The Last Jedi I think is something that people appreciate more when you take a step back and appreciate the wider mythos of the film, rather than the minute details and scenes people need to slow to 0.25x speed to cherry pick inconsistencies apart. It went from one of least favourites to one of my favourites of all time, second only to Empire now.
Yes people do change but usually not on a whim, if they gave good reasons for Luke losing hope it would have worked rather well. But even you could provide only "but sometimes people lose hope" which is akin to somehow Palpatine returned. Somehow Luke lost hope, now shut up and consume product.
Sure, they could've delved deeper into Luke's history as well as Ben's. Leaving important details like this solely to the audience's conjecture is never a good storytelling move lmao. But i pin this more to the failure of the sequel trilogy in general to tell a cohesive story; I think TLJ did try to address things that should've been brought up in TFA 🤷🏽♀
I definitely understand why people wanted more backstory on how Luke became jaded and depressed and afraid to train Rey; I too think that would have been cool. That said, nothing about the movie suggests that Luke changed "on a whim". Something happening "on a whim" means that it happens with no purpose or for no reason. On a whim is somebody waking up one day and suddenly being a different person, and that is not at all what happens in TLJ. He had plenty of good reason to change. *They literally show flashbacks in TLJ about Ben turning to the dark side, killing his fellow pupils, and destroying Luke's school*. That's a pretty strong reason for a character to change. That's not "on a whim". We're talking about Luke's whole life work, his plans to restart the Jedi Order, destroyed... The Jedi had been around for millennia before being destroyed by Palpatine and Vader, yet Luke's own attempt to start a Jedi school failed with the *very first generation of students*. It's not that hard to see how traumatic that would be. But perhaps even more painfully, it wasn't just some random kid that fucked it all up... it was *his nephew*! The grandson of Darth Vader, the son of his two close friends! If that's not heartbreaking and discouraging, I don't know what is. Not only would he have felt like he failed Ben and his other students, but he would have felt like he failed Han and Leia. He might have even felt like he failed Obi-Wan and Yoda and all the Jedi before him. Luke, who was able to resist the dark side and essentially redeem his own father at the end of ROTJ, couldn't save his own nephew from turning to the dark side. Talk about a devastating blow. It's hard to understand that people don't grasp how absolutely terrible that would have been for Luke. I can understand why fans (including me) were curious about more details surrounding the event, but that doesn't mean it should have been included in TLJ. The nature of Star Wars itself is supposed to leave us wondering about stuff; it's simply not possible to answer every question that comes up in these types of films. As we've seen over the past 40+ years, the gaps get filled in slowly but surely as the Star Wars universe expands. And so, to say that the TLJ fails to explain why or how Luke changed is just simply wrong; they explained what happened just fine. I would argue that they included just enough information. It might not explain it with a level of detail that some fans would have liked, but that doesn't mean it doesn't explain it at all.
Exaactly this. TLJ provided us enough context to explain Luke's decisions and motives - his heartbreak and dejection. Should there have been more given to us? Especially regarding Ben's history? Absolutely. But again, I don't think TLJ alone needed to explain all this to us - this should've all been addressed throughout the sequels - particularly episode 9 (which doesn't exist of course 🥴) As a standalone film TLJ was bold and dared to go places that Star Wars didn't go before; and that's what made people uncomfortable 🤷🏽♀️. Luke's story clearly starts with him in a dark place, and ends with him being the hero and saving what can be saved. And I think that's pretty great storytelling.
@@soocheeroll My two cents. I've been watching Star Wars for a LONG time, and one thing that I've noticed (not to criticize or judge fans) is HOW much that fans will, to the bone, defend Return of the Jedi's depiction of Luke, especially in relation to this film. ROTJ Luke is most nonsensical, forced version of Luke, far more than TLJ's Luke is, supposedly. If I had a dollar for every time Lucas says or implies to some degree, Luke MUST redeem Vader ONLY and ONLY BECAUSE mythology supposedly does this good son must redeem the good-evil father pattern. The problem is, that ROTJ doesn't reconcile either common sense or emotion in terms of either ANH or TESB Luke. Especially TESB Luke, whose traits are barely present if not at all in ROTJ.
@@soocheeroll ROTJ is TLJ's problem. (And some of TESB, to be honest.) Or Lucas's bizarre ideas about mythology and the Vietnam war being put into a blender for a commercial abstract, efficient product starting to finally rear its ugly head from the defense of many fans after being ignored for decades of time. ROTJ was made on the butt-burnt end of Lucas's marriage to Marcia Lucas, who had had an affair in Lucasfilm at some point during or after TESB. There was a plan to have a 9 or 12 episode saga, which was condensed (3 or 6 episodes VI-XII or VI-IX) into VI. This condensation would, normally, cause some issues. Granted, I've read the first rough draft of ROTJ, and I still prefer it to the final film in many ways.
"Ben Solo is actually my baby boy" 😍😍😍 PERIOD
The Last Jedi I think is something that people appreciate more when you take a step back and appreciate the wider mythos of the film, rather than the minute details and scenes people need to slow to 0.25x speed to cherry pick inconsistencies apart.
It went from one of least favourites to one of my favourites of all time, second only to Empire now.
absolutely correct opinion yes! TLJ supremacy 💫
Hi Soochee, I wish you good luck with your channel.
thank you 🥹
I loved it
Yes people do change but usually not on a whim, if they gave good reasons for Luke losing hope it would have worked rather well. But even you could provide only "but sometimes people lose hope" which is akin to somehow Palpatine returned. Somehow Luke lost hope, now shut up and consume product.
Sure, they could've delved deeper into Luke's history as well as Ben's. Leaving important details like this solely to the audience's conjecture is never a good storytelling move lmao. But i pin this more to the failure of the sequel trilogy in general to tell a cohesive story; I think TLJ did try to address things that should've been brought up in TFA 🤷🏽♀
I definitely understand why people wanted more backstory on how Luke became jaded and depressed and afraid to train Rey; I too think that would have been cool.
That said, nothing about the movie suggests that Luke changed "on a whim". Something happening "on a whim" means that it happens with no purpose or for no reason. On a whim is somebody waking up one day and suddenly being a different person, and that is not at all what happens in TLJ. He had plenty of good reason to change.
*They literally show flashbacks in TLJ about Ben turning to the dark side, killing his fellow pupils, and destroying Luke's school*. That's a pretty strong reason for a character to change. That's not "on a whim".
We're talking about Luke's whole life work, his plans to restart the Jedi Order, destroyed... The Jedi had been around for millennia before being destroyed by Palpatine and Vader, yet Luke's own attempt to start a Jedi school failed with the *very first generation of students*. It's not that hard to see how traumatic that would be.
But perhaps even more painfully, it wasn't just some random kid that fucked it all up... it was *his nephew*! The grandson of Darth Vader, the son of his two close friends! If that's not heartbreaking and discouraging, I don't know what is. Not only would he have felt like he failed Ben and his other students, but he would have felt like he failed Han and Leia. He might have even felt like he failed Obi-Wan and Yoda and all the Jedi before him. Luke, who was able to resist the dark side and essentially redeem his own father at the end of ROTJ, couldn't save his own nephew from turning to the dark side. Talk about a devastating blow. It's hard to understand that people don't grasp how absolutely terrible that would have been for Luke.
I can understand why fans (including me) were curious about more details surrounding the event, but that doesn't mean it should have been included in TLJ. The nature of Star Wars itself is supposed to leave us wondering about stuff; it's simply not possible to answer every question that comes up in these types of films. As we've seen over the past 40+ years, the gaps get filled in slowly but surely as the Star Wars universe expands.
And so, to say that the TLJ fails to explain why or how Luke changed is just simply wrong; they explained what happened just fine. I would argue that they included just enough information. It might not explain it with a level of detail that some fans would have liked, but that doesn't mean it doesn't explain it at all.
Exaactly this. TLJ provided us enough context to explain Luke's decisions and motives - his heartbreak and dejection. Should there have been more given to us? Especially regarding Ben's history? Absolutely. But again, I don't think TLJ alone needed to explain all this to us - this should've all been addressed throughout the sequels - particularly episode 9 (which doesn't exist of course 🥴) As a standalone film TLJ was bold and dared to go places that Star Wars didn't go before; and that's what made people uncomfortable 🤷🏽♀️.
Luke's story clearly starts with him in a dark place, and ends with him being the hero and saving what can be saved. And I think that's pretty great storytelling.
@@soocheeroll My two cents. I've been watching Star Wars for a LONG time, and one thing that I've noticed (not to criticize or judge fans) is HOW much that fans will, to the bone, defend Return of the Jedi's depiction of Luke, especially in relation to this film. ROTJ Luke is most nonsensical, forced version of Luke, far more than TLJ's Luke is, supposedly.
If I had a dollar for every time Lucas says or implies to some degree, Luke MUST redeem Vader ONLY and ONLY BECAUSE mythology supposedly does this good son must redeem the good-evil father pattern. The problem is, that ROTJ doesn't reconcile either common sense or emotion in terms of either ANH or TESB Luke. Especially TESB Luke, whose traits are barely present if not at all in ROTJ.
@@soocheeroll ROTJ is TLJ's problem. (And some of TESB, to be honest.) Or Lucas's bizarre ideas about mythology and the Vietnam war being put into a blender for a commercial abstract, efficient product starting to finally rear its ugly head from the defense of many fans after being ignored for decades of time.
ROTJ was made on the butt-burnt end of Lucas's marriage to Marcia Lucas, who had had an affair in Lucasfilm at some point during or after TESB. There was a plan to have a 9 or 12 episode saga, which was condensed (3 or 6 episodes VI-XII or VI-IX) into VI. This condensation would, normally, cause some issues. Granted, I've read the first rough draft of ROTJ, and I still prefer it to the final film in many ways.