Motorcycle Riders - Hanging off & The Science behind it
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
- Hanging off: You see MotoGP riders do it, I sometimes do it, and you probably do it.
But how does it actually work? Why should we do it? And Is it really as effective as you think it is?
Lets figure this stuff out.
#motorcycle #racing
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If Mike was my science teacher in school, I would've gotten things so much better
Thanks!
@josephbuckler3919 somehow I'm not so sure about becoming a barber...
You are a Physicist or an engineer? I (as a physicist) say that your analysis is pretty spot on! Kudos!
Engineer. Thank you!
It is not lateral acceleration but centripetal acceleration for a=v^2/r
@@flippyfiller Yup, the lateral acceleration for a motorcycle.
kineticorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/2015-01-1422-validation-of-equations-for-motorcycle-and-rider-lean-on-a-curve.pdf
@@flippyfiller Well,... strictly speaking, centripetal acceleration is the lateral acceleration in a circular motion. Since in a track you rarely follow a strictly circlular motion, but rather a combination of straight, elyptical, hyperbolic, also circular...etc, it makes more sense to refer to lateral and longitudinal acceleration! So, Mike used the correct term! Richard Feynman said at some point in an interview, that he doesn't understand why people are so obsessed with knowing the names of things, when they should be focusing on understanding their nature. The way I see it, things don't inherently have names, but they always have the physical properties, that they are supposed to have, irrespectively of the name we decide to give them.
@@flippyfiller geeezzzzz stop trying to measure D!ck$. Anyone who understands this is pretty darn smart (that includes you I'm sure).
This is my main thing that captivates me about MotoGP and motorcycle racing in general. The science behind all this is absolutely memorizing
What about the "sail effect" of hanging off which increases wind resistance on the inside of the turn and facilitates the turn? I think that alone explains why you were faster on long sweepers hanging off. Long sweepers are high-speed turns and increasing wind resistance on the inside of the the bike by itself will turn the bike and allow less lean angle and more confidence to go faster.
sail effect works really well on braking too, popping up and opening your knees drops a whole lot of speed before you even touch the brakes, there's no way hanging off doesn't apply some force to help in the turn.
@@Ledfndr Yes! Exactly.
@@Ledfndr Thats what I thought it was more for as well
Well as an 32 years old and a 2003 R6 rider for 7 years now, i got to say that your body going out of the bike is really important, I'm almost always using batlax tires and they wore off very quickly but the grip is awesome, the thing is when your tires are wearing off you feel the rear dancing and the more you lean the motorcycle, more dangerous it is and I try to lean my body more and the bike less so that i won't go to the ground and up until today, i never went, i got some close calls and learn to lean my body more without the bike and it works wonders... All this in the city were the roads are bad and you have traffic and lights, not on track were you go full speed without worrying with other vehicles, and I'm not a reckless driver, sure i did over speed limits sometimes but when there's no traffic and plenty of space to do it. Anyway, if you're talking about safety and not speed, yeah leaning is very important to me, i feel more safe to maneuver my bike and faster if something happens in the city by adjusting my body more and less the bike just because my body would interfere less and toke more time in some situations than the bike and i can alter the direction with the bike smoother while my body is still changing positions. In my honest opinion, just drive the way you feel more comfort because it's not only the race or speed, the feeling of riding a bike is something i can't feel on anything else and that's the most important thing to me. Please be safe and enjoy your corners fellow riders. Sorry for bad inglish, love from Portugal 👊😎
Hanging off and keeping that few degrees margin allows faster correction in an unexpected situation. Being able to tighten the curve might be very helpful on road conditions. Thanks for the movie!👍🏼
Yes, this is why it's super important. Yamaha champions really puts this into perspective. As they say, "load the bike before you work the bike." Every movement takes time and adds stress to the physics. Both things you don't have much of when going fast on a bike.
This is by far the best informative video i've seen on youtube in a long time. You sir have earned a sub
Wow... Thank you. (I am an engineer with Ph.D.)..You just explained something I have been feeling, but just could not explain while I am riding for some times. ... Yes, body position (or hanging off) is important, but 'slow in' and 'fast out' with as good of line selection as possible at my level is the key !!! THANK YOU.. 🥰
"Slow in, Fast out" has much more to do with the traction circle and carrying more speed down the following straight. Explaining things one at a time makes sense. This video was about lean angle and hanging off.
Dalahorse and proper pronunciation of Husqvarna, I like this video.
Borde fått med en blå gul flagga också!
Only thing missing the the correct pronunciation of Öhlins
This is slightly above my paygrade but I just love the scientific approach. And the editing is great. Hats off to you, sir.
Love your videos man, I only watch your channel for a couple of hours but I learned so much of you appreciate it!
More hanging off -> less lean of the bike -> more tyre contact -> more traction -> faster corners
When you have not that great tyres (or below optimal temperature) or the pavement is not that grippy those few less degrees of bike angle really make a difference tho
KIND OF, i was wondering an i can safely say: Watch the difference between ISLE OF MAN TT AND MOTOGP.
In motogp, guys go fast and can use A LOT their body because the TRACK IS VIRTUALY PERFECT.
BUT in a road racing, you just CANT DO IT, you need to keep a classical riding style cause a normal road has a lot of bumps and different grip levels along its way, sometimes along one corner path.
SO with your body BEING LESS OUTSIDE THE BIKE, its is FASTER and SAFER to recover from any abnormality.
IF you do the motogp body positioning style in road race, you will NOT HAVE TIME TO RESET your body position and SAVE the failure.
So, its safer to ride in a less extreme positioning when youre in a road.
@@evilzinabyssranger5695 you know where you can stick your caps lock?
@@evilzinabyssranger5695 I think it’s more dangerous to lean the bike on shit roads than it is to hang off. Tar snakes, debris, water, oil, potholes, all cause loss of traction. The more your bike is leaning during the slip, the better chance you have of crashing
You say that leaning off only helps a small amount of degrees. But every degree matters because every degree matters for the amount of tyre on the tarmac. You see it with beginning track riders. Often very slow not using their body and have having high lean with really slow laptimes. Also entering corners to slow because the brake to hard. Release the brake to early and unload the front suspension and front tyre and ruin the corner speed. I really liked the comparison with supermoto between legg out and body out. Very interesting.
Amount of tyre on the tarmac? I'd actually contend there is no difference once off-vertical. The shape of the tyre means it hardly changes until you reach the absolute extreme.
@@DiscoFang It depends on the shape and wear of the tyre. The tyre is not perfectly round and tapers off to the side. And yes indeed when comparing lean angles one can argue that at some lean angles the difference is almost zero. One could even say that a very worn tyre on the track that as gotten a more triangle like shape has better grip on a very specific lean angle. In general you can say that more lean on the bike means less tarmac on the road, even tho under some angles the difference is pretty much zero.
That's me all over! Just done my second track day, made a vlog of both my first and second days if your interested, anyways I find exactly what you say, I'm not properly using my body to lean off and not carrying speed through the corners, I have been riding on the road for about 12 years though and think that has made it harder for me to change my riding style to lean off. Either way very interesting topic.
So many variables but one worth mentioning is that it may be easier to find our reference points both visually and anatomically with the position we adopt in any given turn.
THANK YOU. Your videos are truly interesting and informative. And THANK YOU for not starting all of your youtube videos with "hey guys WHATS UP? Like virtually EVERY OTHER wannabe motorcycle and automotive video channel.
Glad you like them!
Tie a small plumb bob (fishing line) to something on the higher part of your fairing, then you’ll be able to calculate the angle to a more accurate level because you’ll have a plumb line in your footage of the plumb bob
Cool idea!
I remember back in the 80's, when I began riding, there wasn't much hanging off, but more knee out, as it was used as an air brake to rotate one around the corner better and slow down, with the inferior brakes and tires back then. Actually at the police mc courses today here in Denmark, the instructors don't recommend hanging off as there's to little to gain with modern tires, it's only advised to lean head in to corner and look out of the curve, but than again it's for fast driving on public roads and not extreme racing, where split second counts, where there are no obstructions to crash into.
My only thought is that hanging off might help you to ride 'looser' on the road (not racetrack), reducing the de-stabilising effect of mid-corner bumps. Agree it is probably more a confidence technique rather than physics - maybe a bit of both 😄
ALSO you lean give a bit of an angle and puts the suspension under pressure, allowing you to get out of the corner faster, since the probability of a wheelie gets lower due to the compression of the suspension
True .. I think that is part of it.
Man I love all your videos. It's the true reasons behind all of the myths and legends around motorcycles
You know something that would make a really interesting video: what is the ideal body size and weight for a rider in terms of performance. With modern bikes having almost unlimited power, I feel like weight is less of a detriment than it once was. On the contrary, a taller, heavier person (not fat, but just larger build) could potentially require less lean to maximize grip in a complex series of corners, possibly allowing them to maximize them better. It would probably vary on a track by track basis, but it's something interesting to think about compared to cars or karts where almost universally lighter and smaller=faster.
SURE. Thats what happen to Pedrosa in his latest years (apart from the bike which was developed for marc, they have very different riding styles so its enough to fuck Pedrosa life)
BUT Pedrosa was ALWAYS the guy who reach the highest lean angle in the paddock. GUESS WHY?
ALSO, heavier guys could put more temperature in the tires while Pedrosa couldnt (again, development issues help this phenomenon) and because of it, they had less wheelspin outside the corners.
I bet that Pedrosa would be unbeatable in 600 or 300 cc.
The quality of the surface and the Power of the bike are also factors. If you have to correct the lean angle due to loss of Grip and/or loss of traction a more upright seating Position helps you to respond to that(offroad). The onroad explanation seems to be more hanging off.
Hej Mike!
I did the same thing to counteract the argument against chicken strips.
Bike: Tracer 900 / Fj09
With a new tire, I took a fast route while hanging off measuring the chicken strips left behind.
Then I took the same route without hanging off. Times pretty much the same.
Indeed the 2nd time, there were no chicken strips and even though the difference was less than 1cm, I felt a lot more confident hanging off without having to worry about scraping pegs, etc. At the same time, in short low-speed mountainish corners I saw that I was faster while not hanging off thus, I try not to.
Bra jobbat, love the videos since the first upload ❤️
Love this RUclips channel. Great videos, well presented, easy to understand information, a pleasure to watch all these vids. Thankyou Mike for all youve uploaded. 😎👍🏍️💨🇬🇧
Thanks for doing all that analysis Mike! even if it did surprise & confuse me... ;-)
You bet!
the amount of effort you put into making your videos is amazing man! i dont think i cant understand the formulae, but i get the jist of it primarily because of the visual demonstrations on a bike!
Kevin Schwantz had a much different style that you could see was different from any others on the track. He leaned over but his upper body was move towards the bike's CG. His lower body & knees exactly the same as the others leaning. You notice his upper body always hugging the gas tank keeping the CG over the bike more. I would love to see you test his style like you did here. He was able to slide into corners then control it from bucking him off out of the corner all before computers & traction control on 500cc 2 stroke with a on off switch throttle. Don't think many modern day riders could pull it off.
The other thing it does is place your entire body weight at the centre of the bike because of how you hang off using your leg. I think this improves the weight distribution between the front and back & therefore increases net grip & the suspension response to road imperfections.
Your videos are always so interesting! Thanks for putting in so much time, effort and dialing in all the calculations!
Liked and Subscribed! I think this was the third video that I watched from you. You have a different approach to motorcycling. It is scientific and your videos are very informative. You are doing a great job! Thank you and keep it up Sir!
But that 4/5% lean angle could be the difference between falling off or not. I think leaning off if you can and where necessary. Awesome vid
I feel more confident in corners leaning off the bike too. I wonder if it’s mostly a psychological and physiological thing because you’re positioning your body in the way you want to go, so it feels more like that’s what will happen - like you’re relying more on your body and less on the machine under you.
Maybe it has less to do with the overall physics of the center of gravity and more how you feel that center of gravity in your body while riding. Just speculating. I’m a noob.
9:24 --> this is the whole point: "fast out".
- Wide turns: Lower leaning angle means you can slightly anticipate the burst of power when exiting the curve because the bike is already more vertical.
Then, getting the pilot back to the neutral position on the saddle does not constitute a delay factor because as speed increases, so does the angular momentum of the wheels, which is what sustains the [now vertical] angle.
- Tight turns: Conversely, when the turn is tight, accuracy in drawing the right curve is more important, and that can be achieved more easily by using the arms and the steering. Also, when the turn is over, pulling back the bike is a blink, so the delay in full throttle is negligible. If however the pilot was knee out, pulling up the body to the neutral stance on the saddle would be a delay factor, because the angular momentum is lower, and hence the pilot has to exert momentum on the handlebar, delaying the acceleration.
The ideal next study would be to find the soft spot (dependent on speed, curve, and bike+pilot weight, and height) at which one should pick one or the other stance. I would be impressed if that hadn't been already addressed by MotoGP teams, but I think for their range of applications, speed are always so high to never get to need the neutral stance.
I ride mostly neutral or only with my upper body on the streets especially on my tall bike. The reasons why track racers hang in on their superbikes is they need to reduce as much lean angle as they could since they are riding the limits of their bikes. But if you want to survive the streets, just CHILL, BOOP, and ROLL hahaha
Thanks for the video!
This results are indeed amazing.
The work you had was substancial!!
I shared this video!
You must advice Motogp about things my friend, you got great knowledge, analysis ability and patience
Back in the day it was more about reducing lean angle and getting stability while steering with the back wheel. Those old 2 strokes were not very forgiving getting on the gas at high lean
If you want to use the leg out method, put lead in your boots. And think about moving ballast on the y axis changes things.
Good job on the study! I would love to see the charts myself. But this tale has been told many times - check Lee Parks's explanation - especially in relation to the suspension.
Hanging off is technically always better, but it becomes inefficient in tight corners because it takes more time and effort as compared to foot down.
I have heard of the explanation Parks gives before. How reducing the lean angle puts the suspension at a more advantageous angle, since friction in the fork tubes would prohibit it from working optimally at steep lean angles.
I have never seen any actual data or equations that quantifies the difference in performance, given different lean angles and how much the lean angle can actually be reduced by hanging off.
As I showed with both empirical data and equations, the lean angle reduction provided by body positioning is very limited.
Questions I have:
- Does changing the angle of the fork tubes by 5 degrees have a major influence on their performance?
- Does this reduction in performance lead to significant changes in tire traction?
I will look into these questions further. The answers are not obvious, and I have never seen any data regarding this.
@@MikeonBikes great questions....
@@MikeonBikes how about the ground clearance? These 5 degrees can make a difference even for mere mortals.
Answering your questions - remember what they say to do when you install the front wheel? Bounce the forks several times to make sure they are parallel before tightening those axle bolts.
Another argument - these degrees also define how early you can roll on gas.
If Olympic swimmers can set their start jump angle with 1 degree precision, pro riders should feel the 5 degrees as a giant difference.
Ground clearance, sure.
Why do 5 degrees matter? Do you have any equations or data that quantifies this?
"Answering your questions - remember what they say to do when you install the front wheel? Bounce the forks several times to make sure they are parallel before tightening those axle bolts."
That did not answer my question. The fact that the alignment of the axle bolts is important has nothing to do with the difference in tire performance for say 40-45 degrees of motorcycle lean angle.
"Another argument - these degrees also define how early you can roll on gas."
Maybe. Do you have any data or equations for this?
"If Olympic swimmers can set their start jump angle with 1 degree precision, pro riders should feel the 5 degrees as a giant difference."
You are comparing apples to oranges.
@@MikeonBikes Equations for ground clearance? You don't need them if your pegs start to scrape the asphalt - that was my point.
Bolts - it's not about them - it's about friction in forks if the tubes are not aligned - it means the wheel is not moving as freely as it could - it means less traction.
This is the same principle that applies when the bump is pushing the wheel but it cannot move because of the poor alignment.
Equations for rolling on gas? I don't have them - it's obvious that the force applied to the ground should be pointed backwards, not sideways...
Apples to oranges? You'd be amazed how much in common there's between swimming and riding...
When you go fast bike is slow responding and heavy, so leaning is an option. In slow speeds it is too sensitive so a top control is much more precise and managable. A way i see it.
Such an amazing video with so much great info. Love the start with a toy, cardboard, book and nail. Love it!
Actually when you hang off, you aim to shift your center of gravity down AND forward. The two are combined. There are so many forces and geometry that it would require very complex simulation to get remotely there. Plus there is air drag, tire drag, engine break, sheer corner speed, angular speed. None of them is constant in a turn. And obviously, there is the feeling of the rider.
I've recently seen a final lap in Assen between Roseland and Bayliss. Two opposite riding styles but equal performance overall. It's mind blowing.
You hit on what I was thinking. It’s hard to measure lean angle and speed with the same rider if you/they prefer one method over the other. The comfort and confidence factor is too large.
this and the other small factors like sticking out your knee, or whole leg can sum up a huge difference in racing. But its still pointless in the street tho. Its even dangerous to lean in corners in the street because in blind corners it delays seeing whats front of you (it can be a traffic jam or an oncoming car in the wrong lane etc...)
This is very interesting, however, I think there might be something to be said at extreme amounts of bike lean like in professional racing, where those guys are leaning so far, their lean angles would put them past the safety point of tire patch grip. In other words, that 5 deg of lean angle Marc Marquez saves by hanging off might be the difference between making the turn or lowsiding because there’s just not enough tire left for enough contact patch - whereas at mortal rider lean angles, that 5 deg might not make as much difference. 🤔. Personally, I always hang off to some degree when taking turns and sweepers very fast because I’d rather keep more of the tire’s meat on the ground even if that’s just 5 degrees of angle savings. I feel it’s safer especially if something happens that requires me to tighten my turning radius during the turn.
You have a point regarding extremes of tyre contact but until that point, any lean off dead vertical has pretty much the same contact patch. Given the shape of the tyre, there is no extra or more "meat" as you say. It's all totally a function of the center of mass (not gravity) in relation to the point of contact. Hanging-off or not doesn't alter that. I would contend that the main reason Marquez gets off and down is boot clearance with the track (footpegs) and to enable his knee to feel the surface.
This is an excellent video! Thank you for sharing Mike
My pleasure!
(Many years ago - VFR tourism)
I remember leaning out would make corrections easier. Without leaning corrections would raise/lower the front of the bike.
nobody mentions this ever - Am I dreaming?
It would be interesting to see how many G's you can pull for different body positions. I'm also thinking about how body position changes the conditions of sliding the bike.
As an exercise, try turning the bike through a corner while leaving it as straight up and down as you can. The only way to achieve this is to get off of the bike more. You literally push the bike away from you. In your front facing shots (shot by the rear camera) - you are going with the bike as it leans over with little body adjustment. If you want to reduce lean angle and increase speed - move your body off and leave the bike where it is - you will be able to go faster. I recommend doing my experiment on a mini road racer or mini supermoto. The effects will be more pronounced but directly transferable to larger bikes.
Hang off as much as you want without providing any steering input, it will do almost nothing. The only real way to turn a motorcycle is to put steering input in. We've known this forever, whatever you're taking about is in your head or you are providing input as you hang off.
Listen to Cody.
Someday you must experience the "no-body steer" bike at the california superbike school. you will realize it has no effect and you've been countersteering this whole time.
So i haven't seen a legit comment yet but the real science of leaning off is to create more force on the rear suspension for grip. This helps exiting corners because obviously the more grip out of the corner the better. This also helps with the balance of the motorcycle. The more your synchronized with your bike the stable/faster you can be. Stay Safe!!!
Going from my experience on mountain bikes you might feel more confident hanging off because you've crashed so you're more knowledgeable of how far your bike can go.
I've only recently got my first motorbike and I'm still trying to work on my cornering confidence but on my mountain bike I'll take any corner at any speed without a second thought because I know exactly how far I can push it before I crash (again).
Leaning in corners makes the throttling out feel "better". I wonder how the lean and slightly different center of mass affects suspension. Or maybe it just makes you pay more attention as you are forced to commit to your line and just control the throttle and your own position.
So I'd suggest everyone to learn it, if not for else than keeping you busy and distracted while your bike does the balancing and maintaining angle and grip, preferably with minimal and only the simplest possible contribution from the clumsy human on top of it.
didn't understand a thing, but it was fun to watch :)
Please appreciate how he pronounces "Husqvarna"
Hoo Hoo :D
Lol "hooscona"
pronounce? you meant mutilate?
inb4 sry for bad englando, not my first language
I'll take a wild guess. Neither is swedish?
Kanske ska börja säga 'husis' istället. Så alla engelsktalande blir ännu mer förvirrade. =D
This is great content Mike, although I don't race at all, I really enjoyed the nerdy aspect of it ;)
My 2 cents (as a fellow racer, and as a biomechanical therapist), I think you are missing out some important factors that make this equation much more complex.
These would be...
- The mass of the rider and the motorcycle are not one structure, they have a dynamic relationship, specifically how the centrifugal force from the riders mass , is transmitted through his point of contact with the bike.
Ever tried to ride fast with a slippery seat?
The corner forces dont want to generate torque on the rider in the same way as its acts on the rigid mass of the bike with grippy tyres at its tip.
The rider is thrown laterally, almost as a shearing force across the top of the bike.
Now the more you hang off the more that lateral force is 'deflected' into downwards force, through the angle of the bike (as opposed to thrown over the top of it). Therefore pushing the tyres into the ground, and allowing the suspension to control the mass, and not adding the the shearing force the tyres are fighting to maintain traction.
This effect would obviously be exaggerated at greater velocities, and at very slow velocities would indeed work against you, ie potenially washing out the front, which matches your comments on the SM. Because in this advantage only comes into play once the lateral force is great than the downwards force. Gravity.
Also
- The act of hanging off into a turn brings the 'lever' of you body not just 'out' but 'forward'. Compressing the front suspension and changing the geometry of the bike, helping it turn.
Also
- (This could be anecdotal) , I find this front bias allows more 'feel' at the front. Which obviously allows one to push closer to the limit of grip even of that limit were not any different.
Just my theory. I could be talking BS :D
PS love the RS250 !
Nice video!!! Thank you... There is always something to learn! Very true :)
You don't need to be down to knee dragging hang off, but many bikes (Harley cough, cough) have limited lean angles and hitting hard parts on a mountain switchback can put you into the weeds. My BMW K1200RS occasionally hits the peg scrapers and a little hang off can avoid that.
My mind blows too, thank you so much for the lean course 💪👍
I would say hanging-off makes you+bike objectively more stable, i.e. less prone to tipping over, hence the higher confidence.
Those extra few degrees are a safety margin you can give yourself by leaning, and the knee an indicator
Wooow. You put some serious time and research into this video. Well done
Another great Vid Mike! I teach that old saying.........slow in, fast out in my MC classes. I also say.........fast in, you don't come out, lol
ah... that would be fast in, last out... or more right... too fast in, last out... excluding block passes tactics
I hug and lean with the bike. Never had any issues and i lean further than my wheelie stunt rider friends
I always understood that hanging off was as much to use the knee as a lean angle gauge as to reduce the lean angle. I guess everyone has a theory, it's always interesting to see the real numbers though.
Mount your bike. Have someone keep you upright.
Lean out your body to one direction, lean out the bike in the opposite direction.
As if you were cornering, only motionless.
There's your CoM
nice work ...you put a lot of effort into this one.. good information
Thanks a lot!
👍you are most welcome
Could it be that reducing lean angle is not necessarily about increasing cornering speed or grip, but it also has an effect on time to turn in and time it takes to pick the bike pack up to drive out with maximal power. Less time leaned over means less time to get the bike straight and go full throttle.
Yeah, Mike 'the bike' Hailwood never hung off. Didn't seem to slow him down. 😅👍. Great video.
Also you can pick up the bike and accelerate out faster if you hanging out off the bike.
My brothers teased me when I was younger by calling me Michael Michael Motorcycle. Now I'm the only one of us brothers with motorcycles so I got the last laugh. Thanks for breaking down the physics for us Mike on Bikes!
The way you hang off makes a big difference. You can move your backside off and leave your shoulders inline with the centre of the bike. You can leave your backside in place and shift your shoulders (good for road riding) or do both like GP riders do. They also move as far forward as possible to keep weight on the front tyre. With wide bars like your Motard you are not going to be able to hang off very far so cannot compare to a bike with clip-on bars. On a GP bike when your tyres are on the limit hanging off makes the difference between crashing and keep racing.
This. Hanging off butt and shoulders gets your weight so far forward. It feels like you're draping our body over the front wheel; that's what I feel like I'm trying to do. My helmet up under the mirror on a street legal bike. I found this feels "right" in tight and extended curves like switchbacks, in the 30-40 mph range, where you need to use more maintenance throttle through the curve (vs shorter curves which are mostly coasting/trailbraking before hitting a distinct apex). Getting your weight to the front feels like the more important aspect. in this context.
Followup vid could investigeate the front:rear weight shift potential.
But at very low speed hair pins, I prefer to keep my body straight up (like dirt biking). Better view, and better able to recover a rear slide. If you're hanging off on the super low speed hair pins, you'll tip over quicker if your rear breaks loose. If you're body is up, you have some ballast, keeping your upper body in place while the bike slides out beneath you. I'm pretty sure GP riders do this too, on courses with the super slow hair pins.
Different leans for different corners!
I'm excited! Thanks for this awesome video. Just perfectly supports my current quarantine plans. 🤗
🤔 Has the contact area of the tires been taken into account for the different inclination angles? I drive the Michelin Pilot Power 2CT.More inclination means more contact area. There are data sheets from the manufacturer. The fact is, on the gsxr Hangout feels right. Successful description on your part👍
Indeed tires have many different profiles. I was not able to figure out a way to account for the tires profile in my equations for the torque around the CoG.
One could speculate that race tires have an optimum contact patch, located at some given lean angle.
Riding a scooter I find hanging off has a big effect, probably because the bike is light, had low centre of gravity and has a big danger of grounding out. Interested what others think about this.
Hanging off the bike helps to keep the motorcycle leaning on the side, since the motorcycle have the tendency to stand up strait.
Because you're not on the very edge of traction, you're simply doing the same 'comfortable' speed regardless of style. Lowsides especially, happen when the lean angle is excessive and hanging off allows that angle to occur at higher speeds.
hey Mike thanks a lot for made this videos, are really useful mate.
Cool video!! Soooooooooooo, you don't *need* to hang off until you're are the maximum lean angle that the tyres will support. E.g. no point hanging off at 40 degrees if you could just lean 45 degrees. I guess when MotoGP riders get to the limit they can lean the bike, they hang off to reduce the cornering radius for that speed.
I felt like a hammer-thrower first time I tried leaning, very empowering/enthralling/enaddictive feeling
I was hitting my foot pegs on a big 200kg adventure bike with offroad tyres on my first track day, everyone kept telling me how it isn't a good bike for turning and the tyres aren't ideal for roads etc. But once I started hanging off, I felt like I was on a sport bike, you just have to feel and understand the way the bike is moving and picture yourself almost stationary on the corner while throwing the bike around you, your head being in the centre. I never felt so alive, probably got close to breaking my foot a few times though
why is 5 degrees not significant?
Finally a youtube video where Huskqvarna was pronounced correctly. can't think of why :-D greetings from Denmark ;-)
Center of gravity at your belly button assumes you are standing straight up. If you bend over at the waist, you just lowered the center of gravity. While there are incremental improvements that can be made by moving inward, the BULK of the improvement (or reduction in lean angle) is just from being bent over instead of straight up and down. The goal is getting the center of gravity LOWER. Leaning to the inside helps you get even lower on the bike....to a point. Your outside knee and your hips can only get so far. So if you're a MotoGP rider trying to eek out every last hundredth of a second on every corner..... Drop your upper body lower and to the inside. Pay close attention to how Marquez's body is laid out, he's trying to get as much of his entire upper body mass lower on the chassis. You can't put your chest through the tank, so the only way to get that mass lower is to also get more to the inside. Some older generation MotoGP riders used to even get their butt down on the side (almost twisting sideways on the seat).
2020 coronavirus quarantine! Awesome!
Everyone keeps saying to hang off, but never really explained why.
the more lean the bike has the more cornering force you gain per degree, the equation is exponential, however, the degrees you gain from body position remain the same regardless of your lean angle, this equation is linear, so in high lean angles body position becomes much much more important, hence why we see marc do the crazy stuff and why you should not have to hang as much in your street riding, it won't benefit you as much
just speculation here, in a hanging off position
1. any angle other than upright in a hanging off position would lower the CG
2. the air resistance on the rider's body (though very less) can also create an effect similar to a paddle on one side of a boat to turn
3. the combine mass is inside of the line (shorter radius), hence ballet dancer spinning effect
so does this mean with the same speed as a foot off into a corner, the hanging off position can have better traction?
It would be interesting how the software you used arrived at the lean angle as determining it using a gyro on a motorcycle is not entirely trivial. Some software derives it using atan(lateral acceleration in g) (which assumes the bike+rider form a disc). It's also what I do in my little go pro lap timer (for now). Anyways, nice to see a bit of moto content during this time.
You make a very good point. I started comparing numbers between my Aim Solo and the data extracted from the GoPro. They provide slightly different numbers for lean angles.
I will look further into this. Thank you!
The correct answer to the question is yes leaning in absolutely reduces the bike lean angle in a turn given all other things are equal. Lean angle is directly related to the center of gravity over the line of travel versus the lateral G force that is generated by how sharp the turn is and the velocity at the turn radius. The phenomena of reduced lean angle is very easily demonstrated. Simply travel in a straight line and lean off to one side of the bike. To remain traveling in a straight line you will naturally need to lean the bike in the opposite direction no counteract your body position. The amount of counteracting bike lean is directly proportional to how much weight and how far you can move it from the center line. This gives an indication of how much leaning of the center line reduces the lean angle of the bike when traveling at the same speed and turning at the same radius.
Lateral G force is mathematically determined by velocity squared divided by the radius. This equation illustrates the effect of speed and turn on lateral G force. The force the bike must lean to counter turning is the lateral G force vs gravity to maintain balance A very simplified example would be that if a bike were pulling 1 G with the rider in a static position in a turn it would need to lean 45 degrees to split the turning centrifugal forge vs gravity. This is of course ignoring other factor such as the contact patch moving around the curved motorcycle tire and other like factors. If the bike were turning the same radius at a lower speed sufficient to generate ½ one G the simplified lean angle would be 22.5 degrees.
As you noticed in your testing you seemed comfortable leaning to a consistent lean angle during the high speed turns on the track regardless of the lean position vs the motor cross upright position used. As you noticed the lean angle was dependent on the speed vs the turn radius or line of the turn as you called it. You also notice that the speed was higher when leaning in at the same bike lean angle which perfectly demonstrates that leaning in moved the center of gravity. Normally leaning in would mean less lean angle is needed to balance the lateral force however you still felt comfortable leaning more which allowed you to trade the reduced lean angle for more speed and therefore faster time. It also appears from you statements you are comfortable at a much greater lean angle in the slow sharp turns in the motocross position. Because of the increased comfort level to lean more you are able to carry more speed through those turns.
Yeh.
I think it actually gets a bit more complicated. Some turns reward a later sharper initial turn and getting on the throttle earlier, while some turns won't reward much with a fast exit, so gaining time is done on the brakes and trail braking into the turn more. Hanging off can impact how quickly you can get a turn initiated by already being in position. While hanging off, you're also often letting your own body act as a portion of the suspension, and can allow the bike to better react to bumps in mid corner. Also, I've had times where I was hanging off, knee on the ground, and started losing either the front or back. Because my arms and legs could let the bike move, I was able to correct my inputs and save it. If I was sitting neutral on the seat, the bike would've thrown me enough that I wouldn't be able to react or would be causing unintentional inputs.
That said, on a supermoto, I agree with using the mix of styles, and using whatever works for each corner. I think the most fun I've ever had going into a turn was coming out of a glancing right hand turn in top gear, throttle pinned, and then braking so hard going into a sharp left that I was sticking my left leg out as far as I could just to have weight out to the side to help pull the bike over while I was only making contact with the front tire. Granted, that's also how I got experience lowsiding by braking too far into the corner, and also how I subsequently started learning how to counter a front end slide mid turn.
My data does not support the claim that hanging off impacts how quickly you can get a turn initiated. In fact, looking at the data, in the turns where I hang off, my lean angle variation over time is slower both on turn in and on exit.
How does your body act as a portion of the suspension when hanging off?
When standing up on a dirt bike, your legs become “part of the suspension”. But when hanging off, you are not standing on the pegs with the rest of your body disconnected from the bike.
To get a stable body position most racers push their outside knee into the tank. This is also why tanks on sport bikes are formed in the way that they are.
@@MikeonBikes That's interesting with the data. No implications there. I haven't analyzed data for that, just figuring that since the bike wants to fall into the corner when leaning off, it would be easier. Guess that's why data acquisition is beneficial. Maybe I'm just tall, or tend to lean off too much, but even when I have my outer leg locked against the tank, I am supporting a lot of my weight on my legs. When I've had the rear tire step out, my legs just extended as the bike pushed away from me.
@@chipmunkshavenuts it definitely feels like bikes fall into a corners faster when pre-hanging, but dont forget, when we do that pre-hanging we have to apply steering angle to keep moving in the intended line, letting go of this opposite steering torque is what makes that reaction to fall feel so fast.
good work your obviously an Engineer. I think this is first year University Physics. Its a shame that at Uni everything is almost purposely overcomplicated.
All you say is true however for given line and speed hanging off will reduce the lean angle....assuming of course you can be consistent in line and speed...
I keep my weight on top of the bike and on the outside peg with my inside foot forward below 25-30MPH or so, and kiss the mirror with my inside knee pointing where I want to go above that
Cool math....the missing part is nature....like when I train people to shoot...using your defensive mechanism. Leaning off the bike is way more aggressive. Simply standing shooting isnt like when you get in an aggressive stance to shoot
There are different riding styles, point and shoot style doesn't require hanging off or extreme lean angle. You can ask Casey stoner about it. You only hang off just to prevent the bike from flipping over due centrifugal force. With more lean angle you need less to hang off and for that you can ask Jorge lorenzo.
And BTW motorcycles only mimic the dynamics of airplanes only not completely. Some bikes are designed to be naturally stable, some bikes are design to be naturally unstable. And by unstable I mean to input and to leveling.
Yeh.
This completely makes sense if we compare riding styles. J Rea hangs off far less compared to Marquez or Chaz Davies and is still fast as hell
you had me at "do it" 😂😂🖒🙏 much blessings to you and your family.
Yeah, and getting your balls out of the danger zone when breaking is always a good thing.
DANGER ZONE
Interesting experiment but would the results differ if it was a pure sports bike oppose to a supermoto that has a natural upright positioning?
You are the best Mike. Thanks.
You should just explain a bit why reducing the lean angle is allowing for faster speeds in corners. After all a formula 1 is not leaning at all, but still has a limited cornering speed...
i raised the same remark, i don't get what is the benefit of a reduced lean angle since the lateral force and the contact patch remain the same whether we are at 30° or 35° of lean angle.