Comparing The Rhino Black Sabbath Debut Album With The UK 1st And The US 1st
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- Comparing the new Rhino HiFi Black Sabbath - S/T with the UK 1st and the US 1st pressing.
#black sabbath #rhino #ukswirl #vinylcommunity #metal #vinylcollection
Someone asked me if I did my comparison on a Crosley turntable. Ha. I never wanted to brag about my hifi stuff, but here goes.
#Technics 1210G with Cardas Audio Cygnus phono cables and Vertere Sabre cartridge on Vertere Redline power cable
#GoldNote PH 10 phono pre with power supply and Cardas Audio cables
#NAIM AUDIO Supernait 2 with NAIM AUDIO HiCap2 DR
#NAIM AUDIO ND5XS2 with Chord Signature DIN cable
#NAIM AUDIO S400 Ovators LS with NAIM AUDIO cables.
All resting on a NAIM FRAIM rack and powered by NAIM AUDIO POWERIGEL.
FYI:
I have absolutely no agenda whatsoever. I loved Gray's Paranoid from 2006 and I thought "Awesome, that new Rhino might sound similar in that good way".
So I went ahead and put on first the Rhino. And immediately I noticed that the thunder and lightning and the bell ringing in the intro is much clearer but also much more enhanced in the upper frequencies. The first song was pretty ok, but I immediately missed the colossal 3D imaging of the UK Swirl...the sheer power and presence filling up my room was just "not there" like I am used to...it all came straight into my face with equal "force"...I missed the separation of the instruments too.
On its own, it sounded pretty good. Clear and powerful, but with a bit of too much "highs"...the top end a bit too pronounced. For my taste.
1 minute or so into The Wizard, I started to feel "annoyed" by how much "clustered" (squeezed?) the sound became and the cymbals and the whole drum sound pissed me off. Sorry to say. It just cannot hold up to the phenomenal punch of the UK or the US 1st. So I had to stop.
Then I listened to the first songs on both the US and the UK and the smile was back in my face.
Then back to the Rhino with N.I.B.
And to the US and the UK...and again these had the upper hand...was I biased? Certainly not. Why would I WANT the Rhino to "loose"? I was just disappointed because I expected too much...
I never went into the comparison with any agenda or motivation. 🙏
From @timwildes:
"Can you list what pressings sound the best for their first five albums? Thank you sir
Or maybe 1st and 2nd place for each. So #1 UK and #2 US for the debut or maybe give them a grade...thanks"
My personal ranking:
S/T:
1) UK 1st
2) US 1st
3) German 1st
Paranoid:
1) UK 1st
2) US 1st
3) Kevin Gray Rhino Reissue
Master Of Reality:
1) UK 1st
2) German 1st
3) US 1st
Vol. 4:
1) UK 1st Porky Peckham
2) French 1st
3) Chris Bellman Rhino Reissue
Sabbath Bloody Sabbath:
1) Japan 1st Vertigo Spaceship
2) US 1st
3) Chris Bellman Rhino Reissue
Thanks Thor!! I made a screenshot of these pics for reference
My personal experience has been getting 1st pressings (I love white label promos) and bought many when CDs were the thing....Some 1sts are just too expensive, imho...
Disclaimer: I know that it is not really a „true“ comparison since allegedly the Rhino HiFi seems to be made of the US master tapes, but still I am kind of disappointed about the „result“ on vinyl….since I really love what Mr Kevin Gray did with Paranoid. And even if they used the US master tapes, my OG Greenie US 1st bombs the Rhino away IMHO. Sorry to say.
Kevin's cut rocks!
Good stuff. I did a dynamic range analysis of rhino hifi, 2010 rhino McMaster and The Warner green is much more compressed than Kevin’s cut. The compression may be why we prefer it. I do like hearing some of the tiny details in Kevin’s cut. I have said this in other posts. The Warner average DR10. Kevin’s most recent cut is about 13+. The compression makes it louder…and probably fattens up everything. Pretty happy in general. It’s good to have so many pressings to choose from
The lack of compression was probably not on purpose back in the day. If so, than Kevin's cut is what the band would of wanted. but who knows. we have all learned that analog compression can be wonderful sounding even when not always intended.
@@Brian-qg8dg lack of compression? What I am saying is it was analog compressed back in the day. Compression can sound good. But it does take away dynamics for loudness and grunt. It’s a balance. KPG doesn’t use any compression. This is all I was saying. In this case people may prefer that fattened up compressed sound…. Whereas many don’t like the KPG cut because it far more focused and balanced because of the lack of compression. The band, mastering engineer or the record company etc may have wanted it compressed for various reasons.
@revelry1969 I understand what you said, and you basically jsut said the same thing. Again, back then, maybe that was best they could do in order to keep the sabbath heavy sound. Again, maybe the compression wasn't on purpose. And maybe the band wanted less compressed sound, as the Kevin Grey version. Now. I basically said the same thing too haha. Cheers!
I just ordered this. My original has some spots on side 2 which are very distracting. I forgot just how good side 1 was, I'm really looking forward to this one.
Thanks for this, Thor! Nice deep dive into your favourite pressings of this classic.
Exactly, Jason. Thanks. You wrote MY favorite pressings. I am not out and about to force my preference on anyone. 🙏
Hello Thor I enjoyed your review I also did a review of this record on my channel and I agree. 😊
@@RocknRonni Thanks
Thank you for your informed opinion on these pressings. I too was disappointed with the Rhino and didn't have the choice pressings to compare. I just felt something was off. Now after hearing your experience I know what I need to get. You explained it perfectly.
Glad I could help!
Do you believe the US first press is from a dub of the UK first press master tape?
I honestly don't know. 🙏
Wow, wirklich coole Scheiben. Die Black Sabbath UK Pressungen sind ja sehr selten zu bekommen. Grüße 🎸🎸😄
Zum Glück hab ich die ersten 4 als UK Swirl 1st pressings...hat me Weile gedauert bis die in NM bei mir waren. Danke! 🤘
So interesting. I love your reviews Thorsten. I don’t always agree with you, but I love your passion and you always bring receipts. I REALLY need a UK Swirl
Thanks. Why should we agree on everything... 😂 Variety is the mother of enjoyment and everyone can have his/her opinion... 🙏
The UK Vertigo is crisp, open with all-around Low, mid, highs. Rhino isn’t even close. It’s very muddled.
Your US press looks to be the slightly lighter shade of green. I have two green label Artisan 1st, one being the lighter shade of green which I thought is the more vivid of the two. Side A matrix WS 1871 A 39728-1B Artisan logo no pressing plant markers. Have yet to hear Kevin's cut but looking forward to it!
I heard the earlier ones are the lighter green...mine sounds phenomenal.
I think the word you're looking for is 'expansive' it isnt as expansive.
The Australian Fontana pressing will make your testicles tingle, the Wizard appears in your room and grants you 3 wishes then returns with them 😵💫
I am set. Love my UK 1st and US 1st. No need for another one. Thanks.
@@thoronmetal108
You must have the Fontana pressing or the Wizard will appear in your dreams and he won't be happy.
@@crazyprayingmantis5596 LOL 😂
Can you list what pressings sound the best for their first five albums? Thank you sir
Or maybe 1st and 2nd place for each. So #1 UK and #2 US for the debut or maybe give them a grade...thanks
See my pin.
My first pressings are the best, I've bought remastered and none of them sound as good as my original albums. I've stopped buying them. Almost stopped buying vinyl completely. I check the pressing plants before I buy any.
Thanks for sharing!
Hi Thor👋🏻⚒️🎸thanks for the assessment and video.
I have the same conclusion here as far as the Rhino vs the Vertigo. I would imagine the biggest issue is the US tape used vs the UK mastertape that was used on the Vertigo. AAA is certainly nice but if the analogue US copy of the UK tape has been eq’d then it would be difficult if not impossible to reverse this.
Rhino says that the US tape is not eq’d. That would mean essentially it is an exact copy of the UK mastertape. I believe what they say, not implying this is not true.
But this I find difficult to put my head around.
Why?
Because the Rhino sounds so much different than the UK Vertigo. If it is a direct copy then why not just do the reissue as the Vertigo sounds? Why disturb perfection? Or are there actually differences in the production tape that the US has been using all these years as compared to the mastertape?
If not then it could be a case like with the Classic Records Zeppelins in which when I directly asked Bernie Grundman “If the original masters were used, why do the Classic Records versions sound so much different than the best UK and US originals?” His reply was (paraphrased) “You cannot duplicate that sound. The reason is different technology, machines, engineers etc” I would also throw into the equation: tape freshness. Basically, according to the above, the UK Vertigo sound will never ever be duplicated and the chase for a better version concerning the S/T Black Sabbath is futile. The Vertigo is the end game.
But here is another wrench to throw into the wheel cogs:
Is this true? Is it impossible to duplicate that Vertigo sound due to differences technology, machines, engineers etc as compared to when the album was recorded and mastered in 1970?
The below may shed light on this as a myth…
What is interesting is that I also have the japanese SHM-SACD also (supposedly a flat transfer of the UK mastertape) Same results. The SHM-SACD is better than the Rhino and very close to the UK Vertigo version.
The SHM-SACD was done in 2012. Just 12 yrs ago. From the UK mastertape. Not exactly a fresh tape I would think? And yet in fact sounds very close to the UK Vertigo lp.
So the idea that reissues cannot be duplicated soundwise to the original?
Maybe not so true after all. At least not in the case of the Black Sabbath self titled album when comparing the SHM-SACD to the UK Vertigo.
Back to the Rhino…
With the Rhino when every instrument is so brought forth musical texture (musicality) is lost I think. One of the ways to accomplish this detail and clarity is to increase upper mids and upper frequencies. Unfortunately this detail and clarity adjusted with eq in this way can take away from the 3D spacial sound as with the Vertigo. All the instruments are right there in ones face because all become so separated in detail. I believe that Kevin has a certain sound to many of his masterings. For jazz it many times works. For rock, imo, not so much. At least not for my tastes.
No apologies needed. Its ok to say the Rhino is poor in comparison. If it is, it is. When one literally has to stop playing the lp due to shrillness, in your face sound and boxed in sound…that is the very definition of a poor version.
And this is no knock against Kevin Gray. I am thankful for the many many very good masterings of titles that he has done. War GHs, The Meters, MMJ titles etc etc. I literally have probably over 150 KG masterings. Unfortunately this Black Sabbath is not one of them that is good IMO.
PS: Rhino should have scanned your original UK cover. Much better detail and we could have had a facsimile autographed cover! ;)
Long Live The Great Black Sabbath! 🤘🏻🎸🪨😎👍🏻
Thank you ❤
Great comment! I knew the Rhino wasn't my thing immediately. And I didn't have the choice pressing to put up against it. It was pretty obvious to me.
I personally think a different approach (and perhaps specifically chosen equipment) could get us close to the Vertigo' sound. I can't imagine this was the goal with the Rhino. I think I heard Kevin had a Vertigo for reference, but there must have been a different objective. The Rhinos have a certain sound signature, and sometimes I feel Kevin doesn't have free rein to do as he normally would. Is it possible the client wants them to sound this way?
@@ThePressingMatters Maybe…
Love his work on Paranoid.
Thor, you’re making me want to go out and get a copy! And you know I’m no metal fan. If I get copy you have to get a Jazz record?! 🤣🤣🤣
I just listened again to the first 2 songs on the Rhino and then on the UK.
The Rhino is really great, but not in the league of the UK Swirl. It's most obvious when you listen to The Wizard.
Thanks for your review Thor. Now I need to seek out a “greenie” since the “swirl” is out of my reach.
Any time!
Great review again Thor👍
Glad you enjoyed it
I love Black Sabbath that album is amazing i love it nice video my friend take care
I'm selling my sealed Rhino pressing. I had a feeling it wouldn't cut it. Thanks Thor! I bought my 1st US pressing upon release in 1970 when I was a member of a record club. I played it constantly when I was in High School but it still sounds great.
i understand that new buyers of this album are looking for a decent copy but the good news is the album was one of Vertigo's top sellers over the years and like Beatles albums there are still many good playable copies around for not a lot of money.
Exactly one of my points. Thank you. Early NEMS, German Swirl, German Spiegelei.. they all sound great...
I completely disagree with this assessment. Maybe you got some kind of faulty pressing? Everyone has their own opinion, obviously. But I just don’t get it. The new hf version sounds incredible. Even Mike from ingroove who’s a well respected and known audiophile and has an incredible sound system gave the new pressing number 1 as the best pressing of this album.
Why must my pressing be faulty? Just because I prefer the US and the UK 1st pressing? You nailed it: Everyone has their opinion. So, you are free to disagree. I know quite a few people who disagree with you and Mike on this pressing. I am glad you like this pressing. And by the way, what is the definition of an audiophile? Someone who has a sound system for a huge amount of money? I respect Mike Ingroove, but I disagree with him on several "which pressing sounds best"...
Experiencing music is a completely subjective and personal thing. No need to get upset about it or say "you must have a faulty pressing". Thank you.
LMAO! Mike works for Kevin Grey. The UK sounds great!!!!