I think you got it pretty much covered, as far as the basics. Beware, and keep watch, because I heard that Fender is designing an engine for pedals 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔 Other than that, great video, I'm sure Rhett is proud of the work and demo.
It would help if you pause the frame or show different angles of the cable organization underneath the board the way you set it up. I feel the video goes by too fast in terms of just flashing 1 sec clips showing that. That would help us viewers to try and mimic the setup. Even better would be if you could film your set up in time lapse Thanks for the videos.
In the process of revamping my rig at present as it's long since outgrown it's power and cheap off the shelf patch cables, these videos are a great remedy to 'forum fatigue' where you leave more confused than you arrived. We're definitely entering the golden age of having your effects without sacrificing your clean amp tone, and keeping the whole thing quiet!
Thank You for sharing and caring! Cant tell you how much the tips you give have improved my rig tone as well as demystify lame things that USED to happen in my setup! Knowledge is king. You should create a book. An old skool book. Pedalboard curriculum :) I'd buy it! ... maybe you have already? if so .. let us know.
Pretty sure you just diagnosed where most of my hum is coming from, talking about the power supplies. I have 3 smaller ones under my board, and I'd almost bet money that's the problem. I'm eyeballing the Engine Room 12 and 8, as I've got quite a few pedals ;) Thanks for the always high quality and informative videos, sir!
The linear power supply issue is probably the biggest culprit, but as in pro AV, we know separating signals is always preferred. Either way, great video!
@VertexEffectsinc Hello. The Problem i have with my rig. Amp: Victory v40 clean amp I go from my guitar in my cry baby wah. From tbere into my boss OD-200 and then in the amp Front input. In the fx loop i have from in to out: - -Nux optima air -BBE sonic maximiser -Boss CE1 chorus -Boss PH3 phaser -Voodoo lab tremolo -Boss DD8 delay -Source audio ventris reverb (Thanks @mason). The Power supply is a palmer PK-T12 The instrument cables are Sommer cable spirit XXL+ neutrik plugs and the Patch cables are mogami 2319 + squareplug. I have i little bit noise and loss headroom. What in my signal chain is the problem? The Power supply? The inexistent buffer? À propos buffer: How should i know if i need one? How should i understand why i need one if some pedals got à integrated buffer ? Thanks for helping.
Recently redid my pedal board and it has a lot of big pedals causing space issues. My TC Electronics compressor loop is making a ton of noise and had never done that before and I couldn’t figure it out. But it’s sitting right on top my Pedal Power 2. So number 1 was my answer. Loving my Truetone that I got. Might sell the Pedal Power and and getting another Truetone. Thanks for the info!
I love how solderless cables got so popular. I've always hated those things. I did make my own linear power supply, however, (with the transformer encased completely inside of a grounded chassis) and it's the quietest thing I've ever used.
@@VertexEffectsInc Fully agree about efficiency, but as far as repairability is concerned, switch mode are almost always made with the cheapest smt parts & fixing a dead one is a fools errand. Linear are almost always easily fixed once they fail. (unless the transformer died during failure.).
@@nicksregor4208 cheap and surface mount aren't the same thing. Typically surface mount is lower tolerance than a through hole part and is often also less money, cheaper in that it costs less for the same thing, not that it's inferior in quality. It's not as easy to fix as a surface mount part, but that would be true of any device power supply or otherwise when comparing surface mount to through hole. For any guitar player, this conversation on the repairability is fewer than the 1% that would actually attempt a power supply repair, so I think it might be too nuanced for this avenue.
SMPSU s are massive EMF / RF sources also so are also a concern... They are good because of how they work in delivering power by using PWM (pulse width modulation) ... It is this 'clocking' that causes the EMF so needs to be within a faraday cage if possible ... Shield from the cables. Very good idea to separate power from signal and perhaps even ferrite beads might be needed in some places if separation not possible... Good cables and buffers good advice
Is there anyway to insulate the linear power supply? Putting some material around it to isolate the emf?...Don’t know if that even makes sense. Might be a stupid question. I run a mxr and pedal power 2 below my pedals. The mxr always seemed to cause noise in certain situations. Also any tips on combining two power supplies? Can that make a difference? Thanks for all your tips.
It's not easy to do it well. Sometime you can use a steel plate or mumetal to help shield a linear power supply from the EMF getting into the pedals, however there is a certain process to fabricating mumetal and bending it properly and treating it so it is most effective. Conversely, with steel, the more you use the better it shields, however, that can add a lot of weight depending on how big the magnetic field is. The more current you're drawing against the total available of the power supply, the more intensified the magnetic field will be.
@@VertexEffectsInc hi! for instance the MXR M238 has an external AC-DC brick. As opposed to the 1Spot CS6, which connects directly to the wall via IEC. Not sure if PS with a separate "power brick" help with the EMF issues. I think it's all DC after the brick. But I am not sure. (BTW love your channel!)
@Vertex Effects this may be a stupid question, but would adding some sort of EMF shielding, for those of us that already invested in linear power supplies, potentially mitigate part of that issue? I.e. adding some adhesive shielding, like Mylar, to top of the linear power supply's case, before mounting it?
I agree with 90% of what is said in this video but, I recently purchased a truetone cs 12 to replace my voodoo labs PP2 just to try out the comparison with linear and switchmode power supplies. My findings were that the linear power supply produced less noise and made my buffer and effects sound better and have a more solid tone. Guess I'm sticking with my Pedal Power 2. My 2 cents.
If both supplies are producing the same voltage and current per output, there should be no difference in sound. I don't know how you did the implementation of the two power supplies so it can be hard to fully qualify this statement. As someone that's used both hundreds of times, I can say that a linear power supply can be much more problematic in the context of a pedalboard especially when you're stretching the current limitations of the supply.
@@VertexEffectsInc I would have really liked for the CS12 to be better but I ultimately trust my ears. Many times I have run into the situation where different brand components like guitar cables, speaker cables, power tubes, preamp tubes, jacks and audio pots of the same value etc...are in theory, electronically identical. But, when you try several different brands back to back, you always levitate towards the one you feel sounds best and has better build quality. The differences are very subtle but everything in your chain adds up to shape your tone and I've experienced that power supplies are no exception.
@@deepend69 there are instances where there can be difference but depends on how you test them, most are not testing blind so they are going off of recency bias often and not actually comparing what they think they are. Most pedals have such giant power supply caps that little differences in current or voltage is pretty well quashed and this can be seen in sensitive power sources like high impedance carbon batteries.
Nailed once again uncle mason!!!!! If I’m using the same output from my power supply to power two pedals could that make a noise or how do I know which pedals can share from the same output thanks
He covers this topic in other videos, but to summarize, analog drives and compressors (and on occasion, analog octaves) are best at sharing power, because of their circuitry and negative polarity, and they filter really well, no clocks or DSPs to interfere with signal.
Pilar, I recommend focusing on combining analog only pedals in the overdrive, boost, distortion, and wah category so long as they are under the total current of your power output on your power supply and the same voltage.
The problem with my voodoo lab Mondo is, none of the power cables are long enough to separate it from all the audio cables. So that basically means I would have to buy all new power cables which is BS. That is probably the problem with my noise in my pedalboard. It’s kind a upsetting because I paid a lot for it.
That doesn't matter too much...if it's all DC it won't hurt. It could also be that the Mondo is a linear supply. If you have a Pedaltrain or system with the Power Supply under the pedals, you'll have a problem right there.
Switch mode power supplies still have smaller transformer and also emits emf but it’s usually at very high frequencies beyond 20khz, so we don’t hear it.
The HX Effects in 4 cable method sucks the tone from all my amps. Had to return it. I'm still looking for something like it that doesn't ruin your tone.
Just put the a Truetone CS6 and a Voodoo Labs X4 on the new HX Stomp board. First thing I noticed is just how quiet my board is. Yes, my (future fuzzes) are first before the Buffer Plus.
i paired a big fat AC power cable going from a phoenix toroidal power supply with a cable that goes from my buffer out to the amp, there is no difference on noise vs using them separated, the toroidaL power supply EMF only creates noise in my case when the guitar is very close to the pedal board, otherwise i tried it with a CIOCKS and there is no noticeable difference, however i prefer CIOCKS due its lightweight and small size, plus its versatility
VERTEX, try to make a Toroidal HUM Filters video lesson for guitar ampifiers and pedal boards. They are various companies that make toroidal HUM filters and Morley just came out with a Torodial HUM filter.
Great video, I like these shorter, more concise videos a lot more than the longer ones. Have you ever had problems with clicking noises in any of your boards with time-based pedals? I'm currently having this problem for the second time now and it's driving me crazy. Different pedals, different power supplies, but both pedals are a bit more on the affordable site.
VERTEX, I'm not sure if this is true or not but others have been saying when running guitar pedals at higher voltage like +18vdc or +24vdc the headroom is higher but also the quieter and noise floor is reduced. Have you tried various overdrive, distortion, dirty booster pedals on a pedalboard used with digital pedals that use VSP, DSP, VGA, chips and compared them using the same guitar pedals on the pedabboard supply them with +9vdc then comparing the noise floor using +18vdc and then comparing them using +24vdc to get the noise floor quieter. This is a way of doing noise reduction by raising the supply voltage which lowers the noise floor. Have you tried this test?
Hello. Really helpful video. I watched til the end. Please would like to know the MXR DC brick family are Switch mode or Linear? also are they real isolated?
@@VertexEffectsInc Woao! Again very fast response. You are the man really Mason. Last question, How far should I place the Vodoo Lap Plus 2 from pedals?
@@ALBERTOGARCIA-nk9bo depends how much of the total power you're using. This one is better than most linear supplies because it has as steel chassis which is a better shield against EMF. Usually a few inches in each direction is good, you can take a single coil guitar and have it running through your amp and move it around the power supply to see where the magnetic field is and where to avoid putting pedals.
What could be the best way to shield audio patch cables from AC cords if there isn't much space for cable routing? I have some spaces in which I've tried my best to put space between the audio and AC cables; what's a good spacing to maintain in these cases? The rig is fairly quiet overall, but there is still a little bit of hum/buzz. Could placing ferrite cores on either the audio cables or AC cords reduce some of the remaining noise?
When you talk about a buffer at the end, would a gain pedal with little to no drive on act as a buffer? Ie. Mesa Boogie Grid slammer. I have a SGGB by sarno in the front of the board too
Any pedal that's "ON" true bypass or not is a buffer. The quality of it may not be as good as a real high quality buffer. Input impedance of 1M ohms, output impedance of 100 ohms
@@VertexEffectsInc That's my understanding from doing research and talking with other folks with a similar issue. For me it's an Archer iKon in front of a Strymon Mobius. When I select chorusing on the Mobius, it whistles noticeably if the iKon is in the signal chain. Noise goes away when I remove the iKon. I've come to learn that the charge pump in Klon style pedals is the culprit.
@@drebatista I'm using a VDL 4x4, so the hi volt pedals (TimeLine and Mobius) are isolated (or so I understand). As I mentioned, the iKon is the only pedal that creates this effect. If I remove it, all noise goes away. ALSO: If I run the TimeLine and Mobius in my Effect Loop on the amp, the noise goes away (my board is set up to accommodate this option). It's only when I run the iKon in line before the Strymon pedals that I get the whistle.
@@duaneharlick I don't think we know enough to ID a charge pump as the problem, I would suggest it is something else going on in your chain or even perhaps a problem with the Archer in the worst case, but nothing to do with it having a charge pump. Plenty of pedals have them without issue.
@@VertexEffectsInc Here's from one thread I researched: "This is right - it's called heterodyning. It's kind of an aggravating thing with a Klon that uses a charge pump like the original, and doesn't take any effort to filter out the noise (like the original). So, in keeping with the 'part for part' rebuild of a Klon, you get the oscillated signal that doesn't play nice with some other pedals." And also: " I know at least with Strymon stuff (notably the Timeline and Mobius) this is a really common problem." Here's a link to the conversation: www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/oscillation-weirdness-with-tumnus-d-and-choralflanger.1914486/
If you had a linear type of power supply which emits EMF like you said and we had to put it under our board. Is there any shielding or isolation we could do?
Hello. The Problem i have with my rig. Amp: Victory v40 clean amp I go from my guitar in my cry baby wah. From tbere into my boss od200 and then inthe amp input. In the fx loop i have from in to out: - Nux optima air BBE sonic maximiser Boss CE1 chorus Boss PH3 phaser Voodoo lab tremolo Boss DD8 delay Source audio ventris reverb (Thanks @mason). The Power supply is a palmer PK-T12 The instrument cables are Sommer cables spirit XXL+ nutetik plugs und the Patch cables are mogami 2319+ squareplugs I have i little bit noise and loss headroom. What in my signal chain is the problem? The Power supply? The inexistent buffer? Thanks for helping.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks for your response Mason. I didn’t want my 1 spot pro cs 12 to solely be responsible for reducing noise to my rig. I figure the power condition will help reduce some of the workload on the power supply and get the benefit of clean power to my effects, amps and recording gear.
@@whiskybravo4648 there's only so much the power conditioner can do, especially if it's not regulating the voltage or clamping it in place. There might be some basic filtering but it's not going to overcome a noisy rig that has a pedalboard based issue.
Love them! I have a wet/dry/wet rack in my studio! It's very similar to the video I did last week on "Pro Rig Builders Don't Want You To Know This Secret!" Check that out!
This is helpful thank you! If you don’t solder your own patch cables and buy all your patch cables, could this effect noise? Currently using all EBS flat patch cables
Make a video about amp FX-Loops! I have this Marshall DSL20 and with a Truetone CS12 power supply most of my FX work fine in the loop except ThorpyFX Camoflange which causes some weird modulation noise even when it's turned off, but this happens only in the loop it never does that in front of an amp!
That's not a power supply issue that's a line level issue. Most effects can't take line level, and I bet that's what your Marshall is putting out on the send. It will clip the input of an effect that's only designed to take instrument level. We have a video where we touch on it called "Dumble's Biggest Mistake". I make some recommendations there that might solve your problem.
What USB rechargeable battery would you use for pedal boards for street busking to power all types of guitar pedals voltages and current ratings +9,+18+24vdc and 1amp to 2amp on delay guitar pedals for a pedal board for playing outdoors street busking? I do think you need to make a video about time based effects cause ticking and clicking noises because other pedals that use internal charge pumps and internal voltage inverters are causing issues with time based effects.
@@VertexEffectsInc I see people in the comments saying their time based effects are causing ticking and clicking noises from other pedals that have internal voltage inverters and voltage Doublers that change the voltage from +9 to +18 or invert the +9 to -9 or have a charge pump circuit. I'm not sure why a charge pump circuit would backfeed causing the time based effects to cause ticking and clicking noises.
In every video I have watched for vertex, they never mention the Fender engine room power supply. Is there a reason? I think you need to do a video just on the Engine Rooms.
Great video AGAIN! I have 2 Voodoo Labs P/Ss (Pedal Power 3 Plus & Pedal Power X8) underneath my Pedal Train Nova 24 pedal board, can I utilize Faraday fabric to help isolate my P/Ss from my pedals and patch/signal cables? Or, should I just upgrade to "Switching P/Ss?"
Could you shield an under-mounted linear power supply with copper to avoid noise when pedals are placed above them? Would placing a sheet above the power supply (between it and the pedals) have any merit as a solution? Thanks for a great video!
I think you could wrap it in aluminum foil, so it loops around the power supply, rather than a flat sheet - but a big 1/8" or 1/4" plate of steel between the pedal and power supply would seem to have to lower the electromagnetic field strength.
I have a loop station with a mixer in it, and to avoid plug/unplug the adapter everytime I just put it on the pedalboard with al the rest. The problem is that if a cable is near the adapter it cause grpund noise. Is there a way to isolate the adapter without moving it, like Building a wall of some material all over it?
Great video! Curious what solutions you use with pedals like the Sir Henry that seem to require their own outlet? I use a Zuma on my board and would like to add the Sir Henry, but would also like to keep everything powered such that I’m only turning on power at one point...silly maybe, but you seem to have solved it?
I have a Friedman buffer bay ,and power supply with buffer in and out ,I’m running all my time based effects and a Wampler terraform in a serial effects loop in post and all distortion and eq ,all with built in buffers through the preamp ,I run all gain at half and when I engage the Wampler I’m having terrible oscillation noise and squeals ,long story short I’ve tried everything and nothings changed ,any ideas ?
The Friedman is an input buffer only, no output buffer. This could be that your Wampler and your effects loop aren't complementary, this is common as there are no standards for FX Loops and no standards for pedals and the levels they can take. If could also be something else in your system as well unrelated to the pedals. Have you considered running the Wampler in the front of the amp? What's the amp? Does it have an active/buffered effects loop?
@@VertexEffectsInc I had no idea the buffer bay was buffer in only ,honestly that’s awesome to learn ,the amp is a Genz Benz Black Pearl 30 all the forums I researched said the fx loop is for rack use only so I’m not sure if that’s true ,I’ve put the terraform in the per path and post ,before and after distortion with a buffer pedal on each side ,replaced cables ,so I’m stumped but I really appreciate you answer my comment ,that’s huge !
Hi Rig Doctor! You helped me with my BOSS ES-5 before how to connect it to a BOSS NS-2. Now i wonder how can i connect the BOSS NS-2 to a BOSS ES-8. Is it possible to do it with the 4-cable method.
Same thing just use the ES-8 Input, and Volume Loop Send and Return and then you can use the loop re-ordering to put the Gate around whatever group of effects you want.
My rig has been pretty quiet until I started trying to run it in stereo. I have very minimal noise and then I try to plug into the 2nd output of any of my stereo pedals and the noise increases to a very noticable and distracting level. It happens with my RV-500, MD-500, and Collider. The weird thing is that I put my Boss FV-30L volume pedal after them to try and cut off all the noise and it doesn't do anything at all to the noise, what is up with that? I thought it would cut the noise down to nothing with the volume pedal off. If I plug into the amps separately and directly, there is little to no noise. On one hand I'm happy because I thought my used AC-15 had something wrong with it because the noise started when I added it to go stereo, on the other hand I am stumped as to how I'm going to get rid of this extra noise. I have a Trutone One Spot Pro CS6 in close proximity to all of these pedals underneath the board and a cheapo Donner power supply as well.
This is great. Really helpful, but I'm wondering if anything can be done when pedals get radio interference. Just got a tone bender clone and I can't keep it from tuning in radio stations...
Try it on a battery first to see if you can tame down the noise that way, but some of the old vintage fuzzes are going to have that in certain conditions inherently no matter what you do.
An engineer can design filtering to prevent RF ingress. First finding out where the RF is getting in - input, power supply, enclosure not grounded, bottom of enclosure not grounded (VERY common), etc. I have seen RF coming in through floating potentiometer shafts and coupling to the resistive element internally. Mason is right, try a battery first and see if the problem is power supply related instead of signal lead related.
Thanks for the very helpful video. I am experiencing some noise in my system. I isolated it to my effects loop chain, and was concerned that it was because my pedals were too close to my power supply, but since i have a PSU power supply (CS12) im now thinking its my patch cables connecting my MD-500, Timeline, and Specular Tempus, or my cable leads from my send to return. If i leave my rig connected, but only unplug my effects loop all the noise goes away and its silent, hence why im assuming its only in the effects loop chain.
Are you using a patch bay or connecting to the wet effects directly? How close are your send and return cables to each other? Can you change the noise by moving them closer or further apart?
@@VertexEffectsInc i dont have a patchbay or interface, im just running my send and return directly to the pedals. I still need to invest in a good buffer too. Right now im using my Peterson Strobostomp HD on its always on buffered output mode as a input buffer at the start of my chain before the front end of the amp. But yea i will definitely check those send and return cables and try moving them apart and see if my noise gets any better. To be honest those cables arent laid out neatly, but not quite a "rats nest" behind the amp to the pedal board. I did find out that having a usb cable plugged into the Boss MD-500 was giving me most of my noise problems. I unplugged that usb cable and its much quieter, but still some noise.
They can add noise, very common. You can diagnose how much is coming from your power supply by simply trying your comp on battery by itself off the pedalboard and compare to how it sounds on the board with your supply to isolate if it's the pedal or some external factors.
A compressor dampens spikes in the input signal (voltage) and boosts lower level signals (sustain). If your noise floor is above the lower voltage level getting boosted, you get more noise. That’s not to say the compressor can’t introduce noise itself - my first compressor is so noisy I’ve never been able to use it and for a long time I thought all compressors did the same. They don’t.
Hey Mason, Was wondering if you could help me understand my options for using a buffer with my pedalboard. I’m building a switcher and want to make a simple buffer like you have diagrams for . Just guitar in->send->Recieve->amp but I don’t understand how I can get around the whole “fuzz don’t like buffer thing” I have a fuzz factory and it definitely doesn’t like a buffer first. Idk how to go about this setup. Any help would be great thanks man!
@@VertexEffectsInc thanks for the reply. To be clear- I ordered one of the Buffer pcb you recommended- I was thinking I could install it into my looper switcher somehow. Would that make sense at all? I’m having trouble figuring out the best way to do this. I guess I have to build an actual buffer using a separate Hammond box? I was hoping to put all 13 of my pedals in its own loop and also a tuner switch and master bypass. Where could I install the buffer in the switcher so that it is always engaged after the fuzz pedal?
@@dylanlee4776 it would work if you put it right after the input that fed all the outputs all the time and wasn't on a footswitch, but you'd have to put your fuzz before the loop switcher. You also would want an output buffer like I show in all the diagrams dead last. I think it's easier to do it the way I suggested.
Thanks again Is there not a way to put the buffer somewhere inside the switcher? To keep from having to do all of the secondary enclosure and such? I haven’t drawn up my plan yet but I was going to try to find a way to put it in the path of my main signal line (yet after the fuzz) but if I understand you correctly I should run like normal into the switcher (no buffers) then from there create a send AFTER my fuzz loop, to my custom made buffer and back into the switcher to continue down the line I plan on having a strymon pedal at the end which should play the role of buffer pretty well I would think considering I’ll probably always have it on in some capacity.
@@dylanlee4776 There is but it will be more complicated and probably an easier I/O location to have some sort of interface anyway. You'll have to make sure it's not bypassed by your loops and is after your loop one and before your loop 2 always in circuit...depending on how it's wired it could be a bit of a complicated DIY project.
I have a GigRig generator powering my main pedalboard and because it's modular I have a few extra ports on my isolators that have DC cables plugged into as like extra in case I wanna try a pedal that's not on my board. My question is: can having loose DC cables that aren't plugged into a pedal cause noise in a rig? My rig is pretty quiet but I live in a really old house with outdated electrical so every once in a while my rig is just noisy and I don't know what's causing it.
No, but they could short to something so you could put some heat shrink over them and just hit it with a heat gun so you don't risk any possibility of that happening.
So if i have a signal splitter that runs to two amps and both amps have effects loops run with different pedals, would i need 3 buffers? one for the signal chain running to the splitter and then one buffer per effects loop? Thats a lot of buffers
@@VertexEffectsInc Why didnt I think of that! Youre brilliant! Wait would it work though? im running a DD3 with long delay through one head FX loop and then another DD3 with short delay and an RV5 with spring reverb through another head fx loop. two heads and different effects to give kind of a natural stereo split sound on stage. Could i do stereo out with my wet effects?
Is there a way you can shield part of a AC power cable where it crosses your audio cables to try reduce noise or possible interference? Like maybe putting copper tape on it?
No, not in a way that would justify the space or the modification to the cable, just make sure it crosses perpendicular or stays away from the other cables.
Vertex can you make a video about the Boss NS-2 4 cable methods? because I have seen an Advanced 4 cable method by using the "return jack port" as the FX send and the Boss NS-2 "output jack port" as the FX return and using the "send jack pot" as the Boss NS-2 Audio output. This is another way of using a 4 cable method to cut down on noise by using a high gain distortion in front of the Boss NS-2 and using a 10 band EQ pedal in the BOSS NS-2 loop. This is how death metal bands are using the Boss NS-2.
Wayne, typically if you want to use an NS-2 to control the pre-amp of your amplifier, you treat it like a pedal, the amp input is like the pedal input and the FX Send is like the pedal output. So 4 cable method with an NS-2 used to suppress preamp noise would be like: Last pedal before the preamp into NS-2 input (or you could put other gain pedals in here too that add noise) NS-2 Send to Amplifier Preamp Input Amplifier FX Send to NS-2 Return. NS-2 Output to first pedal in the effects loop (typically delay or reverb)
What about high-frequency noise from the switching power supply? wouldnt it be better to run a linear power supply at lower load? If you have alot of analogue gear I wouldt let a switching powersupply near the board. For digital pedals it wouldnt really matter.
There are switch mode power supplies that are made for audio and those that are not. If you're purchasing a high quality switch mode power supply like those we recommend in the description, you won't have this issue. Both being equally well built the switch mode is preferable. Some early switch mode supplies tainted these supplies a bit in our field as many manufacturers weren't properly vetting their SMPS.
I run 2 boards, all mod/time effects on one in the effects loop and a OD/fuzz/Disto/comp board (14 and 11 pedals) I'm looking into the truetone buffer, but i'm wondering where to put it. Do i just buffer the one going straight into the amps front?
I told myself I’d never buy any guitar gear that I had to program - now I’ve got an Hx Stomp! What have I been doing? Programming, but it seems easier than 4 rack units.
You can always ask the manufacturer. A good "tell" is that the power supply can accept any input voltage from the wall without needed a switch to do it. That almost always means it's switch mode and not linear.
I have a question regarding fuzzes and buffers. Why would a fuzz pedal not like a buffer? And if I am using fuzz pedals in my pre amp chain, should I put a buffer at the end? (the end of my chain is the digitech jamman). Great info! Thanks for the videos!
I’m using a Laney L5 T - 112 amp I plug my telecaster into my wha wha into my boss chromatic tuner the output of the tuner goes to my G string “guitar in” the G string “dec in”goes to my send in the loop the guitar out of the G string goes to my tone corset compressor the output of the compressor goes to my boss driver input the output of the boss driver goes to the input of my amplifier the “dec out “on the G string goes to my BBE tremor optical tremolo pedal the output of the tremelo pedal goes to the input of my memory toy delay, the output of the memory toy goes to the return of my loop I have had my amp professionally cleaned tubes checked and I still get a massive amount of noise coming from my compressor and or blues driver when they are “ on “and I do not understand why ? With the compressor pedal and my blues driver at 11 o’clock the G string is it approximately 10:30 o’clock which removes all noises until I press or turn on my blue driver and or compressor . I use my compressor constantly my petals are connected to a nomad Outlaw effects model number M128 ( does not require ac to power board . What am I doing wrong ? I even removed the whawha and plugged guitar first into boss TU-2 tuner which I’m told has a buffer in the TU-2 pedal .
Hi there. Thanks for sharing. I want to ask something seeing that you are the doctor you may explain it better for me to understand. I'm still using a daisy chain, and yes I get some zooming & sizzling noise the moment I plug in or engaged my pedals. I also can hear an annoying popping sound. I need to buy a isolated power supply like most people are telling me. Can you recommend me which of the three different power supplies you mentioned is better for me?. I planned to put it under the pedal itself and maybe add another pedal underneath like a compressor to stay on. I heard ( maybe I have to watch the video again) that it depends which model of power supply you use, you can get rid of that noise. Thanks in advance
Depends on the number of pedal you have, but the Truetone CS6, CS7, or CS12 are great and good value. Also Fender's new Engine Room supplies are also very good and these are all switch mode supplies (Truetone and Fender).
What do you recommend when running power leads and guitar leads back to your amp? Can you run them side by side or should you run them away from each other ?
Curious about buffers. Ive never used a stand alone unit, but in my experience with loop switchers and the like any time it had a buffer switch or buffer in it always introduced noise. usually in the form of a high pitched buzz.
A buffer is not not a buffer is not a buffer, just because you had one, doesn't mean it's any good - most are not. Just like if your only experience with Sushi was from a gas station and someone offered to take you to Nobu in LA and you'd respond "I don't like Sushi." A bad buffer will add noise, it will also add artifacts to the tone that can be displeasing. Don't let a bad buffer ruin your experience of how much a great one can help. See our recommended buffer list in the description.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thank you. What a great analogy with sushi and I figured it was this. It is amazing to me how many bad buffers then I've come across even in top musician's rigs.
@@kevindevogel513 it might give you a litmus test of the baseline level of guys making guitar pedals. I don't consider myself to be any expert either, there are certainly more experience and knowledge people out there than I am, but if you don't understand the basics of a buffer it's almost like not knowing phonics and being a literacy specialist. Not a great combo. I think that many of these buffer products are "fillers" in product lines that want to have one of everything when I see it show up in the boutique arena in particular. I've tested almost all the commercial stuff, and about 1 in 20 buffers are any good, and on most of the good ones you need more than one to make them work in a rig properly. Another issue is that most pedal makers don't understand systems of effects and don't build rigs professionally so have little experience with making things work together - they typically design pedals in isolation so they're rarely designed in a fashion that they'd be used practically in reality on a pedalboard. I always found this to be helpful given my background was in system design for racks and pedalboards before every doing individual pedals. I got to learn a lot of the common "gotcha's" having built hundreds of rigs over a decade.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks so much for your insights. I think you're right about the "filler". Going to experiment with some of the options you mentioned.
I enjoy your clear articulate approach to tutorialing. Question..whats that song in the intro background from? There is an artist by the name of Oddisee that made a rendition very similar. Im just curious if its a cover of an original or something. Ive been trying to find this song for some time now. Any leads would be amazing!!
Mason, are there any rules about daisy chaining certain pedals? Suppose I don't have outlets to spare on my Zuma, which pedals can I power off of one outlet with a daisy chain?
Capt. Obvious sez pay attention to current draw when putting multiple pedals on one daisy chain. Also it seems like some pedals just don’t play well with others and do better on a dedicated supply.
Best way to a quiet pedal board is to use battery power. Mission Electronics makes a few power supplies that can supply isolated power from a single battery to several pedals.
Hey Mason thanks for sharing your knowledge with all of us! Im looking to upgrade my power supply and have considered the zuma but was wondering your thoughts on the new Pedal Power 3 plus? Did voodoo lab keep that one linear or did they make it switch mode? I cant seem to find the info online. Thanks again for helping out with our rigs!
The Pedal Power 3 is their first real stand alone switch mode supply and is very good, it would be right up there with the Zuma, Cioks, and other high quality switch mode supplies.
Do you think we missed any crucial tips to make your rig quieter?? Let us know in the comments!
I think you got it pretty much covered, as far as the basics.
Beware, and keep watch, because I heard that Fender is designing an engine for pedals 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
Other than that, great video, I'm sure Rhett is proud of the work and demo.
Speak to it regularly and make sure it is happy :D
It would help if you pause the frame or show different angles of the cable organization underneath the board the way you set it up.
I feel the video goes by too fast in terms of just flashing 1 sec clips showing that. That would help us viewers to try and mimic the setup. Even better would be if you could film your set up in time lapse
Thanks for the videos.
How about adding a choke filter on incoming power lines. I have them on a couple lines, they help with emf. Or shielding in general!
keep your amp's volume rolled all the way counterclockwise for maximum rig quietness
In the process of revamping my rig at present as it's long since outgrown it's power and cheap off the shelf patch cables, these videos are a great remedy to 'forum fatigue' where you leave more confused than you arrived. We're definitely entering the golden age of having your effects without sacrificing your clean amp tone, and keeping the whole thing quiet!
Thank you for watching and I'm glad you find it all useful!
Only way I’ve tried to beat “pandemic depression” was rebuilding the pedalboard.
@@NJSonye we're always happy to give you the pro tips you need!
Thank You for sharing and caring! Cant tell you how much the tips you give have improved my rig tone as well as demystify lame things that USED to happen in my setup! Knowledge is king. You should create a book. An old skool book. Pedalboard curriculum :) I'd buy it! ... maybe you have already? if so .. let us know.
You are so welcome!
GREAT VIDEO! this is the best pedal board information channel to have ever existed. thanks dude!
Glad you think so!
Pretty sure you just diagnosed where most of my hum is coming from, talking about the power supplies. I have 3 smaller ones under my board, and I'd almost bet money that's the problem. I'm eyeballing the Engine Room 12 and 8, as I've got quite a few pedals ;)
Thanks for the always high quality and informative videos, sir!
Thanks for watching!
Thanks for this video. While some of us are starting to sell some of our pedals, this video is like a nostalgia. Can’t believe this is recent.
glad you dig it!
The linear power supply issue is probably the biggest culprit, but as in pro AV, we know separating signals is always preferred. Either way, great video!
The transformer is an issue with the linear supplies. Separating AC from signal is always a good idea, with DC won't matter in this case.
@VertexEffectsinc
Hello.
The Problem i have with my rig.
Amp: Victory v40 clean amp
I go from my guitar in my cry baby wah.
From tbere into my boss OD-200 and then in the amp Front input.
In the fx loop i have from in to out:
-
-Nux optima air
-BBE sonic maximiser
-Boss CE1 chorus
-Boss PH3 phaser
-Voodoo lab tremolo
-Boss DD8 delay
-Source audio ventris reverb (Thanks @mason).
The Power supply is a palmer PK-T12
The instrument cables are Sommer cable spirit XXL+ neutrik plugs and the Patch cables are mogami 2319 + squareplug.
I have i little bit noise and loss headroom.
What in my signal chain is the problem?
The Power supply? The inexistent buffer?
À propos buffer:
How should i know if i need one? How should i understand why i need one if some pedals got à integrated buffer ?
Thanks for helping.
Bro you blew my mind with this great info, thank you so much!!
Happy to help!
Recently redid my pedal board and it has a lot of big pedals causing space issues. My TC Electronics compressor loop is making a ton of noise and had never done that before and I couldn’t figure it out. But it’s sitting right on top my Pedal Power 2. So number 1 was my answer. Loving my Truetone that I got. Might sell the Pedal Power and and getting another Truetone. Thanks for the info!
Glad you figured it out!
So crystal clear, straight to the point, it helped me so much!!!😃
Thanks for watching! Hope we earned your sub!
I love how solderless cables got so popular. I've always hated those things. I did make my own linear power supply, however, (with the transformer encased completely inside of a grounded chassis) and it's the quietest thing I've ever used.
They can big effective, but not as efficient as a switch mode supply, or as small.
@@VertexEffectsInc Fully agree about efficiency, but as far as repairability is concerned, switch mode are almost always made with the cheapest smt parts & fixing a dead one is a fools errand. Linear are almost always easily fixed once they fail. (unless the transformer died during failure.).
Sorry, I'm not trying to fight. I'm just an opinionated jerk. Please continue on! You're content is great!
@@nicksregor4208 cheap and surface mount aren't the same thing. Typically surface mount is lower tolerance than a through hole part and is often also less money, cheaper in that it costs less for the same thing, not that it's inferior in quality. It's not as easy to fix as a surface mount part, but that would be true of any device power supply or otherwise when comparing surface mount to through hole. For any guitar player, this conversation on the repairability is fewer than the 1% that would actually attempt a power supply repair, so I think it might be too nuanced for this avenue.
@@nicksregor4208 Thanks for watching!
Simply the best! Thanks Mason!
Glad you liked it!
Hi Mason , i really love this kind of video, thanks and greetings from Italy
Glad you enjoyed it!
Buying a switch mode power supply is the best thing I ever did for my rig.
Heck yea!
SMPSU s are massive EMF / RF sources also so are also a concern... They are good because of how they work in delivering power by using PWM (pulse width modulation) ... It is this 'clocking' that causes the EMF so needs to be within a faraday cage if possible ... Shield from the cables. Very good idea to separate power from signal and perhaps even ferrite beads might be needed in some places if separation not possible... Good cables and buffers good advice
Love your re-caps of tips!
Glad you like them!
For boards with multiple midi lines running, what are some good practices for avoiding midi ground loops?
Is there anyway to insulate the linear power supply? Putting some material around it to isolate the emf?...Don’t know if that even makes sense. Might be a stupid question. I run a mxr and pedal power 2 below my pedals. The mxr always seemed to cause noise in certain situations. Also any tips on combining two power supplies? Can that make a difference? Thanks for all your tips.
It's not easy to do it well. Sometime you can use a steel plate or mumetal to help shield a linear power supply from the EMF getting into the pedals, however there is a certain process to fabricating mumetal and bending it properly and treating it so it is most effective. Conversely, with steel, the more you use the better it shields, however, that can add a lot of weight depending on how big the magnetic field is. The more current you're drawing against the total available of the power supply, the more intensified the magnetic field will be.
@@VertexEffectsInc Great thanks for the advice!
@@markporo sure thing!
What the best/high quality switchmode power outputs out there? Thank you the video info is the best!!!
Truetone CS6, CS7, and CS12
Where can I get a power strip like the one installed on the board?
there are linear power supplies that have an external transformer right? that could solve the issue of having the PSU near the pedals.
For pedals? Not that I know of...like what?
@@VertexEffectsInc hi! for instance the MXR M238 has an external AC-DC brick. As opposed to the 1Spot CS6, which connects directly to the wall via IEC. Not sure if PS with a separate "power brick" help with the EMF issues. I think it's all DC after the brick. But I am not sure. (BTW love your channel!)
@Vertex Effects this may be a stupid question, but would adding some sort of EMF shielding, for those of us that already invested in linear power supplies, potentially mitigate part of that issue? I.e. adding some adhesive shielding, like Mylar, to top of the linear power supply's case, before mounting it?
I've not done this myself, but I'd try wrapping it in aluminum foil so it loops around the power supply. I don't think mylar is conductive.
I picked up a few ideas, thanks for doing this!
Happy to help!
I agree with 90% of what is said in this video but, I recently purchased a truetone cs 12 to replace my voodoo labs PP2 just to try out the comparison with linear and switchmode power supplies. My findings were that the linear power supply produced less noise and made my buffer and effects sound better and have a more solid tone. Guess I'm sticking with my Pedal Power 2. My 2 cents.
If both supplies are producing the same voltage and current per output, there should be no difference in sound. I don't know how you did the implementation of the two power supplies so it can be hard to fully qualify this statement. As someone that's used both hundreds of times, I can say that a linear power supply can be much more problematic in the context of a pedalboard especially when you're stretching the current limitations of the supply.
@@VertexEffectsInc I would have really liked for the CS12 to be better but I ultimately trust my ears. Many times I have run into the situation where different brand components like guitar cables, speaker cables, power tubes, preamp tubes, jacks and audio pots of the same value etc...are in theory, electronically identical. But, when you try several different brands back to back, you always levitate towards the one you feel sounds best and has better build quality. The differences are very subtle but everything in your chain adds up to shape your tone and I've experienced that power supplies are no exception.
@@deepend69 there are instances where there can be difference but depends on how you test them, most are not testing blind so they are going off of recency bias often and not actually comparing what they think they are. Most pedals have such giant power supply caps that little differences in current or voltage is pretty well quashed and this can be seen in sensitive power sources like high impedance carbon batteries.
Great stuff.! What about some shielding between a linear ps and pedals above..?
Great video. Thank you!!
Glad it helped!
Where do I find those stick wire anchors . Your videos are always so good .
Thanks .
Another awesome video Mason 🤘
Thanks again!
Nailed once again uncle mason!!!!! If I’m using the same output from my power supply to power two pedals could that make a noise or how do I know which pedals can share from the same output thanks
He covers this topic in other videos, but to summarize, analog drives and compressors (and on occasion, analog octaves) are best at sharing power, because of their circuitry and negative polarity, and they filter really well, no clocks or DSPs to interfere with signal.
Pilar, I recommend focusing on combining analog only pedals in the overdrive, boost, distortion, and wah category so long as they are under the total current of your power output on your power supply and the same voltage.
The problem with my voodoo lab Mondo is, none of the power cables are long enough to separate it from all the audio cables.
So that basically means I would have to buy all new power cables which is BS. That is probably the problem with my noise in my pedalboard. It’s kind a upsetting because I paid a lot for it.
That doesn't matter too much...if it's all DC it won't hurt. It could also be that the Mondo is a linear supply. If you have a Pedaltrain or system with the Power Supply under the pedals, you'll have a problem right there.
Switch mode power supplies still have smaller transformer and also emits emf but it’s usually at very high frequencies beyond 20khz, so we don’t hear it.
The HX Effects in 4 cable method sucks the tone from all my amps. Had to return it. I'm still looking for something like it that doesn't ruin your tone.
AxeFX? Neural?
@@VertexEffectsInc The line 6 HX Effects. It's on the board in this video. It sucked the highs, drive and dynamics from my amp.
Just put the a Truetone CS6 and a Voodoo Labs X4 on the new HX Stomp board. First thing I noticed is just how quiet my board is. Yes, my (future fuzzes) are first before the Buffer Plus.
Amazing! That's great! Glad you're getting it quiet!!!
Do you make or buy the very neat label strip for the Zuma outlets? Nice touch. Better than my scrawl on electrical tape!
I use a Brother P Touch Label Maker and Label Tape, I think they're linked in the description
i paired a big fat AC power cable going from a phoenix toroidal power supply with a cable that goes from my buffer out to the amp, there is no
difference on noise vs using them separated, the toroidaL power supply EMF only creates noise in my case when the guitar is very close to the pedal board, otherwise i tried it with a CIOCKS and there is no noticeable difference, however i prefer CIOCKS due its lightweight and small size, plus its versatility
Cool..if it works go with it. Higher gain rigs will tend to exaggerate any issue, if it's a clean amp you can get away with way more.
My god, what an epic rig!
Yes indeed!
VERTEX, try to make a Toroidal HUM Filters video lesson for guitar ampifiers and pedal boards. They are various companies that make toroidal HUM filters and Morley just came out with a Torodial HUM filter.
Great video, I like these shorter, more concise videos a lot more than the longer ones.
Have you ever had problems with clicking noises in any of your boards with time-based pedals? I'm currently having this problem for the second time now and it's driving me crazy. Different pedals, different power supplies, but both pedals are a bit more on the affordable site.
What do you mean by "clicking noises"?
VERTEX, I'm not sure if this is true or not but others have been saying when running guitar pedals at higher voltage like +18vdc or +24vdc the headroom is higher but also the quieter and noise floor is reduced. Have you tried various overdrive, distortion, dirty booster pedals on a pedalboard used with digital pedals that use VSP, DSP, VGA, chips and compared them using the same guitar pedals on the pedabboard supply them with +9vdc then comparing the noise floor using +18vdc and then comparing them using +24vdc to get the noise floor quieter. This is a way of doing noise reduction by raising the supply voltage which lowers the noise floor. Have you tried this test?
I learned some things today . Thank u .
I'm so glad!
Hello. Really helpful video. I watched til the end. Please would like to know the MXR DC brick family are Switch mode or Linear? also are they real isolated?
I’m pretty sure it’s a linear supply, No isolation whatsoever
@@VertexEffectsInc Woao! Again very fast response. You are the man really Mason. Last question, How far should I place the Vodoo Lap Plus 2 from pedals?
@@ALBERTOGARCIA-nk9bo depends how much of the total power you're using. This one is better than most linear supplies because it has as steel chassis which is a better shield against EMF. Usually a few inches in each direction is good, you can take a single coil guitar and have it running through your amp and move it around the power supply to see where the magnetic field is and where to avoid putting pedals.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks You so much for the explanation. I'll try to spot the magnética field as You revealed.
@@ALBERTOGARCIA-nk9bo sound good!
That's a nice clean board. I wish I could afford one.
What could be the best way to shield audio patch cables from AC cords if there isn't much space for cable routing? I have some spaces in which I've tried my best to put space between the audio and AC cables; what's a good spacing to maintain in these cases? The rig is fairly quiet overall, but there is still a little bit of hum/buzz. Could placing ferrite cores on either the audio cables or AC cords reduce some of the remaining noise?
When you talk about a buffer at the end, would a gain pedal with little to no drive on act as a buffer? Ie. Mesa Boogie Grid slammer. I have a SGGB by sarno in the front of the board too
Any pedal that's "ON" true bypass or not is a buffer. The quality of it may not be as good as a real high quality buffer. Input impedance of 1M ohms, output impedance of 100 ohms
Mason: have you had to deal with whistling noise from time based effects interacting with the charge pump in Klon style OD's?
I’m just wondering how you’re determining that it’s the charge pump?
@@VertexEffectsInc That's my understanding from doing research and talking with other folks with a similar issue. For me it's an Archer iKon in front of a Strymon Mobius. When I select chorusing on the Mobius, it whistles noticeably if the iKon is in the signal chain. Noise goes away when I remove the iKon. I've come to learn that the charge pump in Klon style pedals is the culprit.
@@drebatista I'm using a VDL 4x4, so the hi volt pedals (TimeLine and Mobius) are isolated (or so I understand). As I mentioned, the iKon is the only pedal that creates this effect. If I remove it, all noise goes away. ALSO: If I run the TimeLine and Mobius in my Effect Loop on the amp, the noise goes away (my board is set up to accommodate this option). It's only when I run the iKon in line before the Strymon pedals that I get the whistle.
@@duaneharlick I don't think we know enough to ID a charge pump as the problem, I would suggest it is something else going on in your chain or even perhaps a problem with the Archer in the worst case, but nothing to do with it having a charge pump. Plenty of pedals have them without issue.
@@VertexEffectsInc Here's from one thread I researched: "This is right - it's called heterodyning. It's kind of an aggravating thing with a Klon that uses a charge pump like the original, and doesn't take any effort to filter out the noise (like the original). So, in keeping with the 'part for part' rebuild of a Klon, you get the oscillated signal that doesn't play nice with some other pedals." And also: " I know at least with Strymon stuff (notably the Timeline and Mobius) this is a really common problem." Here's a link to the conversation: www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/oscillation-weirdness-with-tumnus-d-and-choralflanger.1914486/
If you had a linear type of power supply which emits EMF like you said and we had to put it under our board. Is there any shielding or isolation we could do?
Hello.
The Problem i have with my rig.
Amp: Victory v40 clean amp
I go from my guitar in my cry baby wah.
From tbere into my boss od200 and then inthe amp input.
In the fx loop i have from in to out:
-
Nux optima air
BBE sonic maximiser
Boss CE1 chorus
Boss PH3 phaser
Voodoo lab tremolo
Boss DD8 delay
Source audio ventris reverb (Thanks @mason).
The Power supply is a palmer PK-T12
The instrument cables are Sommer cables spirit XXL+ nutetik plugs und the Patch cables are mogami 2319+ squareplugs
I have i little bit noise and loss headroom.
What in my signal chain is the problem?
The Power supply? The inexistent buffer?
Thanks for helping.
What’re your thoughts on power conditioners? I just ordered one to protect my gear and to help reduce noise.
They can be very helpful, but not a cure all for noisy power coming from your wall.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks for your response Mason. I didn’t want my 1 spot pro cs 12 to solely be responsible for reducing noise to my rig. I figure the power condition will help reduce some of the workload on the power supply and get the benefit of clean power to my effects, amps and recording gear.
@@whiskybravo4648 there's only so much the power conditioner can do, especially if it's not regulating the voltage or clamping it in place. There might be some basic filtering but it's not going to overcome a noisy rig that has a pedalboard based issue.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks man and thanks for posting videos like this.
@@whiskybravo4648 our pleasure!
Mason, how does a wireless trasmitter affect the impedance of the input signal? Is an imput buffer still necessary? Great video as always :)
coverts it to low impedance - if you have one, you don't need an input buffer, just an output buffer.
@@VertexEffectsInc thank you, that's a great help 😁
what about with the mxr iso brick ??
Do you do any rackmount projects? That would be a great topic (either general cable management or more specifically pedal shelves)
Love them! I have a wet/dry/wet rack in my studio! It's very similar to the video I did last week on "Pro Rig Builders Don't Want You To Know This Secret!" Check that out!
This is helpful thank you! If you don’t solder your own patch cables and buy all your patch cables, could this effect noise? Currently using all EBS flat patch cables
The EBS should be fine noise wise.
Make a video about amp FX-Loops!
I have this Marshall DSL20 and with a Truetone CS12 power supply most of my FX work fine in the loop except ThorpyFX Camoflange which causes some weird modulation noise even when it's turned off, but this happens only in the loop it never does that in front of an amp!
That's not a power supply issue that's a line level issue. Most effects can't take line level, and I bet that's what your Marshall is putting out on the send. It will clip the input of an effect that's only designed to take instrument level. We have a video where we touch on it called "Dumble's Biggest Mistake". I make some recommendations there that might solve your problem.
What USB rechargeable battery would you use for pedal boards for street busking to power all types of guitar pedals voltages and current ratings +9,+18+24vdc and 1amp to 2amp on delay guitar pedals for a pedal board for playing outdoors street busking? I do think you need to make a video about time based effects cause ticking and clicking noises because other pedals that use internal charge pumps and internal voltage inverters are causing issues with time based effects.
I don't know of any that are "GREAT" yet...maybe in time.
@@VertexEffectsInc I see people in the comments saying their time based effects are causing ticking and clicking noises from other pedals that have internal voltage inverters and voltage Doublers that change the voltage from +9 to +18 or invert the +9 to -9 or have a charge pump circuit. I'm not sure why a charge pump circuit would backfeed causing the time based effects to cause ticking and clicking noises.
@@waynegram8907 I've not experienced this it could be related to the user and how they've building their rig.
In every video I have watched for vertex, they never mention the Fender engine room power supply. Is there a reason? I think you need to do a video just on the Engine Rooms.
Would you recommend also having a buffer in the send and return of the fx loop if you're using the 4 cable method?
Great video AGAIN! I have 2 Voodoo Labs P/Ss (Pedal Power 3 Plus & Pedal Power X8) underneath my Pedal Train Nova 24 pedal board, can I utilize Faraday fabric to help isolate my P/Ss from my pedals and patch/signal cables? Or, should I just upgrade to "Switching P/Ss?"
Could you shield an under-mounted linear power supply with copper to avoid noise when pedals are placed above them? Would placing a sheet above the power supply (between it and the pedals) have any merit as a solution? Thanks for a great video!
I think you could wrap it in aluminum foil, so it loops around the power supply, rather than a flat sheet - but a big 1/8" or 1/4" plate of steel between the pedal and power supply would seem to have to lower the electromagnetic field strength.
I have a loop station with a mixer in it, and to avoid plug/unplug the adapter everytime I just put it on the pedalboard with al the rest. The problem is that if a cable is near the adapter it cause grpund noise. Is there a way to isolate the adapter without moving it, like Building a wall of some material all over it?
You can buy a mumetal can or a steel can to help with the EMF.
@@VertexEffectsInc thank you souch. I'll try it!
@@LoopConnection good luck!
Great video! Curious what solutions you use with pedals like the Sir Henry that seem to require their own outlet? I use a Zuma on my board and would like to add the Sir Henry, but would also like to keep everything powered such that I’m only turning on power at one point...silly maybe, but you seem to have solved it?
I used a power strip in the corner and connect the Zuma and the Sir Henry to it.
I have a Friedman buffer bay ,and power supply with buffer in and out ,I’m running all my time based effects and a Wampler terraform in a serial effects loop in post and all distortion and eq ,all with built in buffers through the preamp ,I run all gain at half and when I engage the Wampler I’m having terrible oscillation noise and squeals ,long story short I’ve tried everything and nothings changed ,any ideas ?
The Friedman is an input buffer only, no output buffer. This could be that your Wampler and your effects loop aren't complementary, this is common as there are no standards for FX Loops and no standards for pedals and the levels they can take. If could also be something else in your system as well unrelated to the pedals. Have you considered running the Wampler in the front of the amp? What's the amp? Does it have an active/buffered effects loop?
@@VertexEffectsInc I had no idea the buffer bay was buffer in only ,honestly that’s awesome to learn ,the amp is a Genz Benz Black Pearl 30 all the forums I researched said the fx loop is for rack use only so I’m not sure if that’s true ,I’ve put the terraform in the per path and post ,before and after distortion with a buffer pedal on each side ,replaced cables ,so I’m stumped but I really appreciate you answer my comment ,that’s huge !
Hi Rig Doctor! You helped me with my BOSS ES-5 before how to connect it to a BOSS NS-2. Now i wonder how can i connect the BOSS NS-2 to a BOSS ES-8. Is it possible to do it with the 4-cable method.
Same thing just use the ES-8 Input, and Volume Loop Send and Return and then you can use the loop re-ordering to put the Gate around whatever group of effects you want.
Hi' Uncle Mason, I'm using a Zuma 9 output power supply under the pedaltrain Jr. is there an effect of the EMF?
It's switch mode, should be fine
My rig has been pretty quiet until I started trying to run it in stereo. I have very minimal noise and then I try to plug into the 2nd output of any of my stereo pedals and the noise increases to a very noticable and distracting level. It happens with my RV-500, MD-500, and Collider. The weird thing is that I put my Boss FV-30L volume pedal after them to try and cut off all the noise and it doesn't do anything at all to the noise, what is up with that? I thought it would cut the noise down to nothing with the volume pedal off. If I plug into the amps separately and directly, there is little to no noise. On one hand I'm happy because I thought my used AC-15 had something wrong with it because the noise started when I added it to go stereo, on the other hand I am stumped as to how I'm going to get rid of this extra noise. I have a Trutone One Spot Pro CS6 in close proximity to all of these pedals underneath the board and a cheapo Donner power supply as well.
Very informative sir... Thanks 😊😊😊
Welcome 😊
This is great. Really helpful, but I'm wondering if anything can be done when pedals get radio interference. Just got a tone bender clone and I can't keep it from tuning in radio stations...
Try it on a battery first to see if you can tame down the noise that way, but some of the old vintage fuzzes are going to have that in certain conditions inherently no matter what you do.
An engineer can design filtering to prevent RF ingress. First finding out where the RF is getting in - input, power supply, enclosure not grounded, bottom of enclosure not grounded (VERY common), etc. I have seen RF coming in through floating potentiometer shafts and coupling to the resistive element internally. Mason is right, try a battery first and see if the problem is power supply related instead of signal lead related.
Thanks for the very helpful video. I am experiencing some noise in my system. I isolated it to my effects loop chain, and was concerned that it was because my pedals were too close to my power supply, but since i have a PSU power supply (CS12) im now thinking its my patch cables connecting my MD-500, Timeline, and Specular Tempus, or my cable leads from my send to return. If i leave my rig connected, but only unplug my effects loop all the noise goes away and its silent, hence why im assuming its only in the effects loop chain.
Are you using a patch bay or connecting to the wet effects directly? How close are your send and return cables to each other? Can you change the noise by moving them closer or further apart?
@@VertexEffectsInc i dont have a patchbay or interface, im just running my send and return directly to the pedals. I still need to invest in a good buffer too. Right now im using my Peterson Strobostomp HD on its always on buffered output mode as a input buffer at the start of my chain before the front end of the amp. But yea i will definitely check those send and return cables and try moving them apart and see if my noise gets any better. To be honest those cables arent laid out neatly, but not quite a "rats nest" behind the amp to the pedal board. I did find out that having a usb cable plugged into the Boss MD-500 was giving me most of my noise problems. I unplugged that usb cable and its much quieter, but still some noise.
@@VertexEffectsInc also just wanted to say thank u so much for taking the time to reply back
@@orryfishburne5326 sure thing!
do compressor pedals cause noise? if there is noise when one is on, can it be another problem?
They can add noise, very common. You can diagnose how much is coming from your power supply by simply trying your comp on battery by itself off the pedalboard and compare to how it sounds on the board with your supply to isolate if it's the pedal or some external factors.
A compressor dampens spikes in the input signal (voltage) and boosts lower level signals (sustain). If your noise floor is above the lower voltage level getting boosted, you get more noise. That’s not to say the compressor can’t introduce noise itself - my first compressor is so noisy I’ve never been able to use it and for a long time I thought all compressors did the same. They don’t.
Hey Mason,
Was wondering if you could help me understand my options for using a buffer with my pedalboard.
I’m building a switcher and want to make a simple buffer like you have diagrams for . Just guitar in->send->Recieve->amp but I don’t understand how I can get around the whole “fuzz don’t like buffer thing” I have a fuzz factory and it definitely doesn’t like a buffer first. Idk how to go about this setup. Any help would be great thanks man!
Guitar, Send (no buffer), Fuzz, Receive (no buffer), Send (input buffer), rest of pedals after fuzz, Receive, Output (buffer), Amp.
@@VertexEffectsInc thanks for the reply. To be clear- I ordered one of the Buffer pcb you recommended- I was thinking I could install it into my looper switcher somehow. Would that make sense at all? I’m having trouble figuring out the best way to do this. I guess I have to build an actual buffer using a separate Hammond box? I was hoping to put all 13 of my pedals in its own loop and also a tuner switch and master bypass. Where could I install the buffer in the switcher so that it is always engaged after the fuzz pedal?
@@dylanlee4776 it would work if you put it right after the input that fed all the outputs all the time and wasn't on a footswitch, but you'd have to put your fuzz before the loop switcher. You also would want an output buffer like I show in all the diagrams dead last. I think it's easier to do it the way I suggested.
Thanks again
Is there not a way to put the buffer somewhere inside the switcher? To keep from having to do all of the secondary enclosure and such?
I haven’t drawn up my plan yet but I was going to try to find a way to put it in the path of my main signal line (yet after the fuzz) but if I understand you correctly I should run like normal into the switcher (no buffers) then from there create a send AFTER my fuzz loop, to my custom made buffer and back into the switcher to continue down the line
I plan on having a strymon pedal at the end which should play the role of buffer pretty well I would think considering I’ll probably always have it on in some capacity.
@@dylanlee4776 There is but it will be more complicated and probably an easier I/O location to have some sort of interface anyway. You'll have to make sure it's not bypassed by your loops and is after your loop one and before your loop 2 always in circuit...depending on how it's wired it could be a bit of a complicated DIY project.
I have a GigRig generator powering my main pedalboard and because it's modular I have a few extra ports on my isolators that have DC cables plugged into as like extra in case I wanna try a pedal that's not on my board. My question is: can having loose DC cables that aren't plugged into a pedal cause noise in a rig? My rig is pretty quiet but I live in a really old house with outdated electrical so every once in a while my rig is just noisy and I don't know what's causing it.
No, but they could short to something so you could put some heat shrink over them and just hit it with a heat gun so you don't risk any possibility of that happening.
So if i have a signal splitter that runs to two amps and both amps have effects loops run with different pedals, would i need 3 buffers? one for the signal chain running to the splitter and then one buffer per effects loop? Thats a lot of buffers
Why not just run them in stereo with your wet effects? Ideally buffer input and output, and buffered return for the effects loop.
@@VertexEffectsInc Why didnt I think of that! Youre brilliant! Wait would it work though? im running a DD3 with long delay through one head FX loop and then another DD3 with short delay and an RV5 with spring reverb through another head fx loop. two heads and different effects to give kind of a natural stereo split sound on stage. Could i do stereo out with my wet effects?
Is there a way you can shield part of a AC power cable where it crosses your audio cables to try reduce noise or possible interference? Like maybe putting copper tape on it?
No, not in a way that would justify the space or the modification to the cable, just make sure it crosses perpendicular or stays away from the other cables.
A few years ago I bought an Accel Power Source 8 Isolated Output Pedal Power Supply. How can I determine if it uses “switching” technology?
Does it only work at one voltage or have a rocker or slider switch to change the input voltage for different countries?
@@VertexEffectsInc It manually switches between 115 and 230v.
Vertex can you make a video about the Boss NS-2 4 cable methods? because I have seen an Advanced 4 cable method by using the "return jack port" as the FX send and the Boss NS-2 "output jack port" as the FX return and using the "send jack pot" as the Boss NS-2 Audio output. This is another way of using a 4 cable method to cut down on noise by using a high gain distortion in front of the Boss NS-2 and using a 10 band EQ pedal in the BOSS NS-2 loop. This is how death metal bands are using the Boss NS-2.
Wayne, typically if you want to use an NS-2 to control the pre-amp of your amplifier, you treat it like a pedal, the amp input is like the pedal input and the FX Send is like the pedal output. So 4 cable method with an NS-2 used to suppress preamp noise would be like:
Last pedal before the preamp into NS-2 input (or you could put other gain pedals in here too that add noise)
NS-2 Send to Amplifier Preamp Input
Amplifier FX Send to NS-2 Return.
NS-2 Output to first pedal in the effects loop (typically delay or reverb)
Hi! Can I put my Voodoo Lab 3 Plus close to my amp or it can damage the amp or the power supply because of its magnetic field?
What about high-frequency noise from the switching power supply? wouldnt it be better to run a linear power supply at lower load? If you have alot of analogue gear I wouldt let a switching powersupply near the board. For digital pedals it wouldnt really matter.
There are switch mode power supplies that are made for audio and those that are not. If you're purchasing a high quality switch mode power supply like those we recommend in the description, you won't have this issue. Both being equally well built the switch mode is preferable. Some early switch mode supplies tainted these supplies a bit in our field as many manufacturers weren't properly vetting their SMPS.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thank you for the answer. Really like your channel. Kudos for the DIY videos of buffers and junction boxes.
@@Draumlaus My pleasure!
what about the G-LAB PB-1...is that one a linear or a switch mode power supply....?
Yes it is
Hi Mason, how many slots Strymon Zuma needed for powering HX Effects? Great video and clear explanation, thank you!
Two.
What about these cheaper supplies like Joyo that are a great value for the money?
Some only have a wallwart plug off a DC connection too.
I haven't tried them to compare.
I run 2 boards, all mod/time effects on one in the effects loop and a OD/fuzz/Disto/comp board (14 and 11 pedals) I'm looking into the truetone buffer, but i'm wondering where to put it. Do i just buffer the one going straight into the amps front?
Depends on the fuzz, but generally buffer first and buffer last.
Me watching this without having a pedalboard....
Hahahaha! Hopefully soon!
I told myself I’d never buy any guitar gear that I had to program - now I’ve got an Hx Stomp! What have I been doing? Programming, but it seems easier than 4 rack units.
@@NJSonye Yes indeed! Good unit!
😂
Soon, little padawan, soon
If I use the 4 cable method for front of amp and fx loop, does that mean I need 4 buffers?
Three. Input, Output, FX Return.
hes the best and is a great friend! 😊
Thanks for watching!
How do you get smaller dc cables? As in length, I always hv excess on mine
How do we know what type of power supply would it be? ie the mxr m23... series? Is there any way to see?
Thanks.
You can always ask the manufacturer. A good "tell" is that the power supply can accept any input voltage from the wall without needed a switch to do it. That almost always means it's switch mode and not linear.
I have a question regarding fuzzes and buffers. Why would a fuzz pedal not like a buffer? And if I am using fuzz pedals in my pre amp chain, should I put a buffer at the end? (the end of my chain is the digitech jamman). Great info! Thanks for the videos!
Fuzzes before buffers typically.
I’m using a Laney L5 T - 112 amp I plug my telecaster into my wha wha into my boss chromatic tuner the output of the tuner goes to my G string “guitar in” the G string “dec in”goes to my send in the loop the guitar out of the G string goes to my tone corset compressor the output of the compressor goes to my boss driver input the output of the boss driver goes to the input of my amplifier the “dec out “on the G string goes to my BBE tremor optical tremolo pedal the output of the tremelo pedal goes to the input of my memory toy delay, the output of the memory toy goes to the return of my loop
I have had my amp professionally cleaned tubes checked and I still get a massive amount of noise coming from my compressor and or blues driver when they are “ on “and I do not understand why ?
With the compressor pedal and my blues driver at 11 o’clock the G string is it approximately 10:30 o’clock which removes all noises until I press or turn on my blue driver and or compressor . I use my compressor constantly
my petals are connected to a nomad Outlaw effects model number M128 ( does not require ac to power board .
What am I doing wrong ?
I even removed the whawha and plugged guitar first into boss TU-2 tuner which I’m told has a buffer in the TU-2 pedal .
Michael, I think I responded in another comment of yours with my suggestions. Check it out :)
Hi there. Thanks for sharing. I want to ask something seeing that you are the doctor you may explain it better for me to understand. I'm still using a daisy chain, and yes I get some zooming & sizzling noise the moment I plug in or engaged my pedals. I also can hear an annoying popping sound. I need to buy a isolated power supply like most people are telling me. Can you recommend me which of the three different power supplies you mentioned is better for me?. I planned to put it under the pedal itself and maybe add another pedal underneath like a compressor to stay on.
I heard ( maybe I have to watch the video again) that it depends which model of power supply you use, you can get rid of that noise.
Thanks in advance
Depends on the number of pedal you have, but the Truetone CS6, CS7, or CS12 are great and good value. Also Fender's new Engine Room supplies are also very good and these are all switch mode supplies (Truetone and Fender).
One question, if my power supply is filtered, what should I do to reduce the noise?
Filtered is a broad word that can mean a lot of things. You really want an isolated power supply.
What do you recommend when running power leads and guitar leads back to your amp? Can you run them side by side or should you run them away from each other ?
If it's AC, keep it far away from your signal cables. Not recommended that they're bundled together.
Curious about buffers. Ive never used a stand alone unit, but in my experience with loop switchers and the like any time it had a buffer switch or buffer in it always introduced noise. usually in the form of a high pitched buzz.
Poor buffer and or internal step up power supply design. Very common in guitar world.
A buffer is not not a buffer is not a buffer, just because you had one, doesn't mean it's any good - most are not. Just like if your only experience with Sushi was from a gas station and someone offered to take you to Nobu in LA and you'd respond "I don't like Sushi." A bad buffer will add noise, it will also add artifacts to the tone that can be displeasing. Don't let a bad buffer ruin your experience of how much a great one can help. See our recommended buffer list in the description.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thank you. What a great analogy with sushi and I figured it was this. It is amazing to me how many bad buffers then I've come across even in top musician's rigs.
@@kevindevogel513 it might give you a litmus test of the baseline level of guys making guitar pedals. I don't consider myself to be any expert either, there are certainly more experience and knowledge people out there than I am, but if you don't understand the basics of a buffer it's almost like not knowing phonics and being a literacy specialist. Not a great combo. I think that many of these buffer products are "fillers" in product lines that want to have one of everything when I see it show up in the boutique arena in particular. I've tested almost all the commercial stuff, and about 1 in 20 buffers are any good, and on most of the good ones you need more than one to make them work in a rig properly. Another issue is that most pedal makers don't understand systems of effects and don't build rigs professionally so have little experience with making things work together - they typically design pedals in isolation so they're rarely designed in a fashion that they'd be used practically in reality on a pedalboard. I always found this to be helpful given my background was in system design for racks and pedalboards before every doing individual pedals. I got to learn a lot of the common "gotcha's" having built hundreds of rigs over a decade.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks so much for your insights. I think you're right about the "filler". Going to experiment with some of the options you mentioned.
Can i put my truetone cs12 under my board or should i keep it away from pedals. Im not sure which category this power supply falls under. Thanks!
Those are fine under pedalboards. Technically they're semi-switch mode, the AC side is linear (just one output) the rest is switching.
@@VertexEffectsInc thank u!!
I enjoy your clear articulate approach to tutorialing.
Question..whats that song in the intro background from? There is an artist by the name of Oddisee that made a rendition very similar. Im just curious if its a cover of an original or something. Ive been trying to find this song for some time now. Any leads would be amazing!!
What time stamp for the song? Thanks for watching!
@@VertexEffectsInc 20 seconds
Mason, are there any rules about daisy chaining certain pedals? Suppose I don't have outlets to spare on my Zuma, which pedals can I power off of one outlet with a daisy chain?
Yes, typically stay with analog pedals sharing. Typically low current and more like drives, distortion, boost, wah, things like that are generally OK.
Capt. Obvious sez pay attention to current draw when putting multiple pedals on one daisy chain. Also it seems like some pedals just don’t play well with others and do better on a dedicated supply.
Hi Mason,
I run a board with 2 impedance sensitive fuzzes up front. Should I put a buffer after them and before my other pedals?
Buffer after fuzzes
Yes, buffer after fuzzes and at the end of the pedalboard ideally.
Best way to a quiet pedal board is to use battery power. Mission Electronics makes a few power supplies that can supply isolated power from a single battery to several pedals.
If it's from a single battery it would still be paralleled. I've not found them to be superior to the Strymon and Cioks switch mode supplies.
Hey Mason thanks for sharing your knowledge with all of us! Im looking to upgrade my power supply and have considered the zuma but was wondering your thoughts on the new Pedal Power 3 plus? Did voodoo lab keep that one linear or did they make it switch mode? I cant seem to find the info online. Thanks again for helping out with our rigs!
The Pedal Power 3 is their first real stand alone switch mode supply and is very good, it would be right up there with the Zuma, Cioks, and other high quality switch mode supplies.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thank you so much for the reply! I will likely go with that one then!
@@adrianr2312 nice!
I just bought the ciloks dc7. Would you recommend making custom power cables, considering they have the rca end, or just wrapping up the extra wire?
Sure, you can buy RCA ends easily to make them DIY, just check out my pedalboard video and you'll see that's what I did with my Cioks supply.
Hi, I was wondering if the MXR M239 Mini Iso-Brick is linear? Could not find any info. Thanks!
Switch mode
Thanks man😁
Happy to help