*"When discussing retcons in fiction, I tend to find friction with two different factions."* Yeah, I'm just quoting it because it really was a cool sentence. There's no other point to this comment, have a good day!
I think that the Bobbidi thing is most frustrating to talk about because it adds absolutely nothing. It's a trivia fact that you hear, go "Huh. How 'bout that," and never think about again. At least the concept of Boo existing before Bibbidi is something you can make a story out of, but the clone thing is completely irrelevant. No part of the material can be looked at differently based on it.
From my understanding, modern Dragonball really likes to repeat old stories. They keep bringing Frieza back, they brought back future Trunks and no new characters fought for our Universe for the tournament of power. When FighterZ promised a completely original story created by Toriyama it involved Android 21 who, while being a new character, is pretty much nothing more than an extention-repeat from the Cell Arc. I would not be surprised if the concept of Bobbidi being a clone rather than a son of Bibbidi will be used to be able to repeat elements from the Majijn Buu arc. When Bibbidi dies Bobbidi gained his essence and got elevated to more than just a clone, to a son-like figure. How we do know that there isn't a Bebbidi or a Bubbadi out there somewhere? Another surviving clone that was next in line to inherit Bibbidi's essence and who has searched the galaxy to find and control Majin Buu. I'm not saying it would be a good story, but the clone thing certainly can be turned into the story. In fact, for any story that revolves around a Bobbidi like figure to come back to earth I think that them being clones makes it more plausible than if had been a standard father/son relationship. That is to say, if Bobbidi was just a son, not a clone then a here for unknown Bebbidi coming up would be a lot more silly. Would it be Bibbidi's other son, or maybe even his grandson (do we get an infinite number of "you killed my father, prepared to die scene" until we go through the whole lineage? Bibbidi going from clone to clone would function like a sort of Horcrux scenario, or like a Lich with a phylactery. It can come back because you were not aware of how his soul is bound to this earth. I would say that the problem isn't so much that the retcon cannot be turned into a story, but that it happened without a story being attached to it. Almost any kind of retcon can be turned into an essential piece for a future story, but is pointless as a standalone titbit.
@@DhrAaldert They did the same with GT back then, the movies were basically just that too. I think it was just the way how Toei worked "new" SAFE material into the series. They are doing the same thing now and Toriyama seems to not care that much either because he hardly created something major which is actually new either (Beerus may be the only real new addition). I think DB entered its "zombie state" decades ago when the original manga ended and the DBS anime didn't do much to help it going away from it. I fear that we will never see a true revival of this story.
@@DhrAaldert This is essentially what I thought happened with the S-Cells interview from like a few years ago. I thought to myself "this is way thought out to not be related so some project Toriyama is currently working on." Turns out it wasn't, and now people are angry about some interview that they could easily just pretend didn't happen.
Gotta love the episodes where you go off on a tangent. It just means it will take longer to get through the series and thus more Dragon Ball Dissection to quench my thirst.
@Nareto64 That's a good point... These tangents serve to pad out topics for episodes. Meaning more DBD episodes for me to play in the background while working on my comics. :p
Ah Dethbattle, they make butchering anime and comic source material an art form. The goku vs superman vid's backlash is was the first time I saw they were making mistakes.
@@powercore2000 to be fair the biggest mistake in that video was the ambiguity they created in their own rules by having goku encounter supermans weakness and then let him live. That one scene made an otherwise standard fight seem like they were compromising Goku to allow superman to win. When in reality they were just such big goku fanboys they broke their own rule about having both fighters not pull any punches even if it would be in character for them to.
@@Fanatic_Foremem I could be mistaken, but didn't they use a severe miscalculation on Goku's speed by repeating an exponential twice, making goku far slower than he actually was? That and mixing feats from contradictory Superman cannons, but I can't remember if that was the rematch or original fight. I watched a video from SethTheProgrammer about it ages ago, and I don't think they ever made a retraction it.
@@powercore2000 Their research is consistant in itself, and it would have been the rematch that they mixed continuities since they mentioned but never used a new 52 move. Mixing Comics and DCAU if anything would make superman weaker and there wasn't any major continuity shifts for the version of superman they were using so even most of the elseworlds stories would be reliable sources for feats. All Star Superman may not be in the same continuity but the quote they used for reference is contextualized by the main continuity, it was only an elseworlds because superman dies at the end and they can't do that AGAIN. Regaurdless of how you do the math, Superman comes out on top, mainly because his power scalling is the antithesis of how death battle works. Death Battle tries to find exact numbers while superman has the biggest number at default because his stories are about using that power to help the world without breaking it. People are free to dislike the deathbattle but I have yet to see a single youtuber actually acknowledge that the problem with it stemmed from the match up and not who won. Because the idea that Goku and Superman are comparible in power is laughable, their story paths are complete oposites. Goku is always finding people stronger than him and Superman is shocked to find anyone who can even hurt him, much less fight on par with him.
@@Fanatic_Foremem SeththeProgrammer literally challenged their information and not the outcome. The problem didn't come from the matchup it came from their misinformation to create their outcome, which they didn't even need to do.
I really appreciate how you took the time to analyze retcon and the way the fandom is capable of editing the series. Very important stuff I’ve been preaching for years but nobody listens. This video should be seen by every Dragon Ball fan. Well done Lance, well done! Thank you so much!!!
I think Toriyama just doesn't remember Dragon Ball that well, and doesn't really care about changing details to whatever sounds cooler in his head nowadays. S-Cells and Lunch's fate come to mind. Still, it's good to finally get a breakdown of where that clone idea came from. I probably got it from Death Battle too, back when I liked it...
@@SlapstickGenius23 I have experience in writing by the seat of my pants. During this process you write something on the fly without giving it much thought... That's probably why Toriyama's so forgetful regarding his work. Hell while proofreading stories from several years ago, I'll come across a line of dialogue or narration that I won't remember writing and will have the following reaction:"Wait, I wrote that?"
That’s a lame recon. Bibidi wasn’t exactly a sympathetic character to begin with. It seems unnecessary to remove the one trait that humanizes him only a tiny bit, and in the worst way. Especially since a bit part of this arc is learning how incompetent Shin is.
I feel like the Water could still be poison WITHOUT Goku being a Saiyan, remember even before the alien retcon, Goku was still "special" in some nondescript way, so even without the Saiyan Zenkai, his training ethic and inherent "goodness" or whatever could still be an argument in favor of the "poison water" idea.
WHY would it be poison, then? If Yajirobe was somehow really right, then Karin, a god with knowledge passed down from the heavens, just gave Goku poison on an uneducated gamble, and Goku basically lucked out that he had the biology to both overcome it and gain a power-up from it.
@@najadamu2724 I think about it in much the same way as the Stand Arrow from JoJo, or a more exaggerated version of caffeine in real life. It's a poison, sure, and whatever it's derived from developed it as a defensive measure, to kill things that would fuck with it. But, in controlled doses, people can potentially survive its effects, and benefit greatly from doing so.
I'm surprised there aren't more RPG Dragon Ball games like Attack of the Saiyans. Dabura's stone spit could be a Petrification ability, for example, not to mention a the way a number of other special skills could work in that format. Guldo and Hit's time abilities, Buu's Candy Beam, etc. I guess the downside is that so much of Dragon Ball is 1v1 fights that it kind of goes against the RPG grain of having a lot of party members? Still, I wouldn't mind seeing more of that kind of style of game.
YESS Attack of the sayians was so much fun!! I have always wanted to see a sequel to it going through Friza, Cell, Buu maybe even GT if they are feeling brave.
Yeah, I believe that the reason is that DragonBall has a largely linear "people beat each other up with fists and blasts" style of combat, while things like Magic tend to be the exception, and generally go against the rest of the power system, due to Magic generally ignoring the physical resistances of the enemy there. In RPGs, combat is usually based on the very difference of skills between each other: elemental affinities, status effects, buffs, debuffs, this, that, etcetera, etcetera... It's not like it's imèpossible as you said though since Dragon ball heroes follow a similar style of battle to JRPGs, and Xenoverse allows a decent variety of customization in terms of abilities, combined with the much more traditional fighting game genre where Dragon ball is much more successful.
In one of the best Dragon Ball games ever created: Dragon Ball Z: Legendary Super Warriors for Gameboy, Dabura's spit is a card with 20% accuracy that straight up ends the match. I got unlucky one time and got one-shotted by Fat Buu. That game is super sick and every character is viable with characters like Kid Buu, Pefect Cell, Gotenks, and Vegito being OP as hell.
And how Frieza's species does as well. (Since toriyama stated that king cold gave birth to frieza). There is also the interesting fact that in Dragonball heroes, toriyama confirmed that frieza's species can grow hair, but its a rare genetic thing and even drew it in the concept art; however this was in heroes which (unless the manga or anime confirms this) is likely only canon in the game continuity (In my opinion). The continuity where dragonball heroes, dragonball online, tenkaichi, budokai, Xenoverse, Dokkan, Legends, etc... are. Which is why some games do crossovers with each other; I like to think of that as it's own thing (Until toriyama confirms it later himself).
@@TheAzulmagia Although, unlike Daimao, Babidi apparently didn't get all the memories of Bibidi. He mentions that he never saw Majin Boo before and, so, couldn't tell 100% that this pink fat guy was him until Kaioshin confirmed it. And he says he knows the password to reseal Boo because he read his "father's notes".
@Faze Gohan To be honest if we just say that Babidi is Bibidi's "Son" in a generic term it works both ways, like explained in the video and you can chose which one you want him to be yourself. Personally I just see Babidi as Bibidi's son in the most common term as child. Even the word play "Bibidi > Babidi > Buu" eludes to this.
This whole episode FASCINATES me greatly. Like many people, I was heavily under the impression that the whole "Babidi was always meant to be a clone" thing was fact. Though I should note I thought this before Death Battle, I read the interview and admittedly completely misread the context since I was fairly fresh to the idea of trying to learn almost everything I can about one of my favorite series. But seeing the explanation and getting outright direct confirmation based on the original unaltered Japanese manga that this was nothing more than a retcon? Now I just feel incredibly silly... but also very informed. Honestly as someone who only just got into this series recently while trying to pass time in quarantine? I think this is my favorite aspect about watching it. While I often disagree with many of the opinions expressed on here outright, I just love all the interesting little new tidbits and info I learn from this. It gives me such a better understanding of the franchise and honestly? It makes me even more interested in reading the manga when before I only read the half that was covered by Dragon Ball Z.
Man shoutouts to when they cut off the Omnitrix despite showing it has a feedback wave IN THE SAME EPISODE, also showing the Big Bang clip and not the Omnitrix failsafe clip despite it ALSO being in that episode. Death Battle's extremely misleading and its frustrating
Don't forget when they calculated that goku would be the same speed in base then when goku was in ss2. Or when they downplayed sonic to an unimaginable degree.
@@ShinobiPXO ? I'm talking about the clip where they list his speeds in each form. On that vid ss2 and base form had near the same speed despite super saiyan being faster. Now it's been awhile since I saw the video but I remember that scene.
I sometimes think retcons like the ones discussed here are actually a creator's original ideas that were reigned in by an editor. I am pretty sure these days Toriyama-sensei receives apology letters from editors on the regular. "We're sorry it took Dragon Ball Evolution for us to realize that your true genius is best left unchecked. Please accept this arrangement of fruits in the shape of a colorful poo as an apology that satisfies your insanely perfect sense of humor."
Death Battle also made me think it was a mistranslation. I'm glad you didn’t hate on them. The English dub of DBZ Kai the final chapters from 2017 still says Babidi is Bibidi’s child. It’s funny how there are retcons that people don’t even realize are retcons. I use to think that Goku was always meant to be an alien and Toriyama was just waiting to reveal it.
Enough of this in-depth analysis and context. Who would win in a fight between Majin Buu and Kirby, cuz they’re both pink? We need to start categorizing feats of power!
I can't wait for the episode on Majin Vegeta where we have to get again discuss vegeta's true alignment and whether or not the Majin power awakens actual evil or works for guilt because if Vegeta himself is saying his actions are unforgivable then it's because he's good and knows he did something bad otherwise he wouldn't regret them.
@@HistoryandReviews I mean in the story of Dragonball did the Demon King Piccolo see him self as Evil. But Boo on the other hand does not so I don't know.
2:44 Majin Bulma... THAT would've been awesome! The way you described and question being a Majin reminds me of being Vampire in the Buffyverse. Their personalities are still the same, but and their bad impulses are brought to the surface.
Dabura’s battle plan / kill order has always made perfect sense to me. Bobbidi’s conditions are: 1) take Kaioshin alive, 2) lure in the three powerful guys, and 3) the rest are expendable. Ergo, kill Kibito first (since his energy is useless anyway) and take the two weaker fighters hostage by spitting on them. And it more or less plays out precisely as they planned.
15:55 That would suggest that whoever started the legend of the Ultra Divine Water somehow foresaw that a pure-hearted saiyan would come to live on earth and eventually come to seek out that poison. It's more of a prophecy (and a borderline self-fulfilling one at that, since it was hearing about this prophecy that caused Goku to fulfill it) than a traditional description of how the drink is supposed to work.
I feel like I’m running down the Serpentine Road with how many DBD episodes I’m binging to get to the current point in the series in time for the end of GT. LOL
Most stuff toriyama retcons about db in the last 25 years since he finished writing stuff a( needlessly complicate something e.g. the dreaded s cells thing, b) add extra context to the story that just make me think by all means this should have been always part of the text if he had planned things out just a little bit more e.g. #16 being based off gero's son So the babbadi thing needless to say has thrown me for a loop too
@@caelinnis they are self contradictory though, I suppose if you want to take it as an explanation in universe for goten and trunks seeing as there really isn't any other reason then sure I guess, just as long as you remember the only real reason at the time it was written was the irl reason that toriyama simply thought it was a funny idea and just went with it
Oh my, I've caught up with Dragonball Dissection! I started binge-watching this hidden gem around two weeks around ago, on the 6th of November if one of my liked videos which came out the same time I watched the introduction of DBD is any indication. It's been a fantastic ride. You've championed Dragonball's strengths and pitfalls wonderfully. 💖 These reviews really do show Toriyama's strengths and limitations. He's a wonderful illustrator capable of producing some masterful works of arts and has a great imagination but on the other hand, his storytelling does tend to let him down. In particular, he's always minimising Dragonball's world for the sake of fetishing the idea of someone being "the strongest ever." While that works well easily establishing tension, it has the negative effect of making Dragonball's world small. Roshi never needed to be the strongest on earth. In fact, given the Muten Roshi's instance that'd always be someone stronger out there to challenge his boys in the 1st tournament arc it would've been better if he wasn't. If he was just the strongest of a specific region in the Dragonball world, Toriyama could've left the world open to be expanded upon with further powerful and unique individuals for our beloved heroes to challenge. Likewise Freeza NEVER had to be the strongest in the universe. It's space. The possibilities for world-building and storytelling could've been infinite had Toriyama not instantly reduced it to the size of a couple of city blocks narratively to lazily and uncreatively raise the stakes. Never needed to happen. Instead, it would've been fun if Freeza was apart of a ultra-uber powerful organization. That way, he would just be a small piece in a much larger narrative leading onto the next arc. Making him apart of an organzation instead of making him the Universe's strongest would not only leave space open as it should be, it would give the other characters fights of their own against the organization's finest so it doesn't all just come down to Goku to save everyone. That would've been far more intriguing. Toriyama's handing of the other characters, particularly Chiaotzu, Tien, and Yamcha, was awful. Chiaotzu does next to nothing, Tien becomes a dull good guy and Yamcha gets reduced to a walking joke with how often he's disposed of by the boss of the arc to hype him up. Not to mention he had his character assassinated so Bulma could get with Vegeta without looking totally heartless. It never needed to happen. Toriyama could've just took out Lunch from the storage he shoved her into and used her for Vegeta's son but handing a big cast really isn't his strong suit and it shows with how quickly characters like the aforementioned four are relegated to the background. I appreciate Super giving relevancy to previously relegated side characters like Krillin and Roshi, but it still frequently poops all over Tien's character. Like Krillin being the strongest human. He really shouldn't be given Tien does nothing else but train day in, day out but he still is because Toriyama and Toei don't give a single crap about Tien, and also Krillin is Goku's best friend, so in Akira's head, he must be the strongest human. He has to be, he's Goku's best friend. It's sad to see how Dragonball wasted its potential. It could've been an amazing series and in some ways I guess it is since it has stood the test of time (but I'd argue that's more due to nostalgia than anything else) I wish Toriyama had worked with a co-author, someone who could've served as the writer, because as an illustrator he's second to none but his weak character-writing and world-building (e.g Namek) really lets him down Anyway, looking forward to more DBD goodness 😊🥰
I've honestly never bought that Babidi was Bibidi's magic clone, mainly because they barely look similar aside from having flesh-whiskers and wearing orange capes.
DBD December sounds really fun this time around. December's usually one of my least favourite months of the year, but this is one thing to look forward to.
Cannot TELL ya how calming it is to come to these Dissection videos. Your words and sentences really compliment our intelligence. Out of all my favorite reviewers, you're the most chill in my opinion. Everyone else (even me) can be a bit over the top but it's refreshing to just sit here, sometimes during my lunch break, and just listen. :)
I never heard that about Babidi before. These kind of retcons or additions usually annoy me but this time, I can't help but feel it's quite intriguing. However I'm pretty sure it's just a potential set up for more Bibbidi/Babidi clones to be used in the future, if need be.
I don't know how I'd feel about a clone of him returning. Babidi wasn't a threat to the Dragon Team in his first outing. And if he had something stronger than Buu, surely he would've used it instead of Buu. Not to mention that Dragon Ball Super already has a problem of making call backs to older arcs that fans have nostalgia for rather than trying to just make new arcs that sink or swim on their own merit.
You're getting pretty close to one of the biggest questions I have, a few chapters away. I will say, I've only watched the anime (sorry), so it might just be an anime exclusive thing.. but... At around the time Buu has his weird house, and Mr Satan goes to try and befriend him, Buu states he will wait 3 days before destroying stuff. He then goes to sleep, and wakes up like 5 minutes later, stating 'one day has passed'. It seems like the story was setting up a plot line about Buu not knowing how long a day is, and giving the heroes far less time than they think. ..but it's never mentioned again, and nothing comes of it.. .. and NO-ONE ever even acknowledges this set up being discarded. Given your series is easily the most indepth analysis of DB, I certainly hope you will address it in some form. :p
One of the retcons I like the least is coming: Piccolo's regeneration. PS: people like to repeat things without even thinking, least analizing or searching the sources.
Yeah, so much of the discussions in modern DB fandom is playing the telephone game, and some people still going off of the original FUNi dub of the series while others somehow jumped in with Super.
oh MAN this is a good DBDD lineup! The ass blasting of Vegeta is something ive been looking forward to since your discussion of his Cell arc stupidity, hearing you trash Broly 2 (i assume) will be amazing, AND a Dragonball Fashion Exxxxtravaganza?
And this is where the Anime tops the Manga in terms of Spopovich. In the Anime we get a clear cut backstory on Spopovich's rivalry against Mr.Satan because in the tournament prior Mr. Satan beats the crap outta Spopovich, which in term makes Spopovich have a grudge against him....so what better way to get revenge than to beat the Champs daughter and eventually lead up to his grudge match against Mr. Satan himself. we get more background on these characters and their connection.
There's also something else that can happen if you are a longtime fan: you can forget exactly when certain information came about. You may forget that there ever even was a retcon. Or you can think that a flashback was in the original. Unless you regularly go back and view the originals, it's just easy to not remember. This is especially true if you came to the fandom "out of order," and weren't careful about avoiding spoilers when you went back. If you read up on your favorite stuff, and stuff from future info was kept in, you may think it's original.
As a fan of star wars, I would like to weigh in about the bad taste in retcons... I do believe it is because of George Lucas. He certainly didn't create retcons. But during the prequels he started saying stuff like "it was always my plan from the start". Such as, Vader being Luke's Father. Luke and Leia being brother and sister. When there is evidence to the contrary-- Even in the movies.
I think you have the answer to whether you should continue discussing super and what it means for the story retroactively, from its inclusion of new universes, to its fiddling with godly hierarchy
18th December, a day that will live in infamy, when MIstareFusion will mostly likely have a huge rant about Vegeta(continuation from Cell Arc part 12). can't wait.
welcome back to the show that covers chronological events at a snail's pace. seems fitting considering the events this show is covering are widely memed to go at a snail's pace.
11:50 Hahah I've watched that Deathbattle at least 5 times and that never stuck with me lol Yeah bro, love your videos but this is making a mountain out of a handful of sand 😂😂😂 like he's still Bibidi's clone/offspring right; this segment is about why people think it's a mistranslation...for realsies??? Haha guess this is why I watch! So informational, almost to a fault! Lol
10:13 Bibbidi face is what I think Mr fusion's face is when he comes to realize we thought that this was a translation error? I could have sworn I heard that too sometime in the early two thousands. Though I don't remember if it was before or after my high school career. Edit: 11:10 it's all Boomstick's fault! Lol 🤣
For the part about the Choshinsui, you don't even need the retcon of Goku's Saiyan biology to explain it as being a bit more than just an instant power up. Karin states that surviving it requires great levels of strength, mind and vitality, which ties heavily into concepts to do with honing one's Ki (which, even without Toriyama backing it up through later material with his explanations on Genki, Shouki and Yuuki, already had enough fame in eastern culture for the requirements to not be difficult to grasp for the intended audience). In other words, Goku was able to endure it where others failed because of having honed and balanced his physical, mental and living strength rather than main character plot armour or Saiyan retcons. A more fitting example of Saiyan biology retcons to explain a writing decision would be (funnily enough also from the Piccolo Daimao Arc), Goku's heart stopping after Daimao attacked him only for it to start up again after he left.
I love Christmas, so I like december already. But DBD really has made it even better these last years. Also nice connection you made there with the Krilin spit thing lol.
You might be disappointed. Lance has started on Twitter that he doesn't get the hate for movie 10 and that it's the most entertaining of the original Broli films.
Babidi is a reincarnation of Bibidi, similar to how Piccolo Jr. is the reincarnated son of King Piccolo. Piccolo also had King Piccolo’s memories which made him hate Goku for example. Likewise, Babidi possesses many of Bibidi’s memories which includes his hatred for Shin, the Supreme Kai.
Very tangential, but since comments help appease our algorithmic overlords: The best retcon in the history of retcons was Tolkien explaining his retcon of the Hobbit's content with *Bilbo* (the in-universe author of the Hobbit) initially being dishonest about how exactly he got the ring from Sméagol, which then gives Gandalf a clue about the nature of the ring. In this case... ehhh? If Toriyama was giving information about how he envisioned the villains' backstories at the time, but couldn't / didn't want to explore it in the story - cool. I'd like that. If it was in preparation of an appearance of Bobbidi and Toriyama had this cool new idea about him - also cool, I prefer a (fairly inconsequential) to Toriyama tossing away that idea. If it's just a random new idea that will never be used again - whatever, it doesn't impact how I read the original story in any way, so I don't really care either way.
I fall into the camp of " retcons can be good or bad". It really depends on the context, audience awareness, and reasons for the retcon. The most important factor is audience awareness. If the audience isn't hyper aware of the parts that are being retcon, the majority of them won't even notice.
I kind of like the idea of the Super Holy Water providing Goku with a zenkai boost BUT think it requires a specific way of looking at it. It is possible that BOTH the water has magical properties that cause someone's strengh to greatly increase assuming they can survive it, AND that surviving drinking it caused Goku to gain a zenkai boost. Thereby meaning he got two power ups in one.
This is very similar to the "Android #16 was modeled after Dr. Gero's son" retcon. It presents new context on the story's events, however, it not presented in the text itself, and even if you apply the new context, it makes no difference to the story. Retcons can be used effectively such as Goku and Piccolo being revealed to be aliens, however, one should take note that earlier parts of the series weren't made with that in mind, so it doesn't work in those examples. But one thing I'm not a fan of this revisionist history that has been crawling out of the woodwork in this modern era of Dragon Ball because it needlessly changes things that were fine as they were in the original text of the manga, and many things actively make the story worse such as Dragon Ball Minus.
Not everything an Author say could be considerated Canon if what the Author is saying is contradictory to the work. That's called "Death of the Author" trope, aka, "Word of God" can only get you so far as filling the gaps your work have, not changing what the work already stabilish. Hell, just look to what J.K Rowling does, and nobody agrees with her. So long story short, we can perfectly ignore what Toriyama said about Bibidi not being Babidi's father and just focus on what the canon material say: that he is.
To be fair, when you have levels of destruction that can destroy a planet. It's not surprising that the characters of DB want to focus on using energy blasts. (That's an in-universe reason)
I'm most looking forward to your final analysis on the Boo arc. It's so hard to pin down for me... I usually run with the idea that it's primary theme is itself, Dragon Ball, and is almost a deconstruction of the series until that point.
What is the most chapters you’ve ever covered in a dragon ball dissection video? (Apologies that this isn’t relevant to this specific video, but thought of this question and just went to the most recent video)
I always felt the Majin thing gave slight power ups to Darbura and the rest but since they were already powerful warriors it wouldn't affect them as badly. I'm thinking the reason Yamu and Spopovich were so jacked and looked about to explode is because Babidi grabbed two normal non ki user humans. I forgot if the manga showed it but I remember Spopo pretty much learned how to shoot energy blasts on the fly in his match with Videl. Regular humans can barely handle Babidi's magic. The only odd thing is Yamu still seems more composed compared to Spopo who seems like he's barely able to contain his rage.
"When discussing retcons in fiction I tend to find friction with two different factions." And so, to avoid consternation in ensuing conversation I must take care with my diction to minimize vexation.
- "Vegeta, to whom betrayal is not just a life style, but the zest that makes the morning worth it" - "Something happens to Vegeta". Oh, boy, I can smell blood already. * I mean...I think that's what he says? I can't fully get the word here. O_o** ** Corrected. :P I originally wrote "jazz".
@@MistareFusion OK, corrected. Thanks! 😊 (On a completely different note... Oh my god, senpai noticed me! I wish it had been in a comment of more substance, but I'll take what I can get. 😅)
I guess I have a mandela effect with this because I remember being surprised when I first saw Bibbidi on the cover of the American DVD singles being confused he didnt look exactly like Bobbidi because I thought he was a clone and thought he would be identical. I would have first seen that in 2009 when i discovered Daizenshuu EX (from your Dragon Box review) and saw their DVD guide but if it was first talked about in 2014, it must be some kind of misremembering. Maybe i did first hear in that Death Battle and then when i saw ever i saw Bibbidi again i was confused why he wasnt identical looking.
"I'm altering the story, pray I don't alter it any further." -Darth Toriyama
“This deal keeps getting worse all the time” Dragonball fans under their breath.
Lmfao this was amazing
@@CbsOmegaOmniX Furthermore Future Trunks hair is now blue and it always was, I have altered the story, pray I don't alter it any further.
Plus the porta fusion is now only permanent for gods so Goku and Vegeta can now use the porta fusion without consequences.
Brolytransitioning:KAKARO-NYAAAAAAAGHHHGHRAAAAAAA
My feeling on retcons can be summed up with this old quote:
"Sure, it had always been that way. But had it always been that way yesterday?"
Perfect.
My pea brain died processing this :)
This won't be the last retcon for this arc remember when the porta fusion was permanent for not just Gods but also mortals neither do I.
Where's the quote from? You can't just post a quote without a source...
@@thebigdawgj I think it's from the Discworld book Soul Music.
*"When discussing retcons in fiction, I tend to find friction with two different factions."*
Yeah, I'm just quoting it because it really was a cool sentence. There's no other point to this comment, have a good day!
I think that the Bobbidi thing is most frustrating to talk about because it adds absolutely nothing. It's a trivia fact that you hear, go "Huh. How 'bout that," and never think about again.
At least the concept of Boo existing before Bibbidi is something you can make a story out of, but the clone thing is completely irrelevant. No part of the material can be looked at differently based on it.
I mean, it tells us that alien species reproduce via cloning I suppose, which fleshes out the world building, but yea.
From my understanding, modern Dragonball really likes to repeat old stories. They keep bringing Frieza back, they brought back future Trunks and no new characters fought for our Universe for the tournament of power. When FighterZ promised a completely original story created by Toriyama it involved Android 21 who, while being a new character, is pretty much nothing more than an extention-repeat from the Cell Arc.
I would not be surprised if the concept of Bobbidi being a clone rather than a son of Bibbidi will be used to be able to repeat elements from the Majijn Buu arc. When Bibbidi dies Bobbidi gained his essence and got elevated to more than just a clone, to a son-like figure. How we do know that there isn't a Bebbidi or a Bubbadi out there somewhere? Another surviving clone that was next in line to inherit Bibbidi's essence and who has searched the galaxy to find and control Majin Buu.
I'm not saying it would be a good story, but the clone thing certainly can be turned into the story. In fact, for any story that revolves around a Bobbidi like figure to come back to earth I think that them being clones makes it more plausible than if had been a standard father/son relationship. That is to say, if Bobbidi was just a son, not a clone then a here for unknown Bebbidi coming up would be a lot more silly. Would it be Bibbidi's other son, or maybe even his grandson (do we get an infinite number of "you killed my father, prepared to die scene" until we go through the whole lineage? Bibbidi going from clone to clone would function like a sort of Horcrux scenario, or like a Lich with a phylactery. It can come back because you were not aware of how his soul is bound to this earth.
I would say that the problem isn't so much that the retcon cannot be turned into a story, but that it happened without a story being attached to it. Almost any kind of retcon can be turned into an essential piece for a future story, but is pointless as a standalone titbit.
@@DhrAaldert They did the same with GT back then, the movies were basically just that too. I think it was just the way how Toei worked "new" SAFE material into the series. They are doing the same thing now and Toriyama seems to not care that much either because he hardly created something major which is actually new either (Beerus may be the only real new addition).
I think DB entered its "zombie state" decades ago when the original manga ended and the DBS anime didn't do much to help it going away from it. I fear that we will never see a true revival of this story.
It's pretty much pointless that there some fans who still feel the need to bring this up.
@@DhrAaldert This is essentially what I thought happened with the S-Cells interview from like a few years ago. I thought to myself "this is way thought out to not be related so some project Toriyama is currently working on." Turns out it wasn't, and now people are angry about some interview that they could easily just pretend didn't happen.
Gotta love the episodes where you go off on a tangent. It just means it will take longer to get through the series and thus more Dragon Ball Dissection to quench my thirst.
@Nareto64
That's a good point... These tangents serve to pad out topics for episodes. Meaning more DBD episodes for me to play in the background while working on my comics. :p
basically a dragonball trope talks
Wait what?? Death Battle was misleading? Impossible.
But seriously
Thank you for this awesome series Mistare Fusion. You rock
Ah Dethbattle, they make butchering anime and comic source material an art form.
The goku vs superman vid's backlash is was the first time I saw they were making mistakes.
@@powercore2000 to be fair the biggest mistake in that video was the ambiguity they created in their own rules by having goku encounter supermans weakness and then let him live. That one scene made an otherwise standard fight seem like they were compromising Goku to allow superman to win. When in reality they were just such big goku fanboys they broke their own rule about having both fighters not pull any punches even if it would be in character for them to.
@@Fanatic_Foremem I could be mistaken, but didn't they use a severe miscalculation on Goku's speed by repeating an exponential twice, making goku far slower than he actually was? That and mixing feats from contradictory Superman cannons, but I can't remember if that was the rematch or original fight.
I watched a video from SethTheProgrammer about it ages ago, and I don't think they ever made a retraction it.
@@powercore2000 Their research is consistant in itself, and it would have been the rematch that they mixed continuities since they mentioned but never used a new 52 move. Mixing Comics and DCAU if anything would make superman weaker and there wasn't any major continuity shifts for the version of superman they were using so even most of the elseworlds stories would be reliable sources for feats. All Star Superman may not be in the same continuity but the quote they used for reference is contextualized by the main continuity, it was only an elseworlds because superman dies at the end and they can't do that AGAIN.
Regaurdless of how you do the math, Superman comes out on top, mainly because his power scalling is the antithesis of how death battle works. Death Battle tries to find exact numbers while superman has the biggest number at default because his stories are about using that power to help the world without breaking it.
People are free to dislike the deathbattle but I have yet to see a single youtuber actually acknowledge that the problem with it stemmed from the match up and not who won. Because the idea that Goku and Superman are comparible in power is laughable, their story paths are complete oposites. Goku is always finding people stronger than him and Superman is shocked to find anyone who can even hurt him, much less fight on par with him.
@@Fanatic_Foremem SeththeProgrammer literally challenged their information and not the outcome. The problem didn't come from the matchup it came from their misinformation to create their outcome, which they didn't even need to do.
One of the reasons I like the Buu arc is how it can go from goofy shenanigans to gratuitous violence at the turn of a dime.
I really appreciate how you took the time to analyze retcon and the way the fandom is capable of editing the series. Very important stuff I’ve been preaching for years but nobody listens. This video should be seen by every Dragon Ball fan. Well done Lance, well done! Thank you so much!!!
I think Toriyama just doesn't remember Dragon Ball that well, and doesn't really care about changing details to whatever sounds cooler in his head nowadays. S-Cells and Lunch's fate come to mind.
Still, it's good to finally get a breakdown of where that clone idea came from. I probably got it from Death Battle too, back when I liked it...
I think he’s so busy and he also has amnesia.
To be fair he did retcons like this back in the day as well.
@@SlapstickGenius23
I have experience in writing by the seat of my pants. During this process you write something on the fly without giving it much thought...
That's probably why Toriyama's so forgetful regarding his work. Hell while proofreading stories from several years ago, I'll come across a line of dialogue or narration that I won't remember writing and will have the following reaction:"Wait, I wrote that?"
"Trunks and Goten dont have tails because I forgot to draw them".
And its been 25 years since then, just imagine.
That’s a lame recon. Bibidi wasn’t exactly a sympathetic character to begin with. It seems unnecessary to remove the one trait that humanizes him only a tiny bit, and in the worst way. Especially since a bit part of this arc is learning how incompetent Shin is.
I feel like the Water could still be poison WITHOUT Goku being a Saiyan, remember even before the alien retcon, Goku was still "special" in some nondescript way, so even without the Saiyan Zenkai, his training ethic and inherent "goodness" or whatever could still be an argument in favor of the "poison water" idea.
WHY would it be poison, then? If Yajirobe was somehow really right, then Karin, a god with knowledge passed down from the heavens, just gave Goku poison on an uneducated gamble, and Goku basically lucked out that he had the biology to both overcome it and gain a power-up from it.
Considering how Shin is it's safe to say that gods in Dragon Ball are almost always dumb
@@najadamu2724 I think about it in much the same way as the Stand Arrow from JoJo, or a more exaggerated version of caffeine in real life. It's a poison, sure, and whatever it's derived from developed it as a defensive measure, to kill things that would fuck with it. But, in controlled doses, people can potentially survive its effects, and benefit greatly from doing so.
I'm surprised there aren't more RPG Dragon Ball games like Attack of the Saiyans. Dabura's stone spit could be a Petrification ability, for example, not to mention a the way a number of other special skills could work in that format. Guldo and Hit's time abilities, Buu's Candy Beam, etc. I guess the downside is that so much of Dragon Ball is 1v1 fights that it kind of goes against the RPG grain of having a lot of party members? Still, I wouldn't mind seeing more of that kind of style of game.
YESS Attack of the sayians was so much fun!! I have always wanted to see a sequel to it going through Friza, Cell, Buu maybe even GT if they are feeling brave.
There is a bunch of old Dragon Ball RPGs from the 80s and the 90s, though they're often quite slow and repetitive .
Yeah, I believe that the reason is that DragonBall has a largely linear "people beat each other up with fists and blasts" style of combat, while things like Magic tend to be the exception, and generally go against the rest of the power system, due to Magic generally ignoring the physical resistances of the enemy there. In RPGs, combat is usually based on the very difference of skills between each other: elemental affinities, status effects, buffs, debuffs, this, that, etcetera, etcetera... It's not like it's imèpossible as you said though since Dragon ball heroes follow a similar style of battle to JRPGs, and Xenoverse allows a decent variety of customization in terms of abilities, combined with the much more traditional fighting game genre where Dragon ball is much more successful.
I've played the NES Dragon Ball games and there really good RPG's even if the battles are really slow.
In one of the best Dragon Ball games ever created: Dragon Ball Z: Legendary Super Warriors for Gameboy, Dabura's spit is a card with 20% accuracy that straight up ends the match. I got unlucky one time and got one-shotted by Fat Buu. That game is super sick and every character is viable with characters like Kid Buu, Pefect Cell, Gotenks, and Vegito being OP as hell.
As far as I'm concerned he's his asexually reproduced son. Just like Namekians do.
The Piccolo Jr. to Bibidi's Piccolo Daimao.
And how Frieza's species does as well. (Since toriyama stated that king cold gave birth to frieza).
There is also the interesting fact that in Dragonball heroes, toriyama confirmed that frieza's species can grow hair, but its a rare genetic thing and even drew it in the concept art; however this was in heroes which (unless the manga or anime confirms this) is likely only canon in the game continuity (In my opinion).
The continuity where dragonball heroes, dragonball online, tenkaichi, budokai, Xenoverse, Dokkan, Legends, etc... are. Which is why some games do crossovers with each other; I like to think of that as it's own thing (Until toriyama confirms it later himself).
@@TheAzulmagia Although, unlike Daimao, Babidi apparently didn't get all the memories of Bibidi. He mentions that he never saw Majin Boo before and, so, couldn't tell 100% that this pink fat guy was him until Kaioshin confirmed it. And he says he knows the password to reseal Boo because he read his "father's notes".
@Faze Gohan To be honest if we just say that Babidi is Bibidi's "Son" in a generic term it works both ways, like explained in the video and you can chose which one you want him to be yourself.
Personally I just see Babidi as Bibidi's son in the most common term as child.
Even the word play "Bibidi > Babidi > Buu" eludes to this.
@@najadamu2724 In Piccolo‘s case, it’s straight up reincarnation which is why he’s got all of the old Piccolo‘s memories.
This whole episode FASCINATES me greatly. Like many people, I was heavily under the impression that the whole "Babidi was always meant to be a clone" thing was fact. Though I should note I thought this before Death Battle, I read the interview and admittedly completely misread the context since I was fairly fresh to the idea of trying to learn almost everything I can about one of my favorite series. But seeing the explanation and getting outright direct confirmation based on the original unaltered Japanese manga that this was nothing more than a retcon? Now I just feel incredibly silly... but also very informed.
Honestly as someone who only just got into this series recently while trying to pass time in quarantine? I think this is my favorite aspect about watching it. While I often disagree with many of the opinions expressed on here outright, I just love all the interesting little new tidbits and info I learn from this. It gives me such a better understanding of the franchise and honestly? It makes me even more interested in reading the manga when before I only read the half that was covered by Dragon Ball Z.
12:01 death battle can be very misleading sometimes, ask the ben 10 community
Literal example in the show that the way they finished the fight WOULDN'T HAPPEN. Annoys me they're the most popular vs show on RUclips.
Man shoutouts to when they cut off the Omnitrix despite showing it has a feedback wave IN THE SAME EPISODE, also showing the Big Bang clip and not the Omnitrix failsafe clip despite it ALSO being in that episode. Death Battle's extremely misleading and its frustrating
Don't forget when they calculated that goku would be the same speed in base then when goku was in ss2. Or when they downplayed sonic to an unimaginable degree.
@@Ando1428 They calculated Goku's speed in the Buu Saga as they explained in the video. It helps when you pay attention to those kinds of details
@@ShinobiPXO ? I'm talking about the clip where they list his speeds in each form. On that vid ss2 and base form had near the same speed despite super saiyan being faster. Now it's been awhile since I saw the video but I remember that scene.
I sometimes think retcons like the ones discussed here are actually a creator's original ideas that were reigned in by an editor. I am pretty sure these days Toriyama-sensei receives apology letters from editors on the regular. "We're sorry it took Dragon Ball Evolution for us to realize that your true genius is best left unchecked. Please accept this arrangement of fruits in the shape of a colorful poo as an apology that satisfies your insanely perfect sense of humor."
Death Battle also made me think it was a mistranslation. I'm glad you didn’t hate on them. The English dub of DBZ Kai the final chapters from 2017 still says Babidi is Bibidi’s child. It’s funny how there are retcons that people don’t even realize are retcons. I use to think that Goku was always meant to be an alien and Toriyama was just waiting to reveal it.
Enough of this in-depth analysis and context. Who would win in a fight between Majin Buu and Kirby, cuz they’re both pink? We need to start categorizing feats of power!
Kirby
They are both pink AND have the power to absorb enemies and use their abilities.
By feats of power Kirby would actually win I think. He fights interdimensional gods because he lost a snack or some shit.
@Molecule Man you can eat ki blasts
And either spit it back or absorb it
Singing: I think im a clone now
There's always two of me just hanging around
4:00 And here I was expecting an hour-long analysis video on Yamu.
I can't wait for the episode on Majin Vegeta where we have to get again discuss vegeta's true alignment and whether or not the Majin power awakens actual evil or works for guilt because if Vegeta himself is saying his actions are unforgivable then it's because he's good and knows he did something bad otherwise he wouldn't regret them.
I always saw it as one's evil being not only brought to the surface but amplified as well.
Majin means demon and demons dont know theyre evil. Look at christ and legion in the bible
@@HistoryandReviews I mean in the story of Dragonball did the Demon King Piccolo see him self as Evil.
But Boo on the other hand does not so I don't know.
2:44 Majin Bulma... THAT would've been awesome!
The way you described and question being a Majin reminds me of being Vampire in the Buffyverse. Their personalities are still the same, but and their bad impulses are brought to the surface.
okay
but how about
get this
majin
lunch
@@jonmahashintina Ohhh, even better! She'd be bad her good form and badder in her bad form.
I mean we kinda get Majin Bulma in GT. The villain just was called baby.
@@TheParappa Dang it, just when I thought that word died down a bit, oh well. But true, very kinda not really.
@@jonmahashintina So just blond Launch?
Yamu is one half of Yamcha's name.
Me: Dying of laughter!
And look! He even dies just as fast as Yamcha!
Poor do
@@squirtluigi *Dolt*
I think you missed the joke Lucas.
@@AstralTaurus
Dang I was gonna make a similar joke too.
Dabura’s battle plan / kill order has always made perfect sense to me. Bobbidi’s conditions are: 1) take Kaioshin alive, 2) lure in the three powerful guys, and 3) the rest are expendable. Ergo, kill Kibito first (since his energy is useless anyway) and take the two weaker fighters hostage by spitting on them. And it more or less plays out precisely as they planned.
@Sun Wu-Entai 90 The most weird thing is that Dabura cannot sense energy yet still knew they were there and who is the strongest.
19:00
"But that's a topic for anothe-" **Ad-Break** "er day."
Time to go in and change the ad placement again!
God, the difference in art when you post pages from the Freeza saga is abismal. And this is coming from someone who appreciates Togashi's sketchy art.
15:55
That would suggest that whoever started the legend of the Ultra Divine Water somehow foresaw that a pure-hearted saiyan would come to live on earth and eventually come to seek out that poison. It's more of a prophecy (and a borderline self-fulfilling one at that, since it was hearing about this prophecy that caused Goku to fulfill it) than a traditional description of how the drink is supposed to work.
I feel like I’m running down the Serpentine Road with how many DBD episodes I’m binging to get to the current point in the series in time for the end of GT. LOL
Would’ve been cool to have piccolo and Daibura fight Demon king vs Demon King
At this pace there is no way you are finishing boo in less than 20 episodes.
And hey, i'm all up for it.
Speaking of Retcons, Pokemon must be a retconning nightmare.
Most stuff toriyama retcons about db in the last 25 years since he finished writing stuff a( needlessly complicate something e.g. the dreaded s cells thing, b) add extra context to the story that just make me think by all means this should have been always part of the text if he had planned things out just a little bit more e.g. #16 being based off gero's son
So the babbadi thing needless to say has thrown me for a loop too
I don't mind S-Cells. They explain why Goten and Trunks became Super Saiyans so easily.
@@caelinnis they are self contradictory though, I suppose if you want to take it as an explanation in universe for goten and trunks seeing as there really isn't any other reason then sure I guess, just as long as you remember the only real reason at the time it was written was the irl reason that toriyama simply thought it was a funny idea and just went with it
Another example would be tenshinhan as an alien
Just ignore the old man.
Oh my, I've caught up with Dragonball Dissection! I started binge-watching this hidden gem around two weeks around ago, on the 6th of November if one of my liked videos which came out the same time I watched the introduction of DBD is any indication.
It's been a fantastic ride. You've championed Dragonball's strengths and pitfalls wonderfully. 💖 These reviews really do show Toriyama's strengths and limitations. He's a wonderful illustrator capable of producing some masterful works of arts and has a great imagination but on the other hand, his storytelling does tend to let him down. In particular, he's always minimising Dragonball's world for the sake of fetishing the idea of someone being "the strongest ever." While that works well easily establishing tension, it has the negative effect of making Dragonball's world small.
Roshi never needed to be the strongest on earth. In fact, given the Muten Roshi's instance that'd always be someone stronger out there to challenge his boys in the 1st tournament arc it would've been better if he wasn't. If he was just the strongest of a specific region in the Dragonball world, Toriyama could've left the world open to be expanded upon with further powerful and unique individuals for our beloved heroes to challenge.
Likewise Freeza NEVER had to be the strongest in the universe. It's space. The possibilities for world-building and storytelling could've been infinite had Toriyama not instantly reduced it to the size of a couple of city blocks narratively to lazily and uncreatively raise the stakes. Never needed to happen. Instead, it would've been fun if Freeza was apart of a ultra-uber powerful organization. That way, he would just be a small piece in a much larger narrative leading onto the next arc. Making him apart of an organzation instead of making him the Universe's strongest would not only leave space open as it should be, it would give the other characters fights of their own against the organization's finest so it doesn't all just come down to Goku to save everyone.
That would've been far more intriguing.
Toriyama's handing of the other characters, particularly Chiaotzu, Tien, and Yamcha, was awful. Chiaotzu does next to nothing, Tien becomes a dull good guy and Yamcha gets reduced to a walking joke with how often he's disposed of by the boss of the arc to hype him up. Not to mention he had his character assassinated so Bulma could get with Vegeta without looking totally heartless. It never needed to happen. Toriyama could've just took out Lunch from the storage he shoved her into and used her for Vegeta's son but handing a big cast really isn't his strong suit and it shows with how quickly characters like the aforementioned four are relegated to the background.
I appreciate Super giving relevancy to previously relegated side characters like Krillin and Roshi, but it still frequently poops all over Tien's character. Like Krillin being the strongest human. He really shouldn't be given Tien does nothing else but train day in, day out but he still is because Toriyama and Toei don't give a single crap about Tien, and also Krillin is Goku's best friend, so in Akira's head, he must be the strongest human. He has to be, he's Goku's best friend.
It's sad to see how Dragonball wasted its potential. It could've been an amazing series and in some ways I guess it is since it has stood the test of time (but I'd argue that's more due to nostalgia than anything else) I wish Toriyama had worked with a co-author, someone who could've served as the writer, because as an illustrator he's second to none but his weak character-writing and world-building (e.g Namek) really lets him down
Anyway, looking forward to more DBD goodness 😊🥰
I've honestly never bought that Babidi was Bibidi's magic clone, mainly because they barely look similar aside from having flesh-whiskers and wearing orange capes.
DBD December sounds really fun this time around. December's usually one of my least favourite months of the year, but this is one thing to look forward to.
Just realized. If Spopovich became bald because of Babidi, would Majin Vegeta eventually grow bald too if he remained under the spell?
Came for the Dissection, stayed for a the lesson on Retcons.
Cannot TELL ya how calming it is to come to these Dissection videos. Your words and sentences really compliment our intelligence. Out of all my favorite reviewers, you're the most chill in my opinion. Everyone else (even me) can be a bit over the top but it's refreshing to just sit here, sometimes during my lunch break, and just listen. :)
Not surprised it’s from death battle, I still can’t believe they gave venusaur sweet scent!
I never heard that about Babidi before. These kind of retcons or additions usually annoy me but this time, I can't help but feel it's quite intriguing.
However I'm pretty sure it's just a potential set up for more Bibbidi/Babidi clones to be used in the future, if need be.
Tory doesn't do set up of the sort
@@charliewenger7682 Sometimes he does.
he leans more towards on the fly writing, but he does set things up as well.
I don't know how I'd feel about a clone of him returning. Babidi wasn't a threat to the Dragon Team in his first outing. And if he had something stronger than Buu, surely he would've used it instead of Buu. Not to mention that Dragon Ball Super already has a problem of making call backs to older arcs that fans have nostalgia for rather than trying to just make new arcs that sink or swim on their own merit.
When has he set something up.
You're getting pretty close to one of the biggest questions I have, a few chapters away. I will say, I've only watched the anime (sorry), so it might just be an anime exclusive thing.. but...
At around the time Buu has his weird house, and Mr Satan goes to try and befriend him, Buu states he will wait 3 days before destroying stuff. He then goes to sleep, and wakes up like 5 minutes later, stating 'one day has passed'. It seems like the story was setting up a plot line about Buu not knowing how long a day is, and giving the heroes far less time than they think. ..but it's never mentioned again, and nothing comes of it.. .. and NO-ONE ever even acknowledges this set up being discarded. Given your series is easily the most indepth analysis of DB, I certainly hope you will address it in some form. :p
Interesting when Buu was sleeping it was just seconds much shorter to the months Super gives us
6 years I’ve been watching your channel crazy how far you’ve came
I'm always surprised by how quickly these videos fly by. Great work as always.
One of the retcons I like the least is coming: Piccolo's regeneration.
PS: people like to repeat things without even thinking, least analizing or searching the sources.
Yeah, so much of the discussions in modern DB fandom is playing the telephone game, and some people still going off of the original FUNi dub of the series while others somehow jumped in with Super.
So little people have even watched or read the original manga, can’t say I expected much from the revival fandom though
oh MAN this is a good DBDD lineup! The ass blasting of Vegeta is something ive been looking forward to since your discussion of his Cell arc stupidity, hearing you trash Broly 2 (i assume) will be amazing, AND a Dragonball Fashion Exxxxtravaganza?
And this is where the Anime tops the Manga in terms of Spopovich. In the Anime we get a clear cut backstory on Spopovich's rivalry against Mr.Satan because in the tournament prior Mr. Satan beats the crap outta Spopovich, which in term makes Spopovich have a grudge against him....so what better way to get revenge than to beat the Champs daughter and eventually lead up to his grudge match against Mr. Satan himself. we get more background on these characters and their connection.
There's also something else that can happen if you are a longtime fan: you can forget exactly when certain information came about. You may forget that there ever even was a retcon. Or you can think that a flashback was in the original. Unless you regularly go back and view the originals, it's just easy to not remember.
This is especially true if you came to the fandom "out of order," and weren't careful about avoiding spoilers when you went back. If you read up on your favorite stuff, and stuff from future info was kept in, you may think it's original.
As a fan of star wars, I would like to weigh in about the bad taste in retcons...
I do believe it is because of George Lucas. He certainly didn't create retcons. But during the prequels he started saying stuff like "it was always my plan from the start". Such as, Vader being Luke's Father. Luke and Leia being brother and sister. When there is evidence to the contrary-- Even in the movies.
I think you have the answer to whether you should continue discussing super and what it means for the story retroactively, from its inclusion of new universes, to its fiddling with godly hierarchy
Thanks for making these videos! I'm loving the consistency in your output.
Edit: Also I'm looking forward to your fashion analysis.
Bobbidi: "But... but Papa said I was a real boy!"
18th December, a day that will live in infamy, when MIstareFusion will mostly likely have a huge rant about Vegeta(continuation from Cell Arc part 12). can't wait.
11:16 - MistareFusion also has Bruce Faulconer music in his video! :O
Yeah, don't remind me. =P
welcome back to the show that covers chronological events at a snail's pace. seems fitting considering the events this show is covering are widely memed to go at a snail's pace.
Let’s goooo a new video🤩 can’t wait for Dragonball Dissection December
I've heen so excited for the Majin Vegeta moment since you foreshadowed your reaction to it in your "Vegeta: Team Player" video.
Lance in Boo arc part 3: I wonder how long it will take until Boo shows up
Part 13....... I think that just speaks for itself for how long this arc is
After binging this series for the last month this finally going to be my first Dragon Ball "Dissecticember". Can't wait.
11:50 Hahah I've watched that Deathbattle at least 5 times and that never stuck with me lol
Yeah bro, love your videos but this is making a mountain out of a handful of sand 😂😂😂 like he's still Bibidi's clone/offspring right; this segment is about why people think it's a mistranslation...for realsies??? Haha guess this is why I watch! So informational, almost to a fault! Lol
"Well it's a good thing that it didn't touch your skin Piccolo- o- oh." That's how it felt while reading it.
Me when a new DBD comes out: Yoooooooooooooooooooooo
I like how this episode is almost entirely dedicated on a myth the fans perpetuated.
10:13 Bibbidi face is what I think Mr fusion's face is when he comes to realize we thought that this was a translation error?
I could have sworn I heard that too sometime in the early two thousands. Though I don't remember if it was before or after my high school career.
Edit: 11:10 it's all Boomstick's fault! Lol 🤣
For the part about the Choshinsui, you don't even need the retcon of Goku's Saiyan biology to explain it as being a bit more than just an instant power up. Karin states that surviving it requires great levels of strength, mind and vitality, which ties heavily into concepts to do with honing one's Ki (which, even without Toriyama backing it up through later material with his explanations on Genki, Shouki and Yuuki, already had enough fame in eastern culture for the requirements to not be difficult to grasp for the intended audience). In other words, Goku was able to endure it where others failed because of having honed and balanced his physical, mental and living strength rather than main character plot armour or Saiyan retcons.
A more fitting example of Saiyan biology retcons to explain a writing decision would be (funnily enough also from the Piccolo Daimao Arc), Goku's heart stopping after Daimao attacked him only for it to start up again after he left.
genius
This is really epic I cant wait for the rest of the year!!
The building set Up for Majin Vegeta is being so, so, so sweet. 😂
Another great ep. Slowly but surely, we're going through it. I feel like I read the Boo arc in a haze.
this year for DBD has been the best and most consistent one I've been around for Lance and I appreciate it a bunch cuz I love your content
I didn't even knew about the Babidi stuff.
Btw, looking forward to the Majin Vegeta talk.
I love Christmas, so I like december already. But DBD really has made it even better these last years.
Also nice connection you made there with the Krilin spit thing lol.
I’ve finally caught up to this series after 2 months, keep up the good work I love your videos
12:55 Thanks, now I've got the image of Bibidi having sex stuck in my brain.
Newly subbed because of the Might Morphin' Zyurangers. Can't wait for the destruction, sorry dissection of Dragon Ball Z:Broly's Second Coming
You might be disappointed. Lance has started on Twitter that he doesn't get the hate for movie 10 and that it's the most entertaining of the original Broli films.
If he was a clone wouldn't he have the same memories? Why would he call himself Papa? This raises soo many questions...
Its like the trinity. If jesus is God why he have a God and call GOD HIS FATHER IF HE IS GOD
Babidi is a reincarnation of Bibidi, similar to how Piccolo Jr. is the reincarnated son of King Piccolo. Piccolo also had King Piccolo’s memories which made him hate Goku for example. Likewise, Babidi possesses many of Bibidi’s memories which includes his hatred for Shin, the Supreme Kai.
@@Kruegernator123 if that's true then shouldn't he know what Buu looks and acts like ?
Another great video. Can't wait for your December slate.
I just finished the last part after binging for the past few weeks. This is exciting
Man, I really enjoy your videos! I look forward to Dragon Ball Dissection December!
Very tangential, but since comments help appease our algorithmic overlords: The best retcon in the history of retcons was Tolkien explaining his retcon of the Hobbit's content with *Bilbo* (the in-universe author of the Hobbit) initially being dishonest about how exactly he got the ring from Sméagol, which then gives Gandalf a clue about the nature of the ring.
In this case... ehhh? If Toriyama was giving information about how he envisioned the villains' backstories at the time, but couldn't / didn't want to explore it in the story - cool. I'd like that. If it was in preparation of an appearance of Bobbidi and Toriyama had this cool new idea about him - also cool, I prefer a (fairly inconsequential) to Toriyama tossing away that idea. If it's just a random new idea that will never be used again - whatever, it doesn't impact how I read the original story in any way, so I don't really care either way.
I fall into the camp of " retcons can be good or bad". It really depends on the context, audience awareness, and reasons for the retcon. The most important factor is audience awareness. If the audience isn't hyper aware of the parts that are being retcon, the majority of them won't even notice.
I kind of like the idea of the Super Holy Water providing Goku with a zenkai boost BUT think it requires a specific way of looking at it. It is possible that BOTH the water has magical properties that cause someone's strengh to greatly increase assuming they can survive it, AND that surviving drinking it caused Goku to gain a zenkai boost. Thereby meaning he got two power ups in one.
i love how you say their names
This is very similar to the "Android #16 was modeled after Dr. Gero's son" retcon. It presents new context on the story's events, however, it not presented in the text itself, and even if you apply the new context, it makes no difference to the story. Retcons can be used effectively such as Goku and Piccolo being revealed to be aliens, however, one should take note that earlier parts of the series weren't made with that in mind, so it doesn't work in those examples. But one thing I'm not a fan of this revisionist history that has been crawling out of the woodwork in this modern era of Dragon Ball because it needlessly changes things that were fine as they were in the original text of the manga, and many things actively make the story worse such as Dragon Ball Minus.
Not everything an Author say could be considerated Canon if what the Author is saying is contradictory to the work. That's called "Death of the Author" trope, aka, "Word of God" can only get you so far as filling the gaps your work have, not changing what the work already stabilish. Hell, just look to what J.K Rowling does, and nobody agrees with her.
So long story short, we can perfectly ignore what Toriyama said about Bibidi not being Babidi's father and just focus on what the canon material say: that he is.
Except ignoring the authors intent is equally as likely to lead to poor discourse.
To be fair, when you have levels of destruction that can destroy a planet. It's not surprising that the characters of DB want to focus on using energy blasts. (That's an in-universe reason)
14:28 that's a great point!
I'm most looking forward to your final analysis on the Boo arc. It's so hard to pin down for me... I usually run with the idea that it's primary theme is itself, Dragon Ball, and is almost a deconstruction of the series until that point.
What is the most chapters you’ve ever covered in a dragon ball dissection video? (Apologies that this isn’t relevant to this specific video, but thought of this question and just went to the most recent video)
Man Id love to have a video about how having new dragon Ball changed this dissemination when this is all over
I’m looking forward to my third Dragon Ball Dissection December!
I always felt the Majin thing gave slight power ups to Darbura and the rest but since they were already powerful warriors it wouldn't affect them as badly. I'm thinking the reason Yamu and Spopovich were so jacked and looked about to explode is because Babidi grabbed two normal non ki user humans. I forgot if the manga showed it but I remember Spopo pretty much learned how to shoot energy blasts on the fly in his match with Videl. Regular humans can barely handle Babidi's magic.
The only odd thing is Yamu still seems more composed compared to Spopo who seems like he's barely able to contain his rage.
Looking forward to everything, can’t wait for that Vegeta roast
"When discussing retcons in fiction I tend to find friction with two different factions."
And so, to avoid consternation in ensuing conversation I must take care with my diction to minimize vexation.
- "Vegeta, to whom betrayal is not just a life style, but the zest that makes the morning worth it"
- "Something happens to Vegeta".
Oh, boy, I can smell blood already.
* I mean...I think that's what he says? I can't fully get the word here. O_o**
** Corrected. :P I originally wrote "jazz".
Zest.
@@MistareFusion OK, corrected. Thanks! 😊
(On a completely different note... Oh my god, senpai noticed me!
I wish it had been in a comment of more substance, but I'll take what I can get. 😅)
Thank goodness 2020 can't take away Dragon Ball Dissection December
Great content, as always. The best DB content creator.
Excellent and insightful video!
the day is saved!
I guess I have a mandela effect with this because I remember being surprised when I first saw Bibbidi on the cover of the American DVD singles being confused he didnt look exactly like Bobbidi because I thought he was a clone and thought he would be identical. I would have first seen that in 2009 when i discovered Daizenshuu EX (from your Dragon Box review) and saw their DVD guide but if it was first talked about in 2014, it must be some kind of misremembering. Maybe i did first hear in that Death Battle and then when i saw ever i saw Bibbidi again i was confused why he wasnt identical looking.
Well, for all we know, going off the 2014 information, they are identical. Remember, Bibbidi is never shown in the manga. He could look like anything.
This channel is awesome.
And yet not channel awesome?
Not gonna lie I had no idea this was a thing either but it doesn't really change much anyway