EPISODE 99 - Detransitioned & Damaged by the Dutch Protocol: Teiresias
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- Опубликовано: 7 дек 2022
- In this last episode before our break, we begin with some important and exciting announcements about what listeners can expect in 2023 from Gender: A Wider Lens. We then launch into one of our most important interviews yet: “Teiresias” was a patient at the notorious Dutch clinic. Unlike the common misconception that the Dutch used an air-tight method for correctly identifying kids who would benefit long-term from transition, Teiresias’s detransition reveals the truth about childhood gender medicine, even when it’s being practiced by the “gold standard.”
He speaks out about his medical transition and subsequent detransition. Teiresias was a feminine boy who, with puberty, became increasingly distressed by his same-sex attraction. One day Teiresias watched a TV program where a trans man described the happiness that came about as a result of medical transition. A seed was sown, and Teiresias turned to the internet where he was encouraged by older trans women to transition as soon as possible.
Teiresias describes the way the Dutch clinic ignored his childhood trauma, the difficulties with his father, his self-loathing, and his internalized homophobia and instead, led him on to a medicalized pathway with the gender affirmative approach. An over-eager surgeon encouraged Teiresias to undergo many procedures until one day he realized he was chasing a false dream. He then decided to get off the fast track and began his detransition.
Links:
● Sasha’s Parent Coaching Membership Site:
www.subscribestar.com/sashalpc
● Stella’s Substack:
stellaomalley.substack.com/
● gender-a-wider-lens.captivate...
● gender-a-wider-lens.captivate...
Extended Notes
● Stella shares her experience of speaking with detransitioners from the Dutch clinic.
● Teiresias felt that he had a double side, telling friends he wanted to be a girl.
● His parents switched schools because of the bullying in the previous one.
● At ten, Teiresias felt neutral about being attracted to other boys and said he was gay.
● He thought puberty would make him attracted to women.
● He found himself mimicking straight boys and talking about liking girls while still being attracted to boys.
● At 12 or 13, he used derogatory terms to describe trans people just like everyone else.
● The family went through a difficult divorce while he was entering puberty. It caused him to isolate himself.
● In 2015, a talk show introduced him to a teenage trans man who described how happy he was after transitioning.
● Based on information he found on the internet, he self-diagnosed as bipolar and autistic until finding a trans description he aligned with.
● Teiresias started fixating on certain parts of his body but it never solved a problem.
● After entering the Dutch clinic, he had a specific picture in his mind of the woman he wanted to become.
● During his intake to the clinic in 2015, his mother insisted he was still troubled by his relationship with his father.
● There was a real-life phase at the clinic where Teiresias was expected to dress and live as a woman. He didn’t feel comfortable participating.
● The clinic gave him hormones hoping it would give him the self-esteem to help him make the switch from male to female. They said it was their gift to him.
● He gained a lot of weight, possibly from the estrogen.
● After several surgeries, Teiresias was left with a nose that didn’t look normal or allow him to breathe.
● He worried about how people perceived him when in public because he was hyper-focused on the shape of his body.
● He returned to the Dutch clinic to confront the staff.
● During his detransition and through his anger, Teiresias continued to go to the gender clinic so they could better understand why he desisted.
● A documentary solidified his belief that he was making a mistake.
● Teiresias contends that he has always had some type of body dysphoria.
I remember the episode with the leaders of the clinic he attended and wondered then at their glibness, and now we see the reality. Two things really stand out other than this young man’s intelligence and depth. One is that no mental health issue was explored other than to confirm a one-track diagnostic prejudice, and the consequence of that, which is the lack of psychological breadth and depth and indeed, the lack of understanding and acceptance of the full range of being a human, displayed by that clinic’s staff.
Wasn’t this convo so poignant in light of what the Dutch researchers said in their interview?
@@widerlenspod Is it an interview on this channel? Can someone direct me to the interview the commenter above referred to?
What I have gotten out of it so far is that the doctors are flat out insane.
Of all the detrans stories I have heard about, the full nightmarish quality of it all is really coming through in his story. It is a real life version of a type of horror movie called body horror. And I can’t help but feel there is something pornographic about it.
He needs to take his story on the RUclips circuit. He is very articulate and able to get so much nuance across. I still have about an hour to go.
@@scatterbrained1457 he has given an interview on Benjamin Boyces channel as well. There is an entire playlist of detransitioners to listen to on his channel.
Thank you for allowing this conversation to unfold at its own pace. After listening to dozens of these detransition stories, I’m struck by the unique power of personality these people share as a group. It is not easy to stand out from the “norm” as every individual story tells us, but why must they pay such a high personal price? Clearly society has a need for plenty of self reflection before embarking on the arrogant and too often disastrous path of medicalizing treatment for body dysmorphia without throughly exploring root causes. It is heart breaking to hear every time. Once again those who desist are raising their heads above the parapet in the courageous act of sharing who they are and what they have learned, and by doing so, we as a society can examine where we have gone wrong. Thank you.
Trans people aren't diagnosed with body dysmorphia, we're diagnosed with gender dysphoria or gender incongruence (the name differs depending on which diagnostic textbook the centre subscribes to). Body dysmorphia is actually one of the things they check for as an alternative explanation before they'll diagnose you with gender dysphoria. See Transsexual and Other Disorders of Gender Identity: A Practical Guide to Management by James Barrett.
"They're just not that deep". Thank you Sasha. It's such a simple statement but it puts so much into perspective.
What a surprize to find that those who believe one can be healed by the cosmetic use of hormones and surgery, in order to change their patients outside apperance, aren't terribly deep.
This is a tragedy. This is madness. Is it possible something is mentally and morally wrong with these doctors and therapists? Teiresias is definitely one of the best detransitioners whose story I have heard. I wonder if you could interview the woman therapist who quit. I wonder if she speaks English. I wish he would write a memoir and try to get it published.
Near the end of this interview, when he said he has so much more to say, I could hear how very important it was. There is so much healing occurring just being able to talk and be SINCERELY LISTENED TO!
It is so valuable to the audience to be able to hear more from him as well.
This was 8 months ago. I hope we will hear more from him soon.
That struck me too…he could have just kept talking, it felt like a therapy session and all I could think was “yea that’s probably all he needed all along” just good basic talk therapy so he could work through things. I hope they have him back too…now it’s been 8 months since your comment
Interview starts 14:00 ish
Thanks for doing this interview, Stella and Sasha. Since the Dutch protocol has been held up as such a careful and successful model, it is very interesting to hear from someone who was harmed but them. Have a wonderful break, and I look forward to your return in February!
Saint Lucia day, and the ritual of stepping through the lighted wreath is really interesting with regards to his story.
Thank you for letting him talk.
I don't think a lot of males considering transition quite realize the self-consciousness and levels of critique that even biological females find themselves under and put themselves through on a daily basis regarding their appearance. It just adds more stress to your life (when you're someone who cares deeply about how you look).
I relate to a lot of the childhood and family issues this man speaks about. I will say. Testosterone stulted my sex drive as a Lesbian. It never existed until I came off testosterone.
Thank you Teiresias for sharing and be so open with your story. You are such a valuable, smart and thoughtful person that have a whole life ahead to live. Do not despair, life is a gift and you are meant to live it the best that you can with the tools that you have and acquire with every experience you live. I wish you the best.
This was very illuminating and so hard to listen to. The pain and anger, totally justified and so hard to hear. I hope he finds peace and acceptance.
Yes, definitely. Thanks for your comment.
When I was going to scjool back in the 60s and 70s, you nevef heard any of the kids saying they thoughy they were born in the wrong body.
This is a new trend going n on in todays world.
This is a really really good episode, Teiresios (ias? I see you write it -ias, but it did sound more like -ios) is a very interesting person. He seems to have a great analytical and self-aware mind, and definitely worth listening to not only for his own story but also for more general insights. Really looking forward to you having him on again!
We are too - he was great. Thx for listening!
Going miss you both over the holidays! Have a relaxing break!!
Will miss you all too! Catch you after the holidays
It is just so amaizing to see how many of these kids are gifted....
Suggesting something about gender conformity...
@@L_Martin not really, suggesting how neurodivergent kids don't feel that they belong and chose weird explanations. How desperate they a are to belong ..
@@constructor5008 My point was, could it not be possible that being neurodivergent might predispose people towards gender nonconformity? For a number of reasons.
@@L_Martin possibly. However, in environments, cultures and families where children are free to express and explore play without any constraint on their play being gendered, the majority of children will explore toys and activities and express emotions across the gender spectrum.
Controlling for the influence of family and culture is difficult to do so accurrate research is limited. However, there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that strict gender conformity is the rarity not gender non conformity.
Seems to be the opposite, no? If many trans identified people are autistic, wouldn't that imply that they are more gender conforming than others/more likely to adhere to stereotypes, since gender ideology is based in that?
Thank you so much to Teiresiasabd you guys for sharing such a powerful story
Thank you for sharing! ❤
The first half hour there were ads every 5 minutes. Terribly distracting.
But the podcast was excellent.
Thanks for the feedback!
Great interview. I'd also love to hear you speak with Michael Biggs! He has written some great articles about the Dutch Protocol and the insane medical quackery of the transition industry.
Thank you for the suggestion! We always appreciate listener feedback!
Adults whose best idea is placating children (all the 'little presents') belong nowhere near their care. These are very immature, unwise adults.
Je venais de dire que j'eus hâte de vous réécouter au retour, puis je vois la date de sortie de cette vidéo là… Le temps se fait phoqué pas mal sur le web, hein ?
¡slainte!
The incompetence of these doctors...unbelievable!!!!
The very fact they work in the field of gender identity is per se a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE red flag.
The entire shitshow encapsulated in a two and a half hour talk.
RUclips is currently really screwing this up with adbreaks. Every five minutes or so (feels like every two minutes). Luckily you can easily find the podcast also for plain download (podbean - would be good if there was a download button on the homepage too, but that is pretty rare nowadays).
Especially for a long podcast frequent adbreaks are just poison. I don't know how much the creator can influence this, I know it seems to vary channel to channel, and also this kind of "ads gone wild" problem seems to sometimes go away after awhile. But I want to listen now! So off to download the episode I go.
ETA: there's a question about where I'm watching from, and that there's never any ads in the UK that is only showing up in my notifications. I'm in Finland - maybe you have some kind of youtube-premium if you never get any ads?
Yes, premium removes all adds. And you can also listen on Apple Podcasts too
Why do you have p* bear as your avi?
I listen on Google podcasts, and there are no ads.
There always seems to be something slightly off with these cases of detransitioners where their experiences noticeably diverge from those of trans people. I've always fancied women and I never thought for one minute that anything the gender clinic could offer me could change my sexuality (and was surprised when I realized I was a bit bi after I started taking HRT). Doctors really should pick up on these things and patients themselves should ask themselves questions and be honest with themselves and open with clinicians about their motivations for transitioning. Similarly a refusal to do the real life experience really stands out. When I realized that I needed to transition I couldn't manage another day of living the life that I didn't want to live and I wanted things to change as fast as possible and I started the real life experience on my own before I ever reached the top of the queue at the gender clinic. Changing my name and style of dress and meeting other trans people for the first time was a period of real buzz and happiness for me within what had been a sea of depression. And when I came out to my mum one of the things she asked was why I couldn't come out as gay as a way of dealing with my feminine expression but I had to explain that this isn't about who I'm attracted to, it's about feeling comfortable in my own skin. Being gay would be so much easier than having to deal with doctors and being dependent on medications which are sometimes out of stock, etc. It seems like some cases at gender clinics are falling through the cracks because of bad implementations of the protocol rather than there being anything massively wrong with the protocol itself.
And when I came down with PTSD because of a violent sexual assault I told the gender psych that this thing happened to me and that I had a lot of complicated feelings about my genitals which I couldn't make sense of and that I didn't feel confident making any decisions about gender assignment surgery while I was still processing what happened to me because the thought that I make the wrong decision and end up regretting the surgery was terrifying. And they were cool with that and we just spent the session with me telling my story and crying and he diagnosed me with PTSD and we went over time as a 30min session turned into 1 hour. Seven years later after I'd had 2 years of counselling from a local rape crisis centre and another 12 sessions with a specialist psychologist at the gender clinic I finally felt comfortable to begin seriously discussing possibilities in terms of surgery again.
Childhood trauma, again. As I know from my female identifying ex-husband. This is why you should be listening to trans widows. Ute Heggen RUclips channel.
Woooooow 😮
What a story 😨
There's really no other word that i can find to describe a lot of what's going on around all of this.... diabolical is what it is but i think MOST of the parents and professionals involved are doing it out of love and compassion. They are unaware of the unseen hand at work here.
Good intentions, dangerous decisions. Thanks for your comment
I am glad he can breathe again, but definitely can hear that his nose is still messed up
Is divorce/break up of a family a common factor in gender dysphoria/trans identity/other types of dysmorphia etc?
I had heard that adopted children were more likely to identify as trans and that daughters of divorced parents went through puberty a year earlier on average. I don't know if there is an expert on the general family factors from a scientific or statistician pov we could listen to on this subject?
Those surgeons are scary people 😐
......just follow the money.....
Pretty Horrifying. God bless him. Peace. 🐿
Is your guest’s pseudonym a reference to the character of a very similar name in the ancient Greek play “Oedipus Rex?” Tiresias was a blind soothsayer who told the truth, which was not very happily received by Oedipus, the king.
He should the left the therapists.
Holland is not a country. It's 'The Netherlands'.
The Netherlands is called Holland is some languages
Holland can also refer to a region inside the Netherlands.