Thanks, Chris! I’m so thrilled to get this message out into the world. Keep crushing it, folks! Win MORE or lose LESS. You have much more power in the pitch than you realize.
Thanks Joel for your perspective. It made for a very insightful conversation. 🙏 It certainly highlights different approaches as well as how different a slights shift to accomplish the same goal can look like. It appears to me Joel, your approach is to establish authority as the professional and flipping the script as the leader of the project. I feel Chris’s approach is one more of trying to find harmony and balance working with the client like a partnership. In this context your approach to make them concede in order to indicate whether you are in it to win it or just in it as a mandate. Chris just refuses to play the same game and the concession he asks for is “this is me if you want to work together this is what I’m offering, if you are looking to rule us we are out. If you want to work together let’s explore that. Joel a question I have about getting specific concessions is; What happens when you are getting a few concessions and then get two or three red flags? Or what if they concede because they don’t care and will use those concessions to award it to their favorite? Example they need a third pitch and accommodate an extension and changed deliverables etc. at the end the green flags were actually smoke because they now say during the decision, we can’t award to these guys because they couldn’t adapt to us, they can’t deliver in time, they were difficult to work with unless we did it there way? I’m sure your approach has served you well and I love hearing your perspective and contribution. Thank you very much Cheers Shawn ❤️
@@shawnee_kanin awesome feedback and great questions. In my experience, a client cannot pretend you are a favorite for long. Their actions always reveal their true position, eventually. Although my energy and vibe appears combative, when actually dealing with clients I am extremely kind, gregarious and charming. Naturally 😊 Over the course of a big pitch, there will be many green flags and red lights. Wisdom has taught me that once you see more than three or four red flags, your odds of winning are getting very low. What should you do? Great question. The methodology simply gives you choices. The answers are different each time depending on the circumstances.
@@thejoelpilger wow thanks for the great response. I did not find you combative with Chris at all. I have also learned in life to trust my instinct and have let go of trying to convince. Instead I try to be open, up front and honest. I may use persuasion but only if it appears that would be in the best interest of the client. I also agree that it is a good idea to flush out or test the waters instead of being scared to loose. This holds true in all relationships. Why would I want to be in a relationship that the other does not want to be in? If they want to be in it also they will move towards you. That can be in the way of a concession or in other ways that indicate you are of genuine interest to them. Thanks again for your perspective on this and may you and your loved ones continue to attract success in all its forms 🙏 Cheers Shawn
@@shawnee_kanin haha, no not combative with Chris, rather I often role play and say things to imaginary clients which sound quite aggressive. Lol. Thanks likewise for sharing your POV, I love your approach... and that is the essence of my Derail the Pitch methodology: why be in a (business) relationships that the (client) does not want to be in? Therefore, push the relationship forward and if the client is not responsive in the affirmative... read the signals... believe them the first time... and admit the relationship isn't happening. Keep learning and growing. Keep on livin' a better story! Joel
@@shawnee_kanin that’s good thinking and healthy boundaries. As for me and Chris, we like to challenge each other. Makes for much more interesting conversations!
How to get the right clients: Know the right people. If you don’t know the right people, it’s going to be a struggle. It takes a long time to build trust.
Tattoo artist work with you on the design. They first sketch it on paper then go through the revision process together. Once you agree to it, they do a stencil of that sketch which transfers directly onto the skin so you can see placement and get a good sense of how’s it going to look. You agree again and they start inking the stencil, much like you would in a coloring book. Every level of artist works this way, but some will draw directly on the skin and forego the stencil, but typically for regular clients who are strong tattoo enthusiast (lots of ink) or tattooers / artist themselves. It’s a show of high respect and honor in most cases. Conversely, for the more novice, the drawing and stencil are imperative to feeling secure in the decision for themselves moreso than the artist. So it’s not uncommon to think on the sketch. My first tattoo was with one of the most well revered tattoo artist in the industry (I’ll avoid name dropping). A friend walked me in to meet him before he agreed. He’s an incredible artist and did a sketch that far exceeded my expectations. It was everything I wanted and then some and I still waited. I sat with that sketch for a very long time before pulling the trigger. I Didn’t change a thing on it, I just need time. He was happy to do it when I finally came back. As beautiful as it is, in hindsight, now that I better understand their creative process, I imagine if I were brave enough to let him freehand it and go for it on the spot, I would’ve gotten something even better. Point is, as a designer myself, when a client and I align from the start and my work speaks for itself, the project has a far better outcome than jumping through hoops or fostering their doubts.
Exactly! Pitching is pretty common in architecture too, but it’s usually a red flag. The good clients won’t expect you to work without some sort of payment. RFPs are exhausting and usually just boil down to price. Most architects don’t even bother building a brand; they just rely on word-of-mouth.
This was incredible! I wish that I had this knowledge to apply 13 years ago when I started in the game industry. I somehow have been instinctively (and through much trial and error) doing some of these detailed pitching techniques in my career but I’m glad to have watched this to be reminded and learn more. Also Chris, thank you for sharing your G4TV experience. That was very enlightening. Thank you Joel and Chris. BIG LOVE!
Great info! I’m not getting $20K opportunities in this season, but I will! Right now, when I pitch clients ($5-10K) realm, I pitch with a short presentation including a mood board, research and some other visuals. I present that on a video call or in person. If they are out of state and/or want to review on their own time, I send a Loom. This has been successful for me in terms of saving time and the overall investment on the potential project. Recently, I did lose a pitch but I believe it was because I broke my process. The potential client was a referral from someone I know personally. I won’t be doing that again. 😅 All of this was super helpful and I’ll be implementing some of these practices moving forward.
So you’re close on how we work as tattoo artists. We do have to show the client something before we start. But we charge for that service in the deposit. So it’s usually not free. One thing we do daily though is convince walk ins that we are the best artist in that room for what they want. And that is the pitch.
The more subjective the deliverable, the bigger the need for pitching. I don’t like the concept of pitching in this sense, but I understand and appreciate the reason it exists as a practice.
Loved this conversation and discussion. Love Chris and Joel challenging each others perspectives, my favorite part was when you guys talked about the "uncomfortable/afraid questions" creatives don't want to ask your prospect/client. So important that to step into that fear. Would love to see you doing more content together! @thefutur @thejoelpilger 🔥
agree with chris, impossible to make it a law case 🙅🏻♂ pitching without payment (will be paid if their customer chooses with a client) is tough (mentally) 🤔
Chris, can you help me out with this? "Pitching is mostly required when your final product is digital. This is because clients often think that building a prototype for a 'digital product' doesn’t cost much. (I used ‘digital products’ as a broad term because distinguishing them would require a whole article.) In contrast, when you want to build a physical structure, you can’t request a sample as it sounds unrealistic". Is this statement true. What’s your take on this, Chris?
I don't like the idea of pitching because of the copy factor where they may like my offering but not the price then include it using a cheaper company.
@ 45 mins in - omg! That's how brazen the dysfunction in this industry is where your idea can just be passed off to someone else and they win the job... Wow.. Maybe it's emotions but that was like instant furious hearing that. WOWOWOOW wtf
I will be honest here!! I don’t get this guy! His reason to participate in a pitch is because there are good reasons?? What are those reasons??? Full disclosure I am not against pitches. But if you say you are a thought leader in that space…i will suggest not having half ideas about what you are saying 🙏🏿🙏🏿 Second his strategies are essentially ask questions, which I think that’s what anyone who has done this a while does. I don’t want to waste my time and money on a client who doesn’t value my time and contribution…so I ask and push and make it uncomfortable. You get your answers when people get a little uncomfortable. At the end of the day, I don’t get understand what exactly is his point! To be honest. Anyway, thanks a lot for sharing 🙏🙏
Symphony orchestra auditions are similar. I've won and lost a few. In each case it's months of intense work. 99% of auditionees get no job, including the winner ;)
Seems like pitching continues to be a thing because clients hold the keys to work, and it's to their benefit to maintain this system. Client asking one company to make a concept that another spent money pitching is incredibly unethical!
I think the wedding industry is a good example of an industry that pitches its customers. You go in for a “food tasting” and whatever else that involves. It’s sort of presentation like. Another one would be time shares…. So maybe creative pitching is as unethical as time shares 😂
@NomadOverNormal Food tasting and cake tasting both are priced you need to pay a price to get the tasting, especially in cake tasting there are tiers on how many flavors you want to taste.
@@NomadOverNormal The two websites I worked on had a system to book a viewing of the venue for free, but then you have to put a deposit to book it. My niche is building websites and setting CRMs for people in wedding industry and the food tasting knowledge is because I set up many systems for online booking/payment. So I'm not sure about everyone's setup.
This guy talking made me remember that lyric from Drizzy Drake: ''I grow tired of these f* grown man liars, Storytellers, they ain't even need a campfire''
37:07 tattoo artist like photographers. Full spectrum. You got the I’ll do it for free guys and the pay me to even have a consult in 3 months for a job I’ll be able to start in 8 months
What are the ownership rights for creatives if your pitch is not accepted. It's not a physical product. Should you always hold back for that sweetheart deal or go all out to win. Because the creative industry is hamstringed to the software designers.
@thefutur that's the thing though say I came up with a sneaker commercial that had a Sergio Leone color correction sampled beats from funkadelics mixed with some Bob Markey and a hexagon camera angle at 1 foot intervals to produce a 360 view in a flat two dimension and they only like the camera angles because the rest is too ethnic and choose to duplicate that in house, how could I possibly stop them. How do you patent camera angles or software effects that anyone can copy it is almost impossible. Pitching is like meeting Harvey Weinstien for drinks and hoping for the best. Keep your running 🏃♀️ shoes on.
That would be a funny commercial. Close up of Kat Williams lacing up his sneakers 👟. A friend walks in the room wide shot from behind the friend then pop up to the question, "You going running." Then slide with a v hold effect to Kat Williams surly face with the response, "No pitching to Harvey Weinstien tonight." Friend responds, "well lace em up real tight." Fade to black white Nike symbol. With the phrase" Nike your only getway." Then comedic laughter.
@thefutur individuals pitch their worst ideas until they get a foot in the door because they don't want their best ideas stolen. No one wants to feel taken advantaged of. And if they see a great reel and an awful pitch, they know something is up.
Half the time, the team booking the gig does not even use the product. Here is a good example, the best-selling basket ball sneakers air Jordan's. So many other brands try to compete with other athletes and never come close. They don't use the product. Two things anyone who buys basket ball sneaks wants to know how does it feel to take off and landing. All the other brands just show you players, the ball, sweat, fans, all kinds of stuff. It's just take off and cushion of the landing.
Rigged system? Well, spoiler alert: it was never about free market and competition in the first place, this system works on monopoly and exploitation only.
Thanks, Chris! I’m so thrilled to get this message out into the world.
Keep crushing it, folks! Win MORE or lose LESS. You have much more power in the pitch than you realize.
Thanks Joel for your perspective. It made for a very insightful conversation. 🙏
It certainly highlights different approaches as well as how different a slights shift to accomplish the same goal can look like.
It appears to me Joel, your approach is to establish authority as the professional and flipping the script as the leader of the project.
I feel Chris’s approach is one more of trying to find harmony and balance working with the client like a partnership.
In this context your approach to make them concede in order to indicate whether you are in it to win it or just in it as a mandate. Chris just refuses to play the same game and the concession he asks for is “this is me if you want to work together this is what I’m offering, if you are looking to rule us we are out. If you want to work together let’s explore that.
Joel a question I have about getting specific concessions is; What happens when you are getting a few concessions and then get two or three red flags?
Or what if they concede because they don’t care and will use those concessions to award it to their favorite?
Example they need a third pitch and accommodate an extension and changed deliverables etc. at the end the green flags were actually smoke because they now say during the decision, we can’t award to these guys because they couldn’t adapt to us, they can’t deliver in time, they were difficult to work with unless we did it there way?
I’m sure your approach has served you well and I love hearing your perspective and contribution.
Thank you very much
Cheers Shawn ❤️
@@shawnee_kanin awesome feedback and great questions.
In my experience, a client cannot pretend you are a favorite for long. Their actions always reveal their true position, eventually.
Although my energy and vibe appears combative, when actually dealing with clients I am extremely kind, gregarious and charming. Naturally 😊
Over the course of a big pitch, there will be many green flags and red lights. Wisdom has taught me that once you see more than three or four red flags, your odds of winning are getting very low. What should you do? Great question. The methodology simply gives you choices. The answers are different each time depending on the circumstances.
@@thejoelpilger wow thanks for the great response.
I did not find you combative with Chris at all. I have also learned in life to trust my instinct and have let go of trying to convince. Instead I try to be open, up front and honest. I may use persuasion but only if it appears that would be in the best interest of the client. I also agree that it is a good idea to flush out or test the waters instead of being scared to loose. This holds true in all relationships. Why would I want to be in a relationship that the other does not want to be in? If they want to be in it also they will move towards you. That can be in the way of a concession or in other ways that indicate you are of genuine interest to them.
Thanks again for your perspective on this and may you and your loved ones continue to attract success in all its forms 🙏
Cheers
Shawn
@@shawnee_kanin haha, no not combative with Chris, rather I often role play and say things to imaginary clients which sound quite aggressive. Lol.
Thanks likewise for sharing your POV, I love your approach... and that is the essence of my Derail the Pitch methodology: why be in a (business) relationships that the (client) does not want to be in? Therefore, push the relationship forward and if the client is not responsive in the affirmative... read the signals... believe them the first time... and admit the relationship isn't happening.
Keep learning and growing. Keep on livin' a better story!
Joel
@@shawnee_kanin that’s good thinking and healthy boundaries. As for me and Chris, we like to challenge each other. Makes for much more interesting conversations!
How to get the right clients: Know the right people. If you don’t know the right people, it’s going to be a struggle. It takes a long time to build trust.
💯
Tattoo artist work with you on the design. They first sketch it on paper then go through the revision process together. Once you agree to it, they do a stencil of that sketch which transfers directly onto the skin so you can see placement and get a good sense of how’s it going to look. You agree again and they start inking the stencil, much like you would in a coloring book.
Every level of artist works this way, but some will draw directly on the skin and forego the stencil, but typically for regular clients who are strong tattoo enthusiast (lots of ink) or tattooers / artist themselves. It’s a show of high respect and honor in most cases.
Conversely, for the more novice, the drawing and stencil are imperative to feeling secure in the decision for themselves moreso than the artist.
So it’s not uncommon to think on the sketch.
My first tattoo was with one of the most well revered tattoo artist in the industry (I’ll avoid name dropping). A friend walked me in to meet him before he agreed.
He’s an incredible artist and did a sketch that far exceeded my expectations. It was everything I wanted and then some and I still waited. I sat with that sketch for a very long time before pulling the trigger.
I Didn’t change a thing on it, I just need time. He was happy to do it when I finally came back.
As beautiful as it is, in hindsight, now that I better understand their creative process, I imagine if I were brave enough to let him freehand it and go for it on the spot, I would’ve gotten something even better.
Point is, as a designer myself, when a client and I align from the start and my work speaks for itself, the project has a far better outcome than jumping through hoops or fostering their doubts.
Listening to this made me realize how deep marketing really goes.. I know so little. Great stuff
1001 ways to hear what you want, and how to stand your ground. That was the real master class I heard 🏆
Stand your ground, yes! Yet always be helpful
Spicy and Nerdy Let’s Go!!
Exactly! Pitching is pretty common in architecture too, but it’s usually a red flag. The good clients won’t expect you to work without some sort of payment. RFPs are exhausting and usually just boil down to price. Most architects don’t even bother building a brand; they just rely on word-of-mouth.
what a wonderful conversation of two experts 'debating', sharing and learning
This was incredible! I wish that I had this knowledge to apply 13 years ago when I started in the game industry. I somehow have been instinctively (and through much trial and error) doing some of these detailed pitching techniques in my career but I’m glad to have watched this to be reminded and learn more.
Also Chris, thank you for sharing your G4TV experience. That was very enlightening.
Thank you Joel and Chris. BIG LOVE!
Great info! I’m not getting $20K opportunities in this season, but I will! Right now, when I pitch clients ($5-10K) realm, I pitch with a short presentation including a mood board, research and some other visuals.
I present that on a video call or in person. If they are out of state and/or want to review on their own time, I send a Loom. This has been successful for me in terms of saving time and the overall investment on the potential project. Recently, I did lose a pitch but I believe it was because I broke my process. The potential client was a referral from someone I know personally. I won’t be doing that again. 😅
All of this was super helpful and I’ll be implementing some of these practices moving forward.
Many of these principles apply to "high ticket" pitching but it's great to understand the concepts now, not later. ;-)
Great conversation guys! Enjoyed the "Arch of the universe is long and it bends towards justice" ... so true! Always Fight the good fight!
Yo I'm half-way through and this episode is FIRE 🔥
So you’re close on how we work as tattoo artists. We do have to show the client something before we start. But we charge for that service in the deposit. So it’s usually not free. One thing we do daily though is convince walk ins that we are the best artist in that room for what they want. And that is the pitch.
That’s not a pitch then. It’s baked into the process and people commit.
A lot of this applies to a lot of industries / market spaces. Great talk, Chris.
Thanks for that feedback @angstrom1058
Thanks for watching!
The more subjective the deliverable, the bigger the need for pitching.
I don’t like the concept of pitching in this sense, but I understand and appreciate the reason it exists as a practice.
Loved it… thanks for sharing
Our pleasure!
You're welcome :-)
Chris slayed this dude 🤣
We have different POVs.
@@thefutur the diplomat 😅
Fkin Dope Chris..❤
Great discussion!
46:20 Haha, I'm glad you put in your disclaimer because I was about to say Hoold on just a minute :D
Which disclaimer?
Let's go! Two great guys this, can't wait to listen Chis! :D
Loved this conversation and discussion. Love Chris and Joel challenging each others perspectives, my favorite part was when you guys talked about the "uncomfortable/afraid questions" creatives don't want to ask your prospect/client. So important that to step into that fear. Would love to see you doing more content together! @thefutur @thejoelpilger 🔥
AWESOMENESS another great video...
Thank you
Great show guys
The term "free market" is doing some heavy lifting here.
Both make very good points.
Selling your process can be a way to bypass the process of pitching
agree with chris, impossible to make it a law case 🙅🏻♂
pitching without payment (will be paid if their customer chooses with a client) is tough (mentally) 🤔
Indeed @OpenBookmarksCo. Once a disagreement goes to court, rarely does either side win.
Chris, can you help me out with this? "Pitching is mostly required when your final product is digital. This is because clients often think that building a prototype for a 'digital product' doesn’t cost much. (I used ‘digital products’ as a broad term because distinguishing them would require a whole article.) In contrast, when you want to build a physical structure, you can’t request a sample as it sounds unrealistic". Is this statement true. What’s your take on this, Chris?
My thoughts: your job is to guide the client to the proper budget. Consider showing them past projects/budgets to help them make comparisons
I don't like the idea of pitching because of the copy factor where they may like my offering but not the price then include it using a cheaper company.
Great stuff.
@ 45 mins in - omg! That's how brazen the dysfunction in this industry is where your idea can just be passed off to someone else and they win the job...
Wow.. Maybe it's emotions but that was like instant furious hearing that. WOWOWOOW wtf
I will be honest here!! I don’t get this guy! His reason to participate in a pitch is because there are good reasons?? What are those reasons??? Full disclosure I am not against pitches. But if you say you are a thought leader in that space…i will suggest not having half ideas about what you are saying 🙏🏿🙏🏿
Second his strategies are essentially ask questions, which I think that’s what anyone who has done this a while does. I don’t want to waste my time and money on a client who doesn’t value my time and contribution…so I ask and push and make it uncomfortable. You get your answers when people get a little uncomfortable.
At the end of the day, I don’t get understand what exactly is his point! To be honest.
Anyway, thanks a lot for sharing 🙏🙏
Symphony orchestra auditions are similar.
I've won and lost a few. In each case it's months of intense work. 99% of auditionees get no job, including the winner ;)
🔥🔥🔥🔥
Seems like pitching continues to be a thing because clients hold the keys to work, and it's to their benefit to maintain this system.
Client asking one company to make a concept that another spent money pitching is incredibly unethical!
Sometimes you just have to play the game. Have you read the "Win without pichting manifesto"?
I think the wedding industry is a good example of an industry that pitches its customers. You go in for a “food tasting” and whatever else that involves. It’s sort of presentation like.
Another one would be time shares…. So maybe creative pitching is as unethical as time shares 😂
@NomadOverNormal Food tasting and cake tasting both are priced you need to pay a price to get the tasting, especially in cake tasting there are tiers on how many flavors you want to taste.
@@happygirl5497 I didn’t know this! What about wedding venues ?
@@NomadOverNormal The two websites I worked on had a system to book a viewing of the venue for free, but then you have to put a deposit to book it. My niche is building websites and setting CRMs for people in wedding industry and the food tasting knowledge is because I set up many systems for online booking/payment. So I'm not sure about everyone's setup.
Clients do be quality sometimes tho, am I right? 😎
Wrong.
35:13 NOPE hahaha you literally gotta pay a deposit just to even have a consult! Hahahah
that sounds fair.
This guy talking made me remember that lyric from Drizzy Drake: ''I grow tired of these f* grown man liars, Storytellers, they ain't even need a campfire''
37:07 tattoo artist like photographers. Full spectrum. You got the I’ll do it for free guys and the pay me to even have a consult in 3 months for a job I’ll be able to start in 8 months
What are the ownership rights for creatives if your pitch is not accepted. It's not a physical product. Should you always hold back for that sweetheart deal or go all out to win. Because the creative industry is hamstringed to the software designers.
You retain all the IP. They didn’t buy anything
@thefutur that's the thing though say I came up with a sneaker commercial that had a Sergio Leone color correction sampled beats from funkadelics mixed with some Bob Markey and a hexagon camera angle at 1 foot intervals to produce a 360 view in a flat two dimension and they only like the camera angles because the rest is too ethnic and choose to duplicate that in house, how could I possibly stop them. How do you patent camera angles or software effects that anyone can copy it is almost impossible. Pitching is like meeting Harvey Weinstien for drinks and hoping for the best. Keep your running 🏃♀️ shoes on.
That would be a funny commercial. Close up of Kat Williams lacing up his sneakers 👟. A friend walks in the room wide shot from behind the friend then pop up to the question, "You going running." Then slide with a v hold effect to Kat Williams surly face with the response, "No pitching to Harvey Weinstien tonight." Friend responds, "well lace em up real tight." Fade to black white Nike symbol. With the phrase" Nike your only getway." Then comedic laughter.
@thefutur individuals pitch their worst ideas until they get a foot in the door because they don't want their best ideas stolen. No one wants to feel taken advantaged of. And if they see a great reel and an awful pitch, they know something is up.
Half the time, the team booking the gig does not even use the product. Here is a good example, the best-selling basket ball sneakers air Jordan's. So many other brands try to compete with other athletes and never come close. They don't use the product. Two things anyone who buys basket ball sneaks wants to know how does it feel to take off and landing. All the other brands just show you players, the ball, sweat, fans, all kinds of stuff. It's just take off and cushion of the landing.
I am the first to comment. Kinda excited about that
So stealing content and intellectual property that was not their thought isn’t theft?
Thanks Do for clarifying that you think you’re breaking the law.
tbwl: 25:00
Rigged system? Well, spoiler alert: it was never about free market and competition in the first place, this system works on monopoly and exploitation only.
If you say so.
34:48 that’s not how it works at all. Top tier tattoo artists don’t care, do you want it or not is the approach.
Tell me you don't like each other without telling me
The Arc of the Moral Universe Bends Towards Justice quote pre-dates MLK Jr my friends! But it's a great quote. - lame fact of the day
who said it first?
I don't, i have none
I would rather lose the job than work for free. Until I'm paid, I'm not doing anything.
Okay keep doing that.
A little confusing
What's confusing?
Chur
14:00 lmao "diverse directors" we dont need diverse directors we need TALENTED directors
Good Directors are gonna be automatically diverse.
Good should be the entry point, diverse is what makes a true and different story perspective come to life.
Diverse as in people with a different POV.
Sorry but I struggled with Joel’s thinking
That's actually a good thing. Try to look deeper and see what is causing that and what you can take away from it.
This guy talks nonsense, seems like he lives in his own fanfic! 🤣🤣🤣 this kind of content puts the channel credibility in check...
which guy are you referring to?
@@thefutur this guy Joel
Just a few takeaways…”Pitch to Win”. “Expertly Positioned in a Niche Space”. Many more in my notes. Thank you TF.
You’re very welcome
Glad this conversation was helpful