Avoid this COMMON throttle control mistake
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- Опубликовано: 6 авг 2024
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Losing rear end traction is how a lot of learning track riders end up crashing. In this video we look into a common cause of crashes which results in a loss of traction at the rear end. I call it the Throttle & Lean trap.
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My track instructor covered this in about 10 seconds. “You can add throttle, or you can add lean angle, but not both.”
RoadRunner I almost always add both without issue. At high speeds too.. you just gotta know how to do it.
My Sex Life
@@jsallerson Yeah this is why you're racing motogp huh? Fucking tool.
@@jsallerson in the video it is mentioned you can do throttle at slight lean but is dangerous when adding a lot of lean and throttling, but it's up to you man.
Be smooth on the throttle🧐?
Gearing changing with lean.... wow in 25 years of riding I never thought of that. Thanks
same here 22 years of riding
Learn something new every day XD
You don't hear it in fast esses? Holding steady throttle and pitching the bike hard through transition its very audible. Rpm drops as the bike comes upright then rises as you go back to full lean the other way. More obvious on a middleweight that is running higher rpm and that you can really muscle hard in transition.
Jojo West yes but never thought about it, need to be careful on my 1098....
Right?? Lol about 10 here.
Jojo West yeah i used to do it sometimes on my GSXR400, coz itd fall into a bit of a 'revving too hard for this transition but bike can go faster thru the next bit' sometimes. So click, next gear as ya roll vertical but before the tip in, then a steady throttle, calmed the bike down some too.
Hadda do some tricks to stay with the 750s
I can't believe I never thought of the effective change in "gearing" as you lean the bike over and lower the tire diameter. Interesting.
You'll also sometimes notice on videos on people doing top speed runs, the speedo will read noticeably higher as soon as they start cornering. You can tell especially when the bike cant quite hit that 299 but then as soon as they lean into a long bend they suddenly hit the 299
I learned this principal from another channel as it was explained motoGP racers will short shift into a turn to account for this phenomenon
It also slows you down heaps so you can actually enter a corner a bit quicker than what feels right
Learned that from playing Ride 4
That was my biggest takeaway from this video. I felt kind of dumb for not thinking about it before watching the video lol
😐...it’s after learning stuff like this, that I often wonder how I’m still alive. I’ll admit I do this exact mistake A LOT (daily rider for seven years)
I don’t understand why people would give thumbs down? It’s free content & a lot of time would go into making these videos. I say... thank you! I’m sure many riders out there take your advice on board and gain time as a result. Great advice, please keep em coming
probably watching drunk and accidentally missed the thumbs up button Lmao
Because they love motorcycle yet they cant afford to have one. Its their frustration😂
@@eternalsunshine1651 i managed to hit the correct one 🤣
Bored 10 year olds who click hate on everything.
Probably a misclick from bad arm nerves from a bike crash
Even though I watched all the videos twice, I just fell into this exact trap a week ago, while trying to keep up with the rider in front of me. Ended up in a big high side :(
Therefore this video helps me to understand what happened as it all happened so fast !
I believe the rider on the Panigale, last video, was "saved" from loosing the rear by the bike's DTC (traction control) was engaged as you can tell by the amber light.
Nice observation!
My S1000R saves me from a high speed high side when a wet spot on a searingly hot otherwise dry track plus my poor technique adding lean while rolling in the throttle (added lean to avoid the wet patch I ended up hitting...) - brilliant DSC. my instructor was watching from a few bike lengths back...lesson learned
what u said is not 100% true but still the TC helped him, still this one is a professional rider, there is two kind of lines, the one that the editor was drawing and it's a U line, and there's a V line, for professionals, they keep braking in the corner to bring speed into the mid corner then lean to the maximum, then they can exit the corner with almost full throttle because the bike is straight..
This is exactly what happened to me in a double or late apex right handed turn I pushed for more lean angle and got on the gas too soon...the rear stepped out on me and slammed me like a high side....for month I thought it was cold tires, but this explanation makes perfect sense. I also validated this with a racing instructor as well. Thank you for all the work you do in sharing your passion!
20 years ago at Cadwell Park I had a highside that left me in hospital for a week, it was a biggy. (I remember it like it was yesterday.) I have never really understood why it happened as no one else had a problem around me, but looking back I feel this is the best explanation I can find.. Increasing throttle whilst exiting Charlies, in an effort to get onto the straight, whilst giving it a bit more lean to make the apex.
This is how I high-sided this season in the rain. I had just passed my rival and wanted to run away as quickly as possible. I was actually trying to go last to first. Lap 4, just made the pass for third from 8th on the grid into a significantly banked, fairly tight left-hander. Went in pretty deep, just got the brakes fully released at the apex and went to pick the bike up and start rolling on. Got a bit ahead of myself and got jumpy on the throttle before managing to pick the bike up at all.
Rear snapped sideways, and before I realized what was going on, the throttle was closed and I was looking at the front of my bike from an angle I have never seen before, upside-down.
Shattered my hip, 3 screws. Out the rest of the season. Oh and this was on Father's Day. Sorry, dad.
I feel your pain. we both got 'screwed' on the throttle
What an epic tale thou
@@adaptiveagile 100% healed. I never even notice it. If you ever need emergency trauma surgery, make sure you're in Concord, NH when Dr. Duffy is on shift. The man is a wizard. And he even brought out X-Rays to my family before stitching me up to show them his work and get approval to close.
What did you have on as far as armor (race suit of course)? I know it's hard to protect the lower body, but did you change anything after - like add hip armor/padding, etc.
@@theMightywooosh RS Taichi suit with stock armor. Upgraded hip and back armor since.
Dude...I'm 32. Been sportbiking for 10 years, and rode dirt bikes and quads in my youth. You keep schooling the old man! Incredible info! Making more than a few of your subs better riders, indeed! 🤙🏍️
Did my first track day today, crashed, and this is what happened. Didn't know/understand what it was till I watched this video. Thanks for the helpful tips!! Subscribed
Been riding since 1971, never had one down in a curve, but then again, never raced, just rode in the snow, rain, and ice a lot. At night a lot too in those conditions. Just wanted to get to work/home in one piece. Still riding at 62, too much fun.
Mike Sokolow same here. Stay safe!
At almost 30, I just can’t see myself ever giving up riding.
Respect man!
@@MaggotZee I read a post on another video and the guy is 76. I see a lot of us old guys still on sport bikes but I don't think any are that age.
I hope I make it and still go riding a sport bike/sport touring.
As a car racer this is absolutely second nature to do this trick (almost mandated if you have ever raced FWD cars!) and you think automatically about doing it for bikes as you say. You're absolutely right about the RPM difference. This was something I knew about but never gave it a thought as to a contributing factor to a rear slide (which I have had on track too).
A very useful video and much appreciated :)
I learned this lean/torque lesson last week, but I was slowly rolling the throttle, felt the the slip and rolled back easy so I stayed up. The next 20 minutes after I was riding like it was MSF day 1.
You hit the nail on the head. I would say this is the most common reason for a trackday crash.
At race school, I taught via a simple analogy: Imagine you're approaching a 90deg corner in your Porsche track car. You'd apply some steering input to turn in and then release the steering input from the apex (or slightly before) in combination with the application of throttle. Everyone knows instinctively what happens if you get on the gas in the Porsche without releasing steering input but what they miss is that steering input in a car equates to lean angle on a bike. Make sure you're starting to lift the bike (however incrementally) as you get on the gas and then the bike will naturally counter steer in the event of a tail slide. If you want to slide the tail, make sure that you're 'on the up' as you get on the gas!
Thanks! I have seen videos of these kinds of rear traction low-sides before. Where the bike goes down instantly, spinning like a pinwheel in the direction of the turn. But I didn't know why/how this happened vs the "normal" slide +- high side.
Great video. This happened to me earlier this year. I simultaneously increased throttle and lean angle and lost the rear. It was my first time trying race slicks and the extra abundant grip masked my mistake until it was too late.
Thank you for these tips man!! Next season i'll watchout for this mistake which can happen!!
You are saving so much trackriders with your information!!
take care, cheers
This is a must watch video for every rider! I have never seen this issue explained as clearly anywhere else.
Thanks Dan. I've had one track day during a course at Shannonville Ontario and fortunately I did not experience this, but the guy in front of me did. I had a front row seat to see it live, without the bonus of sliding on asphalt. Thanks for the tip, I'll keep this in mind for my next course this coming Spring.
Thank you... I had a lowside because of this. I've been wracking my brain thinking why I lost my rear. I lost faith in myself and ride less these few weeks. Thank you for the tip
Just something i have noticed when doing track days and this issue. it can happen because you have gone into the corner too slow. When you go in too slow you then try and adjust by using the throttle at higher lean angles. if you go in quicker you are less likely to go onto the throttle mid corner. i know i have done this quite a few times but just lucky to have got away with it. Now working on getting that corner entry speed.
Excellent presentation, mate! I’m a fairly new rider and this helped to raise my level of awareness up another notch. I watch lots of crash/close call videos to learn from and always wondered why guys who have seemed to set up a corner properly suddenly have the bike just slide out from underneath them. Your explanation for this was perfect. Thank you so much-Merry Christmas!
As an aspiring track day rider, I love watching and learning from your videos. Thanks for sharing your knowledge, I'm sure they will come in handy next month when I go for my first track day.
Well done, lad. Good advice. It's amazing how many riders in general have no idea about throttle control through corners. SIGHT IT, BRAKE IT, TURN IT, CRACK IT BACK ON ...SMOOTHLY!
Excellent information! I made this mistake while tightening my exit line. A slight input and down I went.
same here
@Carbon Fiber Weiner well...不想再犯同樣的錯..
Great video. 👍
I hope you were ok. I guess some throttle input when "at lean" is ok but it all depends on the lean angle?! The more lean angle the less throttle input we should have. That was my understanding. Please correct me if I'm wrong so I can learn. Thank you,.
Glad I came across your channel - superb content! Thank you very much!
Track days are valuable in many ways. This is just one step in learning to ride fast and be in control.
I saw a few mishaps in Utah on Parleys and Big Cottonwood Canyon. Riding too fast for conditions and no track experience.
I'm not condoning riding fast on the street but if you do, you should know what you're doing.
Excellent video.
I think about this when I’m riding and I’m definitely guilty of it, but after seeing that bike slide out that easy... idk I gotta be extra careful, it could save my life. I’ve got an 07 r6 with a set of pirelli Diablo rosso 3’s and I’m very happy with them. I don’t ride track, maybe some day I’d like to try it. I highly recommend those tires though, they’re really good in the rain too.
nice bike :)
The corner you mention is famous on YT for crashes. Mullholland drive. Lots of cameras waiting for another rider to high or lowside.It must have a lot of dirt on this road.
Wow, great thing to be more aware of on the street. I started riding on the dirt and it's very obvious and it's something you learn to play with off road. I just realized I have been doing it a lot on the street( I ride an old 600 bandit an the power is forgiving) I am definitely be aware because losing traction at higher speeds on the street is whole different situation. Thanks for the refresher.
This is just brilliant info! Didn't know it before. Thanks!
Great video mate. Thanks for posting, I feel like there are corners that I definitely struggle with this
This is so recognisable, had a few lowsiders and already evolved from blaming the surface and the tyres to blaming my throttle control and these videos confirm what I found logic. In the past i might have misinterpreted the twist of the wrist-philosphy and combined my steering input(or midcorner adjustment) while rolling off the throttle (this was a few years ago before I was aware of the trial braking , wich makes a lot more sense, based on the grip=weight(gravity and other) principle). Learned to go faster by being slower(smoother) on the throttle. Your approach helps a lot in evolving, as it is clear, logical, agrees with laws of physics and common sense.
I done a few tutoring courses by Max Coates, David Pittard and Declan Jones in a rwd Ginetta before catching my buzz for bikes. Bought an r6, absolutely loved it so decided to buy a track spec R1 having never done a trackday and went straight for my Acu test. Obviously cars and bikes are different but used exactly the same technique I got taught and it was such a buzz and got my stamp to send away for my licence in January 2020. There is nothing more exciting than exiting a corner to pull on the throttle and feel the front lift. Got so much to learn and looking forward to it. It's a weird feeling trusting 2 tyres as opposed to 4 on a bike with over 800bhp power to weight 😂
Great contant, good explanation. Glad you were able to figure out what made you crash. Analysing everything you did certainly makes you a better rider. Maybe that's why when things go wrong in your mind things replay over and over again from adrenaline I guess. A natural response to preventing mistakes and learning about yourself.
Excellent video as usual. I was taught that if I wanted to tighten the corner to decrease throttle, though tightening a corner and adding lean angle don’t always equal the same thing
These videos are pure Gold!!!! Thank You!
I wrecked like this coming into a corner at 120...I leaned with a closed throttle and as soon as I leaned harder I lost traction. After losing traction I fish tailed twice and then high sided. This makes total sense what I felt and what happened in the crash.
Such a great pointer, thanks!
Nice video! Thanks for sharing this common problem.
I've experienced this!! I had too high of an entry speed on tight corner, was concerned about crossing the double yellow so I increased lean to try to compensate. I felt myself lose traction but my tires saved me and I regained it. Somehow made it through the corner. I'd like to think that I'm much more cautious about entry speed now, I hadn't considered what you've discussed., Thanks!
Great tips brother! Awesome vid as always!cheers mate!
Excellent tip! Thank you.
This exact thing happened to me exiting Druids. Great video to watch three days before my next track day. Thanks a lot!
Great one again! Thanks
Great informative and easily understood video! Thanks!
Excellent video! Subbed!
Thanks for this informative vid. New to biking and first trackday is in a month. Definite will take this info on board
Thanks a Bunch ✨👍🏾 this has been happening to me when I take off from a light turning at large intersections. I just put it down to the OEM tires being garbage. But after understanding what you have explained, I understand it better. I got a Z900 non-traction control a couple months ago, but I am coming from a ZX10R so I was thinking that the power was not the issue. But as it turns out, the Z 900 makes more torque at the part of the rev range I am using in that situation. So when I lean, it increases more as I am increasing the throttle while tightening the turn. I just ordered new tires, but I will have to come up with a new strategy for exiting an intersection quickly when turning.✨✨
Very important video. Most informative one I have seen in a while.
On a 1976 cb750 I took a high side from leaning first and then hard throttle pulling out of a gas station on to a main road. At about 25 - 30 mphs the rear tire cut loose and I fishtailed. I thought it was due to loose gravel or cold tires. I couldn't save it and I was thrown about 20 feet over the bike and cartwheeled 5 times hitting the back of my head 3 times and my face twice. I "walked" more like hobbled away with minor injuries. The only gear I had on were my boots gloves and helmet. My fullface helmet saved my life. I was so glad I always fasten the chin strap or my helmet would have flown off after the first impact. Lesson learned to say the least and I have been educating myself everyday to become a better rider and seeking professional instruction and preparing my ride with more gear. Thanku for this video. Never understood the different ratio on the tire. Always thought the tire ratio from center to side was the same. It makes perfect sense now but I was unaware of the dramatic difference in power. My improper technique and poor decision making nearly ended in my death. #alwayswearyourhelmet
Wow, learned something new today. I know for a fact that I've made that mistake before. Heck I made it today on an on-ramp. The turn got gradually tighter so instead of me just slowing down I leaned more and used the throttle to help steer/control lean angle. Yikes, won't be doing that again. Thank you so much for this!
I don't know but sometimes this happens to me, I feel a bit of traction loss when I lean just a little bit and apply a fast throttle just entering a corner. So now with your video I'm gonna try to avoid applying throttle as I lean more. Hope this helps. Driving a RC200 with stock tires. Watching from the Philippines. Great Tip. I don't do track cuz we don't have a track in my area. But I'm gonna apply these in my street riding.
Thank you for your videos! Helps me a lot
Thanks man. Really appreciate it
On my first track day after the California Superbike School's quick turn drill, I attempted to employ the quick turn while getting on the throttle at the same time and down I went.
How good are quick turns when you get them right though 😂 just did CSS yesterday!
Sorry to here that. It can be a risky way of riding if you don't get the timing right.
CSS have gone bust in the uk just last month . Sad times.
My CSS coach pulled me over to have a chat with me when he saw me adding both throttle and lean at turn 9 (the bowl) at the Streets of Willow Springs. It's a long right-hand sweeper where there's a tendency to get on the throttle for exit as it slightly pinches in and you also want to hold your inner line. The very friendly warning/scolding served its purpose. I put more emphasis on throttle control discipline.
Sorry to hear about the demise of CSS UK. The combination of a secular decline in motorcycling along with more competition from a better-weather continent seems to be the problem. Is that about right?
@@r217evl no way!!! they are quite expensive, maybe people just aren't forking the cash out anymore?
I just experienced a traction loss that resulted in high siding the bike. A 4x4 that cut me off on a turn was the contributing factor . Might have I saved it with better throttle application ? hindsight is always 20-20 BUT this video made me aware of the dynamics . Thank you and keep up the good work !
Great video!
Recently on a track day I ran wide on the last corner at Broadford Au. I touched my back wheel in the dirt and high sided. I’d done everything exactly the same as the rest of the day but I was getting cocky and was heaping on the throttle. Thanks for explaining where I went wrong. I can’t wait to get out there again.
Excellent video that can also be used to highlight the advantage of having a bike with traction control, even more so if it has an IMU. At the end of the video you can see the Ducati Panigale's TC indicator light turn on exactly at the point of throttle and lean, had the TC been turned off or maybe even adjusted to be less sensitive, that may have resulted in a crash. The other bikes in the video I assume have either no TC or a wheel speed sensor TC system which would explain how easy it was for the bikes to slide out. Cheers!
The best mc track day vids on the web. Thanks.
Thanks for sharing this one bro.
Nice tip, I didn't actually realize the tire diameter shrinking but it makes perfect sense. I think I can even add that to my little gopro lap analyser software so it will automatically highlight and complain about it. :)
Dani Pedrosa is an absolute expert at corner exit. He picks up the bike and shoots the bike out of corners like no one else.
Very informative and not to technical. Excellent video thank you.
Great video - I've been riding over a decade, never been on a trackday, but your explanation was great. Subbed.
Welcome!
One of the only video's on RUclips with no thumbs down. You should get a reward for that. I alway enjoy your video's and they helped me out a lot!
I think You resulted in more than He deserves
thanx a lot for this video! It helped me to explain one of my last season crashes. I thought it happend because of adding more lean angle, but after watcing this video and rethinking the situation, I understood, that i did exactly what You said ) once again thank You very much P.S. respect and kind regards from Russia :)
Great video. Definitely something I’m going to keep in mind. I think power of bike plays a large role too on how much you can get away with.
I used to do this. It wasn’t until I saw a video on how brake pressure should be inversely proportional to lean angle on entry that I realized the same is true for throttle on exit. Nice vid.
wow you are slap full of info! amazing
Always been worried about where that limit was, great explanation, thank you!
You really have added value to my motorcycling education. Thank you.
Great video! This has happened to me more than once.
Great video, especially the point about the radius of the tire at lean. I was surprised you didn't mention the traction circle though.
The more you lean over the less available traction for acceleration or braking.
Ride safe kids.
P.S. Learn to ride on a dirt bike. It will teach you how to manage front and rear wheel traction.
Track day in rain helped me. Thank you for the upload.
Great advice. This recently happened to me. Think I may have been too keen on the throttle coming out of the 2nd corner of a chicane, on the 2nd lap.
The chicane was sat on a hill (crest, descending part).
Was running a '16 zx10r with stock rear shock, on Corsa IIs, no tyre warmers, weight 62kg, rear 30psi, weather appx 22°C, full power, TC at 3.
I had my first track experience at VIR North 2 weeks ago. Took the California Superbike School L1/L2... great experience. They identified this issue with my throttle control in the afternoon of day 1 as I fought with Turn 4a (tight left hand late apex that transitions into 4b right). The corner was tight so I'd not carry enough speed in... then I'd make a mid corner corrections as I figured out the line WHILE applying throttle because I was too slow. I spent the entire rest of the class working on it... throttle discipline was what eventually helped me start to break the habit (and carrying more speed into 4... but even if I was too slow I had to get used to not trying to correct before the bike was on line).
Can definitely recommend CSS for anyone hoping to improve their bike handling skills - the amount of direct coaching you receive gives you an immediate task list of bad habits to break and the classroom sessions give you a number of good habits to replace them with.
Funny, I had a crash at the end of this season. It's a double apex right hand corner, kind of like two 90 degree corners that you take in a sweep. The rear spun out from me at the second apex. Instructors that were behind me told me I probably just applied throttle a bit too harsh, but from memory I really feel like I didn't apply that much, and thinking back, I definately did apply some lean to tighten up at the same time, because I spotted my exit... Learnt something new that day, and even more after watching this clip! Thanks!
Had the exact same experience on track. Couldn't find a clear answer untill now.
I never thought of this. Great video.
Thanks for the lesson
CSS coach called me out for exactly this in my level 2 class last weekend. As the pace gets faster the margins for getting away with it start to diminish. It's apparently a bad habit I've developed in many years of riding.
Amazing Content!
Cool video!
Your explanations are great. As a result the science behind riding has become very interesting. I tip my hat for the inspiration ;)
Watching this video now I know what caused my wreck. Love your videos. Extremely educational
I don't even have my bike licence yet, but I'm hoping to get it in the next few weeks. Once I am confident enough I want to try a track day (with an instructor), so it's good to know about this well ahead of time!
Another great video!
Thanks for this video!!! this happened to me - I had convinced myself it was some oil or black ice, but I was perhaps to eager to get home. Thumbs UP
Very good pointer in this video.
A CSS instructor caught me doing this in a corner with a double-apex where I started to throttle up on exit after the first but then pinched it in a bit while on throttle in the second. He pulled me off the track immediately and gave me the lecture.
I asked why advanced traction control systems didn't intervene in these instances to prevent crashes. He said that BMW (they use the S1000RR) explained that traction control does pretty well reacting to one type of bad input, but two is beyond its abilities. There are real-world scenarios where the TC would react in error here.
Very informative at beneficial video....thank you!
Well done Sir....
I've experienced this once when riding on a rainy day. I started to add throttle in the middle of a turn and rear tires started to slip off of the road. Gained wounds and bruises afterwards..
hezekiah dayson ,Jesus! I bet that’s never happened before!
This is one of your best videos.
It answered and touched things I had been thinking about.
One question I have is how pressure are you applying on the handlebars to counter steer throughout the turn?
At what point is it the highest pressure, when is it the lowest, and how is it modulated in between?
How much pressure are you applying as you roll on the throttle?
Thanks for the videos.
How much pressure depends on how quickly I want to steer. However, once I'm in a corner and my lean angle is set, you can stop applying pressure.
Ongoing pressure through the turn depends on the bike, tires, and pressures.
So this is what happened to me last august to a T. Put it out to the local racers and no one could explain it. Thank you so much!
I made the same mistake on my first track day don’t want to make same mistakes again you’ve answered some of my questions thanks 🙏