Videl and Violence in Dragon Ball - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Majin Boo Arc Part 7!
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- Опубликовано: 13 сен 2020
- The 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai continues with Videl vs. Spopovitch. This is often considered one of the most brutal fights in Dragon Ball, so, at my peril, I decided to explore that. Why does this moment leave such a strong impact in people's minds? How does Dragon Ball use violence in its storytelling, and how does the violence in this fight stack up against violence in the rest of the series?
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/ mistarefusion 
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Spopovitch is clearly prolonging the fight for his own enjoyment.
He really does fit right in with the rest of the gang.
Waku Waku im So Exicted to fight you!
Wow Multiple Universes Die but i can Fight YAY!
Oh my god i hate the writers for letting Goku act this Way!
this comment is so underrated
Not so much in the Manga. The Anime? Well... got five minutes to spare?
I do wish all the damage he sustained and dealt out had a purpose though. Still enjoyed that fight though. Equal rights, equal fights. And after all, it was a tournament to determine "the strongest under the heavens"
The difference is in what aspect of the fighting he is enjoying. In most cases, the Dragon Team enjoys the competitive nature of the fight. They seek others who also enjoy it and therefore will share that enjoyment. They do not enjoy beating on someone weaker. Not only is Spopovich drawing pleasure from humiliating and torturing someone not quite on his level, but he is just enjoying the carnage (at least in the anime) *period.* The few instances where said team are enjoying the negative effect they are having on their opponent, they are evil assholes or bullies. There is argument for that being not quite a good thing either, ethics, showing you are better then such an emotion as devilish glee. But it's not on the same level.
"If Elmer Fudd shoots Duffy Duck in the face and Bugs Bunny is splattered with bits of his brain, it's not funny anymore."
I don't know, man, that kinda made me laugh
Same
They'll probably be the funniest thing I ever see
It would be a inversion of expectations so yes it would be funny in that way because we EXPECT it to not be lethal but if we did not do so, it isn't, expect for really twisted people.
Family guy did that joke too
I think basically his point was it's only funny in a dark humor way. You probably wouldn't want too, (and couldn't) see it in a whole G-Rated Loony Toon.
26:57 honestly....this is my biggest gripe, seeing how videl basically loses all of her personality after this fight is really sad, she had soo much potential
like your youtube channel
Does she really... Krillin is the strongest human on earth and he's still a gag character. Videl knows martial arts, and that's technically it. She's probably lower than Chichi on the totem pole (and that's just because she was trained by her dad the Ox king a former student of master Roshi.)
@@siresorb1419 im not talking about strenght, she started with a strong tomboy-ish personality clashing with gohan's more defensive personality, thats what made them so fun to watch in the great saiyaman arc, but sadly once the buu saga went full swing, she became just a background character that did basically nothing.
though sadly thats not unique to her, since as mistar said, its a fate to soo many DBZ characters, especially the ones from DB that are not named goku, krillin and bulma
The Saiyan's should have won and kill Frieza and protect their own planet.
What if the Saiyan's survived and won against Frieza and his men and Gine which is bardock's wife and also Fasha become princesses like Saiyan Disney princess type in a big fat gypsy princess puffy wedding dresses for the grand ball and for for the wedding because they are Saiyan princesses like a Disney Princesse?
Do you guy's to see Fasha and Gine dressing up as princesses an a big fat gypsy princess puffy wedding dresses for the grand ball and for the wedding because they are Saiyan princesses like a Disney Princesse?
How do you guy's agree with that idea that Fasha and Gine dressing up as princesses?
@@bocodamondo I was pissed with this too when watching the series as a kid, I REALLY liked videl.
I never realised how quick Videl is sidelined as a character. Perhaps because the anime spends more time in the Great Saiyaman part. Or perhaps, because the story never seems to allow for new characters in almost the entire Dragon Ball Z part. Gohan and vegeta got added as main characters, and we've seen almost the entire dragon team being sidelined. With no "old" characters having space as main character, there's also no room for new characters
I dont think that's entirely true, Future Trunks, young Trunks and Goten all get their own arcs and decent amounts of development. I think the series could have benefitted from more variety in new characters, but its understandable that everyone introduced after a certain point is a super-powered combatant that can turn their hair yellow.
It's realistic that she gets sidelined though. In the real world of martial arts such as the UFC. Careers are cut short due to injuries or a severe beating. Ronda Rousey, and Sage Northcutt to name a few. Videl's days of fighting are over. There is no "She will come back and she will triumph." That's not realistic. She is not like Gohan, although she has the drive, she does not have the talent and skill.
In my opinion, she wasn't 'side-lined'
She wasnt as strong as the main cast and she can't train as good as the main cast
She is only human. She just learned ki.
@@trilfy she got completely healed by a magic bean you anology doesn't really apply
@@mr.protagonist5639 Hmm... I guess, but doesn't change the fact that she will get severely beaten again as with the case of Ronda who also didn't suffer severe injuries at all, but was beaten so bad it lowered her self esteem.
I don't want to argue how uncomfortable the brutality is, but you missed one aspect to this fight. At this point in the manga and anime, Videl has gradually been coming into Gohan's world as a "secret keeper". This has been playing off of the super hero tropes from the previous chapters; Videl has gradually learned that Gohan was super strong, learned about "ki", learned how to fly, etc. Most of her interactions in this arc have added to this gradual reveal, although I think in this case the anime does a somewhat better job. Videl getting beaten down here and requiring healing allows her to learn about senzu, more or less completing her transition into a secret keeper for the Dragon Team. This leads into her realization that Gohan was the one that defeated Cell. I don't think Toriyama really followed up on this well thanks to the transition back to Goku-focus, but the elements were there.
It trully is a shame since I always liked Gohan more than Goku (although the super hero part always cringed me even as a kid). I'll never understand the fascination Toriyama and the fanbase in general have with Goku.
@Porfirio Rubirosa And apparently, neither the new generation of fans.
@@jju00 Well, it depends what you mean by the new generation of fans. If you mean the ones that only know the Super version of Gohan, then I can see that. If that also includes only knowing the Colleen Clinkenbeard version of the Cell fight, then I can understand that as well, since Gohan's voice sounds just as meek after ascending to SSJ2 as it was prior to that. Otherwise I don't understand why they wouldn't like the character.
@@jju00 im from the "old" generation of fans and have never liked him, never found him to be relatable when he was born better than everyone else and barely had to try at all to get stronger, he either gets saved by his father or picoloo, or solves his problems by getting angry, i actually find him boring by comparison with goku, he has less chemistry with the cast than goku and when the spotlight was on him the most interesting thing he had going for him was highschool, the most generic thing in manga/anime.
@@slifer875 Goku was also born better than everyone else. Both Goku and Gohan had to train to be stronger, but in Goku's face it was only to "update" him to the current threat whereas Cohan had to train in order to do anything in the first place.
Despite the fact Gohan was born with talent he had to learn to use it properly first and even then he had to learn to be brave first.
There is more character development with Gohan than with Goku and that's what tips the scale in favor of Gohan to me.
I'm not saying that Goku is a bad protagonist or something like that. What I meant is that Toriyama and, to my eyes, the new generation of fans seem to be obsessed with Goku to the point of going out of the way to make him the center of attention every time.
"Guns don't kill people, sudden tonal shifts do."
"Sudden tonal shift" is now what I call my shotgun.
Farmer with a sudden tonal shift.
This evening at the sandy hook elementary school, there was a mass sudden tonal shifting.
My favorite thing mistare fusion has said
Videl was just given the human treatment. Yamcha’s broken leg, like you mentioned before. Krillin being killed by demon king piccolos children, everyone that died in the Saiyan attack excluding piccolo (as his death was for his own character growth) krillin being killed by frieza, yamcha getting a hole through his chest by gero.
I never saw videl kicking his head backwards as her going too far. I thought that she was progressively hitting him harder and harder because it wasn't doing any damage until she got desperate to do some sort of damage, so she kicked him as hard as she could.
I mean sure, but that still means she went too far
And it still didn't do shit
@@SomeRandomDude000000: Maybe, although while Videl is an experienced martial artist, she's still new to the concepts of ki. It's quite clear from her expression that she didn't expect her attack to break his neck. It's possible she accidentally enhanced her attack with ki.
Alternatively, given how much Spopovich outclassed her, he might have been gauging her strength, then deeming her no threat dropped his guard entirely and allowed her to break his neck just so he could freak her out for intimidation.
@@EmeralBookwise I mean sure, but that still means she went too far.
(Also there's no way spopo let her break his neck to intimidate. He was pretty mad about it)
@@SomeRandomDude000000 Agreed. She definitely, unintentionally took it too far. It happens on occasion, even in real fights. That's why manslaughter exists as a charge. Accidental murder is a thing that happens on occasion.
I can't believe I forgot to comment. Well, I came back to do just that.
This is one of the best episodes of Dragon Ball Dissection, and a credit to just how far you've come from those very first videos. A riveting half hour on basically 3-4 chapters... THIS is Dragon Ball _Dissection_ in every sense of the word. It's thoughtful and provokes conversation, it's engaging and this must be the definitive video- no- _essay_ on this topic. Imagine the ground that covers.
The only thing I hate about this video is that RUclips's star rating system has long since vanished, so I can't give it five stars.
The Saiyan's should have won and kill Frieza and protect their own planet.
What if the Saiyan's survived and won against Frieza and his men and Gine which is bardock's wife and also Fasha become princesses like Saiyan Disney princess type in a big fat gypsy princess puffy wedding dresses for the grand ball and for for the wedding because they are Saiyan princesses like a Disney Princesse?
Do you guy's to see Fasha and Gine dressing up as princesses an a big fat gypsy princess puffy wedding dresses for the grand ball and for the wedding because they are Saiyan princesses like a Disney Princesse?
How do you guy's agree with that idea that Fasha and Gine dressing up as princesses?
@@58jn89 what
That's why I subscribed all the way back in the middle of the Freeza arc, this channel simply provides in so much wealth what no other channel does and I'm very happy when there's a new upload in my subscription box.
Yeah wow I did not even notice it when did that go?
@@muslimmetalman nearly ten years ago
I feel so bad for Kara Edwards, Videl’s English voice actress. She cried after having to record the animated version of this scene, which involved having to watch said scene in order to match the lip flaps. That included screaming in agony to portray a head getting crushed under a foot.
Wow I never heard that she cried regarding this scene. Wild.
Her voice acting in Z dub was unbearable in a bad way, Kai dub was better
@@didgeridude8430 I mean, it's a pretty unfortunate scene. Even teenaged me, many moons ago when first watching Z was able to pick up on the tonal shift _really_ easily.
The scene is designed to be upsetting, and I think the crux of the argument that everyone is making is that it isn't upsetting for Videl's characters sake, it's upsetting for the sake of the reader and Gohan. It's ultimately a cheap, pointless scene that seems almost vindictive. And yeah, when you slice away all in-universe context, its a 16 year old girl literally being almost beaten to death. So it doesn't really surprise me that the VA would cry recording it. It's just plain awful.
why did she cry?
@@craigime Because of how brutal the scene was and providing screams for said scene on top of that.
Funny thing is that Gohan's 'rage moment' when he was seeing his girl getting crushed was the CLOSEST I believe he got to reigniting his 'Cell Saga rage."
Bet $$ if Dabura had Videl under his boot, Gohan would've ended the threat of Babidi before Buu even hatched!
Then he proceeds to bench press vegeta
I love your videos!
@@Pooh396 thanks so much!
The Saiyan's should have won and kill Frieza and protect their own planet.
What if the Saiyan's survived and won against Frieza and his men and Gine which is bardock's wife and also Fasha become princesses like Saiyan Disney princess type in a big fat gypsy princess puffy wedding dresses for the grand ball and for for the wedding because they are Saiyan princesses like a Disney Princesse?
Do you guy's to see Fasha and Gine dressing up as princesses an a big fat gypsy princess puffy wedding dresses for the grand ball and for the wedding because they are Saiyan princesses like a Disney Princesse?
How do you guy's agree with that idea that Fasha and Gine dressing up as princesses?
@@58jn89 so, how many times did you get dropped on your head as a baby?
I feel like the comparisons between Videl and Gohan highlight one of my main issues with Videl's arc. Videl gets a choice with whether she wants to fight or not, but she's only ever punished for choosing to fight. When Gohan is pitted against an opponent much stronger than him, on several occasions Gohan gets rewarded for having the courage to fight them, (e.g., Raditz, the blast that Vegeta tells Nappa to dodge, and the hit on Freeza), and is frequently punished for being too afraid to fight (e.g., Piccolo dying, and 16 dying). Videl, on the other hand, is only ever punished for not choosing to relent. She chooses to fight the bank robbers during the Great Saiyaman stuff and she's rewarded by nearly being shot to death till Gohan saves her. She chooses to not quit against Spopovich and she's rewarded by nearly being beaten to death till Yammu stops Spopovich. The story frames Gohan's relentlessness as courage and Videl's as stubbornness. Videl last appears metaphorically giving up, and leaving the fighting to her boyfriend. This feels incredibly condescending considering Videl is one of the few female characters who can fight, and we go through a dozen or so chapters of her training, just for the final message to be that she should stop making trouble for Gohan. Just seems like a betrayal of her character.
But she can't fight on the same level as a Saiyan. She was never as strong as even freaking zarbon how is she supposed to keep fighting against babidis soldiers?
@Morph Ball from the beginning of the series, master roshi says that the meaning of martial arts is to fight to better yourself, not to win. videl got this far because she had true passion as a martial artist, and shouldnt have thrown it in the toilet just because she wasnt always winning. her character was ruined by the writers
Except wating to better because of your pride is still wanting to improve. While people can change if said change isn't really explored in story is more likely done covience rather then growth.
@EmiGmaFactor134
Well it is a "shonen series" after all, guess we can't have a strong female character as a supporting combatant as a result.
That's not a defense either as your comment showed me how frustratingly irritating this handling of combative female characters tends to be in shonen series like DragonBall. While I see there might be some validity in oda, Toriyama, and Kishimoto's statements of not writing women or romantic subplots well, find their reluctance to try suspect.
But this is coming from a writer who's written female leads and supports in combat roles since he was 15(I'm 32). So I have experience. That being said it might be for the best, because as Mistare implies Western society has an aversion to violence against women regardless of how it's conveyed. As a result, I feel that if I get more exposure for my work, I'mma ruffle some feathers given the situations some of my female leads and supports find themselves in. As a result Videl getting sidelined might've been for the best...
She wouldn't even be able to beat Raditz. Hell I'm not sure if she would be able to even beat Tao Pai Pai.
To be fair, I would also be pretty mad if a girl kicked my head 180 degrees
This made me laugh a bit loud. Not gonna lie. XD
I've always felt that sidelining Videl was not only the worst decision of the arc, but was a direct consequence of Toriyama being a lazy writer. Every problem Gohan has as a protagonist is fixed by Videl's character. She's a lot like Goku in her optimism and dedication to training, but she's perhaps a bit more virtuous as well. So when you need a good counter balance to Gohan, you can point at Videl and use her as that counter balance. You don't need a active villain intentionally causing harm to get Gohan in on the action because Videl will jump into the fray and Gohan will feel compelled to join in. So dropping Videl so early was never a good idea, but it does save Toriyama from having to draw her in the following scenes.
And so many scenes later in this arc would greatly benefit from Videl. Having Supreme Kai freak out at "10x gravity" feels a bit absurd in retrospect, but we could have had Videl in that room also realizing the full scale of the strength difference between herself and the Z fighters. Instead of her going "Hey you killed Cell right?" in a completely unprompted end to her role in the story, she could've been with our heroes as she slowly realizes this fact.
the Buu saga is my absolute favorite, it's got a scope and depth well beyond the rest of Dragon ball, and the entirety of potential it has is wasted at every opportunity. But even with squandered potential it manages to give us characters and moments that define dragonball to this day.
I think this is a good point. Would have liked to see how the story played out in the hypothetical situation you offered.
I would still say ssj3 was worse as a narrative choice, as it did little but make goku to blame for buu's awakening
"Just turn off your brain and enjoy it!"
"Um, I can't. My brain is where I enjoy things."
Just consume product and be excited for next product
@@benthemother3fan884 That's right, Jay!
Ben Edmondson basically every shonen tard
For me what kills this fight is the context and consequences. Videl was built up throughout the arc, learning about ki and getting closer to Gohan. She’s this fun new character that brings something different and some interesting relationships. Heck, she’s even the one to kick off the tournament arc by dragging Gohan into it. Then, after the comedic prelims and kid tournament, in her first real fight in the series, Videl gets brutalized in a style that’s not normally done. This isn’t like the randos in the previous arc who are killed in absurdly over the top ways. It also isn’t like when main characters suffered horrific injuries as said characters always had some kind of win and more impactful story presence. Yamcha, Krillin, and Tien were all Goku’s rivals at one point and all participated in at least one major arc. Gohan landed some important hits in the Saiyan arc and was an important player on Namek before getting brutalized. He even got to stay relevant in the next arc and be a power player there. Videl on the other hand has some nice scenes and was a fun character, but her entire plot contribution was dragging Gohan to the tournament and getting brutalized to show how evil and weird Spopavich was. And after that fight and the following Gohan scene? She becomes about as relevant as Yamcha, contributing nothing and ceasing to even really be a character (don’t even get me started on Super’s depiction of her). She’s completely beaten out the story in a scene with suddenly realistic brutal violence before she had a chance to be a major character and doesn’t get another chance to even be a character again after.
Even Mr. Satan gets to do more (and is never brutalized the same way) in this arc. As his character proved, she doesn’t have to fight on the level of the Dragon Team or be a scientist to be relevant. Plus, Goten and Trunks accelerated the power scaling so much that if she was thrown into the Room of Spirit and Time, her catching up wouldn’t even have been unreasonable. There’s so much that could’ve been done with her without even needing to change any of the plot, and would’ve been nice to see her interact with the Dragon Team.
Oh boy, been waiting a long time to hear your thoughts on this one.
Same here
SAMMEEE; and I JUST clicked this video
Hjiuzf
"Sudden tonal shift" is now what I call my shotgun.
I know a guy who calls his "Point and Click Adventure". Had it engraved on the barrel and everything.
@@JasonGodwin69 what a nerd
LOLZ, WHO WATCHES DARGON BALL FOR TEH STORY?????
Also your hair is absolutely gorgeous!
The biggest issue is, as you say, that Videl never "comes back". She is beaten to near death, but never has a relevant moment again. She quits fighting, she becomes a dedicated mom, she's on the sideline at best and that beatdown is basically the last moment you'd see of her in action. Imagine if the Recoome fight was the last moment of Gohan doing something. Imagine, if he came back from Namek without having faced Ginyu-Goku, or Frieza (even if briefly). Imagine he just started studying and never involved himself in either the Androids or Cell arc and by the Buu arc he's just a random background character who sometimes gets a nerdy moment. That's Videl after this fight. If she, at least, had any relevance to the Buu Saga at the end, then it'd feel less bad. Like, if she accompanied Gohan to the Elder Kai and through (as cliché as it is) LOVE they'd unlock Gohan's latent potential, or if she had to stare down Buu and distract him after he absorbed Gohan for example. And have a moment where the "Gohan"-side of Buu revolts heavily and tries to beat/control Buu's body to avoid him from harming Videl. I know she has that brief moment where Piccolo tells Super Buu that she's Mr. Satan's daughter and that causes Buu to be like "mh yeah ok I'll wait", but still. If she had a more important role near the end of the Buu Saga then I think that beatdown would've not been so harrowing. Because that beatdown is the closest thing DB ever had to murder. The character doesn't die, but may as well have, since they faded into obscurity shortly after. I don't think there's another semi-important character on the good guy side who is beaten this badly AND ignored almost entirely afterwards, alongside having her personality turned from rowdy tomboy with a steely determination to demure housemommy.
It also doesn't help that Spopovich is a nothing-villain in the end. He's possibly not even sound-of-mind at that stage. It's akin to Yamcha getting exploded by a friggin' plant boy, except Yamcha once had awesome character moments in DB, and he at least is .. uh .. doing his best to stay somewhat relevant? Haha.
But she has more lines in the story...she mentions several times she likes Gohan!
I know, this was written over 25 years ago, and is no secret Toriyama doesnt know how to write women, but there is nothing wrong in seeing what he did to Videl and saying "that aint right".
This fight aint right, what they turn Videl into after this fight aint right...and we should be allowed to talk about it.
i mean Chiaotzus only battle is him losing aswell! and he probably has more potential then videl!
I think she got some more moments in the Anime and Gt and is a Full Character in FighterZ So atleast some People care about Her!
Unlike Chiaotzu only Vegeta cares about him!
so she became like chichi
@Some Weeb True!
@@Videospiel-Man5730 I was going to joke that Videl is Girl Yamcha but I just realized she's Girl Chiaotzu my Dende have mercy on her soul
I really do wish if they ever do anything with Dragonball again, they’d actually do something with the non saiyan characters. It’s honestly really frustrating how often characters like Yamcha, Tien & Piccolo get sidelined, solely so Goku can beat the main villain with another transformation, & the Videl fight with Spoppovich is a perfect example of that. She was such a cool character with a lot of potential & ever since this fight, we never see her again throughout the rest of the arc.
On a remotely related note, it also bothers me that fan-animated Dragonball sequel series tend to focus almost exclusively on Saiyans and Saiyan transformations (new and old). As nice and creative as those fan projects are, why not devote that creativity toward developing the non Saiyan or even mostly human characters? Why do the Saiyans disproportionately get so much attention, especially for a nearly extinct race that doesn't even care about its near extinction?
"solely so Goku can beat the main villain with another transformation" that only happens once, cell is killed off by gohan and majin buu was a team effort, same goes for vegeta, even if you want to count DBS goku gets zero victories against main antagonists.
This one million percent I would love to see Yamcha, Tien, Krillen, and chatzu get a spin off Anime or manga where they train the next generation. Face smaller threats or just a road trip with lots of gags. Characters like ninja Mizaki can carry an episode. An episodic affair where we get to see Dragon world again maybe learning about themselves along the way.
@@kmgyening I've always considered doing a dragon ball fan fiction where the Humans discover a power system closer to Nen with more complicated rules. Make it an offshoot of the magic which gets less attention despite being a viable tool for martial artists.
@@Ruldolphmaker Sounds interesting. I had this one idea for their humans that I put in a comment thread like 3 years back, but I can't remember all the details. Whatever it was, it would have given more focus to the humans on their Earth, and had the specific goal of giving Chi Chi, Bulma, and Videl some character development, relative to the franchise's usual Shonen battle type of conflict. Shit now I kind of wish I remembered it in its entirety.
This is the most thoughtful analysis of this moment I’ve heard. You covered just about every angle I’ve always wanted addressed. Good work.
MistareFusion your really awesome, I don't have enough money to use patreon but I do tell all the Dragon Ball fans I know to watch your channel because you are so knowledgeable but, you don't get nearly enough credit. Keep up the good work
I had no problem with the fight.
It's not because I liked seeing Videl get thrashed , but rather it reinforces the point that you better "know what what you're signing up for".
As been mentioned, only reason people seem to have issue with it, is because of the genders and their roles. Nobody really complained about Videl breaking the man's neck.
I’m glad you didn’t take the easy way out, call the fight “problematic,” and move on. Analyzing Dragon Ball’s treatment of violence and gender by current standards is the height of unenlightened laziness anyway, so it’s good that you resist what is very clearly a temptation for you.
Personally, I think that the only mistake this sequence makes is robbing us of a proper payoff for Spopovitch’s character arc. Having Bobbidi dispose of him offhandedly does too much to diminish Spopovitch’s menace and too little to enhance Bobbidi’s.
@Porfirio Rubirosa Toriyama doesn't "hate" Gohan. He just vastly prefers Goku as the main character.
@@najadamu2724 Idk I can kinda see why he thinks that though. Gohan does get shafted a few times, and having Goku take the spotlight right afterward (sometimes unnecessarily) does a disservice to Gohan's character.
I mean the fight is problematic, but unfortunately the social connotation of problematic is that it means and end all be all conversation ender of "thing bad". Instead of its actual intent of "thing has problems that are complicated and need an in depth discussion on those problems" and this vid does an excellent job of handling that discussion.
@Morph Ball what?
@Morph Ball ok but Offended != uncomfortable and u dint know why you chose that to reply to me...
Incredibly nuanced and well-thought-out take that is so lacking in today's world!
Thanks so much for another incredibly detailed Dragon Ball Dissection. I truly appreciate how articulate, detailed, thorough, and critical these videos are and this is one of your best, in my opinion.
I haven't watched the entire episode yet, but I thought you brought up a great point about media portraying violence as something that's not that big of a deal.
Largely due to dragon ball, i started taking martial arts, which lead me to competing and fighting. People who haven't been in an actual fight don't realize how brutal punching another person really is. The amount of times someone gets hit in the head and knocked unconscious in movies and such, only to just wake up like they were sleeping with no lasting effects is pretty absurd
Firstly, broken and bruised knuckles are underplayed as well. You're punching some pretty hard stuff when you sock a person in the face and that's also gonna cause injury to yourself. Violence isn't free. It costs something.
Saint Seiya portrays this stuff better than DB.
I just think it’s kind of unsatisfying that after all of the hoopla. Neither Videl nor Gohan get some vindication for this. It reminds me of a similar scene in Onepiece when Luffy fights Bellamy. Bellamy is a small fry and we could easily have moved on without ever seeing him get beat but the fact that we do see him finally get his comeuppance makes that scene all the more satisfying. But in this Videl gets beat down, Gohan swears revenge but he doesn’t even beat any of the guys. It’s not satisfying to read in my opinion.
Yeah what makes it go from brutal but dramatic fight (that i fully understand people getting icked about even if personally doesn't affect me as much) is that its obvious set up for a conclusion that never comes and inadvertently fridges Videl. I think we missed out on an amazing narrative moment of a healed up and better trained Videl doing a tag team fight with Gohan against Spopovich where they finish him off with a cool move at the same time. (Dual kamehameha maybe?) If your going to use violence like that to strengthen the bond between Videl and Gohan then it feels natural to have the arc finish with violence to show that bonds strength and how theyve grown as thats peak dragonball. But instead she just becomes yet another babymaker and just ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Tonglohng yeah every other time that happens in the series before the villain typically gets beat down in the very next scene or very soon there after at least. Ex. Goku Vs. Nappa or Goku Vs. Recoome. Tambourine gets paid back in full for killing Krillin too. But with this you just watch a brutal beat down and get no payoff. Instead of having Babidi just blow them up you could have had Gohan one shot them on the way into the ship or even maybe have Videl get a rematch where she whips out a ki blast to win after a tough fight. Any of those would have been more satisfying to read. But oh well what’s done is done.
@@holdenmuganda97 Why did Babidi even kill Spopovich? He succeeded at the mission he was given by a magnitude Babidi didn't even expect. It'd be like Frieza shooting Ginyu in the face for bringing all of the Dragon Balls to him.
@@TheAzulmagia because babidi has to be that ridiculously cruel to his workers for the story to make sense. babidi can control people using the evil in their hearts and treated all his servants like trash. but it turns out buu wasnt really evil, so babidi couldnt control him and buu killed babidi
Morph Ball yeah maybe so but in manga that’s about fighting and combat that has already set a precedent of showing nefarious villains receiving violent retribution it’s feels off when they don’t go down that route. Not to mention that that particular fight didn’t even serve much purpose. It didn’t advance Videls character, it didn’t give Gohan a chance to avenge her or any real motivation he wouldn’t have already had. Heck, it didn’t even advance Babidis plan cause they got no energy for Buu from her. It wound up being pretty pointless. Hence the gratuitous label.
And to give an example in Naruto. Neji beat down Hinata pretty badly but it motivated Naruto to avenge her. Which he did and it was a satisfying fight for that reason.
TLDR; in shows that are centered around fighting, fighting is the most satisfying conclusion to MOST conflicts. Otherwise we wouldn’t be reading battle shounens.
A big, fat, uncomfortable OOF
Great video as always though Lance!
This video made me realize that there's a lot of parallels with this fight and Gohan in the Frieza Arc.
- Got stomped on
- Received a headshot
- Put the enemy on the back foot temporarily (several times for Gohan)
- Almost suffered a fatal injury
- Very resilient and fought until the end of their fight
- Gohan gets angry because someone they care about is getting messed up
- Senzu bean to recovery
Videl becoming a background character after this fight is what always bothered me.
@Mecha Troy
Yeah she could've been combatant, but alas wasn't meant to be I guess.
Okay, write in Videl from this point on so she can be a main-stay.
Should’ve been expected at this point. No one lasts other than the golden ones.
Toriyama pretty much shelved the character where Toei gave her little spotlight moments every time she appeared in a movie.
@@gespenst1329movie 11?
You're right that this fight is more about motivating Gohan's character than Videl's but the thing is, it hardly even does that much because Gohan himself gets sidelined for most of the remainder of the story too.
God, you are amazing at this. You somehow addressed these sensitive subjects in such a tactful and respectful way that I’d be pressed to find something I could see a reasonable person being upset with you about. I agree with just about everything you said because you back everything up with actual evidence from the series, cultural phenomena, and other events in fiction. This series is great and this episode was outstanding despite the difficulty of this specific subject matter.
If Toriyama wanted to make people hate Spopovich there, he definitely succeeded.
it did make his death that good bit more satisfying. And his character that much more tragic when you think about how he was supposedly a pretty nice normal guy before being hopped up on demon magic and being turned into a woman beating psycho.
To be fair, I would also be pretty mad if a girl kicked my head 180 degrees
@Porfirio Rubirosa - Yes, but it's also a horseshoe theory thing because hardline traditionalists don't like to see women in fights either, along with the hardcore radfem types on the opposite end. Even from a less ideologically rigid perspective, there's something about the proximity of women to violence as a situation that makes people across the spectrum uncomfortable. Maybe they shouldn't be, but it's certainly there.
Personally I don't like to see pretty women get hurt in real life, and sure that's sexist, but it's a gut reaction not a highly constructed ideological point. In fiction though, you can't have women in fighting scenarios and then not have them get hit back. There are all sorts of things that are acceptable in fiction that wouldn't be in real life.
The scene absolutely works for its intended purpose. If it didn't read as disturbing it wouldn't work well.
I found what Mistare said about Videl pulling the trigger first very interesting, its common place for Villains in Dragon Ball to be the perpetrators of gruesome acts of violence, while the Dragon Team usually engages in normal fisticufs and total disintegration at worst but always as a retaliation. Videl's neck-twisting kick is depicted in a more goofy way than the beating she ends up getting though, the point certainly gets through, they are the villains and Videl got too cocky but I end up wanting to see more of Videl's personality and Spopovich's sadistic nature, more dialogue or characterization between them would have helped.
@@ForwardSynthesis The thing that makes it work is that the violence is pretty real by the series' standards at that point. Plus, women fighting in general is an unnatural thing for people in the first place, and that is made much worse by the fact that he could have just won the fight, but chose to torture her instead. And also, it's difficult for people to take the broken neck seriously when the character basically ignores it completely like it never even happened.
Anyway, I think in that moment, Toriyama's intention was to make people hate Spopovich, and clearly he succeeded. At the same time, the scenes do the opposite of glorifying violence against women, so the people that want to find a message in everything should have no reason to complain either. The violence is real and makes people uncomfortable, and I that's a good thing, because that is a valid thing for fiction to want to do.
Still, I don't feel like it's all that special by the standards of the overall series, because the other human characters got brutalized many times before to set the new villains up, so it was just Toriyama repeating what he did to other characters before. It was just him returning to one of his old habits. This only shocks people more because Videl is female, which is fine, and because it was the most real depiction of violence since the Recoome fight, and the first destruction of a human character since Yamcha got impaled. It may shock people and make them uncomfortable, but clearly, it was meant to do that. No reason to complain about it, because it was not supposed to be a fun fight like the others.
Great episode Lance! Truly superb.
I love Dragon Ball Dissection generally speaking, but this time you kicked the ball out of the park. Congrats again.
This was a well researched and fairly nuanced handling of the topic, kudos.
I like the headcanon where Gohan was traumatized by his fight with the Ginyu Force and that's why Saiyaman is the way he is lol
Great analysis. Fantastic job looking at it from so many different perspectives.
I really love how many angles you analyze DB from and how you deconstruct controversial issues in it to get to the true meaning behind them, it's amazing how well you handle hotspots like this one and the one around Mr. Popo, it's pretty dang illuminating.
Also, your hair is gorgeous!
Spopovich versus video was def overly brutal but I don’t know if I’d call it the MOST brutal when things like Vegeta/krillen/gohan versus recoome is a thing. Recoome was dragigin vegeta and broke a 5 year olds neck
Same. Honestly if it werent fot Videl being a girl, I dont think people would be nearly as harsh about it.
I get that she isn't as seasoned as heroes, but still. That said, i eill admit i was shocked myself when i saw this. Not as much as others but yea.
ChaddyFantome yeah if she was a guy it wouldn’t have been as much an issue
ChaddyFantome it’s still pretty brutal but yeah I think the fact she’s a girl makes people look at it different. Nobody cares if it’s a guy for sure
There's an image set floating around of many of the more graphic injuries in dragon ball with male characters replaced with female characters, and it shows that we all have a double standard.
Watch the whole video first, he explains it
What I hate about this fight is the amount of people in the fandom that think "oh yeah i miss the good ol' days where they could beat up a WOMAN in Dragon Ball and no one would bat an eye!" it just gives the wrong idea that DB is all about needless violence.
Love you Mistare Fusion!!! Keep up the great work!
I said it once, I'll say it again: Your writing is nothing short of masterful. There's a flow and grace to it; a grace that isn't without impact and weight, too. From the serious to the mundane, you have the art of writing in its essence Lance! Thank you so much for another awesome episode!
(I always grab a small snack before watching. Or tea. :D )
Spopovich was really bout gender equality in this one😳
Equal rights and lefts
Spopovich said “EQUAL RIGHTS ✨💅🏾”
@Porfirio Rubirosa why complain? He's a man so its okay if 18 can brutally beat down any man and has
@Porfirio Rubirosa To be fair, Vegeta is an asshole and kinda had it coming for repeatedly letting the Androids awaken even when people are telling him "No, it's a bad idea."
@@TheAzulmagia videl was too proud for her own good
One thing people need to realise is that the Tenkaichi Budokai has ALWAYS been a mixed gender, mixed weight class, mixed martial art tournament (with mixed age groups only being a very recent redaction).
This actually makes the tournament itself rather progressive in both the ways it doesnt discriminate against women (It doesnt pull any condescending crap like "tHe wOmAn gETs a fReE pUnCH") that mixed martial arts events used to be quite the rare novelty due to the drama around the infamous Muhammad Ali vs Antonio Inoki match.
Ultimately Videl consented to this and continued to consent by not taking the option of giving up which was openly avaliable to her at anytime during the match.
The problem is that "progressives" generally do not want gender equality. They want gender equality in name, but still have rules where women may hit men but men may not hit women. It's just that we're supposed to call that gender equality. It's double-think.
BTW the Tenkaichi Budoukai was even more "progressive" since it was actually mixed species as well. It did not even discriminate on species.
"Progressive" ? Or dumb ? It's children fighting grown-ass men :P
@@oneheckofabanana2016 You're making up a hypothetical person to villify an entire group. The "Progressives" you're talking about don't exist.
@@keerokamiya9126 keep in mind that prior to Satan's involvement with the tournaments, kids shooting laser beams wasnt exactly unheard of.
@@rhysjonsmusic yeah "Kids" in that context being Goku and Krillin. Hardly the average
Videl's never giving up mentally and everything happening around it like the crowd's reactions and especially Gohan's, makes it one of my favorite fights for sure. Great video Lance!
God I’ve been waiting for this! I love this series so much
The author of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Hirohiko Araki said this when he was writing the 6th part of Jojo which had the series first female protagonist...
"The protagonist of JoJo Part 6 is a woman. Why a 『woman』? That's where it gets tricky.
She's a JoJo protagonist, so she's gotta be tough enough to not get disheartened even if she gets punched in the face. But sometimes she might be crawling around a ditch, or she might have her legs spread open and fall from the top of a building. Having it be a woman is a bit of a tricky setup.
But thinking about that gap, it actually seemed interesting. And it could be a person with great humanity like the Virgin Mary. I felt I just had to make the protagonist a woman".
And when writing P6 Araki pulled no punches. Jolyne's injuries are arguably some of the worst of any Jojo protagonist. Now mind you some are probably going to say that Jolyne is a superpower freak unlike Videl.
I haven't seen Part 6, but if Joylene suffers worse injuries than Jonathan (getting his arm broken, neck broken, carteroid atery pulled out, throat pierced, DYING) or Joseph (getting horrifically injured in both Whammu fights, Kars melting his knee and cutting his hand off) or Jotaro (too many fights to count but the DIO fight was especially bad with the knives and broken bones from The World Punches) or Josuke (again, too many fights to count, but the Kira fight was especially brutal with him getting impaled in the leg and side) that will be quite the feat.
@@PlanetZoidstar Jolyne goes through a lot of shit. Look forward to the Planet Waves fight.
(Spoilers)
I honestly don't really like how he handled Jolyne she quite literally never takes the offensive victory without help and rarely at that, in fact she does not do so against the main antagonist once. And of course she is weirdly sexualized to a degree (not one I think is worth cancelling or much more different than the other protagonists) of which where another major characters relationship with her is simply that he wants to bone her and she isn't interested. This and she is a reactionary character unlike Johnny or Giorno where they set the plot in motion of their own accord she simply wants to not be wronged and live her life like the other jojos. She also seemingly lacks the heart of gold the other jojos have as well.
@@excalibur2772
Every Jojo from P5-onward is pretty cold hearted and brutally kills their enemies. Also Jolyne is trying to get back her fathers memories and stand back, her goal makes her pretty easy to sympathize with.
Im not sure what's wrong with Jolyne needing help to beat her enemies. Seriously, what's wrong with that?
When it comes to Gio he literally loses all his presence as the story continues. Araki had a habit of having the main jojo's from P3-5 get overshadowed by a various members of the main cast.
If you ask me Jolyne was the first Jojo since Joseph that owned her part and felt like protagonist of her story.
I'm gonna link this review on Stone Ocean is pretty good
m.ruclips.net/video/6HYD7CGrjRI/видео.html
@@TheAzulmagia Planet Waves is my favorite fight in Stone Ocean. One of the few Jojo fights after BT, that had some hand-to-hand combat.
One thing I'm somewhat missing here is a discussion on Goku's perspective here (and to a lesser extent Vegeta's). Goku seems to treat it purely as an honourable tournament match. "Oh, it's fine, he's not gonna kill her, because that's against the rules!" But I think, aside from Piccolo jr. Dragon Ball has kind of always separated the tournament battles, which were more for honour (or gag fights), from the battles of life and death, to save planets, and so on. There's no honour in battles for the sake of the planet or your own life. Piccolo and Krillin have no trouble teaming up against Nappa or attacking him from behind. Vegeta, Gohan, and Krillin don't exactly play honourable or fair either against the Ginyu force. But this fight blurs that separation. Spopovitch clearly doesn't care one bit about honourable battles. It's a fight filled with torture and sadism, rather than respect and efficiency. While Tenshinhan was also a villain, his fights with Jackie Chun and Goku were also about honour, there was an underlying respect underneath it, and to defend the honour of their respective schools. And Goku's insistence on treating it as a purely honourable tournament match where Spopovitch happens to cheat, and his insistence on Videl having to surrender rather than fight back and try to find a way to win, makes it uncomfortable to me. It doesn't seem to fit Goku's character to jump to the surrender button at the first sign of trouble (when he clearly didn't do the same when suspecting Tenshinhan of cheating), and to this day I still can't really figure out why Toriyama decided to give Goku that perspective other than to give Gohan an excuse not to step in immediately. Goku wasn't nearly as forgiving or carefree when Tenshinhan broke Yamcha's leg. Granted, he had more of a connection to Yamcha than to Videl, but still... it does make Goku seem awfully blind to the atmosphere. And his insistence on fighting fairly against Buu (and Vegeta's similar insistence) seems equally absurd. There's supposed to be a difference between honourable combat in a tournament match and a warzone, and it seems as if Goku understood that better as a kid than as an adult in this arc.
I'm glad someone else brought up Goku being oddly out of character in that scene. There's a difference between an honorable fight in a tournament and just using the ring as a platform for torture.
Morph Ball it’s odd that he says to surrender tho
Goku was a kid who has never faced death except for 1 who wasnt closed to him and he just barely knew the dead can be restored but when goku is an adult he faced worse, he has a hole blown through his chest in the ring as well as been killed, hell everyone who he knows has died and he knows in the end they can be brought back, he most likely said that so gohan doesnt kill spopovich who we know will regret killing spopovich later on. Whats worse is piccolo's insistence of goku being the 'bad guy' when making gohan fight, piccolo had no right, goku knew what to do, he needed someone to protect the earth in his place when hes gone and he learnt that gohan will be the one from when future gohan was talked of, he also knew that gohan has to fight to the death in one-on-one because he cant protect the earth if he needs babying all the time, gohan has to learn how to fight by himself just as he did when he was 11-15, his only excuse was 'he doesnt like fighting' gohan needs to learn fighting isnt something thats just there for you to leave and pick up whenever you want and that you need to fight to protect which is something future gohan learnt the hard way, the same thing wouldve happened to present gohan, what future gohan lacked was someone like goku who placed all his skills, power and hopes into during the training in the hyperbolic timechamber, goku knew gohan had the power which is something gohan was told while the future version wasnt, goku was a martial arts expert he taught gohan alot in the chamber, in the end this doesnt matter as gohan fails to live up to goku's hopes and have the right mindset and when he is given the power he misuses it in the battle against super buu, which goku learnt the hardway which shows that gohan failed and goku did what was needed and was correct in the end
@@Tektabyte What? I'm not sure I can actually understand that wall of, like two or three or so very long sentences?
@Morph Ball Because aside from his fight with Cell, Goku always continued fighting even when hope was faint and dire, and not just when people's lives were at stake. Also when fighting foes like Jackie Chun, Giran, or Tenshinhan. Giving up at the first sign of trouble has never been Goku's style. And same for encouraging others, when Krillin had to fight Piccolo in a tournament match Goku didn't tell Krillin to give up right away, he told Krillin to give it his all.
This is one of your best videos. Thank you for such great content!
This was a really great episode you touched on so much so well and clearly you've improved so much and you were already great when you started dragon ball dissection
Holy shit the EARLIEST I've ever been to a MistareFusion video in my life!!
I really do wish they did more with Videl. Imagine her being a more melee-based fighter, using martial arts and being highly physically aggressive, instead of focussing on ki since she didn't pick it up quickly, like Goten. I'm not asking for her to be at Goku levels, but I do wish she had more than one battle, she was such an entertaining character for me.
Wow fantastic analysis! Seriously one of my favorite DBD to date
great video princess-sama! loved your comparative analysis within the series
OK before anyone jumps down my throat I realise the videl v spopovitch fight is insanely brutal and in the real world is an awful thing
However dragonball is a series we're martial artist is a legit lifestyle
Videl willingly entered and since there doesn't seem to be weight/gender divisions it was a forgone conclusion she'd get hurt
Could have given her more of a fight.
@@SomeRandomDude000000 could have given Yamcha and Krillin much of a fight.
I wouldn't mind seeing her get another proper fight. I mean...unlike every other character she doesn't have beam attacks and can fly but it takes effort....So we could have gotten some retro-Dragonball esque fights where people were mostly on the ground. She certainly seems like a better fighter than her dad.
I for one fully agree. Shonen tends to have a problem where we dont get to see enough of the girls getting to actually fight especially to this level. As a woman myself i do like seeing my own love for martial arts and hyperviolent action represented in fights like this.
However, the fight does still jave its problems mostly with the material surrounding it in tone shifts and immediate sidelining of videl and the incredibly dumb "He won't hold back cause your a FEMALE" line.
Its a complex scene that does necessetate the discourse around it
@@tonglohng995 The reason for that is that shounen manga are targeted at teenage boys. The very word shounen means "teenage boy" in japanese. That's the reason why 99% of shounen protagonists are teenage boys and there aren't many girls in big roles. (Early Goku, Naruto, Luffy, Ichigo, Deku, Gon and yadda yadda).
Simmillarly, there is shoujo manga, which are targeted at teenage girls. (Sailor Moon being the biggest example.) In shoujo we have the opposite thing happening. 99% of main characters are teenage girls and the men are always dads, love interests or villains.
I'm not saying that girls can't like or enjoy shounen, i like shoujo myself and i'm certainly not either a teenager or a girl. I'm just stating the reason why this sort of stuff happens. Weather it's a problem or not, that's another discussion.
I was always so confused to find out people apparently had such visceral opinions about the Videl fight tbh. Almost entirely because, well, it's MEANT to be graphically disturbing and make you feel uncomfortable. The characters IN UNIVERSE certainly feel disturbed and uncomfortable. You can't really criticize an element of a story for doing something when it's clear that that emotion was the intended reaction is was specifically attempting to evoke.
I also think when it comes to analysing the way discussion on the internet works that there is an element of ecelebrity to which opinions get spread as being commonly held. Admit it or not, most people who bring up this scene negatively are referring to the video MasakoX did about it. Most people who dislike Dark Souls 2 refer to Matthewmitosis' video about it. Ect. They are reiterating an opinion they heard from someone who has a reasonable degree of renown in internet terma whose opinion has a larger community impact.
The cynical view of that is they're thoughtlessly regurgitating an opinion they were told to have because its seemingly a popular one. But reasonably speaking, sometimes you can have a certain feeling or opinion about something but not really be able to articulate it, and then seeing someone else talk about that thing can provide you the words to finally express what you did always feel but had difficulty expressing in a reasoned communicable way. I dont think anyone who didnt ALREADY feel upset about the Videl fight came away from watching that MasaskoX video about it deciding to parrot his stated opinions from that video. But even so, there does feel an element of "the popular guy said it so thats the way we're supposed to think about it" which does little to further discussion.
I appreciate that these videos exist primarily to encourage people to think for themselves and come to their own conclusions about a topic. You do a really good job of looking at things from every reasonable angle even if you dont agree with it and try to give it as much credit as possible before presenting your own thoughts. It cuts down on the internet trend of "WELL THE VIDEO MAN SAID IT SO THAT'S THE WAY IT IS!" you sometimes unfortunately get with internet discussions.
Excellent work, one of your best videos so far.
I don’t think you truly will ever understand what kind of genuine excitement erupts from the bottom of my stomach all the way to the top of my head when the notification shows up on my phone. I always jump when I see it!!!!
if Dragonball violence was even slightly closer to the level of violence used with videl it could have been a less messy way of demonstrating how dangerous the new threats were.
As you said, one of the bigger problematic aspects is that the brutality of Videl is that it wasn't even for Videl, it was for Gohan and for the plot motivation. It's a common trope of a woman being hurt for the sake of motivation, however make no mistake I'm in no way implying that Toriyama, in some act of mustache twirling wickedness, wrote this to be a deliberately cartoon-ish act of sexism but it's something that happens a lot in nearly all forms of narrative based story telling. However it's not to say Character "death's" being used as another characters motivation is an alien concept in dragon ball but usually it's done with tonal consistency and lasting impact, where as this sets up for a serious act of retribution at the hands of our hero's that never comes. Videls wounds all get healed, Spopovich just kind of dies on whim of someone else, and Gohan's motivation for avenging Videl dies with it. After that it's all jokes until certain events (M.V.) down the line but otherwise it seems to almost serve no purpose, cut this scene from the story and nothing is really lost beyond Videl getting her ego put in check which probably could have happened in a fight with Gohan, hell that might have been better, a bit of a Chi-Chi versus Goku call back with maybe Gohan going a bit light at first to not bruise her ego. Lastly I think a lot of this would have been way more palatable if this wasn't the "death" of Videl's motivation as a martial artists as well, one loss basically turns her off fighting for life and beyond maintaining the ability to fly she's effectively done as a fighter and sadly as for the rest of series, a character.
Just having videl in person being around a full strength fight between any of the main fighters would be enough of a ego check ffs
One credit I'll give the anime is that they let Videl have one last hurrah, if only in the form of a bit of cockiness the 13th movie. If I recall, she even gets to fire off a basic ki blast, suggesting she continued training beyond just learning how to fly.
It's a shame none of this really translates over into the main canon, but it's better than nothing.
@Porfirio Rubirosa Read the whole statement, not just the first sentence.
To Quote:" However it's not to say Character "death's" being used as another characters motivation is an alien concept in dragon ball but usually it's done with tonal consistency and lasting impact, where as this sets up for a serious act of retribution at the hands of our hero's that never comes.Videls wounds all get healed, Spopovich just kind of dies on whim of someone else, and Gohan's motivation for avenging Videl dies with it."
My problem is not that Videl's treatment is sexist, it's that it's useless. At best it's a motivation that drops being the driving force for any other characters almost as soon as it's established (she gets healed right after and Spopovich just gets offed by Babidi so Gohan doesn't even get any form of retribution for what he did to her in any form what-so-ever), her character having no growth beyond this or having such an act be a motivation for her own sense of growth is never used, and it really doesn't do anything for Spopovich other then establish he's "the bad guy".
And for all that you mentioned, every one of those characters found motivation or a purpose after death and said death for some of them became a motivation for later character growth. So yes, Krillian has died for Goku's sake at least twice but he's always had some aspect within the plot or participation within the story, however minor it may have been, and the same can easily said about the other's you've listed. Videl on the other hand just becomes a complete background element for whom this fight, the only cannon fight she gets, means nothing for her character or the overall plot.
@Porfirio Rubirosa Either quote my own words to prove your case that my "true issue" has to due with gender and that if it were any male character I'd be okay with it or stop making assumptions based on what you wish for me to be saying, you seem to be arguing with an idea rather then anything i outright said. Nothing I said noted "girl being brutalized in fiction = bad fiction". Brutality, rape, and murder all occurs within real life and thus occurs in story telling, it's sadly inevitable, but within fiction the creator(s) ALWAYS have a choice in how it is presented and how they wish it to effect the overall story. For example male rape is all to often treated as a punchline or something that can't "really happen", a sexual pervert harassing people is also to often treated like a joke especially if they're old, creators CHOOSE how to present information. Is Mr.Satan suddenly got into a fight where he had his Afro torn from his scalp, his arm slowly broken as if it's contorted, and his teeth shattered as his face is repeatedly slammed against a street curb as our villain stomps on the back of his head, people would be upset. BUT if he kicks kicked through a building and after a bunch of smoke clears away showing that same level of injury suddenly with no visual indication of how it happened, except with him having a cartoon-ish band-aide and a over-sized tear rolling down his face while he has an inner monologue in which he thinks "Boy that's going to sting in the morning!", then people laugh because it's presented as a joke. Imagine if the former occurred during the Cell Games during his match and Cell just went full torturer mode, then afterwards we never see him again, he doesn't even throw the head of 16 to Gohan, he's just a background element, keeping the same relevant levels of Videl. Most people would say "wow that was needlessly cruel and pointless" and that's my point there's no reason to have this here, for all the good it did, Videl could have been replaced with a puppy Gohan recently befriended while on the island that the tournament took place that Spopovitch kicked on his way to the ring of his match with some other nameless fighter whom he beats in one hit. Serves the same purpose to the narrative so why not, it's the Hirohiko Araki special.
As for the purpose of the character, I mean the overall story and in truth, assuming you count DBS, they all are still fighting. But if you don't I mean their deaths didn't stop them form fighting, Krillin died to Drum, did he stop fighting after he got revived, no, was he a major powerhouse, also no, but did he participate in the story and fulfill a purpose beyond being background fodder, undeniable yes. Holding off the Sayjins, gathering the Dragon balls on Namek, sparing 18, and a lot more. I could make the same argument for Piccalo, Tien-shin-han, etc... And even then they had moments before they died, even if it was short Krillin was a serious rival for goku, yamacha helped with the dragon balls, Hell even chi-chi in a non direct way showed Yamcha Goku's tail weakness which saved everyone at the ending of the first arc, but Videl... nothing except I guess telling Gohan there was a tournament. Now I'm not saying she needed to go Super Sayajin Twenty-Three and use some Mystic Vagina power to kill the entirety of Babbidi and crew in one massive queef, just something.
As to your last point, it's not about fighting and losing, it's about losing and giving up. Something no other protagonist in dragon ball has ever done. Remember even Yamcha went to fight in the cell games, freaking Yamcha.
@Porfirio Rubirosa
"I don't care about DBS so I'm sticking with DBZ and I don't know where all this male rape and brutality stuff came from but I'll try to keep it short."
Was reference to what is below.
"You and many others wouldn't have given a damn if it were some random guy like Hercule getting all fucked up motivating others to become stronger because of their friends dying and later not being relevant to the main story."
It was in reference to a later point about presentation of character and authorial/artistic intent, where the reception towards horrible things happening to the characters is based around how they are presented. Cartoon-ish portrayal of violent acts versus a more realistic portrayal of the scenario determines how we as the audience see various issues as presented to us by the writer, in this case poorly. In addition as a counterpoint towards your original accusation of how my original statement was secretly sexist (" but it's not okay to beat up Videl to motivate Gohan (and the audience) to beat up Spopovitch even more just cause Videls a girl?? Now who's the sexist!") when my real issue is presentation of the scene and how it's overall useless. Change Videl's sex and make her a guy while cutting out the flirting scenes and my issue would still stand, cokcy fighter gets humbled, we get assurance on He-del and Gohan's relationship, and then He-del doesn't do much of anything or serve any purpose for the rest of the series, not even minor contributions for further motivation of Gohan, she's nothing but a waste. Hell Maron, Krillan's semi-out-of-nowehre kid serves a better purpose by being a reason for Krillian to be concerned and 18 to be protective. But what does Videl do after this, nothing, she's no-one's motivation except for Gohan which goes away after all of five minutes before being forgotten about, she has no motivation of her own besides worrying for Gohan, Gohan doesn't even seem to care enough about her to let her know he's not dead, she serves no purpose to the story, take her out and you barely lose anything.
Gohan gets beat up a lot but as you said he always gets back up and keeps fighting, the same can be said of the others, as they may not deal the killing blow or even even be able to deal damage but showing them being there trying to do anything for sake the world even at the cost of their lives shows an aspect of their character. Contribution doesn't mean their power levels match, it means they actually do something. And as far as Videl is concerned,after this match, she has no purpose, she's humbled into obscurity.
This is one of the best DBD episodes ever. Amazing video.
Well well well...
I made it to the end.
I was unaware this series was ongoing.
Now I'm sad I caught up lol
I have literally binged this entire playlist.
It looks like YOU are going to get my first tap of the bell icon.
I literally never do that but I'll be damned if I miss a video lol
Again thank you very much for this.
This reminds me a lot of Uraraka's fight against Bakugo in MHA. Everyone is pissed the guy isn't going easy on the girl and they're promptly shut down for it. Thing is that there, the girl remains integral to the story (she's still sidelined a bit but the development is still there). Videl, who was set up to be a major player, is completely taken out of commission for the rest of this series and the continuations.
Plus MHA has more than two female fighters.
@@toontrooper4103 I remember that too and how Bakugo said, "What part of that girl was fragile?" which was a major sign of respect from him.
This fight also reminds me of hinata vs neji. Great comparison with mha. Its an example of creators building off of what inspired them.
Difference is in MHA the fight was done to prove just how far Uraraka had come, putting off a good fight against Bakugo, one of the top two students at the time, and actually making him get serious.
Here, Videl fights off a random bad guy to get sidelined and prove the oppossite: how far outmatched she is by any of this.
Basically, in MHA, those who were saying "go easy on her" were proven wrong, while here, they were proven right
@@Unknownslenderman Yeah you can do fights with girls even ones where they lose and get their ass handed to them. Even some where it gets brutal. Its all in the writing around it. And the aftermath of Videl drops the ball hard.
Tonglohng
What do you expect from someone like videl in long run? She was clearly set up to force Gohan to enter the Tournament. Goten and Trunks having ability to go ssj and Gohan commenting on how he will be left behind and Vegeta saying he's been waiting for an opportunity to fight Goku were clear indicators of who was gonna be a major player. Remember that in DB the stakes always get bigger and escalation too.
The spopovich fight caps off her character arc in any case
The most violent acts in DBZ are probably those guys that go around killing people and dogs for fun in the Boo saga.
It's Buu ... you clown Majin, BUU lol
keero kamiya his name is spelled different in different languages
@@keerokamiya9126 It's spelled Boo in the VIZ Media
English translation of the manga.
This is one of your best videos to date. Stay amazing, friend.
Damn this was a good episode. Loved hearing your thoughts on these chapters and the Videl scene.
You're the only dragon ball youtuber that applies actual nuance and thoughtfulness. Toriyama writing is full of problematic stuff. And the community makes it very difficult to discuss these topics without being shouted down. How I see it, Toriyama wrote each chapter without knowing what the next chapter will be. I think Tori wanted to show how strong and strange Spopovitch is by him beating Videl. From the audience propective, Videl is one of the strongest humans on the planet. But if that was the case, why is the fight so brutal? I think Tori wanted to shock his audience in preparation for Vegeta's heel turn.
Tis the shit. :). But what about plague of gripes? Does a lot of art too, but he also has some pretty solid dbz analysis (imo).
@@CptGhost-cg7kj I'd say the difference is Plague doesn't want to known for it lol.
Yeah a big problem in media analysis ive found is Problematic=Bad bs. And this video handled the complicated topic incredibly well even if i personally disagree on some points.
@@CptGhost-cg7kj Plague of gripes would be one of them, if he wanted too. I loved his fan fiction arc for Gohan. It was emotionally moving and objectively better use for Gohan's character.
@@tonglohng995 Problematic doesn't equal bad. But it isn't good either. Keyword is "problem" in problematic. It is something that can't ignore or be "solved" easily. The best solution is to have open discussions and be upfront with it.
Instead of shouting "you're over-reacting, over analyzing, reading too much into it, etc, etc".
The thing is, people are highly tribal when it comes to entertainment they enjoy. And by pointing out problematic things within their entertainment media. They take it as an attack onto themselves and character.
Great video, as always.
I'm firmly in the camp of "this fight makes me uncomfortable" and I never really realized how much of that comes down to the sudden realism and not the acts of violence themselves. Although in my case, really liking Videl certainly added a lot to that sentiment. ;)
Speaking of - RIP Videl as an actual character. She deserved better and I'm still salty that she got effectively kicked out of the story so quickly. I stand by my opionion that Gohan Goes To Highschool would've been the best post-Saiyan DB story arc.
@Nils Bt
Your reason for taking issue with this is evidence that my assertion about only egotistical moral busy-bodies being the only ones taking issue with Videl's match is incorrect.
Because your issue was in the conveyance of the fight, not the fight itself. And on top of that, like the rest of us Videl fans part of your issue stems from the fact that she gets side-lined after this. I mean 18 continued the tournament, and got to fight in the ToP in Super, and even in GT, 18 contributed to Super 17's defeat. And what does Videl get? She's sidelined as a wife and mother... It's a shame really.
So awesome for another episode
Excelent episode as always!, keep it up!
I feel alot of people will agree with me on the reasons the Videl vs. Spopovich fight is so jarring for many, as I list the following points:
1. Videl's beatdown is thoroughly one-sided soon as she breaks Spopovich's neck, so she's not taken down in a way that retains her dignity. It's like Frieza vs. Vegeta where one of them if being brutalised and cannot even fight back.
2. Videl's beatdown is used to further GOHAN'S character and give HIM added motivation. As much as, if not MORE focus, is put on how Videl's beatdown affects GOHAN. HE is the one who we keep cutting back to, getting increasingly MORE angry. It feels like Videl is being used to push GOHAN'S character, not her own.
3. After Videl is beaten unconscious, she ceases to be an active participant in the story. Her relevance to the story ends here. From here on she stops being a fighter and becomes Gohan's passive, aimless gilrfriend. She doesn't change or grow as a character from this beating...Except maybe becoming more gentle and soft?
4. Videl is one of very few female characters in the show who are active fighters who are involved in the plot. And this fight effectively removes Videl from the story. She is only relevant past this point as Gohan's love interest, later husband, and then as Pan's mother.
Toriyama set up Videl to be someone important to the story...But ultimately she ends up as a means to an end. Make Gohan angry and give him someone to have hybrid-Saiyan children with. Any one of these negatives would be bad enough, but all of them? Videl got done dirty. Ultimately her presence does little to affect the overall plot of the story, past here she may as well not be there...Except so Pan can exist.
It's the same to Trunks. Toriyama completely shitted on Yamcha to give us another Saiyan even though Vegeta has no social life
Maybe she just got some reality check, she never treated Gohan like a demigod who could explode her by lifting a finger, she was just like Chichi, thinking everything is just a bunch of fake fights and Goku and Gohan are just very strong humans, and realized how wrong she was.
And i don't see a problem with her quitting fighting, it's not like being a mother is worse than fighting people in tournaments, and Videl was just a side character, not important to the story whatsoever, it's just natural she got removed
@@KayderimGameplays Thing is though you would think with how tenacious and driven Videl is to be a capable fighter she would take her loss as motivation to get stronger. Roshi, Krillin, Yamcha and Tien are proof that humans can still become capable fighters who kept pace with Goku and Gohan for a long time...But one loss and Videl retires from fighting entirely. Up until that point she took pride in being a strong fighter, but suddenly she throws in the towel for good.
I'm fine with Videl becoming a mother, but that's ALL she becomes once her role in the story effectively ends. Videl loses all agency she used to have and stops being an active participant in the plot. Videl was quite important to Gohan's character arc but ultimately she becomes a plot device to further his development....And so Pan can exist.
@@PlanetZoidstar But Videl didn't have any motivation to become stronger to begin with, she is literally a human who is slightly stronger than Mr Satan that enjoyed fighting criminals (human level) and only wanted to Fly because Gohan was also able to, i never saw her desiring to become stronger as Krillin, Yamcha and co. Krillin trained pretty much his entire life with Master Roshi and is still a joke who got killed multiple times and can't beat any villain whatsoever, i can't imagine where Videl, who has barely any Ki control would fit in this story, she would have to enter the hyperbolic time chamber like 20 times to catch up with the rest
Like i said, Videl wasn't important to the plot to begin with, i dare say even Mr Satan is more important than her, she was just there to blackmail Gohan into teaching her to fly and retiring after getting her ass handed and realizing that she would never, she is just ChiChi 2.0, and there's nothing wrong with that, i still rather she being a caring mother than the cunt who threatened Gohan with spreading his secret and possibly ruining his social life, and at least she's not brain dead like ChiChi and is actually self aware of the threats earth have.
And i don't think she was that important for Gohan other than marrying him and having Pan, he got mad when she got beaten half to death but that's it, the rest of Gohan story resolved around he becoming Mystic and Videl's beating was never mentioned again, so yeah..
If Gohan would be the main character as Toryama intended, that could work, but the guy got tossed to the side himself after fighting super boo.. That's why i prefer One Piece over DBZ
@@Yazanico Yeah, I mean the trend in killing off or sidelining a woman to further a man's story is as old as Ancient Greece, like Medea being killed to kickstart Heracles' 12 Labours, or Eurydice being killed so Opheus can go rescue her from the Underworld, it's a very old trope but seeing it happen so blatant in Dragonball is just sad.
I agree that Videl stops being relevant past this point is adding insult to injury. Toriyama also strikes me as a rather Conservative guy when it comes to Gender roles. Plus he's Japanese and their culture is even more conservative when it comes to gender roles.
In Dragonball the women rarely get to go outside of the Love Interest/Mother role. Bulma luckily is a scientific genius and 18 is still a very powerful fighter in her own right, but they are the exception to the rule. Chi Chi became a vessel for Mom jokes given how strict, overbearing and harsh she becomes soon as she becomes a mother. It makes it seem the guy doesn't think women, overall, should exist outside of the domestic role.
But I'd say Kishimoto handles this alot worse than Toriyama. Since he plays it straight and not for laughs. You could argue Toriyama playing it for laughs doesn't make it better, but at least then you can argue it's the stereotype that is being made fun of, not women as a whole.
Just finished
Definitely one of the best DBD episodes, made me realize that you could simply fix videl if you gave her a subplot that didn't need mega power energy laser beams super saiyan 7s and instead focused on more accessible tasks
For example you could've given kid trunkses role of getting the dragon radar to her and it wouldn't change really anything besides videl *doing something*
Bulma is good at solving the housewives problem in db since she's important in pretty much every arc, so taking a bit of screentime from her and giving it over to videl could really improve her character
Also just great vid discussion aside. Ive loved this series for some time now and its a treat anytime you upload
you know a video is well made when the video is 32 minutes long, but only feels like a 10 minute video. keeps your attention the whole time and time flies by. definitely one of your best videos. there’s something to be said about the quality level of youtube channels, and yours is definitely one of high quality
What I feel this video gets right up to, but doesn't quite put together, is the discomfort of the series choosing to dish out the noted tonal/presentation shift for one of its sole female fighters. (And that it becomes, in addition, the end of her arc, but you do cover that at length.) It works out the presentation shift in the fight; it works out the real-world issues surrounding the gender dynamic; I'm not sure it quite works out that the two happen to come in tandem, and how different that is from either coming on its own. As pointed out, Super gives us examples of female characters engaging in serious action on the scope and scale of the men, but whose action is also handled with the series' usual heightened tone. Bizarrely, however, the video seems to make the case that this only works because the series is bloodless. The Super anime may not have blood, but even if it did--and its manga counterpart isn't lacking, so we don't have to wonder--their exchanging blows with the guys would elicit nowhere near the reaction Videl's does because it's presented within the series' usual, heightened norm. See also: GT Pan, who isn't spared visible injury, but against whom violence has never generated the same level of discomfort because it remains in tone. It is visible, it is violent, but it is not suddenly accompanied by real-world consequence. Women in DB can, and have been, outside of the original manga, recepients of its usual flavor of comic-book-esque graphic violence. Videl, uniquely, in this fight, is the recepient of something else.
It may be an accident--a means to an end to increase Spopovich's threat, as you said. But the target, and the fact that the series only makes this switch in presention *for* that target--one of the few female fighters in the original run--who never rises past it, as you note--renders it hard to digest.
I love the Boo arc, but I certainly don't feel this scene comes across as anything close to well-considered by its end.
That said, the script to this video was excellent. I can't imagine a way to have laid out the core facets involved reader response here any more thoroughly than you did, nor with the flair for words.
You are completely, absolutely right about that. It seems quite obvious now that you say it, but I did fail to do that.
@@MistareFusion It's all good homie ilu
And that's what makes it so manipulative. There's this specific emphasis on gruesomeness with a female combatant like Videl. It's not like Goku vowed to go super hard on Recoome for torturing his five-year-old son and breaking his neck. He just socked him in the gut and knocked him out in one blow. But Gohan got INCREDIBLY angry at Videl's expense, even though her injuries were less fatal and debilitating than Gohan's were, and she had an opportunity to forfeit at any time. Gohan didn't have that choice with Recoome. He HAD to stand and fight, otherwise everybody he cared about would've been killed.
@@rhondahoward8025 A central issue with this scene, putting it all together, is not that violence is suddenly portrayed with horrifically real consequence, and not that there is violence against a female character -- it's that when there *is* violence against a female character, it is suddenly portrayed with horrifically real consequence.
@@cipher_db8992 Yeah, pretty much.
Speaking of violence in Dragon Ball, I remember my first introduction to DB was watching the DBZ episode of Gohan chopping off part of a dinosaur's tail. Initial reaction; OMG is this kid a Sadist?!
In hindsight, I guess Gohan was being approved by a demon.
Just a really good analysis here. And the commentary on Videls loss is on point
This analysis is great. For the longest time, this was the taboo dragonball moment I skipped when reading the manga or watching the show. I think this analysis is enlightening not only for DB, but for every work of fiction and what that work wants you to feel.
Pd. I love this channel.
An important bit of context unmentioned, Videl was the deuteragonist in Gohan's story.
Gohan's story was a high school superhero with plucky investigator love interest.
Their courtship has some big oofs, but was overall a charming new direction.
Suddenly, Goku's back and so is his type of story. Videl and Gohan are set up to meet in the second round when DB henchman is her first round opponent and he beats the tar out of her.
It gives you whiplash when the competing stories crash into each other and Gohan's story needs a senzu bean after Goku's runs his over.
Recoome breaking 5 year old Gohan's more brutal. His character is goofy but the plot is serious.
Videl is a serious character but the plot up until that moment was goofy and light.
Even Gohan's haircut advice is crushed, her hair is short but Stroganoff still pulls her around by it.
Might have been nice, particularly if you wanted to leave the blushing Videl panel, for her not to cut her hair and have her caught by it. Makes the whole thing more flirtatious opposed to uncharacteristically submissive and nice little subtext as long as long as neither of them really talk about it. She cuts her hair after because it can be a liability in a fight and it is re-emphasized that Gohan was not concerned with her appearance but with her safety and effectiveness.
Of course if she cut her hair after that would be minutes before she was benched for the rest of the game.
Watching and writing this, I never considered how disappointing it is that Videl doesn't to Supreme Kia's world.
She's too weak to be a fighter sure, but so is basically everybody. She's perfect for fish out of water gags as a material girl in a suddenly re-enchanted world. It's right there, it mines itself.
I think the sorta major difference between Videl's fight and those other instances of violence is that, for how one-sided the fight turns out to be as time goes on, it was more akin to torture, unlike many other times where, when things turned bad, either a beaten character gets a new wind or a stronger one shows up (although specifically the things Gohan had to endure on Namek are equally as terrible, if not more); but this time? No, it has to be, literally a god over of the gods over God is working to let this continue, and the audience (on both sides of the 4th wall) still doesn't know why, now's not the time.
All in all this was indeed mainly the developing of the climax to build up the expectations around the return to world-shattering battles and, particularly, around the new characters: Spopovich and Yamu, famously weak, are now suddenly very strong and mean, and a misterious man, supposedly a huge figure with an agenda, is both able AND willing to prevent an ANGRY Gohan from intervening in a moment when apparently it was warrented and desperately needed, yet he doesn't seem to be a baddy; mission accomplished, they got my attention, and many others' too.
Anyway, great analysis, keep at it bud (^^)b
I feel Gohan's part to be worse mostly due to the build up at the end. He gets beaten around then forces himself back up, has this moment of bravery, the music builds up, this is his moment, Gohan is gonna kick some ass....... Then Rikuum just breaks his neck and everything freezes.
@@VideoGameMasters09 I don't know, that kind of "worse" to me is more on the spectator rather than on the characters, and breaking the build-up doesn't seem to be narratively functional there, especially considering how short-lived and useless it is in the end (inconsequential because Senzu beans and Nth excuse for Goku to save the day anyway, might have been of better use as a Super Saiyan moment or something if properly prepared but as Mistare taught us Toriyama likes seeing himself more as an improviser); on Spopovich's occasion we do see a narrative purpose: the plan was seeing the hand of the hidden enemy, but in an unexpected twist the secret allies also are forced to show their cards, and at the good guys detriment. I don't know, it might be a matter of age on my part but I found the latter far more thrilling and impactful, almost as the whole "mysterious danger from the future" part of the previous arc...
Besides, it's been a while since I saw the original so I don't remember if it is different, but aren't you describing TFS' version? Nothing wrong with it, it's probably even for the better xD
It's always a special event when a new episode comes out :) Especially one as long and interesting as this!
I never click on a video so fast to see a content creator point of video such as this one.
I enjoyed vidal as character so someone talking about her is a breath of fresh air in a dbz context is cool.
Great work Gaffer ! In the end, Videl is a victim of Toriyama not knowing where he goes and playing it safe by introducing Goku back quickly. Great Saiyaman and Videl early adventure could have been a good way to introduce Badidi's majin goons -- with some overpowered criminals being introduced with the M or some victims screaming Badidi (or whatever). Unfortunately plot can't move without Goku so we came back to the status-quo we know well.
Great video! I remember seeing this fight in the anime first and it made me a bit uncomfortable to watch Videl getting the crap beat out of her. I think my feelings on this went exactly how Toriyama wanted, which is that I felt exactly how Gohan did in those scenes and hoped he would step in and help her.
I knew Lance would tackle this part with high class! Thank you so much!
Great points all around. I have nothing to add really. Seems like you attacked the issue from all angles. I appreciate the analytical take on the chapters.
You make many great points about how violence is used in Dragon Ball, and I would also argue that 5-year-old Gohan getting his neck snapped or getting crush by the foot is more brutal.
And I also don't like having my brain turned off, and I feel that often times that a lot of the fights can feel longwinded.
I guess the real reason as of why this fight feels as brutal as it is, is more so that this fight is not as silly or over the top as most DB fights tend to be, and I think another reason might have something to do with the anime since that fight is much more longer because of it's pacing, so it feels much more brutal because of that.
I think what makes the Videl fight as brutal as it is is that all this is being inflicted on her in the context of a tournament. Events like that aren't _supposed_ to be so gruesomely violent or sadistically cruel. Gohan was already fighting for keeps with Recoome. If he didn't win, all of his friends were gonna die. The stakes were already life and death.
@@rhondahoward8025 That is also true, context is very important after all.
@@gavinlucas9761 Other elements at play. The helpless of Videl as a combatant. How Spopovich can just lift her up by her hair and drive a huge, muscled knee into her face, breaking all of her teeth as she screams in pain, blood dripping down her chin.
That's what made Frieza's slaughter of the first Namekian village so despicable as well. The civilians there were non-combatants (mostly), just frail elders and young children, and mainly peaceful!
There's how realistically the weight class difference and size difference is played, making Videl truly seem tiny and childlike as she's brutalized.
Like how King Piccolo picked a tiny kid Goku up by the scruff of his shirt and just SLAMMED his fist into his face, grinding his knuckles into him, and Goku came out with a bloody nose and missing tooth.
This size difference is no longer framed comedically; it's just a grown man picking up and inflicting violence upon a small child, which evokes images of real world child abuse.
@@rhondahoward8025 And this is why in real life we have sports where Men and Women are divided into divisions to prevent that kind of violence from happening.
And there are many ways how violence is used in the series like Young Goku's fight against Piccolo Daimao to Freeza and his men killing uncompacted children and the elderly.
How is this more brutal then their fight against Frieza? He played around with them rather then killing them, possibly torturing some of them for minutes straight on and emotionally breaking them...
While I did find it brutal, I never thought that the amount of violence Videl gets subjected to was greater or lesser than that to what the other Warriors have suffered (heck, the many ways that Vegeta gets brutalized by both the Heroes and Villains in his fights always came to mind, and the dude was still willing to stand back up even if his ego was bruised alongside his bones). I always thought it was because Videl was a woman that people felt uncomfortable about it, nevermind that she used to be a crime fighter when we do get introduced to her, so it's like - at least to me - kind of odd that the time when she ends up going against a guy who does brutalize her, suddenly her getting her lumps is somehow unacceptable (heck, one of the reasons I do like Videl is that she could handle herself in a fight, even if she was at a huge disadvantage). It still doesn't take away from the brutality, but like, this fight was more or less the same kind of fight that the other heroes had experienced - if not worse.
Just what i needed on my break at work. Cant wait to see his take on the Videl fight. :P
Thank you for this video
It was a really good video and social commentary
14:49
>If Elmer Fudd, shoots Daffy Duck in the face, and Bugs Bunny is splattered with bits of his brain, it's not funny anymore.
Tell that to the writers of Family Guy.
Come to think of it, there is a gag in Family Guy where Elmer Fudd shoots a helpless Bugs to death and then breaks his neck. Granted, it is done in an exaggerated way.
@@TheAzulmagia I remember there being something like that, but it was an older episode of Family Guy. If it was a modern joke, it would be 100% gorier.
@@TheAzulmagia jesus
Family Guy seems to think gory subversion automatically equals funny, when really, all you're doing is sucking the fun out of it.
"What if Elmer Fudd just shot Bugs and broke his neck?"
Me: "Well it'd be gross, and you'd kinda be missing the point."
Or "Ha Ha, there's no way those stupid traps in Home Alone would've worked. A ten year old can't outsmart two fully grown determined burglars! They would've just shot the little turd!"
Me: "In other words, grass is green, eh Sherlock? The fun is in the pratfalls and exaggerated hijinks. We watch the bad guys slip and fall on their asses like buffoons because it's supposed to make the kid audience laugh!"
@@rhondahoward8025 exactly man. Family Guy saying this stuff just comes across as edgy and completely missing the point like you said
And Looney Tunes is still far above any Family Guy episode
I'm sure someone has said this already, but consider Krillin: He may not be a love interest, but he's a normal human who in early Dragon Ball managed to nearly-equal Goku against all odds just by training hard and not giving up. Like Videl, he started off not liking the main character, but warmed up to him later. He's an important member of the cast and fan-favorite. Then, after a heartwarming scene where he picks Goku off the ground after his defeat by Tenshinhan and reaffirms their friendship, he is casually - and brutally killed off, _offscreen._ He sits out the entirety of the Piccolo Daimaoh arc because he is dead. His death only serves to motivate Goku and doesn't further _his_ character in any way, simply interrupts it. And then it happens again in the Freeza arc, where Krillin dies a brutal, very sudden and demeaning death and yet again is written off. These deaths to a disservice to his character by throwing his status as a capable martial artist under the bus.
Videl, meanwhile, does not die (though she is written off, it only truly happens later, in the hospital. There was no reason why she couldn't come with them, since it's not like there isn't a precedent for keeping incredibly outmatched characters around solely so they can remain in the cast). And instead of humiliation to service another character, this is instead her shining moment: We knew Videl was determined, but we didn't know _how_ determined. We knew she was good fighter but we never really got to see _how_ good. This is NOT "The Night Gwen Stacy Died". This is Supergirl versus the Anti-Monitor in Crisis on Infinite Earths, which is held up to this day as the greatest example of how to AVOID the Women in Refrigerators trope.
Except even then, Videl does it one better because she didn't have to die for her moment of glory.
Good post, it'll be ignored by the idiot sjws who think "fridging womenz" is a thing.
Except this really character moment because unlike krillin she stops getting any significant screen time or focus.
@@fightingmedialounge519 It's basically the pinnacle of her character arc, since unfortunately she never comes back following this. I guess that makes me appreciate it all the more, given it was the last time we got to see Videl kicking ass and being herself.
(Full disclosure, I couldn't really tell what you were trying to say? I think you forgot some words there.)
@@andremarques4863 I was trying to say that comparing this to krillin is an insult since he actually gets to be relevant after his major losses. Really fusion was right on the money when he said that this is toriyama throwing another character away once he was done with them.
@@fightingmedialounge519 Again, since Videl got a Senzu Bean, there was no reason she couldn't have joined them for the rest of the arc. To say that Videl doesn't get treated worse than Krillin would be ridiculous because she is. And it's not hard to accuse Toriyama of sexism because every strong female character he makes, he forgets about. However, I was not comparing Krillin and Videl's character arcs, I was comparing the moments where they were (or in Videl's case, almost were) fridged.
As Videl did not die from this, I don't see this moment as the cause for her benching. Like I said in my original post, the moment where she does get thrown to the sidelines in when she's in the hospital and Gohan tells her she shouldn't come because it's "too dangerous" and it's like, why? Was it too dangerous for Krillin to come to Namek? Was it too dangerous for _Bulma?_
We just spent a whole chapter dedicated to Videl's fighting prowess and being able to go toe to toe with a magically-enhanced human. It doesn't make sense and there is a clear double standard compared to other human characters in the past. But just like Vegeta's sacrifice is a good character moment invalidated by what comes afterward, the same applies to this moment as well. And the fact that Vegeta returns to the plot again and Videl does not is not related to these scenes, it's a problem in the broader plot, in the way they were used in the saga as a whole.
The way Videl was used in this scene in particular is a testament to her character as well as to how well Toriyama succeeded in endearing us to her to the point of giving us such a visceral reaction. It seems strange to say "I hate this scene because it removed Videl from the plot" when that only came later.
Hell, Krillin's first death led _directly_ to him being removed from the Daimaoh arc. It's ridiculous. Of course I hate Videl not getting any screentime after this, but I'll not blame her shining moment as a character for it, any more than I'll blame Vegeta's sacrifice for being pointless to the story.
I'll just blame the author, who wrote a scene showcasing Videl's best qualities only to never use her again. I'll blame the fact that she was never allowed to live up to the potential she showed us in this scene.
Every time I watch one of your videos I don't even know whether to agree or disagree with your points right away, I'm just like, "holy f*** that was good, I need to process this"
You're awesome, thanks for what you do
I'm so glad you enjoyed it! Thank you for telling me.
You put this better than I ever could
I agree with your assessment. I think what bothers people about how spopavich beats on videl is how realistic it is. If It was more violent in a way lake her getting blasted, ironically I think people would be less uncomfortable because of how unrealistic it is. Which allows people to not register it as being as brutal. But the way she gets beat far more resembles real world abuse than the over the top martial arts battle most people are used to. It can also be the HUGE tone shift. If the fights were gradually increasing in brutality, like the fights leading up to Gohan getting his neck broken, people would be more primed. However the previous fights to this one where goofy and comedic. The overall tone of the arc was a good ol family reunion with a mystery guest. N so for people Videls bloody beat down comes off like gun shots going off at a block party (it catches the audience off guard). However I always got the sense this was intentional, but ye it's why I think Videls fight is so uncomfortable. Also Gohan getting his neck broken was equally as uncomfortable to me, so yeah I do agree it's weird for people to be unfazed completely by a kid Gohan getting beaten just cuz he's a boy.
one point that i think you forgot was the agressiveness of the combatant, in that aspect i think spopovich compares more to freeza. In the Reccome fight Reccome fought his opponents in a more reactionary way, Reccome stopped to fight once his opponents were out of combat, he seems to enjoy the fight more than enjoying the pain he inflicted in his oponents. When freeza faced vegeta in his final form he, like spopovich, didnt fight to stop his oponent but to get enjoyment from inflicting pain on him. From the moment Spopovich flew up to Videl and blasted her back into the ring he show that he is inf full control of the fight. When Videl fell near the boundry an dthe judge asked her to give up, spopovich could have easly pushed her out of the bounds, but he let her get up and try to fight him again.
Yeah, he was a sadistic bastard. He just kept dragging that fight out and inflicting as many torturous, crippling wounds as he could.
Good point. Recuum might have been remorselessly brutal, but once it became clear his opponents could no longer fight back he seemed to get bored and disappointed that the fun was over.
@Porfirio Rubirosa 1) It just makes worse that a mercenary under Freeza is less agressive than a guy in a tornaument.
2) Videl was trained by her father, the strongest man in the world, she helps the police to fight ARMED CRIMINALS. I say she has a way better expectative and chance to win against Muhammad Ali than you have.
3) Its a TORNAUMENT, with RULES, most fighters dont break each others bones on prupose because they are decent people.
4) Muhammad would defeat you for sure, but i doubt he would start squeezing your head with his foot trying to break it.
@Porfirio Rubirosa 1)I never daid it didnt matter, what i said was that Recoome didnt torture his adversary like Freeza did to Vegeta or Spopovich did to Videl.
2) Goku fought alot of people he was astronomically stronger than in past tornauments but he never stepped out of his way to hurt his oponent to make him suffer. I find a goosd message that drugs make people go irrational end get brutal but a person being taken over by magic dont make their actions less brutal.
3)Yes, beyond no killing, there's no rules in the tornaument against what Spopovich was doing, but there is common decency that normal people have. Im saiyng that spopovich had the fight completely under control so when videl stopped to react it was safe for him to knock her out.
4) I agree, what Videl did was brutal, but im saying that the attitude of the fighter torwards the brute act make it look more brutal. If a kid in a swing accidentally knocked out another kid that was passing by and the knocked kid started to bleed, would you say that the kid in the swing as a brute? Videl wasnt trying to kill Spopovich, she was trying to knock him out, Spopovich wasnt trying to knock Videl out, unless he expected that squeezing her head between his foot and the floor would somehow propel her out of the arena.
@Porfirio Rubirosa recoome didnt kill Gohan, if that was the case the semzu beam would be useless, and if spopovich is only evil because he is mind controled then why why the guy who stopped him was the other mind controled guy? And remember that babidi can only control evil people, thats why he takes over Vegeta, and not Goku.
I’m sorry, but your daffy bugs comparison had the exact opposite result you meant for it to have. Bugs covered in daffy guts is HILARIOUS!!! At least the initial thought, and how you presented it. You point is not lost, just your example was funny. “Guns don’t kill people, sudden tonal shifts kill people.” I want to get that on a bumper sticker.