while i recognize that you CAN find matches for something like +r you also need to be upfront and honest about how youre finding the matches and how quickly you find them, personally for me if i ever ping a match making role in a discord chances are i will not find a match in a timely manner vs an actual alive game where i can find a match within seconds of queuing up, while i agree that "dead games" arent 100% dead, telling people to not pay attention to steam charts and to just go find a match also doesnt acknowledge that its not very convenient and is in fact a large reason as to why people are turned off
I can personally find regular matches in +r without much problems Also smaller player base makes me more motivated to play because when you are 10% of the playerbase in a given region you feel some responsibility to show up And if you picked that game because it seemed like the best game for you it makes you more invested in the community And in a discord fighter you tend to know people more personally over time which makes it more fun as well
hop on quick match and there's gonna be a match either immediately or you wait for like 2 minutes for someone to free up. and there's always someone on your level
Idk if other anime game is like this but I really like how uni series combo is pretty interchangeable. Like if you know your launcher and basic combo theories, you can actually just free style your combo. Sure it is not optimal but it what I come up with on the spot. I play ggst and I feels like there is not much room for creativity because you have to go into a certain route for a specific starter. Then there is granblue which is my fav game rn that I can just focus on playing neutral and fundies.
If they are going to add easy/auto combo controls in a game - keep the strict input also. I don't care for games that *only* have baby controls - there's no sense of accomplishment there. Also, the risk of mis-input is what makes the game interesting.
To anybody that has performed a Raging Demon input, you may enjoy this story: I was playing the Dramcast JJBA game, where Dio and Jotaro have their Time Stop Supers as [button, button, Pad, Button, Button] inputs. I was the best at this kind of input so it waa my job to pit in cheat codes XD There's an achievement to repeat that Dio Vs Jotaro scene. Me: ! ... I forgot the input --- "Road roller da!!!" I blocked, THEN I DID IT Not the proper timing, but I remembered it, so I did it next attempt.
i agree with you that we can always just play old games but its just not fair there is not a single high execution NEW game anymore. should be releasing something for everyone. especially since unlike granblue which was built for beginners from the start, gg or street fighter always had execution and got bastardized later.
I just want to add that I think ways to circumvent motion inputs are good as they are drastically more difficult to do on a controller/pad (something most new players will probably use in FGs). However I don't want there to be a future where fighting games are made with no motion inputs whatsoever. They are integral to them and balance them, hell even stylish games like DMC and Bayonetta have pseudo motion inputs (really more like charge inputs, no quarter circles or anything but still). Edit: I exaggerated how difficult motion inputs are on controller, bad habit. Still some struggle with them.
This is awful. This sounds like me when I listen back to recordings of myself and it doesn't sound right. Like legit not just the pitch, but the cadence, trailing vocal fry at the end of some sentences, and everything is exactly like mine. Good video though
this is just factually wrong and the easy evidence of this is, many capcom cup winners for street fighter play motion charaters and use pad (menard, idom and punk). i myself can use pad and arcade stick interchangably almost. im still better on pad most of the time, i just like the feel of stick so i want to learn it. i also personally just enjoy experimenting on how i engage with games, so i go out of my way to try different control options, im still looking to try leverless in future not because ive heard they are better for anything but because i want to feel it and if it does end up being my prefered way to play ill stick with it.
@@copm4260 I didn't say stick is overall better but I for one struggled doing motion inputs on controller mainly due to pain. Funnily enough I eventually played the first 4 Silent Hill games and now I have calluses on my thumb so it doesn't hurt anymore. Still I prefer Stick because I have chronic wrist pain and I find it the most ergonomic option since there's a variety of ways to input motions (with my entire arm for instance, thus not straining my wrist so much), but that's just me. Either way people struggle with motion inputs sometimes and modern controls make it easier to get into FGs for them. Though like I said, I hope there isn't a future where modern is the only option.
i also personally prefer stick, i just love the feed back that it gives, even if i am better on pad because i grew up using it more. hope you enjoyed silent hill, im a huge fan of the first 2 i never had a chance to play the others because i didnt have a ps2 as a kid. when it comes to making it easier i actually just dont believe that it does, mostly because i know just how hard it actually is to play shooters and mobas at a high level and those motions are way harder than anything when it comes to doing a fireball motion. doing a perfect flick shot in valorant or something like that takes months to years of practice. the only reason people think its easier to get into shooters is because more people play them and alot of the skills cross games fairly well. which is the same for fighting game once you learn to do a fireball motion which normally only takes a day but maybe a week or 2 to burn it memory, you'll have that ready for any future fighting game. i have friends who have almost never played a shooter before in thier lives and i can tell you it certainly isnt just pick up play for them, they can barely control the camera for quite a while.i think this is just a truth about gaming in general and that is that it has an execution barrier, it comes with being an interactive medium. honestly thats one of the reason i love gaming because you actually have to wrestle with it. that all being said i think fighting games with modern styles arent entirely bad but i think they need to stick to thier own lane and be made from the ground up for that control scheme like project l is being done right now. @@Wolvahulk
@@copm4260 Yeah I think I prefer it as it is on Granblue or Project L mainly because it doesn't divide the player base into control schemes. I simply don't want stuff like Project L to be the ONLY style of FG on the market, I want my motion controls. That said I played some shooters and I'm simply terrible at aiming so I only do so very casually. However I come from League of Legends and I don't think execution is nearly as hard as it is in say Street Fighter at least. The hardest combo I can think of is Riven fast Q into any other string (so fast Q into Tiamat into R, W then auto for instance). So there are champions that bank on execution for sure, but League is a game of Macro first and Micro second. I think (though I am technically new to FGs, long story) that in fighting games both Macro and Micro play a massive role regardless of your choice of character, at least in the majority of games. I still agree that many think of FGs as hard to get into simply because they haven't played them nearly as much as other genres. Lastly, I enjoyed Silent Hill a lot, sad that Konami doesn't seem to care about the series so much. I hope Bloober does though, with the upcoming remake of SH2.
but fgc will never specify what makes a combo hard. You people aren't smart enough to have nuance in a conversation. In your minds lowering skill floor automatically means lowering skill ceiling. 4:32 you know they won't. we already have examples with rev2, +r, mkx, mbaacc. They got rollback but online stayed the same. People like to talk about these games more than they like playing them 7:29 he was so close to understanding
I'm interested in what you would define as a hard combo. Could you give an example? I personally think a combo is hard when the time frame to land the next hit is extremely strict. Not so much the inputs overall
@@TheRealDerpSquadron I agree. I didn't formulate my thoughts well. For some reason fgc somehow jumps from easy specials to easy combos. Let's take sidewinder loops for example. If sidewinder would be executed with 1 bottom it won't become much easier, because you need to do a clean hit. The hard part comes from timing which depends on the weight, amount of hits and corner. Sidewinder loops are hard and simple (if you can do motions and they take a weekend to learn how to do at max) at the same time.
getting rid of motion controls doesnt just make things easier because it does make timing things harder to start with until youve burnt them into muscle memory and even then under pressure your gonna fuck them up. secondly with out them you are going eventually negatively effect move diversity, no matter what you will always run out of move binding eventually. the motions were originally used to give you access to stronger hard to use attacks simple as. you're looking at this as some one who has been playing fighting games for a long time and that the fighting game genre is well established but think about it critically, we cant just remove these things. like he said in the video, when you pull all these thing out of the game you get a very different game feel and all the combos people do will feel exactly the same. sure that can happen already but as it is now there normally enough moves built into the game thanks to the motions that you can make extra desicions about what combo to use in the moment.@@АртёмТор-к2ю
@@copm4260 1)I honestly don't see how getting rid of motion control can make timing harder but even if it does it sounds like good kind of hard 2) that's the valid critique. Diversity of character designs is the strongest part of fighting games, and I don't want to get rid of it. I was thinking about different ways to do it and the best I came up with is making a "special move" button. While pressing it with other button like 5p or 5k you would get different moves. And while it would work for some games, it wouldn't work for others. So I don't have a solution rn but I think it's possible to work around it 3) is you argument about strong hard to do moves from sf1? They got rid of this idea in sf2. 4) I never understood the argument about feeling different when doing different motion inputs. I've played subzero in mk9,x and 11. He has it different in each game and it doesn't feel different at all. Another example is i-no. In ggst her slide is 236s and in rev2 it's 41236s. It's a minor inconvenience but. If we take different characters, ky fire fireball(236s) and i-no(214p) are the same fireball in that sense that they doesn't feel different. So I don't understand how motion inputs can affect feel of combos. I think it's the same situation as 128 tickrate in CS and valorant
in number one that was me mistyping the senctence getting rid of motions would making timing easier my bad. i was mostly stating that where motions originated from and even in sf2 they still believed they were probably difficult to doatleast thats what the devs thought. for a couple of good examples of game where motions help with move diverity streetfighter 6 is quite good especially when it comes to chun li and uni that game they have so many moves that it uses simple motions and harder motions just to fit them all in. on your 4 argument it massively changes combo routing. also depending on the game different characters fireballs have vastly different properties depending on character or even the input, whether it be size or speed or interactivity. i would agree with you on the instance that i could see a system with out the need for motions work in some games but i think the game would have to either be made from the ground up with it in mind or already have a smaller move list already. i know that project l is actually designing with this philosophy right now and im still excitied to see how that game turns out ive always been a big fan of tag fighters @@АртёмТор-к2ю
while i recognize that you CAN find matches for something like +r you also need to be upfront and honest about how youre finding the matches and how quickly you find them, personally for me if i ever ping a match making role in a discord chances are i will not find a match in a timely manner vs an actual alive game where i can find a match within seconds of queuing up, while i agree that "dead games" arent 100% dead, telling people to not pay attention to steam charts and to just go find a match also doesnt acknowledge that its not very convenient and is in fact a large reason as to why people are turned off
I can personally find regular matches in +r without much problems
Also smaller player base makes me more motivated to play because when you are 10% of the playerbase in a given region you feel some responsibility to show up
And if you picked that game because it seemed like the best game for you it makes you more invested in the community
And in a discord fighter you tend to know people more personally over time which makes it more fun as well
I exclusively find matches via quick match in +R and it's always smooth for me, I'm Midwest
hop on quick match and there's gonna be a match either immediately or you wait for like 2 minutes for someone to free up. and there's always someone on your level
Idk if other anime game is like this but I really like how uni series combo is pretty interchangeable. Like if you know your launcher and basic combo theories, you can actually just free style your combo. Sure it is not optimal but it what I come up with on the spot.
I play ggst and I feels like there is not much room for creativity because you have to go into a certain route for a specific starter.
Then there is granblue which is my fav game rn that I can just focus on playing neutral and fundies.
You will be hearing from my lawyer soon I don't appreciate being featured without signing a consent form.
If they are going to add easy/auto combo controls in a game - keep the strict input also.
I don't care for games that *only* have baby controls - there's no sense of accomplishment there.
Also, the risk of mis-input is what makes the game interesting.
To anybody that has performed a Raging Demon input, you may enjoy this story:
I was playing the Dramcast JJBA game, where Dio and Jotaro have their Time Stop Supers as [button, button, Pad, Button, Button] inputs. I was the best at this kind of input so it waa my job to pit in cheat codes XD
There's an achievement to repeat that Dio Vs Jotaro scene.
Me: ! ... I forgot the input ---
"Road roller da!!!"
I blocked, THEN I DID IT
Not the proper timing, but I remembered it, so I did it next attempt.
i agree with you that we can always just play old games but its just not fair there is not a single high execution NEW game anymore. should be releasing something for everyone. especially since unlike granblue which was built for beginners from the start, gg or street fighter always had execution and got bastardized later.
I just want to add that I think ways to circumvent motion inputs are good as they are drastically more difficult to do on a controller/pad (something most new players will probably use in FGs).
However I don't want there to be a future where fighting games are made with no motion inputs whatsoever. They are integral to them and balance them, hell even stylish games like DMC and Bayonetta have pseudo motion inputs (really more like charge inputs, no quarter circles or anything but still).
Edit: I exaggerated how difficult motion inputs are on controller, bad habit. Still some struggle with them.
This is awful. This sounds like me when I listen back to recordings of myself and it doesn't sound right. Like legit not just the pitch, but the cadence, trailing vocal fry at the end of some sentences, and everything is exactly like mine. Good video though
this is just factually wrong and the easy evidence of this is, many capcom cup winners for street fighter play motion charaters and use pad (menard, idom and punk). i myself can use pad and arcade stick interchangably almost. im still better on pad most of the time, i just like the feel of stick so i want to learn it. i also personally just enjoy experimenting on how i engage with games, so i go out of my way to try different control options, im still looking to try leverless in future not because ive heard they are better for anything but because i want to feel it and if it does end up being my prefered way to play ill stick with it.
@@copm4260 I didn't say stick is overall better but I for one struggled doing motion inputs on controller mainly due to pain.
Funnily enough I eventually played the first 4 Silent Hill games and now I have calluses on my thumb so it doesn't hurt anymore. Still I prefer Stick because I have chronic wrist pain and I find it the most ergonomic option since there's a variety of ways to input motions (with my entire arm for instance, thus not straining my wrist so much), but that's just me.
Either way people struggle with motion inputs sometimes and modern controls make it easier to get into FGs for them. Though like I said, I hope there isn't a future where modern is the only option.
i also personally prefer stick, i just love the feed back that it gives, even if i am better on pad because i grew up using it more.
hope you enjoyed silent hill, im a huge fan of the first 2 i never had a chance to play the others because i didnt have a ps2 as a kid.
when it comes to making it easier i actually just dont believe that it does, mostly because i know just how hard it actually is to play shooters and mobas at a high level and those motions are way harder than anything when it comes to doing a fireball motion. doing a perfect flick shot in valorant or something like that takes months to years of practice. the only reason people think its easier to get into shooters is because more people play them and alot of the skills cross games fairly well. which is the same for fighting game once you learn to do a fireball motion which normally only takes a day but maybe a week or 2 to burn it memory, you'll have that ready for any future fighting game. i have friends who have almost never played a shooter before in thier lives and i can tell you it certainly isnt just pick up play for them, they can barely control the camera for quite a while.i think this is just a truth about gaming in general and that is that it has an execution barrier, it comes with being an interactive medium. honestly thats one of the reason i love gaming because you actually have to wrestle with it.
that all being said i think fighting games with modern styles arent entirely bad but i think they need to stick to thier own lane and be made from the ground up for that control scheme like project l is being done right now.
@@Wolvahulk
@@copm4260 Yeah I think I prefer it as it is on Granblue or Project L mainly because it doesn't divide the player base into control schemes. I simply don't want stuff like Project L to be the ONLY style of FG on the market, I want my motion controls.
That said I played some shooters and I'm simply terrible at aiming so I only do so very casually. However I come from League of Legends and I don't think execution is nearly as hard as it is in say Street Fighter at least. The hardest combo I can think of is Riven fast Q into any other string (so fast Q into Tiamat into R, W then auto for instance). So there are champions that bank on execution for sure, but League is a game of Macro first and Micro second. I think (though I am technically new to FGs, long story) that in fighting games both Macro and Micro play a massive role regardless of your choice of character, at least in the majority of games.
I still agree that many think of FGs as hard to get into simply because they haven't played them nearly as much as other genres.
Lastly, I enjoyed Silent Hill a lot, sad that Konami doesn't seem to care about the series so much. I hope Bloober does though, with the upcoming remake of SH2.
God damn I love this guy
Good video!
but fgc will never specify what makes a combo hard. You people aren't smart enough to have nuance in a conversation. In your minds lowering skill floor automatically means lowering skill ceiling.
4:32 you know they won't. we already have examples with rev2, +r, mkx, mbaacc. They got rollback but online stayed the same. People like to talk about these games more than they like playing them
7:29 he was so close to understanding
I'm interested in what you would define as a hard combo. Could you give an example? I personally think a combo is hard when the time frame to land the next hit is extremely strict. Not so much the inputs overall
@@TheRealDerpSquadron I agree. I didn't formulate my thoughts well. For some reason fgc somehow jumps from easy specials to easy combos. Let's take sidewinder loops for example. If sidewinder would be executed with 1 bottom it won't become much easier, because you need to do a clean hit. The hard part comes from timing which depends on the weight, amount of hits and corner. Sidewinder loops are hard and simple (if you can do motions and they take a weekend to learn how to do at max) at the same time.
getting rid of motion controls doesnt just make things easier because it does make timing things harder to start with until youve burnt them into muscle memory and even then under pressure your gonna fuck them up. secondly with out them you are going eventually negatively effect move diversity, no matter what you will always run out of move binding eventually. the motions were originally used to give you access to stronger hard to use attacks simple as. you're looking at this as some one who has been playing fighting games for a long time and that the fighting game genre is well established but think about it critically, we cant just remove these things. like he said in the video, when you pull all these thing out of the game you get a very different game feel and all the combos people do will feel exactly the same. sure that can happen already but as it is now there normally enough moves built into the game thanks to the motions that you can make extra desicions about what combo to use in the moment.@@АртёмТор-к2ю
@@copm4260 1)I honestly don't see how getting rid of motion control can make timing harder but even if it does it sounds like good kind of hard
2) that's the valid critique. Diversity of character designs is the strongest part of fighting games, and I don't want to get rid of it. I was thinking about different ways to do it and the best I came up with is making a "special move" button. While pressing it with other button like 5p or 5k you would get different moves. And while it would work for some games, it wouldn't work for others. So I don't have a solution rn but I think it's possible to work around it
3) is you argument about strong hard to do moves from sf1? They got rid of this idea in sf2.
4) I never understood the argument about feeling different when doing different motion inputs. I've played subzero in mk9,x and 11. He has it different in each game and it doesn't feel different at all. Another example is i-no. In ggst her slide is 236s and in rev2 it's 41236s. It's a minor inconvenience but. If we take different characters, ky fire fireball(236s) and i-no(214p) are the same fireball in that sense that they doesn't feel different. So I don't understand how motion inputs can affect feel of combos. I think it's the same situation as 128 tickrate in CS and valorant
in number one that was me mistyping the senctence getting rid of motions would making timing easier my bad.
i was mostly stating that where motions originated from and even in sf2 they still believed they were probably difficult to doatleast thats what the devs thought.
for a couple of good examples of game where motions help with move diverity streetfighter 6 is quite good especially when it comes to chun li and uni that game they have so many moves that it uses simple motions and harder motions just to fit them all in.
on your 4 argument it massively changes combo routing. also depending on the game different characters fireballs have vastly different properties depending on character or even the input, whether it be size or speed or interactivity.
i would agree with you on the instance that i could see a system with out the need for motions work in some games but i think the game would have to either be made from the ground up with it in mind or already have a smaller move list already. i know that project l is actually designing with this philosophy right now and im still excitied to see how that game turns out ive always been a big fan of tag fighters
@@АртёмТор-к2ю