If I recall correctly, 3v3s can occur in DS3 at the swamp or pontiff without using a dried finger. By just being embered you can summon two phantoms and, I'm pretty sure, you can get invaded by one red invader and up to three covenant invaders. It's just the cooldown timers that the dried finger eliminates.
"They view PVP as something you do as-needed", indeed. The fact that they made a gigantic open world but retained the rule that no invasions and no summoning can occur after defeating 2-3 bosses (despite DS2 and DS:R showing how much fun the opposite policy can be) says it all. Miyazaki retains his extremely limited view of what the online component is for: brief, highly contextual encounters. I understand his philosophy but not throwing us a bone late in the game's life-cycle by changing that (or the Taunter's Tongue) is very annoying and purist of him. About the player-limit and previous-gen consoles: it's fair enough, but at least allow the 6 player limit in legacy dungeons or something. They're less taxing than the open world and are basically DS3 sized anyway -- which clearly did work with 6 players on PS4. I'll continue to do what I enjoy: activate the TT and play "solo survival mode" against an endless onslaught of Reds. It gives you guys a break from the ganks. It's the only enjoyable option for me until their next soulslike comes out.
The colosseum dueling is loitered with hackers such as lag skipping, invincibility, invisible critical hits, L2 spamming, trolling, rushing etc. It just ruins the experience for those of us trying to enjoy a genuine duel and battle of wits with another genuine player.
@ColinBurkeMusic I'm playing on PC. But I've seen other people on PS5 experience as well but likely not as often. Sometimes I still win and they rage quit before I get my victory. I love Eldin Ring dueling. It just sucks that some people play dirty.
7:16 performance is not the reason of they cut multiplayer features. The game can handle 6 players on seamless coop just fine on a laptop with less performance than a base ps4, that was never the problem. They specifically scaled down all multiplayer features, even those that never required 6 players in the first place, like covenants. It was a choice not determined by any technical issues at all; whichever perceived issue there would have been, if they wanted 6 players, they would have easily solved. There are currently issues with the vanilla netcode (which isn't the same as ds3 btw) scaling up in player count, but those are solvable by fromsoft and were solved by seamless coop just fine, but they did not because these limitations were not a problem with a 4 player cap. They deliberately designed the game around 4 players.
@@BratSmimson-re9uw it's mostly to accommodate coop. the games where never really about the pvp but people interacting and affecting each others experiences
Dude I was foaming at the mouth just thinking about an 8player 5v3 but that dream died after the first year of launch. I really just want the host to have friendly fire because if at least he hits them on of the three people blindly smashing a button would have to think and use spacing. And don't even get me started with covenants!
One of my saddest memories around Launch was how hyped ChaseTheBro was for an open world souls that would maybe get 8 player limits. I'll never forget the "did we read that correctly?" disappointment when they announced 4. We tried to interpret it some other way but it became clear. To me the removal of covenants is a sign that they were less interested in roleplaying than ever before in ER. It's simply a one-and-done powerfantasy that they knew would make a lot of money.
As a player who participated heavily in the Bloodshades player covenant, I have always theorized that we ruined Elden Ring having a shot at 3v3 invasions
I think the taunter's tongue issue is overstated. Yeah it's annoying when it happens but it's rare, and you can always use the finger severer. Most hosts are just playing through the game. And the 4 player limit is probably for technical reasons. If they're going to change anything, cap the number of blues to 1 per invader. If you defeat the blue, the host doesn't get another one. And better phantom downscaling of course.
This is it. I don't know why can't people understand this. "They hate pvp", what a lame analysis. This is not a PC or even PS5 exclusive, this is an OLD GEN game, and I am 1000% sure the base PS4 can't handle 6 people spamming Elden Stars.
Depends what level you play at IME. TT toggle is pretty common at psn meta. Selection bias can play a role too. Lots of groups won’t toggle TT unless they need to. EG group will toggle TT once they get a good invader to deny them a co. It’s kinda like cheaters on PC. Ppl usually start cheating when they need to, not all the time.
I’m inclined to agree - outside of meta the TT issue is mostly a non issue compared to the actual issues of infinite blue resummons and OL phantoms. ER’s power scaling issue is baked into both the gear/spells and the co-op system itself. Maybe TT could be tweaked after those are addressed, but the average TT 3v1 wouldn’t be nearly as insane if the phantoms didn’t take half the damage and deal double damage, and be quickly replaced by blues on reserve.
It feels silly to say after putting over 2000 hours into Elden Ring but I just didn't really enjoy a lot of it. I think for at least the year leading up to the dlc, I was really hoping we'd see the return of gank city and an emphasis on a more traditional souls combat. All the major patches leading up to the dlc made it seem like FS was listening to the major pvp communities and were steadily moving in that direction. After the dlc dropped I think I played the game for a couple dozen more hours and then put it down and haven't touched it since. Without the the carrot of pvp-saving-dlc on the horizon I lost all the patience I had for the tons of things that annoy me in the single player game.
0:55 Actually that incorrect! I’ve used TT as a solo host basically the whole time I’ve played this game. (Over 1000 hours) I never turn it off, and I’ve never been invaded by two reds. Only a single red! If you’re a solo host and you have blues on you can get invaded by two reds, or if you have a phantom. This is one of my main issues with it other than having it being able to be turned on or off. I want to be invaded by two reds. But it will never give me that unless I have blue on.
re: the arena I dunno what it is but whenever I go there I cannot find a match. I usually visit when I'm around level 60-90 when I pass by the capital. It could be weapon level / soul level mismatch problems but I don't think I was that out of wack.
i wish a patch would come out and change Elden ring but that are just dreams LOL, i think the damage curve of elden ring is one of the big problems of why we dont have 2 vs 4 or 3 vs 3, even more with inexperienced phantoms vs experienced invaders with meta shit, activity is still slow af on ps4/ps5 and recently i replayed ds2 only invading, holy shit thats what a pvp focused souls game can do, on pc there are instant invasions at almost any soul memory, ds2 is really gonna outlive elden ring.......
Oh well. Elden Ring was a massive success compared to past titles, so FromSoft will double down on the next title much like how they handled Shadow of the Erdtree.
The game gets so much better when you just accept it how it is. Wi-Fi pvp and lasers. I spent the last 2 days invading non stop and got into the DLC at RL10 so I can have nice things. Life for me is good.
@The_Fearshredder4444 Thats because vast majority of the people who play this game do not engage in pvp at all,and if they do,theyre not happy about.Fact is,the game DOES suck,as far as pvp is concerned.
I can barely find invasion , and if I host I get toxic invaders act like I committed a crime for luring invaders .. For me this game unplayable unless I get 3 v 3 invasions like anor londo , or 4 vs 2 where host keep summoning and invaders keep invading with unpredictable outcome to the battle
"why didn't we get 6 player limit?" Answer: Base PS4 + 6 players + All spamming Elden Stars = 5 fps. People forget this is a last gen game. "They hate pvp" is such a lame and lazy conclusion.
Not to mention the AoE spam in general: Elden Stars, Moons, Blasphemous Blade, giant pots, etc etc. With 3v3 you take these issues(and the high damage in general) and you crank them to 11. Even if you can do 6 players it's potentially extremely miserable due to the spell/aoe spam
Do you think 2v3 would cause this same issue? I don’t think it would have. I really wish from had dropped the open world design too. Even then, the tongue still needs a fix for the constant and easy griefing.
@@Faminetheblack I agree it should be fixed. Let's hope there's one last patch addressing that before they end development. Although I think this issue is very overblown. I got around 2k hours on the game currently and a good chunk of that time was spent on invasions. I can count with one hand the number of invasions where the host was abusing the TT. But then again I invade at RL 90 most of the time and from what I hear this is more prevalent at meta level.
@@Faminetheblack Honestly I just wish they did a last patch addressing some balancing issues, some weapons and spells are a bit overtuned. And after that I wish they just focus on their next game. Elden Ring was a 10/10 from me, even with it's rough edges on the multiplayer side, I loved it. Kinda hope they'll do a multiplayer centric game for once, just to see their take on that, Miyazaki hinted at it in one interview, lets see.
The Taunter's Tongue working as-intended was the problem. I was really hoping they'd at least make it so using the Tongue would activate a Remedy automatically so that you wouldn't need to menu twice just to activate solo PvP. Fromsoft REALLY hates PvP'ers THAT much, huh? We can't even have THAT? All in all however, I'm starting to believe that Fromsoft (starting with Elden Ring) is either beginning to lose touch with their core community, or that they simply never understood why their games were consistently successful to begin with. It's totally possible. 343 Industries ran Halo into the ground because they had no idea what made Halo successful.
Yeah it's obviously working as intended. I think it is crucial for fromsoft games to disencourage competitive online since the massive audience tends to despise or generate controversy around it, instead of enjoying it like us. Their next big game will most likely not feature invasions as we know it. Doomer souls take.
Is it really 'broken' or does it just not work the way you want it to??? How does turning it on/off allow for abuse? I do wish the limit was bigger, having 2v2s is way more fun than 1v1s and obviously even more players would be even better In terms of incentive I would love better rewards for invading/co-operating. Rune arcs are nice and all but I bascially have infinite of them, if I could get Larval tears from invading then that would be pretty dope. Overall as someone who has only played Elden Ring and Sekiro but no other souls game, I don't think you do a very good job of explaining the issues for people who haven't played other souls games in this video. Without that point of comparison I don't really understand what most of your issues are, however as just an Elden Ring player I do wish this system had more to it.
We have to Accept that elden Ring is a very good solo Game. But Its not the beloved Souls Game we had in ds1-3. Its a commercial success and commercial success means, that toxicity ist involved. See Like fortnite: the First couple season were so funny it was so nice. But then came the thing, every Game gets fucked Up from: little toxic Kids, which got No Love at Home, which have No friends in life and which think, their KDA in Games will get them a girlfriend. Never undestood, what it gives to you to gank a Person with to OL Phantoms. You even dont get Something from that its insane. Hahaha their is No price for doing that, No Rank, No items, nothing. 90 percent of deticated "gamers" are Just toxic Kids, they give more fuck about their KDA than on their Real Life. For me as a Real Life Person IT means: No online gaming anymore... Its sad but let the toxic virgins Play with them selves 😂
Please stop voicing this stupid talking point "invasions are an afterthought for FromSoft, they mostly care about the single player experience." Literally every single level where multiplayer is enabled has been carefully, painstamingly designed around multiplayer. Nearly every level is chock full of sightlines, chokepoints, hiding places, and other points of interest that serve NO PURPOSE in singleplayer. A particularly obvious example is in Sealed Tunnel, in the room with the Vulgar Militia where you have to walk across the tree roots and avoid falling down below to the Iron Virgin. In singleplayer, the room poses almost no danger, as the player is unlikely to ever be forced to fight the Vulgar Militia on the tree roots, and thus is also unlikely to be knocked down. But the moment there's a skilled invader in the mix? The room becomes extremely dynamic, full of potential for interesting things to happen. The entire game is like that to some degree!
but the vulgar militia forces you to pay attention getting across the roots to explore the rest of the tunnel which includes an alabaster lord and divine tower at the end.
"Queen Miyazaki has high hopes for us. That we continue to get ganked as invaders. Unto eternity."
Bro 😂🤌
If I recall correctly, 3v3s can occur in DS3 at the swamp or pontiff without using a dried finger. By just being embered you can summon two phantoms and, I'm pretty sure, you can get invaded by one red invader and up to three covenant invaders. It's just the cooldown timers that the dried finger eliminates.
"They view PVP as something you do as-needed", indeed. The fact that they made a gigantic open world but retained the rule that no invasions and no summoning can occur after defeating 2-3 bosses (despite DS2 and DS:R showing how much fun the opposite policy can be) says it all. Miyazaki retains his extremely limited view of what the online component is for: brief, highly contextual encounters.
I understand his philosophy but not throwing us a bone late in the game's life-cycle by changing that (or the Taunter's Tongue) is very annoying and purist of him.
About the player-limit and previous-gen consoles: it's fair enough, but at least allow the 6 player limit in legacy dungeons or something. They're less taxing than the open world and are basically DS3 sized anyway -- which clearly did work with 6 players on PS4.
I'll continue to do what I enjoy: activate the TT and play "solo survival mode" against an endless onslaught of Reds. It gives you guys a break from the ganks. It's the only enjoyable option for me until their next soulslike comes out.
When the invader emotes ill accept the 1v1. If I lose I lose. Better than me and my friend ganking them and them running away forever.
The colosseum dueling is loitered with hackers such as lag skipping, invincibility, invisible critical hits, L2 spamming, trolling, rushing etc. It just ruins the experience for those of us trying to enjoy a genuine duel and battle of wits with another genuine player.
@@CrzYbaDmutha2245 I've actually never seen a cheater in the coliseum (I'm on PS5 though). Sounds even much more pointless than ganking
@ColinBurkeMusic I'm playing on PC. But I've seen other people on PS5 experience as well but likely not as often. Sometimes I still win and they rage quit before I get my victory. I love Eldin Ring dueling. It just sucks that some people play dirty.
7:16 performance is not the reason of they cut multiplayer features. The game can handle 6 players on seamless coop just fine on a laptop with less performance than a base ps4, that was never the problem. They specifically scaled down all multiplayer features, even those that never required 6 players in the first place, like covenants. It was a choice not determined by any technical issues at all; whichever perceived issue there would have been, if they wanted 6 players, they would have easily solved. There are currently issues with the vanilla netcode (which isn't the same as ds3 btw) scaling up in player count, but those are solvable by fromsoft and were solved by seamless coop just fine, but they did not because these limitations were not a problem with a 4 player cap. They deliberately designed the game around 4 players.
Fromsoft wouldn't make so many PvP adjustments if they HATED it
Most adjustments are just a matter of numbers tweaking, could be the doing of a single guy asside of bug/exploit fixing.
If they care about it,why is it so bad? Are they just THAT incompetent? Idk which is worse.
@@dearcastiel4667 right but if they HATED it they wouldn't care at all.
@@BratSmimson-re9uw it's mostly to accommodate coop. the games where never really about the pvp but people interacting and affecting each others experiences
@@Ghorda9 Agreed
Dude I was foaming at the mouth just thinking about an 8player 5v3 but that dream died after the first year of launch. I really just want the host to have friendly fire because if at least he hits them on of the three people blindly smashing a button would have to think and use spacing. And don't even get me started with covenants!
One of my saddest memories around Launch was how hyped ChaseTheBro was for an open world souls that would maybe get 8 player limits. I'll never forget the "did we read that correctly?" disappointment when they announced 4. We tried to interpret it some other way but it became clear.
To me the removal of covenants is a sign that they were less interested in roleplaying than ever before in ER. It's simply a one-and-done powerfantasy that they knew would make a lot of money.
As a player who participated heavily in the Bloodshades player covenant, I have always theorized that we ruined Elden Ring having a shot at 3v3 invasions
We? Who's we?
@@migraine9402 Probably the other players who played in the covenant?...
@@migraine9402 the other bloodshades
@@durpanda123 100%
@@Apexx27 So it's Peeve's fault? 😂
I think the taunter's tongue issue is overstated. Yeah it's annoying when it happens but it's rare, and you can always use the finger severer. Most hosts are just playing through the game. And the 4 player limit is probably for technical reasons.
If they're going to change anything, cap the number of blues to 1 per invader. If you defeat the blue, the host doesn't get another one. And better phantom downscaling of course.
This is it. I don't know why can't people understand this. "They hate pvp", what a lame analysis. This is not a PC or even PS5 exclusive, this is an OLD GEN game, and I am 1000% sure the base PS4 can't handle 6 people spamming Elden Stars.
This item is legit one of 2 biggest invasion issues as of now. 2nd is the spawns. If you think TT issue is overblown then you have not invaded enough.
Depends what level you play at IME. TT toggle is pretty common at psn meta.
Selection bias can play a role too. Lots of groups won’t toggle TT unless they need to. EG group will toggle TT once they get a good invader to deny them a co.
It’s kinda like cheaters on PC. Ppl usually start cheating when they need to, not all the time.
I’m inclined to agree - outside of meta the TT issue is mostly a non issue compared to the actual issues of infinite blue resummons and OL phantoms. ER’s power scaling issue is baked into both the gear/spells and the co-op system itself. Maybe TT could be tweaked after those are addressed, but the average TT 3v1 wouldn’t be nearly as insane if the phantoms didn’t take half the damage and deal double damage, and be quickly replaced by blues on reserve.
@@ahira-q8h Elden Ring is not an 'old gen game' by any margin what the hell are you talking about?
So that’s why I’m seeing more people move back to ds3.
It feels silly to say after putting over 2000 hours into Elden Ring but I just didn't really enjoy a lot of it. I think for at least the year leading up to the dlc, I was really hoping we'd see the return of gank city and an emphasis on a more traditional souls combat. All the major patches leading up to the dlc made it seem like FS was listening to the major pvp communities and were steadily moving in that direction.
After the dlc dropped I think I played the game for a couple dozen more hours and then put it down and haven't touched it since. Without the the carrot of pvp-saving-dlc on the horizon I lost all the patience I had for the tons of things that annoy me in the single player game.
0:55
Actually that incorrect! I’ve used TT as a solo host basically the whole time I’ve played this game. (Over 1000 hours) I never turn it off, and I’ve never been invaded by two reds. Only a single red! If you’re a solo host and you have blues on you can get invaded by two reds, or if you have a phantom.
This is one of my main issues with it other than having it being able to be turned on or off.
I want to be invaded by two reds. But it will never give me that unless I have blue on.
re: the arena I dunno what it is but whenever I go there I cannot find a match. I usually visit when I'm around level 60-90 when I pass by the capital. It could be weapon level / soul level mismatch problems but I don't think I was that out of wack.
Here's hoping the next game has coop invasions again
Nobody even uses spirits in colosseum
can't wait for the discord for sure
Thanks John keep up the good videos brother
i wish a patch would come out and change Elden ring but that are just dreams LOL, i think the damage curve of elden ring is one of the big problems of why we dont have 2 vs 4 or 3 vs 3, even more with inexperienced phantoms vs experienced invaders with meta shit, activity is still slow af on ps4/ps5 and recently i replayed ds2 only invading, holy shit thats what a pvp focused souls game can do, on pc there are instant invasions at almost any soul memory, ds2 is really gonna outlive elden ring.......
Oh well. Elden Ring was a massive success compared to past titles, so FromSoft will double down on the next title much like how they handled Shadow of the Erdtree.
Emotional Jon recycling his content…
The game gets so much better when you just accept it how it is. Wi-Fi pvp and lasers. I spent the last 2 days invading non stop and got into the DLC at RL10 so I can have nice things. Life for me is good.
Facts. People are mad that Elden Ring isn't DS3, but DS3 still exists. If you want to play DS3, you can always play DS3.
This. Lets hope for more... but lets have fun with what we have.
I host 2v2 invasions on Xbox. Most fun I’ve had since launch
Thanks Jon
Game just sucks, at this point its not gonna improve.
So that's why Steam reviews are at 92%.
Bro what? 😂
@The_Fearshredder4444 Thats because vast majority of the people who play this game do not engage in pvp at all,and if they do,theyre not happy about.Fact is,the game DOES suck,as far as pvp is concerned.
@@BratSmimson-re9uw just say that the game is great but the pvp sucks, your wording is pretty bad
people are still playing this game?
Yeah, like 27,000 people.
I can barely find invasion , and if I host I get toxic invaders act like I committed a crime for luring invaders ..
For me this game unplayable unless I get 3 v 3 invasions like anor londo , or 4 vs 2 where host keep summoning and invaders keep invading with unpredictable outcome to the battle
Only the people that can’t afford 70$ games
@@timmyturner6448 This game is still better than most games releasing today, that's why.
@@te529 I get a decent amount of organic invasions at RL 90 weapons +8/+20
"why didn't we get 6 player limit?" Answer: Base PS4 + 6 players + All spamming Elden Stars = 5 fps.
People forget this is a last gen game. "They hate pvp" is such a lame and lazy conclusion.
Finally, someone with a fcking brain cell!
Not to mention the AoE spam in general: Elden Stars, Moons, Blasphemous Blade, giant pots, etc etc. With 3v3 you take these issues(and the high damage in general) and you crank them to 11. Even if you can do 6 players it's potentially extremely miserable due to the spell/aoe spam
Do you think 2v3 would cause this same issue? I don’t think it would have. I really wish from had dropped the open world design too. Even then, the tongue still needs a fix for the constant and easy griefing.
@@Faminetheblack I agree it should be fixed. Let's hope there's one last patch addressing that before they end development. Although I think this issue is very overblown. I got around 2k hours on the game currently and a good chunk of that time was spent on invasions. I can count with one hand the number of invasions where the host was abusing the TT. But then again I invade at RL 90 most of the time and from what I hear this is more prevalent at meta level.
@@Faminetheblack Honestly I just wish they did a last patch addressing some balancing issues, some weapons and spells are a bit overtuned. And after that I wish they just focus on their next game. Elden Ring was a 10/10 from me, even with it's rough edges on the multiplayer side, I loved it. Kinda hope they'll do a multiplayer centric game for once, just to see their take on that, Miyazaki hinted at it in one interview, lets see.
The Taunter's Tongue working as-intended was the problem. I was really hoping they'd at least make it so using the Tongue would activate a Remedy automatically so that you wouldn't need to menu twice just to activate solo PvP.
Fromsoft REALLY hates PvP'ers THAT much, huh? We can't even have THAT?
All in all however, I'm starting to believe that Fromsoft (starting with Elden Ring) is either beginning to lose touch with their core community, or that they simply never understood why their games were consistently successful to begin with.
It's totally possible. 343 Industries ran Halo into the ground because they had no idea what made Halo successful.
Because they already made a lot of dough and don't care.
We invaders are Miyazaki's children he does care for us, its not that we are neglected, but we just not the favorite one
Yeah it's obviously working as intended.
I think it is crucial for fromsoft games to disencourage competitive online since the massive audience tends to despise or generate controversy around it, instead of enjoying it like us.
Their next big game will most likely not feature invasions as we know it. Doomer souls take.
Is it really 'broken' or does it just not work the way you want it to???
How does turning it on/off allow for abuse?
I do wish the limit was bigger, having 2v2s is way more fun than 1v1s and obviously even more players would be even better
In terms of incentive I would love better rewards for invading/co-operating. Rune arcs are nice and all but I bascially have infinite of them, if I could get Larval tears from invading then that would be pretty dope.
Overall as someone who has only played Elden Ring and Sekiro but no other souls game, I don't think you do a very good job of explaining the issues for people who haven't played other souls games in this video. Without that point of comparison I don't really understand what most of your issues are, however as just an Elden Ring player I do wish this system had more to it.
We have to Accept that elden Ring is a very good solo Game. But Its not the beloved Souls Game we had in ds1-3. Its a commercial success and commercial success means, that toxicity ist involved. See Like fortnite: the First couple season were so funny it was so nice. But then came the thing, every Game gets fucked Up from: little toxic Kids, which got No Love at Home, which have No friends in life and which think, their KDA in Games will get them a girlfriend. Never undestood, what it gives to you to gank a Person with to OL Phantoms. You even dont get Something from that its insane. Hahaha their is No price for doing that, No Rank, No items, nothing. 90 percent of deticated "gamers" are Just toxic Kids, they give more fuck about their KDA than on their Real Life. For me as a Real Life Person IT means: No online gaming anymore... Its sad but let the toxic virgins Play with them selves 😂
Please stop voicing this stupid talking point "invasions are an afterthought for FromSoft, they mostly care about the single player experience." Literally every single level where multiplayer is enabled has been carefully, painstamingly designed around multiplayer. Nearly every level is chock full of sightlines, chokepoints, hiding places, and other points of interest that serve NO PURPOSE in singleplayer.
A particularly obvious example is in Sealed Tunnel, in the room with the Vulgar Militia where you have to walk across the tree roots and avoid falling down below to the Iron Virgin. In singleplayer, the room poses almost no danger, as the player is unlikely to ever be forced to fight the Vulgar Militia on the tree roots, and thus is also unlikely to be knocked down. But the moment there's a skilled invader in the mix? The room becomes extremely dynamic, full of potential for interesting things to happen. The entire game is like that to some degree!
but the vulgar militia forces you to pay attention getting across the roots to explore the rest of the tunnel which includes an alabaster lord and divine tower at the end.
Dark souls 2 did everything better