INEOS America's Cup Yacht Reveal
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- Опубликовано: 23 апр 2024
- An extreme take on the rule, at odds with other teams and with plenty of mystery still to be seen, this could be the most interesting yacht of AC37, but is there any indication it's brutalist style with be fastest?
Recon video and photos credit to Recon Photographer / @America's Cup
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This is the only place to go for AC stuff. It is pretty esoteric, but he nails it. Thank you so much Tom.
For sure, especially compared to the peanut gallery at the New York yacht club
nahhh... vittorio d'albertas, sail ring. much more objective
Totally. ✅💯
Love the theories. I hadn't thought of what you said about volume fwd > AoA > Bow down > big skeg.
Rudder theory I would tend to think you're spot on!
Always a great video! I am now constantly looking forward to the Mozzy Sails video when any new boat or big update comes out
Me too, im actually disappointed when its not straight after, but understand why it isnt! More content from Mr Mozzy!
Thanks Mozzy. I think it would be forgivable if you are an INEOS fanboy!
Wow Moz! What a theory! I love it. Never hold these ideas back. Incredible. You are definitely onto something here. Ineos might well be pissed that you outed them, though clearly no other team will be able to follow this at this stage. Well done bruv, you are the absolute GOAT of modern AC analysis!
I like the bravery on the INEOS team this time around, no one wins the cup being boring!
I've been simultaneously a) eagerly awaiting this b) been impressed with every passing hour that you've shown restraint, expecting consequently superior analysis 😊. Right or wrong, its great that you've hung it out there and formed a fascinating hypothesis and not given a dreary 'commentary by committee'.
Glad you enjoyed it!
These boats are rigged with mainplane and tailplane, nut in an aircraft they get longitudinal stability by using the tailplane to press DOWN relative to the mainplane. It the tail is designed to lift it'll need constant adjustment to keep a steady pitch.
@@bobwalden5853 I think that was part of the problem with Patriot, or more so with Defiant, as the had the crew far enough back that it seemed they were relying on a not insignificant degree of rudder lift.
@@weatheranddarkness I think you've got the problem sussed
I've been waiting for this one! Cheers Mozzy, another great video.
That's a really interesting take! I have to admit that I thought "damn the brits have struck out again" but now that forward hull section and the skeg design make a lot more sense. Either they'll surprise everyone or keep their dismal track record. In all honesty I hope they do have a winning boat this time.
Cheers Mozzy. Great to have your input on this! Your channel is definitely the first stop for information, concepts, and analysis.
Thank you.
I really hope the INEOS boat is competitive!! They need it more than anyone to show they can.
I enjoy your analysis my friend. So looking forward to seeing them all out together on the water.
You and me both!
Fascinating analysis dude, is why I keep coming back to your channel, keep it up
Excellent presentation. Much appreciated. Looking forward to all your other analysis
Great analysis mozzy best in the business
Well well, an radically interesting looking boat.
Lots of great speculations.
Amazing. Been waiting for this. Love it keep them coming.
Love your thoughts mate, cheers for the sharing of your knowledge in relation to exiting times.
Ha been waiting for this vid! Thanks man !
Fantastic breakdown and analysis. Very enjoyable and thoughtful video as always!
With all the new boats being revealed and at the same time, the intrigue before the matches will start, this channel is the only place for the funs to be!! Thanks, Mozzy, always great insights! Looking forward for AM boat uncovered and some new update from the rest of the teams
I just love this - the intrigue grows! Great analysis which really adds to the drama. Can't wait to see them on the water side by side.
Brilliant analyses as usual, big thanks!
Great video Tom, I have been waiting to see what you would have to say about the new INEOS boat, as usual you saw so much more than me from the same photos and video and I love your explanation of what we have seen, it will be interesting to see how it pans out.
As a Kiwi that knows nothing of sailing....I love watching Mozzy Sails dissection of the available footage of these boats....I still know nothing of sailing, but, you make it sound so exciting....
Luv these insightful video’s, keep them coming
Great analysis, cant wait to see this boat fly, then compare and contrast its performance against the other boats.
The problem with having the rudder pull "down" is that it adds trim drag.
One way to think of this is in terms of "net lift" and "gross lift". The net lift is the vector sum of the rudder and mainfoil lifts, and must always be equal and opposite to the weight of the boat. The gross lift is the sum of their absolute values, i.e. the total amount of lift that all surfaces are generating, regardless of direction.
When all wings (rudder and mainfoil) are pushing upwards the gross lift is equal to the boat weight.
When the rudder is pulling downwards the gross lift is larger than the weight of the boat, because the mainfoil has to provide extra upward lift to offset the rudder's "pull". gross_lift = boat_weight + 2*rudder_pull.
This matters because every wing produces induced drag in proportion to the amount of lift (whether "push" or "pull") that that wing generates. This means that induced drag is proportional to the gross lift, not the net lift. By increasing gross lift a downward-pulling rudder increases this induced drag.
As you point out it also provides higher righting moment, which allows the sail to generate more force, and maybe in some conditions that could overcome the increased induced drag?
My intuition is that for many situations the optimum would be a design that's as perfectly balanced over the mainfoils as possible, and the rudder produces no lift in either direction. That would provide the greatest possible righting moment without increasing gross lift and therefore induced drag.
That's certainly true for aircraft, where you get best efficiency by balancing over the wings (neutral static stability) or by getting positive lift from both wings and tail (statically unstable).
so it would possibly be good in a narrow window?
@@spare9434
That’s my take on it.
Whether that’s a low wind window or high wind window…my intuition only takes me so far!
Over to the intellects, for their hypothesis 😊
@@breakinghabits_II so like some formula 1 cars, it could lack the ability up operate in a range of conditions
@@spare9434
But unlike F1…this has a set position for its rudder. Is it set for a large range of conditions or just one?
What Merc have done with their front suspension (made it moveable up/down and can be set for a specific track) could be some inspiration for the sister team Ineos for their rudder.
Perhaps have a couple of positions to suit the weather conditions of the race.
Isn't there an assumption here that the original rule and placement of the rudder as far after was by default correct, maybe Ineos have determined that this may not be the case. Far from an expert here but I can't believe that such a decision would have been a huge consideration for the designers. Guess we will see soon enough.
Thanks for sharing your ideas on the INEOS boat. It is very interesting given the partial reveal of the AM boat and the speculation about their crew placement.
Well Mozzy having just read the Sail Web recon report on Ineos Britannia towing trials it seems your suspicions over the design innovations and rudder righting moments are bang on. Congrats on the insight and to Ineos on a design first that could prove as radical and decisive as Alan Bonds, Australia 2 AC winning winged keel
We live in hope....
Mmm
Been waiting for this one , keep em coming.
You got it!
Thanks mozzy
Thanks, sir! Excellent thoughts.
Always look forward to hearing your thoughts and those of your mates. I'm not a sailor nor an engineer but you make understanding these boats accessible. I love the racing and having an understanding of what the teams may be trying to achieve with the yachts adds to the enjoyment.
Also, as a Kiwi who has lived in England for so long, this team and the Kiwis interest me the most. I will always support England where it doesn't conflict with NZ.
Thanks for a really interesting take on the Ineos very different underbody and rudder configuration.
Thanks - I've been waiting all week for you to tell me what my opinion on the boat is!
This was a terrific analysis. As a longtime board builder (surf, wing, kite, SUP) and now a small-time hydrofoil builder/designer, I love your detailed analyses. Some input: They seem to have taken inspiration from all of the board foils out there - all of them work on the principle that the aft hydofoil creates a downforce, that sets the AOC of the horizontal lifting wing. The riders then shift their weight forward to keep the bow down, so the little "airplane" stays in take-off mode, but doesn't get ventilated. By moving the hydroplane/rudder closer to the lifting wing they have created a much smaller "wheel base," as you pointed out. This will give them a great advantage when rounding the marks - since they will be able to sail inside of any boats forced to take a wider turn. This ability will be somewhat mitigated by having a heavier swing-weight in the bow. Also, I've been pointing this out for years, but I don't see the point of such a displacement style entry on a flying boat - it just creates a "stumbling block" should they ventilate a foil at speed - causing an abrupt stop and pitchpole danger. But all that said, I love the innovation - there are so many more ways to utilize hydrofoils than what has already been designed. I'm about to file my 3rd patent on hydrofoil designs - very very exciting stuff!! Thanks for the detailed info! - it helps me to shape my own (more radical, biomimetic-inspired ) concepts.
Great analogies. Foil riders also generate more foil lift by (body) weighting the leading edge of the foil dont rhey? Also, when an AC75 nosedives it might be nice to have some buoyancy in the nose😂
Could moving the rudder forward decrease the turning circle (ie, tacking arc) of the boat? That would make Ineos more maneuverable. Otherwise I don’t see much advantage. More downforce equals more drag equals lower speed.
Great video man! You said a lot of interesting things.
Looooove the design! Beautiful!
Really like the way you do these graphical annotations (as most of the terminology is alien to me). So thanks for taking the time and trouble. Cheers.
Fascinating. Even I understand what you are talking about which shows how clearly you discuss a really complex topic.
Brilliant. Keep trimming. Thanks
Another great video, cheers mate, looking forward to you and the boys doing a comparison of boats. Will be interesting to see etnz foils
Wonderful technical discussion for a non technical listener👍👍
Another great review, Tom. Let's hope, for INEOS's sake, you're on the right track.
Thank you for your efforts 😮
Tom's analysis is an order of magnitude better than any other I'm aware of. Fascinating stuff.
Superb analysis
Good Luck GB. As they say in Hollyweird....Break a Skeg!
Good insight
Gee! I don't know. Saw the New Zealand boat yesterday and the yacht just flew. Really amazing and just built for speed.
I might go down to the CBD on Monday and have a nosey at her.
Flew? It's a freaking missile.
@@jamesaron1967 How can you tell?
That is a such great analysis Mozzy and its got me super curious for the launch and testing ! This would maybe explain why they have not disclosed the rudder yet.
We need a new Ineos video Mozzy! I’m checking every day!
Oh Mozzy, I hope you're right. I just cant shake Merc F1's involvement and their utter failure at producing a competitive car for 3 seasons in a row.
awesome analysis - tow tests supports it too - cant wait till she sail tests mid week
The Americas cup is an opportunity for teams to innovate and take risks just following the rest is not enough.
Team NZ often try new designs and it doesn’t always pay off.
It’s great to see different design ideas come to light good luck INEOS
I was a witness to the first foiling AC in SF and been windsurf foiling since then. Your explanations always amazed me as they describe foiling principles I myself experienced. Windsurf foiling is pretty similar to the way these boats behave. It’s so cool to see ineos pushing innovation and I hope they are onto something here. I am curious about Ineos ride height in the Barcelona sea state. Either a calm breeze on flat water or crazy tramontana with big gusts. Can’t wait!!!
Oh, yeah, I'm completely on board with this! In the '60s-'70s I was a huge fan of the Can-Am series, primarily because Jim Hall and his wildly innovative Chaparral race cars...
I am so glad I found this channel to help explain these designs. Thanks for your work. I wondered if the airflow over the boat could be used for down force at the rear making use of the rudder gear housing. This would explain why the structures extend further back along the sides of the deck 'needlessly' as they provide an end plate for the airflow steering it onto the rear wings.
a cup fan through and through
Love your analysis mate! No one else is doing this! You need a job with one of the AC teams :)
The full bow below the waterline is something that stands out. Noice design bois. Good luck
Will be VERY interesting to see how this races, it would be great to see boats with vastly different operating 'windows'. Ie Ineos great in high winds but not in lower winds or something like that so the racing could be super interesting.
These are such high apparent wind machines that there is practically no light air - over the sails and deck.....except when taking off. Surely they looked at rules re minimum windspeed for racing and planned accordingly.
Thanks man. If you are right then finally we have something interesting and not just variations on the NZ boat from the last cup.
Great conjecture. This fascinates me. I have been somewhat baffled by lifting tails as that was abandoned in the very early days of aircraft development because it is very unstable. My wingfoil rig has a negative lift tail like a modern aircraft but these boats balance on the leeward foil and rudder like a three legged stool with a leg missing... in a wind storm.
Modern aircraft do indeed have tailplanes that pull down for takeoff and landing, but in cruise the tail is offloaded by moving the CofG for efficiency.
Mozzy, I love the analysis on this design!!! There is a ton of merit to what you are describing!! I’m eager to see if the design proves itself!!!! I appreciate your thoughts!!
Hey Tom,
Many great memories from 15 years ago when you used to coach me in Toppers 😂 love your work mate, can’t wait to see how this all pans out!
That takes me back!
Wow, the waiting was worth it!
This is what happens when Chat GPT is asked to design a boat.
Brilliant analysis worth waiting for Mozzy! Recon imagery you rightly point out isn’t hugely enlightening on some key features. But there seems to be a lot of very subtle detailing on the underwater hull form forward bustle, as some others have suggested like a large cetacean. Some interesting analysis on this three part hull form on the Italian channel sail ring; mostly concluding this achieves easier lift off and greater manoeuvrability. Love to hear your thoughts on this… well done, great channel delighted you continued after last cycle ❤
Just yesterday I was watching a couple of documentaries about tailless aircraft/jets and I day - dreamed about the possibility of how AC boats could minimise the rudder structure and modify its role - I guess I am about to find out! Insightful as always - my thanks!
Not sure I'm convinced but I love the conversation. You are very clever and I enjoy that more than my sinicism about English yachts in America Cup races. Fingers crossed as always!
Having watched the video of the tow test I think you are bang on about the rudder pulling down to lift the nose rather than working as a lifting foil
OK mozzy. We haven't forgotten your fan boy review of the last lemon ineos launched.
You pommies can't help yourselves when it comes to this.
Hope Mozzy is right in that it is a better boat because team Ineos needs it. In the standard 40's their sailors dissapointed.
Mozzy gives an analytical assessment of what the designers may be trying to achieve, you call him a fanboy. Very good mate.
As mentioned in the video, INEOS do their own thing and while they may not have pulled it off last time, not many challengers do first time around.
It's a bold departure from the norm, which I think is worth getting a little excited about as a fan, more so if you're British, but also a little apprehensive about if you're not, like this kiwi 😬
Your hurty feelings caused by the empire?
I like uour analysis: be interesting to see if they can control it.
Last cup they went all out as well and built two tanks , the fact they still haven’t launched yet makes me wonder more , just seems a long set up stage
Cheers Mozzy.
I love the new lift distribution proposed by Ineos. It unloads the rudder (which may be in negative lift) = increased righting moment. Like @Mozzy Sails, I think this is the idea behind the design. Just brilliant.
On the other hand, I think the abrupt hull line is likely to generate more drag.
I believe the angular section in front of the foils arm are designed to work like bargeboard used on F1 cars. Push airflow out wide, reducing flow under the boat, and increasing the ground effect and righting moment during flight. This is why the rear section looks like a diffuser and is angled up during flight.
Thanks for the analysis Tom - really fascinating theories! Just thinking about the fore-aft balance... if they were sailing agressively bow-down I guess that the rig tilting more foreward would have the effect of taking the COG forward, then negative lift from the rudder would come into play to keep the boat trimmed, so we could maybe expect to see that sailing mode as the boat becomes overpowered?
Keep it coming Mozzy, great as always. Love the different styles of boat. Luna Rossa seems like the most traditional boat, Kiwi's is how do we make a boat that is fast when foiling, Alinghi is lets make something aerodynamic and racey that still looks like a boat and Ineos looks to have tried to forget it's a boat and design a flying machine that may need to float occasionally.
Tom, as usual I wait biting my nails for your insights / honest dissection at what we can see. Iam waiting breathless for the US boat. Currently TNZ is getting so much TOW that with their aces in the sleeve will make challengers have their work cut out for them. Let the games begin. Fonty
Great analysis yet again. I thought it was suspicious that they haven't shown us the rudder! Those foils look very high aspect, too. Bringing the lift and mass centres closer makes the boat more twitchy, less stable, so smaller control inputs have more effect, with less drag. The Barcelona wind range means they'll probably have more power and lift than they need, more often, so turning some of the lift into righting moment makes sense, also because in light winds, the rudder can go back to lifting mode, as the extra righting moment isn't needed. ETNZ already showed in ac36 that controlling the foils to trade between lift and righting moment is key to going fast. It's the same as shifting your weight around in a dinghy. That hull shape has me scratching my head, though, so different to ETNZ, which looks to be the right shape for dealing with the waves.
Thanks. At least it’s different and sticks to a design philosophy.
Ineos is either going to win the cup or come in dead last.
Meh. It's perfectly possible they might be competitive but not win it.
Not a bad strategy in a competition where famously where 'There Is No Second'
Just like in cycling and F1...
Yah, either Ineos have it extraordinarily right, and the others have it woefully wrong or vice versa. Time will tell if the experience of Italy and Team NZ mean anything in their designs.
Cheers.
@@jaysdood Or the other way round. If Ineos wins the challenger series and handsomely win it, Team NZ will have their work cut out.
Can not wait to see her in the water 😍 ❤
Enjoy your blogs and I also enjoy seeing where the technology (in addition to team work + strategy) goes. These foiling yachts are a bit similar to aircraft where the main foils are like wings and the rudder also serves as an elevator to control pitch. For aircraft COG really matters. I used to race model gliders on the hills here in NZ, and one of things I used to do when building was to get the COG as far back as I could get away with (i.e. not unstable to the point that its impossible to fly smoothly). Reason being to minimise elevator drag. Used to make the glider harder to fly (less stability and very much had to be flown actively) but overall it often gave me an edge when others were flying similar gliders with more conservative COGs.
Same when dynamic soaring - in fact if you had the COG too far forward you may run out of elevator control while pulling high Gs. Although you can go too far aft and I did lose one glider (came apart mid air) due to divergent pitch oscillation as it accelerated through 220 kph. Normally its wing flutter and very turbulent air thats the enemy.
Interesting. Seems to be in line with the concept from aerospace engineering, that it’s better to be nose heavy than tail heavy. I commented exactly that in one of your previous videos.
The lump on the bow should henceforth be known as the goiter, it will be interesting to see if the Ineos rudder causes more drag than the gains it makes. Its ok to be a fan of your own team , you get a free pass for life. The winner is sailing and designers, look at the effect all this has had on sailing world wide, we can never go back now. The greatest move of all was to put foils on monohulls, the last bastion of the luddites, it used to be catamarans that were shunned, when foils were added it was still another category of sailing and avoidable, but now its on monohulls there is nowhere to hide from progress.
I too was wondering about the increase in drag from the rudder. Surely less leverage and greater bite would offset the gains. But then here we are and INEOS have built it that way. And so far they're the only one to diverge from the relatively coalesced designs of ETNZ, Luna Rossa and Alinghi.
@@benjaminweslake4174 it could be another W foil or an actual advantage 🤔
Great 1st impression. Acctually thats how rudder work on airplane, they counter lift from main wing to trim and add stability. Like that short wing rudder length (you must invent this wording for short vs long wheelbase for yacht), IMO see how SrBenA race, mostly He Tac more then Kiwis with max angle to increase speed than distance (mad race mode ON). So I guess enginneer just accomode that style, bulky underbody I reccon all heavy stuff place in this section to lower and more centre COG (more stable on turn and Tac) with short and aggresive balance allow SrBenA to turn faster on Tac and do more Tac. But loose more on top speed, increase acceleration reduced top speed
Not a fan boy , you work is always very thoughtful,. I do not understand half of what you say but it is still interest what bit I do understand . Can not wait for Cup ❤
Assuming that they want the skeg to close the slot on the waterline I think you are spot on about the nose down approach and the rudder. Will be interesting in the cup as this could well set Rita either ahead or behind everyone else 😊 Only time will tell… Fingers crossed…
Interesting, but I believe one key point about the rudder's forward location has been overlooked. That is, moving the rudder forward decreases the boat's turning radius, potentially providing the opportunity for faster maneuvers, plus a tactical advantage when rounding marks in tight quarters with other boats.
No the role is to increase righting moment. Rudder moved forward means you loose torque to pitch=you need higher «effective lift » to pitch . So if negative lift is needed on rudder to maintain flight (which seems to be the case with crew forward and foils backward) , the effect of forward rudder is to increase righting moment!
Thanks Mozzy, as always a very interesting briefing. It'll be a bitter blow if Ineos once again fall short of the competition in design terms. Your theory raises a couple of follow up questions. All teams have placed the main foils to the back of the measurement box so they do most of the lifting, so is the approx 5% difference in rudder lever arm between Ineos and others a different concept or just fine tuning of loads. Secondly, in AC36 it was proposed that take off was promoted by the rudder lifting the stern out first to reduce drag, build speed to the point the main foils lift the boat proper.. Presumably the rudder setup for down not up will be a total bummer in light winds.
I imagine Barcelona swells , with risk of momentary losses of 'traction' on underwater surfaces would favour balance and discourage the downforce bias you propose. But who knows, I'm certainly no yacht designer :). I suspect this team will exhibit strengths and weaknesses that are more extreme than other teams. Intriguing eh ?
One Italian expert thought it would get on its foils super quick compared to others. But in other aspects he wasn’t convinced. Time will tell.
if anything waves favour a boat balanced centrally over the main foils unreliant on downforce or lift from the rudder, because it's easier to keep the main foils submerged. we've seen it already in the f50's where losing rudder downforce on mark roundings in high wind/wave conditions is probably the leading cause of pitchpoles. so relative control will come down to how far each team is off centre balance, if ineos is less far in front than other teams are behind they should be less susceptible to that issue
@@rydenkaye9735I would have thought that a boat that pitches further forward would be more susceptible to pitch poling, especially if the rudder is pulling down, no?
@@jasonpickens9839 yes, that's what i said. the relevant factor is the degree of pitch the boat naturally has, not the direction, so if the ineos boat wants to pitch forward less than other boats want to pitch back it will have better control. but if the ineos boat wants to pitch forward a ton they will have higher risk of pitchpoling because if they lose rudder they're going down the mine. if you lose rudder lift instead of downforce it also often results in a pitchpole fyi because the boat pitches up increasing the angle of attack on the main foils making it jump and then crash down so it's not really like one is worse than the other
@@johnmartin7158Likely to be the opposite but if so then it's a world beater.
Makes me wonder if in the future we'll see canard style setups, where there is a lifting foil in the bow that maintains pitch control, the main foils are moved back, and the rudder only controls yaw. It would seem to be a more efficient layout, in that all the bodies would be creating lift, and so the induced drag of the lifting foils would all be going towards keeping the hull out of the water.
I'm happy to see Ineos spend $100 million on seeing if a risky design idea works in practice. If it pays off, then the whole world of foiling boats will benefit. If it fails, then Sir Ben will have to find another billionaire for AC38. I'm sure when RB3 pitch polls into the heavy barcelona sea state - it will get lots of tv coverage around the world.
The catch 22 is that you don’t win by building the same boat as everyone else
Sir Ben, you might have said, will fall on his sword?? 😂
This must be Bens last chance.The fastest boat win and team GB consistently produces slow boats
Any first reactions to American Magic? They seemed to have gone a totally different direction with design. Even where the foil connects to the boat there's not really a bulge there.
What you said about the increased angle of attack in the displacement mode, the bulkier nose shape might also mean that the center of gravity is further forward, relevant for the displacement mode, so that it can lift off at all, confirming your main theory
Magic!!
If you're right mozzy it means nasty pitchpoling when the rudder cavitates. High risk strategy..