I'm still coming back to this series here and then for years now because I love to listen to both of them, and there is always a good laugh between the storys and knowledge of them.
Thanks guys. This was my question from Instagram, I appreciate you addressing it and really enjoyed the answers. Especially the tangents, glad it sparked the deeper conversation about philosophy of training.
Explaining the difference between "More and Better". Dialoguing this on a daily basis as a coach with my audience. Great to see you guys. You both spoke, via Tour de Force, at Axis Performance Center in Menlo Park, CA. I absolutely loved it!
This is so absolutely true. Absolutely. You have to match your training to your principles and personality. Much more valid advice than most people realize. Man.....
These questions are more complicated than people(and myself) realize. So they deserve deep answers. That's why I like watching Dave Tate. He thinks things through with his guests.
Wow, sacrificing your values = stress. Looking back, that is so true. The more years I lift, the more I find the artistry and philosophy I never knew existed in developing your body. Oddly enough, focusing on my body doesn’t equate to vanity, not any more at least. It gives me peace, focus and accomplishment. When I removed the vanity, the stress decreased. Thanks guys!
11:20, there may be something to that. A friend of mine just started tren and he swears he can't last more than an hour in the gym because the pump becomes so unbearable he simply can't contract effectively. Although apparently the solution is splitting daily volume into AM/PM sessions.
a great book "the one thing" by gary keller, of keller williams realty, states you need to find that one thing that your good at and focus on it. It sounds like dave tate has figured that out. A little off topic. But this is a great video series.
I think bro splits are more successful for enhanced lifters due to protein synthesis being elevated for longer, but any well respected strength program is for any lifter. Good video.
My coach writes a bad ass program and it's just right. Making steady natty gains for the last 2 years. And if i ever want to stick the needle in, I'm already prepared. But I still have another 6 years of training before I can think about the juice. So to answer WEndler's desire to hear from the frequency for me, a natural lifter--- train 3 days per week. One day is a mock meet, and the other two are close grip and safety bar squats along with heavy heavy assistance work. And it's up to me to train hard and make the correcgt decisions along the way to learn how to train best, to learn MY powerlifting body.
My philosophy is as someone gets stronger, they're able to do more volume. But their CNS does not evolve like the musculature does. CNS is the same when you're 180lbs as it is when you're 270lbs. As volume and weights increase, you start to put more and more stress on it. Hence the need for the volume to cap out as you get stronger. That's my thinking anyways...
I have seen a program just for people taking drugs- from Fred Hatflied, classic template used by some Czech powerlifters. Multiple spreadsheets from Boris Sheiko include so much volume...its impossible to finish them without drugs either.
Drugs also allow unnaturally fast increase in weight used during training cycle... SO you can take lot more volume (faster recovery) and you can count on little faster strenght progress.. So... IM sorry...
I trained drug free for 30+ years and when I went on anabolics I could not do nearly the same volume of training as I could before. I also found that even with minimal volume I got sore after training whereas when training naturally I could train all day and never be sore.
@@edwinprado5620 well i added 20 lbs of lean muscle in a year and about 50 lbs to my bench so def got benefits. not surewhy i saw theothereffects like additional soreness butmaybe because I was handling more weight. Oneof the things they did was pull alot of water and i guess glycogen into the muscle which made me stronger and bigger. i never did tren so maybe thst wod be different story but with test deca and dbol and primo (different cylces) the effexts were always pretty similar although debol left me really water bloated
@@mightyquinn5135 peoples bodies react differently to different drugs, I actually wouldn't mind going on gear, but hell, I've had heart issues as a kid so it may not be the best, if I didn't have problems I'd take it, thanks for your honesty!
the whole 80% clean thing is probably an exaggeration, why would you have people even competing in tested divisions then? Why would untested even exist? I'm not even sure its safe to say 80% of IPF lifters are natural
+stfu donny look at the top 50 lists on powerlifting watch and look at the bottom of the list. Image then that there are another 300-500 lifters who's lifts didn't make it. The three main lists account for around 2000 lifters. With 15,000 lifters only the top 13% make the top 50. Do you think the lifters at the low end of the top 50 list are using PEDS? Look at the numbers. What about the thousands of lifters who don't make the list? Drugs are part of the sport no doubt but when you look at all lifters it not the percentage you think. Most lifters in the sport today only stay in for 1-2 meets and leave so that factors in as well. Go to a local meet and ask yourself based on what you see how many lifters in the meet (men and women) are taking something.
+stfu donny I'm not saying everyone is clean. but there are strong naturals, and even if you do take roids, training and nutrition are still more important. so Jason blaha is still wrong (as usual)
+Dave Tate I can definitely see what you're saying but I feel that 20/80 might be a stretch but then again you would know better than me since I'm only 25.
"I could do an entire 20 minutes video on how I saw it develop(5/3/1), which would probably be interesting to do" - Dave Well, why don't ya? I'd be interested in hearing it.
"Have you ever seen a program written just for people on drugs?" Yeah. The Bulgarian Program. Train 3-4X a day, only doing Snatch Clean & Jerk Squat Front Squat Power Snatch Power Clean, only doing Singles, always to Maximum. A perpetual peaking phase. All other phases (size, strength, GPP) where just handled by drugs.
Natural lifters can do this, it will cause major soreness in the joints and possibly over training, but over training isn't bad, if you do it right, controlled over training is the thing that makes programs like Bulgarian and smolov so valuable to every lifter.
Dave's theory on juiced lifters not being able to handle the same volume as clean lifters is totally plausible. Just look at how women can handle more than men as a consequence of having less testosterone and not being able to express strength as quickly as a man.
I would have called bs 4 months ago....I juiced nonstop 4 yrs I got arrested etc.i did no trt and I eat more and can train more often and I feel better ...my lifts are almost equal as to before ...but my eating , sleeping , intuition etc. has to be on point .
Tony Gruber Its probably true, taking ALL powerlifters into consideration, only focusing on the elite, those competing, those whose names are on the list of the feds, the precentage of clean lifters drops significabtly
Of course, but I am not sure I subscribe to the idea that because a certain type of training is producing results, you should stick to it and sort of become content with it. I think that sometimes that approach is correct, while often times it can lead to complacency.
Simply put -- John McCallum and Bradley Steiner elucidated the OPTIMUM approach long ago. Work the hell out of yourself w relatively short workouts --Then REST !!!
+brian' "I believe out of the total number of powerlifters in the United states, the majority of them are clean" Ok let's stay that statement is right which I guess in a way it could be. But is that powerlifters who have competed? The most well known feds are usually that way because of their UNtested athletes
Walter Sobchak I'd say the majority arent serious enough to take PEDs. Obviously a large number of people are on but I would think that a larger number of people just try the sport and dont keep going in that direction.
Great but after 45 years of training---it's ALL about recovery !!! Simply put having trained on drugs and off drugs --Less is more when clean. Especially not having great genetics.
any thoughts on hypocrisy regarded the rio olympic games, they banned russian athletes for doping and yet they let china and usa participate which make 3 most powerful and sofisticated doping nations
Typical downplaying of gear use from guys who have pushed the absolute limits of gear use and started using at a very young age. Would the strongest men in the world be the strongest if there were no steroids? Yes. Would they be anywhere as strong as they are with all of the enhancement? Not even close.
![Dave Tate and Jim Wendler 2003 Travel Stories [Extended Version] - elitefts.com](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TWioWZZMHAs/mqdefault.jpg)
"Whenever you violate one of your values, you're gonna be stressed." I liked that one a lot. Thought provoking.
Jim and Dave spoke for close to 3 hours so there will be several more videos.
I'm still coming back to this series here and then for years now because I love to listen to both of them, and there is always a good laugh between the storys and knowledge of them.
Thanks guys. This was my question from Instagram, I appreciate you addressing it and really enjoyed the answers. Especially the tangents, glad it sparked the deeper conversation about philosophy of training.
Explaining the difference between "More and Better". Dialoguing this on a daily basis as a coach with my audience. Great to see you guys. You both spoke, via Tour de Force, at Axis Performance Center in Menlo Park, CA. I absolutely loved it!
I knew Jim was a metalhead when he did that growl/scream when talking about the Olympic weightlifters. That takes practice lol.
Lol that made me jump. He needs to join a band if he ain't in one yet.
@@grizzlymanverneteil4443 His bands name is Locust Whip and they fucking slay.
This is so absolutely true. Absolutely. You have to match your training to your principles and personality. Much more valid advice than most people realize. Man.....
Always wondered about frequency vs. PEDs or no PEDs. Really glad you took that question! You guys are raw and uncut. Loving it.
What I took from this video:1. Get a lot of experience.2. Listen to Neurosis.3.You'll figure out everything after steps 1 & 2.
Always good to see these dudes. Genius comes in all packages. Not just scrawny nerds.
These questions are more complicated than people(and myself) realize. So they deserve deep answers. That's why I like watching Dave Tate. He thinks things through with his guests.
I want the peptide program!!
Wow, sacrificing your values = stress. Looking back, that is so true. The more years I lift, the more I find the artistry and philosophy I never knew existed in developing your body. Oddly enough, focusing on my body doesn’t equate to vanity, not any more at least. It gives me peace, focus and accomplishment. When I removed the vanity, the stress decreased. Thanks guys!
This will be the single greatest inside look at training on the internet. It already is.
Much wisdom being passed out for free.
Hahaha, being a long time metalhead I can't help but giggle looking at the compulsiveness and patterns in Jim's finger drumming :D
11:20, there may be something to that. A friend of mine just started tren and he swears he can't last more than an hour in the gym because the pump becomes so unbearable he simply can't contract effectively. Although apparently the solution is splitting daily volume into AM/PM sessions.
Strong out-angling skills by Dave....LOL
Lol
"this is way off topic" but it was exactly what I needed to hear.
5/3/1 is an excellent program as someone new to powerlifting and with 6 years of overall lifting experience. The end.
a great book "the one thing" by gary keller, of keller williams realty, states you need to find that one thing that your good at and focus on it. It sounds like dave tate has figured that out. A little off topic. But this is a great video series.
A very thought-provoking and stimulating talk. Thanks fellas
I think bro splits are more successful for enhanced lifters due to protein synthesis being elevated for longer, but any well respected strength program is for any lifter. Good video.
I'd agree.
Neurosis, fantastic band. This was a fantastic, and insightful talk into getting one's own philosophy and getting to what habits work for them.
Two of my absolute favorites.
Awesome. Can't wait to come out for the seminar in September...
My coach writes a bad ass program and it's just right. Making steady natty gains for the last 2 years. And if i ever want to stick the needle in, I'm already prepared. But I still have another 6 years of training before I can think about the juice. So to answer WEndler's desire to hear from the frequency for me, a natural lifter--- train 3 days per week. One day is a mock meet, and the other two are close grip and safety bar squats along with heavy heavy assistance work. And it's up to me to train hard and make the correcgt decisions along the way to learn how to train best, to learn MY powerlifting body.
My philosophy is as someone gets stronger, they're able to do more volume. But their CNS does not evolve like the musculature does. CNS is the same when you're 180lbs as it is when you're 270lbs. As volume and weights increase, you start to put more and more stress on it. Hence the need for the volume to cap out as you get stronger. That's my thinking anyways...
two of the realist no Bullshit kind of guys telling it like it is keep it up fellas!!
Yet again another video that's worth gold
this is straight real talk no bs just saying it the way it is
Definetly looking forward to more table talk with Wendler
Lol, the contempt for the first question asked was priceless.
bring Jim back
Pure gold, thank you guys!
I love listening to Jim talk
I have seen a program just for people taking drugs- from Fred Hatflied, classic template used by some Czech powerlifters. Multiple spreadsheets from Boris Sheiko include so much volume...its impossible to finish them without drugs either.
Drugs also allow unnaturally fast increase in weight used during training cycle... SO you can take lot more volume (faster recovery) and you can count on little faster strenght progress.. So... IM sorry...
Jim is dropping some serious gems
More of Jim and Dave please!
I trained drug free for 30+ years and when I went on anabolics I could not do nearly the same volume of training as I could before. I also found that even with minimal volume I got sore after training whereas when training naturally I could train all day and never be sore.
Were there any benefits at all in your case then? I ask because I've always thought you could train harder and recover faster on anabolics
@@edwinprado5620 well i added 20 lbs of lean muscle in a year and about 50 lbs to my bench so def got benefits. not surewhy i saw theothereffects like additional soreness butmaybe because I was handling more weight. Oneof the things they did was pull alot of water and i guess glycogen into the muscle which made me stronger and bigger. i never did tren so maybe thst wod be different story but with test deca and dbol and primo (different cylces) the effexts were always pretty similar although debol left me really water bloated
@@mightyquinn5135 peoples bodies react differently to different drugs, I actually wouldn't mind going on gear, but hell, I've had heart issues as a kid so it may not be the best, if I didn't have problems I'd take it, thanks for your honesty!
but Jason blaha told me it was all drugs and nothing else!!! haha good video guys
the whole 80% clean thing is probably an exaggeration, why would you have people even competing in tested divisions then? Why would untested even exist? I'm not even sure its safe to say 80% of IPF lifters are natural
hahahahahaha FUCKING NONE OF THE BEST LIFTERS IN THE WORLD ARE NATURAL NONE NONE NONE NONE LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
+stfu donny look at the top 50 lists on powerlifting watch and look at the bottom of the list. Image then that there are another 300-500 lifters who's lifts didn't make it. The three main lists account for around 2000 lifters. With 15,000 lifters only the top 13% make the top 50. Do you think the lifters at the low end of the top 50 list are using PEDS? Look at the numbers. What about the thousands of lifters who don't make the list? Drugs are part of the sport no doubt but when you look at all lifters it not the percentage you think. Most lifters in the sport today only stay in for 1-2 meets and leave so that factors in as well. Go to a local meet and ask yourself based on what you see how many lifters in the meet (men and women) are taking something.
+stfu donny I'm not saying everyone is clean. but there are strong naturals, and even if you do take roids, training and nutrition are still more important. so Jason blaha is still wrong (as usual)
+Dave Tate I can definitely see what you're saying but I feel that 20/80 might be a stretch but then again you would know better than me since I'm only 25.
I love these dudes. Raw.
"I could do an entire 20 minutes video on how I saw it develop(5/3/1), which would probably be interesting to do" - Dave
Well, why don't ya? I'd be interested in hearing it.
"Have you ever seen a program written just for people on drugs?"
Yeah. The Bulgarian Program. Train 3-4X a day, only doing Snatch Clean & Jerk Squat Front Squat Power Snatch Power Clean, only doing Singles, always to Maximum.
A perpetual peaking phase. All other phases (size, strength, GPP) where just handled by drugs.
No natty people ever did Bulgarian with success
/s
Natural lifters can do this, it will cause major soreness in the joints and possibly over training, but over training isn't bad, if you do it right, controlled over training is the thing that makes programs like Bulgarian and smolov so valuable to every lifter.
derian schmidt you obviously never trained in your life
derian schmidt, overreaching is something alse than overtraining.
you can train everyday all day without drugs. i do. not going to be the worlds strongest man but im stronger now than any other program i used.
Good shit real talk!!😎
Am I the only person who is aware that Jim is dipping during this interview?
Dipping?
@@McTreestump Chewing tobacco iirc
The computer fonts and calligraphy class story was Steve Jobs, not Bill Gates. Sorry. Couldn’t help myself. Great talk though.
dave fucking nailing it
Did you make a video with Jim's philosophy as well as expand on Dave's? Great video!
Dave's theory on juiced lifters not being able to handle the same volume as clean lifters is totally plausible. Just look at how women can handle more than men as a consequence of having less testosterone and not being able to express strength as quickly as a man.
I would have called bs 4 months ago....I juiced nonstop 4 yrs I got arrested etc.i did no trt and I eat more and can train more often and I feel better ...my lifts are almost equal as to before ...but my eating , sleeping , intuition etc. has to be on point .
Love Dave's T-shirt
If Jim could see the ads that play before his videos, it would make his skin crawl.
whenever I grow my beard out and then have to cut it because I look homeless I fuck it up. How can I get a great looking beard like Jim's?
This was great.
Wendell dipping made this video even better haha
Great table talk, wish Jim and Dave did more of them together
Okay, so where do we get the Jim Wendler Signature Series Dbol?
Edit: also, jim made me shit my pants at 4:14.
10:30 min - "80% of Powerlifters out there are clean"
what about it?
Tony Gruber Its probably true, taking ALL powerlifters into consideration, only focusing on the elite, those competing, those whose names are on the list of the feds, the precentage of clean lifters drops significabtly
41 - 13.... bro...we do things in increments of 5...what do you think this is, kilograms?
Do you guys not believe a certain type of programming is actually optimal for a given person, regardless of principles?
Of course, but I am not sure I subscribe to the idea that because a certain type of training is producing results, you should stick to it and sort of become content with it. I think that sometimes that approach is correct, while often times it can lead to complacency.
Wendler went to high school with some friends of mine from Wheeling,il real dude!!
Block, linear, concurrent.... how about all three concurrently?
2:24 is the point of this entire thing
more please
Yup.If you want to bulk up to the super heavys just eat wedding cake lol.
Pancakes
@@jizzyjake6783 I like JM's Big Macs approach still
I need Dave’s shirt...
I'm just glad Neurosis got worked in there.
Simply put -- John McCallum and Bradley Steiner elucidated the OPTIMUM approach long ago. Work the hell out of yourself w relatively short workouts --Then REST !!!
If i can add Bill Starr, Brawn by Stewart McRobert and dinosaur training by Brooks Kubik.
Squat/Push/Pull
So....what are your core philosophies? Your core values?
Tren and dbol
What is the intro music?
You got me
gr8
The prison rape thing was priceless.
He definitely meant Steve Jobs. Not Bill Gates
More like 20% of the lifters are clean.
80% of lifters are probably clean if you count casuals. But yeah, at a state level or higher its more like 20% lol.
80% of powerlifting is clean eh? Guess there's no point in those silly untested feds anymore.
+brian' "I believe out of the total number of powerlifters in the United states, the majority of them are clean" Ok let's stay that statement is right which I guess in a way it could be. But is that powerlifters who have competed? The most well known feds are usually that way because of their UNtested athletes
I believe the majority are clean. 99% of powerlifters will never come close to an elite level so it makes sense that most of them are natural
Walter Sobchak I'd say the majority arent serious enough to take PEDs. Obviously a large number of people are on but I would think that a larger number of people just try the sport and dont keep going in that direction.
Core values that include PEDs???
Great but after 45 years of training---it's ALL about recovery !!! Simply put having trained on drugs and off drugs --Less is more when clean. Especially not having great genetics.
Two never Natty lifters explaining Natty lifting lmao..
10:57 steroids reduce your volume
too much steroids
Tar Dave and Jim
any thoughts on hypocrisy regarded the rio olympic games, they banned russian athletes for doping and yet they let china and usa participate which make 3 most powerful and sofisticated doping nations
Jim looks natty.
why does jim have to keep spitting into that bottle?
He chews snuff
oh ok thanks bro
Dave lookin shtoned
Titaintium yum
Mo junkie
wendler is such a hipster
Typical downplaying of gear use from guys who have pushed the absolute limits of gear use and started using at a very young age. Would the strongest men in the world be the strongest if there were no steroids? Yes. Would they be anywhere as strong as they are with all of the enhancement? Not even close.
11:56 so from experience you just disproved yourself that peeps on shit can't train on the same program or volume as nattys, thanks...
Don't call em PED's, let's keep it real here! Fucking dirty juice, skittles, powderpuff girl piss, the gear. Feel free to add more 😂😂😂😂
sauuccceee
sickening skittles
Vapored tears of dying angels, crystalized demon semen,
dead virgins cunt juice,
death blooms,
cancer blooms.
Dont know many more
Arnolds
Gym candy
what happened to their faces
u should donate blood
No
Great table talk, wish Jim and Dave did more of them together
More coming soon!
If Jim could see the ads that play before his videos, it would make his skin crawl.
DESTINIII CHILDUU
Great table talk, wish Jim and Dave did more of them together