Is The WCA Cooked? | Sliding Timer Stops And The Future
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- Опубликовано: 29 июл 2024
- It's no secret that sliding timer stops have recently been a big deal in the cubing community. Here I am to give my two cents about it. As of now, the WRC still hasn't given a clear statement on this topic, but I'm sure they will in the future.
I initially made a RUclips Short on this topic, but I felt as if that video was incomplete and rushed. It is unlisted now, but if you want to see it, here it is: • THIS VIDEO IS INCOMPLE...
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Music:
Mini Vandals - Chromatic Rag
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Jeremy Blake - Final Girl
Density & Time - GROWTH_DECAY
Silverman Sound Studios - Feather Duster
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Intro 0:00
Part 1 0:52
Part 2 2:45
Part 3 4:42
Part 4 6:02
Part 5 8:08
Ad Time 8:57 
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Cant wait for 0.21s 2x2 wr single
lol 😂
hey i recognize you
@@BasementStudi0s me?
No Luke carrot replied to one of my videos once and I freaked out thinking it was luke
Good vid btw
Dick Fosbury is an extremely bad example, because he wasn't abusing any loopholes in the rules. He was just doing something no one else was doing. Normally when athletes abuse loopholes, the rules are changed to prevent it from being abused further.
A better example is the pole vaulter David Volz, known for popularizing the method "Volzing", where you touch/push the bar back so it wouldn't fall while you jump over it. That method ended up being banned; you compete by seeing how high you can jump, not how well you can abuse a rule loophole.
As for when you say "It's speedcubing, not speed timer-starting," I agree. That's exactly why sliding shouldn't be allowed. If the only way to get WR is through sliding, then short events will devolve into "speed timer-starting". That goes against the spirit of the WCA.
This is exactly what I was thinking
2:20 Love the Tingboy cover sightings 😍
Appreciate the thought that went into this video. Will be interesting to see what new regulations may arise from this issue!
i love you channel
@@Tingman how are you everywhere???
I think that sliding should not be allowed, however i do not think that people should blame yiheng for this
why should we blame yiheng he isn't getting in trouble so why shouldn't he (i don't like them but if it's allowed i don't care)
It's like blaming someone for encouraging hundreds of people to stop transfer of power. You might not like it, but enough people like it so what was once considered cheating becomes considered a smart move.
I think it should be allowed but in 0.76 solve of Yiheng, he literally got a negative pickup time
But frame counting the solve resulted in 0.80!!
I am a competitive 2x2er who avgs 1.2 without sliding and it was my goal to get WR avg. And I don’t want to have to live with myself cheating but I guess I’ll have to start 😢.
@@Fun_Cube_Master Sliding isn't cheating unless the pickups times are negative
Maybe to stop this, the wca could make a stabilized distance to place the cube before starting the solve ???
Like: you have to place your cube 5cm away the timer, and maybe put a mark in the matt
I don't know, I am just thinking
that's actually a p good idea
Best solution I’ve heard of. It would work
I wonder how j perm feels about his son causing everything cubing related to possibly change.
The problem with 4 pad is that if you get a bad scramble, you can actually just start and stop the timer really fast with your thumb, and then get an extra, as long as it's under 0.06 seconds.
You can do the same thing in 2 pad
@@FastestCubesI’ve tried it on my G4, it’s a lot harder and a lot less subtle.
A6b1) If the timer stops before the competitor has solved the puzzle and the timer shows a time strictly below 0.06 seconds, then the attempt is replaced by an extra attempt. A competitor forfeits the right to the additional attempt if the WCA Delegate determines that the timer was stopped deliberately.
Note the second part of this regulation.
@@kaiserreich1848 How had I never seen that lol
@@ananimatingcuber It's still pretty easy and subtle on 2 pad, but 4 pad would be easier. And if video review doesn't count, on 4 pad it could be impossible to tell if it was intentional or not. I think the WCA should stop using speedstacks and design a more cubing orientated timer.
For me, the solution to timer sliding starts would be to make the timers so that they start in four pad, making it very hard to slide start, but let the ending still be two pad, as I feel as though finding those thumb pads at the end is the biggest time waste of four pad. This would help with some issues of two pad, without completely ruining sprint event times. The only downside is that this would cost money, and could be a little bit confusing to add for new competitors/regulations. I do think that it could work and maybe make the problem a little bit better.
The issue with allowing sliding starts is it is possible to essentially have negative timer starts and it be unnoticeable.
If the WCA wants cubing to become a sport and be taken more seriously officially, they can't allow sliding and need to fix this mess, whether it's 4-pad mode or something else. The integrity of fast events depends on it given that at least on one solve Yiheng was turning the cube before starting the timer and that's cheating, no matter how you look at it. Just my two cents.
there needs to be a g6 timer so that its 4pad start-2pad stop
@@skewb48 yeah that has to be a thing. we gotta get speedstacks to see this
@@LightninH4_ like my only issue with 4 pad is the small area to stop. a 2 pad stop 4 pad start would be actually usable lol
@@skewb48 yeah my thoughts exactly. i use a g5 and i like it more than my g4
@@skewb48 i feel like full 4-pad is still usable, just as speedstacking it would take time to get used to, but when we get used to it we won't even tell the difference
I think this is a technology issue. The WCA needs to get away from stack mat and just create their own timer
And that's exactly why i main fmc
Great analysis. Thanks. I think the community should adopt new timers such as a 4 pad start, 2 pad stop G5/G6 timers, or one made by TimeBase perhaps. That should solve the problem with the least impact.
Legit issue: trying to start legally as fast as possible can actually lead to a slide by accident, especially if you are seated low (the timer is just in the way). The disputed incidents so far have all been with young kids apparently.
This is how you enforce a no timer sliding rule without a high speed camera:
Put a boundary that's the same height as the cube, like a piece of cardboard, between the timer and the cube, so the competitor will have to lift their hands up instead of sliding.
If the competitor touches and moves the cardboard while moving from the timer to the cube, then it's obvious they are guilty of timer sliding.
Simply putting the timer on an elevation does not work, as you can still just slid forwards and down toward the cube. The only way an elevation might work is if you put the timer on a shelf with a space under it, where you will put the cube.
Just get a high speed camera if you're able to set a WR. Would only impact a very small fraction of the cubing community.
@@fatsquirrel75 That doesn't make sense. What if someone's never gotten a wr before but then they get a wr. You can't see into the future to see that that person will set a wr.
bro your editing is actually insane. I really hope to see you grow more cause ur understated af this video is amazing.
So the solution is for the WCA to switch to requiring smartcubes. Smartcube can trigger start timing on first turn, and end timing when the cube hits the solved state. Focus on speedcubing, not speed-timer-starting.
That would be cool, but at the moment, all the best smart cubes are too expensive for the average cuber. And there’s also the issue of cheating by seeing the scramble/solution beforehand from other peoples’ solves
I think what you summarised in part 5 will be the best option
Yoo the editing is GOATED 🔥🔥🗣️🗣️
Fantastic video
I had a squan average disqualification cause of frame analysis so I’m hoping that If there is a precedent that it’s consistent
To me, allowing sliding stops feels like a cheap solution. There are very easy, free strategies we can use to make sliding non viable, while I think 4-pad should be the norm (and eventually will be anyway), elevating the timer would work well enough. While I agree that making records slower is a bad idea, it still feels like sliding gives new players an unfair advantage over older records, it's not an improvement in any type of skill at all.
Kind of feels like we're reaching a moment where cubing just needs it's own timer system built for cubing. Making the timer taller and putting the sensors further apart would probably be better for cubing. But that's also logistically not going to happen so 🤷♀
@@alnd I thought someone is working on a cubing-specific timer (Timebase)? If so, this could be a feature request.
@@statmango ooh i hadn’t heard of that, i hope that anti sliding stuff is incorporated.
Then should instead make you have to put your palms on there but also have a longer distance to the cube so you cant pick it up instantly
This is kind of the same situation as in powerlifting; There are rules set to prevent people from cheating or getting a small advantage, but it still happens, because it is really hard to determine if it was just over what was allowed and what was not allowed.
Solution is to require high speed footage and timers for any elite records to stand. Just as you use high tech timers at the olympics, but a stop watch will do for a school event.
Would ensure all WR's are legit, and wouldnt impact the average competitor/event in any way.
IMO 4 pad is the solution, it doesn't affect that much
your content is so underrated
just be like stacking and enforce 4-pad at this point lol, stacking had the exact same problem
Possibly stupid question, but couldn't they just put the timer behind the cube, so you have to slide back (and therefore instantly engage the timer) to pick up the cube?
i feel like that would be more difficult when stopping the timer because you would have to extend your arms, people with shorter arms would be at a disadvantage
very nice video!
Yo the picture you used at 3:45 was from a comp I just went to
Cool video! What editing program do you use? Also what font did you use?
Hitfilm Express, and TW Cen MT!
1:35 You said putting your palms on the pad is a big no no, but right here his palms are on the pads, heck his fingers aren't even touching them they're actually touching the surface of the table and most definitely not the pads.
I like the idea of getting closer to the actual solve time without pickup time. Waiting for the day when there will be a switch over for everyone to use Smart Cubes. Of course it will suck for all previous solving ranks similar for all clock solvers before the pin change
4 pad 2x2?
We need a timer that is the least disruptive, not the most disruptive, adding unnecessary time sucks, use camera tracking or whatever.
Automatic camera tracking software is either very iffy, or requires a lot of CPU power, at least to my knowledge. A possible timer setup could be if the timer was in the speedstacks mat, and began when the solver lifted the cube. This would mean that OH table abuse would no longer be possible, however, and this would severely affect over half of oh solvers, especially those who use roux.
@@notmecubes I like the matt one.
im ngl i used sliding timer starts in like all of my 2x2 avgs, im not even sure people even noticed it until recently
🧐🧐🧐
I actually managed to find the 2 solves using slide at 2:15 lmao, i thought the 1st used sliding, then the 2nd i thought was normal, and the 3rd i also thought used sliding, and i was like wtf? is there actually only 1?
The puzzle should have to be a certain distance from the timer (there would be a mark on the mat)
Yoo nice
This is how the downfall of cubing starts. It happens with every competitive hobby:
When a hobby becomes more competitive and it attracts more people, companies and corporations and "official" groups start to get involved.
It becomes mainstream. Eventually, the whole thing becomes corporate and soulless, and not about the actual hobby any more, it's just about being the best at any cost.
Casual enjoyers are then alienated from the community for not being "real" blanks because they don't go to "official" events.
This will continue until eventually the only people left will be the people at the top who don't actually care about cubing itself at all.
Zayn has said he will never do sliding starts
4pad is such an obvious solution
I think that, the top 10 or something of an event must have a vidéo reccord of his solve to be axcepted as a reccord by the WCA, we all have Phone, this is totaly possible to do and this would stop sliding which is totaly a cheat...
i may be weird to yall, but 15s inspection and 5s solve is insane. i wanna global reset and no inspection: solver should pick up paper cup covering cube themself
We Dont have to purchase New timers, it is only necessary to use a 4 gen timer with the 4 pad mode
Just use 4-pad and it will be fine.
Hi
nice video
Thank you very much
To be fair we should fix abusing hardware material. Should speedstacks make better and more improved timers?
this is my alternate account of my cubing channel but why im commenting is i just want to say that the wca should enforce 4-pad mode so this cant happen in my opinion
REAL
Did the WCA actually make any statements about this?
You keep saying the record will stand and I'm assuming thats just speculation on your part...
Yeah that is just speculation, but pretty much every WCA official I've talked to says that the record will probably stand.
ahh i know! all competitiors must use the stackmat g5 an 4 pad then noone can cheat anymore
Just use smart cubes for time
Where's Pomni740 when you need him?
why is he literally everywhere
@@eclipse_cubing i honestly don't even know, either hes a desperate kid, or a troll that is a fan/friend of yiheng
I guess we can just let it "slide".
See what i did there
💀
Opinion:in the cubing community,WRs are so important that they define your skill level completely and that's the only thing non-cubers and even most of the cubers look up to. So much so that it is more important than winning big competitions even the world championships.
Due to this situation, people(cubers) only seem to care about anything when the wr is broken.
Why?nobody would have cared if kalindu got a 23-24 ish mean and entered the top 100 rankings. But due to it being a wr, it caught so much attention that the wca got involved. Here also, if yihengs skill set was lower and he averaged just over 1 sec and there was no way to get videos of his averages, nobody would have given a damn even if he was in the top 5. Most of the cubing achievements are centred around getting WRs and that makes me think how much cheating actually goes on at the lower levels that is people who cheat but aren't world class to actually get those WRs. They might win comps due to this and nobody bothers to check at all. Wca needs stricter regulations. WRs aren't the only thing that matters. As speedcubing evolves into a sport, the overall integrity of official competitions plays a huge role in its development.WRs get broken every weekend but for how long?in the next 10-15 years many events will reach their limit(I might be wrong on this one) and WRs will come once in a blue moon and then what?
Will nobody care about anything and people will still go on winning comps,entering top rankings and developing a good reputation in the community just because they can get away with things.
Hey
You cannot willingly allow cheating. 4-pad mode is the obvious move forward
4:28 ayoo is this my video??? 👀Haha
In my eyes theres 2 things to do
Ether just allow sliding as a official way of starting timer as with all sports there is innovations
or if not, requiring video for all solves/have official cameras, stacking comps have pretty much used official cameras for its entire existence so maybe its time WCA follows so it can get caught faster then not
if you asked any timed sporting event (sprinting, swiming, etc) to wait to start the timer until after you took your first 2 steps off the blocks, but ONLY for you, they would laugh you off the field.
When fractions of a second matter, you can NOT allow this type of behavior. It isn't 'being creative' like the poor example of Fosbury. it's deliberately sabotaging the equipment used to keep things fair.
I think the example you gave is also somewhat of a poor one.
It's not just that one person is allowed to use sliding, it's that everyone is. If everyone does it, it's only fair, right?
This discussion is rapidly evolving though, and I'm not as happy with sliding as I was 4 days ago.
This is a terrible analogy. Times do not start when you want in sprints you could sit at the blocks forever and the timer would roll without at all caring about you
@@q12aw50 Poor analogy or not, the fact remains that they are effectively tampering with the operation of equipment used to keep the competition fair.
@@zeekutartheimmortal your analogy was shit to begin with there was no reason to go into huge detail as to why they aren’t comparable
@@q12aw50 I'm not. I said we can set the analogy aside. I said regardless, letting people dictate how much or how little time starts before they start working on the cube is tampering with the fairness of the compitition. But rather than comment on that, or why you think I'm wrong, you resort to calling the no longer relevant analogy shit. I'm done with you.
I think it’s definitely hard, we need to ban sliding but it will be very hard to enforce
*I don't care how anyone stops the timer, as long as his cube is finished before they karate chop or whatever. The best way to see if someone is cheating is to look at the main clock and the cube when it started and stopped. Did he already pick up the cube before his timer started, as Wang does, and did his timer stop before he finished his last layer turn? It's so easy to look at the main clock and the cube and not at his hands or wrist and the clock.*
"its only a matter of time before pro clockers, skewbers and pyraminxers start using this" i know that ezra at least uses sliding starts, and has used in comp
He does? I checked his WR avg footage and didn't see anything of concern. Send me a vid of him using it plz
the video has been sent and is very interesting
@@notmecubes can you send it to me pls?
@feliciensteux5302 it's ezra's 1.51 avg
As a sprint event main I sincerely hope that sliding is banned because it’s such a huge difference and would mean that it would essentially become a requirement to be fast. It’s not supposed to be about a weird timer trick that leaves anyone following the rules at a disadvantage
good video, i hope people stop the hate towards Yiheng
i dont want to learn sliding for clock im already busy enough learning psuedo 7simul 😎😎😎😎
Smart
Just make it a requirement for the cube to be at least 15cm away from the timer or so before beginning the solve.
4 point start could help as well.
6 inches, are you crazy?
the wca could put like a piece of cartboary between the cube and the timer that pervents the cuber to slide and forces the cuber to lift his hands up and start the timer with his fingers
L takes tbh and the wca won't get better by allowing unfair advantages with potentially reg breaking practices. Just use 4 pad and if your excuse is finances then you have no clue how much goes to waste behind the scenes.
I'd say it's still a problem if it's a financial thing. I'd go as far to say: Why the fuck haven't we gotten standardized cubes used by the WCA?
Almost, every other sport does this in some way, giving you the equipment that you use. Speedcubing is one of the few that doesn't, and I think that's, not a good thing at all! So many reasons, most of them tied into how it makes cubing a consumption hobby, where buying the best gear is part of it.
The fact that Gan is able to sell hundred dollar cubes is emblematic of this culture, no matter how good they are.
Unfair advantages to who?
I have defended sliding starts ever since the WR average dropped, and this is a really good video, thanks NotMe
Smart cubes.
Answer is no, and yes, respectively
Oh no... skill issue
4:19 Please use nicklas : R U' L' U R' U' L
yiheng wang is the goat you cant change my mind
disappointing
I think sliding should be discouraged but not abolished
Okay, but why aren't we talking about timers being a thing of the past? As cubing gains more viewers worldwide, it has to refine how it's timed. Smart cubes are what we need. Not only will that eliminate all these controversies, but also give us the EXACT time in which a cube is solved.
do we already have a smart cube that performs as good as a normal
ok, so make a smart 2x2, 4x4, 5x5, 6x6, 7x7, pyraminx, skewb, square-1, megaminx, and clock, optimise the hardware enough to be competitive with current speedcubes, make everyone pay $5000 or whatever they'd cost combined or alternatively make delegates buy all of that and make comp registration fees skyrocket
everybody does this, stop dragging yiheng
Nuh uh
honestly i support sliding until regulations change, its unfair to take away yihengs average.
People just tryna find new ways to undermine yiheng’s skill because they are agist.
I think this is a technology issue. The WCA needs to get away from stack mat and just create their own timer