What Robert Marcellus Taught Me About Reeds
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- Опубликовано: 31 авг 2023
- In this video, I share with you how to make reeds play better and last longer.
#reeds #clarinet #clarinetreeds #saxophone #saxophonereeds #robertmarcellus #eugenemarquis #reedbreakinprocess #clevelandorchestra #capitaluniversity #cincinnaticollegeconservatoryofmusic #cincinnaticcm #ccm #woodwinddoubler #woodwinds #woodwind
Best guidance on reeds I've hear in 40 years of playing. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience!
This is awesome information. Thank you for making this!
Thank you very much for share it with all of us!!! I will try this system with my next box of reeds!!!!
Thank you 4 this good info. Happy new year...🎉
Excellent reed seminar. Thank you. Your friend, Lenny Rosen
Pure wisdom and experience, thank you.
Thank you. I've always tried to be a pragmatist. This process works.
Hey there Gene. Great video, chock full of helpful info. So good to see you.
You have to be the Mitch I went to CCM with. Greetings old friend. Fond memories.
I like the taste 😂
Gene, I thoroughly enjoyed your "reed Break-in" system video. I have used water for many years and encouraged my students to do the same after playing in a WW quintet and watching the double reed players handle their reeds. Thanks for sharing your experience and expertise. Bill Isenhart
You are one of the few people I've heard who could actually play an Eb clarinet in tune. David Hite loved the picture of you in the military recruitment poster. He said you looked like you were happy to be getting out. That well-practiced grin of yours.
Wish I had found this years ago! I never got beyond amateur clarinet playing, but played for many years. It was a repairman who told me to wet my reeds with water instead of saliva! Unfortunately, I allowed myself to get out of shape to the point I had no breath control and was also having vision issues, so have now stopped playing at all.
Thankyou so mich for this information. I thought I knew how to break in reeds. Please make more videos like this. Take care!
I have always done some sort of break-in since jr. hi school. Marcellus' much longer system yields results worth the extra time and effort. The best reeds play a lot better just from this treatment and last much longer. More videos coming this summer: My Marcellus-developed warm-up (Not Klose page 123). Clarinet Fundamentals as learned from Hite, Campione, and Marcellus. At least two more clarinet choir videos.
Thank you for opening an unknown subject to an old amateur who loves the clarinet but never mastered it. And a very well done video concisely presented.
Thank you for your kind words. If you go from just playing the reeds out of the box, doing nothing special, trying this break-in approach could transform your playing. We can't play any better than that piece of cane will let us. You will play better and enjoy it more.
Great information. I've done something similar over the years. I was famous in College for having bass clarinet reeds last for multiple semesters - or even years. It was good as I didn't have a lot of money to keep buying reeds and hoping for good ones. I used a Tupperware style container and a salt ball. Salt ball was some rock salt in a clean nylon stocking made into a ball. This would allow me to be mobile (no place to leave reeds out to dry) and dry the reeds - not to mention it would keep things from growing on the reeds as well.
Thank you for your knowledge and experience.
Thanks for your comments. I haven't matched RM's 14 year-old reed yet, but I did get one reed to last for over 12 years. My top reeds usually play their best for over a year and often much longer. Let me know if anything I've suggested makes any difference, good or bad.
Hi - I really enjoyed this video, even though my experience led me to stop breaking reeds in at all. I adjust them for balance right away, and then play them. Everything else you said, however, matches my process - soak in water, flatten the back, rotate reeds, keep a lot in your case, and so on. I was taught the 7 day break-in that you described, a few minutes a day, increase the time gradually, then adjust for balance and strength. I stopped doing it when, as a gigging doubler, got so busy that I occasionally ran out of reeds and had to play new ones on a few gigs. Of course, I adjusted them first, so they would play right. I noticed those reeds lasted just as long and played just as well as the broken in reeds, so I stopped breaking reeds in, and haven’t looked back. Your video is the first thing I’ve seen or read that would make me reconsider.
When I do clinics, I always take a straw poll asking folks how long their reeds last. (Mine are always the oldest usable reeds) There always is a connection between the lifetime of reeds and how long people spend in a break-in stage. Longer break-in equals longer life. No break-in, much shorter lifetime. When I extended the break-in from seven days to the much longer time that Marcellus preferred, my reeds played much better, lasted longer, and produced more usable reeds in every box.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and reed break-in process... I've found a lot of what you're saying to be true... water vs saliva... break-in slowly. One thing that I do that helps emensely is sealing the cane open capillary structure so that very little moisture ( water / saliva gets in to leave mineral and other damaging deposits) I break-in with water... let dry then seal the reed pores with cotton bond paper... huge impact... I don't have to play them at all for the first few days... then flatten and level the back so is seals well with the mouthpiece (ReedGeek is perfect for this..perfectly machine tolerance flat) then begin using them slowly as you do and make balance and resistance adjustments... my reeds are always good 😊
I've known people who use distilled water to help minimize mineral build-up. I prefer to control the wetness of reeds by manipulating the wetting procedure. For me, sealing the reed has been minimally effective. Water molecules are extremely small and can easily bypass most materials. To that end, the Rico Plasticover reeds are too well sealed. You have to work hard to get those reeds wet enough. Find the happy medium your best way.
Thank you
Interesting information Gene. I played a couple J. Mathis shows with you in 2017. I'm from Ft.Wayne, IN, but have been in Nashville, TN since 1978. I played most of the saxophone solos with Nashville Symphony while Ann Dickson was PM. I'm a ww doubler and have played many Bway and artist shows, like you. I have managed to get a lot of use out of reeds, using a method similar to yours. Studying with Marcellus must have been a great experience. The former 2nd clarinet /NSO studied with him prior to being hired here.
Johnny Mathis is truly a class act and a genuinely nice person backstage. I remember working and talking shop with you back then. Ann Dickson studied clarinet with me when she was in HS. Her father is the long-standing bary sax in the Blue Wisp Big Band from the Cincinnati area. Many players do some sort of break-in, but usually for a shorter period. It takes real commitment to do the much longer break-in like the Marcellus approach. Once tried, it sells itself by the superior reeds produced. Robert Marcellus was the teacher you went to after studying with everybody else. He was like a finishing school for clarinetists. He could hear and fix things that other teachers seemingly couldn't do as well. Very high standards, partly from Szell.
With the Boosey & Hawkes clarinet I showed you, I never used any reed other than the one tha was on it when I got it. This was an education.
You can have the best clarinet, mouthpiece, and ligature in the world, but without a good reed, you can't get your best sound. Period.
Would love to hear you talk about mouthpieces
Even though I kept in touch with David Hite over the years, I never got interested in the hands-on work of mouthpieces. I can speak about design generalities. Good suggestion. I'll think about it. Thanks.
Great video! I was close friends with Dave Hite - was on his daily joke list :)
I'm a bit jealous. I was never on his joke list.
I'm in high school and have been gambling with reeds since I started. Will definitely apply this strategy! Thank you!! I'll edit this comment with my results.
Greatly enjoyed this information today. Was fortunate to have listened to Marcellus perform many times with the Cleveland Orchestra. Would like to know what other techniques you employ with reeds in future videos. Loved the Barber - Adagio. Thank you Sir.
I was also fortunate to hear Robert Marcellus in many concerts. His performances were as valuable as the lessons. The recordings with Szell still stand as benchmark examples of how to play the clarinet in an orchestra. More videos are in the works, including the warm-up that I developed with his help and continue to use. It's not Klose page 123. Other music videos are also coming. Thanks
Wow Gene what an awesome video! I will attempt to implement this process on my next box!
Do you or Marcellus do any reed balancing if so do you have a video on that topic? Thanks for sharing your time and expertise!🙏🙏🙏
I delay balancing work until near the end or after the break-in process is finished. The reed changes too much in the early stage. With the improvements in manufacturing, reeds seem to need less adjusting than 50 years ago. The cutting is much more consistent. I do the same when breaking-in a new wooden instrument. No undercutting or tuning work for at least six months to a year. Wait for the instrument to settle down and then fix it. Clarinets tend to be more resistant when new and become more free-blowing with time. If you do the undercutting and tuning on a brand-new instrument, it could be too free-blowing a year later. When selecting a new clarinet, I go for the best one that is a little too resistant, to have room for it to loosen up. No video on balancing reeds, yet. I likely have little or nothing to share that isn't already known and available. Let me know if Robert Marcellus' process produces good results for you.
Thank you very much for share it with all of us!
I wonder if I have to warm up(about 30sec) from the video instead of practicing separately for 28 days.
My warm-up starts with the reed work first. From the 2nd day forward your first notes should get a good tone more easily since you're 1st notes are played on a good reed. This should also help you play more correctly. After reed work I do finger and tongue patterns. Try as shown in the video and let me know the results.
Thank you very much!
And••• Do you play new reeds only 30 sec before 28 days?
Thank you so much for your wonderful video! I watched this video about a month ago and it was sooooo helpful :)
Can I ask you an additional question?
I am wondering how to take care of a lead after the 28 days.
Shall I do the same thing for 30 seconds to 1 minute?
After reeds are through the process and are mixed with the reeds in my case, I play them much longer. My rule of thumb is no more than an hour or so, but if a reed starts to play badly I replace it immediately. If you stop right away when a reed acts up, you might not damage it. Continuing to play it could ruin it. Newer reeds should be treated more gently at first. If you do that, they keep getting better for a long time.
Great video! Curious once you’ve gone through this process if you store your reeds in their cases in any humidity, like the boveda packs?
If possible, I let my reeds dry out completely before putting them in holders with grooves underneath the reed. No baggie with a wet sponge inside. Just in the reed pocket in my case. I adjust wetting the reed to compensate for weather conditions. Using water allows you to wet less on a rainy day and more in the winter. Buildings with steam heat are the worst at drying out the air. In the mid-west summers can be way too humid. The problem becomes avoiding mold from too much moisture. I've not had much if any difference trying the newer reed holders. What I do is sort of the old analogue way. Mostly what I learned from Robert Marcellus and David Hite. And continuing to keep an open mind to new things.
The reed geek is great for the bumps :-)
That and more. I am used to the more analog way of fixing reeds and the extra flexibility that it may have. Just one good knife with a scraping edge and a rounded tip to be able to do very small adjustments.
@@eugenemarquis4855I don't have a reed knife. I've had the geek for a while. I'm not comfortable using it except for the back :-).
I usualy use water at first the a nasty fungus strat to built up on my reeds the a change to votka and works but they dont last for a long time what I can do about it thanks great information
It sounds like you must have high humidity in your area and the reeds stay wet too long. Do whatever you can to help them dry out faster. Maybe a small fan blowing on them would help. Any alcohol absorbs water but I would suggest not using vodka, but only water instead.
This was very helpful. Thank you for sharing your routine in such detail. I’ve found the opposite when it comes to my reeds as they break in: that they start softer and get harder as they break in, especially in the winter, but certainly year round as well. This leaves me with reeds that are too hard every winter come late Jan & Feb.
Is this peculiar to me, or perhaps could I be doing something to cause this? I keep my reeds in a sealed container with humidity packs and adjust for warpage on the back of the Reed as needed. Thanks again for such a helpful video!
Very curious. What you describe is opposite of what most players I've talked to say what happens with their reeds. My guess is that you may not be bringing your reeds to the optimum level of wetness. Too dry makes reeds play stiffer, but too wet will make them swell up too much and tighten up inside, making them play with a bound-up kind of resistance. I'll have to think about this some more.
Thanks for this useful and informative video! It would have been great to also hear you play on a finished or broken in reed. My question is, after doing this 5 week process, how long will those reeds last. For the purposes of my question, you can assume you would only play each reed 1 or 2 hours a week. Or perhaps you can say how long you would play each reed per week, and how many weeks they last. I was astonished at the beginning of the video where Marcellus gave you a 12 year old reed? That's hard for me to believe. Finally, if they last so long, do you ever "clean" them in any way, like rinsing in water or hydrogen peroxide?
I practice clarinet every day. Reeds first. Then a routine of scales, etc. Then whatever music needs work. My reeds usually continue to get better for a while, easily lasting 1-2 years. It's not uncommon to have good, usable reeds that are 4-5 years old. The Marcellus reed I tried was over 14 years old. My best so far lasted 12 and 1/2 years. In it's 11th year It was still good enough for pit work. I should have played my best, finished reeds in the video. In clinics I play the best, worst, and oldest reeds. Every reed gets played at least 1-2 hours a week, not including gigs. Hydrogen peroxide will clean a reed but seems to shorten its lifetime. Water is still one of the best solvents.
Thanks for this, a very clear and helpful video. I was interested that at no point did you seem to "soak" the reeds, using only short dips in the water. I have always left the reeds in the water for two-three minutes. Any comments on this? Once again, thanks.
I think that we are each trying to find the optimum level of wetness that works for our own needs. For me, if reeds get too wet they swell up enough that they play worse, mostly stiffer in the wrong way. Less springy and more airy. The 1-2 second dunk gives you more ways to bring the wetness of the reed to your optimum level.
Thanks-I have been doing it “my way” for 50 years, without ever considering that there might be more to learn or try, and it’s great to consider other possibilities. Really glad to have come across your video…
So do you put them in the little plastic holder until the next day. Or flat down on the table or glass
I leave reeds flat side up on the glass plate 24/7. Storing reeds is only needed if you don't have a way to leave them out safely in one place. Try to let them dry completely before putting them away. This lessens the chances of any mold forming.
Do you visually inspect the heart of the reed against a light? If so, do you find any correlation between how the heart looks under a light and how it plays? Thanks!
Since I will try every reed in a box, what the heart looks like doesn't weigh into my decisions. However, there used to be a music store in downtown Cincinnati, Tri-State Music, that had a table and light set-up so you could look through many reeds and inspect their insides. The reeds with the upside-down 'U'-shaped heart played better. I could count on getting a better-than-average number of good reeds by being able to select them that way. Today that kind of store is rare. Sealed boxes are the norm. Try them all anyway.
I'm curious if you do any work on your reeds other than flattening the back. For example, do you do any balancing work once the reeds have settled?
I do some balancing work on reeds though less seems to be needed due to the improvements in manufacturing. I am preparing a video on balancing reeds, out later this year. Definitely, I wait until late in the break-in process to do any balancing. As you say, not until they have settled.
Do find it beneficial to store reeds in reed case with a Boveda pack ?
The problem is that when the reed comes out of some box, it still must be made playable in whatever the surrounding conditions are. Basically, I always dry my reeds completely before storing them. Using water, I can adjust how much I wet the reed to match the conditions of the air/temperature/humidity, to get almost any reed playable.
I do something similar. Have you tried Gonzalez FOF? I use FOF 3 3/4
I tried Gonzalez when they first appeared. Good cut. Played well. Short life. What counts the most with me is the quality of the cane, its' springiness. Some day someone will figure out a way to correctly judge each piece of cane for how good of a spring it will become as a reed.
Hi @eugenemarquis4855, I played gigs with you in Cincinnati in the 80s. Mostly Cincy Ballet. Cheers.
Your daughter studied clarinet with me. Right, doctorsqueaky?
When rotating reeds how long do play on one before rotating yo the next one ?
Either no more than an hour or so at a time, or if it suddenly acts up and gets bad, it immediately gets replaced. If you stop playing a reed when it goes bad, it might be usable the next time. If you keep playing it, it could become unusable. This applies to reeds that are already broken-in.
THANK YOU!
Very helpful video!
I have one question - when you break in reeds after 4 weeks, do you still wet your reeds before playing them in water and than when reeds rest 5 minutes you play maximum one hour and switch to next one, or you use saliva after break in process?
Best regards!
I use water all the time. Fresh tap water at home and a bottle of fresh water that goes in my case for everywhere else. Saliva will get on the reed while playing. Using water all the rest of the time helps to rinse most of the saliva out of the reed. The primary goal is to minimize the chemical effect of saliva. Water is also better in many other ways.
plug for synthetic reed? what is your thought about them in general? I've found much less variance and the longevity is unparalleled to any cane.
I used one plastic reed for two years of marching band. It took all the wear and tear off of my cane reeds. Todays' synthetic reeds play much better than those of decades ago.
But the best ones are still only about as good as the 4th or 5th best reed in a box of 10, using the Marcellus break-in approach. I can produce much better playing cane reeds that easily last a year and quite often 2-3 years. I have noticed that when some players switch to synthetic reeds, their pitch drops and the sound spreads. Not always , and I'm not sure what might cause the difference. Too soft of a reed? Doubtful in a fine player.
Synthetic reeds are easily way more consistent than cane reeds. I will use them when they are as good or better than the best reed in a box.
I have tried Legere Signature reeds and, while I think it is possible to get excellent results with them, I haven't been able to get used to the feel of them on clarinet, though I now prefer them to cane on alto sax, but that is a different instrument. As for longevity, using a single reed and playing it regularly, I find the Legere reeds on sax last maybe a few months before becoming too soft for my taste, though maybe they would still be playable on a different kind of mouthpiece after that. Legere recommends rotating their reeds, and I am going to start doing that to see. Certainly, not having to break in or balance reeds is a major advantage of synthetic, as well as their stability, and some really excellent concert clarinetists sound fabulous using the Legere Signatures, clarinetists such as Corrado Giuffredi, Eddie Daniels, and Ricardo Morales, all of whom have recorded extensively with these reeds.
Excellent Vid. But what about unevenness… besides scraping the lower spin area, the front , sides , etc… a lot of reeds are just not consistent (which can be good or bad depending)
In my lifetime I've seen the manufacture of reeds improve greatly. They are much more consistent and are finished to much tighter tolerances. The strength grading is also much better. The wide variation in playability comes mostly from the cane itself. What we like in a good reed is the springiness. Reed cane can vary from being like tuning fork spring steel to a lump of play in its springiness. You can't make a lump of clay reed play much better, but you can do things to help a tuning fork reed last longer and play its best, thanks to Robert Marcellus.
@@eugenemarquis4855 so back to the original question : what do you do about areas on the reed that are uneven ?
I delay any balancing until later in the break-in process and wait for the reed to settle down in how much it changes from day to day. Undercutting a new clarinet is delayed for the same reason. All by feel, I balance the tip first and then work my way down the reed, playing after every bit of cutting with a knife. I've tried many other things. What doesn't work for me, I don't use. Try things and use what actually works for you. The most often that I take a knife to a reed is to keep the back side of the reed flat. Some reed ideas include a trade-off. Better in some ways, worse in others. It's better if everything is improved with no negative trade-off. Some visual defects are better left alone. Many of the best Vandoren bass clarinet reeds I've played have a bump in the heart that looks wrong. I don't fix it because doing that made play it worse. Just being pragmatic. Hope that answers your question. @@emjay2045
@@eugenemarquis4855 thanks !
A 5-year-old reed? Can't even imagine that for practice or emergency backup. Are you getting years of use this way? You don't mention adjusting reeds, and if and when you start doing that in the process. I would limit any adjustments early on to pretty extreme cases that are way too hard or seriously unbalanced, and leave major adjustments to after the reed has settled in. To remove uneveness in the bottom of the reed, I have used a bastard file, sandpaper, or rubbing on normal typing paper or similar. Also, during the early break-in, I rub down the vamp of the reed and its underside with a cotton handkerchief over my finger, after I am done playing the reed and have washed it off and removed excess water from it, to smooth the surface of the vibrating portion of the reed.
Many of my reeds are usable for years, Often, they continue to get better for a long time. My best 4-5 reeds can be six months to two years old. I practice and work on reeds daily. To get the results that I do takes the whole process that I describe in the video. I delay balancing reeds until well into the break-in stage, They change too much earlier on. The Marcellus approach is to protect the natural springiness of the reed for a long as possible. Try it and see for yourself.
Water keeps the reed cleaner - so works better
After the first 30 minutes of playing, the hemi cellulose leeches out. Then the reed is stable.
So, is that the stuff that gives new reeds a nasty taste? Is stability ever really achieved?
Question- why bother ranking the reeds if you’re going to treat them all the same anyway (i.e. play them all for a few minutes each for a month)? Why not just assess them for the first time after a month - i.e. after they’ve all settled down?
Because sometimes the cane is just not good and is prone to warping. So whatever one does it won’t fix them. The ranking system is good to sort out good reeds from bad and strong reeds from the light reeds
Reeds change a lot from the beginning to the end of this process. If you follow their order from the first day to the last, the first day is no valid prediction of the outcome. Some of the better reeds will die off and other bad ones will sometimes become a great late bloomer. If you're going to play them every day anyway, re-assessing the order adds no more work. If you play all the new reeds for the full break-in period the worst ones will still be un-usable. As I stop playing the bad reeds, I give more time to the remaining good ones.
Good point ! 🧑🎓 🫡
If you check and change the order every day instead of only the last day, your overall assessment skills will be much sharper. @@emjay2045
Ah, so after a certain time you abandon or demote the certified bad reeds? When do you know for sure that it won’t be a later bloomer, and that it really is just a bad reed?
Any professional would take note of this method and be great full for the knowledge ,but a guy with 3/4 reeds who plays in a band once a week????.
For that person I suggest taking any new reeds to rehearsals, play each one no more than five minutes, then play any older reeds for the rest of the rehearsal. Use water and any other parts of my suggestions that fit your style and time. Try not to use new reeds a lot until they've been broken-in through several rehearsals.
et si tu mets tes anches en Arundo Donax avec un taux d'humidité correspondant à l'hygrom2 trie du roseau..si tu la mouilles elle sera à 100 pour cent ...??? Alors ...,, vive les anches synthétiques...désolé mais un réel confort...et surtout neplus se prendre la tête avec une anche qui sera bien aujourd'hui et demain ,,,,??? Ou pire tenir 15 minutes sans bouger ...le temps d'un concerto...
I have used synthetic (plastic) reeds off and on since I was in HS. Today's synthetic reeds are much better, though only as good as the 5th, 6th, or 7th best reed out of a box of 10. My cane reeds are far better than any synthetic reed I've tried so far. When they are as good or better than the best reed out of ten, then I'll switch. If possible, English please. My French is not so good. Thanks you.