Shockingly Harleen quinzel isn't even the most egregious superwhatever name, my favourite is a guy called "blackbolt" whose real name is "Blackagar Boltagon"
To be fair, Harley Quinn was originally invented as a single episode sidekick character for the Joker in Batman the Animated Series. They only retroactively added more backstory to her character after she became a fan favorite.
@@MegaChickenfish Origin fans: Best Batman characterisation and Boss Battles enjoyers. It did also have my favorite writing of the games, but that's a personal opinion of mine.
Arkham Knight has people who not only liked it about as much, but actually prefer it? City for me. Origins was pretty good, but I was there more for a story I didn't already know the end of.
It’s not that “Superman-Turns-Evil” is the only way to make him interesting, it’s more that “Superman-Turns-Evil” seems to be the is the only plot that massive, committee-designed corporate moneypits of this caliber will approve of. The old comics industry chestnut of “we can only do cool and interesting ideas if it’s a small project and the bosses don’t know/don’t care” seems to follow superheroes into movies and now games as well
Given the amount of (quite correct, but still) comments to the tune of "Superman can be interesting without turning evil", I'm almost kinda sorta thinking maybe Yahtzee might have tossed that one in there to bait Engagement.
It's the same chestnut that led to things like Watchmen, Suicide Squad, Outsiders, or Exiles thing, isn't it? You can do a lot with characters that aren't under lock & key or constant resets.
It’s something the not fans say, similar to „Batman should kill the Joker“. Neither evil Superman nor Killer Batman are a thing with the fans of these characters. Both ideas are just there to interest the people that were never interested in Superman and Batman to begin with.
I love that the game jumps right into "kill the Justice League" instead of "kill the one guy who's hypnotizing the Justice League, because obviously killing off all of our heroes is a really bad idea".
My guess is that they wanted to be edgy in the style of the old „Deadpool kills the Marvel heroes“ comic book. If it would be actually funny and distinctively not bound to the Arkhamverse, there could be even some room for that. But the bad gameplay kills it anyway.
@@ElvenRaptor They will try, and my gut says that the justification will be "You've all been stuck in a Brainiac simulation this whole time lol, the Justice League actually took care of Brainiac while you were soiling yourselves in a coma"
I remember reading on TV Tropes where someone pointed out that one of the main problems with the 2016 Suicide Squad was its villain Enchantress, who clashed so hard tonally with the movie's otherwise down-to-earth premise, that watching the titular squad fight her was akin to watching the Dirty Dozen fight Rita Repulsa. I get the feeling some of the game's writers looked at that and went "we can do even worse". Watching Superman get gunned down by a bunch of jobbers that Batman could take out in his sleep was beyond surreal...and then there was Batman's ignominius end at the hands of Harley who had the gall to accuse HIM of inflicting emotional and psychological damage on his enemies. Not even Garth Ennis could write something so vile.
The villainess was a problem. But imo the basic b plot written for a standard superhero movie was also a problem. The Suicide Squad isn’t a superhero team and the movie wasn’t written to take that into account. Instead we got some really weak superhero movie, where they even have a moment of making up their mind to save the world. Nobody had the guts to write them as villains, hell Deadshot became an anti-hero and poor father to just farm some „but he isn’t really evil“ points. I hate it, when actors like Will Smith get hired for the role of a villain and the story gets rewritten to make them look less like a villain.
@@davidgantenbein9362 I think it would have worked best as a "black ops" type deal. The Suicide Squad are sent in to deal with a threat that either the government doesn't want to involve heroes in, or that they're using the main cast as a reconnaissance force before the actual heroes jump in but they end up saving the day after they lose communication or the time is running out, all of this being covered up by Amanda Waller and her agents. I remember watching the first suicide squad at the cinema and legitimately didn't get what they were doing there, at first it seemed they were sent in to deal with enchantress, but then it was to rescue Waller, but then they do fight enchantress, and I still don't get why the justice league wasn't involved in fighting a threat capable of leveling the entirety of New York with ease
@@Axl4325 And hilariously, that's what the second Self-Unalive Team film does instead; these dorks are instead sent to go do a sneaky thing with plausible deniability if they eat shit in the process. And it's great!
I watched some gameplay videos of the Batman sections and ever since I’ve been obsessed with the idea of a survival horror game where you play as some no-name, street level thug trying to escape Arkham Asylum in the midst of a mass breakout while trying to avoid The Batman. Like Alien: Isolation or Amnesia but in a rundown insane asylum with a madman in a bat costume sneaking through the vents.
I remember Yahtz compared Saints Row 2 to a game where you play as a Batman villain. Why not take that concept and amp it up? Have all your goons in coloured/themed costumes. Pull off goofy heists, take out other silly themed gangs, like in the Warriors. And THEN you have a ‘totally not Batman’ hero who starts picking all of the criminals off. Leading to the aforementioned scenario;
I always recommend Grant Morrison’s Superman series as to why he’s only boring when written by unimaginative people. He’s great because he has no reason to care, but does. It’s sad that “sincerely good person trying to make things better” keeps being corrupted because it just shows a laziness of writing. There’s so many good superman stories, they just require a vulnerability and sincerity that triple A art undercuts at every turn.
I'm convinced that part of the reason why there are so many "Superman Turns Evil" stories is not to make him interesting, but to make everyone else (especially Batman) more awesome. One of the many reasons I hate the Injustice-verse is that not only does Superman act incredibly out of character, but the first major solution to the Superman problem is to give EVERYONE (to include Alfred of all people) powers equivalent to Superman so they can fight. It's transparent in its ridiculousness because it only serves as power fantasy for Batman and his characters, and has nothing to do with earnestly exploring the impacts of Superman actually being evil.
"I don't consider Superheroes to have a legacy worth preserving because they're just power fantasies for children." "I got really upset about Batman being killed off so unceremoniously because of how much time I spent with him in the Arkham franchise." I feel like you really gotta pick just one, here.
See the difference there is, he's referring to the passionate fans who've not just played the games, but also read the comics, watched the shows and movies (animated or otherwise) and basically made them ther whole lives. Meanwhile, Yahtzee's only going by his own experience with the plot and development of the past games he's played and reviewed leading up to this one. It's not hard to understand what he meant my man.
@@anthonydeadman I understand that he's basing his review off of his own perspective, and that's fine. That's why I tune in to his videos. But the problem is that he seemed to be looking down on longtime comic fans for demanding respect for the characters while wishing the game had respected Batman more. Like he doesn't realize that he actually agrees with the comic fans he's criticizing.
I guess it’s more about rocksteady ending their most beloved and critically acclaimed series by unceremoniously killing the main character in an awful live service game
@@mredbadger Yeah, I think the difference here is Batman as a general concept vs. Batman as a specific character in this specific continuity. I don't think Yahtzee would be upset about a standalone game killing off its own Batman unceremoniously (assuming it was also actually a good game). I do think the earlier comment is kinda flippant - there have been lots of good, bad, and meh Batmen - but I think that distinction is where he was coming from.
The older i get, the more i appreciate wholesome characters. After a few decades you start to realise that the people are few and far between, that have managed to drag themselves across this existence for any length of time with that quality intact. Villains with gritty backstories are two-a-penny and sulking in an eternal edging of losing ones humanity should be seen as the most basic of reactions towards dealing with...well, humanity. Give me someone that knows this place and its inhabitants and still remains intact, and I'll show you my list of questions about how on Earth they've managed to achieve this. Even superman had to be an outsider to be so sincere, which is kind of a tradgedy for us, no?
Fair. Characters that are both actually good and intelligent enough to do good are really, really fun. Some good ones I found are Keldorn from Baldur's Gate 2 and Shifu from Live A Live. Maybe Papyrus, even though that "intelligent" part is rather unclear. And obviously, Iroh from Avatar. It doesn't get better than that, I think.
hard agree. Someone who has been through the worst, seen the absolute worst and cruelest side of humanity, and says "no, I CHOOSE kindness" when given the choice to feed the addictive anger in their heart is my favorite kind of character. Characters who are good not because it's easy or convenient or their only option are so flat. I feel like megamind might fall into this by the end of the movie
Also, some of the most wholesome characters become the most compelling villains, the ones who genuinely believe they are doing good, but life and hardship have twisted their actions into something they don't even recognize. They personally are still wholesome in their own view.
So our hypothesis is that Rocksteady got their arm twisted behind their back to make something they didn't want, and intentionally made a bad one, a la _Redfall_ or _Matrix Resurrections_ ? I don't know. It seems like there's a lot of bad-to-mediocre in the AAA space, these days, regardless of the amount of time and money thrown at the products. "We made a bad product *ironically* " may just be the latest semi-plausible excuse for running out of juice.
I think it’s less intentional than the result of core people leaving Rocksteady long before the game finished. That though is the result of publisher interference.
I've never played one and don't care about them, but even I know there's some really good Lego games out there, and that the franchise at least sometimes seems to allow for immaginative concepts (I assume most Lego games aren't good, but there's so many of them). Among all long running game franchises it's probably the least surprising that the Lego games could pull of a good version.
@@Kaefer1973 On the contrary, the vast majority of licensed LEGO games ARE good because they don't take themselves seriously and allow for imaginative comedic situations. Take LEGO DC Super-villains for example. It takes this exact same concept(Well kind of, it's more the main universe DC villains fighting against the Crime Syndicate form Earth 3 ), makes it good, lets you create your own characters as a main part of the story(It's usually a side thing) and isn't afraid to be comedic, understands how the characters are supposed to act and doesn't do any edgy crap like shooting Batman in the head.
Accusing rocksteady of weapons weaponized incompetence hits especially hard when they have just dropped an update that functionaly just made the game impossible to play solo, and you haven't been able to play co op in 3 weeks because the connection to the servers is so bad that if you can connect its lagging.
Something that makes Superman interesting is the animated movie "Superman vs the Elite" since it focuses on the man behind Superman, Clark Kent. All good Superman stories focus on the humanity of Clark Kent over the godlike powers of Superman. Just look at "My Adventures With Superman."
Also Superman from The Animated Series and later Justice League & JL:Unlimited. The penultimate episode where he punches Darkseid so hard buildings shatter around him all while he talks about 'living in a world of cardboard' and even their version of Injustice "The Justice Lords" show how you can do both well. Lord Superman killed Luthor as a neccesity and then labotomised the rest of the Rogues Gallery all while doing it 'for the greater good'. Even seeing Joker with the holes in his head was creepy because he was still alive but completely castrated of his will. The final moments where our Superman collaborates with Lex to stop them and Lord Supes ready to kill Flash with a "What's one more?" showed how far he had gone since that first kill because Flash dying was the reason they went down that road.
@@seanmcloughlin5983this, essentially. I just don’t think Yahtzee likes superhero comics anymore, so he doesn’t bother. Which is fair, to a certain degree.
From watching some other review I remeber that the whole story is about first finding a magic/techological thimgamabob that will weaken or deactivate the bosses specific superpower to a level where the player actually has a chance against them.
nothing pulls me out of a fight faster than the knowledge that the boss could just end it with little to no warning or resistance but just doesn't because of "reasons"
@@bassgx1459 This is the most funny/egregious part about it. Not only do we know its possible for the Flash to kill someone in a million ways in a fraction of a second, but they actually show him doing things like that multiple times (Lex getting ripped out of his mech suit, getting his heart ripped out) so it just feels even more dumb when it doesnt happen to the squad. Like if he just never did anything like that at all, that would be stupid but consistent. This is stupid and inconsistent.
Superman is already an interesting character, he just needs good writers. Recent animated series My adventures with Superman pulled off really well. "Evil Superman" is so overused now that it became boring now.
He's not the most complicated, but that's ok. Not ever character has to be an amoral antihero with a complicated and tragic past. Sometimes an alien raised by farmers to be a good boy is a solid enough foundation for a character.
100%. It sucks that this narrative of "Superman is boring" gets pushed by so many people who've never given him a shot. A dude whose strong enough to take over the world but decides to use that power to help people is plenty interesting; but people miss the point so hard they just go to Omni-man or Homelander as "more realistic."
Lois & Clark and Superman the Animated Series proved he can be interesting decades ago. Pretty Warrior Sailor Superman is a good modern example, though.
Yup, Superman can be interesting, it's just that loads of writers aren't interested in telling those stories. He's theoretically simple, but it's the situations you put him in that can make that simplicity shine. Evil Superman meanwhile has kind of always been boring. Aside from like, the comic adaptation of Injustice, Evil Superman is usually just writers trying to shit on base Superman and lambast sincerity, goodness, kindness and aversion from killing. Plus Injustice Superman works because the normal Superman comes in and kicks his ass, being the ultimate capstone to the Evil Superman thesis.
Didn't expect this review to give me the old age thing, but Arkham City is (checks Google) 11-12 years old. And the Mr Freeze fight is still fondly remembered in that game.
With the lead rocksteady devs jumping ship maybe the burning down of the arkham universe is there way of saying "better blow it up before someone else gets there hands on it"
See, jumping from burning ship are typically done in covert manners that leaves few if any witnesses from identifying you. This is more like Rocksteady (and Warner bros to some extent) hijacking the entire communication to announce their plan of destroying the Statue of Liberty, actually doing that by nuking it, then they just don a ski-mask on the spot and pray no one would notice them like they're in Hitman games.
I think he's doing fine. There's plenty of other reviewers to kick them when they're new, not to mention the public dogpiling them. Just when the initial hate is starting to ease up and the game tries to slink away in shame, Yahtzee steps forward to deliver the killing blow.
Mr Freeze is Victor Fries Poison Ivy is Pamela Lillian Isley Scarecrow is Jonathan Crane, modeled after icabod crane from Sleepy Hallow It's classic comic book stuff
I feel like Harley Quinn deserves a special mention though, because both "Harley" and "Quinn" are names I've heard in real life. I have *never* heard of anyone with the names "Harleen" or "Quinzel" though.
Although Brainiac is one of my all-time favorite supervillains, this is the third game in the past ten years where he's the main villain. And just like in Lego Batman 3 and Injustice 2, it seems like the developers read the same comics about him bottling up cities and brainwashing their inhabitants. It's like how Yahtzee said "There is only one Aliens plot" which the poor creature is shackled onto in every media adaptation.
hell at least do one of his OTHER storylines, like the time he forcefully upgraded literally everything in metropolis to be a 'city of the future' type deal
I think the only rendition of Brainiac I like is from the Superman Animated Series. I preferred his design as an emotionless machine there a lot more than the usual bald green man look.
To be fair, Alien and Aliens had a different plot and feel, which both spawned games (shooters and Alien Isolation). So I would give that creature two plots.
@@davidgantenbein9362 Alien Isolation and Aliens: Fireteam Elite are the most faithful game adaptations of their respective films for sure! But when you consider how many other games, novels, and comics are all variations of "Evil corporation wants to harness Xenos for biowarfare but they breach lab containment" I could see where Yahtzee's coming from. There are a few exceptions, of course (the books DNA War, Phalanx, and Echo come to mind.)
I love that in the trailer that got people hyped for this game the flash mocks the idea of shooting him with a gun. Then you kill him by shooting him with guns.
So the plot is that the Justice League is being mind controlled by Brainiac so you have to kill them and then Brainiac. Why not just hit Brainiac first instead and save the hassle?
Braniac spends the whole game chilling in his Skull Ship, so they can't get to him. And the military does try attacking the ship, but they can't because Green Lantern and Superman are both guarding it.
@@fightingleaf Some Easter eggs and leaked audio lines suggest that the Justice League will be revived and cured in future content. Even if that is the case, it's probably too little, too late.
I just… nothing can compare to the disappointment I felt when I went from “holy shit, the Arkham devs are making a four player co-op Suicide Squad game?!?! The variety in combat, the bosses, the gadgets, this sounds mindblowingly amazing!!!” to “oh. Another Looter-Shooter Live Service. Fuck.”
YES and the team they choose could work perfectly for completely diffrent playstyles. Harley would be the middle of the road a al a Fighter class, deadshot the ranged dps a la wizard, king shark the tank a la paladin, and captain boomerang the trapper a la ranger/rogue. c'mon, this is cooperative multiplayer 101, different roles, not making everyone shooty shoots.
Yeah one of the games greatest sins, that I can tell, is it doesn’t seem to have any of its characters play significantly differently from any of the others. Just four people running around with the same guns
How did you not understand that the devs that made Arkham Asylum left during Cities development? Or was the Joker in Shit Knight did double duty by both helping you see stars and shoving a shit story up your arse? Or was it "Shadow of War" that gave you the compelling (read retarded) story of "Shadow of somehow less Mordor" I mean... what ever the fuck happened in that cash grab of a game?
Yea but.. he was turned evil by brianac so.... legal issues be damned! Also there was a moment in comics Batman used fear gas to incite fear upon his victims but that was a different person then Bruce. Wanna see a good evil batman thats mind controlled? Justice League Dark: Apokolips War.
he basically faked his death and went full time batman doing his best to make it seem like someone else taken up the mantle or something at the end. while using fear toxin to make it seem like everybody he takes down is just hallucinating that he's still around
They don't give a fuck. Making the Arkham series share the same universe with this trash pile is just a pathetic corporate attempt to appeal to as many people as possible. This is why I'll never consider this garbage to be the canon continuity.
It's a bit funny that Yahtz first mocks the thinkpieces that call out SS for shitting on Arkham's legacy, and later... calls out SS for shitting on Arkham's kegacy.
You can absolutely make Superman interesting. The Animated series and movies prove that. The problem is everyone is so obsessed with "Turn Superhero Evil" plotline, that we've lost all context as to Why were doing that. To the point that were just making Evil Super Hero's off the bat. (which make's you question why you should care about them because they're Already the Bad Guy's)
I don't think Bad guys can't be interesting characters you care about. It just qequires good writing, the same solution as to the "how to make Superman interesting?" question.
@@Kaefer1973 Should probably have been more specific. You can care about a Bad Guy, but the question you always need to as yourself is "Why should I care about them?". This logic can be applied to any character, but need's special attention to detail when handling Bad Guy's. If your going full on Evil Villain want's to Conquer/Destroy everything, ya don't need to care about them. They're a force of Nature. You can Understand them, but your never supposed to sympathize with them. That's why character's like Braniac work as a reoccurring villain. Hero's turned Villain however Need the context and understanding to work as character's. Outside of people who understand the DC universe, going into this game and just saying "Kill these guy's" without any context won't hit on any level. Your Darling's can't Be Darling's unless people understand Why. This is why the Marvel Movie's Worked (until recently) because they took time to build everything up. The suicide squad universe just want's you to know that these are the guy's your gonna kill, and your playing as a pack of villain's doing it. Which is just lazy story telling at every turn. I'm already hearing people ask why they should care about the people they're playing as, rather then the people they're killing. To that end I say, yeah, I'm not shocked. If you weren't a DC fan, this sure as hell ain't gonna convince people to become one.
@@Next0gen0 Another reason I find you stop caring when the super heroes are evil is because it reflects the world they live in. So why should I care about any of these characters when the world is so jaded and messed up that the folks representing our noblest qualities are evil?
Overly Sarcastic has a whole video in which they explain that "make Superman evil" misses the whole point of Superman. Namely, that he's so powerful he could be a god-king if he wanted to, but instead he cares. Arguably, the central concept of Invincible is that Mark is Superman, and his dad is what he could have been if he didn't have a conscience. Eventually Mark wins over his father from the Dark Side.
1. Fuck you for spoiling Invincible 2. Superman being a kind man instead of a god-king is one facet of his character, and not his whole character. Besides, turning that on its head by making him evil would still work as a subversion even if that was all there was to the character. We may be over saturated with evil Supermen, but it’s not an inherently flawed concept.
Oddly the least interesting version of Superman to me is the evil ones. There are plenty of ways to make Superman interesting it’s just that some writers are kinda lazy and fall back on evil Superman trope
I'll add my voice to the others disagreeing with the "Superman is only interesting when he's evil" idea. Superman can be plenty interesting when he's actually written as a person, and not just a powerset.
Yeah, explore what constant need to be paragon does to a person or on gameplay side, how to integrate a practically invincible character while still maintaining challenge like how to beat baddies while keeping the preventing or minimizing property and human casualties. Or make his personal relation as the central part of the story, like needing to balance his civilian guise and superhero activities, his powerset more or less made many superheroes redundant and what effect it'll do to their relationship dynamics. Or just say to hell with superman on Earth and have him fight exclusively against supervillain on his level or at the very least capable of hurting him.
Humanizing *insert thing here* is storytelling 101 for making the audience care about *insert thing here*, which is merely pointing out that this isn’t really a “superman” issue, and the question isn’t really “is superman himself inherently interesting or uninteresting.” It’s also probably worth pointing out that Yahtzee is not a universal fountain of truth, and what any of us find interesting inevitably evolves as we age, learn, consume more stories, and encounter stuff we’ve seen before. I used to be obsessed with anime, but traditional anime story arcs and character tropes I now find tedious (to my dismay).
Happy Fuck You February, everyone. Even in this increasingly polarised world, every once in a while we can all unite, with one voice, and come up with scathing burns for an algorithmically generated entertainment product that had the gall to exist.
Fuck You February has become a tradition. Anthem came out in February, and we all know how well that game turned out. "The thing we hate of the week..."
@@mangamaster03Except some things aren't simply hated and forgotten. Remember all that cope about how people would come to like _The Last Jedi_ over time, and instead it was so heinous it launched a thousand RUclips careers? The fact that _this_ was the last thing Kevin Conroy ever did (much like how TLJ was the last thing Carrie Fisher ever did) is the kind of offense that earns _dwarven_ grudges.
Happy Fuck You February to you too. … and I‘m pretty sure the industry will be more than ready to deliver an equally bad games as a service by next February again.
The "weaponised incompetence" point might actually hold some merit, especially given that leaked audio files have confirmed the Justice League will be resurrected in the seasonal content. Quick Rocksteady, wipe this game from the canon with Flash time travel shenanigans then give us our damn Justice League game! Or even another Suicide Squad game, but one inspired by XCOM where we can blow up the heads of big-name villains and randomly generated schmuck villains alike! It's honestly painfully obvious that Rocksteady didn't want to make this shit. Especially since WB games just made almost all the exact same mistakes with Gotham Knights. Someone at the top of WB who knows nothing about video games is just determined that a live service game will make him a trillionaire. Thankfully James Gunn is now in charge of DC (including video games), he's a gamer and a huge fan of the Arkham and KOTOR games. So hopefully he can steer them in the right direction.
With an xcom base you don't even need to fight with supers. Missions just need story reasonable objectives assasinate, theft, defend. Stuff with stock groups. Even could start players with d-listers and earn our way to deadshot and Harley. Or ...ugh... random Summons for recruitment pools.
There's another point of note. DC and the Warner Brothers has historically been tight-fisted with Superman to the point where any interesting concept is denied quickly. That actually explains why anything Superman underwhelms (Titus' N64 Superman game being a major blight) and why Batman is preferred for more meatier superhero stories.
I disagree that Superman is only interesting if he's evil, but the rest of this review is 100% spot on. It's an embarrassment to Rocksteady and the Arkham series. I'm so glad to see Yahtzee tear this game a new one.
Honestly, yeah. Superman's only boring when he's used as a battering ram to deal with the current baddy of the week. I think where Superman actually shines is when he's *not* using his powers. Giving him moral quandaries and opportunities to show that despite being an alien he's probably the most human superhero to exist is where he shines IMO.
tto be fair My Adventures With Superman was a breath of fresh air for the character. once the writing is good and he has a good foil in Lois, he is actually a fun character to explore
I think Yahtzee was being seriously disingenuous about Superman only being interesting if he’s evil I find a shy kind man who happens to have the powers of a god way more interesting than all powerful space tyrant 57 The former has contrast and is a lot less pessimistic
Making Superman evil isn't how you make him interesting. You make him interesting by exploring his humanity, and his relationship to those he protects.
Or to put it differently, you make him interesting the same way you make every other character interesting as well. The question how well they can handle themselves in a fight never made any character either interesting or boring.
@@leithaziz2716 I don't like Daria for the same reasons as I don't like poorly executed evil Superman stories, nihilism and cynicism is easy. Too easy.
@@andrewlassen7430there’s a great Superman story that was turned into a movie “Superman Vs the Elite” where Superman basically fights the Boys, they don’t care about not killing, they don’t care about civilian casualties, they just care about looking cool. And Superman rightly points out with their amazing powers they could do so much more, but their power made them cynical, and that cynicism made them lazy Theres always a way to avoid deaths, he knows, he famously lives in a world made of cardboard, but if you don’t care about anyone but yourself, why bother being creative when you can just blow a hole through the bad guys.
@@seanmcloughlin5983 Trivia: The Elite were based on "The Authority", a Wildstorm series with the premise of "ruthless heroes put themselves up as a higher authority and start being a factor in world politics". Seriously, if you read it, the inspiration is very obvious. Then again, the Authority also beat up obvious expies of the Avengers in their third big arc, so turnabout is fair play.
“Superman is evil” is honestly the laziest thing you can do with the character “Superman despite his incredible power still being a kid from Smallville who’s biggest muscle is his heart.” Is more interesting I find because it’s less cynical Oooo if a person had that kind of power they’d be an insane tyrant Oooor, they’d just want to help people even more
"Superman is boring" is the perfect way to spot a tourist. They always think it's the most edgy/subversive premise. These days the subversive thing to do would be to make Superman like he was in the Christopher Reeves movies and the cartoons: a good dude who does the right thing because it's the right thing.
I would follow up with bringing up the 1990s animated series and its successor, Justice League (and Justice League Unlimited, the continued seasons/sequel). Clark is a bit more snarky, and his past mistakes and battles have affected him in the JL era, pushing him to be more prone to distrust and anger, particularly around Lex Luthor and Darkseid. That animated universe even explores the "evil Superman" concept a couple of times. But in the end, Superman is shown as a guy just trying to do the right thing, one who isn't afraid to ask for some help.
"Superman is only interesting when he's evil" if you suck as a writer and have the imagination of dry cement. Which to be fair tracks with Kill the Justice League
Showing the image of Invincible when saying nobody respects superheroes anymore is wildly funny to me because Invincible is probably the one series in this day and age that has enough love for the genre to reconstruct it after deconstructing it.
I'd say, Superman is at his most interesting when his moral compass gets shaken up. He's unflinchingly good, always taking the high ground, and never faltering. However, in a complicated world where things aren't always conveniently sorted into Good and Evil, his staunch commitment to "Doing what's right, no matter what" can lead him to go too far, when forced to choose the lesser of two evils. One's he's picked one of them as "the right choice" he'll go after it with zeal, and that can be dangerous. Simply making him evil however, takes the Superman out of Superman.
Funny thing about the ending bit, how could Rocksteady go back to the Arkham gameplay when the two co-founders, and I believe every single member of the dev team from those games, left two years ago? There ain't very many people left over there
@@chikkin.salad.sandwich That cartoon had audience averages comparable to Ninja Kamui and Demon Slayer. A lot of people gave a shit and you do as well when you feel the need to lie about its success to try and bring it down for whatever reason.
Also points at Invincible (the plot isn't "evil superman", it's "Superman's dad is evil"). Mark is a good person who wants to save lives and struggles with his secret identity.
This entire game feels like a massive tug-of-war between Rocksteady trying to make something at least interesting, and WB being WB and thus WB'ing it all up.
I cannot overemphasize how much I appreciate the opening notes of these videos not being the loudest thing in the universe while still retaining the exact same vibes as opening theme 1.0 Short lived nostalgia and all that but my sensory issues were being assaulted constantly, truly making the watching experience like that of the cross For YOU yahtz
Reminds me of how Diablo 4's devs said that if players started to burn out from the game or got bored that they should just take a break and play something else. You know something has gone wrong when you have to tell your players to play something else.
The worst part is that I could think of an infinite number of ways of having the plot be “fight the good guys”: Alternate Earth Justice League like in the episode “A Better World” Alternate Earth Justice League like in the game “Lego DC Super Villains” Mind control the Justice League but don’t kill then b/c they are too valuable like “Lego Batman 3 Beyond Gotham” Have them be D-List superheroes And Hawkman D-List superheroes who were mind controlled by Braniac D-List superheroes who were mind controlled by Starro Or better yet DONT ASSASSINATE ANY BELOVED CHARACTERS SO YOU CAN USE THEM LATER AND GUN SOMEBODY LIKE MONGUL LIKE IN “THE SUICIDE SQUAD”!! Seriously, they thought that killing their Earth’s Justice League was the more interesting option because it was the edgy option!
or hell just have you be the villains sent to murder the jsuice league because amanda waller's a corrupt night templar who wants the jusitce league dead out of paranoia.
Or go justice league unlimited season one finally with robo league imposters. The ones with brainiac. If live service required each season is an updated models. Have them fight 3 simulaneus batmen.
@@sarafontanini7051 That’s a great idea! It has the potential of developing into deeper themes. Though, I have always viewed Waller as a controlling woman that doesn’t trust vigilantes, no matter how virtuous or controlled they are. Giving the themes of oppression, freedom, and the short sightedness of people like her.
Yeah I was reeeeally hoping these weren’t the League, but the Crime Syndicate in disguise. Would have been a fun plot reveal of the squad grabbing one of the heroes’ weaknesses and finding out mid-battle it’s not working on them. “Alright we got the kryptoni-wait WHY IS HE GETTING STRONGER?!?”
Dam. My main defense of this game was “Now your gonna feel what it’s ljke when Batman takes you down one by one!” And they DID do that, which is good, but it’s not even his main boss fight. Could of been epic, rocksteady….
2:00 "Turning Superman evil is the only way to make him interesting". Tell me you've never seen *any* good Superman story without telling you've ever read a good Superman story. God, I'm sick of cynical takes like that.
If I know anything about ecelebs, the sponsorships do nothing except drive critical people away from the product. I know that Incogni's services are just filing 3-year deletion requests to data suppliers, which one can do themselves with time, patience and proof that you are the person filing for data removal.
For the first time in...many moons, it's an advert for a product I actually a) had never heard of and b) think is a bloody brilliant idea. Yes, and Yahtzee actually says it, you could send requests yourself to everyone e harvesting your data but c) you'd have to find out who they are and d) then fill in a request for each one and then e) follow up any requests that aren't answered after the legislated time. If this company actually does all of that, and it's worth it (nessecity/price) for you, I can't see any reason why you wouldn't sign up for it. f) I don't work for incogni.
@@Code7Unltd Yeah but that's kind of the point, isn't it? Incogni is selling the convenience of not having to invest said time and patience into it. "Pay someone to do a boring, tedious thing for you" is the whole idea of paid services like this. Car washes exist not because people CAN'T wash their own cars, but because they don't WANT to.
The "Problem telling stories with Superman" is such a contrived BS idea. He has a dozen plus villians in his own rogue gallery who can go toe to toe with him in a fight if you want just a basic "Superhero vs a challenging to defeat villain". And that's not even including the hundreds of other DC characters who could challenge him if you somehow wanted to do that. Likewise people seem to think "We can't have a good-guy who is like a really -really- good guy as a main character anymore, Everyone has to be flawed/sad/dramatic." It's the ole "Everyone has to be like Batman to tell stories" When the truth is Batman works in part because you have the superman type stories to view as a contrast! Somehow Hollywood just decided that "Superman is imposible to turn into a movie/video game/etc" when you need only look at the literal decades of comicbook stories that have done so quite successfully for inspiration. Can't have that thought can we!...ugh. I am -hoping- Gunn can do better. If he really is gonna use "All Star Superman" as a template/concept to pull from then he might very well finally prove my long term views as above right. Here's hoping.
Mm. Superman always had his own genre flavour which contrast and complemented Batman's own. Making him just as moody as the latter in the DCEU made no sense.
ive been watching Yazthee for something lile 15 years at this point. I always enjoy his work, but genuinely laughing out loud is something long since past. However, "Suicide Squad: Kill me and end my disease of a life you remorseless bastards" absolutely killed me. 10/10 would die again.
The concept of experiencing a Batman predator mission from the perspective of the goons is such a good idea I’m insulted it’s in this game. Imagine if you had to beat Batman by faking him out with quick double backs, placing grenades in the air-ducts and strategically removing gargoyles to herd him to one area you can get at him.
It's not "Batman's legacy" that people felt was being spat on. It's Kevin Conroy's legacy as this was his final big outing. Also, "Superman is only interesting when he's evil" are the words of someone who is clearly not a Superman fan. Stories about Superman coming to terms with his legacy, or trying to understand the limit of how far Superman can help or take action are great. And then there was the Tomasi Rebirth run where he had a son and actually dealt with being a parent. Not a one off gimmick either, it was the whole Tomasi run.
I don’t care that they killed Batman in a soulless cash grab, I care that they crapped on Kevin Conroy. Had it been some self contained universe that didn’t use Conroy’s voice or try to force continuity with his role in the Arkham games, then I would just shrug and move on. But no, they couldn’t have even a little respect for a well-liked actor’s legacy who by all accounts was a pretty upstanding guy.
"Make superman evil is the only way to make him interesting." No, that's just the only way to make him interesting if you don't know how to write compelling characters, or be creative enough with the plots to find way to challenge Superman on grounds other than his physical prowess. Which is why the hacks that write for DC think making Superman evil is the only way to make him interesting.
As always, the TV shows do great with the character and the films just can't. I think there's some tier you pass where the idea of "powerful but genuinely kind and good" just... breaks in your mind? Good Superman writing is about hard choices, second chances, the vulnerability of loving people who are far more fragile than you, and the "power fantasy" (if we have to cal lit that) of "what if all the horrible people and governments and terrorists and zealots and warmongers and racists and antisemites finally ran into *one guy*, just *one guy* who could actually tell them NO and couldn't be assassinated or steamrolled out of their way?"
In a weird way I'm actually not surprised Yahtzee has this take. Generally speaking it seems like those who prefer evil Supes are the types that wear their resentment on their sleeve. If they were in Clark's shoes they wouldn't hesitate to destroy because that's just how they feel about the world. I don't want to lean too hard in this psycho-analysis angle but it's the only way I can really make sense of it.
In fairness, it's hard to write in that sort of development environment. They probably didn't even hire a writer until they were months away from launch. Having writing at all is merely an afterthought, a crutch meant to stitch together more important elements like levels, visuals and gameplay mechanics.
A few weeks ago I watched a 5 hour RUclips video of all the cutscenes in the game, including banter lines while in the open world. And it wasn't nearly as bad as I expected, not great but defiently not awful (the cargo crate scene was particularly well done) but yeah, it showed very little of the actual gameplay which probably says a lot that removing that makes me feel positive about it
Side note - I hate that articles these days will say "Everyone" is saying something just because it was posted on Twitter or Reddit, like the 1st headline at 0:39
You gotta hold out hope Rocksteady really are feigning incompetence so no one asks them to make something like this again, but they're gonna have to get creative with the retcon considering this has been stapled onto the Arkhamverse. Like "we said it was Arkhamverse but never WHICH Arkhamverse, aha!", or they start the next real Arkham game with Harley waking up and going "what a crazy dream... I should do that", and then some side plot is her trying to gather people together to make a suicide squad and jamming bombs in their necks, and it goes tits up and out of hand and batman has to stop her or summut.
I mean is that really still a controversial thing to say? Like at this point almost everyone that I have seen discussing anything related to him agrees on this.
yahtzee's said his stance on superhero stuff a lot of times when reviewing superhero games that he thinks they're all just power fantasies for little boys and that superman is inherently boring he's basically on the pretend hipster side of things when it comes to superheroes where you think you're being different but there's actually still tons of people who think exactly the same on this he has said before "superman is an utterly bland character" years ago but not everyone's watched all his videos so eh
When faced against four of the most powerful brainwashed heroes in the League, the only solution is to just hit them with more dakka. That's it. Just dakka and more dakka. And wait, where is the rest of the League? Where is Aquaman or Cyborg or Martain Manhunter or Green Arrow or, hell, where is Doctor Fate or Zatanna? It's just four specific heroes... and Wonder Woman.
Rocksteady is like that father figure you adored as a child who left to get milk for some reason, only to come back years later, late into your adulthood as a drunk crack addicted asshole who asks you for money because you and him -are- were _"family"_
We can sit around all day talking about how 'interesting' default Superman is or isn't. I'm personally of the opinion that the Blue Boyscout is actually really compelling, but surely something we can *all* agree on is that making Supes evil IS the most boring thing you can do with him. A core component of what does, or at least can make Superman interesting to read about is the contrast between the great power that he wields and the restraint he has to exercise at all times, physically and emotionally so as to not have that power escaping his control. A Superman that doesn't care about holding back and just does whatever he wants to whoever he wants and whenever he wants is just.....I mean you might as well go write about Darkseid or Lux Luthor, you're halfway there already.
Now I'm not saying Injustice as a WHOLE is good but the early parts with Superman slowly letting go of that restraint as he's being pushed over the edge could've been a really good look into the character
I think the real reason evil superman is interesting is that the more evil he goes the less evil the megamillion company and lazy author looks. All with minimal character interactions.
That argument about how it's not disrespecting Batman as a character or Kevin Conroy as an actor, but actually disrespecting previous game continuity is a REALLY good way to look at it. Like to use a relevant example from a game you didn't like that was announced today, when you fight the Demi-Fiend in Shin Megami Tensei V, they acknowledge that when you fight a previous protagonist, it better be good!
I love the part where the '''''''''''game''''''''''' thanks Kevin Conroy.... And then immediately gives you a loot box with a weapon called Mysterious illness.
I assume the articles about how Self-Unalive Squad is unfair to Batman has more to do with Rocksteady basically creating the gold standard third person combat game much like Symphony of the Night made Metroidvanias, and then making this. Just the same shtick that happened with Arkane Studios: "your company is known for being GREAT at making X but Y is kinda popular now so make a Y game and have it out just in time for Y to no longer be popular."
"superman turning evil is the only way to make him interesting" takes from people who don't read comics are why so many executive ghouls in both film and videogames keep insisting on "superman is evil now" stories and, controversial take, those are extremely boring and exist primarily to pander to people who have the preconceived notion that you can't tell stories with good boy superman and therefore refuse to engage with media that features him. the dumb suicide squad game is the logical conclusion of that market reality tbh.
The implication that the mentality of jaded people like Yahtzee are what causes these edgy stories to exist in the first place is hugely entertaining for me.
Correction: turning Superman evil is the only interesting thing you can do with him… if you’re current studios and incapable of actually understanding what makes Superman Superman.
I've had this attitude for a while, but well done advertisements are not unwelcome. What I hate are advertisements that A. don't appreciate who the viewers actually are and what they'll realistically want, are B. uninteresting and made with either little effort, or made to fit a specific script to the point that it takes away all creative freedome from the channel making it, and C. advertisements that don't respect my time as a viewer, they have to be somewhat interesting and not utterly irrelevant.
the saddest part about this is this apparently has a tribute to kevin conroy, the most iconic voice of batman for many and the one who voiced him inthe aarkham games. (i think this was also his final role, voicing batman for this game but i could be wrong about that) meaning this game not only shat on the legacy of a gaming franchise, but also the legacy of a real life actor who died.
Turning Superman evil is at this point *less* interesting than literally anything else they could possibly do with him, pretty sure you just don't like Superman
I find it funny that Yahtzee starts the review making fun of other outlets complaining about how this game disrespects the legacy of some of these characters, then at 4:17 complains about how the game disrespects the legacy of the Arkham Knight Batman.
I think it's more because he was just completely disappointed by the boss fight itself. He knew he'd be killing ManBat but not as a ridiculous DeadSpace-looking final boss
I suppose the difference is that in this case they're disrespecting their own media, instead of someone else's. Or maybe he's a hypocrite, who knows? I'm not dying on this hill.
Well, of course it would disrespect Arkham Knight... they were all done by Rocksteady. Superhero 'legacies' are a fallacy held up by fanboys who want to read the same story over and over again.
He isn’t really going after disrespect there, more about them building up the fight and not delivering anything worthwhile. In the same vain as the game is officially part of the Arkhamverse, but doesn’t deliver on any of the associated expectations. The Justice League on the other hand hasn’t been part of the Arkhamverse before in any capacity and hasn’t been built up by Rocksteady to be anything but bad cardboard cutouts for shooting practice.
I didn't find Superman to be interesting at all when he became evil. All he did was crack a couple of jokes till he died from all the bullet wounds. In fact, every brainwashed JL member did that except for batman. The way I see it is this game is just a really bad Borderlands game.
I will be honest.. I expected Yahtzee to know better than to think that Superman is boring. Like... consume any piece of media about him that isn't a Hollywood movie. He is literally a comic book character, read at least one famous comic about him or something. There's been tons of interesting stuff done with him and his better comics all show what interesting scenarios you can create with a virtually allpowerful, seemingly pure hearted hero.
I always questioned why you'd want to make an entire game about killing beloved superheroes And... Then the game didn't really have an answer for this and it was sorta awkward and ghoulish but not in a funny or even serious way. "Yup The Flash is dead. Please clap."
![Digital Circus Episode 4 [TRAILER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/abZtsmMUbJo/mqdefault.jpg)
Shockingly Harleen quinzel isn't even the most egregious superwhatever name, my favourite is a guy called "blackbolt" whose real name is "Blackagar Boltagon"
hahaha you're right I haven't heard that one before but it's definitely the worst
I categorically refuse to believe that is real! I know it is but I refuse to believe it anyway!
To be fair, Harley Quinn was originally invented as a single episode sidekick character for the Joker in Batman the Animated Series. They only retroactively added more backstory to her character after she became a fan favorite.
Another golden one is in Warhammer 40K. The Ultramarines from the planet Ultramar, lol
Imagine if Superman's naming scheme was like that lol
"Go forth my child: Supernous Manous"
This game did the impossible: made Arkham City fans and Arkham Knight fans agree on something
Arkham Origin fans: * sip wine * * helps the other two kick Suicide Squad *
@@MegaChickenfish Origin fans: Best Batman characterisation and Boss Battles enjoyers.
It did also have my favorite writing of the games, but that's a personal opinion of mine.
@@leithaziz2716 Amateurs every Arkham is a masterpiece
I am still of the opinion that Asylum is best with an unmatched atmosphere
Arkham Knight has people who not only liked it about as much, but actually prefer it?
City for me. Origins was pretty good, but I was there more for a story I didn't already know the end of.
It’s not that “Superman-Turns-Evil” is the only way to make him interesting, it’s more that “Superman-Turns-Evil” seems to be the is the only plot that massive, committee-designed corporate moneypits of this caliber will approve of.
The old comics industry chestnut of “we can only do cool and interesting ideas if it’s a small project and the bosses don’t know/don’t care” seems to follow superheroes into movies and now games as well
Given the amount of (quite correct, but still) comments to the tune of "Superman can be interesting without turning evil", I'm almost kinda sorta thinking maybe Yahtzee might have tossed that one in there to bait Engagement.
It's the same chestnut that led to things like Watchmen, Suicide Squad, Outsiders, or Exiles thing, isn't it? You can do a lot with characters that aren't under lock & key or constant resets.
At this point, a good moral Superman is the subversive thing. I am so sick of evil superman...
It’s something the not fans say, similar to „Batman should kill the Joker“. Neither evil Superman nor Killer Batman are a thing with the fans of these characters. Both ideas are just there to interest the people that were never interested in Superman and Batman to begin with.
Yeah, Superman can be interesting without turning evil, but it typically involves death (often his own).
I love that the game jumps right into "kill the Justice League" instead of "kill the one guy who's hypnotizing the Justice League, because obviously killing off all of our heroes is a really bad idea".
they're definitely gonna be reviving the justice league in future season
My guess is that they wanted to be edgy in the style of the old „Deadpool kills the Marvel heroes“ comic book.
If it would be actually funny and distinctively not bound to the Arkhamverse, there could be even some room for that. But the bad gameplay kills it anyway.
@@ElvenRaptor he said season… but you are right
@@davidgantenbein9362 Edgy isn't as cool when it's mainstream
@@ElvenRaptor
They will try, and my gut says that the justification will be "You've all been stuck in a Brainiac simulation this whole time lol, the Justice League actually took care of Brainiac while you were soiling yourselves in a coma"
I remember reading on TV Tropes where someone pointed out that one of the main problems with the 2016 Suicide Squad was its villain Enchantress, who clashed so hard tonally with the movie's otherwise down-to-earth premise, that watching the titular squad fight her was akin to watching the Dirty Dozen fight Rita Repulsa.
I get the feeling some of the game's writers looked at that and went "we can do even worse".
Watching Superman get gunned down by a bunch of jobbers that Batman could take out in his sleep was beyond surreal...and then there was Batman's ignominius end at the hands of Harley who had the gall to accuse HIM of inflicting emotional and psychological damage on his enemies. Not even Garth Ennis could write something so vile.
The villainess was a problem. But imo the basic b plot written for a standard superhero movie was also a problem. The Suicide Squad isn’t a superhero team and the movie wasn’t written to take that into account. Instead we got some really weak superhero movie, where they even have a moment of making up their mind to save the world. Nobody had the guts to write them as villains, hell Deadshot became an anti-hero and poor father to just farm some „but he isn’t really evil“ points. I hate it, when actors like Will Smith get hired for the role of a villain and the story gets rewritten to make them look less like a villain.
Oddly enough, Ennis quite likes Superman, and has had him make some very good guest appearances when he's doing DC stuff.
@@davidgantenbein9362 I think it would have worked best as a "black ops" type deal. The Suicide Squad are sent in to deal with a threat that either the government doesn't want to involve heroes in, or that they're using the main cast as a reconnaissance force before the actual heroes jump in but they end up saving the day after they lose communication or the time is running out, all of this being covered up by Amanda Waller and her agents. I remember watching the first suicide squad at the cinema and legitimately didn't get what they were doing there, at first it seemed they were sent in to deal with enchantress, but then it was to rescue Waller, but then they do fight enchantress, and I still don't get why the justice league wasn't involved in fighting a threat capable of leveling the entirety of New York with ease
@@Axl4325 And hilariously, that's what the second Self-Unalive Team film does instead; these dorks are instead sent to go do a sneaky thing with plausible deniability if they eat shit in the process. And it's great!
@@davidgantenbein9362 Wouldn't surprise me if not looking a villain is a part of all Will Smith's contracts.
I watched some gameplay videos of the Batman sections and ever since I’ve been obsessed with the idea of a survival horror game where you play as some no-name, street level thug trying to escape Arkham Asylum in the midst of a mass breakout while trying to avoid The Batman. Like Alien: Isolation or Amnesia but in a rundown insane asylum with a madman in a bat costume sneaking through the vents.
Add in the a-listers wiping out areas and I think you got something.
Something unique and interesting??? In MY quadruple-A gaming industry?!?! How do I call 911 on you?
Sounds a lot better than what we got.
I remember Yahtz compared Saints Row 2 to a game where you play as a Batman villain.
Why not take that concept and amp it up? Have all your goons in coloured/themed costumes. Pull off goofy heists, take out other silly themed gangs, like in the Warriors.
And THEN you have a ‘totally not Batman’ hero who starts picking all of the criminals off. Leading to the aforementioned scenario;
THAT WOULD BE SO COOL
I always recommend Grant Morrison’s Superman series as to why he’s only boring when written by unimaginative people. He’s great because he has no reason to care, but does. It’s sad that “sincerely good person trying to make things better” keeps being corrupted because it just shows a laziness of writing. There’s so many good superman stories, they just require a vulnerability and sincerity that triple A art undercuts at every turn.
Yes if Superman was boring he would have been forgotten
I'm convinced that part of the reason why there are so many "Superman Turns Evil" stories is not to make him interesting, but to make everyone else (especially Batman) more awesome.
One of the many reasons I hate the Injustice-verse is that not only does Superman act incredibly out of character, but the first major solution to the Superman problem is to give EVERYONE (to include Alfred of all people) powers equivalent to Superman so they can fight. It's transparent in its ridiculousness because it only serves as power fantasy for Batman and his characters, and has nothing to do with earnestly exploring the impacts of Superman actually being evil.
"I don't consider Superheroes to have a legacy worth preserving because they're just power fantasies for children." "I got really upset about Batman being killed off so unceremoniously because of how much time I spent with him in the Arkham franchise." I feel like you really gotta pick just one, here.
See the difference there is, he's referring to the passionate fans who've not just played the games, but also read the comics, watched the shows and movies (animated or otherwise) and basically made them ther whole lives.
Meanwhile, Yahtzee's only going by his own experience with the plot and development of the past games he's played and reviewed leading up to this one.
It's not hard to understand what he meant my man.
@@anthonydeadman I understand that he's basing his review off of his own perspective, and that's fine. That's why I tune in to his videos.
But the problem is that he seemed to be looking down on longtime comic fans for demanding respect for the characters while wishing the game had respected Batman more. Like he doesn't realize that he actually agrees with the comic fans he's criticizing.
@@MrThirtyH Agreed, I got whiplash when I heard that part
I guess it’s more about rocksteady ending their most beloved and critically acclaimed series by unceremoniously killing the main character in an awful live service game
@@mredbadger Yeah, I think the difference here is Batman as a general concept vs. Batman as a specific character in this specific continuity. I don't think Yahtzee would be upset about a standalone game killing off its own Batman unceremoniously (assuming it was also actually a good game). I do think the earlier comment is kinda flippant - there have been lots of good, bad, and meh Batmen - but I think that distinction is where he was coming from.
The older i get, the more i appreciate wholesome characters. After a few decades you start to realise that the people are few and far between, that have managed to drag themselves across this existence for any length of time with that quality intact.
Villains with gritty backstories are two-a-penny and sulking in an eternal edging of losing ones humanity should be seen as the most basic of reactions towards dealing with...well, humanity.
Give me someone that knows this place and its inhabitants and still remains intact, and I'll show you my list of questions about how on Earth they've managed to achieve this. Even superman had to be an outsider to be so sincere, which is kind of a tradgedy for us, no?
Fair. Characters that are both actually good and intelligent enough to do good are really, really fun. Some good ones I found are Keldorn from Baldur's Gate 2 and Shifu from Live A Live. Maybe Papyrus, even though that "intelligent" part is rather unclear.
And obviously, Iroh from Avatar. It doesn't get better than that, I think.
hard agree. Someone who has been through the worst, seen the absolute worst and cruelest side of humanity, and says "no, I CHOOSE kindness" when given the choice to feed the addictive anger in their heart is my favorite kind of character. Characters who are good not because it's easy or convenient or their only option are so flat. I feel like megamind might fall into this by the end of the movie
Also, some of the most wholesome characters become the most compelling villains, the ones who genuinely believe they are doing good, but life and hardship have twisted their actions into something they don't even recognize. They personally are still wholesome in their own view.
So our hypothesis is that Rocksteady got their arm twisted behind their back to make something they didn't want, and intentionally made a bad one, a la _Redfall_ or _Matrix Resurrections_ ? I don't know. It seems like there's a lot of bad-to-mediocre in the AAA space, these days, regardless of the amount of time and money thrown at the products. "We made a bad product *ironically* " may just be the latest semi-plausible excuse for running out of juice.
I think it’s less intentional than the result of core people leaving Rocksteady long before the game finished. That though is the result of publisher interference.
You know, it's amazing when a friggin LEGO game took this exact same concept but made it GOOD years ago
I've never played one and don't care about them, but even I know there's some really good Lego games out there, and that the franchise at least sometimes seems to allow for immaginative concepts (I assume most Lego games aren't good, but there's so many of them). Among all long running game franchises it's probably the least surprising that the Lego games could pull of a good version.
@@Kaefer1973 On the contrary, the vast majority of licensed LEGO games ARE good because they don't take themselves seriously and allow for imaginative comedic situations. Take LEGO DC Super-villains for example. It takes this exact same concept(Well kind of, it's more the main universe DC villains fighting against the Crime Syndicate form Earth 3 ), makes it good, lets you create your own characters as a main part of the story(It's usually a side thing) and isn't afraid to be comedic, understands how the characters are supposed to act and doesn't do any edgy crap like shooting Batman in the head.
Accusing rocksteady of weapons weaponized incompetence hits especially hard when they have just dropped an update that functionaly just made the game impossible to play solo, and you haven't been able to play co op in 3 weeks because the connection to the servers is so bad that if you can connect its lagging.
Something that makes Superman interesting is the animated movie "Superman vs the Elite" since it focuses on the man behind Superman, Clark Kent. All good Superman stories focus on the humanity of Clark Kent over the godlike powers of Superman. Just look at "My Adventures With Superman."
Also Superman from The Animated Series and later Justice League & JL:Unlimited. The penultimate episode where he punches Darkseid so hard buildings shatter around him all while he talks about 'living in a world of cardboard' and even their version of Injustice "The Justice Lords" show how you can do both well. Lord Superman killed Luthor as a neccesity and then labotomised the rest of the Rogues Gallery all while doing it 'for the greater good'. Even seeing Joker with the holes in his head was creepy because he was still alive but completely castrated of his will.
The final moments where our Superman collaborates with Lex to stop them and Lord Supes ready to kill Flash with a "What's one more?" showed how far he had gone since that first kill because Flash dying was the reason they went down that road.
Good choice, liked that story.
I think Yahtzee just doesn’t like the genre so can be seriously dismissive of it out of ignorance.
@@seanmcloughlin5983yet somehow less dismissive than the production companies.
@@seanmcloughlin5983this, essentially. I just don’t think Yahtzee likes superhero comics anymore, so he doesn’t bother. Which is fair, to a certain degree.
I respectfully disagree with the "Superman is only interesting when he's evil" bit, but still glad to see the game get some extra stomps on it.
Imo, Superman is at his most interesting when he's Clark Kent. All my favorite stories are about him trying to be human
Superman creeps the shit out of me, so it's kinda true...
@@Zaxophone32Smallville was great.
@@dihyaneverforget5163 but why though?
@@mason-greylong4792 as a kid a felt like he's going to snap at any second and rips someone in half
I sure love that the bosses can so easily defeat the four main characters, but are content to just not do that, and not go all out against you.
Like how the flash can remove all of your clothing in a second but doesn't just like snap your neck.
From watching some other review I remeber that the whole story is about first finding a magic/techological thimgamabob that will weaken or deactivate the bosses specific superpower to a level where the player actually has a chance against them.
nothing pulls me out of a fight faster than the knowledge that the boss could just end it with little to no warning or resistance but just doesn't because of "reasons"
The Flash was showed ripping Luthor's heart out, killing him instantly.
What did he do against the SQ? Just randomly spammed tornados.
@@bassgx1459 This is the most funny/egregious part about it. Not only do we know its possible for the Flash to kill someone in a million ways in a fraction of a second, but they actually show him doing things like that multiple times (Lex getting ripped out of his mech suit, getting his heart ripped out) so it just feels even more dumb when it doesnt happen to the squad.
Like if he just never did anything like that at all, that would be stupid but consistent. This is stupid and inconsistent.
Superman is already an interesting character, he just needs good writers. Recent animated series My adventures with Superman pulled off really well.
"Evil Superman" is so overused now that it became boring now.
He's not the most complicated, but that's ok. Not ever character has to be an amoral antihero with a complicated and tragic past. Sometimes an alien raised by farmers to be a good boy is a solid enough foundation for a character.
As a big fan of MAWS, I'm glad somebody else brought this up
100%. It sucks that this narrative of "Superman is boring" gets pushed by so many people who've never given him a shot. A dude whose strong enough to take over the world but decides to use that power to help people is plenty interesting; but people miss the point so hard they just go to Omni-man or Homelander as "more realistic."
Lois & Clark and Superman the Animated Series proved he can be interesting decades ago. Pretty Warrior Sailor Superman is a good modern example, though.
Yup, Superman can be interesting, it's just that loads of writers aren't interested in telling those stories. He's theoretically simple, but it's the situations you put him in that can make that simplicity shine.
Evil Superman meanwhile has kind of always been boring. Aside from like, the comic adaptation of Injustice, Evil Superman is usually just writers trying to shit on base Superman and lambast sincerity, goodness, kindness and aversion from killing. Plus Injustice Superman works because the normal Superman comes in and kicks his ass, being the ultimate capstone to the Evil Superman thesis.
Didn't expect this review to give me the old age thing, but Arkham City is (checks Google) 11-12 years old. And the Mr Freeze fight is still fondly remembered in that game.
With the lead rocksteady devs jumping ship maybe the burning down of the arkham universe is there way of saying "better blow it up before someone else gets there hands on it"
If Sweet Baby Inc wasn't involved I'd be inclined to believe that.
Oh man I hope they do a FPS, I really loved Urban Chaos Riot Response from them before batman.
See, jumping from burning ship are typically done in covert manners that leaves few if any witnesses from identifying you.
This is more like Rocksteady (and Warner bros to some extent) hijacking the entire communication to announce their plan of destroying the Statue of Liberty, actually doing that by nuking it, then they just don a ski-mask on the spot and pray no one would notice them like they're in Hitman games.
me too! damn we are old@@lucasLSD
Too late, Meta has it now and the next game will be VR exclusive.
Ah, Fuck You Febuary, the long anticipated sequel to Red Letter Media's "Fuck You, it's January!" movies.
Yahtzee you need to give reviews of Live Service games a higher priority. They keep dying faster than you can give them a good kicking.
Honestly, he might not even have time to cover them all, cuz they’ll be dead by the time he starts writing the script for one of them.
I think he's doing fine. There's plenty of other reviewers to kick them when they're new, not to mention the public dogpiling them.
Just when the initial hate is starting to ease up and the game tries to slink away in shame, Yahtzee steps forward to deliver the killing blow.
Here from the post Concord future, and you have no idea how right you were.
Mr Freeze is Victor Fries
Poison Ivy is Pamela Lillian Isley
Scarecrow is Jonathan Crane, modeled after icabod crane from Sleepy Hallow
It's classic comic book stuff
Lest we forget the utter mental arm-twist that is Edward Nygma.
@@strangemobius It's actually Edward Nashton but I think he had it legally changed.
I feel like Harley Quinn deserves a special mention though, because both "Harley" and "Quinn" are names I've heard in real life. I have *never* heard of anyone with the names "Harleen" or "Quinzel" though.
@@Geothesponge111 It's not real life
@@nohbuddy1 Right, that's why Bruce Wayne's actual name is Brucillimus Waynzel, they just call him Bruce Wayne for short.
Although Brainiac is one of my all-time favorite supervillains, this is the third game in the past ten years where he's the main villain. And just like in Lego Batman 3 and Injustice 2, it seems like the developers read the same comics about him bottling up cities and brainwashing their inhabitants. It's like how Yahtzee said "There is only one Aliens plot" which the poor creature is shackled onto in every media adaptation.
hell at least do one of his OTHER storylines, like the time he forcefully upgraded literally everything in metropolis to be a 'city of the future' type deal
I think the only rendition of Brainiac I like is from the Superman Animated Series. I preferred his design as an emotionless machine there a lot more than the usual bald green man look.
To be fair, Alien and Aliens had a different plot and feel, which both spawned games (shooters and Alien Isolation). So I would give that creature two plots.
@@davidgantenbein9362 Alien Isolation and Aliens: Fireteam Elite are the most faithful game adaptations of their respective films for sure! But when you consider how many other games, novels, and comics are all variations of "Evil corporation wants to harness Xenos for biowarfare but they breach lab containment" I could see where Yahtzee's coming from. There are a few exceptions, of course (the books DNA War, Phalanx, and Echo come to mind.)
To quote a character from last week's FR review: "I've been waiting for this!"
still disappointed i commented that first on that video and NOBODY GOT IT
And i will reply same as i did in one such comment (dont believe yours) sad Reload neuters the meme a little bit ಠ︵ಠ
@@bixmcgoo5355 i got it. im with you
I love that in the trailer that got people hyped for this game the flash mocks the idea of shooting him with a gun. Then you kill him by shooting him with guns.
So the plot is that the Justice League is being mind controlled by Brainiac so you have to kill them and then Brainiac. Why not just hit Brainiac first instead and save the hassle?
Braniac spends the whole game chilling in his Skull Ship, so they can't get to him. And the military does try attacking the ship, but they can't because Green Lantern and Superman are both guarding it.
@@benjaminlee985That, and they probably just wanted an excuse to take them out anyway in this universe.
@@fightingleaf
Some Easter eggs and leaked audio lines suggest that the Justice League will be revived and cured in future content.
Even if that is the case, it's probably too little, too late.
@@fightingleaf Yeah, that's a huge win as far as Waller is concerned
I just… nothing can compare to the disappointment I felt when I went from “holy shit, the Arkham devs are making a four player co-op Suicide Squad game?!?! The variety in combat, the bosses, the gadgets, this sounds mindblowingly amazing!!!” to “oh. Another Looter-Shooter Live Service. Fuck.”
YES
and the team they choose could work perfectly for completely diffrent playstyles. Harley would be the middle of the road a al a Fighter class, deadshot the ranged dps a la wizard, king shark the tank a la paladin, and captain boomerang the trapper a la ranger/rogue.
c'mon, this is cooperative multiplayer 101, different roles, not making everyone shooty shoots.
Yeah one of the games greatest sins, that I can tell, is it doesn’t seem to have any of its characters play significantly differently from any of the others. Just four people running around with the same guns
You seem to live under a rock, because way before development the original devs were fired/forced to retire and Sweet Baby Inc.'ed
How did you not understand that the devs that made Arkham Asylum left during Cities development? Or was the Joker in Shit Knight did double duty by both helping you see stars and shoving a shit story up your arse?
Or was it "Shadow of War" that gave you the compelling (read retarded) story of "Shadow of somehow less Mordor" I mean... what ever the fuck happened in that cash grab of a game?
So did Rocksteady forget about all the legal issues Batman was facing after he got doxxed in Arkham Knight?
Yea but.. he was turned evil by brianac so.... legal issues be damned!
Also there was a moment in comics Batman used fear gas to incite fear upon his victims but that was a different person then Bruce.
Wanna see a good evil batman thats mind controlled? Justice League Dark: Apokolips War.
he basically faked his death and went full time batman doing his best to make it seem like someone else taken up the mantle or something at the end. while using fear toxin to make it seem like everybody he takes down is just hallucinating that he's still around
Yes, as seen in the SS tie-in comic that takes place after Arkham Knight and completely ignores every opportunity to address it.
Sweet Baby Inc. search about it
They don't give a fuck. Making the Arkham series share the same universe with this trash pile is just a pathetic corporate attempt to appeal to as many people as possible.
This is why I'll never consider this garbage to be the canon continuity.
It's a bit funny that Yahtz first mocks the thinkpieces that call out SS for shitting on Arkham's legacy, and later... calls out SS for shitting on Arkham's kegacy.
He never said he wasn't a hypocrite.
You can absolutely make Superman interesting. The Animated series and movies prove that. The problem is everyone is so obsessed with "Turn Superhero Evil" plotline, that we've lost all context as to Why were doing that.
To the point that were just making Evil Super Hero's off the bat. (which make's you question why you should care about them because they're Already the Bad Guy's)
I don't think Bad guys can't be interesting characters you care about. It just qequires good writing, the same solution as to the "how to make Superman interesting?" question.
@@Kaefer1973 Should probably have been more specific. You can care about a Bad Guy, but the question you always need to as yourself is "Why should I care about them?". This logic can be applied to any character, but need's special attention to detail when handling Bad Guy's.
If your going full on Evil Villain want's to Conquer/Destroy everything, ya don't need to care about them. They're a force of Nature. You can Understand them, but your never supposed to sympathize with them. That's why character's like Braniac work as a reoccurring villain.
Hero's turned Villain however Need the context and understanding to work as character's. Outside of people who understand the DC universe, going into this game and just saying "Kill these guy's" without any context won't hit on any level. Your Darling's can't Be Darling's unless people understand Why.
This is why the Marvel Movie's Worked (until recently) because they took time to build everything up. The suicide squad universe just want's you to know that these are the guy's your gonna kill, and your playing as a pack of villain's doing it. Which is just lazy story telling at every turn.
I'm already hearing people ask why they should care about the people they're playing as, rather then the people they're killing. To that end I say, yeah, I'm not shocked. If you weren't a DC fan, this sure as hell ain't gonna convince people to become one.
@@Next0gen0 Another reason I find you stop caring when the super heroes are evil is because it reflects the world they live in.
So why should I care about any of these characters when the world is so jaded and messed up that the folks representing our noblest qualities are evil?
Overly Sarcastic has a whole video in which they explain that "make Superman evil" misses the whole point of Superman. Namely, that he's so powerful he could be a god-king if he wanted to, but instead he cares. Arguably, the central concept of Invincible is that Mark is Superman, and his dad is what he could have been if he didn't have a conscience. Eventually Mark wins over his father from the Dark Side.
1. Fuck you for spoiling Invincible
2. Superman being a kind man instead of a god-king is one facet of his character, and not his whole character. Besides, turning that on its head by making him evil would still work as a subversion even if that was all there was to the character.
We may be over saturated with evil Supermen, but it’s not an inherently flawed concept.
@@mimicry5713 - Sorry I spoiled a plot point from 20 years ago for you. Or if you've only watched the TV show, from 4 months ago, I guess.
Oddly the least interesting version of Superman to me is the evil ones. There are plenty of ways to make Superman interesting it’s just that some writers are kinda lazy and fall back on evil Superman trope
Absolutely. It's actually the best way to make him uninteresting - just turn him evil.
I'll add my voice to the others disagreeing with the "Superman is only interesting when he's evil" idea.
Superman can be plenty interesting when he's actually written as a person, and not just a powerset.
Yahtzee needs to read a good Superman comic. And so did the people who made this game.
Yeah, explore what constant need to be paragon does to a person or on gameplay side, how to integrate a practically invincible character while still maintaining challenge like how to beat baddies while keeping the preventing or minimizing property and human casualties.
Or make his personal relation as the central part of the story, like needing to balance his civilian guise and superhero activities, his powerset more or less made many superheroes redundant and what effect it'll do to their relationship dynamics.
Or just say to hell with superman on Earth and have him fight exclusively against supervillain on his level or at the very least capable of hurting him.
that Lois and Superman animated show does a good job of that
Humanizing *insert thing here* is storytelling 101 for making the audience care about *insert thing here*, which is merely pointing out that this isn’t really a “superman” issue, and the question isn’t really “is superman himself inherently interesting or uninteresting.” It’s also probably worth pointing out that Yahtzee is not a universal fountain of truth, and what any of us find interesting inevitably evolves as we age, learn, consume more stories, and encounter stuff we’ve seen before. I used to be obsessed with anime, but traditional anime story arcs and character tropes I now find tedious (to my dismay).
and "boring" protagonists can work if they have interesting foils, a lot of the strength lies in how people depict lex luthor, lois, etc.
Happy Fuck You February, everyone. Even in this increasingly polarised world, every once in a while we can all unite, with one voice, and come up with scathing burns for an algorithmically generated entertainment product that had the gall to exist.
Two algorithmic superhero products this month, actually! Remember, Madame Web exists!
...I'm so sorry!
Fuck You February has become a tradition. Anthem came out in February, and we all know how well that game turned out. "The thing we hate of the week..."
@@mangamaster03Except some things aren't simply hated and forgotten. Remember all that cope about how people would come to like _The Last Jedi_ over time, and instead it was so heinous it launched a thousand RUclips careers? The fact that _this_ was the last thing Kevin Conroy ever did (much like how TLJ was the last thing Carrie Fisher ever did) is the kind of offense that earns _dwarven_ grudges.
Happy Fuck You February to you too. … and I‘m pretty sure the industry will be more than ready to deliver an equally bad games as a service by next February again.
Let's all laugh at an industry that never learns anything, tee hee hee.
You guys have not missed a beat since The Great Change, and I'm loving it.
The "weaponised incompetence" point might actually hold some merit, especially given that leaked audio files have confirmed the Justice League will be resurrected in the seasonal content.
Quick Rocksteady, wipe this game from the canon with Flash time travel shenanigans then give us our damn Justice League game! Or even another Suicide Squad game, but one inspired by XCOM where we can blow up the heads of big-name villains and randomly generated schmuck villains alike!
It's honestly painfully obvious that Rocksteady didn't want to make this shit. Especially since WB games just made almost all the exact same mistakes with Gotham Knights. Someone at the top of WB who knows nothing about video games is just determined that a live service game will make him a trillionaire. Thankfully James Gunn is now in charge of DC (including video games), he's a gamer and a huge fan of the Arkham and KOTOR games. So hopefully he can steer them in the right direction.
With an xcom base you don't even need to fight with supers. Missions just need story reasonable objectives assasinate, theft, defend. Stuff with stock groups. Even could start players with d-listers and earn our way to deadshot and Harley. Or ...ugh... random Summons for recruitment pools.
There's another point of note. DC and the Warner Brothers has historically been tight-fisted with Superman to the point where any interesting concept is denied quickly.
That actually explains why anything Superman underwhelms (Titus' N64 Superman game being a major blight) and why Batman is preferred for more meatier superhero stories.
I disagree that Superman is only interesting if he's evil, but the rest of this review is 100% spot on. It's an embarrassment to Rocksteady and the Arkham series. I'm so glad to see Yahtzee tear this game a new one.
Very much agreed.
Good news: it isn’t his final performance. Crisis on Infinite Earths Part 3 is.
Yeah, people can make him interesting in other ways if they're an actually good writer.
Honestly, yeah. Superman's only boring when he's used as a battering ram to deal with the current baddy of the week. I think where Superman actually shines is when he's *not* using his powers. Giving him moral quandaries and opportunities to show that despite being an alien he's probably the most human superhero to exist is where he shines IMO.
Yeah, All-Star Superman pretty much put this idea to rest.
I was wondering why Deadshot’s mask was hitting my nostalgia until I realized Metal Gear
tto be fair My Adventures With Superman was a breath of fresh air for the character. once the writing is good and he has a good foil in Lois, he is actually a fun character to explore
I think Yahtzee was being seriously disingenuous about Superman only being interesting if he’s evil
I find a shy kind man who happens to have the powers of a god way more interesting than all powerful space tyrant 57
The former has contrast and is a lot less pessimistic
you are literally a furry.
your opinion is knot valid.
Making Superman evil isn't how you make him interesting. You make him interesting by exploring his humanity, and his relationship to those he protects.
Or to put it differently, you make him interesting the same way you make every other character interesting as well. The question how well they can handle themselves in a fight never made any character either interesting or boring.
Every nihlist and cynic's worst nightmare.
@@leithaziz2716 I don't like Daria for the same reasons as I don't like poorly executed evil Superman stories, nihilism and cynicism is easy. Too easy.
@@andrewlassen7430there’s a great Superman story that was turned into a movie “Superman Vs the Elite” where Superman basically fights the Boys, they don’t care about not killing, they don’t care about civilian casualties, they just care about looking cool.
And Superman rightly points out with their amazing powers they could do so much more, but their power made them cynical, and that cynicism made them lazy
Theres always a way to avoid deaths, he knows, he famously lives in a world made of cardboard, but if you don’t care about anyone but yourself, why bother being creative when you can just blow a hole through the bad guys.
@@seanmcloughlin5983 Trivia: The Elite were based on "The Authority", a Wildstorm series with the premise of "ruthless heroes put themselves up as a higher authority and start being a factor in world politics". Seriously, if you read it, the inspiration is very obvious. Then again, the Authority also beat up obvious expies of the Avengers in their third big arc, so turnabout is fair play.
“Superman is evil” is honestly the laziest thing you can do with the character
“Superman despite his incredible power still being a kid from Smallville who’s biggest muscle is his heart.” Is more interesting I find because it’s less cynical
Oooo if a person had that kind of power they’d be an insane tyrant
Oooor, they’d just want to help people even more
"Superman is boring" is the perfect way to spot a tourist. They always think it's the most edgy/subversive premise. These days the subversive thing to do would be to make Superman like he was in the Christopher Reeves movies and the cartoons: a good dude who does the right thing because it's the right thing.
I would follow up with bringing up the 1990s animated series and its successor, Justice League (and Justice League Unlimited, the continued seasons/sequel). Clark is a bit more snarky, and his past mistakes and battles have affected him in the JL era, pushing him to be more prone to distrust and anger, particularly around Lex Luthor and Darkseid. That animated universe even explores the "evil Superman" concept a couple of times. But in the end, Superman is shown as a guy just trying to do the right thing, one who isn't afraid to ask for some help.
"Superman is only interesting when he's evil" if you suck as a writer and have the imagination of dry cement. Which to be fair tracks with Kill the Justice League
Superman being a good person with basically unlimited power is what makes him interesting. Totally agree with you.
Showing the image of Invincible when saying nobody respects superheroes anymore is wildly funny to me because Invincible is probably the one series in this day and age that has enough love for the genre to reconstruct it after deconstructing it.
You think he actually reads these comics?
I'd say, Superman is at his most interesting when his moral compass gets shaken up. He's unflinchingly good, always taking the high ground, and never faltering. However, in a complicated world where things aren't always conveniently sorted into Good and Evil, his staunch commitment to "Doing what's right, no matter what" can lead him to go too far, when forced to choose the lesser of two evils. One's he's picked one of them as "the right choice" he'll go after it with zeal, and that can be dangerous.
Simply making him evil however, takes the Superman out of Superman.
Superman vs the Elite is a good example of Supes doubting his morals.
Funny thing about the ending bit, how could Rocksteady go back to the Arkham gameplay when the two co-founders, and I believe every single member of the dev team from those games, left two years ago? There ain't very many people left over there
Didn’t Rocksteady explode in staff? So maybe it’s less „there aren’t many people left“ and more „there aren’t many people with talent left“.
"the only way to make Superman interesting is making him evil"
*points at "My Adventures with Superman"*
Point's at All-Star Superman with the other hand
@@chikkin.salad.sandwich That cartoon had audience averages comparable to Ninja Kamui and Demon Slayer.
A lot of people gave a shit and you do as well when you feel the need to lie about its success to try and bring it down for whatever reason.
Also points at Invincible (the plot isn't "evil superman", it's "Superman's dad is evil"). Mark is a good person who wants to save lives and struggles with his secret identity.
Points at Superman the animated series, Justice League season 2, and Justice League Unlimited.
This entire game feels like a massive tug-of-war between Rocksteady trying to make something at least interesting, and WB being WB and thus WB'ing it all up.
The talk about the ending being PATCHED IN later made me so angry that I almost dowvoted this video out of instinctual rage.
I cannot overemphasize how much I appreciate the opening notes of these videos not being the loudest thing in the universe while still retaining the exact same vibes as opening theme 1.0
Short lived nostalgia and all that but my sensory issues were being assaulted constantly, truly making the watching experience like that of the cross
For YOU yahtz
Reminds me of how Diablo 4's devs said that if players started to burn out from the game or got bored that they should just take a break and play something else. You know something has gone wrong when you have to tell your players to play something else.
The worst part is that I could think of an infinite number of ways of having the plot be “fight the good guys”:
Alternate Earth Justice League like in the episode “A Better World”
Alternate Earth Justice League like in the game “Lego DC Super Villains”
Mind control the Justice League but don’t kill then b/c they are too valuable like “Lego Batman 3 Beyond Gotham”
Have them be D-List superheroes
And Hawkman
D-List superheroes who were mind controlled by Braniac
D-List superheroes who were mind controlled by Starro
Or better yet
DONT ASSASSINATE ANY BELOVED CHARACTERS SO YOU CAN USE THEM LATER AND GUN SOMEBODY LIKE MONGUL LIKE IN “THE SUICIDE SQUAD”!!
Seriously, they thought that killing their Earth’s Justice League was the more interesting option because it was the edgy option!
Or they could just use the in-built evil Justice League and have you fight off an invasion from the Crime Syndicate from Earth-3
or hell just have you be the villains sent to murder the jsuice league because amanda waller's a corrupt night templar who wants the jusitce league dead out of paranoia.
Or go justice league unlimited season one finally with robo league imposters. The ones with brainiac.
If live service required each season is an updated models. Have them fight 3 simulaneus batmen.
@@sarafontanini7051 That’s a great idea! It has the potential of developing into deeper themes. Though, I have always viewed Waller as a controlling woman that doesn’t trust vigilantes, no matter how virtuous or controlled they are. Giving the themes of oppression, freedom, and the short sightedness of people like her.
Yeah I was reeeeally hoping these weren’t the League, but the Crime Syndicate in disguise. Would have been a fun plot reveal of the squad grabbing one of the heroes’ weaknesses and finding out mid-battle it’s not working on them. “Alright we got the kryptoni-wait WHY IS HE GETTING STRONGER?!?”
Dam. My main defense of this game was “Now your gonna feel what it’s ljke when Batman takes you down one by one!” And they DID do that, which is good, but it’s not even his main boss fight. Could of been epic, rocksteady….
2:00 "Turning Superman evil is the only way to make him interesting". Tell me you've never seen *any* good Superman story without telling you've ever read a good Superman story. God, I'm sick of cynical takes like that.
If Incogni knew what they are getting into then kudos to them!
One of the few ad reads I actually listened to. Good job on them.
If I know anything about ecelebs, the sponsorships do nothing except drive critical people away from the product.
I know that Incogni's services are just filing 3-year deletion requests to data suppliers, which one can do themselves with time, patience and proof that you are the person filing for data removal.
For the first time in...many moons, it's an advert for a product I actually a) had never heard of and b) think is a bloody brilliant idea. Yes, and Yahtzee actually says it, you could send requests yourself to everyone e harvesting your data but c) you'd have to find out who they are and d) then fill in a request for each one and then e) follow up any requests that aren't answered after the legislated time.
If this company actually does all of that, and it's worth it (nessecity/price) for you, I can't see any reason why you wouldn't sign up for it.
f) I don't work for incogni.
@@Code7Unltd Yeah but that's kind of the point, isn't it? Incogni is selling the convenience of not having to invest said time and patience into it. "Pay someone to do a boring, tedious thing for you" is the whole idea of paid services like this. Car washes exist not because people CAN'T wash their own cars, but because they don't WANT to.
Some companies are just cool like that - makes me think of Tomska's Surfshark ads, I'm fairly sure they let him get away with anything.
The "Problem telling stories with Superman" is such a contrived BS idea. He has a dozen plus villians in his own rogue gallery who can go toe to toe with him in a fight if you want just a basic "Superhero vs a challenging to defeat villain". And that's not even including the hundreds of other DC characters who could challenge him if you somehow wanted to do that. Likewise people seem to think "We can't have a good-guy who is like a really -really- good guy as a main character anymore, Everyone has to be flawed/sad/dramatic." It's the ole "Everyone has to be like Batman to tell stories" When the truth is Batman works in part because you have the superman type stories to view as a contrast!
Somehow Hollywood just decided that "Superman is imposible to turn into a movie/video game/etc" when you need only look at the literal decades of comicbook stories that have done so quite successfully for inspiration. Can't have that thought can we!...ugh.
I am -hoping- Gunn can do better. If he really is gonna use "All Star Superman" as a template/concept to pull from then he might very well finally prove my long term views as above right. Here's hoping.
Mm. Superman always had his own genre flavour which contrast and complemented Batman's own. Making him just as moody as the latter in the DCEU made no sense.
ive been watching Yazthee for something lile 15 years at this point. I always enjoy his work, but genuinely laughing out loud is something long since past.
However, "Suicide Squad: Kill me and end my disease of a life you remorseless bastards" absolutely killed me.
10/10 would die again.
With Shadow of War you could at least get the ending without waiting for a battle pass.
And they patched it out anyway. They considerably reduced the end game grind.
The concept of experiencing a Batman predator mission from the perspective of the goons is such a good idea I’m insulted it’s in this game. Imagine if you had to beat Batman by faking him out with quick double backs, placing grenades in the air-ducts and strategically removing gargoyles to herd him to one area you can get at him.
It's not "Batman's legacy" that people felt was being spat on. It's Kevin Conroy's legacy as this was his final big outing.
Also, "Superman is only interesting when he's evil" are the words of someone who is clearly not a Superman fan. Stories about Superman coming to terms with his legacy, or trying to understand the limit of how far Superman can help or take action are great. And then there was the Tomasi Rebirth run where he had a son and actually dealt with being a parent. Not a one off gimmick either, it was the whole Tomasi run.
I mean, "I think Superman is bad" being the take of someone who doesn't like Superman is kind of a given.
I don’t care that they killed Batman in a soulless cash grab, I care that they crapped on Kevin Conroy. Had it been some self contained universe that didn’t use Conroy’s voice or try to force continuity with his role in the Arkham games, then I would just shrug and move on. But no, they couldn’t have even a little respect for a well-liked actor’s legacy who by all accounts was a pretty upstanding guy.
"Make superman evil is the only way to make him interesting."
No, that's just the only way to make him interesting if you don't know how to write compelling characters, or be creative enough with the plots to find way to challenge Superman on grounds other than his physical prowess.
Which is why the hacks that write for DC think making Superman evil is the only way to make him interesting.
As always, the TV shows do great with the character and the films just can't. I think there's some tier you pass where the idea of "powerful but genuinely kind and good" just... breaks in your mind? Good Superman writing is about hard choices, second chances, the vulnerability of loving people who are far more fragile than you, and the "power fantasy" (if we have to cal lit that) of "what if all the horrible people and governments and terrorists and zealots and warmongers and racists and antisemites finally ran into *one guy*, just *one guy* who could actually tell them NO and couldn't be assassinated or steamrolled out of their way?"
In a weird way I'm actually not surprised Yahtzee has this take. Generally speaking it seems like those who prefer evil Supes are the types that wear their resentment on their sleeve. If they were in Clark's shoes they wouldn't hesitate to destroy because that's just how they feel about the world. I don't want to lean too hard in this psycho-analysis angle but it's the only way I can really make sense of it.
In fairness, it's hard to write in that sort of development environment. They probably didn't even hire a writer until they were months away from launch. Having writing at all is merely an afterthought, a crutch meant to stitch together more important elements like levels, visuals and gameplay mechanics.
A few weeks ago I watched a 5 hour RUclips video of all the cutscenes in the game, including banter lines while in the open world. And it wasn't nearly as bad as I expected, not great but defiently not awful (the cargo crate scene was particularly well done) but yeah, it showed very little of the actual gameplay which probably says a lot that removing that makes me feel positive about it
Side note - I hate that articles these days will say "Everyone" is saying something just because it was posted on Twitter or Reddit, like the 1st headline at 0:39
The only thing that could save this game is a DLC called 'Suicide Squad: Kill the Developers'
You gotta hold out hope Rocksteady really are feigning incompetence so no one asks them to make something like this again, but they're gonna have to get creative with the retcon considering this has been stapled onto the Arkhamverse. Like "we said it was Arkhamverse but never WHICH Arkhamverse, aha!", or they start the next real Arkham game with Harley waking up and going "what a crazy dream... I should do that", and then some side plot is her trying to gather people together to make a suicide squad and jamming bombs in their necks, and it goes tits up and out of hand and batman has to stop her or summut.
A Yahtzee-flavoured advertisement segment after the Fully Ramblomatic? That's like having a free dessert.
I know that the game is literally titled “kill the justice league” but I still wasn’t expecting them to actually succeed at that.
Let's see Yahtzee destroy this game.
YESSSSS
That's what we're all here for.
Yahtzee: Kill "Suicide Squad: Kill The Justice League"
To late, the developers beat him to it.
And laugh at an industry that never learns anything
yahtzee has committed the horrible mistake of calling superman boring out loud. he will never live this down.
Superman fans out here trying their best to dispel Superman propaganda (it's me I'm Superman fans all of them are me)
I mean is that really still a controversial thing to say? Like at this point almost everyone that I have seen discussing anything related to him agrees on this.
yahtzee's said his stance on superhero stuff a lot of times when reviewing superhero games that he thinks they're all just power fantasies for little boys and that superman is inherently boring
he's basically on the pretend hipster side of things when it comes to superheroes where you think you're being different but there's actually still tons of people who think exactly the same on this
he has said before "superman is an utterly bland character" years ago but not everyone's watched all his videos so eh
@@Guymanbot97Almost everyone is a normie repeating the normie take. Either that or it's Batman fans spreading their bat-propaganda.
@@thegodofalldragons"People who disagree with me are normies"
When faced against four of the most powerful brainwashed heroes in the League, the only solution is to just hit them with more dakka. That's it. Just dakka and more dakka. And wait, where is the rest of the League? Where is Aquaman or Cyborg or Martain Manhunter or Green Arrow or, hell, where is Doctor Fate or Zatanna? It's just four specific heroes... and Wonder Woman.
Rocksteady is like that father figure you adored as a child who left to get milk for some reason, only to come back years later, late into your adulthood as a drunk crack addicted asshole who asks you for money because you and him -are- were _"family"_
We can sit around all day talking about how 'interesting' default Superman is or isn't. I'm personally of the opinion that the Blue Boyscout is actually really compelling, but surely something we can *all* agree on is that making Supes evil IS the most boring thing you can do with him. A core component of what does, or at least can make Superman interesting to read about is the contrast between the great power that he wields and the restraint he has to exercise at all times, physically and emotionally so as to not have that power escaping his control. A Superman that doesn't care about holding back and just does whatever he wants to whoever he wants and whenever he wants is just.....I mean you might as well go write about Darkseid or Lux Luthor, you're halfway there already.
Now I'm not saying Injustice as a WHOLE is good but the early parts with Superman slowly letting go of that restraint as he's being pushed over the edge could've been a really good look into the character
I think the real reason evil superman is interesting is that the more evil he goes the less evil the megamillion company and lazy author looks. All with minimal character interactions.
That argument about how it's not disrespecting Batman as a character or Kevin Conroy as an actor, but actually disrespecting previous game continuity is a REALLY good way to look at it.
Like to use a relevant example from a game you didn't like that was announced today, when you fight the Demi-Fiend in Shin Megami Tensei V, they acknowledge that when you fight a previous protagonist, it better be good!
I love the part where the '''''''''''game''''''''''' thanks Kevin Conroy.... And then immediately gives you a loot box with a weapon called Mysterious illness.
I just realized with the new AC release date. It truly is about to be an annual thing
I assume the articles about how Self-Unalive Squad is unfair to Batman has more to do with Rocksteady basically creating the gold standard third person combat game much like Symphony of the Night made Metroidvanias, and then making this. Just the same shtick that happened with Arkane Studios: "your company is known for being GREAT at making X but Y is kinda popular now so make a Y game and have it out just in time for Y to no longer be popular."
"superman turning evil is the only way to make him interesting" takes from people who don't read comics are why so many executive ghouls in both film and videogames keep insisting on "superman is evil now" stories and, controversial take, those are extremely boring and exist primarily to pander to people who have the preconceived notion that you can't tell stories with good boy superman and therefore refuse to engage with media that features him. the dumb suicide squad game is the logical conclusion of that market reality tbh.
The implication that the mentality of jaded people like Yahtzee are what causes these edgy stories to exist in the first place is hugely entertaining for me.
There is no way for me to describe this game other than miscarriage
Abortion seems apt too
Cheap vodka-induced miscarriage of an incest baby, perhaps.
A miscarriage of Justice... League?
@@Tleilaxu0 dang it, ya beat me to it!
@@Tleilaxu0 dammit, take this like. You earned it.
Correction: turning Superman evil is the only interesting thing you can do with him… if you’re current studios and incapable of actually understanding what makes Superman Superman.
1:55 - personal bias towards Superman aside, evil Superman often still isn't interesting. Banger review otherwise.
Yahtzee unironically saying "the only way to make Superman interesting is to make him evil" caught me off guard. Terrible take.
Evil superman was only ever supposed to be a one off storyline.
Animating the sponsor ad the same way you animate your show is brilliant, actually makes me not want to skip it.
always encouraging to encounter a bottom 5 so early on in the year
5:00 "and that'll be $70, contents and the actual ending will be locked for the next few years hehe" - rocksteady
Surely #1 live service enjoyer Yahtzee Crosshaw gives this masterpiece a great review…
I've had this attitude for a while, but well done advertisements are not unwelcome. What I hate are advertisements that A. don't appreciate who the viewers actually are and what they'll realistically want, are B. uninteresting and made with either little effort, or made to fit a specific script to the point that it takes away all creative freedome from the channel making it, and C. advertisements that don't respect my time as a viewer, they have to be somewhat interesting and not utterly irrelevant.
the saddest part about this is this apparently has a tribute to kevin conroy, the most iconic voice of batman for many and the one who voiced him inthe aarkham games. (i think this was also his final role, voicing batman for this game but i could be wrong about that)
meaning this game not only shat on the legacy of a gaming franchise, but also the legacy of a real life actor who died.
Theres other animated projects that he voiced before he passed so Rocksteady/WB promoting this as Kevins last time voicing Batman is flat out lying.
@@Kozokuone of those reports was confirmed false. There's a possibility that the second one could be true, but that remains to be seen.
He might’ve already done work for the forthcoming caped crusader series I’ve heard, though it’s unclear wether he’s still Batman early on.
Turning Superman evil is at this point *less* interesting than literally anything else they could possibly do with him, pretty sure you just don't like Superman
I'm pretty sure he just doesn't like superheroes in general.
I find it funny that Yahtzee starts the review making fun of other outlets complaining about how this game disrespects the legacy of some of these characters, then at 4:17 complains about how the game disrespects the legacy of the Arkham Knight Batman.
It’s less about the character and more about the time spent with this story being ended on such an anti climactic note.
I think it's more because he was just completely disappointed by the boss fight itself. He knew he'd be killing ManBat but not as a ridiculous DeadSpace-looking final boss
I suppose the difference is that in this case they're disrespecting their own media, instead of someone else's. Or maybe he's a hypocrite, who knows? I'm not dying on this hill.
Well, of course it would disrespect Arkham Knight... they were all done by Rocksteady. Superhero 'legacies' are a fallacy held up by fanboys who want to read the same story over and over again.
He isn’t really going after disrespect there, more about them building up the fight and not delivering anything worthwhile. In the same vain as the game is officially part of the Arkhamverse, but doesn’t deliver on any of the associated expectations.
The Justice League on the other hand hasn’t been part of the Arkhamverse before in any capacity and hasn’t been built up by Rocksteady to be anything but bad cardboard cutouts for shooting practice.
I didn't find Superman to be interesting at all when he became evil. All he did was crack a couple of jokes till he died from all the bullet wounds. In fact, every brainwashed JL member did that except for batman.
The way I see it is this game is just a really bad Borderlands game.
4:04 yeah, that's literally what people are complaining about.
Wait is that Eric Bana as Mark 'Chopper' Read for the Captain Boomerang stand-in? Awesome.
I think the problem is that we as a society have killed the entire idea of "heroes", super or otherwise.
The best outcome of this game is that it prompted me to replay the Arkham series.
1:54 Hey Yatzee: Tell me you've never read Superman without saying you've never read Superman.
0:30 It’s official. We had Mehuary. Now we have F%ckuary.
I will be honest.. I expected Yahtzee to know better than to think that Superman is boring. Like... consume any piece of media about him that isn't a Hollywood movie. He is literally a comic book character, read at least one famous comic about him or something. There's been tons of interesting stuff done with him and his better comics all show what interesting scenarios you can create with a virtually allpowerful, seemingly pure hearted hero.
Yahtzee, the best outcome of playing this game is that your brain survived the mediocrity.
Deriding superheroes as only little boys' power fantasies. Thanks for reminding me why I don't watch your videos except once in a blue harvest moon.
That is quite literally where superhero’s originated. Something to sell comics and dolls to little boys. They are the male versions of Barbies
@@emilybarclay8831That may be where they started, but that doesn’t mean the medium cannot create compelling stories.
I always questioned why you'd want to make an entire game about killing beloved superheroes
And... Then the game didn't really have an answer for this and it was sorta awkward and ghoulish but not in a funny or even serious way.
"Yup The Flash is dead. Please clap."