What The Heck Rivian! Max Pack Is Super Lame, Especially For The Price | Episode 132
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2023
- Kyle and Skyler Williams from @RivianStories discuss the Max Pack for Rivian R1T and R1S. They dive into the specs of the battery, trade opinions on the value add of the battery, compare the Max Pack to the other battery packs from Rivian, and share their recommendations for folks who are looking to buy a Rivian.
Find us on all of these places:
RUclips: / outofspecpodcast
Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...
Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/0tKIQfK...
Amazon: music.amazon.com/podcasts/473...
For further inquiries please email podcast@outofspecstudios.com
#rivian #maxpack #dualmotor 
Авто/Мото
The biggest challenge for Rivian is not in making the truck more appealing, or increasing the range. The challenge is having the company become financially sustainable. I can see why they did this, and would also have understood if they canceled the max pack entirely.
Agreed 100%. The only way they're going to become financially sustainable is to make cars cheaper, not more expensive. They need to create their version of the Tesla Model Y and crank out/sell 2 million of those a year, year after year after year. Until they do that, the only reason why they're not bankrupt is because of their Amazon order and the Saudi money backing them.
No company produces 2 million cars a year of one model
their biggest issues are - 1- Engineering of the car for longevity (any bumps on your car is nearly a 30+k fix) - 2) the consistency and availability of quality services, 3) reliability of the vehicle and 4) transparency of communication (always have been a problem). IF you own a Rivian and you are in a group, you know about most of it, we have experience way to many let down to buy their next car/truck.
Having just completed a 7724 mile trip across the country and back I totally agree with your comments on range. We had a large pack Quad motor Luanch edition with all terrain tires. We never felt range anxiety. It was nice when we could charge overnight (although that was sometimes expensive). The biggest issue was the time to charge - for example when EA was de-rated to 50kWh charge speed which was quite common. It means the difference between a 20 minute stop and a 1 hour stop. But we did everything we wanted to do in 14 national parks without any issues.
When we got our R1T back in May the max range is 328 miles. With the recent software updates and at 100% it is 348…I am satisfied with our QUAD. Put it in All Purpose and pedal to the metal, it throws me back into our seats
Interesting!
And "throwing you back into your seats" is beneficial how? A 348 mile max range is ridiculous for many people.
@@jerrylundegaard2592I smell a hater
@@thomasjameson5761 Yeah, whomever this hater is is acting like range and performance are bad things LOL The two most important factors are negative in his upside-down world.
Range does matter off the major highways. My wife is headed to Winthrop WA for camping next weekend in R1S. It's 100 miles from the nearest DC charger. With side trips, sketchy CCS chargers, lowering temperatures, etc., 330 miles is borderline.
Rivian did exactly what they needed to do at this moment. The Max Pack wasn't the time to launch a brand new redesign of the infrastructure, that requires a considerable amount of time thought and testing. That is what the R2 is for. If people were thinking that MaxPack was an architectural redesign within the same vehicle architecture - that's kinda crazy. People just don't deploy products that way.
The disadvantage of charging LFP to 100% is the doubling of charging time compared to charging to only 80%. Not a problem if charging at home overnight, but undesirable during a road trip using public chargers.
The max pack is not a $10,000 upgrade. It is a $16,000 upgrade currently for new customers. If you pre-ordered it is actually $7,000 upgrade
The biggest win is the max pack as designed allows for a 400 mile R1S while also still accommodating a 400 mile R1T with the same pack. Given the demand for the R1S, being able to add that extra range to it is more valuable than making yet another pack for a larger capacity R1T max pack right now.
It seems like the Max Pack allows for faster road trip charging, since at each stop you would be charging to a lower SOC to get the same number of miles. For a simple example, imagine that you need to charge enough for 352 miles of range. That would require you to charge to 100% of the large pack (which would take a long time), but it would only require a charge of 86% of the Max Pack, which would take much less time because of the charging curve. Am I missing something?
That is my take as well. You would also expect less degradation if you're not discharging or charging as deep into the pack. 10-80% will exceed the Large Pack's maximum epa range.
Some feedback: People should know that LFP cells also degrade faster when they sit at high state of charge. Since overall degradation is somewhat slower, it is less of a concern, but it is still a thing. The advice to charge to 100% regularly is because it is necessary to do so for the battery management system to accurately guess how much charge is left. So given that, and the overall slower degredation, manufacturers advice to not worry about it. But you can still extend battery life by keeping state of charge lower most of the time. Also this max pack may appeal to people who do light towing or carry a family full of mountain bikes on the truck. Where that extra range can help you get to out of the way mountain bike locations like bentonville or palo dura canyon (Arkansas and surrounding states can be sparse on charging)
Max pack isn’t LFP
my comments are general, it was something Kyle spoke about in this video. @@franksmartin1
Great summary guys and thanks for cemented my decision to wait on the Standard Battery Pack for my R1S on order. You guys have any idea when Rivian will start producing the R1S with the Standard Pack Battery? Thanks again for all you both do for the Rivian community.
Last timing I heard on standard LFP pack was 2024, but we might get an update on the Q3 earnings call.
Honestly, when towing my camper, I’d love to have another 25 miles of range on a full charge. That would get me to our favorite campgrounds without having to stop. Charging with a 31’ camper is no fun.
But that’s what they are saying too is that the real world difference might be smaller because some of it relies on efficiency which evaporates under a towing scenario. For me, it would be the ability to do my 400KM trip into the mountains with the camper without having to stop at the crappy 50kw chargers. That’s the dream, anyways. I just don’t think we are quite there yet.
Are you really towing a 31’ camper with a Rivian though? I can’t imagine you getting much range at all doing so.
When will you get one to do some real range testing on a dual motor max pack?
Interesting conversation. Thanks for sharing. I’m one that was thinking the max pack would solve my concerns, but it doesn’t sound like it. I commute 210 miles round trip in a model Y. During the winter I can’t make it round trip and charging infrastructure is severely lacking, so I’d like the additional range to make it round trip year round without charging. Also want to pull our camper with my vehicle and I was hoping the NACS network and max pack would do the trick. Guess I have to keep waiting. Was considering the R1S max pack.
There’s always a cost-benefit analysis with any upgrade, so I’m nodding right along with you about the extra range not being worth $10k to most people. But we ARE talking about 50 miles of extra capacity, which can be a huge deal for a lot of people (like me) who make frequent trips in a radius of about half their vehicle’s range. You focus a lot of the conversation on towing and roadtrips, but MUCH more common use cases for people are long commutes, traveling to area friend’s and family’s, going to kids’ sport events at area schools, traveling to doctor’s appointments, day trips, etc. *especially* for those people who don’t live in a metro area that they almost never leave. So if I’m driving from my rural home to the city once a week or so, and find that the round trip (plus errands, etc) is just on the edge of a 300-350 mile capacity, and my range anxiety makes me find a charger and sit for 30 minutes to top up, this extra range could add up to some serious time savings in the long run. Obviously a 450-mile range pack would have been much more welcomed but I do think the current max pack will find a real market beyond dummies who just want the latest and greatest or those who don’t understand EVs.
Still waiting to order R1S - struggling with what to order when the time comes - thanks for this discussion - i do head into backcountry in the Sierra Nevada and travel to southern Utah wilderness - range is a concern - charging in Kanab, Moab is limited - perhaps when Tesla supercharges become available that range anxiety wont be much of an issue
Magic Dock is now active in Moab, that should help alot!
Tesla recently installed Magic Docks at a supercharger locations in Moab. So now there are 8 Tesla 250kW CCS chargers there anyone can use.
I need the extra range to get to our cabin in Duck creek village Utah from Las Vegas. For the 20 inch all-terrain wheel tire package Would I get a lot better range if I replaced the all-terrain tires with street tires? Would the range with the right tires on the 20 inch wheels be as good as the 21 inch? Thx
20’s should be more efficient than 21’s if you have the same model of tire on both. I recently read a post where an owner tested both wheel sizes using AS tires over several thousands of miles and the 20’s resulted in about 10% better efficiency. Now even though the sample size is one and there could be some testing bias (unconsciously trying to be more efficient on the 20’s). Also he didn’t say what time of year they were each done at. I hope it’s accurate because 10% is a significant improvement!
Rivian always struggled to figure out where to add more cells for max pack in the vehicle. Getting rid of spare tire cavity or 3rd row seat was probably on the table. But they opted to not do that. Would people rather Rivian add more cells and remove those other vehicle features like 3rd row or spare tire?
Finding space can be a challenge for EV automakers. Battery energy density is key for future EVs
Outside of 100% charging, will the Standard pack provide any additional benefits over the Large pack? Could the Standard pack potentially weigh less, provide better efficiency, or have faster charging?
If the standard pack is using LFP cells, then it might not be too much lighter, but like you said, you should be able to charge it to 100% consistently without issue, the battery pack will last longer, it is safer, more environmentally friendly, and it is cheaper, but I wouldn't count on having faster charging or too much higher of efficiency.
I would love to see Rivian add rear wheel steering!!
I was a long time Max Pack die hard customer, but the proverbial can kept getting kicked down the line, and when Mason confirmed it was the same architecture as the large pack, and would only be a dual motor variant, at least in the near term, I switched to quad large in January. Honestly, I'm so glad I did. It's been a phenomenal vehicle, and the range has been more than sufficient.
I did the same. I also switched from the truck to the SUV when they got rid of the camp kitchen, the bed/tonneau has had issues, and I saw a video suggesting there was more leg room in the 2nd row of the SUV (which I'm not sure is true). No ragets!
Congrats to both of you on good decisions!
Excellent podcast! Your conclusions are spot-on! Rivian is indeed a young company and it has many hurdles to traverse before it gets to profitability and acceptance as a viable company. Once they achieve these milestones they can implement those improvements that will take advantage of higher charging rates and more efficient cooling and battery technology! In the meantime, keep up the Yeoman's work you do spreading the word about this unique company and the wonderful people behind its gestational progress!
Thanks for info and helping lot floks including Rivian.
I Hope rivian may increase the max speed to 250kw and reduce the overall charging time.
10% to 80% in 30 mins . It is my wish for Rivian.
Hmm. I am disappointed to hear it's just a different cell chemistry vs. more cells. I was hoping the Max Pack would fix the derating/cooling issue. BUT I don't think needing a bigger max pack is as much as an edge case as you say. If you are towing a trailer up to the mountains you are likely going uphill and there are often not chargers where you arrive. Since these are adventurous vehicles, I think it's very normal to expect many people having this scenario. Roads trips where you slingshot from charger to charger across a freeway network there are very few issues. Going to wilderness is where you want every kWh of battery.
Been considering 'downgrading' my pre-pricehike max pack reservation to the quad large pack for awhile, justified not doing so because I was waiting for reintroduction of powered tonneau anyways so I figured I should hold off and see what max pack has to offer. Between this news of a simple chemistry change, no 800V architecture and the news that powered tonneau will be a future retrofit option for all trucks, I guess it makes my decision easy! Still kind curious to see if there are any other small differences (ie. badging).
Nice video, I think the range component is more important than you make it sound, in case of limited ability to charge ( ill come back to that in a moment) , your real range is divided by two, meaning if my final destination closest point of charge is 140mile, well ill need 280 mile (+losses and any stand bye battery usage), so for range extension not to be important we would need 80% of the map covered. We live in Wisconsin, and it is very easy to test the limit and take risk as soon as you go north a bit (just 150 miles), then is it desert land (7kw charge could be found but that is not an option). I guess you will argue let us develop the network, but that is counterintuitive from a "adventure vehicle". I like the way Ram is going about it, something that could be optimized in case or as a complement. We like our R1t, but over the last 18 month, we have been brought back to reality, it is a fancy commuter no more.
After waiting years for the Max Pack, this seems like a disappointing bait-and-switch. If they had kept the original plans for a 180kWh battery, the truck would have over 450 miles of range. It's really a betrayal on the part of Rivian.
I love to watch both of you. Typically you present more data than anyone else. Let’s do some comparisons. You did a great job with the available info. I “needed” the Max Pack as there was no way to get my boat to and from the lake without it. Happy to help if I can.
I put a reserve on an R2, I tested an R1T today in Nashville, next I’ll test a Model Y and the R1S. Rivian has my attention.
The R2 is going to be a nice competition for the MY.
@@miami3863 model y was nice but rivian is so much better,I hope they pull through and don’t have to file for bankruptcy.
Totally agree. Super disappointed with the MAX Pack. Not only can't I get Quad Motor with it, the price difference delta getting downgraded on my pre-ordered R1T to Performance Dual Motors is only $500, instead of the $3k that they actually are charging currently. The fact that the only difference is a cell chemistry difference, makes it even more of a disappointment, as they haven't addressed any of the issues with battery temp management and charging speed. I guess the only thing I am now waiting for, is for them to make the powered tonneau cover available again.
They need to get better thermal management on their vehicles. I do road trip often and would need better charging curves. I’m waiting for the nacs connector to become native. Rather avoid carrying to many adapters
I think what matters is how much energy can you get in the high power portion of the curve. That's what is important for travel. If one runs at 200 kW for 10 minutes and the other runs at 200 kW for 15 minutes that's a big deal.
From what I hear is it’ll take an extra few minutes to charge so likely some extra time at high power but right now thermals are the limit and there’s no indication at this time that there’s an upgraded thermal system to handle sustained high charging power. We’ll of course do all of the testing as we can!
@@KyleConner that will be great to get test data. I was waiting for max pack and I decided to go large. I placed deposit on Sept 14th and I pick up the car tomorrow (30th). Here we go. :)
I think people are forgetting that they are still going to do a Max pack with Quad sometime in the future, that's probably going to be the 180+ battery we are all hoping for. They said as much when they took it off the menu for now
I’ll stay with my max pack pre-order, as even just 20% more range will be significant to my towing usage.
Any way you can do a range test of the cheapest model dual motor standard battery?
My desired road-tripping EV will allow me to drive at highway speeds for up to 3 hours and then charge in 20 minutes and go for another 3 hours. So, less about pack size and more about charging network and vehicle charging curve. So far, my Tesla MYLR seems to the best option.
I did a round trip from MN to Key West Florida this April. You I pretty much just described my roadtripping pattern….closer to 30 min but honestly because most of my stops were at Walmarts, it would take me that long to get to the bathrooms, get some snacks and drink and figure out my next stop. I have the Rivian R1S Launch Edition which includes the Large Pack.
Unless battery developers come up with some crazy new energy dense cells, Rivian is not going to get much more range out of the same battery housing size. If they go with a higher-voltage system, that means less amp-hours if the size isn't increased. However you slice it, it's not going to work unless they can cram a more cells in their trucks without taking up precious cabin or storage space.
What would make a larger difference to R1 customers is to expand RAN, fast charging and reliability of RAN is a big plus. They can always avoid installing where Tesla fast chargers are available to optimize usability. Now that they are charging for RAN there should be a return on investment.
Have a very early Rivian reservation with Max Pack. Probably not going to get it if it’s not that much better.
400 miles EPA sounds pretty good for the dual motor once Tesla's chargers are available. Great to hear good things about Rivian. I'm waiting to see what Tesla does with the Cybertruck before making my final decision.
Commented on another video but with new devlopments i.e. electric RV with it's own propulsion, this could alleviate towing anxiety
It should be noted that Early Reservation Holders selected the Max Pack option for $7K, not the $10K for subsequent/current reservationists and stated throughout this discussion.
Higher voltage means they need to change the motors and the inverters for the higher voltage.
The enduro motors are/should be 800v capable. It's really the other components that would be a problem.
@@football0552 Why would you build a motor bigger then the requirements. It would just increase cost.
@@ahbushnell1 future proof the motor for both R1 updates and r2. 800v isn't a size thing either.
I wanted to understand the weight penalty.. but now answered.. I wish it was less battery/weight at around 350miles. LFP chem. R1S at around 6500lbs would be so much better.
I am a reservation holder for the max pack. I am really bummed without the quad motor.
Now the R1T max pack just downgrade itself to go head on with the Silverado EV. Which has 350kw charging capability. After reviewing this video, the Silverado EV can tow with 1.4miles/kWh. ruclips.net/video/OSOfnQe5Uew/видео.htmlsi=MbOuciLf3MiWe4-z
I really doubt I will take delivery of a Riven R1T at this point.
An electric car for long trips with a range of 330 is a pain in the rear. You have to save 10% just in case especially when you can't count on charging stations working correctly.
If they can get the range to 400, cross country trips would be much easier.
I am sure many people will disagree with me, those people don't travel west of the Mississippi (excluding the coast of California).
20:40 and that is why I don't have an EV. One because nothing out there will tow a large 5th wheel, but more importantly, overall charge time added to longer trips. I can easily get 575 miles to the tank without a trailer between fill-ups and then to add the equivalent of about 1.6 MWh into the truck in about 120 seconds is great. All for about the same price, maybe a bit more than someone "filling" up a Hummer EV on DCFC. Once you can get newer technology so that a 1 & 1.25 ton truck towing a 20,000+ lb trailer can get decent mileage we should be good. It just won't happen with any of the current battery technology we have today in EV's. When you lose well over 1/2 your range with a fairly light trailer, just making the pack larger isn't a good option as weight will become a huge factor. Just look a the monstrosity of the Hummer EV at over 9000 lbs, where that's heavier than my F350. 👍🤠 Keep up the good work both of you!
Dual motor max pack is here imo because of all the orders locked in at 80k like me. I ordered a quad max pack and Rivian changed it on me. They are already losing a ton of money. It’s a money thing imo.
Rivian should have released the Max pack with 200+kW capacity.
That would weigh over 10,000 lb
LFP longevity still benefits from not charging 100%, That's what they're finding out
When Rivian started installing 400 V fast chargers it was kind of a strong hint that they have no plan to go 800 volt.
RAN chargers are 920v capable...
The MAXimum profit R1 trim.
Wait, Max pack is not larger than Large pack? It's just chemistry change? That doesn't sound right
You increase the battery size then your useful payload shrinks compared to GVWR.
So it’s not just about adding battery but also upsizing the structure / breaks to keep up with heavier vehicle…
You guys talk a ton about towing without mentioning GVWR…
NEED PULL THROUGH CHARGERS!!!
I was a max pack holdout after placing my order in Dec '18 at the L.A. Auto show, where they explained the max pack would use the space under the rear seat (ex the area for the woofer) for the additional battery to gain the "over 400 mile" range. In mid 2022 I figured the max pack would not either 1. be available in 2023 or, 2. Have the range as expected. So, I got the large pack & have had to sit for charging above 80% or stop at every possible charger 5 times since August 2023. The range anxiety once thought to be because there wasn't the range to get to the next charger has changed to anxiety about finding a charger that works or works at more than 50 kw with the battery at below 30% S.O.C. If Chevy's long range work truck becomes available, I will take my "corner case" & look seriously at the Chevy to replace the R1T. At least I could get real satellite radio (hopefully) there. Where I live in CA i still run out of cell service on local roads. I'd love for my R1T to out road trip my 2004 Dodge diesel but, I doubt I'll live long enough to see anything close to that. Barely over 400 miles completely empty is not close to what was expected. With my 1500# glider trailer (all up weight) the best I get is 155 miles (21" tires). Nice truck to drive & does some things very well but, not worth the extra $$ if you leave out the climate impact. The climate impact is WHY I drive it now, not for the use case. I put up with the hours longer trips for the climate impact.
lol! Some of y’all are really trying to make this max pack seem reasonable. I got a mlm for y’all to invest in.
If range has not been a problem then you are not really camping. Going to the campsites within 70 miles from your home is not what I would call camping. Sounds like the large vs max pack comparison has not been done, aside from chatting about it
If you are towing a camper a larger pack is needed.
See InsideEVs Story from 12/26/2023: Rivian R1T Owner Says His Truck Has Been Out For Repairs For Eight Months for a damaged side camera!
Out of Spec definitely not out of speculation here.
#maxpacklife ❤
Adding more and more battery is adding weight, cost and longer charging times. The Hummer EV is a behemoth. Let’s see how the Cybertruck specs out.
To me Rivian would be better served to have spent their R&D on faster charging.
Rivian ended up being biggest let down. I waited for it for years, just to watch it suck offroad. Hopefully Jeep doesn't go out of business so they can make a real electric Offroader.
If you want to beat GAS cards you have to be able to drive over 300 highway miles in winter easily with full of people in the car. My model Y gets 180 highway miles in winter and it is annoying when i go visit my grandma that lives 420 miles away from me and there are no chargers around her. When i am there i can’t drive my car at all. Why would someone pay 60K for a car if he can’t comfortably use it. SO WE NEED 400mile and 500 mile batteries.
Alternative to 500 miles of range (for me at least) is 300 of all weather range with 15 minutes charging for every three hours of highway driving. This doesn’t appear to be too far off. Polestar has announced that they have this tech and plan to produce it in a few years. If so others brands will hopefully get it as well.
Such underwhelming news ensure that very very few people will choose Maxpack.
And, the money Rivian invested in developing the Maxpack might make it a money loser... especially if everyone snubs it.
If they lower the price, Rivian can make money, but keep it at this ridiculous price, it becomes "Explore" part II.
“Real world”. Road trip 10% blah blah. I’ll be using my max pack as a daily. That’s “real world”.
410 isn't enough for all the added weight, loss of efficiency, not worth it.
There’s no extra weight though since it uses the exact same layout. It’s just a chemistry change
So my take on this regarding the ridiculous price premium for the max pack … they really don’t want to sell them 😂. It’s similar to asking a plumber or an electrician to price a job at your house when they are already slammed with backlog … they throw out a flyer bid mostly to imply “sorry I’m too busy but if you’re that desperate…” . This is simply a marketing tactic to say their vehicles can get “up to 410 miles of range” and have a legit option to back that claim but in reality all they want to sell is the large pack at this point in time.
Kyle is upset that Rivian didn't spend hundreds of millions to produce a physically larger pack with 800 V and improved cooling. However he doesn't want to spend even $10,000 more for the more expensive cells Rivian is using in their max pack. Would towing be much better if Rivian did what Kyle suggests? Certainly. However it is more important for Rivian to become a profitable company first.
Please Rivian.. offer acceleration boost monthly fee to collect more margin..
LLLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEE😠
why sound is bad?
Why is the audio so terrible? It's a podcast.....the audio needs to be better.
Had the same problem. Had to turn up the volume to listen but then the ad would come on and blast away. I have a surround sound set up so that may have been the issue.
All this CRAP is LAME.... I'll stick with my F250 Powerstroke. My 100% recharge (36 gallon) x18mpg = 400mi range takes me 10 min. AND I can fill up anywhere!