Not So Fulfilled Christian Prophesies
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- Опубликовано: 20 ноя 2018
- When I posted my video on Unfulfilled Prophesies, I irritated some Christians--in particular Mike Winger--who made videos complaining about it. Now I'm talking with Dr Joshua Bowen who wanted to explain the criticisms coming from Christians and also counter those criticisms with his own scholarship.
Please see Dr Bowen's Patreon, where there is called “Tired of Hearing about Tyre:” Ezekiel and His “Failed” Prophecy”: / digitalhammurabi
RUclips Channel: / digitalhammurabi
Website: www.digitalhammurabi.com
Twitter: @digi_hammurabi
Is his bed really high or is his stool really low?
Or am I high?
the bed is high.
the stool is high.
You are high.
Everything is so hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh
BecomingMike Probably both.....like me, lol
Or he is tiny, I guess
His bed looks usually high it seems to me. I guess he likes to feel far from the floor lol
I would hope the latter if you're making yourself watch this....
My favourite comment on one of Winger's videos was someone complaining how Aron is "over educated".
As if knowing less about a topic somehow makes you able to have a better grasp of a subject.
BEST : D
Not having any knowledge might make you less bias and more open.
Yes, I hear that once in a while. I think it’s an unguarded moment and quite telling.
@@daraghokane4236 I don't exactly believe that because I see people who have no knowledge about biology or genetics using their incredulity as a reason for why they (and in turn evolution) must be wrong.
@@WeirdWonderful ya but they don't admit to having no knowledge of the subject.
Dr Bowen is unreal. I don't know why he thinks he'd be no good in a live debate. I reckon he'd be fantastic. He clearly has heaps of knowledge at his disposal and sounds very confident, honest and convincing.
I hope you have more talks with him discussing and explaining the bible.
He would be useful in helping to prepare for a debate but probably not do well in an actual debate. Debating is a skill in of itself, its why people like Kent Hovand do so well selling BS. He is well spoken and great in debates.
I think he could be great in debate if he learned how to debate. It is a skill that must be learned to engage. He has the knowledge and that is fantastic. I hope he does learn to debate if it suits his personality. If not it looks like he is up for training the debaters and that would be fantastic.
@@jacoblee5796
Which is the reason why academic issues aren't solved by debates.
John Thimakis I agree, academic issues aren't solved by debates, nor should they be.
Kristin Wright Debating is a skill that can be learned. I agree also that it helps to have the right personality for it.
It always makes me laugh when hardline fundamentalist Christians insist that the bible is the literal word of god, personally dictated and inviolate, and then have to interpret every word to make it even halfway appear to work. If you think God meant to say what you are trying to read into it then why didn't he just say that instead of what was actually written?
Atheists Fight Club Ikr, which of the 100+ English translations is the “literal word of God”?
@@davemojarra2666 It's the old problem... "Oh those are all wrong, only the one *i* have is right."
Bible thumpers check mate themselves. If everything would be directly from God then "kill your family members who choose another religion, kill homosexuals and kill witches" is his command and people have to follow his orders.
Atheists Fight Club it’s a head scratcher 🥴
I do remember a video a while back @@TorianTammas where that was pointed out, to which they replied that obviously you had to use some common sense, the only thing that is obviously common sense about the Abrahamic religion is that it was obviously written by a frustrated shepherd who was allergic to wool and so had a lot of time on his hands...
That's why you ought not to learn Hebrew If you want to keep your faith.
In Israeli secular schools, they taught us the Hebrew Bible, but in religious education, they mostly study the Talmud and Mishnah and only a small limited selection of biblical texts, because of anyone can understand these fables in their original form would not be able to maintain his religion.
Gad Yariv I tell Christians that all the time. I did learn Hebrew just to read the Bible. Made me run as fast as I could away from over ten years of being Torah observant and 20 years as a Christian.
@@youtube-Name111 Yes. It is unbelievable in the English. It is even more cruel and inhumane. Flat out commands to take prepubescent girls as sex slaves etc. So if you continue to believe it after that, you are kind of a horrible person.
@@GoshenTrailsRanch does that include the new testament in it's original languages?
@@pagedprawn3760 while I couldn’t tell you for sure I do highly doubt it considering Greek was far easier to translate into our modern languages by comparison to the old Hebrew texts then translated into Greek then translated to our languages today
@@blackhawktalon9971 thx
When you're spewing what Christians believe and you claim to be one than they love you but as soon as you start thinking and finding out the truth and start speaking the truth they say you were never a real Christian.
Yep, that one drives me nuts. It's a Stan at my integrity I feel. I sure as hell believed I was an on fire and fully committed Christian. I'd find it less insulting if they claimed I lost my salvation. Weird, but I feel that way. It at least recognizes the very real beliefs and experiences I had.
@Lacuna Leora I would argue "real Christianity was lost sometime around Constantine. That's when major doctrinal changes started to seep in at faster rates. The Orthodox appear to have retained more of a the original way, but even they went way off with Mary and Icons and Just War etc.
Which is the definition of a cult. You can't leave, so if you do, you were never a member.
You probably know already, but that right there is a "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
@Lacuna Leora Real Christianity was lost in the early 100s, then 300s, then several times during Middle Ages, and there are so many denominations that appeared after that well, there is not much left from the original.
This was an excellent guest speaker on your channel. I appreciate his candor and knowledge.
Thanks both for sharing the wonderful chat. Simply marvellous work!
The entire argument of prophecy is dead as soon as you come to the fact that the writers of New Testament had access to the Old Testament when they wrote it.
The best hosts don't interrupt their guests. Guests keep the content fresh and the viewers from getting bored of the same voice and ideas all the time.
Dr Bowen, you have some awesome information that the layperson needs to know about. I don't think there are enough people in your field and similar doing what you do. You mentioned a colleague of yours who reviewed your paper and was stunned that people actually take that prophecy that way. Don't be apologetic (no pun intended, lol) about sharing the information you have. I was gobbling it all up and am hungry for more.
Whoever believes in the Lord Jesus Christ shall not perish but have everlasting life repent for the kingdom of God is at hand! Jesus is returning to judge the living and the dead repent for the kingdom of God is at hand! Jesus is returning
Jesus broke his promise then… his return date has long expired…
Last year, when I was a sophomore in HS, the only thing we were taught about evolution in a period of 9 months was antibiotic resistance. I believe my teacher taught the minimum standards for Kentucky. Your videos on evolution and the systematic classification of life helped my knowledge and passion of evolution skyrocket. I want to pursue a career in evolutionary biology/zoology thanks to you sir. Thank You.
any update?
On the matter of humans are apes, i'm with Sir Terry Pratchett:
“The anthropologists got it wrong when they named our species Homo
sapiens ('wise man'). In any case it's an arrogant and bigheaded thing
to say, wisdom being one of our least evident features. In reality, we
are Pan narrans, the storytelling chimpanzee."
Anyone doing video on that American missionary on remote Indian island? His faith was strong, but the arrows were apparently stronger...
I heard about that! I know it is wrong to wish harm on others, but when they insist upon pushing their religion onto others then I can't help but to take pleasure in knowing that people that stupid can no longer pollute the gene pool.
@@ThatGuy-fb1wy Well ancient Christians who were actually successful tended to spread their belief with swords... seems they had a point.
Or he thought he was a sharp guy, but the arrows are sharper.
@@NetAndyCz
"seems they had a point."
LOL! They indeed had a point. Unfortunately they had the nasty tendency to drive their point down other's throats. You could say that modern christians now try to drive their points down other's throats pointlessly. I must point out that many of them now have guns instead, so it may only be a matter of time before they begin delivering their points blank. I guess my point is that much points to a future of point blank situations pointed at pointing out pointless points at this point from my point of view. Be well and have a great day!
poor guy ...
Altogether, a damn fine video! Thanks to Aron & Dr. J for a very pleasant, erudite, facinating 90 mins. Bravo! Encore!
Dr.Josh is such a wealth of knowledge!!
I'm always just so impressed w/ him & how he is able to communicate so much information, w/ ease & make it accessible to pple like me!
Bravo!!
Two of my favorite channels on yt, in one stream! This was incredible!
Thank you Dr Josh & Aron Ra 💗
You are beautiful woman!
Stop apologizing for being technical. Some of us like it! XD
"When your ego is tied to it, it's very problematic." So true. For the apologists it's their ego, for the believer nextdoor it's their identity.
I came from religion and I wouldn't mind so much if the text were taken, as dr. Josh said, for the literary genres they are. If the whole fear of hell was taken out from behind reading them.
Some of those texts *can* provide comfort or food for thought. They can intellectual challenge and spur spiritual growth. And in that regard they don't have to be thrown away, like dr. Josh said too. In the meantime we base our day to day actions and decisions on solid evidence and reasoning like Aron tells us.
I so hope we can one day move away from the "fight". And those really disingenuous voices, like the Hams and Hovinds and televangelists etc. of the world, can be silenced. If any miracle was possible to be asked for and occur, then that would be my wish.
Well said. Being from Europe, I sometimes forget the level of fundamentalist aggression that rational minds have to contend with in the US. I, too, hope that the day soon comes when reason overcomes superstition and religion is banished from all the places it is currently still able to interfere. An individual's spiritual life, or lack thereof, is entirely a matter for them alone. Education and politics in particular benefit immeasurably from secular administration. God, Allah, and the Giant Spaghetti Monster should have no say in them.
@Trolltician
My point is that politics _shouldn't_ involve religious views. I am well aware that they _do._
And if _you_ think that religious interference is actually _necessary_ to the effective administration of a political system, then it is _you_ that's the fool.
@Trolltician you have a very loose meaning when using the word "religious"
@Trolltician
That rather depends on what you mean by religion, doesn't it? If you mean simply a person's dedication to something that's important to them, then obviously their opinions and convictions will have an impact on their political positions.
There is nothing wrong with this, provided you don't use those opinions and convictions to interfere in the lives of people that don't share them because you feel that your religious belief, without any tangible evidence, in some mythical being somehow gives you the authority to impose your bone-headed, unscientific ideas about "morality" on them.
"Because it's what god would want" is not a valid political argument.
@Trolltician
I can't work out if you're just being obtuse here or you're actually a bit dense.
If you are genuinely trying to suggest some equivalence between the way fundamentalist theists behave and the way sane, rational people behave, then you really aren't as smart as you like to think.
And "it's what the unintelligent universe would want" is an oxymoron. Maybe you'd be daft enough to say something like that, but nobody I know would.
Clearly a gentleman and a scholar.
Joshua Bowen, how about you make a video where every time you say "Well that would take too long." or "That's a bit complicated so I'll just skip that." you instead DON'T skip any of it! I for one won't be bored if you ramble on, because it's still super full of knowledge I'd like to know. 🙂
agreed
He has a youtube channel where he does that!
@@hingeslevers He does have a RUclips channel but they're not really deep dives. They're all around five minutes long, sometimes 10.
Agreed!!!
+Zephyrus Auron
I'm not sure making ONE video excruriating on all these points is truly preferrable... but if he notes that he has to say five times "this would take too long to go into now", he should make five follow up videos JUST on those subjects and there he COULD go into it deep. If he prefers making shorter videos, make five series with the various aspects of each "that will take longer". next time the words then would not be "that would take too long now to explain" but "I have done a video (series) about this where i explain it more in depth"... ;-)
Hammurabi meets Ra! When old worlds collide.
D LJ A tale so epic from antiquity that the Bible tried to nick it off. :3
Lacuna Leora I think so too... :3
@@M.Linoge
Hiya. And thank you. I've registered but haven't posted yet.
Enjoying the rest from Adminning ... and not having to read every thread and deal with troublemakers like you ;)
But I got bumped from AF so I'll start posting on ADO soon (when Aliza can afford my consulting fee).
Good to see that nearly everyone (who's anyone) made it across.
Clash of the Æons
Call Sargon!
Dr Josh and Megan make all this stuff very accessible. Well done Digital Hammurabi and thank you Aron.
Ok ok what about this. 1v1 debates can't get me off anymore.
WHAT IF we do:
Aron Ra, Dr.Josh, Paulogia and Hugo and Jake
VS
Kent Hovind, Ken Ham, Ray Comfort and Mario.
ALL ON THE NON SEQUITER!
>:D
Kirk can come too
The entire Internet would implode!
Ken Ham is a tool. Well, so is Ray Comfort. AND.....well.....Why not I would watch that lol
Yes. Good idea
Just get those four christians debating each other, and they would do a better job defeating chrstianity than any atheist.
2 scholars who openly admit when they are out of their own area of expertise yet still know a lot more than the scholars in that particular field. Humility is a virtue!
Christian's one moment say it has to be taken literal what's said, then they say it has to he taken poetically
So much for God not being the author of confusion
They're ignorance isn't a reflection of God.
It’s almost like the Bible should be read in context! I encourage you to read it in context and realize that God didn’t write a science textbook, so the Bible shouldn’t be taken that way. But I assure you that the historicity of Jesus’ death and resurrection demands a response. Look into this book before you throw it out so readily.
@@SFT49 Most atheists are atheists due to reading the bible.
22:30 When I was pregnant with my son, I cut a pretty deep gash in my finger while cooking. My great-grandmother (who would've been 95 this year) dramatically screamed in horror & tried to cover my eyes, exclaiming, "Don't look at the blood! It'll mark the baby!!" She legitimately believed that the mere sight of blood would cause my son to have a birthmark.
@Lorenza Semaj McCoy Jr. Haha!! Yes! Are you from the South? I feel like a lot of that shit is more prevalent down here.
You wanna know what's really funny? My son does have a sizeable birthmark on his upper leg, but I never let Granny see it, so as to not "confirm" & feed into her nonsense.
I really don't get it that your country put a man on the moon.
😦😧😩😭
@@mortenolsen838It makes more sense when you realize that they were just overgrown ICBMs and no one had proven the moon didn't have oil yet.
Well don't keep us hanging - DID HE? IF not can you add it to the list of religious BS?
My wife seriously believes that if the palm of your hand itches you will be getting some money soon. I've asked her how that works. Is there something out in the world that tracks whether or not funds will be given to you? And then some type of signal must be sent to you somehow so that your palm will become itchy but I have no idea how this works. She just rolls hers eyes and says "stop being a smart ass, all I know is that it works".
Yay for science!
Poor guy, having to deal with 'ancient aliens nutters' Hahahahaha
A genuine guy, a genuine doctor too. Makes a refreshing change. ☺
Oh man, I feel bad for this guy, having to deal with the ancient alien freaks all the time.
I love the way Dr Bowen corrects himself as he's talking. "No one believes th... No one in academia believes that-" To me, that's a sign of someone who knows what his words sound like to a listener, and is also a sign of someone willing to adapt and correct and, basically, be open to the idea of being wrong. Something sorely lacking in some quarters. The "I'm right no matter what!" position is not one that a seeker of truth ought to ever take.
It was difficult for me to follow because I don’t know a bunch of what he mentioned, but I’d LOVE to hear from this gent again.
As much as I am entertained by the drama, it is nice to see that sanity still prevails. Whenever I need a break from the stupidity, it's always enjoyable to visit your site, as well as Dr. Josh (as Skylar Fiction calls him), and Megan. It instills my hope for humanity. Keep up the good fight.
"Like a lion, has surrounded my hands and my feet..." OMG! Awesome prophecy!!! That is what my cat is doing to remind me it's getting close to cat feeding time.
"How do you worship a god that writes this way?" Lol. Best emotional appeal against religion ever.
I love the fact that God tells us things in parables. Those who are born of God understand it but those who are without don't.
Luke 8:10
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
@@faithfulservant83 Faithful servant people can understand story telling, subtext, context, metaphor, without your Christian god or belief in any supernatural anything. Just because someone doesn't think your obvious storybook doesn't mean they don't understand it. The way youve written your comment I wonder if you think you have a better understanding of what the Bible says than the man on this video who's studied every line of the thing in it's archaic Greek and Hebrew languages as well as modern translations.
Also according to the Christian Bible *everyone* is born of god, so which humans are you talking about who are excluded from that? Pretty much everyone who's got a nominal familiarity with it at least agrees that the supposed salvation is available to *everyone,* so it's available to everyone and everyone is born of god, according to the Bible, but if you don't see it as some sort of body of fact and the rule of your life then you don't understand it, and if you don't understand it it's because you aren't born of god? But everyone is born of god per the book so everyone must be able to understand it..wait I said that already.
This is literally sophistry, which is circular reasoning. We figured out it was bs back in ancient Greece.
I suppose you'll tell me I don't understand God's love, or something, because you experience feelings of fullness or connectedness and have associated that with a god. Well I've got some good news for you...it's a biological function of our brains too that's been studied, and is entirely useful and possible to self induce without ever reading anything about a religion.
@@faithfulservant83 Right so what about all that jazz that humans were created by God, exactly? How could you be created by God and not born of God?
I'm pushing you on an obvious contradiction but none of it really matters because of the complete and utter lack of evidence of any sort of supernatural being ever sticking their arm into the universe, because such an interference would just driiiiiiiip with physics. You couldn't clean up the mess enough to escape the sort of quantum level sensitive observation we are now able to do. You can believe in a benevolent deity all day long that helps you along, I really don't fight people on that..much. but just come off the religious books as any sort of proof, or as practical guides for how to think and act as if they're in line with reality...when they're just..not.
@@artosbear That which is born of flesh is flesh, but that which is born of Spirit is spirit. This is why Jesus said you MUST be born again. Nichodemus asked Jesus, can a grown man enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born again?
When you believe in Christ with your heart and confess him you will be born again which means you become born of spirit. God is a spirit. Spirits are not bound by the laws of physics. They are not material, physical beings.
@@faithfulservant83 then they don't exist, except as a story. Because absolutely every piece of reproducible observation of our universe performed independently by billions and billions of humans over centuries of work at macro micro nano and quantum levels tells us that everything that exists is bound by physics, and everything that we can't directly observe but can predict mathematically and the shape of which things can then be described by observing around the as yet unobservable thing, is also shown to be bound by the same physics of the universe.
Spirit, god, whatever old superstition are just place holders that previous humans came up with to try and explain things where they had incomplete data, before they had more thinking tools that could self-edit the observational process to check for errors. Now that we have that, anyone who uses those tools independently comes to the same conclusion, separate from others even, that they have no absolute or certain knowledge, but that the universe can be observed to behave consistently across any angle of observation at any and every level.
But those who continue to not know how to use those tools or don't understand that they even *are tools* and are still equipped with the older more blunt, less useful tools that nevertheless allowed their ancestors to survive and still work enough for that purpose, don't realise that they could have any other tool or that any tool could be better.
And worse when you claim such certain special knowledge that defies all rational observation and is even *beyond* any *possible* explanation, and say you know beyond any doubt without any way to observe for yourself or anyone else, you take arrogance of the most extreme degree and fold it into your very core, and you implicitly deny that anyone else could even possibly be *intelligent* or have any worth or any credence of any sort, unless they agree with *you*. And therefore even if they do agree with you they have no tangible credence or ability of their own because it's then based entirely upon something you give them, and that you own, and that should you change your mind, you can take away with impunity. So they must follow you or you'll break with them. And you'll allow someone you consider above you to do the same, if they agree with you but you've placed them above you for whatever reason, and *they change their minds,* you will have to either say *they don't agree with you therefore since you know ultimately, they're wrong* or *you know ultimately and since you put them above you couldn't be wrong to have done so, so if they change their minds, you weren't wrong because you must agree with them, so therefore your mind changes but you'll deny it was ever any different* meanwhile if you continue as *I know ultimately so I will break from you who no longer agree* they will think the same and say the same. And so we have branches of religion, each claiming ultimate knowledge with no observable evidence even possible, and each being only mutually exclusively possible at all, though very likely neither possible since it was all based on no evidence whatsoever, *but merely unconscious survival-reproduction success based selection and maybe some genetic drift.*
Thusly, the logical implications of claiming ultimate knowledge are the devaluing of the abilities and worth of other human beings.
Despite your inevitable protestation via scripture.
And I don't claim ultimate knowledge of your thoughts I've merely carried the real world consequences of your words' meanings and your way of asserting knowledge to their rational conclusions...using as my base..word definitions.
Ok. Is it that the bed is really high or is he sitting low to the ground? Liked the video
Both?
😂😂 Makes it look like he is sitting on a foot stool lol
IF you look at the doors behind him for perspective you see the top of the door frame and only see the top of the door knobs. You have to come to the conclusion that the bed has to be really high. Considering the height of the bed he is not sitting low to the ground.
I really enjoyed the video as well.
Haha it's a huge bed and his seat is quite low they've explaind it
No head banging here.
It's almost 2 in the morning. What am I doing?
Ikr, and it's thanks giving tommorow... or today?
@@trentonbarton809 today 😁
We are here with you. Happy thanksgiving everyone!
Illurikon Suffering with insomnia?
If you are watching YECs "answering" to questions, like I am at the moment, then I would say that you are committing some kind of intellectual suicide? At least it feels that way - just watched some good ol' Kent Hovind and some Ken Ham...
I like what he sayd about taking genre in to account. Otherwise it would be like humans 10,000 years from now reading a sci-fi novel or fantasy novel as if they were non-fiction.
Kai Green so Galaxy Quest then, aliens think cheesy science fiction is real.
Can you imagine living your entire life devoted to and following the rituals of a book only for it to have been an anthology of fiction stories, legends, biased accounts of events, and fanfics of all of the above?
Dr. Josh's channel is amazing. I'm addicted to it.
So cool, he is a great resource.
He is a *nerd resource unless you are talking about AronRa?
@@nagamaya608, Who needs to apologize to the United States and why? WHAT?
@@VibrantlyBrantly
I think Naga thinks Hovind, Ham and their ilk owe the world an apology for conning so many out of their money...
Thanks man, I've been waiting for something like this because it was becoming painfully frustrating to watch some of the most brilliant online athiest just outright denounce the Bible as fairytale without considering weather any of it relates to historical 'real world events' and that it is actually may be hidden in plain sight within the very texts in the Bible.
(the Jewish kabalah and it's superior version of metaphoric complexity next.)
That Guy I wouldn't be offering any apologies to Hovind since the guy comes prepared with his hidden perspective on the Bible and it's context which he obviously has deep knowledge of but never bothers to share , a bit of a 'con' like Aaron said.
Very cool Aron! Joshua is such a nice and smart guy. Great to hear this. Thank you.
Great Podcast - Please have him on again for another chat!
I specialised in sumerian and studied hebrew for two years, along with six years of new testament greek. I also teach to graduate level. I got a feeling some xtians are about to get pawned.
I think a live debate could be possible debate team style. 4-6 research and SME on each side, all armed with laptops. 1 moderator, 1 speaker per side, and one scribe per side (writes out or takes a stenographic record for the researchers and SME's to access if they question wording or articles cited). The moderator would be there to hold each side to whatever agreed upon time limits, prevent or fault for debate infractions like Gish galloping, straw-manning, and especially "what aboutisims" (a complete list I'm assuming is already in place for such debates, or do they even allow debates with live research teams? It just seems like it would happen I just am too lazy to look that kind of thing up), oh and gods of the gaps.I personally think moderators should have the ability to mute a speaker if they are going over time, or are not acknowledging/answering the question, reask the question or rephrase it if clarity is needed as needed to ensure the question is best comprehended if needed), and only the speakers may present the arguments, but the researchers and SME's either send their information to the speaker or they can speak with them via closed-loop communications (wifi, or Bluetooth, etc..) . SME's would be credentialed and peer-reviewed experts in their field and researchers would be... general researchers, preferably good ones with experience and speed. My suspicion would be the apologetics wouldn't accept because it stacks the game against them, but maybe glazed grandpa Ken, would consider it if he could bring his yesmen and woman up against an equally qualified opposition with similar rules. I dunno, it's just a weird fantasy billing it as the "debate to end all debates", lol, watching and seeing how each side actually would fare. Heck, I'd pay for a plane ticket and seats to that. (I didn't lay out all the "rules", but I hope enough to make the general concept understood, not that anyone reads this far on comments on youtube, LOL.
Dr Bowen is very polite. Every time Aron interrupted him right before he was going to make a main point and aron got into a tangent that really had no point to it, he was able to carefully get it back to the topic without showing frustration or impatience. Good job dr Bowen! Better than i
He is a very respectful guest.
In typing, they measure words per minute (WPM). An AronRa video uses IPGI; interruptions per guest's inhalation.
Keep them coming AronRa ! Love your video's and it is refreshing to hear you talk and explain !
great video! very interesting to listen even learned some new things it's nice to hear a fairly in depth conversation about this will have to watch more on his channel :)
I'm a Christian but I am drawn to this channel and videos like these. I'm learning alot
What makes you a christian? This word is thrown around way too much so I'm just curious.
@@edensgarden3009
Chrislittlemind is an x'tian because superstitious beliefs are difficult to justify and shake off.
Furthermore, identifying as a good person is synonymous for some people with being x'tian, providing they carefully dismiss scripture that exposes the disgusting aspects.
Keep doing that
@@stevesmith7268 it's funny to see I posted this years ago. I am now an atheist lol
If you ever come to Vegas I'd love to see you speak.
Aron doesn't use sign language.
@@Simon.the.Likeable clap.... clap...... clap......clap.... lol nice one
@@djstringsmusic2994 No need to applaud. It was an easy mark.
@@Simon.the.Likeable Well it actually made both me and my girl friend laugh. So good job :)
Nice one Dr Joshua and Aron!
Very interesting hearing from a genuine expert. Very informative video. Many thanks.
Forrest Gump got smart
Love your content
Wonderful discussion! You gentlemen are both “A great resource.” When combined..... Formidable!
Great video Aron! Thank you!!
I seem to recall somewhere mentioning that the penalty for giving a false prophesy was, just like everything else, stoning. HOW were these so-called "prophets" allowed to continue making up this stuff?
Dear Dr Bowen, please stop apologizing. You are a great scholar and do not need to apologize for your conclusions. As a listener it get a bit annoying when the apologies take up more time than then presentation of facts. That makes it unneccessarily lengthy. Love your facts, love your scholarly knowledge, would appreciate if you would just get on with presenting your facts with less apologizing. Keep up the good work!
Hermione3 Müller I didn’t see it as apologizing more along the lines of explaining how for the time certain things aligned with what ppl thought was true. Even though none of it was true in the end those who live long ago believed it to be true. It’s mans first attempts to explain the world around them. Thinking themselves to be more attuned to the things around them than they really were. But from their perspectives things made some what a bit of sense even though today it’s baffling inaccurate. Obviously there’s much much more involved.
It seems people these days don’t want to admit there are inconsistencies and wrongs because if one part is wrong than how many more can be wrong as well. So they essentially claim all is true by cherry picking things to mold truths to fit their needs.
Sorry for being imprecise. I was talking about apologies like „this is not exactly my field of expertise so i am not the best person to ask that question“ or something along those lines. I mean such a knowledgeable academic does not need to apologize again and again and again for not being perfectly prepared when in fact he is probably better equipped and more prepared/learned/expert than most if not all people watching. I was trying to say that there is no need for constantly apologizing for one‘s imperfection or for not knowing everything exactly, especially not in lengthy ways. My disabilities include a short attention span and learning disability, so it is hard for me to concentrate at all. And then it is difficult to hold the attention to the point of finally getting an answer when it is preceeded by such apologies. I missed many answers in this talk because of this. My attention broke down before the actual point was reached at all. I was sad each time some „i will not go into 5he details“ or „i have more notes here but i will not read them“ or something like that. I personally would have been much. ore interested in those notes than in the repetitive apologies about not being a New Testament scholar or not being perfect in Greek or not being entirely sure about this or that. I feel that it is sufficient to say that once at the beginning so that everyone knows but not repeat it again and again and again in such convoluted ways that the actual answer or the actual notes/contents/facts are cut short for lack of time or a feeling that they might be boring. No, they are precisely the interesting bit, the long repetitive apologies for imperfection are the boring bit. i totally understand that a scholar needs to make clear what his area of expertise is and what not, but not in every other sentence and not in a lengthy way. It came a bit across as if he does not want to admit or to realize how great he is. Dr. Bowen, you are great indeed!
Exactly,he said almost nothing. Just cheerleading for Aron’s perspective
Great work.
Thanks Aron.
I like Josh's "Oooh, a squrrel" moment near the end, LOL 🤣
Wow! What a great discussion! I went over to Digital Hammurabi, and their channel is fantastic! Thank's for having Dr. Josh on Aron, he seems like a great guy and seems extremely knowledgeable in a field that is a such a great resource for someone who debates creationists all the time. Go support Digital Hammurabi guys, go sub to their channel if you enjoyed this video!
Here's a prophecy for you: No religious prophecy will ever come to pass.
Alan Bradbury - Prophecies may they be Nostradamus or and religious prophets "work" when they are quite dubious. One can read, "When the two headed beast lift his head in the east and the city of stone crumbles then the time of the blue moon has come". So anyone can claim to have the proper interpretation. The best prophecies are the one written after the things actually happened. Some of them in the old testament are made like this.
There is a prophecy of the Jews rebuilding the temple and a world leader signing a treaty with Israel for 7 years. You can see if those come to pass.
@@keithherring7677 Oh I forgot another type of prophecy the vague over time version. Someone, will at some time do something. The longer the time frame of the prophecy it is more probable to happen. Many of my prophecies came true. I said it will rain and it came true. I said the sun will ride and it came true. I said the moon will be full moon and it came true. I even said a blood moon will happen and it came true. I said a famous person will be born and it happened. I said a war will happen and a war happened. I said peace a great empire will fall and it fell. I said a wall will break down as an American president promised and it happened.
Does this make me to a prophet? No.
Doesn't one say the earth will end in fire? so eventually it will come true it may just take another 5 billion years
THERE WILL BE WARS AND RUMORS OF WAR! 🤣😅
Dr. Josh,
Great discussion with Aron Ra.
Near the end Mr. Ra said "... and who knows what they are going to pull out of their (explative) ...".
It occurred to me in that moment that, although Mr. Skylar does not seem interested in the brief discription of my stance on religious stories prior to any on-line interaction between he and I, you might be interested in such information since you prefer to be more prepared for discussions. I am not certain how to ensure you get this description. Perhaps I will e-mail it to Skylar asking he foreward it to you.
I've had a number of debates with apologists about Tyre and it's rewarding to see others with more experience than I using the same conclusions.
Dr Josh killing it again ... Man really knows his stuff !
Get your mind BLOWN by Bowen with his books; they are effortless to read.
To me failed prophesy is some of the best evidence against Christianity. I truly believe that the verse where Jesus says that he will come back with angels to judge every person and then that some of the people standing in front of him won't die until they see him return is one of the most damning verses against the narrative. But Christians will never see it that way. Some will either argue the transfiguration or the Pentecost; but Jesus isn't coming in his kingdom in either of those and he didn't judge every person on earth. People sometimes argue the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD but he didn't return to his kingdom and he didn't judge every man alive or dead in that either. The only somewhat valid explanation is that when John had his apocalyptic vision he saw all of that. But that is still only one person and the probability of John the apostle writing Revelation is about 0%. Even if he did it can't be the same person who wrote the Gospel of John because of differences in spelling, grammar, and so on. Anyway Christians who know the Bible well usually have an excuse for this failed prophesy that suits them.
Very interesting video. I love when accedamians, specializing in the Biblical languages can point by point disprove so many false beliefs concerning the Bible. Keep posting AaronRa.
I just noticed I keep misspelling your name. Sorry about that. Chalk it up to being 65 and getting slightly brain fogged a lot.
Yay! I love Dr. Bowen. Thanks for the vid.
Jesus was supposed to return in a cloud before the High Priest died (“you will see...”). Mark 14:61-62.
Caiaphas was apparently the High Priest then and he died about 36 CE. So Jesus is just 1,982 years late.
Everyone was looking at the wrong cloud.. it was a very cloudy day.
@R Wm
That one is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. It’s pointing back to Daniel 7 where there is a prophecy about Vespasian who was emperor when Jerusalem was destroyed. There is also a view of “the Son of Man coming in the clouds” and receiving the kingdom in that passage.
He’s basically quoting Dan. 7:13-14. We’re conditioned to think “coming”
means second coming.
Wasn't Sun Wukong supposed to appear on a cloud?
@Kay B
Not sure. To get a little closer to the culture geographically and chronologically, people in the ancient near east, outside of Israel, did speak of deities “riding on the clouds”. So, there’s influence there in the language. In the Bible, “coming on the clouds” signaled divine intervention or judgement. It didn’t necessarily mean God would be visible. Like in the prophecy below, it wasn’t a visible presence, but an intervention.
The oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt; The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them. (Isaiah 19:1 NASB)
In the passage in Mark, Jesus was saying, when the prophecy found in Daniel 7 comes to pass, you’ll know that I’m the “Son of Man” the prophecy was referring to. It was fulfilled in 70 AD, so we’re considering actual events that happened in history.
Who says it had to happen before the priest died? Every eye shall see him, even they that pierced him. The dead will be raised on that day. That is how they will see him.
This dude is awesome!!!!! Thank you AronRa for bringing him to my attention, I would never have known about him if not for this video. THANK YOU one more time!!!
The ONLY reason I watch this content is the clear understanding that Truth is Evidence ...
This went in a totally different direction than I could've expected.
Discovering that The Wingnut isn't concerned with the truth was to be expected.
I've seen this guy on Skylar Fictions show, he sure knows Hebrew and Greek.
As a theist , I pretty much acknowledge everything stated in this presentation. Evangelicals are pathetic and completely destroy their own credibility by, well, I wish it was just ignorance but often some degree to outright dishonesty.
Great guy, great video, thanks Aron!
I dont understand why people think that the people who have nothing to gain by lying to them are dead set on lying to them, but instead choose the think the people who profit from lying to them are the only ones telling them the truth.
Aron, thanks for presenting to us a former preacher who finally saw the light, the enlightenment of atheism.
The amount of misquoting from mikes video is just insane lol at the very least mike plays Arons video as he’s commenting on it, this guy just repeatedly misquotes mike for the sake of “time” and it’s just ridiculous
Thank God I didn't listen to an hour and a half of nonsense I listened to the first half hour uninterrupted and then I started fast forwarding listening to five and 10 minutes at a time just to make sure I wasn't missing anything wow is this a crock
Seems like even people at the time might have disagreed about what words meant, and how phrases were meant to be interpreted, so for people looking at the text now, differing opinions about the meaning could be equally valid. Dr Joshua Bowen was great and I'd love to see more videos of him talking about how the Bible can be interpreted in different ways.
My favourite part of mark13 is when it says stars will fall from the sky. Presumably colliding with the earth if we go by their beliefs about what stars were and what would happen should they be dislodged from the firmament. Revelations mirrors that sentiment, says that stars will fall to earth like figs fall to the ground when the tree is shaken. Pretty clear indicator that the prophecy in mark 13 didn't really come true, at least the way they intended it to.
Anyway, I have a question about Mark I just thought of. You said that Mark was probably written around the time of the temple destruction (Implying because of the temple destruction), so that got me curious. If Mark was writing it to confirm to his fellow christians that it was the end times, is there any evidence to suggest that he tried to pass it off as an earlier writing by a different author, much like the forged letters of paul were?
I think this topic is of more interest to ex-Christian atheists than to atheists like me who were never believers.
I generally find atheist-Christian debates and atheist-Muslim debates fascinating because I learn things about apologetics, each religion, etc., but the prophecy debates always get bogged down in ridiculous details I can't bring myself to care about.
It's such obvious bullcrap that I have a hard time wondering why anyone believes the "fulfilled" "prophecies" of their own religion.
Have you even actually studied the bible?
I mention this whenever someone tries to argue fufillment of prophecies to me.
Have you ever looked into prophecies that were told by soothsayers and Oracle's that came to fruition.
If you're going to argue that demons are the result, then why is it that the Devil can seemingly outdo everything God can?
very informative video very nice conversation
Well we didn't talk a lot about prophecies but it was interesting nonetheless. How might we get ahold of him if we need to use him as a resource?
@@DigitalHammurabi Oh, thank you very much. I don't know what I could do. I might have to odd question about Biblical translations or something like that but I guess I'll add you to me gmail just in case anything comes up. Thanks.
Actually, something like this could be good. It would be nice to be able to say "Well, I happen to know a Biblical scholar..." etc. And of course I'll pass it on to anyone I meet who might be able to utilize your skill set more productively.
Is it just me or does Dr. Bowen's bed look really tall?
Hey brother how you doing? Love the conversation, and I say keep your foot on their necks because as much as they say religion isn't divisive...🤨I call b*******, and tell my family that. Hay I was wondering if you have received my email? Anyway thanks a lot for speaking to me a few weeks back on The Atheist Experience. You and Traci really helped me to process the whole coming out as an atheist thing to friends and family. Unfortunately haven't talked to my brother yet and it still hurts me like a son of a b****. but I guess it is what it is.
Sorry for any typos.
This is my first encounter with Dr Bowen; he is fucking awesome.
1:50
I fucking spit out my coffee lol
Woot!
1:31:09 "if i have seen further it is only on the shoulders of giants" :)
Dr. Bowen's recent chat with Aron brought me here. I've been missing out.
Aron I'd really appreciate your opinion or a directional point on Dr. Eben Alexander. I have been deconverted from christianity but am in the grieving process... what dya think to this very credible source of an NDE?
I always thought of the many nations passage from Isiah about Tyre was in reference to Babylonians style of Empire. The king of Babylon was the ruler over other rulers(king of kings), hes and her empire was made of meany nations. IE. the armies of Babylon are made of meany people from all around the Babylon and the nations it holds.
thanks Bowen for confirming that I'm not crazy.....
That is my first reaction as well. Centralized empires in the area didn't really show up until the days of Rome.
Hello AronRa!
Hi AronRa, I would like to know if you have encountered the prophecy in Isaiah where Cyrus is supposed to be foretold before he even existed? Is supposed to be fulfilled later in Daniel. How do you debunk this?
A youtube channel about assyriology?? Oh happy day. Been wanting to learn in that field Have sunscribed.
21:00 He has MS... Is he in a wheelchair? That certainly explains the level. 1:26:00
no he isn't in a wheel chair
Early onset MS may not necessarily land you in a wheelchair, at lest not right away.
Thx
Wow, Aron cleans up well.
Why does AronRa depict Mike as "complaining"? I just finished watching his videos, and he clearly goes over how he asked if he could make a response, then calmly and respectfully goes over Aron's points. There was no complaining in either video.
There were only lies.
@@MouldMadeMind
Tell me another bullshit story that's what the name of this should be an hour and a half thank God I didn't listen to the whole thing I listen to a half an hour heard some things that made absolutely no sense and started skimming just to make sure that I wasn't missing anything of importance
The Age of Reason 2 an examination of the prophecies by Thomas Paine is an excellent read. They even have it on audiobook on RUclips.
80th
I call the typical, boring "You should go see [Apologist N]" stuff Fanboying for the Champions of Christianity. Or whatever religion is relevant, anyway.
Champion-Fanboying is, I believe, due entirely to the messianic nature of religion. Prophets and chosen ones and... whatever term you want to give the magical figures, it infects the thinking of theists into believing that what is being said matters not one bit because it's who is saying it that matters.
We've been seeing it for ages. "Oh, you're making videos about Kent Hovind? He's low hanging fruit, you're too scared to address a REAL apologist, like Ray Comfort". It usually has that loaded, demeaning language attached to it, too. As if Ray Comfort's arguments, which are functionally identical to Hovind's, are better because Ray Comfort is making them instead of Hovind.
It also seems to come in waves. When one apologist lose favor (I.E. is no longer considered the current Champion, the chosen fighter defending the honor of the faith) and you've thoroughly exposed Ray Comfort for the idiot he is, people replace 'Hovind' with 'Comfort' and 'Comfort' with the next guy. "You're afraid of a REAL apologist, like Ravi Zacharias". And the cycle goes on...
William Lane Craig stayed at the top for a long time, mostly by avoiding any obvious scandals like going to jail, exposing his banana fetishes, getting caught snorting meth out of a male prostitute's ass crack, building a giant rotting boat-shaped warehouse and admitting in public that he's too stupid to ever accept being proven wrong, but then he was replaced with the most unsophisticated one of the bunch, Sye Ten Bruggencate, whose argument boiled down to "I'M RIGHT AND YOU KNOW IT YOU LIAR" followed by pooping in his diapers, but there are always fanboys of other Champions waiting to point at the next dunce waiting in the wings for his big moment. Like Winger.
The whole thing is boring. It wouldn't matter if Bill Gates or Adolf Hitler is making the argument. An argument isn't wrong just because a man is making it, or right just because a woman is making it. An argument isn't wrong because a tax-fraud is making it, and an argument isn't correct just because you've never been caught abusing kids. Arguments stand on their own merit.
The same Champion/Messiah worship of religion is often seen in the way theists try to attack people like Darwin or Dawkins. "Oh yeah? Well Darwin was a racist!" and such. So what? I mean, no he wasn't, but even if it were the case, how would that make evolution false? Theists are so trapped in that way of thinking that they can't seem to understand that attacking a famous scientist means nothing. If a child molester tells you it's raining outside, and it's raining outside, the rain doesn't stop just because a rapist said so. If a murderer says 2+2=4, the entirety of Mathematics doesn't get invalidated just because a bad guy used math one time. If Kent Hovind goes to jail for tax fraud and then gets out nine years later and starts selling fake cancer medication to gullible morons who'll end up dead because of him, it doesn't mean the Earth wasn't surrounded by a magical water bubble in the past. An apologist being a piece of shit (as they all are) is entirely separate from the apologist being right or wrong. Was there at some point a magical water bubble surrounding the planet? No. Why? Because magic isn't real and stuff falling from orbit wouldn't cause a flood, it'd sterilize the planet with superheated steam and water isn't a stable enough substance to float above the atmosphere for any length of time before de-orbiting.
So who the hell is Mike Winger? It literally does not matter. He could have fifty legitimate PhDs (and I say legitimate because apologists rarely do) or be caught giving handjobs to the homeless in front of a pre-school and it wouldn't matter. His arguments are what matter, and if he's arguing that biblical prophecies have been fulfilled, his arguments are gonna have a bad time.
*eyes glaze over* well just so u know I lasted as long as I could
It's always nice to see people who are so enamored with their ignorance that they'll comment specifically to tell you they have nothing useful to say.
Do yourself a favor and shut the fuck up next time. Is that short enough for your ritalin-deprived attention span?
Mining your back catalog ⛏️⛏️⛏️
LOL at AronRa's Hovind impression! Spot on!