Ex racer here. Just wanted to share something with you. A good friend, who still races a classic TZ250, was doing a track day recently at Jerez on his ex BSS ZX6R. He was sharing a garage with a guy he didn't know on a CBR600 whose friend was there to help out. It turned out this friend worked for Dorna as a rider coach, I would imagine mainly with young Moto3 riders. He was friendly and quite willing to give advice. After watching my friend for a while he initially started with body positioning. Lower body and legs fine, upper body and head needed to move forward and further to the inside of the corner whilst changing the hand position towards the end of the bar. All fairly logical stuff. But the thing that surprised me was his advice for corner exit. He said as soon as you've passed the apex and can see the exit, push the bike as upright as you can and open the throttle wide. It sounds extreme and and a bit scary but the guy assured my friend that the technique applies irrespective of the bike. After a bit of practice and building up to it the result was lap times nearly 2 secs quicker and riders telling my friend he was laying black lines out of corners. Don't use this technique on the road though! 🙂
The front and rear grip a little more, centre of mass helps position bike upward and outward ready for the corner. Need to be aware of balance between front and rear. A small neutral power bias gives some control of front vs rear, so then easing more power on straitening with adequate weight over the front allows you to contol slip angle on exit. - Scare with dog once... rushed to bite me, I lurched to shock him - quickly leant the my weight to steer - blipped too much power - and the front lifted out of line and heavily landed on the side (but scared the dog). So I better learned to manage front/rear grip. While cornering, sitting up straighter than the bike only uses the edge of the tyre (particularly the rear). The rear will be first to lose grip and broadside more easily. Otherwise, with the bike vertical too much power on exit will tend the front to lift and lose grip - (a motogp rider error). - Thanks for the experienced explanation.
@@user-kq9gq2xq2f Obviously not 'just', as it trimmed the best part of 2 secs from the lap time of my mate, who's raced at international level over the last 20 years and knows the Jerez circuit well. Is your confident pitch based on personal experience?
Keith Code: Throttle control rule #1: Once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled open evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn.
Yes, I wonder how folk were hurt by this particular false hood of immediately rolling on the throttle once cracked and 'pushing' through to the straight? Given the majority of injury/fatal motorcycle accidents are either running off the road or into incoming traffic on curves? Here's a 'reductio ad absurum' thought experiment for you. Imagine rolling into a corner, setting lean angle and cracking the throttle. At this point according to 1970s Code theory you begin rolling the throttle on. Problem is the curve you are riding is a constant radius circle -a tar seal donut. What happens? Your speed will increase until either you run off the road and possibly crash. Or you add lean angle as you continue to roll on the throttle and definitely crash. To avoid either you roll off the throttle and find a throttle setting that maintains the desired radius at the desired lean.
I've heard this explained as "never double load" your tires and suspension. Once you've set into the turn with your lean and throttle strategy you are pretty much committed. If you notice an error in your initial judgement, slow down and pull out. Doubling down in determination to make the turn by leaning even further or smacking the throttle adds a new stress to an already stressed/loaded tire/suspension. With no give left in the compressed suspension the already loaded rubber of the tire has no choice but to begin a slide or spin. That extra energy has to go somewhere at the point you have already maxxed out tire grip and suspension compression. If you are riding at 50%-80% you might be able to compensate, if you are riding at 80%-100% the room for error and/or correction decreases rapidly. My basic rule has become, you cannot reset the load on an already loaded system, you must either back out or relieve the loading in the other parameters somehow. Speed + Throttle + Lean = Load. By simply thinking of "Load" I have removed a lot of confusing mathematical figuring of equations, angles, algebraic and trigonomical calculations in my head as I am considering my approach and execution of a turn. Rule #1: Never double load your bike in a turn.
For normal road riding pace I usually take the throttle as the exiting tool, so I open the throttle when I’m ready to exit the corner and lot of times keeping a minimum amount of throttle to maintain the speed and lean angle. For higher road riding pace the transition I use is faster, downshifting or closing throttle closer to the corner entry.
One part of throttle control that so many people over look is closed throttle lag. Honda has a serious problem with this issue and has been programming the 600RR with a terrible closed throttle lag that the only solution was to install a Power Commander so you could recalibrate the TPS. I bought my 2004 600RR brand new. This issue was the only complaint I had but it drove me nuts ever time I went through a slow speed corner where the bike would lurch out from under me. No amount of trying to be smooth on the throttle made any difference. Recalibrating the TPS proved the lag was caused by software calibration. Not cable adjustments. Why Honda? Why!?
@@mikejd5573 Very good possibility! Nothing like more "SAVE THE PLANET" stupidity by making riding more dangerous and more likely to cause a crash. If that's their reasoning someone should be flogged over this.
i did this exact thing in qualifying during my last race, and my rear tyre came around on me. thankfully it didn't re-grip and chuck me over the bars, i sort of just low sided and spun around on the ground for a bit.
Position, speed, acceleration. The positions are braking marker, corner entry, point of lowest speed (smallest radius of turning), apex and corner exit. The road conditions are radius (constant, decreasing, increasing, irregular), camber (neutral, positive, negative, changing), elevation (level, uphill, downhill, crest of hill, bottom of valley), traction (grippy, slippery, changing). Your technique depends on the road conditions, which is why you have to figure out each corner individually. Great videos!
This has been massively insightful for me! I've always thought why would anyone be dumb enough to add throttle and lean angle at the same time... but adding lean to change the line, while increasing throttle, I can see how I could get drawn into that. Ideally, not because I have a good sense of radius = rpm... but in the moment, it could happen
As a skier, I find many comparison between motorcycle riding and GS racing interesting. In general, you accelerate after the apex.The big difference is that on skis, the more angle your interface has with the ground (edges and ski base), the more grip you have (to a certain point), because you maximize edge penetration, that is why skiers angulate. The opposite is true on a motorcycle where you are trying to keep your motorcycle as upright as possible. Another is that a late apex in skiing is a disaster. It is after the apex that you try to flatten the skis and let them "glide" and accelerate, so you want to maximize this phase. But of course, on skis, there is no track that imposes the apex on you. The only constraint is that you only need to get past the gate and set yourself up for the next one. The trajectory is up to you. Finding the limits of grip on skis is much safer, especially if you free ski on shorter radius slalom skis. But I guess that you can train on a dirt bike to limit physical and financial pain. Still, I always tell the kids I coach, if you never crash, you don't learn.
Great to see Coram at Snetterton getting a mention, I love tipping in at full throttle (on a 600 at least), then flying round the outside of an s1000rr that will probably pass me back straight away on the start finish straight 🤣
@RUNDMC1 yeah it's a proper difficult one that, I try to slowly roll off the throttle on the way round whilst pulling it closer to the right hand side of the corner. It's scary watching the onboard of the bsb riders going through there though
Well done introducing the "it depends" and not sticking to dogma. You could have gone further. If there is more grip available and you can feel that there is, then why not use it? Apply where you can best use it more corner force or more forward push depending on where you are and where you should have been and where you want to be. (Not that I am qualified to speak (2 track days, one last year and one 35 years ago). A lot of street miles though.
Good explanation and haven’t done track lessons, but after riding enough since the age of 16 I naturally understood these principles based on instinct. Never dropped a bike and never plan to and error on the side of caution to not over do turning lean improperly or too much and to look through the corner where I want to go. I find some of those accidents by riders on that notorious California hills area are inexperienced, visor open, wrong gear protection, overdoing the lean and throttle, etc and care about showing off than being skilled at riding safely.
Those road riders were riding constant radius, better to brake deeper into the bend and make it less of a long corner......easier from my tablet of course, but I do tend to go fairly deep on the brakes and minimise maximum lean, then I can wind on the throttle. Great work btw 👍🏻
Thank you for this, the biggest thing I got was that after 40+ years, I finally got it pounded into my head that street riding is a narrower "track" than track. It would seem obvious and I did realize, but I always have tried to stay within the lines where I ride in Norcal, this has resulted in 2 falls. And the throttle info is great, I have a zzr 1200 and the power is great so I think this will greatly help Thanks. so the fact is that I cannot try to imitate track riding on the street. this will help in ripping my vette through mosquito ridge road from forest hill.......look it up,
Some very good advice here and specifically designed for track riding However t could convert and be useful on a normal narrow road with other dangers about ie. vehicle coming the other way, run offs into rocks or trees, street furnishings etc. I like the mid line, the blue line where one approaches a corner or bend, one slows to an appropriate speed then on road riding one should slow to a speed making sure that one has the distance to stop in to the limit point. Something one doesn.t do on a track, Then one increasing the throttle ever so slightly to overcome the natural slowing forces of being on a lesser radius on the sidewall of the tyre and steers into the bend. Then continue with that constant throttle and speed and lean angle throughout the corner or bend. After the apex, when the bend opens up and not before straighten and stand the bike up to where one is now on the central tyre tread and no longer on the sidewall. Only then can one open up the throttle to come out of the bend proper without being high sided off.
That´s nice to hear. As Paul Harrel used to say, "I try not to use inflamatory sentences wich includes the word ALWAYS, or NEVER...". Yeah, you´ve guessed it, "there are caveats, disclaimers and yabbits"... Maybe in most cases, maybe in some cases, but "always do this", or "never do that"... well, is not the right at all.
Very simple, really. You did omit throttle application to create wheel spin and bike rotation into the corner. Because opening the throttle doesn't just make you run wide. If used correctly and aggressively enough on the track, you can steer with the rear wheel
This nuanced perspective was awesome! I'm a beginner, and super happy I watched this before becoming dogmatic about riding technique. Quick question: At 5:15 we can see your gear (I think), your speed and your RPM. I'm a minimalist by heart, so like the idea of a bike without instruments. So, I'm curious: Would your lap times be negatively affected by not having instruments? And if so, how? Yes, I know this is maybe a weird question. :)
For me this made sense as a child riding a bicycle and something most of us never did when we hit a corner with a crazy lean angle you would have to be outta your mind to try and pedal through a crazy lean turn..for one you would wipe out cause the pedals and crank and hit the ground and slide the bike from under you same thing with motorcycles too much and you can drag the peg. Very simple understanding concept if you have common sense you didn’t start pedaling again until after your curve or turn again at deep lean angle
On bicycles I found excessive braking through a turn to be problematic as it unloaded the back wheel. It would try and stand the bike up as the wheels would slow down but I would keep going. Gentle acceleration through the corner felt quite confidence inspiring, although I wasn't using the pedals, just an accelerator on an electric bike as I was taking a roundabout, though there is a world of difference between a motor with 750 or maybe 1000 watts output, and a track sport or superbike with upwards of 1000cc.
A piston engine will give a rev surge of power if it is tipped over at an angle. The dynamic weight of the rotating mass is momentarily lighter because it is not being lifted straight up but rather out to the side.
the turn on mulholland dr that people crash on alot (you showed many of these crashes as examples) is tricky because it goes from banked to unbanked, dropping the bike and rider off the banked angle to a flat road so it unloads the bike and upsets everything. that turn is not always caused by throttle input. it's like hitting a jump mid turn. most of the videos from that turn show the accidents at the same place, like your examples, while others might show people failing to navigate the turn in general. its a poorly engineered turn and unfamiliar riders get caught up there all the time.
Ahh mate I'm so sorry, yours is the only clip I missed the credit on! Yes you're doing good and your footage is fantastic. I'll see if I can wangle something in after the fact 🙏
Just two thoughts...(1) as a primarily street guy (Ducati, Triumph), you mentioned trail braking which is good but then shied away from the topic. I get that for track riding, but in real life guys should hang onto the concept for the same reason you said - unpredictability of non-track riding. Done well, it gives you an advantage on blind turns that you otherwise dont have. And (2), I've learned to just accept the corner you made with throttle once you commit and shoot for the gear you think you will want on exit. Correcting with too much throttle in the turn or searching for a different gear on exit because you lost too much speed in the turn can be a dangerous distraction coming out of a blind turn. - Peanut Gallery
Do too many not keep lane discipline while on the road?That is stay on their side of the road,even if there is no traffic.They will get in the habit of using more road than they should.If they always keep on their side of the road they trick themselves into using the available road,and judging corner entry better.If there is no plan B,plan A better be right.
Thanks for the video. Yes to me I think that throttle control is probably THE most important skill to learn for all aspects of riding apart from tje brakes.
I've definitely made this mistake my first track day. I didn't add lean, so I just ran wide into slippery wet grass leaned pretty far, and the rest is history
My first crash was in a hairpin turn where I entered to sharp and ran wide and instead of rolling of throtle and adding a more lean angle I straightened and braked and hit a wet leaf patch😢
Weigh the inside peg and secure your outside leg with your thigh. If you watch pro level racing you can see the outside foot often coming completely off the peg, but the outside leg staying secured to the tank.
Be connected to the bike with your outside leg into the tank (rubber tank pads are needed to help with this) and the inside foot on the peg. The handle bars are only for imputs, not for holding yourself up.
THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO. Canyon chasers says 0 throttle for EVERY CORNER. I am losing so much time on track on 90 degree turns because I'm 0 throttle from turn in until the apex. This makes so much sense!
I don’t know if it’ll be considered as a bad habit or effective one depending on how one looks at it; I still have difficult time looking at right place in turns so it’s a big struggle for me but anyway, many times I’ve had to go off throttle in a turn, bringing up the bike a tad and slightly ease on front brake to re-adjust my set up line/lean in. Usually when I have to do that is because my turn in lines are horrible so have room to do it. I been riding 10 years and still struggling 😔
Look through the corner to your exit, don’t tip in too early (this is key) and never look at where you don’t want to go (the outside of the corner, off the road) …
@@ma3stro681 Thanks. Yeah I know the basic principles for sure but for whatever reason I tend to look elsewhere or not far enough in so it completely kills my confidence on twisties. Done track few times but don’t really have that problem there so much with exception of one or two turns.
When you see a massive pothole on the line you have committed to on the exit. How that pothole wasn't there 2 weekends ago and you think you'll try it a bit harder this time. The road is not a racetrack. Stop thinking it's going to impress people minding their own if you get really close on full throttle as you pass. Just remember there are very few staff in the hospital on Sunday with no pain management it's going to be a long wait at best.
Thanks, good stuff! as a new rider wanting to get into track riding I wonder If there is anything that tall and/or heavy riders should consider? Position wise etc.? Also - how to choose first track bike as a tall rider?
In terms of position, my advice is simply be realistic about what you can achieve. You're not going to hang off like Jorge Martin. Instead, just do your best to get into a "good" hang off position, but not so far that it create serious discomfort. As for a bike, I basically just watch copious amount of bike reviews and listen to what the rider's are saying about the ergos! (favouring the roomiest options).
besides the other advice, I would add to get your suspension properly set up by a specialist. Taller/heavier riders might not only need more preload but sometimes a stronger rear spring. It costs only about 150USD but makes your bike a lot more fun and safe to ride at high speeds for your personal size.
I'm not very worried about opening the throttle - I can handle that, and I'm usually not in a hurry, since I don't race. What I'm rather worried about is when I misjudge a corner or it starts closing up on me (not that uncommon on mountain roads here), and I chicken out and close the throttle, instead of keeping it at neutral thrust or bit above. Since I loaded the front wheel and shifted my weight to the front, I'm worrying that unloading the rear tyre and adding negative thrust may cause it to slip. I pass through corners at high RPM so theoretically I'd have a decent amount of engine braking, but I don't close the throttle all the way, just slightly. Does that happen? Is that a thing? I have a feeling that if it does happen, it should be pretty controllable (it is when I do it at less lean). I'm debating with myself if it would be perhaps better to apply a very slight amount of front brake (probably not).
Hi, Do you have any vids on how to determine the apex on the street where you have not ridden before, this has been my worst problem. I try to look ahead while staying in my narrow lane, but most times I cannot see the entire turn so misjudge where the apex is and have to emergency slow, brake accelerate etc which causes me to stiffen up from fear. Is it as simple as slow down my riding when approaching a turn that has limited visibility or I am unfamiliar with? Thanks
If you want to develop control,try riding a dirt bike on a wet road.Turn like you are on a dirt road,Ease on throttle till the back spins,steer with the back,feet up,none of this fairy feet down stuff.
it's weird. As I ride on a normal bicycle, I already think of these frictions and weight distributions. Looks like we need to weave in common sense again on a bike 10X the weight. Ok, makes kinda sense...
Hey that's my picture you have in the thumbnail. It was taken in 2017 at the Ridge Motorsport Park in Shelton WA, turn 6. My fourth trackday. How did you find it?
Oh hey! So pleased you reached out. I found it on Reddit but the user account was deleted so I couldn't contact you for permission. I hope it's ok. Happy to offer credit in the description to something of yours?. It's a fantastic photo.
@@LifeatLean no worries, I would rather stay anonymous :) and thanks, I like the pic too. Something to show my future children to show that dad was cool in his youth.
On my last track day at snetterton I tucked the front at oggies. I don't know what I did wrong although I did have 36 psi in the front on slicks. One guy mentioned releasing the brakes whilst trail braking. But In a later session I noticed myself cracking the throttle before the early apex so I can smoothly accelerate through and out of the next corner. Now I'm not sure if I done that before the crash or whether I was entering too slowly due to being scared. Anyone got any thoughts? Opening the throttle does seem like it could unsettle the front but ya I can't remember what I did
Thoughts about adding small amounts of throttle while still keeping abit of front brake pressure? I sometimes do this so the throttle application doesnt pop the front to much, and my theory is that it keeps the front loaded while not loosing speed. Am i correct?
It's not the brake that loads the front per se, but rather it's the bike decelerating that pitches weight forward onto the front. If the brake and throttle balance out your speed, then the weight isn't on the front, it's relatively neutral. It'd be better to simply get good as feeding the power in smoothly.
I found out that in long U turns, I set up everything before the entrance, then I start on the throttle before the entrance and keep steady or add some tiny juice if needed until I see the exit. So far so good.
This the only thing that I live by through out the years of my riding when it comes to throttle control : "Once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled open evenly, smoothly, and constantly* throughout the remainder of the turn."
Thank god, validation of what I have been saying to people.. I think some of the riding technique advice that is outthere seems very black and white, and is treated as such. But in reality things different. Corums is the perfect example, simple cant be treated in the same way as.a 180 degree hairpin in regards to corner entrie throttal control. Good video!
Closed while breaking into a corner is my answer ! Hahaha I tricked the trick ! On exit after the apex stand the bike up has quick has you can and open it full open.
My crash at the end of this session ruclips.net/video/mZG_35NB5qc/видео.htmlsi=LziqXrdp-T_vXa8o is probably because of this mistake, I have 33 years of track experience, I was angry at myself for being cheap and using a old R11 tire that was worn out or that I was lazy not servicing the front brake. I didn't really understand why until I watched this video. A Great thank you!
Ex racer here. Just wanted to share something with you. A good friend, who still races a classic TZ250, was doing a track day recently at Jerez on his ex BSS ZX6R. He was sharing a garage with a guy he didn't know on a CBR600 whose friend was there to help out. It turned out this friend worked for Dorna as a rider coach, I would imagine mainly with young Moto3 riders. He was friendly and quite willing to give advice. After watching my friend for a while he initially started with body positioning. Lower body and legs fine, upper body and head needed to move forward and further to the inside of the corner whilst changing the hand position towards the end of the bar. All fairly logical stuff. But the thing that surprised me was his advice for corner exit. He said as soon as you've passed the apex and can see the exit, push the bike as upright as you can and open the throttle wide. It sounds extreme and and a bit scary but the guy assured my friend that the technique applies irrespective of the bike. After a bit of practice and building up to it the result was lap times nearly 2 secs quicker and riders telling my friend he was laying black lines out of corners.
Don't use this technique on the road though! 🙂
The front and rear grip a little more, centre of mass helps position bike upward and outward ready for the corner. Need to be aware of balance between front and rear. A small neutral power bias gives some control of front vs rear, so then easing more power on straitening with adequate weight over the front allows you to contol slip angle on exit.
- Scare with dog once... rushed to bite me, I lurched to shock him - quickly leant the my weight to steer - blipped too much power - and the front lifted out of line and heavily landed on the side (but scared the dog).
So I better learned to manage front/rear grip. While cornering, sitting up straighter than the bike only uses the edge of the tyre (particularly the rear). The rear will be first to lose grip and broadside more easily. Otherwise, with the bike vertical too much power on exit will tend the front to lift and lose grip - (a motogp rider error). - Thanks for the experienced explanation.
All this text book riding is great. I could name loads of riders with strange styles who are faster than most.
@@user-kq9gq2xq2f Don't we all. But are they as fast as they could be?
@@guymersh3148 It's just modern style. Like leg off . Elbow down. It's fashion.
@@user-kq9gq2xq2f Obviously not 'just', as it trimmed the best part of 2 secs from the lap time of my mate, who's raced at international level over the last 20 years and knows the Jerez circuit well. Is your confident pitch based on personal experience?
Keith Code: Throttle control rule #1: Once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled open evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn.
Yeah thats incorrect for the street though, you dont wanna accelerate through an unknown invisible corner. Trail braking is where its at
That's a 40 year old concept. And it's wrong. Even Keith stopped teaching that to his CSS in recent years.
Agreed
Yes, I wonder how folk were hurt by this particular false hood of immediately rolling on the throttle once cracked and 'pushing' through to the straight? Given the majority of injury/fatal motorcycle accidents are either running off the road or into incoming traffic on curves?
Here's a 'reductio ad absurum' thought experiment for you.
Imagine rolling into a corner, setting lean angle and cracking the throttle. At this point according to 1970s Code theory you begin rolling the throttle on. Problem is the curve you are riding is a constant radius circle -a tar seal donut. What happens? Your speed will increase until either you run off the road and possibly crash. Or you add lean angle as you continue to roll on the throttle and definitely crash. To avoid either you roll off the throttle and find a throttle setting that maintains the desired radius at the desired lean.
no matter which technique is used, smooth is the key.
I've heard this explained as "never double load" your tires and suspension. Once you've set into the turn with your lean and throttle strategy you are pretty much committed. If you notice an error in your initial judgement, slow down and pull out. Doubling down in determination to make the turn by leaning even further or smacking the throttle adds a new stress to an already stressed/loaded tire/suspension. With no give left in the compressed suspension the already loaded rubber of the tire has no choice but to begin a slide or spin. That extra energy has to go somewhere at the point you have already maxxed out tire grip and suspension compression. If you are riding at 50%-80% you might be able to compensate, if you are riding at 80%-100% the room for error and/or correction decreases rapidly. My basic rule has become, you cannot reset the load on an already loaded system, you must either back out or relieve the loading in the other parameters somehow. Speed + Throttle + Lean = Load. By simply thinking of "Load" I have removed a lot of confusing mathematical figuring of equations, angles, algebraic and trigonomical calculations in my head as I am considering my approach and execution of a turn. Rule #1: Never double load your bike in a turn.
For normal road riding pace I usually take the throttle as the exiting tool, so I open the throttle when I’m ready to exit the corner and lot of times keeping a minimum amount of throttle to maintain the speed and lean angle. For higher road riding pace the transition I use is faster, downshifting or closing throttle closer to the corner entry.
One part of throttle control that so many people over look is closed throttle lag. Honda has a serious problem with this issue and has been programming the 600RR with a terrible closed throttle lag that the only solution was to install a Power Commander so you could recalibrate the TPS. I bought my 2004 600RR brand new. This issue was the only complaint I had but it drove me nuts ever time I went through a slow speed corner where the bike would lurch out from under me. No amount of trying to be smooth on the throttle made any difference. Recalibrating the TPS proved the lag was caused by software calibration. Not cable adjustments. Why Honda? Why!?
I think a lot of people complain about this; emission regs prompt strange on-off closed throttle response that has to be tuned out.
There we go with the f'ing ignorant communists again trying to get rich while we lose more of our rights & safety. They turn everything to crap.
My 2007 600RR didn't have this problem.
My k7 gsxr600 had this issue or similar. They cut fuel on deceleration from factory for emissions. Makes returning to throttle abrupt.
@@mikejd5573 Very good possibility! Nothing like more "SAVE THE PLANET" stupidity by making riding more dangerous and more likely to cause a crash. If that's their reasoning someone should be flogged over this.
This is the video I absolutely needed. Riding an sv650 at the track, especially in fast tracks I need to learn to use the brakes less.
same with sv he open my mind
watch fast people and then watch slow people. do what the fast so. brake when they brake
One thing I'd add, if you're pogo-ing I.e. on/off the throttle multiple times during a corner, you're doing it wrong
i did this exact thing in qualifying during my last race, and my rear tyre came around on me. thankfully it didn't re-grip and chuck me over the bars, i sort of just low sided and spun around on the ground for a bit.
On what bike? I’m wondering how this all applies on different powered bikes
@@TheShortySosa rc390 on a kart track! it was coming out of a hairpin
Position, speed, acceleration. The positions are braking marker, corner entry, point of lowest speed (smallest radius of turning), apex and corner exit. The road conditions are radius (constant, decreasing, increasing, irregular), camber (neutral, positive, negative, changing), elevation (level, uphill, downhill, crest of hill, bottom of valley), traction (grippy, slippery, changing). Your technique depends on the road conditions, which is why you have to figure out each corner individually. Great videos!
This has been massively insightful for me! I've always thought why would anyone be dumb enough to add throttle and lean angle at the same time... but adding lean to change the line, while increasing throttle, I can see how I could get drawn into that. Ideally, not because I have a good sense of radius = rpm... but in the moment, it could happen
As a skier, I find many comparison between motorcycle riding and GS racing interesting. In general, you accelerate after the apex.The big difference is that on skis, the more angle your interface has with the ground (edges and ski base), the more grip you have (to a certain point), because you maximize edge penetration, that is why skiers angulate. The opposite is true on a motorcycle where you are trying to keep your motorcycle as upright as possible. Another is that a late apex in skiing is a disaster. It is after the apex that you try to flatten the skis and let them "glide" and accelerate, so you want to maximize this phase. But of course, on skis, there is no track that imposes the apex on you. The only constraint is that you only need to get past the gate and set yourself up for the next one. The trajectory is up to you.
Finding the limits of grip on skis is much safer, especially if you free ski on shorter radius slalom skis. But I guess that you can train on a dirt bike to limit physical and financial pain. Still, I always tell the kids I coach, if you never crash, you don't learn.
Great to see Coram at Snetterton getting a mention, I love tipping in at full throttle (on a 600 at least), then flying round the outside of an s1000rr that will probably pass me back straight away on the start finish straight 🤣
It’s the braking zone at the end of Coram and getting across the bike at the same time that does my head in!
@RUNDMC1 yeah it's a proper difficult one that, I try to slowly roll off the throttle on the way round whilst pulling it closer to the right hand side of the corner. It's scary watching the onboard of the bsb riders going through there though
Coram on a 600 is epic. In fact the whole track is great for a 600, loads of fast corners. But yes, the big bikes can make it a challenge!
@@RUNDMC1 Yep ive had a couple of moments right there 🤣👍
Well done introducing the "it depends" and not sticking to dogma. You could have gone further. If there is more grip available and you can feel that there is, then why not use it? Apply where you can best use it more corner force or more forward push depending on where you are and where you should have been and where you want to be. (Not that I am qualified to speak (2 track days, one last year and one 35 years ago). A lot of street miles though.
Good explanation and haven’t done track lessons, but after riding enough since the age of 16 I naturally understood these principles based on instinct. Never dropped a bike and never plan to and error on the side of caution to not over do turning lean improperly or too much and to look through the corner where I want to go. I find some of those accidents by riders on that notorious California hills area are inexperienced, visor open, wrong gear protection, overdoing the lean and throttle, etc and care about showing off than being skilled at riding safely.
Those road riders were riding constant radius, better to brake deeper into the bend and make it less of a long corner......easier from my tablet of course, but I do tend to go fairly deep on the brakes and minimise maximum lean, then I can wind on the throttle. Great work btw 👍🏻
Thank you for this, the biggest thing I got was that after 40+ years, I finally got it pounded into my head that street riding is a narrower "track" than track. It would seem obvious and I did realize, but I always have tried to stay within the lines where I ride in Norcal, this has resulted in 2 falls. And the throttle info is great, I have a zzr 1200 and the power is great so I think this will greatly help Thanks. so the fact is that I cannot try to imitate track riding on the street. this will help in ripping my vette through mosquito ridge road from forest hill.......look it up,
Some very good advice here and specifically designed for track riding However t could convert and be useful on a normal narrow road with other dangers about ie. vehicle coming the other way, run offs into rocks or trees, street furnishings etc.
I like the mid line, the blue line where one approaches a corner or bend, one slows to an appropriate speed then on road riding one should slow to a speed making sure that one has the distance to stop in to the limit point. Something one doesn.t do on a track, Then one increasing the throttle ever so slightly to overcome the natural slowing forces of being on a lesser radius on the sidewall of the tyre and steers into the bend. Then continue with that constant throttle and speed and lean angle throughout the corner or bend.
After the apex, when the bend opens up and not before straighten and stand the bike up to where one is now on the central tyre tread and no longer on the sidewall. Only then can one open up the throttle to come out of the bend proper without being high sided off.
That´s nice to hear. As Paul Harrel used to say, "I try not to use inflamatory sentences wich includes the word ALWAYS, or NEVER...". Yeah, you´ve guessed it, "there are caveats, disclaimers and yabbits"...
Maybe in most cases, maybe in some cases, but "always do this", or "never do that"... well, is not the right at all.
Very simple, really. You did omit throttle application to create wheel spin and bike rotation into the corner. Because opening the throttle doesn't just make you run wide. If used correctly and aggressively enough on the track, you can steer with the rear wheel
We all already know that closing the throttle, the bike will slow down very quickly.
no we dont
This nuanced perspective was awesome! I'm a beginner, and super happy I watched this before becoming dogmatic about riding technique. Quick question: At 5:15 we can see your gear (I think), your speed and your RPM. I'm a minimalist by heart, so like the idea of a bike without instruments. So, I'm curious: Would your lap times be negatively affected by not having instruments? And if so, how? Yes, I know this is maybe a weird question. :)
Thank you for doing such a great job explaining everything. I am a member and great material on the site 😊
For me this made sense as a child riding a bicycle and something most of us never did when we hit a corner with a crazy lean angle you would have to be outta your mind to try and pedal through a crazy lean turn..for one you would wipe out cause the pedals and crank and hit the ground and slide the bike from under you same thing with motorcycles too much and you can drag the peg. Very simple understanding concept if you have common sense you didn’t start pedaling again until after your curve or turn again at deep lean angle
On bicycles I found excessive braking through a turn to be problematic as it unloaded the back wheel. It would try and stand the bike up as the wheels would slow down but I would keep going. Gentle acceleration through the corner felt quite confidence inspiring, although I wasn't using the pedals, just an accelerator on an electric bike as I was taking a roundabout, though there is a world of difference between a motor with 750 or maybe 1000 watts output, and a track sport or superbike with upwards of 1000cc.
A piston engine will give a rev surge of power if it is tipped over at an angle. The dynamic weight of the rotating mass is momentarily lighter because it is not being lifted straight up but rather out to the side.
the turn on mulholland dr that people crash on alot (you showed many of these crashes as examples) is tricky because it goes from banked to unbanked, dropping the bike and rider off the banked angle to a flat road so it unloads the bike and upsets everything. that turn is not always caused by throttle input. it's like hitting a jump mid turn. most of the videos from that turn show the accidents at the same place, like your examples, while others might show people failing to navigate the turn in general. its a poorly engineered turn and unfamiliar riders get caught up there all the time.
@4:06 Completely to scale cornering situation :D
Thanks for using my clip 😅 hopefully it means my throttle control was good?😂
Ahh mate I'm so sorry, yours is the only clip I missed the credit on! Yes you're doing good and your footage is fantastic. I'll see if I can wangle something in after the fact 🙏
@@LifeatLean Haha no stress! Awesome thanks for the feedback! Glad to see you making videos again. Thru helped me a lot! Cheers
Nice video. It's great your able to produce new content when you've already covered so much.
Just two thoughts...(1) as a primarily street guy (Ducati, Triumph), you mentioned trail braking which is good but then shied away from the topic. I get that for track riding, but in real life guys should hang onto the concept for the same reason you said - unpredictability of non-track riding. Done well, it gives you an advantage on blind turns that you otherwise dont have. And (2), I've learned to just accept the corner you made with throttle once you commit and shoot for the gear you think you will want on exit. Correcting with too much throttle in the turn or searching for a different gear on exit because you lost too much speed in the turn can be a dangerous distraction coming out of a blind turn. - Peanut Gallery
Clutch in, feet down, sorted.
Do too many not keep lane discipline while on the road?That is stay on their side of the road,even if there is no traffic.They will get in the habit of using more road than they should.If they always keep on their side of the road they trick themselves into using the available road,and judging corner entry better.If there is no plan B,plan A better be right.
You mean being in 1 of the "3" lanes within your lane or going into other actual lanes such as incoming?
@@don8659 If it is one lane each way,stay on your side of the road,unless it's a valid overtake.
@@dennisbailey6067 absolutely. Was Just curious as to what you meant by lane. I'll never take a turn cutting through another lane.
this (and other) video I totally missed before my first track day... Anyway, will learn before attempting the second time on track ;)
Thanks for the video. Yes to me I think that throttle control is probably THE most important skill to learn for all aspects of riding apart from tje brakes.
I've definitely made this mistake my first track day. I didn't add lean, so I just ran wide into slippery wet grass leaned pretty far, and the rest is history
Thank you again Dan for your great explanation!
Brilliant explanation.
My first crash was in a hairpin turn where I entered to sharp and ran wide and instead of rolling of throtle and adding a more lean angle I straightened and braked and hit a wet leaf patch😢
Great video and some great advice. Thanks for sharing.
Mastering trail braking keeps the bike and suspension settled.
Smooth is fast.
Fast is smooth.
Great editing. I subbed.
Thanks a lot for this! Absolutely great!!
Great content as usuall! Could you make a video about whether we should weight the inside or outside peg?
Weigh the inside peg and secure your outside leg with your thigh. If you watch pro level racing you can see the outside foot often coming completely off the peg, but the outside leg staying secured to the tank.
@@future62Yes, Jonathan Rea is a good example of this. His outside foot often comes off the foot peg.
Be connected to the bike with your outside leg into the tank (rubber tank pads are needed to help with this) and the inside foot on the peg. The handle bars are only for imputs, not for holding yourself up.
Steer with the bars - change direction with your feet
Learning on a dirt bike (as all riders should) teaches you a lot about footpeg positioning that transfers to road riding …
THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO. Canyon chasers says 0 throttle for EVERY CORNER. I am losing so much time on track on 90 degree turns because I'm 0 throttle from turn in until the apex. This makes so much sense!
I don’t know if it’ll be considered as a bad habit or effective one depending on how one looks at it; I still have difficult time looking at right place in turns so it’s a big struggle for me but anyway, many times I’ve had to go off throttle in a turn, bringing up the bike a tad and slightly ease on front brake to re-adjust my set up line/lean in. Usually when I have to do that is because my turn in lines are horrible so have room to do it. I been riding 10 years and still struggling 😔
Look through the corner to your exit, don’t tip in too early (this is key) and never look at where you don’t want to go (the outside of the corner, off the road) …
@@ma3stro681 Thanks. Yeah I know the basic principles for sure but for whatever reason I tend to look elsewhere or not far enough in so it completely kills my confidence on twisties. Done track few times but don’t really have that problem there so much with exception of one or two turns.
Can you give me a specific example where this happens? i.e. what type of corner do you find this is happens and where are you looking?
these were some really usefull tips !
Some excellent advice. Thanks.
I go full throttle the whole time and just slam the breaks on while I have the throttle still full pinned
When you see a massive pothole on the line you have committed to on the exit.
How that pothole wasn't there 2 weekends ago and you think you'll try it a bit harder this time.
The road is not a racetrack.
Stop thinking it's going to impress people minding their own if you get really close on full throttle as you pass.
Just remember there are very few staff in the hospital on Sunday with no pain management it's going to be a long wait at best.
Excellent!
Shat when I saw the guy riding in the left, while a car passes head on in the right. Then I realized what’s going on…
What is the correct way for my Ducati as it’s a v twin if I close the throttle the bike slows down dramatically with compression
Thanks, good stuff!
as a new rider wanting to get into track riding I wonder If there is anything that tall and/or heavy riders should consider? Position wise etc.?
Also - how to choose first track bike as a tall rider?
If you’re a new rider you need to spend years learning how to ride first. Preferably on a dirt bike … 😎
@@ma3stro681 agree to disagree :)
In terms of position, my advice is simply be realistic about what you can achieve. You're not going to hang off like Jorge Martin. Instead, just do your best to get into a "good" hang off position, but not so far that it create serious discomfort.
As for a bike, I basically just watch copious amount of bike reviews and listen to what the rider's are saying about the ergos! (favouring the roomiest options).
@@LifeatLean appreciated, thanks a lot!
subbed! will be following for more!
besides the other advice, I would add to get your suspension properly set up by a specialist. Taller/heavier riders might not only need more preload but sometimes a stronger rear spring. It costs only about 150USD but makes your bike a lot more fun and safe to ride at high speeds for your personal size.
Excellent video. Thanks 🙏🏽
I'm not very worried about opening the throttle - I can handle that, and I'm usually not in a hurry, since I don't race. What I'm rather worried about is when I misjudge a corner or it starts closing up on me (not that uncommon on mountain roads here), and I chicken out and close the throttle, instead of keeping it at neutral thrust or bit above. Since I loaded the front wheel and shifted my weight to the front, I'm worrying that unloading the rear tyre and adding negative thrust may cause it to slip. I pass through corners at high RPM so theoretically I'd have a decent amount of engine braking, but I don't close the throttle all the way, just slightly. Does that happen? Is that a thing? I have a feeling that if it does happen, it should be pretty controllable (it is when I do it at less lean). I'm debating with myself if it would be perhaps better to apply a very slight amount of front brake (probably not).
You may want to look into trail braking. This may solve your problem.
This is a beautiful video and you should become a track instructor IMO.
Is it correct to say I shouldn't coast through a corner with closed or minimal throttle until after I've completed trail braking on the entry?
5:45 yes I’ve had this crash on track.
Yeah, these concepts should be instinctually understood within the first year of riding
I prefer turning the bike with the throttle and my body weight on the back wheel loosing the front on my old 2 stroke is scary 😅
Hi, Do you have any vids on how to determine the apex on the street where you have not ridden before, this has been my worst problem. I try to look ahead while staying in my narrow lane, but most times I cannot see the entire turn so misjudge where the apex is and have to emergency slow, brake accelerate etc which causes me to stiffen up from fear. Is it as simple as slow down my riding when approaching a turn that has limited visibility or I am unfamiliar with? Thanks
Thank you!
Go as fast as you can into corner. Brake afterwards
Can't register for the course in the description.. I get errors... Anyone else? 🤔
If you want to develop control,try riding a dirt bike on a wet road.Turn like you are on a dirt road,Ease on throttle till the back spins,steer with the back,feet up,none of this fairy feet down stuff.
Nice t-shirt 👍
it's weird. As I ride on a normal bicycle, I already think of these frictions and weight distributions. Looks like we need to weave in common sense again on a bike 10X the weight. Ok, makes kinda sense...
Hey that's my picture you have in the thumbnail. It was taken in 2017 at the Ridge Motorsport Park in Shelton WA, turn 6. My fourth trackday.
How did you find it?
Just to be clear, I don't mind that you used the pic. I am flattered it looks catchy enough to be the thumbnail of a motorcycle video.
Oh hey! So pleased you reached out. I found it on Reddit but the user account was deleted so I couldn't contact you for permission. I hope it's ok. Happy to offer credit in the description to something of yours?. It's a fantastic photo.
@@LifeatLean no worries, I would rather stay anonymous :) and thanks, I like the pic too. Something to show my future children to show that dad was cool in his youth.
On my last track day at snetterton I tucked the front at oggies. I don't know what I did wrong although I did have 36 psi in the front on slicks. One guy mentioned releasing the brakes whilst trail braking. But In a later session I noticed myself cracking the throttle before the early apex so I can smoothly accelerate through and out of the next corner. Now I'm not sure if I done that before the crash or whether I was entering too slowly due to being scared. Anyone got any thoughts? Opening the throttle does seem like it could unsettle the front but ya I can't remember what I did
TLDW: Don't add lean and throttle at the same time. If you didn't learn this very early on in your lessons you didn't do very good lessons.
Love from INDIA 🇮🇳🙏❤️
Thoughts about adding small amounts of throttle while still keeping abit of front brake pressure? I sometimes do this so the throttle application doesnt pop the front to much, and my theory is that it keeps the front loaded while not loosing speed. Am i correct?
It's not the brake that loads the front per se, but rather it's the bike decelerating that pitches weight forward onto the front. If the brake and throttle balance out your speed, then the weight isn't on the front, it's relatively neutral. It'd be better to simply get good as feeding the power in smoothly.
Know you bike limits and don't upset it.
I found out that in long U turns, I set up everything before the entrance, then I start on the throttle before the entrance and keep steady or add some tiny juice if needed until I see the exit. So far so good.
This the only thing that I live by through out the years of my riding when it comes to throttle control : "Once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled open evenly, smoothly, and constantly* throughout the remainder of the turn."
Throttle
Thanks,
Thank god, validation of what I have been saying to people.. I think some of the riding technique advice that is outthere seems very black and white, and is treated as such. But in reality things different. Corums is the perfect example, simple cant be treated in the same way as.a 180 degree hairpin in regards to corner entrie throttal control. Good video!
Always remember there is never any “always or nevers” in motorcycling….oh wait.
Closed while breaking into a corner is my answer ! Hahaha I tricked the trick !
On exit after the apex stand the bike up has quick has you can and open it full open.
Buy a 2 stroke...Burble on man !
Go in high in the box better fun.
hahaha dit it to learned my lesson
Sad... Big lack of understanding on that one, creating dangerous advices... Things are very different...
My crash at the end of this session ruclips.net/video/mZG_35NB5qc/видео.htmlsi=LziqXrdp-T_vXa8o is probably because of this mistake, I have 33 years of track experience, I was angry at myself for being cheap and using a old R11 tire that was worn out or that I was lazy not servicing the front brake. I didn't really understand why until I watched this video.
A Great thank you!
👍🥰
Leave throttle open,back brake ready, lean into corner, feel it, always more gas, never less, straighten up, done....