Why body position is changing
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- Опубликовано: 20 ноя 2023
- What we've known about motorcycle body position on the track hasn't changed for a long time. Until now. With the advancement of aerodynamic packages on the bike, body position is being forced to change to make best use of it. Keep watching to find out how.
(Shout out to the Oxley Bom MotoGP podcast for sending me down this rabbit hole with a fantastic episode on the current state of aero in MotoGP)
Find it here - open.spotify.com/show/1Uo1uNx...
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Pat Hennen and Suzuki were playing with this in the 70's. They had two wings on front/side of fairing, but they were driven by motors that would change angle of attack as the bike was turned in effectively killing the downforce in the corners. Look carefully at old pics and you will see them.
In today's world that would be only considered "cheating" unfortunately.
@@Psychoh90rubbish. In todays world there are rules about it… and back then, clearly not.
The big question is, "where will they put aeros next?" On the rider? On the clip-ons? Why not make the little screen into a wing of some sorts? Mudguard wings?
If they put it on the hump on the suit, they could eliminate the resistance when they are upright, but gain a little when they move their head to one side...
Adding active aero instead of passive would be more powerful, would avoid the negatives and would be very fun to watch.
Active aero on a bike would be absolute blasphemy
Would it though?
@@aaronjeffries9617why?
The added cost, weight and points of failure negate any of the benefits for active aero
I don't think active aero should be allowed in motogp (The same wat¡y it's forbiden in Formula 1 apart from the DRS), but I'd be nice to see something like a H2R show what can be achived with it
It's great to have you making videos again!! Love your beginner course
Thanks so much Ted
Well explained!! The old dustbin fairings, used once upon a time, were banned, and I for one would love to see ride height devices and wings go the same way.
Just don't watch MotoGP, it's the only racing series with all these devices
@@future62 😁
I’m very curious to see how a modern dustbin fairing would work in a modern context after sixty years of bike development.
All rider aids should be gone, no tc, wings etc, just the best bikes with the best tyres with the best riders on top.
This is MotoGP not WSBK.
Welcome back! I watched every single video of yours before my first track day last October, and was very bummed that you no longer made content.
Thrilled to have you back! Cant wait to learn some more tips and garner a deeper understanding of "track physics" in preparation for next season!
I had missed this style of tutoring. Glad you are back!
TLDR: We have become ailerons and flaps 😂. Genius!
This is outstanding content. I'd say I have a pretty decent understanding of how a MotoGP bike works myself, yet I had NO idea about this stuff before. Keep it up!
Thank you for such a concise and needed video! Keep up the great work
Happy to see you are back! I got my motorcycle license last year and because of your videos I have understood and improved my riding. Especially on the track, cant wait to try some of the new things you will talk about in coming videos on the track next summer 😊
Im 54 and started riding at 14 got my licence at 17 . No fun to be had on the road any more so i'm doing my first track day next April at Snetterton, maybe see you out there one day 👍ride safe.
So good to see LAL back! Some of the best education content for motorcycles on the Internet 👌
Yay, welcome back! Great to see a new track video from you!
Man, glad to have you back. Such a wholesome video and simply flabbergasted. Please bring more information like these, makes for great brain-food. Cheers!
great to have you making videos again!
So happy your back. Keep up the good videos.
Absolutely wicked video, very interesting topic, and your explanations and videos do a fantastic job making the point clear. I'm very impressed!
Good to see you sharing info!
Keep up the great job bro!
Thanks
I used to watch ALL your videos a few years ago, and all of sudden you disappeared. Glad you are back and thank you for all your previous videos!!
Top tier bike channel. Super happy you’re back!
It's good to know how aerodynamics work in one package. They're great, and rider input is excellent. Thank you.
You explained it all very well. And those slo-mos! Incredible.
Thanks to comeback with your videos!
Glad to see you back.
I can't imagine how long it took you to research and edit this video.
Best of luck in making this channel work for you 👍
The important thing is I enjoyed it 😊
Firstly Dan, I'd like to say I am so glad you're back here and with awesome material too. I totally agree this aero wing ting won't affect the likes of me cos I ain't no Moto GP rider and I ain't even fast enough. But this insight into the wings and their constant evolving is very interesting, personally I think, having wings on top of wings and more wings on top of those is just plain 'Ugly' but the Aprilia RS GP bikes have the best looking wings for sure. Thank you for helping me become a much better track rider. I have never unsubscribed you cos your old content is so damnd good. Cheers Sir
@@macsmith6216 So you know better then??? Please enlighten us with your shite!
Welcome back! Good to know this extreme position is only relevant to motogp; seems to be all over social media.
Good to see you making videos again!
Thank you for educating us!
Thank you for showing me this new perspective. I'm working on a video about hanging off right now and think to mention this new development in it.
Great to see you back!
Cool stuff. This all seems to have come about since I stopped tracking sport bikes so it was cool to get brought up to speed on it all! Thanks!
Glad to see you back!
Very interesting video. Thanks, I haven't thought of that.
very cool video! interesting info in a concise, non-clickbaity way. i just added a motogp bike to be compared on my website and it's amazing to see the differences.
Happy to have you back Dan!
Really glad I found this channel👍 I ride a 1999 CBR RRS track ready. Cant road race and keep a licence, the good old days have gone thanx to a camera on every corner and car.
The leaning and hanging off position for me is like horse ridding, know the horse feel the animal and then tell it whats happening next, (yes I can ride a horse) cant wait to race on a track with no oncoming or blue flashing lights, bring on next April. Ps anyone that thought all the wrong things about "feel the animal" you should be ashamed, go get a shower and be round mine by 7.30, don't be late, bring wine.
The ANGELD wings I didnt know why before this video
INFORMATIVE......Thank you
The riders should also wear "squirrel suits". In the event they high-side, they can just float safely to a safe landing.
Thank you wonderful information 👍👍
Great explanation. Need hinged, spring loaded winglets that extend under centrifugal force on the outside of the turn. Asymmetry is tricky.
Nice to see you back 😉
I’ve always thought that the fork uppers were the best place for downforce producing wings. The outside wing would be exposed to the oncoming airmass at lean while the inside one would be blocked somewhat by the wheel / tire. The downforce would also be directed down at the ground (pushing the contact patch into the ground) rather than pushing outward against the contact patch. That factor seems more likely to be at play with the greater rider lean angles; they’re having to get even further to the ground to keep the bike up because the wings are pushing the contact patch wide rather than down into the ground. Also I’m pretty sure the relevant downforce happens at the wing surface rather than behind it. Actually I know that’s true.
It's all well and good for the riders to change. For me it is always how comfortable I feel. And each bike can be different.
Oh my God, bro after so long good to see you
I haven't followed any motorcycle racing, but have seen some recently and I noticed that their body position was less aggressive than I expected. Now I know why. They gotta block that wind, crazy.
very interesting analysis!👍
I've been following this item for lots of years. In my opinion I think there is another effect which I think is very important about the new riding position.
We have to understand if you find yourself in a position like this you are handling a bike on the very edge of physical possibilities. So you are always fighting the risk of crashing and the worst thing which you are trying to avoid is a highside crash.
And this body position means the whole center of gravity of the rider's body is more moved to the inside (as you have shown in the graphics at 3:14).
This also means further away from the risk of getting thrown to the highside when being on the very edge of tyre friction with the risk of a highside scenario which you are always trying to avoid as a rider. Also you have a millisecond more reaction time and also physical space to subconsciously interact when it comes to sliding on the very limit to prevent a crash. And you are closer to the tarmac which helps when in a sliding scenario when preventing a crash you might need to save a crash with knee and elbow. I believe all these crazy saves that we have seen from MM and others in the recent years are possible only due to that.
That's at least the outcome of my personal research on the new riding style ;)
not MotoGP but national championship.
....what about you ??@@macsmith6216
I haven't watched MotoGP for ages. Those leans are amazing. They could push a penny on the ground with their shoulders.
Great video
Martin is the current master. Makes for some amazing photos.
YOUR BACK!!!🎉
good insight
I"m enjoying Moto 2 more than GP sometimes..same for Moto 3..the track battles are epic...and when it comes to looks ,Moto 2 are gorgeous without all the winglets ,fins & aero in general..
Great video 👌
Very interesting video 👏
Total class using Rossi, the guy who, perhaps, had to learn the most. Also loved your graphic with the bike that needed a front tire. That sucker was flat in the middle! Thanks for another great video. Glad that you're back.
He's back!!!
4:02 well. That is officially the lowest I’ve ever seen. That’s insane. 😮😮😮
Welcome back!
Never used to watch bike racing when i did track days. Yet i used to stick my leg out, it just felt natural. Thrn one day i watched a race and i shouted out to my wife ' i do that ' haha.
Welcome back! Very interesting short video! MotoGP nowadays is the exact opposite of F1. In F1 top Teams need to save tyres as long as they can, aiming for a 1 stop strategy as many times as possible -> boring. MotoGP is 100% every lap from start to end. If the riders are not up to the task and loose even 1 secs they are done -> it has reached the limit. This started when Bridgestone came out in 2008, with Lorenzo driving style, but then there was no areo, electronic was a bit less sophisticated and so were the bikes.
I would say that MotoGP and riders really need either a second tyre manufacturer (i.e. before 2008) or just see Michelin out of it be replaced by Dunlop, Pirelli or Bridgestone.
This would either stop the aero development or address it in another direction, which would be nice, since this development has reached riders' limit.
I dream of a MotoGP with two tyre manufacturers, Moto that have some aerodynamic shapes but less impactful, mainly due to the effect that some otherwise harmless contact has in today's races when loosing a single winglet. Tyres that actually degrades, couple this with a bit less power and/or electronic, riders would be able develop racing strategies that are not "I push at 99.9% for half of the race so I can push100% for the other half", but actually using different set of tyres that behave differently, and generally speaking see who is best in treating fresh vs worn out tyres. I still remember Argentina 2015 like it was yesterday. Marquez chose medium and soft since it suited the Honda best, Rossi chose Hard and ExtraHard. Marquez at 5 seconds gap from the 2nd position by half the race but his tyres went down while Rossi's started to overtake everyone and gain on Marc until last 3 laps. We know how that went. This is just an example I vividly remember.
I think a good analogy for the inside turn braking would be to think of sticking the hand out of the window when driving
I have missed your videos!
3:55 Absolutely awesome shot of Jorge Martin. I really wanted him to win the championship. Hope he'll do it in 2024.
The extreme lean angle is acheived because of the tyre profile which has changed significantly over time.
And your point is……?
He never said different.
Great video! Glad to have you back. Keep them coming
he is back!!!
Welcome back
It would be more appropriate to show a picture of Peter William's overtaking Sheene and Read through Woodcote corner. His bike was capable of leaning 60° from vertical. On that particular occasion he left a white line all round the fastest corner in GP racing.
But he did this on the first generation of slicks.
I think it's more about the new riding style, where you lean much more with your body just to pick up the bike faster and get more traction, aero it's just a plus that MotoGP bikes have. Just look Acosta, Moto2 World Champ: he leans his body so much, with a bike that has no winglets or aero as a MotoGP
What information, and free! John P.
HES BACK🔥🔥
Welcome back! BUT, I am going to have to disagree SOME on this one! :) . I've been, like a lot of us here, been studying "New GP body positions" ON track for a while now, this new lower position has been "out" fo a while and before aeros".
I found that this low and out body position to mainly help for 2 reasons, "winglets or no winglets"!
1-When I started to do it, I immediate notice the advantage of "having more weight/traction on the front tire" voila!
2-We have a 120-145mph ( I do it at 145 :) corner 8 at Willow Springs Raceway in SoCal USA. You HAVE to put your upper body low/chin close to your hand to "be more aerodynamic" and one initially does it instinctively as you feel the wind it going to blow you off the bike at those speeds! But then you realize how much better and smooth this way is, so I also started doing it on "every corner", and bam! my lap times decreased by 2-4 secs. HOWEVER, the same for tucking in on the straights and NOTE here! You MUST have a flexible neck to bend it backwards! otherwise you won't be able to do it and "still see well ahead of you" , Peace!
That’s cool. Have you posted any pictures or videos of you doing it? Sounds really good.
You’re obviously not the average rider he’s talking about.
Also you are much closer to the ground with your elbow out instead of smacking your head if you lowside. I have always been amazed how these guys crash so often and relatively rarely get hurt.
Neck fatigue is something that comes up in my track journal and I'm not leaning wicked like Jorge Martin either. Going to try to improve that during the off season. I found that keeping my opposite arm resting on the tank helps keep my head and body a few inches further out. Plus the additional point of contact with the bike gives me a lot more feedback. I'm guessing you're hip to this already though. And for Dan... good to have you back making videos!!
I don't actually disagree with you. My feeling is simply that track riders don't HAVE to ride like this to go fast (obviously not counting 120mph+ corners 😅). If it works for you though, fantastic. In MotoGP it's becoming more important to ride like that to make best use of the aero, however.
Freddie Spencer was leaning this far off whilst keeping his bike as upright as possible in the seventies. There's a YT video of him on a Honda superbike around Daytona explaining it.
Complex solution, independent active wings that change based on lean angle and speed?
It would be interesting to see regulations freed up to allow dustbin fairings again.
At 1:45 you say moving to the inside of the bike reduces lean angle. But it doesn't. Here in the US Josh Hayes and Josh Herrin were teammates on R1 superbikes. Herrin hung off like Marquez and Miller. Hayes moved just one butt cheek off the seat and kept his torso higher. There is plenty of footage of them racing head to head, turn for turn where Hayes turned a tighter radius with less lean angle.
Quite interesting, I didn't think through before how the bike angle changes how the wings do their job (side force as well as downforce). However, I think areo should be disallowed, with respect to adding winglets, both in front and in back. Where will it stop, and 5 more years from now, what will a race bike look like. Think of how F1 cars have changed in the last 10-15 years in appearance. I say, let the rider's body position and the bike's fairing shape be the limits of areo for racing. That and rubber compound and the decisions of what to use for a given track and weather condition should be the determinants of what the bike can do, along with the rider's ability.
I did a bit of amateur road racing in the 1980's, from 350cc to literbikes, with no more than what the factory provided with the fairings, plus the tires and how crazy the rider was to get an edge on the other guys. Wearing out a knee pad or two was the norm, but now you see the GP riders dragging elbows and even their shoulder now. There has to be a practical limit to the equipment somewhere in any sort of motor racing, and it then comes down to the individual in/on the machine to make the difference
Great video! Do you think aero is positive for MotoGP?
One downside that has been mentioned around aero in MotoGP is that since the downforce helps pilots breake harder at the end of a straight, it results into less overtakes. This is because when a pilot is behind another's pilot slipstream it loses this downforce. Wdyt?
I think aero in itself is fine, but I feel it (and other devices) needs to be limited so that these bikes don't become too easy to ride and we get in a situation where the bike matters a lot more than the rider.
makes me winder when we could see rider wearing wing suits 😮 or jet packs for the added vector thrust
It would make more sense to work on the front as well as the back. put such large ones on the sides of the backsplash? I always wonder why they do not try to compress the back when the bike takes the angle?
The wings will soon be connected to the gyroscopic circuitry and will adjust themselves using servomechanisms, depending on speed, lean angle, etc.
What if they add active aero? the wings tilt for best of both worlds, both wings would try and stay "flat" when going through turns.
Nice
Welcome to the world of variable aerodynamic controls, also known as flying qualities. Next to the X-29 at NASA Dryden in California, there was a program to research variable geometry wing camber which included similar differential "blocking" of airflow to achieve, among other things, higher roll or turn rates.
Things will continue to progress, depending on whether the rule makers for MotoGP allow it.
That's so interesting. I bet Gigi Dall’Igna read those research papers!
@@LifeatLean This was a very short but comprehensive & technical way of explaning the new way of riding the Gp bike. It's seems like Marc 2013 riding style that made every rider thought to enhance their riding style like Lorenzo's extreme sweeping lines when he was at Yamaha has been once again move to another level. Due to the Aerodynamic era of the bikes. No wonder Martin, Quartararo & Bastianini's hanging kind of style seem the best way to utilize the bike of today.
Great topic, I hope to see you get more of this view & also all the stuff related to MotoGP like the exciting new team Trackhouse Racing entering MotoGP. What they can really bring in the Championship & why this is a successful venture for both the team & MotoGp.
It's good right if they can find the way to mash this up without messing up the races that would be good. Removing Aerodynamic by 2027 isn't the right way as it's always been integral part of of the evolution the Gp bikes. If they would do that. They can lose Ducati & even Aprilia which heavily invested to this direction. I think they just need to find new ideas to keep this going & at the same time reduce the dirty air created by it.
Gigi Dallig'na & other clever engineers who work in the other manufacturers for sure trying to figure this out & studying to make it work for 2027 onwards.
Soooo great to have you back at it Dan!!
I truly like your educational content. It is well structured and clearly presented. Interesting explanation on how aerodynamics and body position work together at the highest level. What is the effect of aero-wings on street bikes when used by amateurs on track?
About as useful as using tire warmers when you're 20 seconds slower than top riders whatever class of bike you're on.
At this point in time I don't think it's worth concerning yourself with it, in my opinion.
3:53 when riding meets art
First! Nice to see you again!
OMG OMG OMG HES BACK
Honestly i prefer GoonRiding or to stay in Line To the bike, to have a better respose and balance, but obviously it affects my speed, but i dont care too much about loosing a couple of seconds if i can stay comfortable.
Muy interesante, pero recomiendo ver los vídeos de Chicho Lorenzo, que algo sabe del tema y de formas campeones, y explican estas cuestiones con fundamento desde hace mucho tiempo. No es un video original en youtube.
They need to start using active aero
i cant wait to see this advancement translated to f1
How much force is generated ?
Cool
It sounds like the winds may be "adjustable" in the future the front end of the bike as well as the back will be able to change as the rider goes through the corner for maximum downforce . Cars will benefit even more than motorcycles the shape of the vehicle will change as you enter and exit a corner. A material revolution .computer ai-controlled hard surface.
As tired as and suspension and chassis improves, the bikes can corner harder and harder, this means more lean angle.
At a certain point, you run out of clearance, so riders need to hang off more and more to keep hard bits off of the track.
Aero is taking advantage of that in some cases, but it is more of following riders positions and developing aero around that, than designing aero, and forcing the riders to hang off to use it.
TLDR: They hang off for clearance, not aero. Aero adapted to this.
so you are alive
Why aren't the wings on rollers activated by lean angle, so lean left and left wing goes up and right down keeping them parallel to the ground. So the wings would need to either be on a curved beam or on vertical tracks with some counter balance. They could also then perhaps be at axle height so working on the wheels, not the body and therefore not upsetting handling and bike dynamics as much.. Just some loosely thought out thoughts I suspect we will see in the future. Perhaps motor driven wings could be the answer to keep them parallel to the ground or folding like plane rudders whatever they're called.
That would come under active aerodynamics..... Not permitted
@@StoffelDilligas ahhh, what if they were like tubes with fluid in them? Maybe make them part of the fuel system to dodge the rules, lol.
Great simple explanation! Thanks!
🤔🤦♂