Really important intervention into this contentious topic. Big shout out to Esperanza and the proletarian feminist line on the sex trade of being ruthless with the oppressors but supporting the oppressed and exploited - and importantly recognising that exploitation rather than encouraging the oppressed to see their oppression as somehow liberating
It makes me sick to see my friends turn 18 (usually coming from adverse circumstances) actually thinking about making barely legal p**n. I advocate for workers rights but the s*x industry loves taking advantage of the young and my friends can't see that. I think we need to give people of marginalized genders more options with guaranteed rights so they can actually consent to s*x. (Without the corrosive force of money playing a factor). But I still want to support workers in the s*x trade.
I think two things can be simultaneously true: 1. There is value in legalising sex work so that sex workers have the same protections and rights as other workers 2. We need to fight for a world where people are not forced into sex work with the threat of starvation Aotearoa New Zealand has legalised prostitution and a welfare programme and while the industry is far from free from abuse and the welfare programme is not enough to live on, it's... a start.
true that legalising sex work would possibly help in the short term. There needs to be more though. Porn is legal and a billion-dollar industry, it does feed the toxicity of humanity with the way performers are treated or even how sex is performed. If prostitution were legalised I think change needs to happen in our culture first.
Sex work is decriminalised in New Zealand, however this is not extended to migrants. Our welfare is barely relevant to the conversation where the cost of living is so high and the threshold for legal earnings being so low, grey market work is necessary for a huge quantity of beneficiaries and sex work is certainly a significant options. Observationally, our low wage economy also incentives sex work as a side hustle particularly for young people.
@@allisondoak9425 I agree with everything you said. I'm just saying in a perfect world we would have a decriminalisation of sex work, a living universal basic income, and legal protection for sex workers including migrants.
So, I’m going to be very upfront about my perspectives and my biases here. I’m a former full service sex worker and former stripper. I’m poor, queer and disabled. But, I’m white, and I also worked (when speaking of fssw) in legal brothels and as a legal sole operator who advertised online, in Australia. That makes me very privileged in this discussion, and it’s important to recognise that. I get the impulse to go straight in with the defensiveness. Because when it comes to SWERFs, they use the existence of sex slavery, sex trafficking and survival sex work, particularly by people of colour and those in the global south, as a stick with which to beat sex workers like me. I really honestly believe that they don’t care about sex workers in the global south, or those who are trafficked, any more than they can use them as a weapon in their arsenal. And so, a lot of the more privileged sex workers like me tend to get really defensive. I think that’s understandable. When it comes to SWEEFs, they treat me either as a helpless victim, or as one person once said to me, that I was the cause of all sexual assault in my area. There is no in between. I’m either a victim or a villain, and I’m dehumanised. I would also like to note that while I am very privileged in this discussion as a sex worker, I think that it’s also pretty necessary to point out that almost all of the SWERFs I’ve had contact with are white, middle class, cishet, and abled. They also have no personal experience of the industry. They are using the least privileged as a way to hurt those who have less privilege than they do, and that’s not okay. I think that my voice and my perspective is valid and worthwhile, and certainly worth more than that of white feminist SWERFs. But- in defending the position of people like me, I think we (sex workers in a similar portion and our allies) do tend to be very black and white, we do tend to spout a very basic narrative, we do tend to be very defensive. It reminds me of when Contrapoints pointed out that some trans feminine people won’t engage publicly with the male privilege discussion, because it’s so often used as a stick to beat them. I feel similarly about discussing the more nuanced side of the conversation. We try so hard to fight stigma and to fight for safety and dignity, that we do draw a very thick line between sex exploitation and sex work. And that line is honestly not so thick. I do honestly believe that full decriminalisation is by far the best option. Full or partial criminalisation hurts all sex workers, but I think it especially hurts those who are the most vulnerable. And I think we as more privileged people in the sex trade (or formerly in the sex trade) need to also be lifting up the voices of the most vulnerable and least privileged. That’s a big issue that we have right now- a lot of us are so busy defending ourselves from attack, that we aren’t lifting up the voices of those who need it the most. Sex work IS real work, but it’s not the same as all other work. There are positives and negatives to the job. And the exploitation that exists within the industry (and there is always exploitation, because it’s work, and all workers are exploited in some way), is different to the exploitation that exists in other industries. It’s a dangerous job. That’s not something we can hand wave away. I think criminalisation, as well as the existence of policed borders, makes it even more dangerous. I’m glad that someone is taking a more nuanced approach to the conversation. But I also understand the reason why the conversation is as simple as it is currently (even if it’s certainly not ideal). Anti sex worker people will and do use anything that strays off the very basic black and white proclamations, as a weapon against us. Do they care that they’re hurting both those more privileged sexist workers like me (who are still usually less privileged than they are), as well as the least privileged? No. I really don’t think they care. It’s an ideological war to them, and they will use any weapon, no matter how much it hurts others (they’re much like TERFs in thy way, who throw all women under the bus when they join with anti feminist organisations in order to spread their transphobia). Sorry if this was a bit stream of consciousness. I just wanted to put forth my perspective on the matter, explain a bit about why those more privileged sex workers are as defensive as we are. But it isn’t ideal, and we do need to have those more nuanced discussions- just maybe away from where the SWERFs can see and then use it against us.
And this is another of those discussions where people like me tend to get very defensive. Because there were aspects of my jobs that I really enjoyed. As a stripper, I LOVED pole dancing. I was a dancer from the age of four. I enjoyed the social aspect, and taking my clothes off while dancing did make me feel sexy and powerful. As a full service sex worker, my favourite clients would be the older men who didn’t come in for the sex so much as just wanting closeness and intimacy. I enjoyed cuddling and talking with them, and providing that for people made me feel good. And the above is the standard, very defensive response to the idea that all sex work is rape. And while I’m definitely telling the truth about my experience with that, I’m also leaving a hell of a lot out. And not only am I leaving out the experience of those more exploited than I was, but even some of my own, less positive experiences. Because there were definitely times when I felt like a human condom, or fleshlight. When I felt dehumanised and kinda dirty, used. By some dickhead man who cared only about his own pleasure, and who didn’t use the “I have money and you need it” situation against me. It sucked. There were men who pushed against or even outright ignored my boundaries. And that’s in one of the most privileged situations that a sex worker can be in. It’s not all sunshine and roses, and because it was my body, then the exploitation, the being used, the disrespect of my boundaries… well it hits very different than in another job. But I’ve never talked about that outside of sex worker only groups, because I don’t want those experiences being used against us. And they will be. They already are. It makes it a really complex and difficult to navigate issue. And it means that sex workers have to swallow the trauma that we’ve been subject to. And again- this is as one of the most privileged sex workers. It’s much, much worse for others. And it’s tone deaf as all hell for sw like me to put on this bright, happy face, when people are really suffering. It’s understandable given the context, but that doesn’t make it okay. I do think that aiming for a situation at least as good as New Zealand’s is the way to go. It needs to be better, because migrant sex workers are still not safe there. I do honestly believe that making the sex industry safer is the best thing, but it’s not enough. We need social safety nets so that survival arc work isn’t required. We need to stop policing borders so that sex trafficking can reduce, and so that those who are trafficked have the ability to go to the authorities for help, not to be locked up themselves and in danger of even more sexual violence from the pigs. Basically, in order for sex work to be safe, to be a choice, we need to change society. Do I think sex work would still exist in a communist/anarchist/ post capitalist society? Yes, actually. For the reasons I gave at the start of this comment. It’s a service that is provided, and providing that service can feel good. I do think it would need to be VERY different to how it is now though.
@@greensquare6235 there’s a certain level of intimacy and vulnerability in allowing people inside my body that simply never occurred in any other job I’ve worked. When my boundaries weren’t respected as a sex worker, that was more traumatising than my old fast food manager just expecting that I’d work a shift I’d already said I didn’t want. Or a customer at a grocery store making mean comments to me. Because it was my body, but especially a very vulnerable part of my body that is so intimate and personal. So yeah, sex work is work, but it’s a different form of work than most jobs. And it has different dangers and (potential) traumas. There’s also a hell of a lot more stigma to sex work than other work. It is definitely not the same as just any other job. Apologies for the late reply, youtube doesn’t give me all notifications.
@@katherinemorelle7115 I live in Australia and am disabled myself as well as friends with two disabled sex workers both white and privledged in working locations. You said it all very well. I also really agree that there would be sex workers in a anarcho communist utopia. It would be very interesting to see how the distribution of sex workers changed in a utopian society and on the way there... I would imagine there would be a decrease in sex workers as desperation in society went down and more people doing sex work for survival were able to exit the profession then over time a raise in the number of people doing it as it became less stigmatized (something that making it a truely voluntary profession would imo speed up greatly as it would lose the "no one does that unless they have to" argument) I honestly can't really predict if there would end up being more or less overall. I think in a utopia rather than the line between sex work and rape / sex trafficking being awfully thin and blurry the line between sex work and sex might get more blurry as no one would need to work to survive and payment for work in general might not exist.
hi, "poc" poor prostitute here, i frequent sex trade abolitionist discussions a lot and hardly find it to be a white middle class position, attacking the line "sex work is work" doesn't mean youre a "SWERF" (again, here i am! a "sw'r"! this position can definitely be twisted up by people that are bioessentialist but this isn't the political line that sex trade abolition takes on, it comes from the anticapitalist thought and the people that do the work to analyze the conditions of the sex trade- around the world and through time- very much care about the circumstances that brought many of us into "sw" and fully understand the needs for righting societal failures that come about from hailing profit over life- which is what people are effectively doing when they're pro-sex trade expansion- the welfare of life is not guaranteed and exploited for profit. that is sad. and it's sad that so many "privileged" folks can spin their "defensiveness" for the trade as morally superior, when a focus on the sexually trafficked is constantly looked down on or dismissed as a separate phenomenon that's weird af
I did sex work for 19-26. And I was expecting to not like this but wow yes. Thank you for introducing this nuance. The general discourse is better than hating SW certainly, but it’s frustrating because I don’t feel it’s critical enough. Thanks for putting this out there
@@joshualittlewolfe8550 I totally agree with you. We proletariats made the means of production that the capitalists now own. We just need to take it back to who it truly belongs: the greater worker population.
Being very different from a straight-up rapist does not mean that you are all the way into a-okay-fine territory. Less bad, surely - just fine, not necessarily, not at all.
I don't care for the slogan "there is no ethical consumption under capitalism" just because it is so often taken as an excuse to put off ethical considerations in what you buy until after the revolution and the total extirpation of capitalism, and there's an instance of that in the attitude that sex work is just work so go for it (as a consumer) since everyone's gotta make a living and ANY way of making a living will suck here. A better way to read it may be: so long as there is capitalism, there will be buckets of shit flooding our lives, so we've got BOTH capitalism to end AND lots of bailing out of shit to do. We don't get to let the shit-bailing go just because we're going to have to keep doing it til the other task is done.
Consumers have limited choices when the means of production are controlled by the capitalist class. No amount of "ethical consumerism" is going to solve the problems caused by the poor decisions of the ruling class.
@@echomediastudios Ethical consumerism won't solve the problems, but does that mean you shouldn't consider it at all? In this context - might as well buy sex and ignore any ethical concerns.
Im one of those people that went straight to said slogan. Sometimes it feels like the choice is between principle and hands-on good but, I think, at the very least on my own behalf, that this becomes an issue only when not faced directly with the immidiate consequences of that choice of opinion. I have some thinking to do.
Agreed. Because there's definitely better and worse consumption under capitalism - hence veganism. There's also definitely better and worse consumption of sex under capitalism. So yes, we don't want to rest on ethical consumption as a solution, it is not. But it's also not helpful to just throw up our hands and say "no ethical consumption under capitalism - so why bother trying".
At this point "no ethical consumption" basically functions as an excuse to never actually do anything and to never try. How many if these people who refuse to change their habits are also the ones who never engage in activism, union activities, mutual aide, direct action, political campaigns, etc?
Unsurprisingly, I'm completely in agreement on all this. I bristle whenever I see men trying to classify sex as just another product on the shelf for them to buy. Maybe some think they're being good allies, maybe they just don't want to think about it, but whatever the origin of this belief, it's incredibly opportunistic. They don't seem interested in looking at why commodifying human bodies might be a problem at all. This is especially common with porn, where it's clearly in the interest of patriarchy to not only keep porn going full force, but recruit even more people and encourage *everyone* to sell access to their bodies. It's clear to me who that serves. I think it's a shame that this is what shapes our sexual relationships to one other. Safety for workers is priority number one, but the end goal for me was always eliminate the underlying economic NEED for people to get into those lines of work in the first place. Only then can we be safe to say the people doing this are doing it because they want to, and they can stop any time they want.
THIS! also when ppl do that they completely disregard the emotional labor that goes into sex. sex is intimate both emotionally and physically, that is non-debatable and even if one can compartmentalize their brain and ignore the emotional aspect of sex, that's not a healthy coping mechanism and can lead to mental health issues. not to mention that all the hormones released during sex are going to affect our mental state whether we like it or not. sex is different from other forms of physical labor and that part of the conversation is often ignored because when you try to bring it up people will say that you are "old fashioned" or being "too emotional". it's such a nuanced topic there's so many aspects to talk about.
Before watching this video, I have just kept the opinion that I ran into from Jimmy Snow about a year ago, and had basically just stuck with it without giving it much thought. But I've always considered it a bit of a sore spot in my ideology (and I still have a couple other holes I ought to consider, as swiss cheese doesn't provide a strong foundation for opinions). But I am very thankful I came across this video, because it brought the inherent contradictory nature of my standpoint straight to my face.
Unfortunately, there is one more hole I was reminded of that I'm not quite ready to engage with yet, and that I've very intentionally remained ignorant of. I absaloutly love meat, and it pretty much makes up my entire diet as I am not fond of fruits or vegetables. But I'm afraid if I learn the truth about factory farms and the commercial meat industry, I might starve to death. One good sign though is that I unknowingly tried spaghetti made with impossible meat sauce, and actually enjoyed it more than spaghetti with real meat. So once I can have impossible steaks, brisket, pulled pork, pork chops, bacon, chicken fillets, etc. that are indistinguishable from their real counterparts, I will take the time to educate myself about the truth. But for the time being, I intend on keeping this hole right where it is. 😅
Great video Mexie, it takes courage to admit to problems with previous work you have uploaded and it takes courage be a ''disruptor'', I'm proud of you ❤
@@Mexie I'm going to tear this video to pieces in a response video. You want to give workers free money. Give them YOUR money, don't come to me. And If I had my way, men would stop buying from these women and force them to GET. A. JOB.
As a sex worker,,,, I've always found it unfortunate that discussion about sex work has become so binary, where either it's always oppressive and must be banned, or it's never harmful and must never be critiqued. However, I understand it is like that because the stakes are very high on both sides: on one side we don't want people to be forced into sexual acts, and on the other we don't want people to be forced into losing their income and starving. From my own position in our capitalist society, I must say this debate is downright scary, and I wish I could support people who don't want to be in sex work without risking losing my chance at financial independence because my customers started feeling like oppressive men and left. Ideally we'd be able to give people options outside of sex work so they can exit it if they wish, while those who see this form of capitalist exploitation as the lesser evil can remain in it.
You concern is real. After watching this I am not sure I want to get a chair massage at the mall, much less engage a sex worker for the rest of my life. Never.
I don't remember what you said in the other video, but I'm honestly thrilled about this one. I've always felt something was off about the discussion of sex work in recent years, as if the puritanical attitudes of so many people (and the laws they create) are the only significant problem. It seemed so odd that I never heard anything about what it means for a man to buy sex - implying that this is a morally neutral act - and talk about the negative experiences of sex workers seemed to be little more than pro forma. But I doubted myself and wondered if I was just missing something. I hope you bringing these topics to center stage can help change the discourse. It's very much needed.
"what we like has been deeply shaped by capitalist algorithms, and that these things that are fed to us are addictive and like they're designed to be so. So it's simultaneously desensitizing and addictive..." The existence of these algorithms in this industry is also having a deleterious effect on the consumers of it. It teaches that sex is consumable rather than relational, and tends to reinforce relations of dehumanization and domination.
Yeah, this is one thing we never discuss in relation to sex work: it's not that sex has to be emotionally meaningful, but dehumanizing it and detaching it from the friendship or relationship you have with the other person provides an outlet for unrealistic expectations and impatience with other humans.
On qualifying porn as "addictive" though... an essential clinical criteria when talking about addiction is that the behavior (itself) and the "exagerated" pursue of it should be directly detrimental to the individual's social life and ability to feel pleasure overall. While I do think porn indirectly has those consequences by shaping the consumer's perceptions and experiences of sex for the worst, I think that this does not quite fit the definition. Not as much as an hypothetical "my girlfriend left me because I wouldn't have sex with her because I always fap to porn" scenario would. Is it because this problem is more whidespread, and therefore, "normal"?
@@izellets7361 I think this is like saying the US's economic and war attacks on the middle east is not qualified as terrorism. it's the exact same principles, same behaviours, but it doesn't "fit" the definition.
So I’m a sex worker, this is one of the first times I’ve heard this perspective. Originally I was super resistant to this but I really appreciate your perspective
It's so refreshing to hear a nuanced perspective on this issue. Thank you so much. It honestly feels healing to listen to this. Unfortunately it's not just liberals and not just men, but also plenty of leftists and women and nonbinary people, who take an unnuanced and uncritical view of this issue and who are aggressive, toxic, strawmanning, and slanderous towards those who say the types of things you say in this video. I know because I've been on the receiving end many times. The dog-piling and hate I received was exhausting and depressing. Admittedly, years ago I did not used to be as nuanced as I should have been on this issue, but even when I developed a nuanced position I still received tons of hate. Thanks again for this video. I want to give you several enthusiastic high-fives.
You are always very thoughtful but everyone makes mistakes. I don't know how many comments I have deleted in the past after some reflection or apologies I have offered..... We should all strive to grow as human beings. Keep fighting the good fight Mexie 💙
This really opened my eyes and made me realize I had a fairly limited view on the issue. I realize that it’s really easy for men in particular to naturally align themselves with discourses that don’t require them to self reflect and change as long as they can still pat themselves on the back for being woke on Twitter about sw. I have lots of reading to do now, thanks for changing my mind comrade.
It's always bothered me how liberal feminists will push the "enthusiastic consent" model, but don't apply it to sex work. Apparently all you need to confirm consent is money, even if she's not attracted to you, or not in the mood. Similarly, socialists and anarchists often describe work under capitalism as "wage slavery" because needing to work to survive is inherently coercive. If all work is coerced, then sex work is coerced sex, and I just don't see how it can be justified. Of course, any time you try to bring up the ethics of buying sex in leftist circles someone will either call you a swerf, a puritan, or say something like "Why are you sitting here debating politics when sex workers are out there DYING?" aka weaponizing guilt to discourage you from critical thinking. If we followed that logic, we wouldn't have socialism, or anarchism, or feminism or any school of thought. We can't fight injustice if we can't even talk about it.
Similar to all other jobs, I'm actually never in the mood to perform work at my job & yet I do it anyway, because we all need to work to survive. If she really doesn't want to perform her job one night or for a certain customer then she can say no. If that turns into rape then he can be punished for assault & rape. If you outlaw prostitution you only limit that person's survival options even more.
@@tefazDK Did you watch the video? As Mexie said, mopping a floor you don't want to mop is not the same experience as having sex you don't want to have. There's a reason sexual harassment is different than harassment, sexual assault is different than assault, and sexual consent is different from other forms of consent. When you bring sex into the equation it changes things, because sex is unique in the way it affects people. Yes, she can say no, but that means she doesn't get paid, so the "choice" isn't much of a choice for most workers. I support decriminalization. Criticizing an industry isn't the same as saying it should be outlawed.
@@RJRedtail Sure, but no jobs are really the same. All jobs have different experiences. And many jobs can affect people on a deep emotional level, especially when there's interaction with other people. Just saying "It's not the same", is no real argument for criminalizing a consensual transaction. Even when a job like prostitution can negatively affect someone mentally it should still be up to the prostitute to decide if the risk is worth the reward. Not for other people to remove her options.
@@tefazDK Of course all jobs are different. I'm talking about how sexual issues are profoundly different to the point where they're beyond comparison. You wouldn't put being punched in the same category as being groped for example. Yes, it's not an argument for criminalization because as I already stated, I support decriminalization. One can criticize an unethical industry while still supporting workers.
Very interesting! Not a topic I’ve thought about much but what you’re saying here makes a lot of sense. I kind of see a parallel with critiquing plastic surgery as a feminist. I’m not against it entirely, but I’ve seen people get blasted as “anti-free choice” and “anti feminist” for seemingly fair criticism of the culture around it
I've thought the same thing about how sex is depicted in media. Like Emma Watson was blasted for having a topless photoshoot, and while I obviously think she should do what she wants with her body, I think theres a critique to be had of how those images of her in a small part contribute to racist fatphobic views of women as we are only depicting white thin women in this manner. But that criticism cannot center on Emma Watson's decision making as an individual.
@@ViewerEm i'm sure the majority of people who view such nudity are merely consuming it for sexual gratification. trying to use it to make a positive statement is almost surely drowned out by the negative aspects of people continuing to sexualize her. as to the aspect of racism and fatphobia, being accepting of who and what you are is not a judgement those who are different.
@@joe42m13 if she is willing to be sexualized in that way, that is her prerogative. i know mexie spoke on objectification but artistic nudity is not necessarily catered towards sexual gratification in the same way pornography might be. the accusations of racism and fatphobia were at the fact that she was the person the magazine chose to represent in this way, following a pattern of not representing anyone beyond white thin women not in the concept of her herself being racist or fatphobic by being white and thin
@@ViewerEm What bothers me about that whole thing is that society views women by default as sexual. Emma Watson wasn't nude in the shoot, it was more of a high fashion art piece. But because she has breasts it's considered sexual. Breasts themselves are not sexual, half the humans on Earth have them. Sexualizing a female body and breasts is another story though, and that isn't what Emma Watson was doing. So she wasn't sexualized at all. it's purely people applying a narrative to shame women for being women. Same thing if a woman wears a skirt or leggings out one day. Is she being sexual in that fashion decision? Absolutely not. Will men sexualize her and shame her for dressing a certain way? Most likely. It should never be the woman to blame for things like that.
While I agree with the general points of this video, it's also necessary to take a step back and recognize that this is essentially a commentary on the discourse surrounding sex work and not on the politics of sex work itself. Effectively, this discussion is relevant for leftist spaces, mostly online leftist places and mostly men in online leftist places. That isn't a bad thing unless our concern with how men talk about sex workers on twitter overshadows our concern with the wellbeing of actual sex workers. in the global south, where I live and where most surival sex work and sex tourism takes place, sex work is mostly entirely criminalized. Moreover, the public discourse surrounding sex work is a step removed from the discussion taking place in online leftist spaces. For us leftists, the basic starting view is that work is generally exploitative, and then we add on to that the nuance that, due to qualitative reasons, the exploitation happening in sex work is especially egregious. In Brazil, where I live, the default view for the ordinary person is that work generally isn't exploitative but sex work is. My hunch is that the same goes for most of South America, Southeast Asia and Africa, which are places wherein the majority of people are conservative and religious, and also where the conditions for sex work are the worst. Hence, while it's important to acknowledge that exploitation in sex work is worse than in other industries, it's more urgent to have it recognized as work in the first place. And really, regardless of the nuances of your take, the one actionable goal remains the same: comeplete decriminalization of sex work. The smallest and most privileged strata of sex workers (those who don't do sex work to survive) are mostly safe from the negative consequences of being involved in a criminalized activity. So our discussion about the morality of buying sex shouldn't overshadow the need to fight for decriminalization. I emphasize this because the manifold complications and different takes one can have on all the nuances of sex work are an actual obstacle for pro-sex-worker political engagement when leftist communities stop focusing on a common goal and turn to in-fighting. I'm also not a fan of the gendering ot the language surrounding sex work. I understand your reasoning for doing so, but the general public already thinks of sex work in terms of male buyers and female sellers by default, so indulging in that language only reinforces the erasure of outlying experiences. Basically everyone already vastly underestimates the existence of male-presenting sex workers so I just don't see the point.
I really appreciate you putting this out here on your platform. I've seen a lot of young people on tiktok or wherever actually end up back in the swerfy domain and I think that's because of the lack of discourse in the mainstream past the Liberal narrative that when they look for affirmation of their negative experiences with porn, sex work, trafficking etc, male gaze and objectification etc and mostly find older radfem text or reactionary texts. Having an accessible materialist analysis of the problems which stands firm in decriminalisation is important. I also think that it's important we do address people on the left, particularly women, finding themselves watering down their views, particularly when they are in material analysis or personal experience, in favour of having the "right" answer with the least pushback. I think a lot of people are making themselves smaller and the discourse gets weaker to the point where "the discourse" is a negative term. I think young people especially are encouraged to pick the correct social justice position before they're even old enough to have read anything past a couple articles and RUclips videos to really inform themselves. It's not that someone has to read a lot of books to develop informed views but the older work, blogs, discussion etc online are largely lost to smartphone application Internet so younger people who cannot square the circle end up reinventing the wheel. I respect you breaking this and those who made the initial comments which made you rethink what you want to put up here. Personally my friends who are sex workers are anarchists and find all work exploitative and some of them have been really open that they do not like the idea of people watching their videos and don't respect their John's and wouldn't consider anybody who chose to buy from them a friend because it requires them to not care on a deep level what they want in the bedroom. I have seen my decrim anarchist sex worker friends be called swerfy for talking about their industry and its gross. I think a lot of the sex workers that people are listening to are very often accounts linked to selling their sex work ie only fans etc. Their opinions are valid but they are actors and they are trying to get sales. They won't get sales if they're dissing everybody who buys from them. They won't get sales from quality customers if they say that they don't like their job. They don't want customers who enjoy that they aren't enjoying themselves. You know? Of course something which pays sex workers directly or is ethically made as possible is preferable. But we are kidding ourselves if we pretend that this is the most accessible porn, or that this is the first we come across, particularly with the removal of porn from tumblr and such like this. The first place you are is pornhub. You can't even be sure what's consensual, but on top of that regardless of how much sex is on there, a particular image of very hierarchal and patriarchal male gaze objectifying hardcore is pushed into your face on the adverts and front page. Even the more bdsm female domme things are really framed in this way. I'm not going to pretend I don't watch porn, but I was definitely damaged by this specific view of sex as something that men do to women which degrades women being the main entryway to viewing sex. And of course whether the video itself is good feminist material which shows female pleasure and uses female gaze is not the only thing that matters when this is all acted and usually not a real depiction of pleasure.
Also re the end about criticism of anarchists, I think it's just that it's easier to identify as one without really organising or doing the work. A lot of people come to anarchism as a logical extension of liberation politics and social justice rather than from real solid class analysis. I can say most people in the organised anarchist left who have worked in sex work (mostly trans experiences tbh) are very clear in their understanding of limitations of the industry. They did have to be a bit more individualistically pro-sex in certain spaces due to pushback against invited sex worker speakers to events by radical feminists who actually are swerfs and the immediate need to easily justify their existence and attendance. A lot of the young anarchists who are very online, often in a bad mental health space, often socially isolated, often black and white thinkers, often affirmed by social media likes and clicks, they are not very representative of the organised anarchist left, at least in the UK, however the failure of the organised anarchist left to absorb and welcome these young social-justice minded people in and make them feel relative space is a failure of anarchism in the UK. The fact that the movement as such was largely decimated by the transphobia of a few terfs (actual terfs) being coddled and supported by a lot of the older white male left who had been looking up to these women as feminists is a failure and a tragedy in itself, Esp considering that anarchism has always been as escape for the queer marginalised and oppressed outside of the traditional leftist notions of working class issues (homeless, addicts, sex workers, peasantry, GRT community, squatters, and queer and gender variant people all often unwanted by trade union dominated leftists) and that they had so many trans people in their organisations and scenes that the ignorance was baffling. I think this split really is what encouraged more black and white slogan narratives, at least over here, because anarchist trans folk really put hours and days into nuanced discussions over and over again with people who they thought were their comrades. There were rightfully angry militant people right at the start of the bookfair event, but the vast majority of trans and sex worker anarchists had been extremely patient over the years and really used convincing logical and sometimes pandering arguments to their friends over and over, only for them to go and have a couple words with a radical feminist and all their hard work to have vanished and eventually they just drew a line in the sand because it was so painful to them for all their proper materialist analysis to be written off as "divisive identity politics rubbish" anyway. They are all still out here and fighting with real indeoth things to say on their blogs and on their Facebook (twitter and short form media is much harder to be nuanced on as everybody wants you to be on a side and takes arguments out of context to force that) and in person but it just is not as easily accessible as part of the discussion for the online left as all that twitter drama is. And its a shame, because those ex-AFED sex workers and trans folk literally have some of the best critiques of all. I'd really recommend anything about sex work from "wearetherabble" Leeds anarchist blog for one. The same person fought hard every year for groups like the English Collective of Prostitutes to be represented at the bookfair. Now the ECP are not explicitly anarchist but they do not shy away from criticising the industry in their fight for decrim. They are really solid. And its sad that they end up being overlooked because of a lot of online anarchists who have never really had a real life political home where you're around people who are supportive but not always comfortable and you can't constantly use tone policing arguments to get mad and shut down when you don't like something, but have to take some level of responsibility for feelings and practical behaviours to get things done and pick your battles and bring up longer standing issues calmly, or perhaps to work in a more validating offshoot (ie a black queer women's caucus) where you aren't being grinded down by well meaning microaggressions which divert energy constantly etc. It's not about taking away safe bubbles, it's more about realistic human interaction. I don't think real life anarchists have mastered this at all either, but I think at least we are a bit more honest and open with our failures. We can't just rely on some existing old model when we don't know how to best move forward. We have to innovate, which is hard, and splits people I to smaller groups. But there we go.
One mistake: Johns are not a class. They can be of any class. You can be critical of the role and it's position in the nexus of exploitation, but that is different from calling it a class position. Or be clear that you are not using the word "class" in the marxist sociological sense. That said, I mostly agree with your take on the subject and appreciate you calling out the uncritical slippery slope that goes pro-sex-worker = pro-sex-work = pro-sex-industey = pro-capitalist-exploitation-of-sexualized-bodies
Maybe I missed something but isn't criminalizing solicitation while legalizing sex work going to result in some really bad outcomes? This puts johns in a position where they have a lot of incentive to "disappear" or at a minimum threaten sex workers if their interaction becomes problematic. I can see how this sort of policy might reduce solicitation and thus problematic interactions overall. But it also seems like it might aggravate the unwanted behavior even further.
As a non-binary genderfluid person, the phrase "non-men" makes me very uncomfortable for reasons I can't quite explain. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be used or anything, I don't know, but it definitely does make me feel off.
Because it defines genders other than the male gender as relative to men and as an absence of manhood rather than in their own right. Women are not “non men” in the same way that agender people aren’t “non men” or “non women” and in the same way that binary transgender people aren’t “non cisgender”. All of these are whole gendered lives and experiences defined by what they are rather than solely what they aren’t.
As a non-dysphoric, non-transitioning, cismasculine-perceived non-binary person who continues to use he/him pronouns, I know that I'm not being included under the umbrella of "non-men" when it's used in contexts like this even though I'm not one. It's obvious that what's really meant when the term "non-men" is used in contexts like this is "people who get visually perceived as femme", which erases A LOT of non-binary people.
I had a conversation with someone recently who was suggesting that it was a moral failing for women to work in the sex trade. I suggested that his position was, among other failings, not applying the same "moral" consideration to the men participating. He said if it wasn't for sale, they wouldn't buy it. I walked away.
Thank you so much for making this video. I am beyond excited that someone with your platform is speaking out on this from a leftist perspective. I feel like the conversation has been hijacked, between liberal feminism and the porn industry, so that critique of the sex industry is often answered with body positivity or diatribes against shame, even though those are not the same issues. A material examination of the power relations present in the current industry -- not the utopian one, but the one which presently exists -- makes it very difficult to be anything be critical and distrustful of the industry. We must stand as allies with the women and non-men who are fighting against their exploitation.
I find myself agreeing with almost all the systemic critique and just factual awfulness about the industry but disagreeing with some of the conclusions or I suppose premises such as johns being inherently class enemies, I think the desire to buy sex while often does stem from entitlement can also come from simply viewing sex as a nothing more than a fun activity.
What is driving the desire to buy sex is completely irrelevant to the fact that John's are class enemies. No matter why they are doing it, they are still holding money over people's heads and making them perform sex acts that they likely wouldn't want to otherwise (as most in the global sex trade are doing survival work and the majority want an immediate exit), and they are exploiting their position as a man in this society which has all of this infrastructure available to make mostly marginalized women available to them for sex. "A fun activity" to the John is coerced sex (which, not all, but many experience as traumatic, including many I know who have exited the trade and are dealing with PTSD and other serious issues) to be able to put food on the table for the worker, and the class antagonisms remain (Johns wanting more for less, worker wanting to do less for more) and the structure of society still funnels marginal people into the trade for the pleasure, power, and privilege of mostly men. This all exists regardless of what John's are personally thinking when doing it - their individual reasons aren't relevant to the critique of John's as an institution. It also exists regardless of whether some SWers (usually more privileged) don't mind the work and don't experience it as traumatic - this is great, but also sells out the people who do, and normalizes an entire global infrastructure that grew out of misogyny, private property and slavery. And frankly, if John's are doing this casually and just thinking "hey this'll be fun" and not thinking about this whole patriarchal class system that they're participating in, not to mention the colonial/imperial implications, then they should think much, much more critically about it, and think again before doing it. Whatever their reasons, and regardless of whether they're a "nice person" (whatever that means), I can not see what they're doing as anything but misogyny, entitlement, and exploitation.
@@bootyspoon4675 yea thats how i feel too, i see what you mean but "class enemy" many "johns" are dirt broke and have no interest in violence and assault or even coercion, some men would be fine with a refusal and be understanding, alot of "johns" are just incel teddy bears, some of the rhetoric is aggressive, borderline violent and scary, but again i get where its coming from but its one of those newer perspectives that many arent ready for on both sides, not ALL "johns" are class enemies imo, That undermines how capitalism perverts what it means and is to be a male as well as a female from a young age, johns are victims of capitalism too
Back when I lived in Toronto, I worked providing harm reduction services, including services specific to women who did sex work. I've seen the violence up close, connected women to the bad date coalition, etc... You're right that this is an incredibly multi-faceted industry, and that we can't separate a persons individual choices from the systems they operate within. Some people's choices are more constrained than others. I will always land on the side of supporting decriminalization and sex workers rights to organize, but I agree that you can do that while also being critical of the industry as a whole.
@@madnessends2477 I'll be honest, it's been 3 months since viewing this so I can't really remember Mexie's talking points with any sort of clarity. I'm not doubting that strawmanning may have or did happen. I think I was just trying to state there's a lot of nuance in the lived experience of sex workers. I also have met so few sex workers actually looking for exit from the industry, and exit strategies are so rarely viable anyhow, that any sort of abolitionist or Nordic model is absolutely nonsensical and not grounded in evidence based research or models of best practice. Hence why I stand behind decriminalization, harm reduction, and a labour rights approach. I'm hoping that adds some clarity to what I meant to get across.
I have had such a journey with porn. I started out in jr high, looking out of curiosity. Then as I got older I went into a kind of shame cycle because I was wanting to be more committed to my church, but porn was seen as a sin and so every time I'd fall to temptation, as it were, I'd have to go through this self-hating shame and repentance cycle. Fast forward a decade plus of this, I eventually got with my partner who is aesexual and has no issue whatsoever with me finding enjoyment in porn. Around that time I got away from those religious beliefs that had such a negative effect on my mental health and started enjoying porn without guilt. THEN.... I found a NEW reason to critique my porn consumption.... I've also had to go on this journey you're talking about here as I've come to realize how harmful porn is to the world and to the performers. I have personally had to fight for the position that I don't believe porn has been harmful for me, I haven't done any of the things anti-porn groups say it will do (such as watching more and more extreme material, trying to coerce my partner into sex she's uncomfortable with, becoming desensitized and disinterested in my partner, etc. None of that has happened with me.). However, after learning what I have and considering the possibility that I may have harmful mindsets even if I'm not aware of them or act on them, I've given up on porn. I noticed right away that once I made the commitment to not look at porn, it was as if I started noticing for the first time a _certain_ way I was looking at women around me. It's weird and creepy and I can't un-realize that it has had some effect. So yeah, I appreciate this video. I always like discovering where I'm wrong and where I can improve, and I think the lib mindset surrounding sex work is a vital one to re-evaluate.
Good on you friend. I'll be honest, I find pr0n genuinely addicting - I can't go 2 weeks without it, and when I start watching I sometimes binge-watch videos for hours, seeking the 'right video'. In the past I've tried to justify it, thinking I only watch homemade stuff, nothing extreme. But I do think it's addicting, for me at least. And it's available everywhere these days, even RUclips if you know what to search for.
I feel like as well sex work buyers tend to be considered as gleeful sociopaths who just need to have limits placed on them (and the same with a lot of discourse around men in the patriarchy), whereas this is also another imbalance that needs to be addressed. Especially the necessity/demand for sex work in the first place. Lots of sources meant to empower say that sex work has been part of civilisation forever- which to me reads more as a criticism of the disconnection and loneliness in civilisation than an endorsement. Buying sex or intimacy hasn’t ever been a part of a functional relationship lol (this to me doesn’t include poledance/strip club performances or watching porn of consensual adults- treating it as art rather than just objects/tools to get endorphins from). The relationship between an webcam model and an internet buyer is most akin to a drug addict- one sided, hollow and unsustainable (either economically or just internally), and the same with prostitution. In order for it to maintain the model of this and not become an actual normal relationship instead of sex work it has to be transactional. This is not the same as other ‘work’ such as looking after kids or performing art or farming/hunting which can take place without coercion and offer mutualistic benefits (if you’re in a community with good relationships). An unpaid prostitute is an oxymoron- which again doesn’t mean anything is morally bad about the prostitute or even necessarily the buyer, just that the system of relationships/society they both exist in (and are) needs to be addressed including understanding the loneliness and obvious relationship insecurities of the buyers/coercers.
amazing video and so true, all of it. I also really admire you started off with an admission of where you had fallen short before, that was very nice to see that humility and lack of defensiveness. leftist men often times do not want to do that hard work of self critique and deconstruction of the things in society that have ingrained ideas of toxic masculinity within them, and how their tastes and interests in consuming porn or buying sex is harmful. it is an easy out to default to the 'sex positive' line of consuming 'ethical' porn or to brush off a deeper analysis of sex work than just defending the rights sex workers should have. sex workers being given support and a safe way to do their trade is the short term harm reduction of capitalism, the end goal is to abolish the need for people to do sex work at all
U won't get grief from me because this was on point. I don't see how it's contradictory to be pro for the worker and against the trade when we know it's exploitative. Any argument otherwise is blatantly hypocritical.
As someone who currently struggling with all the questions, I appreciate your video. I also wanted to validate your hesitation for not going this far: it could be a trade off of less people watching (how many people you want to influence) v.s. where we truly want to make a difference. Thank you for going through all of these and was able to upload this video which I believe it is life changing for me.
I want to say a lot, but I'm afraid. I just hope one day man and women can see sex as something beautiful, necessary and that people can say that they want sex just because they want sex without expecting something (money, relationships, security).
Great video! Next video should touch on why sex work and drugs are being kept "illegal" yet somehow you can find drugs and sex for sale almost anywhere you go.
@@discountchocolate4577 Yes definitely, only thing I disagree with is the "unregulated" or "unmonitored" part. Someone has to do the (their) dirty work.
My first job was working at a convenience store which was open 24 hours per day, and employees were working completely alone in 8 hour shifts. During our orientation, we were given a training on what to do if we were raped on the job. When I tell people this story, people are usually shocked and horrified that my employer seemed to consider being raped as an acceptable risk - after all, they were more willing to train us on what to do afterward than they were to prevent it in the first place. I think it's really telling that people dismiss sex workers' experiences of being raped on the job by telling them they could have been raped in any job. It seems unlikely to me that they would say the same thing to workers in other industries who have been raped on the job. There is a passive acceptance of violence against sex workers in that dismissal.
I'm really glad you pushed back against Esperanza's Nordic model thing. I think she does a good job of critiquing liberal discourse but at the end of the day criminalization is a liberal tool. I've been disappointed to see Red Nation and AngieSpeaks having her on with essentially zero pushback to those positions.
I also think her thing about sex work not being work comes from a ML perspective that fetishizes "work" as a good thing, despite sex work fitting well into the category of other highly dangerous capitalist work. If your goals are focused on using the state to make people work, then it's not surprising that you want work to have a good connotation. Sex work is work, and that's not necessarily a good thing.
No real critique here, but I am a bit confused as to what ending coercion actually looks like to you. Certainly, people should be guaranteed enough resources for a basic living. And we should pursue full employment so anyone who want to work has lots of good options. That would massively reduce coercion, but I'm not sure it would end it? If sex work can get me some more resources or even social status, I figure I'm somewhat coerced into it, even if there are alternatives.
I think one of the core issues of liberal sexual liberation politics that also permeates a lot of leftist spaces is the devaluation of sex as a meaningful interpersonal relationship and sexuality as an integral part of one's psychology and emotional self. Capitalism banalization of sexual relationships and the concept of "sex sells" has led to viewing sex as something no more meaningful or impactful than having a cup of coffee with a friend (I've had someone actually argue this at me) and thus something you can just buy and sell and exchange without further thought or repercussions. But it is not, and you need not go further that seeing how the wrong sexual experiences can be deeply traumatizing to see how actually important sex and sexuality are in our psyches. I also think that this concept does so well in liberal and leftist spaces is by getting around the issue of objectifying people (mostly women as mexie says) by positing that sexuality isn't actually that serious, it's not really an important part of who you are as a person, so everything goes. In a sense it's just objectifying the part of a person that deals with sex and sexuality, but since it's not objectifying "the person" it's fine (not a great analogy, I know). And none of that means that we should treat sex as something sacred and untouchable, or that we should be puritanical or ashamed of it. I think there's a middle ground where we can acknowledge that sex and sexuality are meaningful and important without mystifying it and shaming its presence and on the flipside we can be sex positive and normalize sex and sexuality without ignoring and devaluing the importance they has for our psychological and emotional well being. All this relates to the discussion of sex trade because I don't think people talk enough about the enourmous amount of emotional labour that goes into it. If we accept that sex is related and affects our psychology and emotional state, we have to talk about how turning it into something you do for monet to survive does to you. In leftist spaces there's a lot of talk about how a lot of work areas involve emotional labor in a way that is very taxing and degrading, but for some reason all that disappears when talking about sex trade. It feels like people assume that sex trade is something easy and mechanical like moping a floor like Mexie said, and that it doesn't involve a lot of psychological and emotional factors, and that's one of the most objectifying and dehumanizing things I can think of.
I think I have a similar view to yours, I don't like the hook up culture (afraid to catch feelings) I believe sex is an emotional experience that can strengthen bonds and emotional connections so I think devaluing it like this is kind of sinister.
YEp! I feel ashamed that I still like things like professional pole dancers etc and boudoir. I ealize that I only ever enjoy stuff that feels like a celebration of humanity/the prettiness of an individual. When it comes time to pay money, I realize that I am treating them like an art peice and not a real woman that I would go on a date with or just be friends with. I am happy that the autistic parts of these professions (like pole dance) are being seperated from the exploitation and can just be pole dance classes for my friends who want to have a physical activity
@@philipb.3758 I feel like people should internalize that the sex workers ARE people who have friends and go on dates. This kind of falls into madonna/whore complexif you can't grasp the idea of being friends with sb who manifests their sexuality in a certain way
Amazing video!!! I'm so happy that you didn't strawman anyone, bc this happens so much in the discourse about sex work (idk what term to use here tbh). As you mentioned, accusations of swerf-ism are being thrown at anyone who has critiques of the status quo surrounding the practises of selling sex and a lot of leftists are pretending that this line of argumentation is exclusive to liberal individualism when in reality there are a lot of people who acknowledge that most work is exploitative under capitalism while still seeing the uniquly exploitative aspects of selling sex in this regard. On the other hand you didn't do that annoying "sex work is inherently bad regardless of circumstances" argument which is often used in extremly patronizing way. It's great that you acknowledge that there exist sex-workers who don't try to escape. I feel like many rad-fems (not even neccesarily SWERF's) focus dogmaticly on eliminating practice of sex-work instead of eliminating conditions that can coerce (economicly or otherwise) people into doing sex-work they don't want to do. It's also great that you mention drawbacks that sexworkers themselves can face when we try to solve this problem with rigid criminalization (and the anarchist critique of not relying on the state and police in protecting sexworkers) So after i praised your video for few minutes I want to actually add sth to the conversation, haha. What do you think should be the expectation of men (and people of other genders) who want to be true allies of sexworkers? Will true allyship require not buying sex/watching porn in any way? Or to ask this question diffrently: do you think that there can exist a way to ethically buy sex under capitalism? Bc there are sexworkers who don't want to stop being sexworkers, who don't work under pimp, etc. but it doesn't necessarily mean that buying from such sexworkers is making the act of buying ethical. I'm curious what is your opinion on that?
Ngl I've been arguing against sex industry abolition for a little while mainly because I haven't been able to get my head round this particular critique. The way you've explained it here actually made it make proper sense for the first time and help break through some of the individual liberalism block that I had so thanks. Not sure if it's moved me to agree with everything in the video but at least now I understand the points to grapple with and definitely shifted me a tonne in half an hour. Great work comrade
Hear hear. While I’m coming from a different place, and was challenged in different ways, I absolutely agree that this was a powerful presentation of ideas, that made all sorts of sense. Thank you for your labor here, Mexie. You’ve created something good, that will help create other future goodness.
I would say until capitalism is abolished we can’t abolish the sex trade. I am inclined to support de criminalization now and abolishing sex work after. To be pro sex worker, but anti sex work.
@@julesjules5439 Right - and the most compelling arguments from sex workers are against attempts to abolish the sex trade. But that's not the end point. We can still talk about what the existence of the sex trade means and how participating in it is harmful and misogynist without allowing increased police power to be the only solution to that harm. Which the question to ask then is what can/should be done about the sex trade? And while Mexie doesn't precisely say these words in the video, I think at least one individual conclusion might be "don't participate in it".
@@camipco I suppose our best course is de criminalization and making sure the discourse has criticism focused on the industry and not those who are forced into the trade- kinda reiterating what you said… … beyond that advocating for socialism or at the minimum social welfare to improve material conditions so as to hopefully reduce the need to enter the trade.
Devil's advocate here, but is the advice then to not watch porn or hire workers in the sex industry? What about guys with disabilities who are unable to get a partner? Is it really fair to call their desire for some form of sexual gratification a sense of entitlement?
Sex is a biological human need. Humans are wired to want sex. Most people are heterosexual. Some men will always struggle to attract women and so they may turn to sex workers to satisfy their needs. Do you have any advice for men who want sex but who cannot get sex? What are your thoughts on self help?
I've had a difficult time explaining to people how I'm PRO sex-worker and anti porn industry - it seems very contradictory, but I think you've done an excellent job opening up a good portion of this extremely multi-faceted subject that explains a lot of what I can never seem to nail down.
Amazing video, synthesizes the perspectives of a variety of women, particularly the sex workers in the global south (and not just the first world white sex workers who have a very different experience). I didn't understand how this perspective is necessarily Marxist Leninist though, I m not an ML (I m male from global south) and I find 100% of the views laid out in this video agreeable and they can be substantiated from feminist anarchist perspectives.
Sex work is work, but we should work towards abolishing the violent and exploitative relationships that push people into it. No one should have to or feel the material need to sell their sex to make a living. There is merit in legalizing and decriminalization of sex work and itd peripheral aspects, but it will never be enough to stop there. We need to change the abusive relation that forces people into it and stop viewing sex and people as a commodity to be bought and sold. Its dehumanizing. As usual, you kick ass Mexie
This is very welcome, because I was critical of that video and I was surprised given how much respect I have for you (love braiding switchgrass btw, thanks for that). Having organised with and been taught a lot of my politics by organisers in the sex industry
If we would have a look on a country level only, without international trade & travel. Would you say a UBI securing basic needs and legalized sex work would solve the issues of coerced sex workers in that country?
Thank you for sharing more of your thoughts on this. It has bothered me to see this issue completely watered down. I’ve always felt that the sex work discourse on the left is very convenient for a lot of men who hide behind it, touting “sex work is real work” so they can seem like feminists when really they are just horny. Like they are only interested in this conversation because they get something out of it, not really acknowledging the more nuanced implications of their behavior.
Thank you, Mexie! You really put the finger on several things I've felt about the debate about the sex trade but have not been able to articulate myself. And I also want to thank you for your humility in the opening apology.
Excellent video! A question if you care: In your video, you emphasize how porn and the sex industry contribute to the male gaze, toxic masculinity, and the objectification of women in society as a whole. In the video you also support being supportive of sex workers while being ruthless with the system that operates them. Given that, what do you believe the end goal is for the sex industry? Do you advocate for one day (hypothetically when the system of capitalism has been dismantled in favor of a humanitarian one) having no sex work? Do you think it is possible to live in a society where sex work/porn as we know it exists yet misogyny doesn't? -genuinely curious
Change needs to be made on a cultural level as well. The stigmas attached to people in that industry need to go and I hate to say it, but the way the media presents sex workers and people in that industry perpetuate these issues. So many movies portray a person in the industry as a drug addict, dirty or barely human. How much music involves violence toward people working in the sex industry? I hate to blame art for being what it is, but when it can influence boys into becoming toxic men, I think something needs to change.
@@greensquare6235 no no, I mean a shift in thinking from the people. like think of how cigarettes were deemed super cool and now that thinking has changed and there's a huge and steady decline in smokers. The shift in culture and perception among people brings about change. If we all think people should be helped rather than abused then things will change
Did anyone else notice that AF3IRM, the organization that Esparanza works with, has taken a hard line against criminalization. I'm very much in agreement with men not consuming the bodies of sex workers. Yet the underlying message of the group has some SWERFy undertones.
I had the original video in "watch later" list ever since it was released, but now when it this one became, I finally watched it (before this one). So what I write now, is result of watching both videos. About the question of sex work. I was thinking in this way: let's say, it is year 2150, socialism won long time ago in our society, our culture is reformed to better, socialist (or maybe even communist) society. When we look now our so society, what we see in context of sex work? Does it exist, and if it does why, and what kind it is? If it does not, why, and how it ended? Why I ask these things, why I try to define fate of sex work in socialism? Well, I see that it is important to understand what is our goal, what we want to have (and why). This does not, or must not blind us from present day situation, but also, present day situation should not blind us from our long term goals. We need realpolitics in today, but also we should have idea what we want to be in "end". My answers for those question of our society in year 2150 is, that most of sex work vanished when we built society where everyone have decent living standards, and no fear to lose them. (I happen few days ago watch 2h video about discussion between four western people who visited in North Korea, one of them many times because of her work, and three others just once. And one point there was talking about salary, and that salary in N.Korea is not big, but in other hand, state gives free apartment, free health care, free food, etc. So salary is kind of money which you can use for "luxury", for things you do not need for living, but what you may want to have. Well, idea is not very new for me, but I've not thought this model for long time, but I ended up to think, that "isn't it kind of UBI? State just does not give you money, but instead of apartment, or share of food, etc". So, now that idea is bit stuck in my head - does not mean that would be nesesserily model in 2150, but let's say, that in my answer it is. That everyone get for free all basic things, and salary is used only for "luxury" - games, phones, theatre, what ever..). But there may be smaller amount of people who make their individual choices, live their life in unusual ways. Something what we may define as sex work. But it is completely what they want, and they make their own rules on this, and it is not based on oppression or oppressive structures. (Well, my answer does not think about porn, or so, but anyone can think in their answer that too). And my answer for today's situation is more like this: Selling sex isn't work (profession) we are planning to crate in long term, we should not support such development, but of course all who work in sex related work - any of them - are our comrades, our class mates, and based on what they say and feel best, we should give them full support. That we, who do not work in sex related works, we should "be artillery" for those who work, but they should be the ones who say where they want the support, they should be the ones who are the standard-bearers in that front of class war. Because it is their life, their experiences, they know best all the details. So, all this text what I wrote so far in here, at least I see, that it is very same as you(/Mexie) said in this newer video. In different word, from different direction, but outcome is same. --- In first video, I think there was lot of important things what you said. Especially based on your personal feelings or experiences. Even when it is not absolutely new, it is still important that it is said and heard. I mean section where you said things that you felt in past that your part is make men feel good (or so). I think this kind of things should be heard - both, men and women... in order to learn away from it. I kind of want link that video for my "mundane" friends, who are not so into politics... because I want people to start learn away from old bad habits... --- Third thing... this came to my mind during first video. It is about used word. About word "patriarch". I agree things included in that word, and why such structure is wrong, etc. And historical reasons why ended to use that word for these things, for these definitions. But my consider is this: we should need try to win masses on our side, in order to change culture in this. And I see that such word may not be very agitating for many mundane males. You need first explain lot of details, and that time mundane person may already lost attention - if you know what I mean. Because change culture, is something what vanguard cannot do, we need masses on our side in this. We need everyone (well, as many as possible) to join change our culture(s) in this. So, what I suggest in this, is not really change word, but create synonym for it. Maybe some one else would create better synonyms in here, but for now, I suggest just have "hierarchy" word used as "patriarch" in mundane situation. As a socialists, we are against all kind of hierarchies in society, and we see that gender questions are not fully out from socio-economic questions or -hierarchies too. But if speaking about "patriarchal society" for mundane male, it may easily bring question "why it is my problem?" and then to discard whole topic. And same is for word "feminism". I would suggest maybe "gender equality" as synonym for agitation situations (until someone have something better to suggest). Because both genders are oppressed, but not in symmetrical ways. Maybe more like "spiral tower". But it is important, that men, males are part of fight, in similar way as middle class should be part of class war, not only poor people. Male are often "middle hand" in gender questions. Both in oppressors and oppressed in same time, and often without realising it themselves. Power structures in this will broke down, when men realise their situation in both directions, and start change it. Of course these videos are not meant to be so agitating, but instead more discussion and thinking among comrades. I don't mean for that, just that came to my mind during "the original video". --- English is not my first language, I would had probably more details for my arguments if it would be. So, excuse my clumsiness in this. It's life. PS. I want add - mainly for first part of my text, but maybe also just as general statement, that moralism is never answer for anything in politics. With moralism should never do decisions, or demand others to do decisions. Always by cause&effect-chains. Meaning that stigma is something what should never done for our comrades, our classmates on sex works. But not only in that question, pretty much in everywhere. Pressuring some one to feel guilty, is not way to build better society. Help to find new ways, is.
This is so similar to the need to differentiate s*xual violence from other kinds of violence. Like it is not the same *kind* of violence to be beaten up as it is to be humiliated in a s*xual assault kind of way.
Definitely. I had this "interesting" discussion with a man. I said that every time I walk back home alone in the dark and I see a group of man in front of me, or see a man walking behind me, I instantly feel afraid. Afraid that I'm going to be raped and if survived, dealing with years of trauma which sometimes lead to suicide. This leaves trauma and often PTSD in survivors. I would rather be beaten up and left with no phone and money. And he dared to say to me, that this fear is unrealistic and I should work to get over it. I was just flabbergasted.
@@natalia499 Yeah, it is unrealistic. Rape is a rare crime. Don't take it out on a group of men who are minding their own business. They should not be hampered by a woman who's paranoid and delusional.
@@natalia499 Unfortunately you are highlights he unconscious biases of society where seeing all men as potential rapists is okay. It isn't and has real world detrimental consequences on the mental health of men.
People survived for millennia without porn access but if you bring up the idea of going without it most men react as if you’re asking them to not masturbate at all. As if they don’t realise it’s possible to do it without porn, lol.
AH Ancient Egyptians and Ancient India drew and many times performed sexual acts in front of each other or did drawings and NO these weren't slaves. But yeah I get what you mean.
I'm sorry but men and women use different techniques. Just because it's easy as a woman to get off to reading a boring ass book doesn't mean that will work for men aswell. Also, even if we abolish producing porn for whatever reason, there is still so much out there that there is literally no harm in keep watching the already produced videos. You are asking pointless things of people just because you personally are uncomfortable with it.
Most women don’t use books anyways. I guess you think males don’t have an imagination or the ability to visualise? Is that what you’re claiming? Look, I understand that addiction is a hard thing to stop but let’s not pretend anyone NEEDS erotic aids in order to get off. you think men didn’t figure out how to wank until the last century? lol.
I’m a retired sex worker, and Marxist; I would love to speak with you more about this video’s subject matter if you have the time/inclination. I am a western, white woman, so you may already have plenty of subject matter.
A great and nuanced critique, I've always had trouble with the really individualist conception of sexwork that is dominant in leftist spaces, especially when you place it in context of the economical global north and south divide , sex trade, oppressed minorities, refugees, migrants etc. who are indirectly and disproportionally forced into sex work due economic reasons. You also made a great point on how sexwork within capitalist, patriarchal and white supremacist social relations reaffirms and reproduces the male gaze and objectification of women. It indeed allows men to evade the conscious act of deconstructing their male gaze and other sexist social constructs, thus making genuine solidarity with sexworkers more difficult.
Capitalism drives many into the sex industry who wouldn’t choose to be there if capitalism provided other opportunities that provide a living and thriving wage. In these cases it can be psychologically damaging. Capitalism has also worked in many ways to destroy the family unit that would otherwise create more consensual sex interactions. Rich capitalists and people living under capitalism will also be more likely to see other human bodies as commodities. Dr. Harriet Fraad speaks about similar issues in some of her capitalism hits home videos.
When not having _this_ job means that you may need to regularly risk rape and always get unwanted physical exposure, you've got that much worse of a bargaining position for wages and safety in this job. So employers will always be happy with dangerous and degrading sex work being behind the other door and having their position for you as a just-noticeably-lesser evil.
Exactly, people don't talk enough about how capitalism fragments consensual sexual experiences. So many people who buy into the incel ideology do so because of the contradictions and propaganda of capitalism. One thing that is common in fascist, capitalist ideologies is to emotionally stunt the men at a young age and then blame all of their emotional problems on the women, which is, culturally, commonplace in the US at least. This is a potent breeding ground in the "free marketplace of ideas" for incel or incel-adjacent ideology.
@@Madhatter1781 Particularly starting with millennials, people are delaying (sometimes indefinitely) things like living on their own, getting married, starting a family, and the maturity/responsibilities associated with those things gets stunted. Instead people live lifestyles centered around things like wanderlust, thrill seeking, partying, etc. There’s a lot of fear of missing out and pressure to live that prevalent aloof lifestyle. It’s a feedback loop that makes people even less desirable as serious partners. Now we’re seeing more open promotion of non monogamy as a mainstream lifestyle. Hey if you don’t have any reason to take things seriously, your potential partners aren’t taking things seriously, and you need four incomes to live anyway 🤷♂️
@@JebeckyGranjola Yeah, there are wrong ways to go with that certainly. Maybe better to say that capitalism disrupts stable, long-term residence that fosters consistent close relationships, including familial ones, that in turn make for generous opportunities for fully consensual sexual encounters. Bit wordy, sure, but gets there carefully.
Thank you Mexie Fantastic needed critiques. If the sex worker likes their job and wants you as a client the whole time, and chose to get into the industry when they had other good choices for employment, is it ok to be the client of that sex worker? is it still engaging in r*pe culture?
I would like to see you interview some porn stars and sex workers to expose the toxicity in that industry. It is an important conversation that needs to be had. I found this a lot more relevant and thought provoking than I thought it would be initially.
they sexwork is work. Its the same. The assumption than is that picking tomatoes, is the same as sex. But, i think for 99 present of people its not the same. So something strange is going on here. Also, lefties shout Sexwork is work ! But since when do they care that much about work in the first place ? I dont discuss this issue with people, because they will react with anger, and stupidity. Modern lefties are pro sexwork. Woke men are pro sexwork, and i wonder if they themselves also visit sexworkers? Or is that not within the domain of woke?
Look Shazam, you don't apologize to these people because they take it as a weakness. Apologizing is how you get yourself cancelled. Just tell your point of view and what you want to tell when you think about it you don't have to apologize for not thinking about stuff earlier.
Dang. I am seeing things a little differently, as a result of this video. Maybe, a lot differently. I feel a little condemned, and that's okay. Okay. Thank you for your clear and powerful arguments
This is really awesome, anything bringing more attention to workers rights already slaps, but an even more in depth marxist-feminist analysis of the greater issue? Pog.
you know, they say sex without consent is rape. But when you visit a sexworker, is there consent? No, because you have to pay her. Within leftist circles im not allow to think or say this. Within leftism, your as a man not allowed to tell a woman thats she looks beautifull, because thats 'the male gaze' or something like that. But you are allowed to visit sexworkers, because sexwork is 'empowering'.
Haven't checked in on your channel in a few years but now that I see you're doing videos on proletarian feminism and citing Esperanza I'll be diving right back in and catching up. Glad you're still out there
Thanks for this video. The more I learned and grew away from liberalism and towards an anti-capitalist, feminist mindset, the more uncomfortable I became with these systems I had previously accepted. The commodification of sex throughout history has conditioned a lot of us in ways that take time to undo.
Great video! I find that this topic is one of the most hopeless ones to discuss in leftist circles. I think most of us really agree on the fundamental goals, namely that no one should have to sell sex to earn money and that everyone that doesn't want to sell sex today should be able to easily exit. So often the debates end up being two side firing at each other with needlessly polarizing vocabulary where one side is labelled something like "SWERF moralists" and the other is labelled something like "johns and rape apologists". The discussions is mired in polarizing talking points and we often fail to discuss strategies to actually improve the lives of those who sell sex, in the many forms it takes place.
@@greensquare6235 As she explained in the video, selling sex is fundamentally a completely different and much more invasive form of exploitation than washing floors. How can you not view sex as different from other forms of labor?
@@greensquare6235 I answered your question. It's much more invasive to the individual to have to sell something so private and personal. It's deeply traumatic. Are you going to answer my question or are you too busy being arrogant?
@@greensquare6235 I work in a shipyard, where there is constant risk of physical injury and where people have died. Out of the 300 people there, I don't think a single one would rather be exposed to the deep trauma that is being forced to sell sex.
@@greensquare6235 Do you view sexual assault as different from other forms of assault, or sexual harassment as different from other forms of harassment?
Your logic in this video is flawed. Solving the material financial problems of people, doesn't necessarily mean that you are going to reduce prostitution. You're forgetting that people in middle and upper class positions choose sex work. So it's not necessary connected to wealth. Middle class women in places like Singapore still choose sex work, so it's not a race thing either.
A lot of her video is pointing out that we are not acknowledging the MAJORITY OF SEX WORKERS - impoverished women in the global south. These individuals most definitely are in coercive situations because of poverty. Solving their material conditions while both decriminalizing sex work would allow the people who DON'T want to be sex workers exit the industery. This video is criticizing the "politics" of sex work, like in your comment, of progressive spaces online that only acknowledge the fairly privileged perspectives of Western sex workers.
@@CanteLizzie I specifically mentioned women in Singapore, but I'm not surprised that you ignored that. There is a growing middle class throughout different African nations, and both men and women engage in some sort of sex work. It is people like you and Mexie who use the term Global South has a euphemism for poor people. Completely ignoring the economic differences between regions and countries. A generalized approach is not the correct approach, in the 21st century. My last point, in the last year of the 19th century Kipling wrote about the white man's burden. In the 21st century, white women like you and Mexie think it is your burden to save black and brown women, while demonizing black and brown men, think Samantha Powers and R2P. What is needed is arrogant, know-it-all white women to stop preaching and interfering.
@@mj6115 @M J H I didn't mention Singapore because you specifically mentioned 'middle-class women.' It's not just about "the global south." It's specifically IMPOVERISHED afab sex workers that also happen to be majorly in the 'global south.' This isn't a sweeping generalization but a reference to the empirical evidence about how the vast majority of sex work is done in these circumstances. Your points are valid but just show that you either didn't watch the video at all or have no critical thinking skills. The video is ALL ABOUT how the current discourse on sex work is led by white, privileged sex workers in western countries. She is criticizing the sweeping generalizations made when talking about sex work in progressive spaces. She is criticizing the focus on whiteness in sex work despite the majority of sex workers being BIPOC. She may be white but all she is is pointing out problematic things that she believes are harmful. Would you prefer she just say nothing? Like you said in your comment "it's not a race thing." I don't know her so I can't say for sure, but I don't think she's discussing this to help the 'poor brown people.' She's just talking about an issue that happens to largely effect people of color. I only replied to your comment in the first place because your sentiments were EXACTLY what she was criticizing. You make no acknowledgement of the impoverished individuals who are be coerced into prostitution due to misogyny, colonialism, and capitalism and instead focus only on the middle and upper-classes who participate in sex work to justify your politics. Not everyone in the 'global south' is poor. No one said it was. Not every sex worker in the 'global south' is coerced into sex work. No one said they were. None of your criticisms apply to the video at all. The goal is not to end sex work. The goal is to improve the material circumstances of poor individuals so that they do not have to turn to sex work if they do not want to. Solving their material conditions is EXACTLY what should be done. I don't know if this is defensiveness is coming as a sort of natural response against potentially reactionary views like that of swerfs (which is understandable) but you seem to be taking out all the nuance of the conversation while accusing others of doing the same. The video was ALL ABOUT discussing the lack of nuance in the discussion of sex work and brought up some problems she felt aren't usually addressed. It wasn't criticizing sex work but rather the discourse around it and how it excludes millions of sex workers. It was more a critique of capitalism and the patriarchy than anything.
Which gender are the bigger consumers in the retail world? 🤔 And which "romance" novel was the bestseller in 2013 (btw I don’t even approve of this book)?
I live in Geneva (Switzerland) since 2019 and was pleasantly surprised that sex trade was legal. Personally, being a demisexual straight man, the sex trade doesn't offer me anything! But as a former EMT in another country where it was illegal and after being confronted to human trafficking in several situations, I was and am 100% for a safe and legal work environment.
I love this video, I don’t rewatch things usually because of autism & adhd, but I also relate so much I’ve shared parts of this. I have one issue that really hits me and feel an intense sensation to share my perspective (regardless if it’s appreciated or not): I feel it is human nature to want physical connection. It is because of the patriarchy that the system appears to require a drove of sexual servants for one gender. I feel an aspect of your argument belies the effect of the trauma society has wrought on non-white-cis. Due to the way things are, the sexuality of the repressed becomes repressed…. Look, physical touch is necessary to feel whole, across the board. I have been wounded in a way I now reject sexuality, yet used to adore sexual behavior. It’s not just that “men need sex” since everyone does. with the power systems in play “women” have ptsd around sex and thus it makes the appearance of the male gaze you describe.
Really important intervention into this contentious topic. Big shout out to Esperanza and the proletarian feminist line on the sex trade of being ruthless with the oppressors but supporting the oppressed and exploited - and importantly recognising that exploitation rather than encouraging the oppressed to see their oppression as somehow liberating
Had that podcast on my to-do list for a week or so now, guess it's time to crank it up.
It makes me sick to see my friends turn 18 (usually coming from adverse circumstances) actually thinking about making barely legal p**n. I advocate for workers rights but the s*x industry loves taking advantage of the young and my friends can't see that. I think we need to give people of marginalized genders more options with guaranteed rights so they can actually consent to s*x. (Without the corrosive force of money playing a factor). But I still want to support workers in the s*x trade.
I think two things can be simultaneously true:
1. There is value in legalising sex work so that sex workers have the same protections and rights as other workers
2. We need to fight for a world where people are not forced into sex work with the threat of starvation
Aotearoa New Zealand has legalised prostitution and a welfare programme and while the industry is far from free from abuse and the welfare programme is not enough to live on, it's... a start.
true that legalising sex work would possibly help in the short term. There needs to be more though. Porn is legal and a billion-dollar industry, it does feed the toxicity of humanity with the way performers are treated or even how sex is performed. If prostitution were legalised I think change needs to happen in our culture first.
Yes. Be pro sex worker, but anti sex work
Sex work is decriminalised in New Zealand, however this is not extended to migrants. Our welfare is barely relevant to the conversation where the cost of living is so high and the threshold for legal earnings being so low, grey market work is necessary for a huge quantity of beneficiaries and sex work is certainly a significant options. Observationally, our low wage economy also incentives sex work as a side hustle particularly for young people.
@@allisondoak9425 I agree with everything you said.
I'm just saying in a perfect world we would have a decriminalisation of sex work, a living universal basic income, and legal protection for sex workers including migrants.
1 is reformist and 2 is revolutionary.
All too often under capitalism we allow a financial transaction to cloak an abusive social transaction.
The expectations have been socially constructed. Why be rude and disrespectful?
you mean literally universally?
So, I’m going to be very upfront about my perspectives and my biases here. I’m a former full service sex worker and former stripper. I’m poor, queer and disabled. But, I’m white, and I also worked (when speaking of fssw) in legal brothels and as a legal sole operator who advertised online, in Australia. That makes me very privileged in this discussion, and it’s important to recognise that.
I get the impulse to go straight in with the defensiveness. Because when it comes to SWERFs, they use the existence of sex slavery, sex trafficking and survival sex work, particularly by people of colour and those in the global south, as a stick with which to beat sex workers like me. I really honestly believe that they don’t care about sex workers in the global south, or those who are trafficked, any more than they can use them as a weapon in their arsenal. And so, a lot of the more privileged sex workers like me tend to get really defensive. I think that’s understandable. When it comes to SWEEFs, they treat me either as a helpless victim, or as one person once said to me, that I was the cause of all sexual assault in my area. There is no in between. I’m either a victim or a villain, and I’m dehumanised.
I would also like to note that while I am very privileged in this discussion as a sex worker, I think that it’s also pretty necessary to point out that almost all of the SWERFs I’ve had contact with are white, middle class, cishet, and abled. They also have no personal experience of the industry. They are using the least privileged as a way to hurt those who have less privilege than they do, and that’s not okay.
I think that my voice and my perspective is valid and worthwhile, and certainly worth more than that of white feminist SWERFs. But- in defending the position of people like me, I think we (sex workers in a similar portion and our allies) do tend to be very black and white, we do tend to spout a very basic narrative, we do tend to be very defensive. It reminds me of when Contrapoints pointed out that some trans feminine people won’t engage publicly with the male privilege discussion, because it’s so often used as a stick to beat them.
I feel similarly about discussing the more nuanced side of the conversation. We try so hard to fight stigma and to fight for safety and dignity, that we do draw a very thick line between sex exploitation and sex work. And that line is honestly not so thick.
I do honestly believe that full decriminalisation is by far the best option. Full or partial criminalisation hurts all sex workers, but I think it especially hurts those who are the most vulnerable. And I think we as more privileged people in the sex trade (or formerly in the sex trade) need to also be lifting up the voices of the most vulnerable and least privileged. That’s a big issue that we have right now- a lot of us are so busy defending ourselves from attack, that we aren’t lifting up the voices of those who need it the most.
Sex work IS real work, but it’s not the same as all other work. There are positives and negatives to the job. And the exploitation that exists within the industry (and there is always exploitation, because it’s work, and all workers are exploited in some way), is different to the exploitation that exists in other industries. It’s a dangerous job. That’s not something we can hand wave away. I think criminalisation, as well as the existence of policed borders, makes it even more dangerous.
I’m glad that someone is taking a more nuanced approach to the conversation. But I also understand the reason why the conversation is as simple as it is currently (even if it’s certainly not ideal). Anti sex worker people will and do use anything that strays off the very basic black and white proclamations, as a weapon against us. Do they care that they’re hurting both those more privileged sexist workers like me (who are still usually less privileged than they are), as well as the least privileged? No. I really don’t think they care. It’s an ideological war to them, and they will use any weapon, no matter how much it hurts others (they’re much like TERFs in thy way, who throw all women under the bus when they join with anti feminist organisations in order to spread their transphobia).
Sorry if this was a bit stream of consciousness. I just wanted to put forth my perspective on the matter, explain a bit about why those more privileged sex workers are as defensive as we are. But it isn’t ideal, and we do need to have those more nuanced discussions- just maybe away from where the SWERFs can see and then use it against us.
And this is another of those discussions where people like me tend to get very defensive. Because there were aspects of my jobs that I really enjoyed. As a stripper, I LOVED pole dancing. I was a dancer from the age of four. I enjoyed the social aspect, and taking my clothes off while dancing did make me feel sexy and powerful.
As a full service sex worker, my favourite clients would be the older men who didn’t come in for the sex so much as just wanting closeness and intimacy. I enjoyed cuddling and talking with them, and providing that for people made me feel good.
And the above is the standard, very defensive response to the idea that all sex work is rape. And while I’m definitely telling the truth about my experience with that, I’m also leaving a hell of a lot out. And not only am I leaving out the experience of those more exploited than I was, but even some of my own, less positive experiences. Because there were definitely times when I felt like a human condom, or fleshlight. When I felt dehumanised and kinda dirty, used. By some dickhead man who cared only about his own pleasure, and who didn’t use the “I have money and you need it” situation against me. It sucked. There were men who pushed against or even outright ignored my boundaries. And that’s in one of the most privileged situations that a sex worker can be in. It’s not all sunshine and roses, and because it was my body, then the exploitation, the being used, the disrespect of my boundaries… well it hits very different than in another job.
But I’ve never talked about that outside of sex worker only groups, because I don’t want those experiences being used against us. And they will be. They already are. It makes it a really complex and difficult to navigate issue. And it means that sex workers have to swallow the trauma that we’ve been subject to.
And again- this is as one of the most privileged sex workers. It’s much, much worse for others. And it’s tone deaf as all hell for sw like me to put on this bright, happy face, when people are really suffering. It’s understandable given the context, but that doesn’t make it okay.
I do think that aiming for a situation at least as good as New Zealand’s is the way to go. It needs to be better, because migrant sex workers are still not safe there. I do honestly believe that making the sex industry safer is the best thing, but it’s not enough. We need social safety nets so that survival arc work isn’t required. We need to stop policing borders so that sex trafficking can reduce, and so that those who are trafficked have the ability to go to the authorities for help, not to be locked up themselves and in danger of even more sexual violence from the pigs. Basically, in order for sex work to be safe, to be a choice, we need to change society.
Do I think sex work would still exist in a communist/anarchist/ post capitalist society? Yes, actually. For the reasons I gave at the start of this comment. It’s a service that is provided, and providing that service can feel good. I do think it would need to be VERY different to how it is now though.
@@katarinapratt7657 *hugs*.
@@greensquare6235 there’s a certain level of intimacy and vulnerability in allowing people inside my body that simply never occurred in any other job I’ve worked. When my boundaries weren’t respected as a sex worker, that was more traumatising than my old fast food manager just expecting that I’d work a shift I’d already said I didn’t want. Or a customer at a grocery store making mean comments to me. Because it was my body, but especially a very vulnerable part of my body that is so intimate and personal.
So yeah, sex work is work, but it’s a different form of work than most jobs. And it has different dangers and (potential) traumas. There’s also a hell of a lot more stigma to sex work than other work. It is definitely not the same as just any other job.
Apologies for the late reply, youtube doesn’t give me all notifications.
@@katherinemorelle7115 I live in Australia and am disabled myself as well as friends with two disabled sex workers both white and privledged in working locations. You said it all very well. I also really agree that there would be sex workers in a anarcho communist utopia. It would be very interesting to see how the distribution of sex workers changed in a utopian society and on the way there... I would imagine there would be a decrease in sex workers as desperation in society went down and more people doing sex work for survival were able to exit the profession then over time a raise in the number of people doing it as it became less stigmatized (something that making it a truely voluntary profession would imo speed up greatly as it would lose the "no one does that unless they have to" argument) I honestly can't really predict if there would end up being more or less overall. I think in a utopia rather than the line between sex work and rape / sex trafficking being awfully thin and blurry the line between sex work and sex might get more blurry as no one would need to work to survive and payment for work in general might not exist.
hi, "poc" poor prostitute here, i frequent sex trade abolitionist discussions a lot and hardly find it to be a white middle class position, attacking the line "sex work is work" doesn't mean youre a "SWERF" (again, here i am! a "sw'r"! this position can definitely be twisted up by people that are bioessentialist but this isn't the political line that sex trade abolition takes on, it comes from the anticapitalist thought and the people that do the work to analyze the conditions of the sex trade- around the world and through time- very much care about the circumstances that brought many of us into "sw" and fully understand the needs for righting societal failures that come about from hailing profit over life- which is what people are effectively doing when they're pro-sex trade expansion- the welfare of life is not guaranteed and exploited for profit. that is sad. and it's sad that so many "privileged" folks can spin their "defensiveness" for the trade as morally superior, when a focus on the sexually trafficked is constantly looked down on or dismissed as a separate phenomenon that's weird af
I did sex work for 19-26. And I was expecting to not like this but wow yes. Thank you for introducing this nuance. The general discourse is better than hating SW certainly, but it’s frustrating because I don’t feel it’s critical enough. Thanks for putting this out there
I am with you, comrade! Shame has no place amongst the proletariat. Abandon overbearing morons telling you how you deserve to feel.
@@joshualittlewolfe8550 I totally agree with you. We proletariats made the means of production that the capitalists now own. We just need to take it back to who it truly belongs: the greater worker population.
Being very different from a straight-up rapist does not mean that you are all the way into a-okay-fine territory. Less bad, surely - just fine, not necessarily, not at all.
I don't care for the slogan "there is no ethical consumption under capitalism" just because it is so often taken as an excuse to put off ethical considerations in what you buy until after the revolution and the total extirpation of capitalism, and there's an instance of that in the attitude that sex work is just work so go for it (as a consumer) since everyone's gotta make a living and ANY way of making a living will suck here. A better way to read it may be: so long as there is capitalism, there will be buckets of shit flooding our lives, so we've got BOTH capitalism to end AND lots of bailing out of shit to do. We don't get to let the shit-bailing go just because we're going to have to keep doing it til the other task is done.
Consumers have limited choices when the means of production are controlled by the capitalist class. No amount of "ethical consumerism" is going to solve the problems caused by the poor decisions of the ruling class.
@@echomediastudios Ethical consumerism won't solve the problems, but does that mean you shouldn't consider it at all? In this context - might as well buy sex and ignore any ethical concerns.
Im one of those people that went straight to said slogan. Sometimes it feels like the choice is between principle and hands-on good but, I think, at the very least on my own behalf, that this becomes an issue only when not faced directly with the immidiate consequences of that choice of opinion. I have some thinking to do.
Agreed. Because there's definitely better and worse consumption under capitalism - hence veganism. There's also definitely better and worse consumption of sex under capitalism. So yes, we don't want to rest on ethical consumption as a solution, it is not. But it's also not helpful to just throw up our hands and say "no ethical consumption under capitalism - so why bother trying".
At this point "no ethical consumption" basically functions as an excuse to never actually do anything and to never try. How many if these people who refuse to change their habits are also the ones who never engage in activism, union activities, mutual aide, direct action, political campaigns, etc?
Unsurprisingly, I'm completely in agreement on all this. I bristle whenever I see men trying to classify sex as just another product on the shelf for them to buy. Maybe some think they're being good allies, maybe they just don't want to think about it, but whatever the origin of this belief, it's incredibly opportunistic. They don't seem interested in looking at why commodifying human bodies might be a problem at all. This is especially common with porn, where it's clearly in the interest of patriarchy to not only keep porn going full force, but recruit even more people and encourage *everyone* to sell access to their bodies. It's clear to me who that serves. I think it's a shame that this is what shapes our sexual relationships to one other.
Safety for workers is priority number one, but the end goal for me was always eliminate the underlying economic NEED for people to get into those lines of work in the first place. Only then can we be safe to say the people doing this are doing it because they want to, and they can stop any time they want.
@@greensquare6235 well what's the product of sex work? what's the thing being exchanged for money?
The commodity is a sexual experience.
THIS! also when ppl do that they completely disregard the emotional labor that goes into sex. sex is intimate both emotionally and physically, that is non-debatable and even if one can compartmentalize their brain and ignore the emotional aspect of sex, that's not a healthy coping mechanism and can lead to mental health issues. not to mention that all the hormones released during sex are going to affect our mental state whether we like it or not. sex is different from other forms of physical labor and that part of the conversation is often ignored because when you try to bring it up people will say that you are "old fashioned" or being "too emotional". it's such a nuanced topic there's so many aspects to talk about.
Before watching this video, I have just kept the opinion that I ran into from Jimmy Snow about a year ago, and had basically just stuck with it without giving it much thought. But I've always considered it a bit of a sore spot in my ideology (and I still have a couple other holes I ought to consider, as swiss cheese doesn't provide a strong foundation for opinions). But I am very thankful I came across this video, because it brought the inherent contradictory nature of my standpoint straight to my face.
Unfortunately, there is one more hole I was reminded of that I'm not quite ready to engage with yet, and that I've very intentionally remained ignorant of. I absaloutly love meat, and it pretty much makes up my entire diet as I am not fond of fruits or vegetables. But I'm afraid if I learn the truth about factory farms and the commercial meat industry, I might starve to death. One good sign though is that I unknowingly tried spaghetti made with impossible meat sauce, and actually enjoyed it more than spaghetti with real meat. So once I can have impossible steaks, brisket, pulled pork, pork chops, bacon, chicken fillets, etc. that are indistinguishable from their real counterparts, I will take the time to educate myself about the truth. But for the time being, I intend on keeping this hole right where it is. 😅
Great video Mexie, it takes courage to admit to problems with previous work you have uploaded and it takes courage be a ''disruptor'', I'm proud of you ❤
Thank you so much!
@@Mexie I'm going to tear this video to pieces in a response video. You want to give workers free money. Give them YOUR money, don't come to me. And If I had my way, men would stop buying from these women and force them to GET. A. JOB.
@@citycrusher9308 lmao please tell me when you've uploaded and "teared apart" this video, I could use a good laugh
@@chana7276 Already did. Loser crushed
@@citycrusher9308 pfft, just run back to Return of Kings or wherever you came from lmao
As a sex worker,,,,
I've always found it unfortunate that discussion about sex work has become so binary, where either it's always oppressive and must be banned, or it's never harmful and must never be critiqued. However, I understand it is like that because the stakes are very high on both sides: on one side we don't want people to be forced into sexual acts, and on the other we don't want people to be forced into losing their income and starving. From my own position in our capitalist society, I must say this debate is downright scary, and I wish I could support people who don't want to be in sex work without risking losing my chance at financial independence because my customers started feeling like oppressive men and left. Ideally we'd be able to give people options outside of sex work so they can exit it if they wish, while those who see this form of capitalist exploitation as the lesser evil can remain in it.
You concern is real. After watching this I am not sure I want to get a chair massage at the mall, much less engage a sex worker for the rest of my life. Never.
I don't remember what you said in the other video, but I'm honestly thrilled about this one. I've always felt something was off about the discussion of sex work in recent years, as if the puritanical attitudes of so many people (and the laws they create) are the only significant problem. It seemed so odd that I never heard anything about what it means for a man to buy sex - implying that this is a morally neutral act - and talk about the negative experiences of sex workers seemed to be little more than pro forma. But I doubted myself and wondered if I was just missing something. I hope you bringing these topics to center stage can help change the discourse. It's very much needed.
"what we like has been deeply shaped by capitalist algorithms, and that these things that are fed to us are addictive and like they're designed to be so. So it's simultaneously desensitizing and addictive..." The existence of these algorithms in this industry is also having a deleterious effect on the consumers of it. It teaches that sex is consumable rather than relational, and tends to reinforce relations of dehumanization and domination.
Yeah, this is one thing we never discuss in relation to sex work: it's not that sex has to be emotionally meaningful, but dehumanizing it and detaching it from the friendship or relationship you have with the other person provides an outlet for unrealistic expectations and impatience with other humans.
On qualifying porn as "addictive" though... an essential clinical criteria when talking about addiction is that the behavior (itself) and the "exagerated" pursue of it should be directly detrimental to the individual's social life and ability to feel pleasure overall.
While I do think porn indirectly has those consequences by shaping the consumer's perceptions and experiences of sex for the worst, I think that this does not quite fit the definition. Not as much as an hypothetical "my girlfriend left me because I wouldn't have sex with her because I always fap to porn" scenario would. Is it because this problem is more whidespread, and therefore, "normal"?
@@izellets7361 I think this is like saying the US's economic and war attacks on the middle east is not qualified as terrorism. it's the exact same principles, same behaviours, but it doesn't "fit" the definition.
@@izellets7361 Perhaps. But this might be the topic for another inquiry altogether.
So I’m a sex worker, this is one of the first times I’ve heard this perspective. Originally I was super resistant to this but I really appreciate your perspective
It's so refreshing to hear a nuanced perspective on this issue. Thank you so much. It honestly feels healing to listen to this.
Unfortunately it's not just liberals and not just men, but also plenty of leftists and women and nonbinary people, who take an unnuanced and uncritical view of this issue and who are aggressive, toxic, strawmanning, and slanderous towards those who say the types of things you say in this video. I know because I've been on the receiving end many times. The dog-piling and hate I received was exhausting and depressing. Admittedly, years ago I did not used to be as nuanced as I should have been on this issue, but even when I developed a nuanced position I still received tons of hate.
Thanks again for this video. I want to give you several enthusiastic high-fives.
Johns: Clients of prostitutes or sex workers are sometimes known as johns or tricks in North America and punters in the British Isles.
Thanks. I was just about to google this. I was really confused.
You are always very thoughtful but everyone makes mistakes. I don't know how many comments I have deleted in the past after some reflection or apologies I have offered.....
We should all strive to grow as human beings. Keep fighting the good fight Mexie 💙
thank you :)
WOW that closing quote from Esperanza 😳🙌🏻
This really opened my eyes and made me realize I had a fairly limited view on the issue. I realize that it’s really easy for men in particular to naturally align themselves with discourses that don’t require them to self reflect and change as long as they can still pat themselves on the back for being woke on Twitter about sw. I have lots of reading to do now, thanks for changing my mind comrade.
It's always bothered me how liberal feminists will push the "enthusiastic consent" model, but don't apply it to sex work. Apparently all you need to confirm consent is money, even if she's not attracted to you, or not in the mood. Similarly, socialists and anarchists often describe work under capitalism as "wage slavery" because needing to work to survive is inherently coercive. If all work is coerced, then sex work is coerced sex, and I just don't see how it can be justified.
Of course, any time you try to bring up the ethics of buying sex in leftist circles someone will either call you a swerf, a puritan, or say something like "Why are you sitting here debating politics when sex workers are out there DYING?" aka weaponizing guilt to discourage you from critical thinking. If we followed that logic, we wouldn't have socialism, or anarchism, or feminism or any school of thought. We can't fight injustice if we can't even talk about it.
@@HayabusaKnight I'm not talking about in anarchism, I'm talking about in our current society.
Similar to all other jobs, I'm actually never in the mood to perform work at my job & yet I do it anyway, because we all need to work to survive.
If she really doesn't want to perform her job one night or for a certain customer then she can say no. If that turns into rape then he can be punished for assault & rape.
If you outlaw prostitution you only limit that person's survival options even more.
@@tefazDK Did you watch the video? As Mexie said, mopping a floor you don't want to mop is not the same experience as having sex you don't want to have. There's a reason sexual harassment is different than harassment, sexual assault is different than assault, and sexual consent is different from other forms of consent. When you bring sex into the equation it changes things, because sex is unique in the way it affects people. Yes, she can say no, but that means she doesn't get paid, so the "choice" isn't much of a choice for most workers.
I support decriminalization. Criticizing an industry isn't the same as saying it should be outlawed.
@@RJRedtail Sure, but no jobs are really the same. All jobs have different experiences. And many jobs can affect people on a deep emotional level, especially when there's interaction with other people.
Just saying "It's not the same", is no real argument for criminalizing a consensual transaction.
Even when a job like prostitution can negatively affect someone mentally it should still be up to the prostitute to decide if the risk is worth the reward.
Not for other people to remove her options.
@@tefazDK Of course all jobs are different. I'm talking about how sexual issues are profoundly different to the point where they're beyond comparison. You wouldn't put being punched in the same category as being groped for example. Yes, it's not an argument for criminalization because as I already stated, I support decriminalization. One can criticize an unethical industry while still supporting workers.
based!! Esperanza totally rules. She changed my mind when she went on Paul Morin
Very interesting! Not a topic I’ve thought about much but what you’re saying here makes a lot of sense. I kind of see a parallel with critiquing plastic surgery as a feminist. I’m not against it entirely, but I’ve seen people get blasted as “anti-free choice” and “anti feminist” for seemingly fair criticism of the culture around it
I've thought the same thing about how sex is depicted in media. Like Emma Watson was blasted for having a topless photoshoot, and while I obviously think she should do what she wants with her body, I think theres a critique to be had of how those images of her in a small part contribute to racist fatphobic views of women as we are only depicting white thin women in this manner. But that criticism cannot center on Emma Watson's decision making as an individual.
@@ViewerEm i'm sure the majority of people who view such nudity are merely consuming it for sexual gratification. trying to use it to make a positive statement is almost surely drowned out by the negative aspects of people continuing to sexualize her. as to the aspect of racism and fatphobia, being accepting of who and what you are is not a judgement those who are different.
@@joe42m13 if she is willing to be sexualized in that way, that is her prerogative. i know mexie spoke on objectification but artistic nudity is not necessarily catered towards sexual gratification in the same way pornography might be. the accusations of racism and fatphobia were at the fact that she was the person the magazine chose to represent in this way, following a pattern of not representing anyone beyond white thin women not in the concept of her herself being racist or fatphobic by being white and thin
@@ViewerEm What bothers me about that whole thing is that society views women by default as sexual. Emma Watson wasn't nude in the shoot, it was more of a high fashion art piece. But because she has breasts it's considered sexual. Breasts themselves are not sexual, half the humans on Earth have them. Sexualizing a female body and breasts is another story though, and that isn't what Emma Watson was doing. So she wasn't sexualized at all. it's purely people applying a narrative to shame women for being women.
Same thing if a woman wears a skirt or leggings out one day. Is she being sexual in that fashion decision? Absolutely not. Will men sexualize her and shame her for dressing a certain way? Most likely. It should never be the woman to blame for things like that.
While I agree with the general points of this video, it's also necessary to take a step back and recognize that this is essentially a commentary on the discourse surrounding sex work and not on the politics of sex work itself. Effectively, this discussion is relevant for leftist spaces, mostly online leftist places and mostly men in online leftist places. That isn't a bad thing unless our concern with how men talk about sex workers on twitter overshadows our concern with the wellbeing of actual sex workers.
in the global south, where I live and where most surival sex work and sex tourism takes place, sex work is mostly entirely criminalized. Moreover, the public discourse surrounding sex work is a step removed from the discussion taking place in online leftist spaces. For us leftists, the basic starting view is that work is generally exploitative, and then we add on to that the nuance that, due to qualitative reasons, the exploitation happening in sex work is especially egregious. In Brazil, where I live, the default view for the ordinary person is that work generally isn't exploitative but sex work is. My hunch is that the same goes for most of South America, Southeast Asia and Africa, which are places wherein the majority of people are conservative and religious, and also where the conditions for sex work are the worst.
Hence, while it's important to acknowledge that exploitation in sex work is worse than in other industries, it's more urgent to have it recognized as work in the first place. And really, regardless of the nuances of your take, the one actionable goal remains the same: comeplete decriminalization of sex work. The smallest and most privileged strata of sex workers (those who don't do sex work to survive) are mostly safe from the negative consequences of being involved in a criminalized activity. So our discussion about the morality of buying sex shouldn't overshadow the need to fight for decriminalization. I emphasize this because the manifold complications and different takes one can have on all the nuances of sex work are an actual obstacle for pro-sex-worker political engagement when leftist communities stop focusing on a common goal and turn to in-fighting.
I'm also not a fan of the gendering ot the language surrounding sex work. I understand your reasoning for doing so, but the general public already thinks of sex work in terms of male buyers and female sellers by default, so indulging in that language only reinforces the erasure of outlying experiences. Basically everyone already vastly underestimates the existence of male-presenting sex workers so I just don't see the point.
I really appreciate you putting this out here on your platform.
I've seen a lot of young people on tiktok or wherever actually end up back in the swerfy domain and I think that's because of the lack of discourse in the mainstream past the Liberal narrative that when they look for affirmation of their negative experiences with porn, sex work, trafficking etc, male gaze and objectification etc and mostly find older radfem text or reactionary texts. Having an accessible materialist analysis of the problems which stands firm in decriminalisation is important.
I also think that it's important we do address people on the left, particularly women, finding themselves watering down their views, particularly when they are in material analysis or personal experience, in favour of having the "right" answer with the least pushback. I think a lot of people are making themselves smaller and the discourse gets weaker to the point where "the discourse" is a negative term. I think young people especially are encouraged to pick the correct social justice position before they're even old enough to have read anything past a couple articles and RUclips videos to really inform themselves. It's not that someone has to read a lot of books to develop informed views but the older work, blogs, discussion etc online are largely lost to smartphone application Internet so younger people who cannot square the circle end up reinventing the wheel.
I respect you breaking this and those who made the initial comments which made you rethink what you want to put up here.
Personally my friends who are sex workers are anarchists and find all work exploitative and some of them have been really open that they do not like the idea of people watching their videos and don't respect their John's and wouldn't consider anybody who chose to buy from them a friend because it requires them to not care on a deep level what they want in the bedroom. I have seen my decrim anarchist sex worker friends be called swerfy for talking about their industry and its gross. I think a lot of the sex workers that people are listening to are very often accounts linked to selling their sex work ie only fans etc. Their opinions are valid but they are actors and they are trying to get sales. They won't get sales if they're dissing everybody who buys from them. They won't get sales from quality customers if they say that they don't like their job. They don't want customers who enjoy that they aren't enjoying themselves. You know?
Of course something which pays sex workers directly or is ethically made as possible is preferable. But we are kidding ourselves if we pretend that this is the most accessible porn, or that this is the first we come across, particularly with the removal of porn from tumblr and such like this. The first place you are is pornhub. You can't even be sure what's consensual, but on top of that regardless of how much sex is on there, a particular image of very hierarchal and patriarchal male gaze objectifying hardcore is pushed into your face on the adverts and front page. Even the more bdsm female domme things are really framed in this way. I'm not going to pretend I don't watch porn, but I was definitely damaged by this specific view of sex as something that men do to women which degrades women being the main entryway to viewing sex.
And of course whether the video itself is good feminist material which shows female pleasure and uses female gaze is not the only thing that matters when this is all acted and usually not a real depiction of pleasure.
Also re the end about criticism of anarchists, I think it's just that it's easier to identify as one without really organising or doing the work. A lot of people come to anarchism as a logical extension of liberation politics and social justice rather than from real solid class analysis. I can say most people in the organised anarchist left who have worked in sex work (mostly trans experiences tbh) are very clear in their understanding of limitations of the industry. They did have to be a bit more individualistically pro-sex in certain spaces due to pushback against invited sex worker speakers to events by radical feminists who actually are swerfs and the immediate need to easily justify their existence and attendance.
A lot of the young anarchists who are very online, often in a bad mental health space, often socially isolated, often black and white thinkers, often affirmed by social media likes and clicks, they are not very representative of the organised anarchist left, at least in the UK, however the failure of the organised anarchist left to absorb and welcome these young social-justice minded people in and make them feel relative space is a failure of anarchism in the UK. The fact that the movement as such was largely decimated by the transphobia of a few terfs (actual terfs) being coddled and supported by a lot of the older white male left who had been looking up to these women as feminists is a failure and a tragedy in itself, Esp considering that anarchism has always been as escape for the queer marginalised and oppressed outside of the traditional leftist notions of working class issues (homeless, addicts, sex workers, peasantry, GRT community, squatters, and queer and gender variant people all often unwanted by trade union dominated leftists) and that they had so many trans people in their organisations and scenes that the ignorance was baffling. I think this split really is what encouraged more black and white slogan narratives, at least over here, because anarchist trans folk really put hours and days into nuanced discussions over and over again with people who they thought were their comrades. There were rightfully angry militant people right at the start of the bookfair event, but the vast majority of trans and sex worker anarchists had been extremely patient over the years and really used convincing logical and sometimes pandering arguments to their friends over and over, only for them to go and have a couple words with a radical feminist and all their hard work to have vanished and eventually they just drew a line in the sand because it was so painful to them for all their proper materialist analysis to be written off as "divisive identity politics rubbish" anyway.
They are all still out here and fighting with real indeoth things to say on their blogs and on their Facebook (twitter and short form media is much harder to be nuanced on as everybody wants you to be on a side and takes arguments out of context to force that) and in person but it just is not as easily accessible as part of the discussion for the online left as all that twitter drama is.
And its a shame, because those ex-AFED sex workers and trans folk literally have some of the best critiques of all.
I'd really recommend anything about sex work from "wearetherabble" Leeds anarchist blog for one. The same person fought hard every year for groups like the English Collective of Prostitutes to be represented at the bookfair. Now the ECP are not explicitly anarchist but they do not shy away from criticising the industry in their fight for decrim. They are really solid.
And its sad that they end up being overlooked because of a lot of online anarchists who have never really had a real life political home where you're around people who are supportive but not always comfortable and you can't constantly use tone policing arguments to get mad and shut down when you don't like something, but have to take some level of responsibility for feelings and practical behaviours to get things done and pick your battles and bring up longer standing issues calmly, or perhaps to work in a more validating offshoot (ie a black queer women's caucus) where you aren't being grinded down by well meaning microaggressions which divert energy constantly etc. It's not about taking away safe bubbles, it's more about realistic human interaction. I don't think real life anarchists have mastered this at all either, but I think at least we are a bit more honest and open with our failures. We can't just rely on some existing old model when we don't know how to best move forward. We have to innovate, which is hard, and splits people I to smaller groups. But there we go.
One mistake: Johns are not a class. They can be of any class. You can be critical of the role and it's position in the nexus of exploitation, but that is different from calling it a class position. Or be clear that you are not using the word "class" in the marxist sociological sense.
That said, I mostly agree with your take on the subject and appreciate you calling out the uncritical slippery slope that goes pro-sex-worker = pro-sex-work = pro-sex-industey = pro-capitalist-exploitation-of-sexualized-bodies
Maybe I missed something but isn't criminalizing solicitation while legalizing sex work going to result in some really bad outcomes?
This puts johns in a position where they have a lot of incentive to "disappear" or at a minimum threaten sex workers if their interaction becomes problematic.
I can see how this sort of policy might reduce solicitation and thus problematic interactions overall. But it also seems like it might aggravate the unwanted behavior even further.
Thanks for making this video and for pinning it to the other video.
considering how much you anticipated the backlash, it has remained very calm. I hope this is a good sign
As a non-binary genderfluid person, the phrase "non-men" makes me very uncomfortable for reasons I can't quite explain. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be used or anything, I don't know, but it definitely does make me feel off.
Because it defines genders other than the male gender as relative to men and as an absence of manhood rather than in their own right. Women are not “non men” in the same way that agender people aren’t “non men” or “non women” and in the same way that binary transgender people aren’t “non cisgender”. All of these are whole gendered lives and experiences defined by what they are rather than solely what they aren’t.
As a non-dysphoric, non-transitioning, cismasculine-perceived non-binary person who continues to use he/him pronouns, I know that I'm not being included under the umbrella of "non-men" when it's used in contexts like this even though I'm not one. It's obvious that what's really meant when the term "non-men" is used in contexts like this is "people who get visually perceived as femme", which erases A LOT of non-binary people.
I had a conversation with someone recently who was suggesting that it was a moral failing for women to work in the sex trade. I suggested that his position was, among other failings, not applying the same "moral" consideration to the men participating. He said if it wasn't for sale, they wouldn't buy it. I walked away.
Thank you so much for making this video. I am beyond excited that someone with your platform is speaking out on this from a leftist perspective. I feel like the conversation has been hijacked, between liberal feminism and the porn industry, so that critique of the sex industry is often answered with body positivity or diatribes against shame, even though those are not the same issues. A material examination of the power relations present in the current industry -- not the utopian one, but the one which presently exists -- makes it very difficult to be anything be critical and distrustful of the industry. We must stand as allies with the women and non-men who are fighting against their exploitation.
I find myself agreeing with almost all the systemic critique and just factual awfulness about the industry but disagreeing with some of the conclusions or I suppose premises such as johns being inherently class enemies, I think the desire to buy sex while often does stem from entitlement can also come from simply viewing sex as a nothing more than a fun activity.
What is driving the desire to buy sex is completely irrelevant to the fact that John's are class enemies. No matter why they are doing it, they are still holding money over people's heads and making them perform sex acts that they likely wouldn't want to otherwise (as most in the global sex trade are doing survival work and the majority want an immediate exit), and they are exploiting their position as a man in this society which has all of this infrastructure available to make mostly marginalized women available to them for sex. "A fun activity" to the John is coerced sex (which, not all, but many experience as traumatic, including many I know who have exited the trade and are dealing with PTSD and other serious issues) to be able to put food on the table for the worker, and the class antagonisms remain (Johns wanting more for less, worker wanting to do less for more) and the structure of society still funnels marginal people into the trade for the pleasure, power, and privilege of mostly men. This all exists regardless of what John's are personally thinking when doing it - their individual reasons aren't relevant to the critique of John's as an institution. It also exists regardless of whether some SWers (usually more privileged) don't mind the work and don't experience it as traumatic - this is great, but also sells out the people who do, and normalizes an entire global infrastructure that grew out of misogyny, private property and slavery. And frankly, if John's are doing this casually and just thinking "hey this'll be fun" and not thinking about this whole patriarchal class system that they're participating in, not to mention the colonial/imperial implications, then they should think much, much more critically about it, and think again before doing it. Whatever their reasons, and regardless of whether they're a "nice person" (whatever that means), I can not see what they're doing as anything but misogyny, entitlement, and exploitation.
@@bootyspoon4675 yea thats how i feel too, i see what you mean but "class enemy" many "johns" are dirt broke and have no interest in violence and assault or even coercion, some men would be fine with a refusal and be understanding, alot of "johns" are just incel teddy bears, some of the rhetoric is aggressive, borderline violent and scary, but again i get where its coming from but its one of those newer perspectives that many arent ready for on both sides, not ALL "johns" are class enemies imo, That undermines how capitalism perverts what it means and is to be a male as well as a female from a young age, johns are victims of capitalism too
@@bootyspoon4675 couldn't have said it better my friend. Glad someone else sees a different perspective.
Back when I lived in Toronto, I worked providing harm reduction services, including services specific to women who did sex work. I've seen the violence up close, connected women to the bad date coalition, etc... You're right that this is an incredibly multi-faceted industry, and that we can't separate a persons individual choices from the systems they operate within. Some people's choices are more constrained than others. I will always land on the side of supporting decriminalization and sex workers rights to organize, but I agree that you can do that while also being critical of the industry as a whole.
@@madnessends2477 I'll be honest, it's been 3 months since viewing this so I can't really remember Mexie's talking points with any sort of clarity. I'm not doubting that strawmanning may have or did happen. I think I was just trying to state there's a lot of nuance in the lived experience of sex workers. I also have met so few sex workers actually looking for exit from the industry, and exit strategies are so rarely viable anyhow, that any sort of abolitionist or Nordic model is absolutely nonsensical and not grounded in evidence based research or models of best practice. Hence why I stand behind decriminalization, harm reduction, and a labour rights approach. I'm hoping that adds some clarity to what I meant to get across.
@@madnessends2477 Yeah I hear ya! And I don't blame you for feeling frustrated.
I have had such a journey with porn. I started out in jr high, looking out of curiosity. Then as I got older I went into a kind of shame cycle because I was wanting to be more committed to my church, but porn was seen as a sin and so every time I'd fall to temptation, as it were, I'd have to go through this self-hating shame and repentance cycle. Fast forward a decade plus of this, I eventually got with my partner who is aesexual and has no issue whatsoever with me finding enjoyment in porn. Around that time I got away from those religious beliefs that had such a negative effect on my mental health and started enjoying porn without guilt.
THEN.... I found a NEW reason to critique my porn consumption.... I've also had to go on this journey you're talking about here as I've come to realize how harmful porn is to the world and to the performers. I have personally had to fight for the position that I don't believe porn has been harmful for me, I haven't done any of the things anti-porn groups say it will do (such as watching more and more extreme material, trying to coerce my partner into sex she's uncomfortable with, becoming desensitized and disinterested in my partner, etc. None of that has happened with me.). However, after learning what I have and considering the possibility that I may have harmful mindsets even if I'm not aware of them or act on them, I've given up on porn. I noticed right away that once I made the commitment to not look at porn, it was as if I started noticing for the first time a _certain_ way I was looking at women around me. It's weird and creepy and I can't un-realize that it has had some effect.
So yeah, I appreciate this video. I always like discovering where I'm wrong and where I can improve, and I think the lib mindset surrounding sex work is a vital one to re-evaluate.
Good on you friend. I'll be honest, I find pr0n genuinely addicting - I can't go 2 weeks without it, and when I start watching I sometimes binge-watch videos for hours, seeking the 'right video'. In the past I've tried to justify it, thinking I only watch homemade stuff, nothing extreme. But I do think it's addicting, for me at least. And it's available everywhere these days, even RUclips if you know what to search for.
I feel like as well sex work buyers tend to be considered as gleeful sociopaths who just need to have limits placed on them (and the same with a lot of discourse around men in the patriarchy), whereas this is also another imbalance that needs to be addressed.
Especially the necessity/demand for sex work in the first place. Lots of sources meant to empower say that sex work has been part of civilisation forever- which to me reads more as a criticism of the disconnection and loneliness in civilisation than an endorsement.
Buying sex or intimacy hasn’t ever been a part of a functional relationship lol (this to me doesn’t include poledance/strip club performances or watching porn of consensual adults- treating it as art rather than just objects/tools to get endorphins from).
The relationship between an webcam model and an internet buyer is most akin to a drug addict- one sided, hollow and unsustainable (either economically or just internally), and the same with prostitution. In order for it to maintain the model of this and not become an actual normal relationship instead of sex work it has to be transactional.
This is not the same as other ‘work’ such as looking after kids or performing art or farming/hunting which can take place without coercion and offer mutualistic benefits (if you’re in a community with good relationships).
An unpaid prostitute is an oxymoron- which again doesn’t mean anything is morally bad about the prostitute or even necessarily the buyer, just that the system of relationships/society they both exist in (and are) needs to be addressed including understanding the loneliness and obvious relationship insecurities of the buyers/coercers.
amazing video and so true, all of it. I also really admire you started off with an admission of where you had fallen short before, that was very nice to see that humility and lack of defensiveness. leftist men often times do not want to do that hard work of self critique and deconstruction of the things in society that have ingrained ideas of toxic masculinity within them, and how their tastes and interests in consuming porn or buying sex is harmful. it is an easy out to default to the 'sex positive' line of consuming 'ethical' porn or to brush off a deeper analysis of sex work than just defending the rights sex workers should have.
sex workers being given support and a safe way to do their trade is the short term harm reduction of capitalism, the end goal is to abolish the need for people to do sex work at all
U won't get grief from me because this was on point. I don't see how it's contradictory to be pro for the worker and against the trade when we know it's exploitative. Any argument otherwise is blatantly hypocritical.
As someone who currently struggling with all the questions, I appreciate your video. I also wanted to validate your hesitation for not going this far: it could be a trade off of less people watching (how many people you want to influence) v.s. where we truly want to make a difference. Thank you for going through all of these and was able to upload this video which I believe it is life changing for me.
I want to say a lot, but I'm afraid. I just hope one day man and women can see sex as something beautiful, necessary and that people can say that they want sex just because they want sex without expecting something (money, relationships, security).
Great video! Next video should touch on why sex work and drugs are being kept "illegal" yet somehow you can find drugs and sex for sale almost anywhere you go.
The CIA's black budget has to come from somewhere. Black markets are unregulated and unmonitored _by design._
@@discountchocolate4577
Yes definitely, only thing I disagree with is the "unregulated" or "unmonitored" part.
Someone has to do the (their) dirty work.
My first job was working at a convenience store which was open 24 hours per day, and employees were working completely alone in 8 hour shifts. During our orientation, we were given a training on what to do if we were raped on the job. When I tell people this story, people are usually shocked and horrified that my employer seemed to consider being raped as an acceptable risk - after all, they were more willing to train us on what to do afterward than they were to prevent it in the first place.
I think it's really telling that people dismiss sex workers' experiences of being raped on the job by telling them they could have been raped in any job. It seems unlikely to me that they would say the same thing to workers in other industries who have been raped on the job. There is a passive acceptance of violence against sex workers in that dismissal.
THIS IS THE CONTENT I FUCKING NEED THANK U
I'm really glad you pushed back against Esperanza's Nordic model thing. I think she does a good job of critiquing liberal discourse but at the end of the day criminalization is a liberal tool. I've been disappointed to see Red Nation and AngieSpeaks having her on with essentially zero pushback to those positions.
I also think her thing about sex work not being work comes from a ML perspective that fetishizes "work" as a good thing, despite sex work fitting well into the category of other highly dangerous capitalist work. If your goals are focused on using the state to make people work, then it's not surprising that you want work to have a good connotation. Sex work is work, and that's not necessarily a good thing.
Wow. Thank you so much for this video. It completely changed my perspective on this issue.
So your against Jon's but you support sex workers!?
This was a hard listen. Thank you. Lots to think about.
Yes, let's!
No real critique here, but I am a bit confused as to what ending coercion actually looks like to you. Certainly, people should be guaranteed enough resources for a basic living. And we should pursue full employment so anyone who want to work has lots of good options. That would massively reduce coercion, but I'm not sure it would end it? If sex work can get me some more resources or even social status, I figure I'm somewhat coerced into it, even if there are alternatives.
I think one of the core issues of liberal sexual liberation politics that also permeates a lot of leftist spaces is the devaluation of sex as a meaningful interpersonal relationship and sexuality as an integral part of one's psychology and emotional self. Capitalism banalization of sexual relationships and the concept of "sex sells" has led to viewing sex as something no more meaningful or impactful than having a cup of coffee with a friend (I've had someone actually argue this at me) and thus something you can just buy and sell and exchange without further thought or repercussions. But it is not, and you need not go further that seeing how the wrong sexual experiences can be deeply traumatizing to see how actually important sex and sexuality are in our psyches.
I also think that this concept does so well in liberal and leftist spaces is by getting around the issue of objectifying people (mostly women as mexie says) by positing that sexuality isn't actually that serious, it's not really an important part of who you are as a person, so everything goes. In a sense it's just objectifying the part of a person that deals with sex and sexuality, but since it's not objectifying "the person" it's fine (not a great analogy, I know).
And none of that means that we should treat sex as something sacred and untouchable, or that we should be puritanical or ashamed of it. I think there's a middle ground where we can acknowledge that sex and sexuality are meaningful and important without mystifying it and shaming its presence and on the flipside we can be sex positive and normalize sex and sexuality without ignoring and devaluing the importance they has for our psychological and emotional well being.
All this relates to the discussion of sex trade because I don't think people talk enough about the enourmous amount of emotional labour that goes into it. If we accept that sex is related and affects our psychology and emotional state, we have to talk about how turning it into something you do for monet to survive does to you. In leftist spaces there's a lot of talk about how a lot of work areas involve emotional labor in a way that is very taxing and degrading, but for some reason all that disappears when talking about sex trade. It feels like people assume that sex trade is something easy and mechanical like moping a floor like Mexie said, and that it doesn't involve a lot of psychological and emotional factors, and that's one of the most objectifying and dehumanizing things I can think of.
I think I have a similar view to yours, I don't like the hook up culture (afraid to catch feelings) I believe sex is an emotional experience that can strengthen bonds and emotional connections so I think devaluing it like this is kind of sinister.
YEp! I feel ashamed that I still like things like professional pole dancers etc and boudoir. I ealize that I only ever enjoy stuff that feels like a celebration of humanity/the prettiness of an individual. When it comes time to pay money, I realize that I am treating them like an art peice and not a real woman that I would go on a date with or just be friends with. I am happy that the autistic parts of these professions (like pole dance) are being seperated from the exploitation and can just be pole dance classes for my friends who want to have a physical activity
@@philipb.3758 I feel like people should internalize that the sex workers ARE people who have friends and go on dates. This kind of falls into madonna/whore complexif you can't grasp the idea of being friends with sb who manifests their sexuality in a certain way
Thanks Mexie, keep on kicking ass girl
Amazing video!!!
I'm so happy that you didn't strawman anyone, bc this happens so much in the discourse about sex work (idk what term to use here tbh).
As you mentioned, accusations of swerf-ism are being thrown at anyone who has critiques of the status quo surrounding the practises of selling sex and a lot of leftists are pretending that this line of argumentation is exclusive to liberal individualism when in reality there are a lot of people who acknowledge that most work is exploitative under capitalism while still seeing the uniquly exploitative aspects of selling sex in this regard.
On the other hand you didn't do that annoying "sex work is inherently bad regardless of circumstances" argument which is often used in extremly patronizing way. It's great that you acknowledge that there exist sex-workers who don't try to escape. I feel like many rad-fems (not even neccesarily SWERF's) focus dogmaticly on eliminating practice of sex-work instead of eliminating conditions that can coerce (economicly or otherwise) people into doing sex-work they don't want to do. It's also great that you mention drawbacks that sexworkers themselves can face when we try to solve this problem with rigid criminalization (and the anarchist critique of not relying on the state and police in protecting sexworkers)
So after i praised your video for few minutes I want to actually add sth to the conversation, haha.
What do you think should be the expectation of men (and people of other genders) who want to be true allies of sexworkers? Will true allyship require not buying sex/watching porn in any way? Or to ask this question diffrently: do you think that there can exist a way to ethically buy sex under capitalism? Bc there are sexworkers who don't want to stop being sexworkers, who don't work under pimp, etc. but it doesn't necessarily mean that buying from such sexworkers is making the act of buying ethical. I'm curious what is your opinion on that?
Ngl I've been arguing against sex industry abolition for a little while mainly because I haven't been able to get my head round this particular critique. The way you've explained it here actually made it make proper sense for the first time and help break through some of the individual liberalism block that I had so thanks. Not sure if it's moved me to agree with everything in the video but at least now I understand the points to grapple with and definitely shifted me a tonne in half an hour. Great work comrade
Hear hear. While I’m coming from a different place, and was challenged in different ways, I absolutely agree that this was a powerful presentation of ideas, that made all sorts of sense. Thank you for your labor here, Mexie. You’ve created something good, that will help create other future goodness.
I would say until capitalism is abolished we can’t abolish the sex trade. I am inclined to support de criminalization now and abolishing sex work after.
To be pro sex worker, but anti sex work.
@@julesjules5439 Right - and the most compelling arguments from sex workers are against attempts to abolish the sex trade. But that's not the end point. We can still talk about what the existence of the sex trade means and how participating in it is harmful and misogynist without allowing increased police power to be the only solution to that harm. Which the question to ask then is what can/should be done about the sex trade? And while Mexie doesn't precisely say these words in the video, I think at least one individual conclusion might be "don't participate in it".
@@camipco I suppose our best course is de criminalization and making sure the discourse has criticism focused on the industry and not those who are forced into the trade- kinda reiterating what you said…
… beyond that advocating for socialism or at the minimum social welfare to improve material conditions so as to hopefully reduce the need to enter the trade.
this video was so necessary!!
Devil's advocate here, but is the advice then to not watch porn or hire workers in the sex industry? What about guys with disabilities who are unable to get a partner? Is it really fair to call their desire for some form of sexual gratification a sense of entitlement?
Thank you for making this video. This topic is a big reason feminists call left-wing politics "brocialism".
What do you think of RUclipsr Elly Arrow (a feminist who does videos on sex work in Germany)?
Right on! I do in fact want you to keep challenging me and you've shown me that I need to reflect on this topic more seriously than I have.
Sex is a biological human need. Humans are wired to want sex. Most people are heterosexual. Some men will always struggle to attract women and so they may turn to sex workers to satisfy their needs.
Do you have any advice for men who want sex but who cannot get sex? What are your thoughts on self help?
I've had a difficult time explaining to people how I'm PRO sex-worker and anti porn industry - it seems very contradictory, but I think you've done an excellent job opening up a good portion of this extremely multi-faceted subject that explains a lot of what I can never seem to nail down.
Amazing video, synthesizes the perspectives of a variety of women, particularly the sex workers in the global south (and not just the first world white sex workers who have a very different experience). I didn't understand how this perspective is necessarily Marxist Leninist though, I m not an ML (I m male from global south) and I find 100% of the views laid out in this video agreeable and they can be substantiated from feminist anarchist perspectives.
Sex work is work, but we should work towards abolishing the violent and exploitative relationships that push people into it. No one should have to or feel the material need to sell their sex to make a living.
There is merit in legalizing and decriminalization of sex work and itd peripheral aspects, but it will never be enough to stop there. We need to change the abusive relation that forces people into it and stop viewing sex and people as a commodity to be bought and sold. Its dehumanizing.
As usual, you kick ass Mexie
This is very welcome, because I was critical of that video and I was surprised given how much respect I have for you (love braiding switchgrass btw, thanks for that). Having organised with and been taught a lot of my politics by organisers in the sex industry
If we would have a look on a country level only, without international trade & travel. Would you say a UBI securing basic needs and legalized sex work would solve the issues of coerced sex workers in that country?
Thank you for sharing more of your thoughts on this. It has bothered me to see this issue completely watered down. I’ve always felt that the sex work discourse on the left is very convenient for a lot of men who hide behind it, touting “sex work is real work” so they can seem like feminists when really they are just horny. Like they are only interested in this conversation because they get something out of it, not really acknowledging the more nuanced implications of their behavior.
Thank you, Mexie! You really put the finger on several things I've felt about the debate about the sex trade but have not been able to articulate myself. And I also want to thank you for your humility in the opening apology.
Excellent video! A question if you care:
In your video, you emphasize how porn and the sex industry contribute to the male gaze, toxic masculinity, and the objectification of women in society as a whole. In the video you also support being supportive of sex workers while being ruthless with the system that operates them.
Given that, what do you believe the end goal is for the sex industry? Do you advocate for one day (hypothetically when the system of capitalism has been dismantled in favor of a humanitarian one) having no sex work? Do you think it is possible to live in a society where sex work/porn as we know it exists yet misogyny doesn't?
-genuinely curious
can not thank you enough for making this video and talking about things that need to be talked about. 100% agreed on everything.
Change needs to be made on a cultural level as well. The stigmas attached to people in that industry need to go and I hate to say it, but the way the media presents sex workers and people in that industry perpetuate these issues. So many movies portray a person in the industry as a drug addict, dirty or barely human. How much music involves violence toward people working in the sex industry? I hate to blame art for being what it is, but when it can influence boys into becoming toxic men, I think something needs to change.
@@greensquare6235 no no, I mean a shift in thinking from the people. like think of how cigarettes were deemed super cool and now that thinking has changed and there's a huge and steady decline in smokers. The shift in culture and perception among people brings about change. If we all think people should be helped rather than abused then things will change
I'm an anarchist but I agree almost 100% to what I've read from Esperanza about her critique of sex work. Thank you so much for making this video.
Did anyone else notice that AF3IRM, the organization that Esparanza works with, has taken a hard line against criminalization. I'm very much in agreement with men not consuming the bodies of sex workers. Yet the underlying message of the group has some SWERFy undertones.
What does "Johns as an institution" mean? /gen
I had the original video in "watch later" list ever since it was released, but now when it this one became, I finally watched it (before this one). So what I write now, is result of watching both videos.
About the question of sex work. I was thinking in this way: let's say, it is year 2150, socialism won long time ago in our society, our culture is reformed to better, socialist (or maybe even communist) society. When we look now our so society, what we see in context of sex work? Does it exist, and if it does why, and what kind it is? If it does not, why, and how it ended?
Why I ask these things, why I try to define fate of sex work in socialism? Well, I see that it is important to understand what is our goal, what we want to have (and why). This does not, or must not blind us from present day situation, but also, present day situation should not blind us from our long term goals. We need realpolitics in today, but also we should have idea what we want to be in "end".
My answers for those question of our society in year 2150 is, that most of sex work vanished when we built society where everyone have decent living standards, and no fear to lose them. (I happen few days ago watch 2h video about discussion between four western people who visited in North Korea, one of them many times because of her work, and three others just once. And one point there was talking about salary, and that salary in N.Korea is not big, but in other hand, state gives free apartment, free health care, free food, etc. So salary is kind of money which you can use for "luxury", for things you do not need for living, but what you may want to have. Well, idea is not very new for me, but I've not thought this model for long time, but I ended up to think, that "isn't it kind of UBI? State just does not give you money, but instead of apartment, or share of food, etc". So, now that idea is bit stuck in my head - does not mean that would be nesesserily model in 2150, but let's say, that in my answer it is. That everyone get for free all basic things, and salary is used only for "luxury" - games, phones, theatre, what ever..). But there may be smaller amount of people who make their individual choices, live their life in unusual ways. Something what we may define as sex work. But it is completely what they want, and they make their own rules on this, and it is not based on oppression or oppressive structures. (Well, my answer does not think about porn, or so, but anyone can think in their answer that too).
And my answer for today's situation is more like this: Selling sex isn't work (profession) we are planning to crate in long term, we should not support such development, but of course all who work in sex related work - any of them - are our comrades, our class mates, and based on what they say and feel best, we should give them full support. That we, who do not work in sex related works, we should "be artillery" for those who work, but they should be the ones who say where they want the support, they should be the ones who are the standard-bearers in that front of class war. Because it is their life, their experiences, they know best all the details.
So, all this text what I wrote so far in here, at least I see, that it is very same as you(/Mexie) said in this newer video. In different word, from different direction, but outcome is same.
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In first video, I think there was lot of important things what you said. Especially based on your personal feelings or experiences. Even when it is not absolutely new, it is still important that it is said and heard. I mean section where you said things that you felt in past that your part is make men feel good (or so). I think this kind of things should be heard - both, men and women... in order to learn away from it. I kind of want link that video for my "mundane" friends, who are not so into politics... because I want people to start learn away from old bad habits...
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Third thing... this came to my mind during first video. It is about used word. About word "patriarch". I agree things included in that word, and why such structure is wrong, etc. And historical reasons why ended to use that word for these things, for these definitions. But my consider is this: we should need try to win masses on our side, in order to change culture in this. And I see that such word may not be very agitating for many mundane males. You need first explain lot of details, and that time mundane person may already lost attention - if you know what I mean. Because change culture, is something what vanguard cannot do, we need masses on our side in this. We need everyone (well, as many as possible) to join change our culture(s) in this. So, what I suggest in this, is not really change word, but create synonym for it. Maybe some one else would create better synonyms in here, but for now, I suggest just have "hierarchy" word used as "patriarch" in mundane situation. As a socialists, we are against all kind of hierarchies in society, and we see that gender questions are not fully out from socio-economic questions or -hierarchies too. But if speaking about "patriarchal society" for mundane male, it may easily bring question "why it is my problem?" and then to discard whole topic. And same is for word "feminism". I would suggest maybe "gender equality" as synonym for agitation situations (until someone have something better to suggest). Because both genders are oppressed, but not in symmetrical ways. Maybe more like "spiral tower". But it is important, that men, males are part of fight, in similar way as middle class should be part of class war, not only poor people. Male are often "middle hand" in gender questions. Both in oppressors and oppressed in same time, and often without realising it themselves. Power structures in this will broke down, when men realise their situation in both directions, and start change it.
Of course these videos are not meant to be so agitating, but instead more discussion and thinking among comrades. I don't mean for that, just that came to my mind during "the original video".
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English is not my first language, I would had probably more details for my arguments if it would be. So, excuse my clumsiness in this. It's life.
PS. I want add - mainly for first part of my text, but maybe also just as general statement, that moralism is never answer for anything in politics. With moralism should never do decisions, or demand others to do decisions. Always by cause&effect-chains. Meaning that stigma is something what should never done for our comrades, our classmates on sex works. But not only in that question, pretty much in everywhere. Pressuring some one to feel guilty, is not way to build better society. Help to find new ways, is.
This is so similar to the need to differentiate s*xual violence from other kinds of violence. Like it is not the same *kind* of violence to be beaten up as it is to be humiliated in a s*xual assault kind of way.
Definitely. I had this "interesting" discussion with a man. I said that every time I walk back home alone in the dark and I see a group of man in front of me, or see a man walking behind me, I instantly feel afraid. Afraid that I'm going to be raped and if survived, dealing with years of trauma which sometimes lead to suicide. This leaves trauma and often PTSD in survivors. I would rather be beaten up and left with no phone and money.
And he dared to say to me, that this fear is unrealistic and I should work to get over it. I was just flabbergasted.
@@natalia499 oh my god... that is so gross and dismissive of him to have said. I am so sorry. :(
@@natalia499 Yeah, it is unrealistic. Rape is a rare crime. Don't take it out on a group of men who are minding their own business.
They should not be hampered by a woman who's paranoid and delusional.
@@natalia499 Unfortunately you are highlights he unconscious biases of society where seeing all men as potential rapists is okay. It isn't and has real world detrimental consequences on the mental health of men.
Oh yeah, let’s not forget how often sex workers are sexually assaulted by law enforcement during the course of arrest, or sometimes in lieu of.
People survived for millennia without porn access but if you bring up the idea of going without it most men react as if you’re asking them to not masturbate at all. As if they don’t realise it’s possible to do it without porn, lol.
Men act like using their imagination to masturbate is like being asked to read in the dark
AH Ancient Egyptians and Ancient India drew and many times performed sexual acts in front of each other or did drawings and NO these weren't slaves. But yeah I get what you mean.
I'm sorry but men and women use different techniques. Just because it's easy as a woman to get off to reading a boring ass book doesn't mean that will work for men aswell.
Also, even if we abolish producing porn for whatever reason, there is still so much out there that there is literally no harm in keep watching the already produced videos.
You are asking pointless things of people just because you personally are uncomfortable with it.
Most women don’t use books anyways. I guess you think males don’t have an imagination or the ability to visualise? Is that what you’re claiming? Look, I understand that addiction is a hard thing to stop but let’s not pretend anyone NEEDS erotic aids in order to get off. you think men didn’t figure out how to wank until the last century? lol.
I’m a retired sex worker, and Marxist; I would love to speak with you more about this video’s subject matter if you have the time/inclination. I am a western, white woman, so you may already have plenty of subject matter.
A great and nuanced critique, I've always had trouble with the really individualist conception of sexwork that is dominant in leftist spaces, especially when you place it in context of the economical global north and south divide , sex trade, oppressed minorities, refugees, migrants etc. who are indirectly and disproportionally forced into sex work due economic reasons. You also made a great point on how sexwork within capitalist, patriarchal and white supremacist social relations reaffirms and reproduces the male gaze and objectification of women. It indeed allows men to evade the conscious act of deconstructing their male gaze and other sexist social constructs, thus making genuine solidarity with sexworkers more difficult.
Its entitlement. Brilliant as always
Capitalism drives many into the sex industry who wouldn’t choose to be there if capitalism provided other opportunities that provide a living and thriving wage. In these cases it can be psychologically damaging.
Capitalism has also worked in many ways to destroy the family unit that would otherwise create more consensual sex interactions. Rich capitalists and people living under capitalism will also be more likely to see other human bodies as commodities.
Dr. Harriet Fraad speaks about similar issues in some of her capitalism hits home videos.
When not having _this_ job means that you may need to regularly risk rape and always get unwanted physical exposure, you've got that much worse of a bargaining position for wages and safety in this job. So employers will always be happy with dangerous and degrading sex work being behind the other door and having their position for you as a just-noticeably-lesser evil.
Exactly, people don't talk enough about how capitalism fragments consensual sexual experiences. So many people who buy into the incel ideology do so because of the contradictions and propaganda of capitalism. One thing that is common in fascist, capitalist ideologies is to emotionally stunt the men at a young age and then blame all of their emotional problems on the women, which is, culturally, commonplace in the US at least. This is a potent breeding ground in the "free marketplace of ideas" for incel or incel-adjacent ideology.
@@Madhatter1781 Particularly starting with millennials, people are delaying (sometimes indefinitely) things like living on their own, getting married, starting a family, and the maturity/responsibilities associated with those things gets stunted. Instead people live lifestyles centered around things like wanderlust, thrill seeking, partying, etc. There’s a lot of fear of missing out and pressure to live that prevalent aloof lifestyle. It’s a feedback loop that makes people even less desirable as serious partners. Now we’re seeing more open promotion of non monogamy as a mainstream lifestyle. Hey if you don’t have any reason to take things seriously, your potential partners aren’t taking things seriously, and you need four incomes to live anyway 🤷♂️
"family unit...create consentual sex interactions"... Hol up
@@JebeckyGranjola Yeah, there are wrong ways to go with that certainly. Maybe better to say that capitalism disrupts stable, long-term residence that fosters consistent close relationships, including familial ones, that in turn make for generous opportunities for fully consensual sexual encounters. Bit wordy, sure, but gets there carefully.
By full decriminalization, are you saying decriminalization of sex work includes the sex worker and the buyer? Or just the worker?
Thank you Mexie
Fantastic needed critiques.
If the sex worker likes their job and wants you as a client the whole time,
and chose to get into the industry when they had other good choices for employment,
is it ok to be the client of that sex worker?
is it still engaging in r*pe culture?
I would like to see you interview some porn stars and sex workers to expose the toxicity in that industry. It is an important conversation that needs to be had. I found this a lot more relevant and thought provoking than I thought it would be initially.
I'd like to see Mexie interview/debate Alice Little.
they sexwork is work. Its the same. The assumption than is that picking tomatoes, is the same as sex. But, i think for 99 present of people its not the same. So something strange is going on here. Also, lefties shout Sexwork is work ! But since when do they care that much about work in the first place ? I dont discuss this issue with people, because they will react with anger, and stupidity. Modern lefties are pro sexwork. Woke men are pro sexwork, and i wonder if they themselves also visit sexworkers? Or is that not within the domain of woke?
Look Shazam, you don't apologize to these people because they take it as a weakness. Apologizing is how you get yourself cancelled. Just tell your point of view and what you want to tell when you think about it you don't have to apologize for not thinking about stuff earlier.
Dang. I am seeing things a little differently, as a result of this video. Maybe, a lot differently. I feel a little condemned, and that's okay. Okay. Thank you for your clear and powerful arguments
This is really awesome, anything bringing more attention to workers rights already slaps, but an even more in depth marxist-feminist analysis of the greater issue?
Pog.
you know, they say sex without consent is rape. But when you visit a sexworker, is there consent? No, because you have to pay her. Within leftist circles im not allow to think or say this. Within leftism, your as a man not allowed to tell a woman thats she looks beautifull, because thats 'the male gaze' or something like that. But you are allowed to visit sexworkers, because sexwork is 'empowering'.
Thanks for this video mexie!
@18:31 “How have we allowed the discourse to get so ridiculous?” GOOD QUESTION. 😂 I ask myself that all the time.
Haven't checked in on your channel in a few years but now that I see you're doing videos on proletarian feminism and citing Esperanza I'll be diving right back in and catching up. Glad you're still out there
Thanks for this video. The more I learned and grew away from liberalism and towards an anti-capitalist, feminist mindset, the more uncomfortable I became with these systems I had previously accepted. The commodification of sex throughout history has conditioned a lot of us in ways that take time to undo.
So ... people should be able to do it but not have do (wage and body exploitation).
Thanks for posting this. To much of my thoughts on this have left out those in the global south.
Great video! I find that this topic is one of the most hopeless ones to discuss in leftist circles. I think most of us really agree on the fundamental goals, namely that no one should have to sell sex to earn money and that everyone that doesn't want to sell sex today should be able to easily exit. So often the debates end up being two side firing at each other with needlessly polarizing vocabulary where one side is labelled something like "SWERF moralists" and the other is labelled something like "johns and rape apologists". The discussions is mired in polarizing talking points and we often fail to discuss strategies to actually improve the lives of those who sell sex, in the many forms it takes place.
@@greensquare6235 As she explained in the video, selling sex is fundamentally a completely different and much more invasive form of exploitation than washing floors. How can you not view sex as different from other forms of labor?
@@greensquare6235 I answered your question. It's much more invasive to the individual to have to sell something so private and personal. It's deeply traumatic. Are you going to answer my question or are you too busy being arrogant?
@@greensquare6235 I work in a shipyard, where there is constant risk of physical injury and where people have died. Out of the 300 people there, I don't think a single one would rather be exposed to the deep trauma that is being forced to sell sex.
@@greensquare6235 Do you view sexual assault as different from other forms of assault, or sexual harassment as different from other forms of harassment?
Excellent! Clear, well-thought out, easy to follow, non-compromising! Thank you!
Your logic in this video is flawed. Solving the material financial problems of people, doesn't necessarily mean that you are going to reduce prostitution.
You're forgetting that people in middle and upper class positions choose sex work. So it's not necessary connected to wealth. Middle class women in places like Singapore still choose sex work, so it's not a race thing either.
A lot of her video is pointing out that we are not acknowledging the MAJORITY OF SEX WORKERS - impoverished women in the global south. These individuals most definitely are in coercive situations because of poverty. Solving their material conditions while both decriminalizing sex work would allow the people who DON'T want to be sex workers exit the industery. This video is criticizing the "politics" of sex work, like in your comment, of progressive spaces online that only acknowledge the fairly privileged perspectives of Western sex workers.
@@CanteLizzie I specifically mentioned women in Singapore, but I'm not surprised that you ignored that.
There is a growing middle class throughout different African nations, and both men and women engage in some sort of sex work.
It is people like you and Mexie who use the term Global South has a euphemism for poor people. Completely ignoring the economic differences between regions and countries. A generalized approach is not the correct approach, in the 21st century.
My last point, in the last year of the 19th century Kipling wrote about the white man's burden. In the 21st century, white women like you and Mexie think it is your burden to save black and brown women, while demonizing black and brown men, think Samantha Powers and R2P. What is needed is arrogant, know-it-all white women to stop preaching and interfering.
@@mj6115 @M J H I didn't mention Singapore because you specifically mentioned 'middle-class women.' It's not just about "the global south." It's specifically IMPOVERISHED afab sex workers that also happen to be majorly in the 'global south.' This isn't a sweeping generalization but a reference to the empirical evidence about how the vast majority of sex work is done in these circumstances. Your points are valid but just show that you either didn't watch the video at all or have no critical thinking skills. The video is ALL ABOUT how the current discourse on sex work is led by white, privileged sex workers in western countries. She is criticizing the sweeping generalizations made when talking about sex work in progressive spaces. She is criticizing the focus on whiteness in sex work despite the majority of sex workers being BIPOC. She may be white but all she is is pointing out problematic things that she believes are harmful. Would you prefer she just say nothing? Like you said in your comment "it's not a race thing." I don't know her so I can't say for sure, but I don't think she's discussing this to help the 'poor brown people.' She's just talking about an issue that happens to largely effect people of color.
I only replied to your comment in the first place because your sentiments were EXACTLY what she was criticizing. You make no acknowledgement of the impoverished individuals who are be coerced into prostitution due to misogyny, colonialism, and capitalism and instead focus only on the middle and upper-classes who participate in sex work to justify your politics. Not everyone in the 'global south' is poor. No one said it was. Not every sex worker in the 'global south' is coerced into sex work. No one said they were. None of your criticisms apply to the video at all. The goal is not to end sex work. The goal is to improve the material circumstances of poor individuals so that they do not have to turn to sex work if they do not want to. Solving their material conditions is EXACTLY what should be done.
I don't know if this is defensiveness is coming as a sort of natural response against potentially reactionary views like that of swerfs (which is understandable) but you seem to be taking out all the nuance of the conversation while accusing others of doing the same. The video was ALL ABOUT discussing the lack of nuance in the discussion of sex work and brought up some problems she felt aren't usually addressed. It wasn't criticizing sex work but rather the discourse around it and how it excludes millions of sex workers. It was more a critique of capitalism and the patriarchy than anything.
Thank you for sharing your time to educate on this topic. You've given me a lot to think about.
Which gender are the bigger consumers in the retail world? 🤔 And which "romance" novel was the bestseller in 2013 (btw I don’t even approve of this book)?
I live in Geneva (Switzerland) since 2019 and was pleasantly surprised that sex trade was legal. Personally, being a demisexual straight man, the sex trade doesn't offer me anything! But as a former EMT in another country where it was illegal and after being confronted to human trafficking in several situations, I was and am 100% for a safe and legal work environment.
I love this video, I don’t rewatch things usually because of autism & adhd, but I also relate so much I’ve shared parts of this. I have one issue that really hits me and feel an intense sensation to share my perspective (regardless if it’s appreciated or not):
I feel it is human nature to want physical connection. It is because of the patriarchy that the system appears to require a drove of sexual servants for one gender. I feel an aspect of your argument belies the effect of the trauma society has wrought on non-white-cis. Due to the way things are, the sexuality of the repressed becomes repressed…. Look, physical touch is necessary to feel whole, across the board. I have been wounded in a way I now reject sexuality, yet used to adore sexual behavior. It’s not just that “men need sex” since everyone does. with the power systems in play “women” have ptsd around sex and thus it makes the appearance of the male gaze you describe.