Him canceling the extractors is a well known trick: the "extractor trick" it allows him to build two more drones when he's supply blocked (building a building like an extractor temporary reduces your supply count as zerg and then you get your drone back when you cancel). It's used in builds like the 15-15 build or used to correct for forgetting an overlord. In this game I think he was trying to get out an early spawning pool / hatchery while still building drones and not losing larva. It's a little less economic than just building a 13 overlord but potentially allows earlier pool and / or hatchery which can be useful for early queens against reaper or hiding an early ling rush, or getting hatchery out before protoss can block your expansion which they typically do for adept builds so your bases are further apart when you take your 3rd as your natural so it's harder to chase when they shade between bases. Or if it was done to correct a mistake, it's slightly better than being completely supply blocked and letting 3 larva build up (where you obviously will lose larva for every second that you have 3 already spawned at a single base) but worse than just not forgetting to build the overlord in the first place. All that to say, he was likely doing that intentionally -- even though he loses money from the cancel he gets an extra drone or two slightly earlier and prevents any larva caps.
Notice when he canceled the drones his supply was 16/14. Then the overlord immediately popped, so I think in this case he forgot to build his 13 overlord on time and was trying to mitigate the impact of that.
I want to say that I really like the setup you reach at 8:38 in the video: three bases, five racks, factory&starportz, upgrades going. Your mechanics are good and your macro general goal is in place. Slowly we will fix your early build order to make it more efficient and reach earlier that setup. Let's legalize stimpack! :D :D
Thanks man, that’s really cool to hear. I use stimpacks? I know I forget to hit the button from time to time, but I challenge you to go back to episode 20 ish, I don’t think I’m using stim even there 😅
Nice game. 😊 I think it's time ..... time to utilize that number three button. 😉 So you kept pulling back your entire army, so I highly recommend putting your main army in the number 3 slot, since you never use those 2 SCVs again for anything besides putting them in gas. Another thing you can keep in mind is, like with this situation you wanted the vikings to go deal with the mutas. One way to split them off is using the all army key, find the vikings down in the middle area of the HUD, then Ctrl-clikk a viking down there to select only the vikings and send them back. And while you have them selected, you might aswell put them in control group 4. That way it's easier to find them again. 😊
You know, I actually got okay at this towards the end of last season (because I filmed a load of episodes over a few days), but coming back I’ve gotten lazy. This is at the top of my priority list
There's great videos by PiG on youtube that adresses hotkeys that you could check out, from his Bronze to GM series. It would take too long to type it out in these here comments section. 😂 Look them up on his other channel "PiG Coaching". Find the first episode for terran of the newest guide (2023 ones I believe).
Yeah I’ve seen it a couple of times and it get recommended a lot. I hate that just watching videos isn’t how I learn, I’m more about practise, trial, error, correction, that’s just my learning style
@@Voidspacealpha it's the same with me. Sure, you can watch videos and get an idea on how you can do stuff better and why you do it .... until I actually start to do them, is when it starts to sit with me .... and even then I keep forgetting things. 🤣🤣
honestly it's... almost fine? Roachhydra is a composition, and transitioning to lurkers is like the most sensible thing to do after especially if you got missle upgrades and not melee ones. Mutas were weird tho.
What you want is units that go well together. That's the composition variations you want, not just unit variations. 😊 He was kinda alittle all over the place, which made him lose harder.
Vikings are pretty bad vs mutas. You want a turret in each mineral line. The mutas can't out DPS your repairing SCVs, at least not without taking heavy losses. Even if they kill SCVs, mutas need to survive. They cost 100/100. A siege tank is 150/125. You can also research building armor in the engineering bay to fend off mutas but it's better to get infantry upgrades first. Against lurkers, I recommend tanks or liberators. You seem to like Vikings so I'll explain their use in TVZ. Vikings are usually a late game unit in this match up. If you make bio, Vikings are usually prefered but Thors can fill a similar role while also being really good vs mutas, though you could just beat them with plain marines. Vikings can fight off Brood lords and Corruptors which are popular late game. Corruptors will actually beat Vikings but Vikings have the range to force Corruptors to fight near your marines and ghosts (late game very good). They also counter Vipers but there's a risk of them getting hit with a fungal from an infestor and a parasitic bomb which shreds them. You have to space them out against Vipers.
Totally get that. Thanks for the breakdown of what vs what. Very useful. Let me atleast explain why I built a few vikings this game. I played a game recently, where I managed to get 8/10 vikings behind the Zerg base and just eat all of his overlords. It caused a supply block of me taking his supply down form say a limit of 180 to 55. From there I was able to attack, and even trading really poorly, I can out produce and keep the pressure on to win. That’s what was happening in my head, in this game, not so much
@@Voidspacealpha Sniping Overlords can be pretty strong but you have a very small window to make it work. If you supply block the Zerg, you still have Vikings which take up a lot of supply and resources that could’ve been marines or thors. Vikings are pretty good if you’re fighting late game Zerg but grounded Vikings are deadweight. You should also keep most of them alive because they’re really expensive. For this to work, you would have to kill enough overlords that the supply you used on Vikings is mitigated by the amount of supply the Zerg lost. The Zerg can counter this by moving the overlords over queens which ignore F2. You have a small window of time here to snipe as many slow overlords as you can before they move over queens. Even here, you would have to win the main fight because the Zerg army will still exist so if it’s an even fight, the Zerg will come out ahead because you have less supply of effective army. If you lose this fight, you would have to remake army while the Zerg can remake overlords pretty quickly. Terrans losing fights can be game ending because Terran has very slow production. The best situation this could work in is late game where you need Vikings to fight Brood lords or Vipers. Here, if there’s a break in the fighting you can take a few to go hunt overlords, but the issue here is that corrupters are much faster so there’s a high chance they won’t escape.
I have not played this map, but I think I would move 16 SCVs from the main to the natural as soon as the natural is built to take advantage of the gold minerals. SCVs built after that would be rallied to the main.
You know, every time I’ve seen someone do this, they’ve lost. There’s a match on this channel from recently where the opponent did just that. Do you think it’s still worth doing?
So last season I was ranked silver by the end. This season it let me play 1 game, and before I even did the other 2 ranking games put me in bronze 2. People have commented saying there’s some kind of ranking bug
3:16 - that marine popped out on the other side and died. Rip. 11:14 - and this is why you dont F2 all the time. you just straight up can't deal with mutas coz you have no control groups. Also those "ravagers" are lurkers, ravagers look more similar to roaches and have flamy-thingies. Also you forgot the second engibay. Other than that and maybe overbuilding supply depots at some points while not building them consistently in general - good game!
Yeah I was saying Rangers knowing full well in my mind I meant lurkers (Zerg seige tanks). My bad. This is why I’m a terrible caster, especially when I’m trying to cast myself in the moment 😅
Hey, usually i say no to this kind of thing, because its not the way i learn, however you've caught me in an okay mood. Drop me a message on Discord, i think i might be up for doing this and potentially making a video about if it helped or not.
the reason the zerg built those two extractors was so he could get 2 more drones then cancel the extractors and have +2 over his max supply
Ahhh okay, that makes more sense
Him canceling the extractors is a well known trick: the "extractor trick" it allows him to build two more drones when he's supply blocked (building a building like an extractor temporary reduces your supply count as zerg and then you get your drone back when you cancel). It's used in builds like the 15-15 build or used to correct for forgetting an overlord. In this game I think he was trying to get out an early spawning pool / hatchery while still building drones and not losing larva.
It's a little less economic than just building a 13 overlord but potentially allows earlier pool and / or hatchery which can be useful for early queens against reaper or hiding an early ling rush, or getting hatchery out before protoss can block your expansion which they typically do for adept builds so your bases are further apart when you take your 3rd as your natural so it's harder to chase when they shade between bases. Or if it was done to correct a mistake, it's slightly better than being completely supply blocked and letting 3 larva build up (where you obviously will lose larva for every second that you have 3 already spawned at a single base) but worse than just not forgetting to build the overlord in the first place.
All that to say, he was likely doing that intentionally -- even though he loses money from the cancel he gets an extra drone or two slightly earlier and prevents any larva caps.
Notice when he canceled the drones his supply was 16/14. Then the overlord immediately popped, so I think in this case he forgot to build his 13 overlord on time and was trying to mitigate the impact of that.
Ahhhh, this makes way more sense. Thanks man. Eye opener
GG! That was really satisfying to watch.
Thanks man. Really glad you enjoyed watching
I want to say that I really like the setup you reach at 8:38 in the video: three bases, five racks, factory&starportz, upgrades going. Your mechanics are good and your macro general goal is in place. Slowly we will fix your early build order to make it more efficient and reach earlier that setup. Let's legalize stimpack! :D :D
Thanks man, that’s really cool to hear.
I use stimpacks?
I know I forget to hit the button from time to time, but I challenge you to go back to episode 20 ish, I don’t think I’m using stim even there 😅
Nice game. 😊
I think it's time ..... time to utilize that number three button. 😉
So you kept pulling back your entire army, so I highly recommend putting your main army in the number 3 slot, since you never use those 2 SCVs again for anything besides putting them in gas.
Another thing you can keep in mind is, like with this situation you wanted the vikings to go deal with the mutas. One way to split them off is using the all army key, find the vikings down in the middle area of the HUD, then Ctrl-clikk a viking down there to select only the vikings and send them back.
And while you have them selected, you might aswell put them in control group 4. That way it's easier to find them again. 😊
You know, I actually got okay at this towards the end of last season (because I filmed a load of episodes over a few days), but coming back I’ve gotten lazy.
This is at the top of my priority list
There's great videos by PiG on youtube that adresses hotkeys that you could check out, from his Bronze to GM series. It would take too long to type it out in these here comments section. 😂
Look them up on his other channel "PiG Coaching". Find the first episode for terran of the newest guide (2023 ones I believe).
Yeah I’ve seen it a couple of times and it get recommended a lot.
I hate that just watching videos isn’t how I learn, I’m more about practise, trial, error, correction, that’s just my learning style
@@Voidspacealpha it's the same with me. Sure, you can watch videos and get an idea on how you can do stuff better and why you do it .... until I actually start to do them, is when it starts to sit with me .... and even then I keep forgetting things. 🤣🤣
It’s very reassuring to hear I’m not alone in the struggle 😂❤️
honestly you did pretty good that game but the zerg didn't know what he wanted to do, he went roaches, hydras, lurkers and mootahs
honestly it's... almost fine? Roachhydra is a composition, and transitioning to lurkers is like the most sensible thing to do after especially if you got missle upgrades and not melee ones. Mutas were weird tho.
I thought he had quite a varied army composition akin to someone playing Terran, which impressed me, but I’m not super experienced, so it’s all good
What you want is units that go well together. That's the composition variations you want, not just unit variations. 😊
He was kinda alittle all over the place, which made him lose harder.
Ahhh okay fair point
You may try "leaving your league" which is a button somewhere in the menus which may then put you in your proper league.
oh dude i didnt even know this was a thing, i'm going to give it a go right now.
@@Voidspacealpha It's under profile, then click on your ladder and it's at the bottom right. Not sure if it will work but worth a try.
Gave it a go, got ranked exactly the same 😅
Vikings are pretty bad vs mutas. You want a turret in each mineral line. The mutas can't out DPS your repairing SCVs, at least not without taking heavy losses. Even if they kill SCVs, mutas need to survive. They cost 100/100. A siege tank is 150/125. You can also research building armor in the engineering bay to fend off mutas but it's better to get infantry upgrades first. Against lurkers, I recommend tanks or liberators.
You seem to like Vikings so I'll explain their use in TVZ. Vikings are usually a late game unit in this match up. If you make bio, Vikings are usually prefered but Thors can fill a similar role while also being really good vs mutas, though you could just beat them with plain marines. Vikings can fight off Brood lords and Corruptors which are popular late game. Corruptors will actually beat Vikings but Vikings have the range to force Corruptors to fight near your marines and ghosts (late game very good). They also counter Vipers but there's a risk of them getting hit with a fungal from an infestor and a parasitic bomb which shreds them. You have to space them out against Vipers.
Totally get that. Thanks for the breakdown of what vs what. Very useful.
Let me atleast explain why I built a few vikings this game.
I played a game recently, where I managed to get 8/10 vikings behind the Zerg base and just eat all of his overlords. It caused a supply block of me taking his supply down form say a limit of 180 to 55.
From there I was able to attack, and even trading really poorly, I can out produce and keep the pressure on to win.
That’s what was happening in my head, in this game, not so much
Liberators are better than vikings vs mutalisk
@@Voidspacealpha Sniping Overlords can be pretty strong but you have a very small window to make it work. If you supply block the Zerg, you still have Vikings which take up a lot of supply and resources that could’ve been marines or thors. Vikings are pretty good if you’re fighting late game Zerg but grounded Vikings are deadweight. You should also keep most of them alive because they’re really expensive.
For this to work, you would have to kill enough overlords that the supply you used on Vikings is mitigated by the amount of supply the Zerg lost. The Zerg can counter this by moving the overlords over queens which ignore F2. You have a small window of time here to snipe as many slow overlords as you can before they move over queens. Even here, you would have to win the main fight because the Zerg army will still exist so if it’s an even fight, the Zerg will come out ahead because you have less supply of effective army. If you lose this fight, you would have to remake army while the Zerg can remake overlords pretty quickly. Terrans losing fights can be game ending because Terran has very slow production.
The best situation this could work in is late game where you need Vikings to fight Brood lords or Vipers. Here, if there’s a break in the fighting you can take a few to go hunt overlords, but the issue here is that corrupters are much faster so there’s a high chance they won’t escape.
Yup, totally makes sense
I have not played this map, but I think I would move 16 SCVs from the main to the natural as soon as the natural is built to take advantage of the gold minerals. SCVs built after that would be rallied to the main.
You can only fit 12 on that base, so 12 would be enough. :)
@@JanGaarni Thamks!
@@superflypheelign plus gas of course. ☺️
So 18 total.
less than 16. There're only 3 gold patches, so moving 6 would be enough
You know, every time I’ve seen someone do this, they’ve lost.
There’s a match on this channel from recently where the opponent did just that.
Do you think it’s still worth doing?
your second refinery should go down right after you start your factory.
Yeah it was very late. I was lucky
Bronze?
Are there not levels between silver 1 and bronze in european server ? 😮
So last season I was ranked silver by the end. This season it let me play 1 game, and before I even did the other 2 ranking games put me in bronze 2.
People have commented saying there’s some kind of ranking bug
3:16 - that marine popped out on the other side and died. Rip.
11:14 - and this is why you dont F2 all the time. you just straight up can't deal with mutas coz you have no control groups.
Also those "ravagers" are lurkers, ravagers look more similar to roaches and have flamy-thingies. Also you forgot the second engibay. Other than that and maybe overbuilding supply depots at some points while not building them consistently in general - good game!
@@benismann I think he spotted that marines poor faith, cause he changed the rally to path around the factory right away. ☺️
Yeah I was saying Rangers knowing full well in my mind I meant lurkers (Zerg seige tanks). My bad.
This is why I’m a terrible caster, especially when I’m trying to cast myself in the moment 😅
I did, but his fate was sealed
Hey I am a masters 1/low gm player, if you would be interested in some coaching Id love to help.
Hey, usually i say no to this kind of thing, because its not the way i learn, however you've caught me in an okay mood. Drop me a message on Discord, i think i might be up for doing this and potentially making a video about if it helped or not.
Just going to bump this again because I am genuinely interested
@@Voidspacealpha Hi there. I work graveshifts and so tend to be awake at weird hours. Would you be up for doing this at 17:00 UTC on Saturday?
Discord is by far the best place to get me, let’s discuss it there 👍