all your dirt pedals and non time-based pedals (compressors and EQs are terrible for introducing hiss too) into the loop of your noise gate.
So with the NS2 guitar goes into the INPUT, then out of the SEND to the chain of noisy pedals, and then from the chain of pedals back into the RETURN, and then the OUTPUT goes to your amp or to your delays and reverbs.
The beauty of this system is the gate is triggered by your naked guitar signal but is clamping down on the noise of the pedals. Your pedals could be making noise that's louder than your guitar, but nothing but sweet sweet silence will come out unless you pluck a note.
If you use the two cable method, the gate is simply being set to cut off any sound below a certain volume, and this sounds awful, and is either completely ineffective or very intrusive depending on settings. With 4 cable, you are starting with the cleanest possible signal, and using that to control the gate, not some arbitrary cutoff level.
My rig is very silent, but my NS2 never feels like it's turned on. It just magically eliminates noise. It's also useful for something like a self oscillating fuzz like some of the Devi Ever ones with the "chaos" mode. These pedals actually make more sound (more ear rapey sound too!) when you are NOT playing. With these in the NS2 loop, they are silenced when I'm not playing, making the horrible noises much more useful.
I cut my daisy chain ends off and found random old power supplies connected them together. The noise was horrible with any of my pedals with them all strung together. Isolating the power supplies was the best way I found.
Good job
Thanks Brian. Great info.
Do you make a pedal that gives bass that warm break up (clipping) sound like Bernard Edwards bass on I'm Coming Out by Diana Ross
great info as always, quick question, my pedalboard is powered by a dc brick by mxr. it doesnt have a power switch so it always on, is it okay to leave the power plugged in while all pedals are turned off when im done playing or should i unplug the power supply every time im done?
In the case of the 1Spot, exceeding the max mA will cause the 1Spot to turn off. When you unplug enough pedals to reduce the load to below the 2amps it will turn back on and power the remaining pedals. As far as noise True Tone has demonstrated time an again that it’s as quite as a PP. There are instances with certain pedals that can cause noise (hiss, whistles etc. depending on the pedal) when daisy chained.
I’m using probably three daisychains on a board with 32 pedals,with 3 -1 spot adapters, quiet as a mouse if you do it right. I put my sons paddleboard together with the nice VUDU lab power, because he likes to be sure, but if you take your time sometimes the one spots will work for you.
"Now, daisy chains... "
Can you please do a video on the Triple Wreck? I haven’t found an in depth one.
It’s my favourite pedal in the world.
I don't use Daisy chains any more
I only use isolated power supplies. Great analogy.
I have a MXR ISO box. I really love it and it has cleaned up my sound from when I used to use a daisy chain. But does it matter where you plug in the iso box? Like the wall versus the power strip and so on?
Your power is only as good as the input that’s feeding it. If you have a nice power supply and you plug that into a cheap ikea power STRIP, you’re subject to whatever build quality and noise is applicable with that power STRIP. With a wall-direct connection, you only have to deal with the home or commercial wiring which is much more standardized and generally cleaner than thrown together strips. I would advise against the whole strip approach if possible and go with a wall to well-built extension cord approach if you need more length.
It might be helpful to talk about using a power supply in terms of adding up current load (milliamperes) for the power outputs. For example, I have an “isolated” power supply with multiple outputs. Half are 100 ma - enough for at least 1 typical analog pedal. Others are 250 ma. I only have 1 pedal that draws over 100 ma (Echoplex), but I could do a small daisy chain off of each of the other 250ma outputs.
Also there’s some experimentation required. I’ve used a One Spot for a long time, and it works fine with most combinations of pedals. However, that Echoplex does some peculiar stuff in terms of noise combined with specific other pedals. My BYOC Germanium Fuzz Face is wired to accept “normal” power polarity (I can’t remember if it’s center or sleeve positive), but that simple circuit doesn’t seem to “play well with others.” OTOH I can put multiple Tube Screamer circuits, a DS1, and an MXR Badass Distortion all on one daisy chain with no problem.
Most pedals take a 9 volt supply. However, others require 18 volts and apparently some take 12 volts (seems very rare). When someone is choosing a power supply it will help to know which of your pedals, if any, require more current (ma) or a higher voltage.
I read that volts are the speed of cars going down the highway, and that the amps/current are how closely the cars are spaced
Great video! Where could I find shelves like that?
Those look fantastic for displaying pedals.
I actually built them
pls help, I've got a pedaltrain board with a Voodoo Labs Mondo mounted underneath, but if I even place a pedal over the top of it, the cable (and/or maybe the pedal) is picking up hum and noise frequencies coming out the top of it, no matter if it's a cheap cable or a shielded, have even tried putting tin foil between the two. Any advice? Would be cool to see a video lesson on building boards, what cables to get, how to route them etc
Great info! how about the new style battery power supply’s? I got a low budget one and love it!
What kind/brand do you have? This is so you can play outside with no plugging into a wall outlet right? I was looking into a Joyo unit. Looks cool!
Harley Benton 🤘🏽
Any idea why my mxr zw-od is so noisy in the effects loop of my hx effects? I can only assume something to do with a buffer in the loop but most other pedals sound fine. Any solutions?
man does seem two be a fender guitar situation... i always had such a pain getting my stratocaster sound the same... there is always a half hour of turn that up turn that this way situation..made me get a new guitar i love this prs custom
...
Really? I had the same problem but with my PRS custom and switched to a strat.... hmmm
@@maykolllopez1585 sounds like a pickle hmmm
What's your take on daisy chaining off of a single output of a pedal power supply, as long as the pedals being chained all match the voltage output, and their combined current draw is below that of the power supply's output? Also, do ferrite beads work or help with noise if they are clipped onto the power supply's output cables?
Daisy chaining like you you said should be fine. Also mixing in digital pedals or pedals that run clocks of some sort, can introduce noise onto the power supply so try to separate those if you can. Ferrite beads/chokes will suppress high frequency noise so mainly stuff like radio frequencies and the like. They are not really going to help for 60 cycle hum and other lower frequency noise.
I've made a few boards recently using Strymon Zumas and usually daisy chaining distortion, fuzz, and overdrives. Like 5 or so. I dont notice any noise with that. I also do not notice noise with any other daisy chaining. I like daisy chaining. No noticable noise issues there. Nothing stands out to me..However, I did notice an audible click when my Boss DD7 delay was not on its own power. It was the digital clock inside creating a click every time the pedal light flashed indicating the tempo of the delay. So basically I just make sure the time based effects are isolated@@SkankinMoshPit
Also make sure the polarity of your supply matches the pedal if it is DC.
I don't have more than about 8 pedals on my board. Going for minimalist approach. All of them are "quiet" except for my nano Big Muff Pi which gives a lot of hum when not playing through it but it is on. I have a new power supply coming to try and isolate the pedals. Is this a reasonable solution or am I missing something? THanks.
Chinese pedal brick power suppliers say their power supplies are isolated. Isolated from what, truth in marketing?
So, what is, how do you make, and how can you tell if a powersupply is actually "isolated" - I guess with that term meaning, there is no noise created by using the powersupply, and that the electricity isn't sluggish... I'd like a technical description of THAT too! Lol.
Interesting! I came to this video precisely for that. I daisy chained a Boss MT-2 Metalzone in parallel with a digital Zoom RFX-300 and it makes oscillating noises.
That last part about power filter in each pedal being added together got me thinking. How could i fix it? Do i have to change capacitors values on pedals? Or to use independent power supplies for each pedal?
I’m pretty sure they sell power supply chains that have an opposite frequency.
There was a company in China that sold a great product it was a 12 output patch bay type box that you can send the separate little power cords to your pedals. It did not come with a wall wart power supply. This is good because you can use what you need 12v or 18v or 9v and with 500 ma or a 1 or 2 amp power supply. They were made of a sturdy acrylic plastic that has caused me zero problems for 3 years already.The best thing is you no longer get the aggravation of a daisy change of the length of the cable between pedals being too long or too short. Your whole board looks tidy and pro. They were only $15.00 USD with free shipping which included all the a dozen cables to go to the pedals. I bought 4 before they folded.
Hooray, a glorified daisy chain. That's going to make things more tidy, but it's also going to cause noise.
@@Patrick-857 The best place and often it's the often the cheaper way to deal with the noise is to use a UPS at the source. You can often get a used office/industrial one used cheap. Thrift stores get them and practically give them away. No noise ...and protection for all the gear. You still have to deal with the noise the pedals make. A pedal is never compatible with every pedal made by every company. The odds are at least one or more pedals will create some noise. All dirt pedals create at least some noise. I use 68 pedals on two boards that are linked.together. The pedals are all in one of 4 loops and each loop has a Smart Gate.
I have tried them all. The best is the ISP though the new SMG is nearly as good and if the noise is lighter the TC Electronic is good. I have NO problems with the gates mistriggering or cutting off the tail of a note. The fact is you can deliberately shorten the 'release' of the notes waveform and tighten up the sound. Every channel on my own rig has it's own effects, EQ and compression. My clean channel has a compressor on input and output of the loop.I strive to create a live sound that sounds like a studio Post production final mix. it works ..I can and I do. I play only my own music. At any gig there many who have never heard my tunes. I ONLY GET ONE CHANCE TO MAKE A FIRST IMPRESSION.If you get paid to play the audience has the right to say you are great or you are sh@t. Like it or not you MUST invest in your sound! I still have an ordinary day job as laborer. I do not make the 'big' money. It is all about priority my rig is easily worth $20,000.00. I fail to see ANY business that does not have that much spent even if it is for a startup. Even the Uber guy needs a car.
Can I used a daisy chain for boss PSA230 adapter ?
Do you guys use CM chokes in the power decoupling of your pedal? Just off the top of my head they would theoretically help, but probably have to be beefy because you're dealing with low audio frequencies. Maybe an iron CM choke?
It's really not going to fix the issue imo. The the solution is clear: isolate the power supply to each pedal.
So, Voodoo Lab Pedal Power II, individual hookups no daisy chain, humbuckers, George L cables. Overdrive pedals still noisy; maybe with all that the power coming out of the wall is just bad from the start?
The noise you get when there's some pedals plugged into the same board is more likely ground loops. The ground has two paths. One through the pedal itself, and one in the power supply ground. There are two ways to prevent this. Individual power supplies, or, as I've been done since some time is to connect the power ground on only one of the connectors.
Yep, ground lift essentially. The power can return through the signal ground instead. It works like a charm, but it's probably not the most ideal solution. Proper power supplies should be considered an essential.
A S C E N D E D W H I T E M A L E in fact there's a problem if the power consumption of the pedals is considerable, cause all the current will return through the ground of the pedals. But for a few hundred milliamps, like six or seven pedals, it's not a big deal. My board has currently 14 pedals, 5 in one power supply, and the rest in the other. Only one pedal from each group is directly connected to the supply ground.
I got a problem, hope some one can help. When I plug in my pedals and tube amp into the same outlet, the amp sounds like a bag of ass, snap crackle hiss hum and random loss of tone and vol. Never had this problem with my solid state amps. Is there something wrong with my tube amp? Or possibly the outlet in my house?
Very cool thanks yeah I have a Keely Monterey that I don't use cause of oscillating ghost noises Kinda light whale calls lol but not funny it was expensive Even when I use a proper singular wall wart it happens 😕 I love the old battery days I'm thinking I should send it back for him to look at Is that taboo etiquette in Pedal World ? It was my first real modulation pedal my GF got me for Xmas a couple years ago Thanks Brian
Not at all- def give a shout to Robert K, I’m sure he’d have no problem at all taking care of it 👍🏻
Here's something weird. Maybe someone can explain it. I used to have an EQD Depths v1. It had a crazy hum when used with my Pedal Power Plus 2 if it was above it. It was quiet with a daisy chain.
Truetone makes a mA tester. Very cool little tool for building a pedal board. Its around 30 bucks and is also a cable tester.
A digital multi meter can be found as low as ten bucks, and you can do more than just measure current and test cables with it. Every guitar player should have a DMM. There are so many uses, you won't know how you got on without one.
@@FACTBOT_5000 I agree but for someone who wants to test mA of a small pedal that doesn't have a 9v battery this is simple. Cheers
@@BMitchell Simplicity can be nice. I'm on a campaign to encourage people to try new things and gain new skills. Learning to use a DMM is like learning a new card game. It's not that complicated or time consuming. The benefits of learning new skills always go way beyond the original intent. I'm surprised by how many people I meet that don't even own a screwdriver. Correcting this needless, costly, and personally limiting societal deficiency is my crusade.
@@FACTBOT_5000 -- my neighbor just had carpel tunnel surgery from too much screw driving.
@@mojoman2001 Oh, the humanity!!!!
I got away with using a non isolated power supply until I started to use the amp’s effects loop. Then the pedals between the guitar and the amp must be isolated power wise from the pedals in the loop.
How can you know if the power supplier is truly isolated? I bought a power brick that says "isolated", but it's quite noisy. I use 2 drive pedals, an MXR78 with very little gain (to get some clean-ish boost) and a Wampler Triple Wreck for my tone. I get tons of treble noise no matter what I do, especially if there are more pedals connected (flanger and delay).
Put a meter on continuity or resistance between the grounds of two different outputs. It should read infinity if it's isolated. If your meter beeps or shows very low/zero ohms, then they are definitely not isolated.
And lots of cheap power supplies are actually just daisy chains in a pretty box. It's amazing the BS manufacturers get away with. Do your research. I've got a DigiTech Hardwire pedal power supply that's designed to bolt onto a Pedaltrain. It's been rock solid for about 6 years, and my setup is very low noise. I would expect my unit is at the low end compared to a lot of others. Strymons new system looks amazing, and Voodoo Labs has been the industry standard forever.
Along with other comments here, I am also going to move towards battery operated power supplies. If the current is correct, can you simply isolate each battery lead with a diode?
Diodes won't help.
Current with lithium ion batteries is not a concern, they can put out far more than your giant pedal board will ever need. I don't get why you would go there though. Just get s basic pedal power supply from DigiTech, Voodoo Labs or any of the other reputable companies that make power supplies. These things are cheap, simple, and are designed to be mounted permanently on a pedalboard. They give you isolated outputs, and usually support multiple voltages. Battery banks don't fix the issue unless they are providing you with multiple isolated outputs, which realistically means they're taking DC from the batteries and putting it through a switch mode power supply, meaning the the output circuitry will be identical to a mains unit anyway. So in that case you gain no advantage over a conventional power supply with regards to noise, but are introducing additional points of failure.
Get a battery powered unit if you are absolutely set on going eliminating the mains power cord (Why? Your amp still needs mains power right?)
If you want to fix your noise issues, just get a proper pedal power supply with multiple isolated outs. Trust me, it fixes the problems and it's reliable. I've had mine for many years and it's still going strong. A lithium battery would have died by now, and I would have had another expense on my hands.
I like Brian and Jason 😂
Hi ya Tracii! 🙏🏼
Wampler Pedals ❤️❤️❤️
You are one of my favorite guitar players!
Got a joyo vintage overdrive, if I use it with battery there is no noise, but if i use it with power supply even if the pedal is off I Hear a piercing noise but when I turn it on its simple unusable
What kind of power supply do you use?
Pressure and flow. Voltage is PSI, and Current is GPM/CFM(this is 'murica!). Hydraulics, Pneumatics, and electronics all use the same principals and control mechanisms. Of course they are all very different, but if you understand one, you can understand them all once you learn terminology.
amp/voltage is very difficult to explain to the average person, your water hose with multi sprinklers vs one sprinkler was great.
I have this power supply, and half the time when I use it I get a hum so loud it sounds like it will blow my speakers. I returned it and the second one does the same thing. Is it a ground issue? I’ve tried lots of different plugs around my house.
keith faust probably.
It's nothing to do with your wall outlets. The power supply is already isolated from mains because it has an internal transformer. Sounds like something is seriously wrong. Break the system down to isolate what's causing the problem. You need to follow a process of elimination.
Been using daisy chains for years, never had a problem. A noise gate solves any unwanted noise when not playing, between songs
Or a tuner. Just to stop the noise. And of course to tune if you want to.
What about center-positive polarity like some Fuzzes have? Batteries, I guess.
Do a search for Reverse Polarity Converter. You can purchase a simple adapter cable. 👍🏻
Hi. I have a question. So I ran out of outlets on my isolated power supply. I ran a daisy chain to two pedals, but it was noisy. I had a hiss and what I think was clock noise. To solve that I got a regular household power strip and plugged those three pedals into that with normal wall wart things. The noise stopped. Do cheap power strips have isolated grounds? If so, why are pedal power supplies so expensive?
Dustin, I don’t think your problem was isolation but under current, or lack of available current. The daisy chain wasn’t able to provide the current needed to run the two/three(you are not clear on the number) pedals. Giving each one its own wall wart eliminated that deficit of available current.
I had a similar problem with a digital delay that was solved in exactly the same way. It got its own psu and the noise went.
@@seantighe3077 I don't know. The daisy chain was connected to a 1A power supply. It was just a Keeley Compressor, a Bluesbreaker, and a Hoof Reaper. That's at most 100 mA. Maybe something is broken, though.
All power supplies are isolated from the mains. Your wall wart power supply is isolated. You could fill up your power strip with wall warts, and have no issues. The problem starts when you use a daisy chain between pedals, because then you have two separate ground paths between your pedals, the signal ground and the supply ground. With pedals, don't even worry about mains grounding, it's irrelevant.
@@Patrick-857 Okay. Good to know.
I have a Buffer on my board. I cant find any info on the power usage. so it messes with my mind a bit.. I look at the power requirements when i am looking at new pedals to see if my power supply will work and if they call for a lot of power i may not want to mess with them. I also run small daisy chains of 2 plugs. I run some of my digi pedals together on the same line and it seems to work. most of the drives dont care but still i like to use no more than a 2 plug daisy chain. Thanks Brian
A buffer won't use much current. If its transistor based, it's probably less than 100 ma. It may be a little more if it uses an op amp, but I would bet still between 100 and 250 max. Measure the current with a DMM to find out.
Limiting daisy chains to two plugs is a great idea. 👍🏻
What brand of buffer is it? Unless it’s relay based it’s probably way under 50ma.
Try here:
stinkfoot.se/power-list
@@wampler_pedals It is a TC Bonafide buffer thanks
I run 3 out daisys on 2 of my outlets. But the pwr in is 1000mA and the pedals really don't need anything like that. My question is do all delays make crazy sounds when the regen is turned up too high? Carbon Copy is the only modulation pedal on a daisy and I've learned to keep the regen kinda turned down. Like 1:00 at the highest. Is that normal. My second delay is a DD-5 and it doesn't do that. But it has it's own pwr line alone.
Just for fun, "hide" a Twix Bar and a Reese's Cup in among the shelves of pedals and see if anyone notices!!!
Or a bar of cheddar cheese ...
Perhaps a slightly opened tin of sardines? Ok that's just cruel...
@Anton Antonson Allright, but just a wee one then ...
The coffee to go on GOT, attained a pretty high meme status, after all ...
HI can you address the counterfeit tda2050 coming out of China please it's become a problem
So a daisy chain to a powerbank battery will behave differently to having a 9v battery in each pedal?
Not in my experience.
Yes it will. Anyone saying daisy chains off battery banks don't introduce noise doesn't know what they are talking about, and doesn't understand the reason why daisy chains cause problems. Power supplies are ALREADY isolated from mains because the power goes through a step-down transformer before being converted to DC. If there are ripples coming out of your power supply, it's a crappy power supply and that noise has little or nothing to do with your daisy chain.
I'm not sure why this comment section is so obsessed with battery banks, but it's like trying to fix an unbalanced tire by putting different fuel in the tank.
Get a decent power supply with multiple isolated outputs and you will never regret it. Battery banks exist for a similar reason to cordless power tools. Since your amp needs mains, I don't really see any upsides to a lithium ion battery powering your pedalboard. It's just something that will need replacement in 5 years, and is liable to be flat at the wrong moment.
Ok yes this is interesting and all
But when you're gonna release some pedal that is higher in gain than the dracarys?
Gain or overdrive?
Hay alguna buena persona (o varias) que le pongan subtitulos a los videos de Bryan, por favor. Yo entiendo algo de ingles, pero cuando es muy tecnico me pierdo, y creo que en general sería de gran ayuda para muchos. Se agradece desde ya.
No matter how I power my flanger pedals, with batteries or even with a dedicated 2amp supply, they are noisy. Is that the nature of flangers?
There's two big reasons flangers (and similar modulation effects - chorus, phaser, etc.) are inherently noisy. The first is because they operate by duplicating the signal out of phase, which additively amplifies the background noise and makes it harder to cancel out through filtering and negative feedback. The second is the LFO. LFOs are difficult to isolate from the rest of the signal to begin with, and thus are noisy, and are constantly changing, and thus are more noticeable. Make the LFO change the phase relationship of the two background noise signals, and you've got a very noticeable noise level. It's the nature of the beast.
There has to be a way to keep your daisy chain & isolate each chain.
Im going to go ahead and put a like on this before watching it.
You too, eh? Always great info.
I have a MXR echoplex that had to use an isolated power supply otherwise it generated “Clock noise?”
I isolated it and the noise went away anyway.
had this with a whammy pedal before, it's very likely not getting enough current, your other pedals are "eating it all up"
Yes clock noise, switching noise ect. Digital pedals have all sorts going on, and everything they do is on or off, and every on and off creates noise. Digital pedals tend to have their own switch mode power supplies too, which definitely send noise back out into the supply to mess up a poor unsuspecting dirt pedal. Not much than can be done about a device whose power consumption literally consists of high frequency on/cycles, rather than being linear. Only so much you can filter out.
Stinkfoot.se is a great resource for finding the milliamps of various pedals
dude you use 15 amps!! that's rockin!! haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
I have a 1500ma pedal what power block even goes that high?
You will probably need a dedicated supply like a True Tone one spot
got 8 pedals powered by four 9v 2000mah adaptors with 1 daisy chain and it still noisy
just get a furman line conditioner. for those clubs with noisy transformers
Just got back from a jam with my buddies. My rigs been totally fine for last 2 years and when I plugged in tonight I got like 15% signal and would partially come back full at real bad times. I have a shitty power supply so I know that’s the issue..my problem is, is that at home, with exact setup it works GREAT. I spent most the time wrestling it and pretty much had to plug right into the amp like a pud. I know I need a better power supply but man like wtf. I do run 1 24v pedal and have a full donner power supply, go ahead and roast me but it’s what I can do rn lol
4:43 How many people said "I want it as quiet as I can"?
Noise gate is your friend.please shake his hand 🤚. The most underrated pedal of mankind. Unless your pedal or amp already comes with a gate. In that case, my condolences.
Noise gates are great and a must in certain styles, but they should compliment an already low noise rig, not cover up problems with a poorly performing rig that's got noise issues.
Ways to solve noise issues include: every pedal on it's own isolated supply; keep cables short where possible; good cable management, i.e. no coils and kinks, and keep power cables from running parallel with signal cables, if they must touch they should cross each other rather than run parallel; consider a pedal switcher unit if a lot of pedals are used as this will take unused pedals out of the chain completely.
Also 4 cable method > than 2 cable method with noise gates. Put your gain in the loop of the noise gate, that way the gate shuts down the noise, not your guitar.
Want to understand voltage and amperage? Do you like gaming? Do you like puzzles? If so, there's an awesome game for you! Search for "Wired the game".
The Power List: stinkfoot.se/power-list
(I used this site to look up the mA of all my pedals)
"Ostillation"
"as far as i know you're not gonna break anything" time to short some cheap unregulated chinese power bricks and listen for that telltale click of the transformer's secondary windings quietly exploding as the short tries to yank 40 amps out of em for a brief moment
Yeah, that statement was not good. If you don't push much you *might* get away with it (depending on if and how much the supplier understated the actual current handling capability), but chances are you're going to burn something in the supply, melt the supply cable, or cause a fire if you're really lucky. They don't put that number on there just for fun.
Brian ‘I’m getting off the weeds’ Wampler. Man get on the weeds
Voltage is pushed. Current is drawn.
I get it- but you MUST understand that that’s a terrible way of explaining it to the masses. My entire goal is NOT to teach engineers, it’s to reach guitar players and explain it in a way that’s easily digestible.
@@wampler_pedals -- Brian: why does my amp make so much ear shattering feedback-looping noise? Intermittently, but frequently? 99.5% it is a problem with my home electricity. But what to do? I try controlling for lights, fans, power tools.... Furman power supply helped a bit, but still a major problem. Signal chain: strat, pedals, Blues, Jr., Furman power strip, 1980 spec house wiring. Loads of subcribers like me must have this problem. Is there something available off-the-shelf, or should I hire an electrician?
@@mojoman2001 speak to ur electrician about a power conditioner
This web site lists the power consumed by a lot of guitar pedals: stinkfoot.se/power-list
Voltage is how big the bullet is, Current is how fast the bullet travels.
No it's the other way around.
Other way around mate.
Better way to describe it is that voltage is pressure, and current is flow rate.
Hey great video, with regard to noise reduction
I’m sure you have heard of spectres cock blocker,
Is there something new about what this pedal is doing, or how it goes about it, why would something breakthrough? like this circuit , it seems very good, be waiting for ol Glenn fricker to invent it,
stinkfoot.se/power-list
This is the website I use for mA and building my board, whomever might need it. :)
There it is! Thanks!
This is why I play my $25 Mooer ge100 instead of my $1000 worth of Pedals that sound like crap.
I use this website to calculate power draw for my pedal board stinkfoot.se/power-list