As many have brought up, it's also important to take into consideration the other part of section A4 (besides the rule against touching the cube whilst hands are on the timer): A4b) The competitor uses their fingers to touch the elevated sensor surfaces of the timer. The competitor's palms must be facing down, and located on the side of the timer that is closer to the competitor. Penalty: time penalty (+2 seconds).
I'm pretty sure there's a rule un the WCA regulations that proves this is not allowed: A4) Starting the solve: A4b) The competitor uses their -fingers- to touch the elevated sensor surfaces of the Stackmat timer. The competitor's palms must be facing down, and located on the side of the timer that is closer to the competitor. Penalty: time penalty (+2 seconds). So you should have your fingers on the pad when starting the timer, sliding seems to me like you're using your fingers first, but at the end you're starting with the back of your hand (almost your wrist), which shouldn't be allowed. Also, i've seen that sometimes Yiheng starts turning the cube before the timer started, which should also go against the rule that you can't touch the cube while starting the solve.
every sport is full of cheaters lately... and a lot are from china where they literally have a saying "if you can cheat then cheat" (loosely translated ofc)
@@jere1372 Yes you can do the timer any way required. I'm not familiar with the exact rules of competition. Basically, 1) Pickup to inspect starts 15sec inspection. 2) Put back down to register replaced. 3) Pickup to start official time. 4) Any registered touch back to mat ends timer. 5) Judges only required to monitor a) you place cube after inspection completely b) remove hands completely from cube.
@@PaddyPower_IRLcould cause problems with one handed solves if they use the table, and also accidentally bumping the map while solving. Could probably just record every time when there's pressure and then pick the one that's correct
Might be expensive, but pressure sensors on the cube itself might actually be used to accurately time when you start holding it and letting go. Could even be some magnetic signal type surfaces like those used in touch screens.
Everyone already doing it. People just jealous of Yiheng so they're picking on him. All the best times in the world have been pushing these boundaries.
@@cookierobber Ya and I've compared them to myself and others who go straight up and the top cubers become the outliers. So they are all taking advantage with their method, which is partly why they are best in the world. Depends on the sample you take. People are suddenly cherry picking who's times to assess. Do it yourself instead of spouting misinformation.
@@J.J.J.J.J.J.J There are plenty of examples of top 2x2ers to show that clearly not everyone is doing it. And it’s not about Yiheng, it’s about a level playing field for everyone and abiding by regulations. Ultimately it’s up to the WCA to change the regulations/allow sliding or make clear that it’s not ok and also enforce it, which is the trickiest part.
It's pretty clear cut for me, it breaks a couple of existing regs; B2b) When using the Stackmat timer, the competitor uses their fingers to touch the elevated sensor surfaces of the timer. The competitor's palms must be facing down, and located on the side of the timer that is closer to them. Penalty: time penalty (+2 seconds). A4b1) The competitor must have no physical contact with the puzzle while starting the solve. Penalty: time penalty (+2 seconds). Kit Clement was on my stream on Thursday and said, in his opinion, the average shouldn't count and it's very clear cut based on those regs. However... it wasn't possible to catch this in real time, and that's arguably the bigger issue. I predict an adjustment in the regs to make things a bit clearer and less open to abuse. And if that's the case, the Ellery .53 should be binned too as that's an even more obvious abuse of the regs! I didn't know about that one, but seeing it now it's super sus! Just my 2c lol, let's wait and see what happens. Also, another great vid, nice work 🙌
@@STUCUBE But isn't it better? since it more accurately represents the actual time that the cube is being solved? If they don't touch the cube before the timer starts, I feel that it makes sense.
@@picklypt I agree it's more accurate as long as it can't be abused... I mean, what if you can do the whole solve with hands still on the timer and just lift and drop the hands mid-solve. It may be easy for delegates to detect on a recorded replay but a lot of judges would just write down the time, no questions asked.
Yiheng's starts for sure break the regs. WRC precedent makes it problematic to actually *apply* the regs here, but starting the timer with your palms/wrists is clearly illegal (not to mention the 0.74 where he *started turning* before actually starting the timer)
@@pixxxxxel3403 That's what I was talking about with WRC policy. It's *unambiguously* against the regs, but WRC has historically been lenient if it can't be caught in real time. That precedent was based on people who have *slightly sloppy* starts/stops tho, not people who are deliberately breaking the regs. It's a different situation and there's a reasonable argument to be made that the same precedent shouldn't apply here
@@dan-bz7dz A4 covers starting the solve, and A4b specifies you must do so by touching the sensors with your fingers, with palms on your side of the timer
wouldnt say nostalgic, im not nostalgic for lucas's 4.90. it definitely has a weird feeling of that insane solve isnt even wr average holy shit, i remember that being groundbreaking though (also rip keaton ellis's wr)
solution: make 4-pad mandatory, it won't be perfect, but it will definitely cut down the timesave by a very significant margin, as well as make sliding very difficult, thus making the problem not as severe
Some past records have used sliding though so they would have to DQ every single record that uses sliding and then switch and that would take a lot of analysis. Also, there is no way of verifying records without recordings.
i bet if they make 4-pad mandatory the entire cubing community is gonna genuinely flip out and a year later everyone will be fine with it, that's what happened with stacking lol
2:30 - Part of the rules is that you cannot touch the timer with your palms when starting the timer, you have to use your fingers. „A4) Starting the solve: A4b) The competitor uses their fingers to touch the elevated sensor surfaces of the Stackmat timer. The competitor's palms must be facing down, and located on the side of the timer that is closer to the competitor. Penalty: time penalty (+2 seconds). A4b1) The competitor must have no physical contact with the puzzle while starting the solve. Penalty: time penalty (+2 seconds).”
Yeah a lot of people have been mentioning this, it’s mostly gonna come down to the judge noticing it with the current regs we have in relation to framecouting. But that’s the main one now that I’m realizing will have to be looked into more
THANK U tymon hopefully the wca does regulate this and make a decision, whether by removing the average now or by making an announcement banning the technique
YES i reached the exact same conclusion you _must_ start the timer with your figertips slidig basically eliminates that, and you end up starting the timer with your palms/wrist anyways as a result
@@paper2222you probably wouldn't recognize me from this username, but I know you from like way back 2020/2021(?) in the colemak server. Just cool to see someone lol.
Oh man, good point about what the point is for self-filming. I suspect we'll see people privately film, but then not release them (I lost the footage in a boating accident).
Seems reasonably legal as long as al the turning is done inside the timers timeframe, what's the point of counting picking up and putting down the cube as part of a solve?
Note* obviously it needs to be studied more and some changes will be required but as long as you don't get time " discrepancies " it seems like a reasonable technique that doesn't take part of the solve process
I just kinda assumed that this was a Technique everyone was already doing. Why would you life your hands up instead of rushing straight for the cube/cups? Then logically you’d follow by attempting to keep pressure on the timer for as long as possible before touching the cube
Sliding removes the timing of the dead air between time start and cube start As far as I am concerned time start and cube start should be the same Sliding good
As long as the rules are clear, and applied consistently, then this isn't a problem. Everyone can use the same technique. It's a fair, level playing field.
i don’t think that’s likely 1. yiheng isnt too good at 4x4 and he hasnt improved that much over the past year compared to 2x2 where early last year he already had some mid 1 averages 2. planning does not help as much on 4x4 3. sliding does not work on 4x4 4. above a certain amount of tps does not work on 4x4 5. 4x4 is much less algorithm-based 6. max park is cracked
China doesn’t bother with 4x4 it seems, as of right now they’re focused on trying to dominate 3x3 Half of the top 10 3x3 averages in the world are from Chinese kids. In 4x4, there is one, and it’s Ruihang, so he’s not even part of the cubing revolution.
I like when you say that people will have a better time without getting better at the event...but this is the event ! If anybody can train and achieve the same result, it's part of the game. It's like saying that lubing and setting up the cube, having 120 magnets in it, using a coating or those small pouchs used to warm up or remove the sweat is unfair just because it wasnt used 10 years ago.
A couple things to note. Sliding is undoubtedly an illegal technique that will result in a +4 if caught by the judge. The key phrase here is caught by the judge. The way sliding starts look make it almost impossible to tell in real time if it was a legal start, which makes frame counting solves the only reliable way to tell. The WRC has a precedent about disallowing frame by frame analysis for timer starts. This means unless it is caught by the judge in real time (which sliding starts are hard to do) you can’t retroactively +4 the solves. People in the WRC are currently discussing the matter, and have stated you should NOT attempt sliding starts as they ARE illegal. I know I will certainly be looking out for the technique from now on as a judge.
I'm sure WRC is well aware perhaps 25% of judges are also first-timers at most comps, and we all started there, focused mainly on calling out 8 seconds. Even as a seasoned competitor, I'm not sure I would detect a sliding start.
FWIW judging sliding starts in real time are problematic because you need to actually establish that the slide results in an illegal start. Also I do have suspicions that Yiheng's time malfunctioned and was detecting input without contact (yes I have seen this failure mode on a gen 4 before).
@@maxxiong There are other videos of Yiheng doing this kind of start in other averages and getting the same results (~0 difference between his recorded time and solving time, which shouldn't be possible)
Do the rules state that the cube must be a set distance away from the timing mechanism? If not, then I don't see an issue with sliding as long as it can be shown the clock started before hands touched the cube. However if there is a distance the cube needs to be from the timer, then sliding seems a bit of a suspect way to get around that distance requirement.
This should be fine. Its like having the timer count the solve time more correctly. The time shown would be closer to how much time you spent to solve it
So I could slide my hands off the timer to accommodate for the rules, but keep my forearms on it to prevent it from starting, solve the cube, and get a negative time.
4:10 Moreover, judges usually don't even look at you when you start, they look at the stopwatch (which IMO is a mistake), so you could abuse it even further.
sliding or no sliding, some will have an advantage over others because of physical traits they were born with, so someone's always gonna feel cheated. having time pads under the cube is the only solution
Since this technique exploits flaws in the equipment used to start the timer, the community has to decide if this fits within the spirit of what they're trying to speedrun (i.e., executing the turns necessary to solve the cube) and how important it is to maintain this spirit. Then the rules or the equipment will have to be updated according to what the community values. This is a similar sort of discussion that leads to new categories in many videogame speedruns, especially those that have been rendered almost unrecognizable through stuff like arbitrary code execution or extremely heavy use of glitches, where it can be argued that this is no longer playing the game. But at the end of the day, this totally depends on what the community values in their competition, since the rules are ultimately arbitrary.
@hughjass3184 they're not, I just tried it and they're really hard, if the stops could be 2 pad that would be a very viable solution though I think. (ryan pilat talked about this in WCA forum sliding discussion I think it's a great idea)
One of the problems with the stops is that it prevents you from pulling your hand away quickly after the stop to not somehow touch the cube by accident. We need larger thumb pads at least.
Easily solved. Resistance capacitors - the kind cell phones use to read fingerprints - in the timer and mat. So if the cube is moved while the capacitor detects X resistance (i.e. a conductive object i.e. hand) is within X range of the timer as well as the mat it would be 'sliding' - particularly if the cube moves prior to X resistance achieved in the timer it disqualifies the move. But, honestly, this is all merely more efficient movement and it's on the judging panel to factor it in more than the players 'stop' using a more efficient hand motion.
Measure the time using the cube? I know GAN has a Bluetooth cube. Surely, the cube could signal when the first move started to eliminate sliding completely. Time the solve from first movement or when it's picked up, not when your hands leave the pad.
Just straight up, this needs to not be a thing. I know that there are several drawbacks to trying to enforce proper timer starts, but the sanctity of the results should be the most important thing here, and sliding starts explicitly break the rules. The WCA’s vision is to see speedcubing as more of a sport and less of a hobby (which is a whole Nother matter) but when even addressing this problem is controversial, it’s hard to take the WCA seriously.
1:02 it is commonly and almost systematicly abused by not puting the fingers on the timer and instead using the palm. Usually without intent of unfair advantage, usually without even an unfair advantage. And puting the cube that close is allowed, but it's super awkward tk grab it.
Yeah the reason you can get negative times is becouse if you look at some yihengs solve you can see that he is doing the first move and the timer still shows 0.000
The thing is, even if he didn't slide. If you add the 0.15s to his 2x2 time, he'd only be 0.01s away from being #1. You can't call him a cheater, if when you remove the "cheats" he's still better than everyone. To give people context in how insane this is: This is the WR average, which means he has to do solve it (correct me if I'm wrong) 5 times. And then they average it out (seems like they also get rid of the fastest and slowest solves, to get rid of anomalies). This is Wang's solves: 0.74 0.70 0.97 0.78 0.81 This is the previous #1's: 0.84 2.69 0.71 1.04 0.88 Remember, the best and worst ones are removed from the average calculation, so really it's more like: Wang: 0.74 0.78 0.81 Former #1: 0.84 1.04 0.88 Do you not know how insane that is? Every single solve Wang did, was better than every single solve the previous #1 did.
The WCA should remove this record because of 2 rules about starting: 1) You need to start with your fingers and 2) your palms need to be facing down on the side of the competitor. Sliding move your fingers to the point they aren't touching the surface of the timer and your palms are now on the timer, and not at your side. Solution to prevent this: switch to 4-pad in all events. We will be fine.
Easy to stop, put a low barrier just in front of the timer. High enough to not be able to slide over and still keep pressure on the palm timing pad. Which makes the competitor lift their hands to reach the cube. If they find a way to beat that. Then make the timer a two switch timer. Pressure on the finger barrier (forward pressure) and the palm pads (downward pressure) as soon as one switch is released the timer starts. Or if that’s too hard. Make the distance from the front edge to the palm switch to the cube 1.5 to 2 times the competitors hand span. If you have big hands it’s further away but the distance is still 1.5 to 2 your hand span making it equal for all competitors.
if you want to prevent this you could put a short barrier between the timer and the cube so solvers have to lift their hands up and over it to reach the cube instead of being able to slide directly forwards. you could also switch to timers that start when the cube is picked up and put down, instead. this would mean that all future times will be faster than past records but would reduce the impact of non-solving hand movement across the board
For wondering what it'd be like if you add the 0.15s to his average 2x2 time, he'd only be 0.01s away from being #1. Which you might think is still impressive, but in reality everyone in the leaderboard are all like 0.02s away from each other. Of course him being #2 is still impressive, but there's a difference between being 0.01s behind the #1 and... 0.14s ahead of the #1. 0.14s is the difference between #5 and #24. This is why sliding is such a game changer.
why doesnt anyone talk about the delay between the timer and the display, like him sliding is noticable but it is actually not a 0.1 s difference. if you watch the end of solves frame by frame one of them shoved 0.67 when yiheng touched the timer but the solve ended up being 0.78 so there is about 0.1s delay between the display and the timer
The problem I have with sliding is that it is possible to do turns in inspection before the timer starts (this can be seen in one of the solves of Yihengs at home 0.71 average), which means that times and records could be irrelevant. Like if I have a time of say 0.49, but then frame by frame shows that I held the cube for at least 0.55 seconds, did I really solve the cube in 0.49 seconds? Does my time mean anything?
He did that on the first solve of the 0.78 average already. His time spent solving was literally longer than the recorded time, so he was for sure doing turns while the timer wasn't running
As a non-cuber I think the most easy solution to the issue is to have a rule that the cube has to be in a given spot a defined distance away from the timer so that it impossible to grab the cube before letting go of the timer.
This is a great video that really well explains sliding, but you shouldn’t be acting like it’s legal, and encouraging people to slide until the WRC releases an official statement. There have been delegates saying it allowed, and others who say it’s completely illegal so it’s probably not the best idea to tell everyone it’s legal until a statement is released.
If it's not explicitly in the rules that it's illegal, then it's legal. And really can't be deemed illegal until a relevant statement clarifying the rules is released by the authorising body or the rules are amended.
@@evanbriggs443 it’s sort of a complex issue. The regs say you can’t start with your wrists or it’s a +2/DNF j don’t really remember. However, the precedent has been that frame by frame analysis is not considered a legitimate way to prove a timer start/ stop is bad. There has been a quite recent case of a cuber doing slick turns in inspection (not noticeable at all in real time). However, once the cubers videos were slowed down people could see him hiding turns in inspection. This cuber got banned for 2.5 years based on proof that was from analyzing his solves frame by frame. I would also like to mention that there isn’t a clear rule that says frame by frame analysis is not a legitimate way to prove a start/ stop is bad. The only reason this is the case, is because of previous incidents regarding stops/ starts looking fine in real time but in reality being bad.
I think this is more of a problem with how we do timers. Maybe in a future we can have internal timers small enough that it doesn't affect the feel of the cube. Or for cheaper sensor on the table it self but that would still be more expensive that what we have today.
It seems like better technology might be needed soon. Like something that detects contact with the cube itself. What if a slider is still touching the StackMat when they pick up the cube? How is a judge meant to tell when it might happen for only a fraction of a second?
If they make a timer with a button that is also a roller then they can only lift straight up if the button triggers an alert if the roller spins at all.
i wonder what the scores in the leaderboard would look like if they were retimed where it starts the moment the hands make contact with the cube and ends when the cube is in a solved state. however the cameras are probably do not record more than 60 frames a second so it wouldn’t be completely accurate
They should also add a blind over the cube, and removing it only after the timer starts. Being able to see and analyze the orientation beforehand is a significent advantage.
it should not be legal at all. going by the same logic, you could literally already just put your hand closer to the cube, no need to slide. oh but guess what? thats bannable sliding is the same thing but adding motion to it. theres no reason why this should be deemed legal by WCA its literally breaking the rules
Speed stacks need to be updated so that they vibrate and/or beep to signal a start after a random amount of time with the fingers contacting the pads. They can program them so that there is a minimum required time discrepancy between hearing/feeling the beep or vibration signaling the start, and the fingers leaving the pads. Or, the better solution in my opinion is to have a device that the cube rests on that records the moment that the cube leaves the surface. It shouldn’t be hard to do these days; maybe it would require a thin, electrically conductive sticker to be placed on the white center cap for example.
Build the timer into the cube with wireless reset controls and rotation sensors to start it, you scramble, hit the remote's timer reset button, then as soon as you start turning any axis the timer starts
@@Harold-Saxon I mean my earbuds are literally just the bud, it doesn't take a crazy amount of space, especially for peak competition levels where they're likely spending big money on cubes anyway?
@@Harold-Saxon I mean I feel like the design has come a long way since the original with specific tasks in mind to allow for the speeds but it's not crazy to think of adapting it differently to allow for a slightly larger center. It could also be inductive charged I would think. The module doesn't necessarily have to be exclusively in the center either, it could be one module per face and 5 of them communicate with the 6th "leader" module that's what pairs up to the phone or whatever.
First time seeing this type of content. I guess the RUclips algorithm is mysterious. Anyway, could the timer build into the cube solve this? I would think two components-capacitive touch (and maybe an accelerometer) would be a good start. I don’t see the point of having a start position anyway. As a spectator, having it count with the first touch sounds good enough. With this, only the time the cube is manipulated is counted.
Hey…crazy idea…how about we stop including the time taken to move your hands, and you simply record starting the moment they touch the cube to the moment they drop it?
Frame counting at 30fps is very flawed, if you miss the 1st and last frame, you can have a 0.06666 second error, which is huge of course. Videos need to be 120+fps (ideally 240+) and then frame counting can become a thing.
This has a very straight forward solution. The timers need to be made robust against this. It's impossible to catch by naked eye so technology will have to step in.
this could be very easy to regulate... the cube must be at a certain distance from where the person put his/her hands... the older/taller you get, the more distance the cube will be... i think thats a good idea
Delegates at my comp i had today mentioned this and had to announce it during 2x2: SLIDING IS ILLEGAL. You cannot make contact with the cube before the timer starts, and only your fingers are allowed to be on the stackmat to start the timer, ending it is fine to use palm though. THIS MAKES SLIDING ILLEGAL, MEANING WHEN STUCUBE CHECKS THE REGS (no offense btw), HE MISSED THOSE RULES. SLIDING ISSUES A +4 PENALTY BECAUSE YOU ARE BREAKING 2 +2s
Why isn't the pad the cube sits on a scale, so the timer starts when it's actually picked up? (I know nothing about cubing or whatever the proper terminology is)
Idk I feel like easiest solution here is to add a reg for minimum distance a cube must be placed away from the timer at start. Fudging the timer upon solve is easier to see IMO.
0.78 + 0.15 (the supposed max time save) = 0.93. The previous WR average was 0.92. And idk if this is true but i have to assume hitting the 0.15 time save perfectly for every solve is probably pretty tough. It genuinely looks like the new WR is literally just the old WR but + nearly perfect sliding, meaning that it should still be as difficult as before to beat the WR. It's just sub 1 that's easier. If people were already having difficulties beating the old WR of 0.92, then this new WR is probably just as tough, if not tougher.
So I know nothing about this sport or the technology involved in the timer. However, it seems to me that a timer could be built that measures from the time the cube is lifted until the time the cube is set back down.
Change the format: Contestant press a button. Timer starts. A cover is lifted. You have six cubes. You hit the button to stop the timer when cubes are solved.
Hypothetically, could I (someone who can solve a 2x2 although slowly) just slide my hands off the timer but keep my forearms on it, my hands wouldn’t be on the timer, and I could technically solve the entire cube before starting the timer.
This is another reason for maybe introducing a weight sensitive mat. Let the moment the cube is lifted activate the timer and when it hits the mat it stops (fumbles and accidental drops could be discounted by using a “lap times” setting so nothing needs resetting to record the final solve time). I don’t see it as cheating though. Learning to finesse the technology of the timer and interpreting the rules to your advantage is no different from pushing the technology of the cube with lubes, magnets, tensioning etc which are all legal yet can confer huge advantages over standard and/or unmodified cubes. “Fingers must be on the timer” leaves a lot of leeway. If the rules stipulated *fingertips* (or finger pads) must remain in contact with the timer before the solve starts, then sliding could be deemed illegal.
Except it’s not “fingers must be on the timer.” In the regulations it’s stated exactly as follows: A4) Starting the solve: - A4b) The competitor uses their fingers to touch the elevated sensor surfaces of the Stackmat timer. The competitor's palms must be facing down, and located on the side of the timer that is closer to the competitor. Penalty: time penalty (+2 seconds). ∗ A4b1) The competitor must have no physical contact with the puzzle while starting the solve. Penalty: time penalty (+2 seconds).
Honestly, if a time seems like it is wr it should be framecounted instead of using the stackmat time. Negative pickup times are ABSOLUTELY cheating, no matter how you twist it.
This can be solved reliably, but it would mean adopting new tech. Instead of using hand sensors, the cuber should have the cube revealed, then pick up to inspect, then set the cube back down on a pressure plate, prime the plate with a press of a button, then when the cube is lifted the timer starts. This would actually reduce times across the board for everybody and would completely avoid this whole need to learn this exploitable technique.
I don’t think he violates the regs that people are citing. He did start the timer with his palms facing down and fingers on the timer, and if it starts before he touches the cube then he hasn’t touched it while starting the timer. Also the rule about no physical contact “while starting the solve”makes no sense, how can you start to solve it if you can’t be touching it, when do you exit the “starting” phase. If it’s just talking about having to start the timer before touching it, then he doesn’t break the reg as long as it the timer starts before he actually touches it.
To give people context in how insane this is: This is the WR average, which means he has to do solve it (correct me if I'm wrong) 5 times. And then they average it out (seems like they also get rid of the fastest and slowest solves, to get rid of anomalies). This is Wang's solves: 0.74 0.70 0.97 0.78 0.81 This is the previous #1's: 0.84 2.69 0.71 1.04 0.88 Remember, the best and worst ones are removed from the average calculation, so really it's more like: Wang: 0.74 0.78 0.81 Former #1: 0.84 1.04 0.88 Do you not know how insane that is? Every single solve Wang did, was better than every single solve the previous #1 did.
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As many have brought up, it's also important to take into consideration the other part of section A4 (besides the rule against touching the cube whilst hands are on the timer):
A4b) The competitor uses their fingers to touch the elevated sensor surfaces of the timer. The competitor's palms must be facing down, and located on the side of the timer that is closer to the competitor. Penalty: time penalty (+2 seconds).
@hdjdshfjhfchfjkthat’s because this comment was 3 days ago, while the top comments are 2 weeks ago
So he should have got a +2?
there is a chinese saying "if you can cheat, then cheat"
this boy and a lot of china take that to heart...
I can’t wait for the next 2x2 WR single to be -0.37 Seconds
@ryneiscool thanks :)
0.37 isn’t that fast lol
@@TheAstronomicalCuberI said -0.37 not 0.37
@@TheAstronomicalCuber lets see you do it.
@@drushia3259 if i get lucky enough sure
I'm pretty sure there's a rule un the WCA regulations that proves this is not allowed:
A4) Starting the solve:
A4b) The competitor uses their -fingers- to touch the elevated sensor surfaces of the Stackmat timer. The competitor's palms must be facing down, and located on the side of the timer that is closer to the competitor. Penalty: time penalty (+2 seconds).
So you should have your fingers on the pad when starting the timer, sliding seems to me like you're using your fingers first, but at the end you're starting with the back of your hand (almost your wrist), which shouldn't be allowed.
Also, i've seen that sometimes Yiheng starts turning the cube before the timer started, which should also go against the rule that you can't touch the cube while starting the solve.
every sport is full of cheaters lately... and a lot are from china where they literally have a saying "if you can cheat then cheat" (loosely translated ofc)
Easily solved - move the cube 3" further away.
@@PositiveOnly-dm3rx nice strawman
Update timer. Have a mat measuring for downward pressure when cube lifted it starts and ends when cube dropped.
So inspection would be timed too?
@@jere1372 Yes you can do the timer any way required. I'm not familiar with the exact rules of competition. Basically, 1) Pickup to inspect starts 15sec inspection. 2) Put back down to register replaced. 3) Pickup to start official time. 4) Any registered touch back to mat ends timer. 5) Judges only required to monitor a) you place cube after inspection completely b) remove hands completely from cube.
This also means faster times as no movement towards cubes are counted removing the sliding on timer issue.
@@PaddyPower_IRLcould cause problems with one handed solves if they use the table, and also accidentally bumping the map while solving. Could probably just record every time when there's pressure and then pick the one that's correct
Or sense when the cube is lifted, so the electronics can declare a false start if the cube is lifted before the hands leave the pad.
times should realistically be first touch of cube to release of cube like the bigger issue is how solve times aren’t standardized
Might be expensive, but pressure sensors on the cube itself might actually be used to accurately time when you start holding it and letting go.
Could even be some magnetic signal type surfaces like those used in touch screens.
Looks like sliding is the new meta. I think it‘s a slippery slope.
10/10 pun work, very impressive 🫡
Everyone already doing it.
People just jealous of Yiheng so they're picking on him.
All the best times in the world have been pushing these boundaries.
@@J.J.J.J.J.J.J No, they haven't. People have compared the timer starts of top 2x2ers, and Yiheng/Ellery are clear outliers
@@cookierobber Ya and I've compared them to myself and others who go straight up and the top cubers become the outliers. So they are all taking advantage with their method, which is partly why they are best in the world. Depends on the sample you take. People are suddenly cherry picking who's times to assess. Do it yourself instead of spouting misinformation.
@@J.J.J.J.J.J.J There are plenty of examples of top 2x2ers to show that clearly not everyone is doing it. And it’s not about Yiheng, it’s about a level playing field for everyone and abiding by regulations. Ultimately it’s up to the WCA to change the regulations/allow sliding or make clear that it’s not ok and also enforce it, which is the trickiest part.
It's pretty clear cut for me, it breaks a couple of existing regs;
B2b) When using the Stackmat timer, the competitor uses their fingers to touch the elevated sensor surfaces of the timer. The competitor's palms must be facing down, and located on the side of the timer that is closer to them. Penalty: time penalty (+2 seconds).
A4b1) The competitor must have no physical contact with the puzzle while starting the solve. Penalty: time penalty (+2 seconds).
Kit Clement was on my stream on Thursday and said, in his opinion, the average shouldn't count and it's very clear cut based on those regs.
However... it wasn't possible to catch this in real time, and that's arguably the bigger issue. I predict an adjustment in the regs to make things a bit clearer and less open to abuse.
And if that's the case, the Ellery .53 should be binned too as that's an even more obvious abuse of the regs! I didn't know about that one, but seeing it now it's super sus!
Just my 2c lol, let's wait and see what happens. Also, another great vid, nice work 🙌
Yeah, great points. Overall it’s probably not legal if we’re looking at not only regs but just common sense. Have to wait and see tho
@@STUCUBE But isn't it better? since it more accurately represents the actual time that the cube is being solved? If they don't touch the cube before the timer starts, I feel that it makes sense.
bruv just allow sliding...
@@picklypt I agree it's more accurate as long as it can't be abused... I mean, what if you can do the whole solve with hands still on the timer and just lift and drop the hands mid-solve. It may be easy for delegates to detect on a recorded replay but a lot of judges would just write down the time, no questions asked.
@@solver5kThen video record all competition solves. It's 2024 now and everyone has a video camera in their pocket.
Yiheng's starts for sure break the regs. WRC precedent makes it problematic to actually *apply* the regs here, but starting the timer with your palms/wrists is clearly illegal (not to mention the 0.74 where he *started turning* before actually starting the timer)
It's frame perfect and frame perfect vid doesn't count in wca sunless it's seen in regular fps vid . Bro get your facts right
@@pixxxxxel3403 That's what I was talking about with WRC policy. It's *unambiguously* against the regs, but WRC has historically been lenient if it can't be caught in real time. That precedent was based on people who have *slightly sloppy* starts/stops tho, not people who are deliberately breaking the regs. It's a different situation and there's a reasonable argument to be made that the same precedent shouldn't apply here
Clearly illegal? The rules are pretty ambiguous to me. Nowhere does it say to let go of the sensor with your fingers
@@dan-bz7dz A4 covers starting the solve, and A4b specifies you must do so by touching the sensors with your fingers, with palms on your side of the timer
Maturity is when you realize that all of these are going to be nostalgic after 5-10 years when we start droping sub 0.50 second averages 💀
wouldnt say nostalgic, im not nostalgic for lucas's 4.90. it definitely has a weird feeling of that insane solve isnt even wr average holy shit, i remember that being groundbreaking though (also rip keaton ellis's wr)
it's like the hit game geometry dash and its community
maturity is when you realize the people cheat, and this kid did.
@@PositiveOnly-dm3rx you jelly? Yeah you jelly 😋
solution: make 4-pad mandatory, it won't be perfect, but it will definitely cut down the timesave by a very significant margin, as well as make sliding very difficult, thus making the problem not as severe
Some past records have used sliding though so they would have to DQ every single record that uses sliding and then switch and that would take a lot of analysis. Also, there is no way of verifying records without recordings.
I think that 4-pad should be mandatory as well tbh
4pad has a sliding hack that allows you to force an E1
i bet if they make 4-pad mandatory the entire cubing community is gonna genuinely flip out and a year later everyone will be fine with it, that's what happened with stacking lol
@@FireStriker_ nice job, stackmat company!
2:30 -
Part of the rules is that you cannot touch the timer with your palms when starting the timer, you have to use your fingers.
„A4) Starting the solve:
A4b) The competitor uses their fingers to touch the elevated sensor surfaces of the Stackmat timer. The competitor's palms must be facing down, and located on the side of the timer that is closer to the competitor. Penalty: time penalty (+2 seconds).
A4b1) The competitor must have no physical contact with the puzzle while starting the solve. Penalty: time penalty (+2 seconds).”
Yeah a lot of people have been mentioning this, it’s mostly gonna come down to the judge noticing it with the current regs we have in relation to framecouting. But that’s the main one now that I’m realizing will have to be looked into more
Yo tymon
THANK U tymon
hopefully the wca does regulate this and make a decision, whether by removing the average now or by making an announcement banning the technique
YES i reached the exact same conclusion
you _must_ start the timer with your figertips
slidig basically eliminates that, and you end up starting the timer with your palms/wrist anyways as a result
@@paper2222you probably wouldn't recognize me from this username, but I know you from like way back 2020/2021(?) in the colemak server. Just cool to see someone lol.
Oh man, good point about what the point is for self-filming. I suspect we'll see people privately film, but then not release them (I lost the footage in a boating accident).
I know man my dog at mine!!!
Seems reasonably legal as long as al the turning is done inside the timers timeframe, what's the point of counting picking up and putting down the cube as part of a solve?
Note* obviously it needs to be studied more and some changes will be required but as long as you don't get time " discrepancies " it seems like a reasonable technique that doesn't take part of the solve process
Get rid of the timer buttons. Have the cube sitting on a scale that starts the timer when the cube is removed.
I just kinda assumed that this was a Technique everyone was already doing. Why would you life your hands up instead of rushing straight for the cube/cups? Then logically you’d follow by attempting to keep pressure on the timer for as long as possible before touching the cube
Once Yiheng gets older with big hands he would end all competition, like Feliks basically. You’d strive for WR2.
Sliding removes the timing of the dead air between time start and cube start
As far as I am concerned time start and cube start should be the same
Sliding good
if the avg gets disqualified NOONE will post their wrs online...
noone will film there solves
@@sheeparefinetheire
@@rodrigoqteixeira ooga booga
It’s not even yihengs video
@@gegan0112 a few years ago there was a person who dindt want anyone to film his solves
there is only 1 vidio of him solving a 7x7
As long as the rules are clear, and applied consistently, then this isn't a problem. Everyone can use the same technique. It's a fair, level playing field.
I'm just waiting for yiheng to come out of no where and get the 4x4 world record...
I’m scared 😣
i don’t think that’s likely
1. yiheng isnt too good at 4x4 and he hasnt improved that much over the past year compared to 2x2 where early last year he already had some mid 1 averages
2. planning does not help as much on 4x4
3. sliding does not work on 4x4
4. above a certain amount of tps does not work on 4x4
5. 4x4 is much less algorithm-based
6. max park is cracked
China doesn’t bother with 4x4 it seems, as of right now they’re focused on trying to dominate 3x3
Half of the top 10 3x3 averages in the world are from Chinese kids. In 4x4, there is one, and it’s Ruihang, so he’s not even part of the cubing revolution.
"See some kids not only slide their way down the slide of the playground but also slide down to times faster than you" hits hard man...
I like when you say that people will have a better time without getting better at the event...but this is the event !
If anybody can train and achieve the same result, it's part of the game.
It's like saying that lubing and setting up the cube, having 120 magnets in it, using a coating or those small pouchs used to warm up or remove the sweat is unfair just because it wasnt used 10 years ago.
i knew it. It was his next video
A couple things to note. Sliding is undoubtedly an illegal technique that will result in a +4 if caught by the judge. The key phrase here is caught by the judge. The way sliding starts look make it almost impossible to tell in real time if it was a legal start, which makes frame counting solves the only reliable way to tell. The WRC has a precedent about disallowing frame by frame analysis for timer starts. This means unless it is caught by the judge in real time (which sliding starts are hard to do) you can’t retroactively +4 the solves. People in the WRC are currently discussing the matter, and have stated you should NOT attempt sliding starts as they ARE illegal. I know I will certainly be looking out for the technique from now on as a judge.
I'm sure WRC is well aware perhaps 25% of judges are also first-timers at most comps, and we all started there, focused mainly on calling out 8 seconds. Even as a seasoned competitor, I'm not sure I would detect a sliding start.
FWIW judging sliding starts in real time are problematic because you need to actually establish that the slide results in an illegal start.
Also I do have suspicions that Yiheng's time malfunctioned and was detecting input without contact (yes I have seen this failure mode on a gen 4 before).
@@maxxiong There are other videos of Yiheng doing this kind of start in other averages and getting the same results (~0 difference between his recorded time and solving time, which shouldn't be possible)
there is a saying in china. loosely translated it is "if you can cheat then do cheat"....
@@PositiveOnly-dm3rx copy+paste 🤡
That intro was FIRE 🔥
Thanks 🙏
fant
Do the rules state that the cube must be a set distance away from the timing mechanism? If not, then I don't see an issue with sliding as long as it can be shown the clock started before hands touched the cube. However if there is a distance the cube needs to be from the timer, then sliding seems a bit of a suspect way to get around that distance requirement.
6:12 this is crazy 😭
This should be fine. Its like having the timer count the solve time more correctly. The time shown would be closer to how much time you spent to solve it
I take 1 hour to do 1 face of the cube and TO THIS DAY I never finished it and this little man is doing it in 0.7 seconds…
Yiheng Wang is sliding into a new era.
of cheating...
The negative time... Is because he was touching the cube before the timer started...
So I could slide my hands off the timer to accommodate for the rules, but keep my forearms on it to prevent it from starting, solve the cube, and get a negative time.
@@vpexmcno, the books say it’s 2sec penalty
@@vpexmc😊
@@_TORN4D0_it's a dnf...
@@jere1372 2:36 it says +2
4:10 Moreover, judges usually don't even look at you when you start, they look at the stopwatch (which IMO is a mistake), so you could abuse it even further.
sliding or no sliding, some will have an advantage over others because of physical traits they were born with, so someone's always gonna feel cheated.
having time pads under the cube is the only solution
Since this technique exploits flaws in the equipment used to start the timer, the community has to decide if this fits within the spirit of what they're trying to speedrun (i.e., executing the turns necessary to solve the cube) and how important it is to maintain this spirit. Then the rules or the equipment will have to be updated according to what the community values.
This is a similar sort of discussion that leads to new categories in many videogame speedruns, especially those that have been rendered almost unrecognizable through stuff like arbitrary code execution or extremely heavy use of glitches, where it can be argued that this is no longer playing the game. But at the end of the day, this totally depends on what the community values in their competition, since the rules are ultimately arbitrary.
The easy solution to fix this problem is to use the new gen stackmat with thumb function right?
Yeah it’s just that stops are a little harder with it. I think Tymon did an ao1000 and got around his global average
@@STUCUBE sure the stops are a little harder but its the same for everyone and also you will get used to it once you practice these stops.
@hughjass3184 they're not, I just tried it and they're really hard, if the stops could be 2 pad that would be a very viable solution though I think. (ryan pilat talked about this in WCA forum sliding discussion I think it's a great idea)
@hughjass3184 No
One of the problems with the stops is that it prevents you from pulling your hand away quickly after the stop to not somehow touch the cube by accident.
We need larger thumb pads at least.
Easily solved. Resistance capacitors - the kind cell phones use to read fingerprints - in the timer and mat. So if the cube is moved while the capacitor detects X resistance (i.e. a conductive object i.e. hand) is within X range of the timer as well as the mat it would be 'sliding' - particularly if the cube moves prior to X resistance achieved in the timer it disqualifies the move.
But, honestly, this is all merely more efficient movement and it's on the judging panel to factor it in more than the players 'stop' using a more efficient hand motion.
Measure the time using the cube? I know GAN has a Bluetooth cube. Surely, the cube could signal when the first move started to eliminate sliding completely. Time the solve from first movement or when it's picked up, not when your hands leave the pad.
Just straight up, this needs to not be a thing. I know that there are several drawbacks to trying to enforce proper timer starts, but the sanctity of the results should be the most important thing here, and sliding starts explicitly break the rules.
The WCA’s vision is to see speedcubing as more of a sport and less of a hobby (which is a whole Nother matter) but when even addressing this problem is controversial, it’s hard to take the WCA seriously.
1:02 it is commonly and almost systematicly abused by not puting the fingers on the timer and instead using the palm. Usually without intent of unfair advantage, usually without even an unfair advantage. And puting the cube that close is allowed, but it's super awkward tk grab it.
Yeah the reason you can get negative times is becouse if you look at some yihengs solve you can see that he is doing the first move and the timer still shows 0.000
Simply because there is a very minor delay with the display. But once the timer is stopped it will display the correct time.
The thing is, even if he didn't slide.
If you add the 0.15s to his 2x2 time, he'd only be 0.01s away from being #1.
You can't call him a cheater, if when you remove the "cheats" he's still better than everyone.
To give people context in how insane this is:
This is the WR average, which means he has to do solve it (correct me if I'm wrong) 5 times. And then they average it out (seems like they also get rid of the fastest and slowest solves, to get rid of anomalies).
This is Wang's solves:
0.74 0.70 0.97 0.78 0.81
This is the previous #1's:
0.84 2.69 0.71 1.04 0.88
Remember, the best and worst ones are removed from the average calculation, so really it's more like:
Wang:
0.74 0.78 0.81
Former #1:
0.84 1.04 0.88
Do you not know how insane that is? Every single solve Wang did, was better than every single solve the previous #1 did.
The WCA should remove this record because of 2 rules about starting: 1) You need to start with your fingers and 2) your palms need to be facing down on the side of the competitor. Sliding move your fingers to the point they aren't touching the surface of the timer and your palms are now on the timer, and not at your side. Solution to prevent this: switch to 4-pad in all events. We will be fine.
Easy to stop, put a low barrier just in front of the timer. High enough to not be able to slide over and still keep pressure on the palm timing pad. Which makes the competitor lift their hands to reach the cube.
If they find a way to beat that. Then make the timer a two switch timer. Pressure on the finger barrier (forward pressure) and the palm pads (downward pressure) as soon as one switch is released the timer starts.
Or if that’s too hard.
Make the distance from the front edge to the palm switch to the cube 1.5 to 2 times the competitors hand span. If you have big hands it’s further away but the distance is still 1.5 to 2 your hand span making it equal for all competitors.
if you want to prevent this you could put a short barrier between the timer and the cube so solvers have to lift their hands up and over it to reach the cube instead of being able to slide directly forwards.
you could also switch to timers that start when the cube is picked up and put down, instead. this would mean that all future times will be faster than past records but would reduce the impact of non-solving hand movement across the board
Or switch the pad around so that the touched parts are behind the cube, not in front of it. Makes sliding impossible
For wondering what it'd be like if you add the 0.15s to his average 2x2 time, he'd only be 0.01s away from being #1.
Which you might think is still impressive, but in reality everyone in the leaderboard are all like 0.02s away from each other.
Of course him being #2 is still impressive, but there's a difference between being 0.01s behind the #1 and... 0.14s ahead of the #1.
0.14s is the difference between #5 and #24.
This is why sliding is such a game changer.
why doesnt anyone talk about the delay between the timer and the display, like him sliding is noticable but it is actually not a 0.1 s difference. if you watch the end of solves frame by frame one of them shoved 0.67 when yiheng touched the timer but the solve ended up being 0.78 so there is about 0.1s delay between the display and the timer
The problem I have with sliding is that it is possible to do turns in inspection before the timer starts (this can be seen in one of the solves of Yihengs at home 0.71 average), which means that times and records could be irrelevant. Like if I have a time of say 0.49, but then frame by frame shows that I held the cube for at least 0.55 seconds, did I really solve the cube in 0.49 seconds? Does my time mean anything?
Yes bro like I grinded to avg 1.2 but now everybody is using sliding
He did that on the first solve of the 0.78 average already. His time spent solving was literally longer than the recorded time, so he was for sure doing turns while the timer wasn't running
As a non-cuber I think the most easy solution to the issue is to have a rule that the cube has to be in a given spot a defined distance away from the timer so that it impossible to grab the cube before letting go of the timer.
0:41 This went harder than it should ngl
This is a great video that really well explains sliding, but you shouldn’t be acting like it’s legal, and encouraging people to slide until the WRC releases an official statement. There have been delegates saying it allowed, and others who say it’s completely illegal so it’s probably not the best idea to tell everyone it’s legal until a statement is released.
If it's not explicitly in the rules that it's illegal, then it's legal.
And really can't be deemed illegal until a relevant statement clarifying the rules is released by the authorising body or the rules are amended.
@@evanbriggs443 it’s sort of a complex issue. The regs say you can’t start with your wrists or it’s a +2/DNF j don’t really remember. However, the precedent has been that frame by frame analysis is not considered a legitimate way to prove a timer start/ stop is bad. There has been a quite recent case of a cuber doing slick turns in inspection (not noticeable at all in real time). However, once the cubers videos were slowed down people could see him hiding turns in inspection. This cuber got banned for 2.5 years based on proof that was from analyzing his solves frame by frame. I would also like to mention that there isn’t a clear rule that says frame by frame analysis is not a legitimate way to prove a start/ stop is bad. The only reason this is the case, is because of previous incidents regarding stops/ starts looking fine in real time but in reality being bad.
I think this is more of a problem with how we do timers. Maybe in a future we can have internal timers small enough that it doesn't affect the feel of the cube. Or for cheaper sensor on the table it self but that would still be more expensive that what we have today.
It seems like better technology might be needed soon. Like something that detects contact with the cube itself. What if a slider is still touching the StackMat when they pick up the cube? How is a judge meant to tell when it might happen for only a fraction of a second?
Dude this is crazy
AND COOL
your video quality is incredible
Agree
Agreed + yours too
If they make a timer with a button that is also a roller then they can only lift straight up if the button triggers an alert if the roller spins at all.
i wonder what the scores in the leaderboard would look like if they were retimed where it starts the moment the hands make contact with the cube and ends when the cube is in a solved state. however the cameras are probably do not record more than 60 frames a second so it wouldn’t be completely accurate
They should also add a blind over the cube, and removing it only after the timer starts. Being able to see and analyze the orientation beforehand is a significent advantage.
it should not be legal at all.
going by the same logic, you could literally already just put your hand closer to the cube, no need to slide. oh but guess what? thats bannable
sliding is the same thing but adding motion to it. theres no reason why this should be deemed legal by WCA
its literally breaking the rules
Just regulate the timers and make the slopes go the other way, or something to the shape that stops this.
Speed stacks need to be updated so that they vibrate and/or beep to signal a start after a random amount of time with the fingers contacting the pads. They can program them so that there is a minimum required time discrepancy between hearing/feeling the beep or vibration signaling the start, and the fingers leaving the pads. Or, the better solution in my opinion is to have a device that the cube rests on that records the moment that the cube leaves the surface. It shouldn’t be hard to do these days; maybe it would require a thin, electrically conductive sticker to be placed on the white center cap for example.
Except WSSA regulations specifically allow the competitor to hold their hands on the timer as long as they want
Build the timer into the cube with wireless reset controls and rotation sensors to start it, you scramble, hit the remote's timer reset button, then as soon as you start turning any axis the timer starts
Would be impractical as cubes have VERY little space on the interior to implement such device
@@Harold-Saxon I mean my earbuds are literally just the bud, it doesn't take a crazy amount of space, especially for peak competition levels where they're likely spending big money on cubes anyway?
@@BlazingSun72 have you seen speedcubing cube from the inside? If so you should know how impossible is the task of installing such device
@@Harold-Saxon I mean I feel like the design has come a long way since the original with specific tasks in mind to allow for the speeds but it's not crazy to think of adapting it differently to allow for a slightly larger center. It could also be inductive charged I would think. The module doesn't necessarily have to be exclusively in the center either, it could be one module per face and 5 of them communicate with the 6th "leader" module that's what pairs up to the phone or whatever.
Epic videos man. Took a little break from cubing and came up to this. more inspired than ever.
whats the name of the first music piece of this video? the only music mentioend in the desc is lemmino
I wonder how much the times are going to be cut down with sliding in 1x1 events 🤔
First time seeing this type of content. I guess the RUclips algorithm is mysterious. Anyway, could the timer build into the cube solve this? I would think two components-capacitive touch (and maybe an accelerometer) would be a good start. I don’t see the point of having a start position anyway. As a spectator, having it count with the first touch sounds good enough. With this, only the time the cube is manipulated is counted.
1:51 The time shown on screen here, is 0.0004, which is four ten-thousandths of a second, instead of the stated four thousandths.
Hey…crazy idea…how about we stop including the time taken to move your hands, and you simply record starting the moment they touch the cube to the moment they drop it?
It really just depends on whether you think the time spent not touching the cube OR the timer is important to the final time.
Frame counting at 30fps is very flawed, if you miss the 1st and last frame, you can have a 0.06666 second error, which is huge of course. Videos need to be 120+fps (ideally 240+) and then frame counting can become a thing.
devs need to update the game this new slidding meta is broken
This has a very straight forward solution. The timers need to be made robust against this. It's impossible to catch by naked eye so technology will have to step in.
Need new tech to change the timer to start on cube pickup and then end on the double tap. That way everyone is on the same playing field
this could be very easy to regulate... the cube must be at a certain distance from where the person put his/her hands... the older/taller you get, the more distance the cube will be... i think thats a good idea
Just wondering whether people use the same methodology to analyze solves from other people's, and what are the results
Delegates at my comp i had today mentioned this and had to announce it during 2x2: SLIDING IS ILLEGAL. You cannot make contact with the cube before the timer starts, and only your fingers are allowed to be on the stackmat to start the timer, ending it is fine to use palm though. THIS MAKES SLIDING ILLEGAL, MEANING WHEN STUCUBE CHECKS THE REGS (no offense btw), HE MISSED THOSE RULES. SLIDING ISSUES A +4 PENALTY BECAUSE YOU ARE BREAKING 2 +2s
If you can't touch the cube while holding the timer, then shouldn't negative pickup time runs be disqualified? It seems like a risky strategy to me.
Why isn't the pad the cube sits on a scale, so the timer starts when it's actually picked up? (I know nothing about cubing or whatever the proper terminology is)
Idk I feel like easiest solution here is to add a reg for minimum distance a cube must be placed away from the timer at start. Fudging the timer upon solve is easier to see IMO.
0.78 + 0.15 (the supposed max time save) = 0.93. The previous WR average was 0.92. And idk if this is true but i have to assume hitting the 0.15 time save perfectly for every solve is probably pretty tough. It genuinely looks like the new WR is literally just the old WR but + nearly perfect sliding, meaning that it should still be as difficult as before to beat the WR. It's just sub 1 that's easier. If people were already having difficulties beating the old WR of 0.92, then this new WR is probably just as tough, if not tougher.
6:12 Nice segway... 😜
The first transition is so cool.
So I know nothing about this sport or the technology involved in the timer. However, it seems to me that a timer could be built that measures from the time the cube is lifted until the time the cube is set back down.
Has there been any discussion on four-pad timers such as the StackMat G5?
Curious to see how this will help with other rush events if at all
Solution: Maybe place the cube on a pedestal of some sorts (basically so that the the cube is higher than the palms)?
petition for more comprehensible titles
Change the format:
Contestant press a button. Timer starts. A cover is lifted. You have six cubes. You hit the button to stop the timer when cubes are solved.
Hey man what's the intro music you used?
Hypothetically, could I (someone who can solve a 2x2 although slowly) just slide my hands off the timer but keep my forearms on it, my hands wouldn’t be on the timer, and I could technically solve the entire cube before starting the timer.
The timer slide has turned into a technique, shouldwe should all implement it in our solves? Or would we be abusing it?
I would say once the WCA makes some kind of statement and doesn’t call it an illegal technique it’s completely fine to do it
Makes sense
such a high quality vid... Keep up the great content!
Dude, every single video is a masterpiece of content. I love your chanel men, real
This is another reason for maybe introducing a weight sensitive mat. Let the moment the cube is lifted activate the timer and when it hits the mat it stops (fumbles and accidental drops could be discounted by using a “lap times” setting so nothing needs resetting to record the final solve time).
I don’t see it as cheating though. Learning to finesse the technology of the timer and interpreting the rules to your advantage is no different from pushing the technology of the cube with lubes, magnets, tensioning etc which are all legal yet can confer huge advantages over standard and/or unmodified cubes.
“Fingers must be on the timer” leaves a lot of leeway. If the rules stipulated *fingertips* (or finger pads) must remain in contact with the timer before the solve starts, then sliding could be deemed illegal.
Except it’s not “fingers must be on the timer.”
In the regulations it’s stated exactly as follows:
A4) Starting the solve:
- A4b) The competitor uses their fingers to touch the elevated sensor surfaces of the Stackmat timer. The competitor's palms must be facing down, and located on the side of the timer that is closer to the competitor. Penalty: time penalty (+2 seconds).
∗ A4b1) The competitor must have no physical contact with the puzzle while starting the solve. Penalty: time penalty (+2 seconds).
@@Cuboctus you’re right, but it doesn’t really alter the point: “uses fingers…on…the…timer” is vague enough anatomically for arguments to ensue.
Honestly, if a time seems like it is wr it should be framecounted instead of using the stackmat time. Negative pickup times are ABSOLUTELY cheating, no matter how you twist it.
Why would the timer not be from the moment the cube is picked up to the moment it's down? This seems pretty easy to solve.
This can be solved reliably, but it would mean adopting new tech. Instead of using hand sensors, the cuber should have the cube revealed, then pick up to inspect, then set the cube back down on a pressure plate, prime the plate with a press of a button, then when the cube is lifted the timer starts. This would actually reduce times across the board for everybody and would completely avoid this whole need to learn this exploitable technique.
I don’t think he violates the regs that people are citing. He did start the timer with his palms facing down and fingers on the timer, and if it starts before he touches the cube then he hasn’t touched it while starting the timer.
Also the rule about no physical contact “while starting the solve”makes no sense, how can you start to solve it if you can’t be touching it, when do you exit the “starting” phase. If it’s just talking about having to start the timer before touching it, then he doesn’t break the reg as long as it the timer starts before he actually touches it.
To give people context in how insane this is:
This is the WR average, which means he has to do solve it (correct me if I'm wrong) 5 times. And then they average it out (seems like they also get rid of the fastest and slowest solves, to get rid of anomalies).
This is Wang's solves:
0.74 0.70 0.97 0.78 0.81
This is the previous #1's:
0.84 2.69 0.71 1.04 0.88
Remember, the best and worst ones are removed from the average calculation, so really it's more like:
Wang:
0.74 0.78 0.81
Former #1:
0.84 1.04 0.88
Do you not know how insane that is? Every single solve Wang did, was better than every single solve the previous #1 did.
I have no idea how I got here, but thank you for the new rabbit hole to fall down.
Just add another StackMat sensor under to cube to start the time, remove pick up time and make it equal for everbody.