Q&A: Can Bud Graft Used To Add a Branch? Yes, But...
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- Опубликовано: 18 дек 2020
- Discussing using bud grafting to add a branch to a fruit tree. Short version, yes, you can do that!
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With the blue shirt it looks much better, not that i was bothered in the previous video with the dark one. Great format of videos
cool video, food for thought, the other day I was reading a circa 1900 book on topworking walnuts and persimmons, both of which are want to bleed excessively and abort grafts. The book recommended "boxing" the tree as standard practice at the time, when grafting these type trees. This "boxing" was essentially girdling the tree below the new grafts with a saw or large knife. The idea it would stop the tree from flooding the graft with sap until it was healed in a few weeks. Ive also seen my neighbor actually fail to kill a large red oak near his house. He girdled it deeply all around with a chainsaw, it healed right past this and kept on growing haha.
yeah, some will die and some will heal ritht up. When they experimented with killing bay trees here to slow the spread of sudden oak death, they found that they basically couldn't kill them, even with large bands of bark removed. I've used slash cuts on walnuts for grafting, which I learned from alex suchan. He would just make about 3 or 4 pretty deep alternating cuts at the base of the trunk, rather than going all the way around. If you graft walnuts or similar, check out the videos of him on RUclips.
Love this channel! I have learned so much! Thankyou for your knowledge!
Very cool. I have a couple young peach trees I just picked up on sale that have taller trunks than I would have preferred without any viable buds low in the 24" height range where I would have wanted to establish initial scaffolding. I was thinking about budding some of their own buds to them in order to establish lower scaffold branches on the trees.
It could work. Probably won't hurt the tree mucxh to try.
I like you grafting series, please keep it going and keep on experimenting and showing results, great content
I have three blog posts on grafting stuff almost finished and trying to shoot some vids for them this week. We'll see, too busy actually grafting!
Great tip on the narrow girdling as a last ditch alternative to notching
Seems logical right? If notching doesn't disrupt enough, disrupt more.
I'm going to go for it. Your way and try that drill a blind hole to insert a scion into the hole then griiding with a hacksaw blade above. I keep threatening myself to go out and buy a growth regulatorr maxwell or more likely promaline $500 a gallon $99 for a quart of gribberlin whatever it is called . A fantasy mostly to create expailer trees
The notching is not really predictable it works fantastic occasionally and it takes maybe May June July and August for the the darn , notch bud to even begin to sprout some leaves
I'm glad your Patron ask the question.. you are the first I have heard that even mention the topic let alone had a side graft grow a new branch
I find notching pretty reliable for apples. But it helps to also reduce competition by removing extra buds. Also, it's best to notch before bud break. But There are no guarantees in tree training.
Great video explaining plant growth rules / habits. This mirrors my own experience. Thanks for sharing and getting this information out there Steven.
There really isn't a lot to it in terms of basic concepts we can try to put into play. I think we just have to realize that it's more of a black box than a simple set of rules, so sometimes interventions just are not going to work how we want them too as the tree will have it's own plans. I think of tree growth and structure largely as self competition, but probably also shaped by some genetic predispositions. Like apical dominance is obviously a thing, but some trees drive hard toward it and others really prefer to grow many upright trunks, or even to grow out and down. So some are hard to break from very upright central leader habits and others super hard to make grow that way.
I've read/heard in some climates and species bud grafting is purposefully done as two stages. The chip is grafted in late summer on a fully leafed tree that is storing energy, with the expectation that it will heal but not become active in the same growing season.
In late winter the tree is then dormant pruned or notched just above this already healed bud graft.
I'm sure you can speculate as well as I can on the reasons, but I suppose it has to do with either getting the bud growing first thing in early spring, either due to length of season or moisture/disease distribution in the local climate; or getting good fast healing from a fully leafed tree in warm weather and avoiding immature wood going into fall.
Yeah, that is common. In the central valley here, apparently, they do it a lot in one season, as soon as the chip is healed, but we have a long season and phenomenal growing condtions. But either way, it's kind of the same thing. heal the bud, then make the tree think it needs to grow that bud by notching, girdling or chopping it off. I've also seen to leave the top and use it to tie the new leader to, like a stake. I imagine those are girdled.
Just wanted to say hi! I'm from Croatia and i have discovered Your videos few weeks ago. I am crazy about fruit growing myself so i have learned some good stuff from You. I have an idea to try to cross two very, very old apple varietyes that grows around my town. I think they are very good, very tasty and have good genetics. I would like to try to get new variety from them. I have never done this before, so wish me luck! I would try to pick as many knowledge is posible from You, i can see You know a great deal of things about apples...
That sounds great, go for it! I'm sure there are a lot of very interesting out there all over the world that are not known outside of their local regions.
I love that wall. You didn't do a video on making it did you Steve?
No, but I'm thinking about doing one on it and how I make the tiles. I have to make a few more yet.
@@SkillCult Would be great to see that.
I have two northern spy x ? seedlings waiting out the winter, once they get large enough I might try to graft some faster fruiting branches on.
I'm not sure how that would play out. Whether the stock will control fruiting time of the varietal branches, or the varietals will override the influence of the stock. I'd tend to guess the former, but it might be some interplay of both.
Is that real wood on the wall behind you there? Did you build that? Looks awesome
Yeah, I might do a video on how I did those tiles, as I have more I want to make. It's ground up with a wire wheel to get some variation in the surface height, then charred deeply, wire brushed with brass to get the loose char off and burnished with a smooth stone and a very light rubbing of beeswax. Great effects with light! The thing I would do different is I would do the wire wheel grinding more intentionally and methodically to accentuate the natural grain patterns, rather than randomly. But it would take longer. It's slow, but worth it. that is all horizontal grain pine (aka flat sawn)
@@SkillCult I really appreciate the in depth response - A video would do really well, I’d imagine as they look incredible and I’d be stoked to watch. That’s now on my projects short list, given the details you mentioned. Thanks again!
I've seen a video on here where they notch just above a bud and also apply some PGR hormones. The one I saw was using equal parts Maxcel which is 6-benzyladenine (6-BA) mixed with Promalin which is a mixture of gibberellic acid 4 and 7 (GA4+7) and 6-benzyladenine (6-BA).
Another commentor mentioned Keiki paste which has 6-benzyladenine (6-BA) as the active ingredient so there may be something to this.
There is also an organically derived hromone callled cytokinin (sold as Cytokin) which claims to combat apical dominances and promote lateral branching in trees.
Unfortunately sourcing these hormones is a bit difficult since they are marketed to orchards and such so the one gallon quantities of Maxcel, Promalin, and Cytokin are about $150 each. Perhaps starting with Keikis paste is more doable for all of us.
This ia a topic I am VERY interested in as I am trying to create an espalier framework for 16 trees that are already 2-3 years old and many do not have branches at my first desired cordon height of 18"
I just think a lot of that will be unnecessary. I could see some special use scenarios, but as far as apples, pears and a lot of other fruit trees, notching is quite effective. The larger the plants get, the less effective it is though. But I have used it on cordons on wood 2 or 3 years old with success.
It might be worth considering just re training your cordons if you can't get what you want out of them. If the plant is established, you can grow a nice long shoot in year one of regrowth and possibly even some side branches depending on conditions and how established it is. Then use the notching and disbudding I use (see my fruit tree training videos) to get the scaffolds exactly where you want them.
Another option if you don't have buds is to chip bud in a piece like I talked about a little here and see if you can force that to grow with notching. If you have dormant buds though, I would go with them.
@SkillCult thanks, I will attempt to notch existing buds to force the growth. I will probably do very unscientific test with hormones and a control and see if I can get an idea of its efficacy. I appreciate the thorough reply and can't wait to pick up some scions this season!
There’s a full grown crabapple tree on my land about 8” diameter, I’ve grafted a couple twigs on it at a spot on the trunk two feet from the ground but they’re not doing much. Could I just cut the tree off above the graft and maybe live? If so, should I do it now, (East Tennessee) or wait till spring? Thanks.
Yeah, they are dominated by the other growth. One option is to reduce the other growth, but removing growing points on the tree, which will make the remaining growing points grow more. But it's still not likely to favor some random small branch that has no standing in the structure of the tree. Rather than chop it off, I'd tend to think trying the short term girdling method I talked about to force them to start growing. Even so, that may not be enough for them to gain any real standing if competing with a lot of other large branches. Hard to say what might be best without checking them out.
@@SkillCult thanks a million man, I’ll do that girdling thing. 👍👍👍👍
I have an idea which could possibly provide an alternative to notching and would be worth trialing for your fruit tree training. Have you ever heard of Keiki paste? It is a plant hormone paste that stimulates vegetative growth on many plants. It is commonly used in orchid care to get so-called "keikis" which are pups/offsets. The paste is applied on dormant nodes and forces them to grow. In the case of dormant nodes on flower spikes on Phalaenopsis orchids, the plant starts to grow pups.
Keiki paste also works on many other plants and "awakens" dormant buds. It would be really interesting to see whether it works with Malus to help get dormant buds growing. You can order it on Amazon or Ebay. It isn't cheap but you don't need a lot. Maybe it's also cheaper under another name, outside the orchid care context.
I think it's been mentioned before. I should look into it. thanks.
Yes. Thanks for the tip. I will Google it
When does notching stop working, on older trees? For instance, is there a diameter where after that branches won't grow out?
not very large. I have ringed trees with a thin saw to get the same effect when a branch would not grow, but it is risky. I might still try it under an inch. Usually it is pretty safe, with just a slight possibility of some kind of infection, so you could always try and see if it works. If there is a lot of growth on the tree pulling resources away, it can be hard to get lower branches to grow.
@@SkillCult thanks, man! You're the best
Where do you sell your experimental scion breeds
I auction some off, the rarer ones at least for now. I have some on my website in winter. The best way to find out when they are released is to follow me on instagram, my blog at skill cult.com, or sub and hit the notifications bell here.
Isn't it that the girdling starves the roots, not the top?
The top gets everything from the sapwood, right?
The roots get their sugar from the cambium when comes down from the top, right?
Never thought of it that way. I would assume a lot of stuff goes through the bark/cambium as well, but maybe you're right. I'll have to look that up.
Ok so I have a very young asian pear tree probably nickel thickness that is a tall whip with high branches can I cut that in half and use the top of whip with branches and graft lower to create those lower scaffold branches and have a good percentage of success
Maybe. There are potential issues. If there are any buds on the stem that would work, I would cut a notch abover each one you want to become a scaffold branch instead. Your chip grafts could fail, They might still refuse to grow for some other unknown reason. I'd say it has a pretty good chance of working if you think your grafts will take.
Nice to see ur video sir ,sir i want buy some Rubeyat, pink christmis & Grenadine stick for grafting. Plz sir wht can I do .
I have a franken tree I top worked 2 Bradford pears. I have 6 or more pears and apples mixed. these are planted near a leach field. main issue i have is growth. this is not an exaggerated measurement my graphs now will be 3years old this fall. but the growth is at a rate of over 6' a year. I have trimmed tree now twice. I am close now to 4 feet growth since last trim first of march. I am only getting fruit from the apples. I know the apples on a pear tree graft resist some and those that take do rake longer to adapt. Is there any hope at this rate of growth in ever getting pears? I seem to have a perfect place to save future graft stock but would like to eat a pear sometimes off my tree. I do not see any way to slow this growth unless cut the tree trunk. I am now having to cut limbs because bending and some breaking. any suggestions or thoughts?
I think they will fruit eventually if they look healthy.
SC, I have a 17 year old peach tree that produces just wonderful tasting peaches. Have no idea what the variety is. The tree is in awful condition due to neglect, etc. & I have only one scaffold branch left on the tree along with the top. Both the lone scaffold AND the top will need to be replaced. The top portion of the tree has canker & the lone scaffold is split right through the center and portions are beginning to rot. I just learned to graft last year after watching you and a few others on utube. Bark grafting I’ve had success with, cleft grafting, success. T budding on citrus was a failure. Patch grafting citrus, failure. All other grafts have been successful. Notching never tried. I will try a patch graft on this peach, never tried it on fruit only citrus, however is there any graft I can try on the trunk of the tree using a piece of Scion wood? I don’t think this tree has much time left and I need to get some scaffold branches started before it dies. I will pick off all her fruit so all energy goes to growing. Anything that you could suggest is welcome & a really big thank you for helping to teach me to graft! Molasses
Sounds like you should just replace the tree, either using suckers to regraft, or just a new tree. I'd have to see it though. I'm not sure about patch budding. In apples I've pulled off scion grafts into trunks, but it's hit and miss and peaches are much less forgiving.
@@SkillCult Yeah I really don’t want to let go of this variety of peach. Top working would be a last resort, and the lone scaffold has about a two foot section from the trunk where the wood is good & next month I was going to take it off and graft onto it. Once those scions (hopefully I could get 2 leaders) get established then I was going to take the top off in a couple years and hopefully get another 2 leaders. That’s the plan anyway. I was just trying to add on as much as I could before the tree really started to decline because along with the really bad canker it appears to also have shot hole borer in one of the few top branches. It looks as though the top has enough branches to produce enough leaves to photosynthesize and keep the tree going, hard to say though. This is a lesson for me to PAY ATTENTION, because one day you look up and go, oh shit! Thanks for the advice. Much appreciated.
I've successfully both T-budded and chip-budded prunus species in early summer using new growth green buds into last years wood (on the rootstock). Maybe buy (or grow from seed) another tree and try this? If the birds would leave them alone I'd be feasting on some delicious nectarines right now. They're on a dwarf tree (dwarf scion with prunus) that I T-bud grafted onto a young tree that grew at the side of my compost pile.
Dang I was late...
I'm more impressed with chip budding the more I do it. Pears seem to take to it very well in my limited experience. It can be done as buds are breaking to replace grafts that didn't make it, which is super handy because the chip bud bursts that season instead of t-buds which aren't ready to burst until the next year. One thing I'm puzzled about is the advice to gather bud wood from bearing trees. Why is this? It says this in that green cover publication from Ag Canada www.harvesthastings.ca/files/fruittreepropaga00span.pdf on page 5 it says to take bud sticks from "vigorous bearing trees". The vigorous part I get...I've done a few hundred successful t-buds with buds from trees that hadn't fruited. Do they take longer to bear?
I would guess that is exactly why, because the tree is already in a bearing mode. There is probably a study that recommendation is based on. I think here they do both T and chip buds in one year, but the growing season is very long. I don't know for sure though. I don't know that much about the fruit tree production industry.
@@SkillCult Perhaps the cambium is different, thicker in the new wood off the older trees than wood from juvenile trees. Better for budding takes. I don't see how bearing comes into it because the tree still needs 3 years or whatever to produce fruit...more like 4 or 5 years to get a good strong tree for the backyard gardener. The older tree has more oomph to put into the new wood and so the cambium is thicker. Anyway, thanks and looking forward to 2021.