Gay rights activist Dennis Altman's challenge to society in 1972 | RetroFocus
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- Опубликовано: 8 май 2019
- Academic and gay rights activist Dennis Altman appeared on ABC's 'Monday Conference' in 1972 to discuss his newly released book, 'Homosexual: Oppression and Liberation.'
This episode of Monday Conference aired on 2 July 1972.
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I'm amazed at the civility of this discussion when measured by 2019 standards.
Exactly this is how you have a debate on social and political issues. Today people debating act like children, if they even are allowed to debate.
This isnt that civil. The guy on the left lies about what the gay man writes in his book and tells him that he is attacking the family and society and the other guy says that it is scientific to say that homosexuality is disordered sexuality. The host tries to make the association between homosexuality and militance.
It was awfully manipulative
It's simultaneously civil and brutal, reflecting the mores of its time.
Michael Lubin , I love your comment.
And he even believed in homosexual women as well- this man wins
Was that a radical idea? I genuinely had no idea
@@aross-hb6jl it's seen as generally less abhorrent and often less real cause many women were taught to marry a man is their life goal, think that left them unable to explore and less believed, it's related to 'comp het' which you can look up if you want (im bad at explaining haha) which a lot of gay and bi women still experience
@@natvelo You did just fine
Homosexuals always want to forcefully ,-force people to like and accept them , however they themselves don't seem to accept that many people simply don't like their lifestyle,- I mean you cant force someone to like what you do .
@@tonyvillani4614 You don't have to like it. Just don't harass people for being gay and mind your business
Damn this guy is sooo ahead of his time... he’s able to answer every question perfectly
He's brilliant and brave.
Exactly
Yep can you imagine him telling them he thinks some priests will also be gay by 2000’s they’d probably kick him off the show, he was way way way ahead of his time the rest of them lived in the time but he was a visionary and understood everything perfectly and explained it perfectly and calmly as well much respect to him!
speaking on things which he knows very little about extremely elegantly
Respect to Dennis ...ahead of his time indeed!
@Potatoe Spud Why is homosexuality a perversion? Based upon a god that cannot be proven to exist?
in terms of stupidity and outright ignorance you mean
Ahead of his time bahahhaa dont make me laugh
the joker haha this was the 1970s... he was very far ahead...
@@EclecticallyEccentric 😒😏
One thing always puzzles me with any debate about homosexuality is the anger it generates. I’m heterosexual yet don’t see myself as any different or more belonging than anyone else. What do some people fear.
Spencer Hughes themselves sometimes. And God
There afraid there kid is gonna have the big gay
@Fluffynator I stay up nights, in cold sweat, thinking about it.
They don't. That's just your self-talk, designed to bolster your self-perceived moral superiority. It has nothing to do with fear, actually. It's simply dislike of what is regarded as a dissolute and dysfunctional life. If anything, it's sorrow and pain. Good people, wanting better for their fellows. You can dispute that thinking all you like, but it still won't be "fear".
They fear knowledge I think. I have yet to come across a valid argument against homosexuality.
this man is one of the reasons I’m allowed to hold my girlfriend’s hand in public without shame. His ideas helped shape the views of generations to come, and I’m so grateful to be in a time and place where my existence is accepted. Still, it continues that this isn’t the case in many places of our world, and it’s all a work in progress.....
Laurie Amber You're very fortunate. Not everyone is able to do that even now. Violence and verbal abuse against the LGBTI community is still rife.
@@andrewthornhill7042 Or even just within it.
Oh the shame
They_Call_Me_ Pebbles Gay women get hate too. My parents aren’t supportive at all, they think it’s some freakish thing that I’ll eventually grow out of - not actual love. They don’t abuse me, but hate continues to persist.
@@laurenjohnson5941 I feel bad for your parents.
This man thought for what he knew was right nearly 50 years ago, despite all the hostility and social ostracization he knew would face because of it. And yet even now, with all the benefits of hind sight, we still have so many hateful bigots and small-minded homophobes on the wrong side of history.
Ain't no Slice is entitled to her/his own opinion. There's nothing new under the sun.
@@-WondersofCreation when his/her "opinion" involves the oppression and dehumanisation of other people and a denial of their very rights to exist, then it goes well beyond 'entitlement'. That's something the right needs to learn: decent people are not going to be tolerant of their intolerance.
@@aintnoslice3422Utopia with decent people comment.
Shut up your moutth
Little arrogant to say someone is on the wrong side of history when you have no hindsight to judge that
This man was/is very courageous. 👍✌️
Why? You are courageous if you wrote that book in saudi arabia.
@@slugakristov8343 No, you are courageous if you write a book of that kind in 1972, a time in which the acceptance of homossexuality in the western world wasn't as big as it is nowadays.
@@farkrits no...you are brave when you live in middle east as christian and get killed for bieng loyal to Christ
@@slugakristov8343 Oooohhhh, you're one of those religious weirdos, I got you.
@@farkrits yes one of those...
I remember how in the late 90s how openly homophobic people were
I cant imagine how bad they would have been back then
Maybe in the seventies the only interaction with a homosexual was the one in the public toilet trying to molest them while they were a minor,and they carried that hate and embarrassment into adulthood to ward off any further advances .
@@darrencottam1146 Yeah, as if most people would have experienced that.
@@NuisanceMan and you know this how?
@@darrencottam1146 You're the one making a claim here.
I'm sure some people experienced that, but I don't think it would have been a majority
It is really fascinating the way they all handle the topic, to see the beliefs and values of the 70s and Altman is incredibly brave
He not once interrupted them, I can't say the same for the others however... it's disgraceful
Kiana The Avatar exactly
The level of civility in this interview is phenomenal by most modern standards regardless
Everyone here was very civil, nothing discraceful at all.
So..... Why are u geh?
Underrated
who says i am ghey??
@TheSphinx you are geh! Lesbiahn? Transgenda?
Years ahead of his times. Yes ABC....screen the whole thing.
I love how he provided so much information about his life before the interview started.
No much difference between that time and now. Same argument, same point, same approach. The times haven't changed much on a social level. I'm surprised he talked about things like gender roles and toxic masculinity, things we still talk about inconclusively till today. These progressive ideas are definitely old ideas promoted by freedom of speech.
And they're still the obnoxious bleatings of white, middle and upper class capitalist elites.
@@aureliusmarcus1817 "white middle and upper class capitalist elites". Your target is on the wrong head my friend. Who, in particular, are these "white" elites? I believe you may know it already, even if you're reluctant to accept it. The fact is that these "white" individuals sow disorganization among all races and classes, and serve to benefit themselves and their compatriots alone; many of them are repulsed by the idea of being called white, and certainly do not promote the interests of the common white individual.
@@aureliusmarcus1817 White people are by far the most accepting group in the world towards homosexuals, I don't know what you're on about. There is deep homophobia in many Asian, middle eastern, and African countries.
@@aureliusmarcus1817 wtf are you on about
@@koolaidjerk yeah
I love it when ppl can disagree and still have a conversation 😭😭
A debate without yelling and cussing?
Wow these guys did it right.
The internet can learn something about the art of conversation from these guys
I'm blown away. How we've strayed from this with the advent of the internet.
Imagine being this guy getting his info without the internet or a phone to type a question but he’s still can answer more questions then people nowadays. Love this clip!
Considering the interview was 48 years ago, he is rather articulate and ahead of his time It was a time when gay men had to navigate around a heterosexual framework so they could keep their jobs, secure their personal safety and to avoid being ostracized by society. It's interesting t0 see how the societal mindset evolved in just few decades
Now we are forced into a LGBT framework of society and kids are being groomed and changing their genders. Men are erasing women's rights and erasing what it means to be a woman. To me, the fears of conservatives came true. Our society overall is much less healthy than it was in the 1950's.
@@tubester4567 you view the world from a very narrow lens
and now people can get fired for being homophobic, which honestly… I don’t see that as a bad thing. In this case, it’s 100% their fault, that’s on them for choosing be hateful to others.
LOL, you thought we weren't articulate back then? Please don't confuse the way Trump talks now, after decades of frying his brain on coke and speed, with the way most people lived and spoke back then.
Wow this talk is so respectful on both sides. I wish people still treated eachother with this kind of respect while debating on television instead of always trying to prove their opinion is better no matter what side they were on.
I feel this is because these people were academics or knowledgeable in their topics. Nowadays they will just throw any lunacy at the screen that will get 7 seconds of ratings in their 24 hour news cycle. Back in the day when you decided to have a debate you sought out the proper people with the knowledge to have it.
Depends on what you're debating tbh. If someone genuinely believes your existence is wrong then why be nice? I mean you can, but don't expect it yk
@@chickenisindeedmystyle7316 well we used to have something called freedom and freedom of speech in western democracies. It was coupled with a belief that instead of the mass lunacy of the dark ages, tribal wars, and mass revolutions coupled and multiplying into two world wars and the eventual use of two atomic bombs that managed to annihilate 200,000 people in minutes, it might be better for people with the intelligence and history on topics to sit down and sensibly debate, hypothesize, discuss and sometimes even test ideas that will better societies.
For people like you these are arcane concepts now because you’ve grown up pampered like babies, you never killed an animal let alone a man or woman, and you certainly haven’t had to burry anyone, a family member or child because you thought it’s such a great idea to not be nice.
Do you know what happened in the 70s? Are you delusional?
@@SomePersonOnRUclips no I’m just not an old person
While it was amazing to see Dennis's point of view and how the things he said still hold up today, it was absolutely painful to watch how much he had to fight and how his words constantly got twisted by the interviewers. His ability to remain calm is remarkable.
His eyebrows talked along with him did you notice?
Would love to see the whole thing @ABC News (Australia)!
Hi Noah, this was from an era when live programs weren't routinely recorded and archived. We just happened to have a telerecording of this episode (which was essentially someone pointing a camera at a TV screen) - they must have run out of film as it cuts off abruptly and this is all we are left with. Thanks for watching!
@@abcnewsaustralia Appreciate the follow up and now I know what a telerecording is! As a young-ish first gen Australian, it's interesting to hear about Australias historical perception on important issues like LGBTQ rights and to measure how far (or not) we have come since that time. But more importantly, footage like this allows us to learn about the people who stood up to ignorance and fought for the rights of the underrepresented. Please continue posting things like this :)
@@abcnewsaustralia Really? A video camera with clear accompanying sound? In 1972?
@@markdp1983 Sound was probably enhanced / mastered by ABC before posting it here
Weird feeling I'm having, getting to my mind that I was 18 yo in 1972, struggling with my own sexuality, hiding it ! It went better, and better, but it was a long path ! Now and since quite a while I'm fine ;-) !
Happy fro you! Glad you are now able to express yourself the way you are
Thank you Dennis ❤️ You made it possible for me to marry my boyfriend but as i’m single this is largely theoretical lol
No...this is more about civil debate than gays rubbishing and mocking constructive criticism. You want to be an angry gay an argue and punch people fine..then you're just a bad human being. But if you want to analyse and discuss humanitarian issues, then I'd warrant a debate
@@StoNe-ji6bc where is this coming from
@@StoNe-ji6bc Where is this coming from?
👍👍😅😅
StoNe220022 being gay is not an issue
This is the most proper and composed debate on a serious topic, that I have ever seen! Also the back and forth discussion is also being very open to each other’s statements.... we need more this come on 2020
LET'S GO DENNIS
what a good aussie legend
You're Welcome.
his comeback was amazing when they were trying to twist his words.
Thank goodness that this aspect of society has changed for the better.
@NEUTERLibs The only thing you said there that is actually a problem is transexual women competing in female categories in sports and winning because of their physical strength.
I dont see nothing wrong about a Drag Queen being in a children classroom or transgender people using the bathroom they feel comfortable in so they wont be harrased.
@NEUTERLibs How is being a drag a degenerate behavior, drag is an art, a priest would try to influence a certain religion to adoctrinate children, unless the school program would be that the children meet different people from different religions to talk about the history of them, that would be ok and interesting.
@@lucase9698 Indoctrinating children in religion is, personally, abuse of lack of developed skepticism and questioning. Drag is indeed an art, but it's not okay for drag to indoctrinate to children in the way it currently does by pushing other facets of what art is out of the scope of a child's education.
@@lucase9698 i dont really feel comfortable as a male to be in the bathroom with a female who says they are "special"
Anonymous player 2626 well then that’s your problem, trans people will often be harassed and harmed for using a different bathroom. You on the other hand won’t get publicly ashamed for using one so I don’t get why you’re uncomfortable. It has nothing to do with you. And another thing it’s a MALE not female. If they identify as such then that’s what they are.
Thank you for paving the road for us.
Because of people like you, we can live freely and be ourselves freely now.
Aids got him.
“I think that everyone is inherently bisexual”...no evidence for this cited, but if one were to accept that statement to be true then it certainly makes homosexuality less “threatening” (to use their term). In other words, it is a Trojan horse strategy.
Still, a very interesting and civil discussion. I wish our public discourse today was as civil.
Um, nope that is a pretty ridiculous statement.
It might be based on the Kinsey scale, developed by Alfred Kinsey, which is a spectrum first published in 1948, which postulates that sexuality falls between heterosexuality and homosexuality. People are given questionnaires and based on their responses they fall somewhere on the scale.
Well he did say “I think” not “I have evidence/proof.”
so true you can see the other two men disagree but they are still extremely respectful
Lmao! He was my lecturer at uni 🤣🤣🤣
omg mlm wlw solidarity, king behaviour
Bisexuals, Pansexuals, Asexuals and Aromantics ect:
*Allow us to introduce ourselves*
What’s aromantic
@@goro5328 It's when you don't feel romantic attraction towards any gender.
@@nicodas then what's the difference between aromatics and asexuals?
Please tell me.
@@-PH-Meenakshiiyer
I'm asexual but not aromantic.
I have no sexual attraction at all but still have romantic attraction.
Aromantic people are commonly aro-ace but not always, aro-ace would be having no romantic or sexual attraction and purely aro would be still has sexual attraction but no romantic attraction.
A lot of aro people choose to stay single or pursue QPRs, which stands for queer platonic relationship, the details of which depend on the partners.
Ace people commonly have trouble dating non-asexuals because of different needs in relationships so choose to only date other ace peeps which sucks because we are a while 1% of the population.
Gray asexuals/aromantics who only have a little attraction exist and so do demis who can develop those attractions but only after making very close connections.
"A great debate about whether this is a scientific view or a rationalisation of existing social prejudices." Reactionaries in a nutshell
Does someone have a link to the full discussion? I suddenly want to watch the rest of this
Where can i see this whole interview?
it's interesting seeing the perspective of the situation at this current time.
when the audio file of footage from the 70s has a clearer quality than your 2020 recordings...
So thankful to these brave LGBTQIA activists and writers who fought this kind of prejudices with grace.
It's fascinating - looking at the historic roots of current social trends.
Altman was indeed brave here. But it does not mean he's "on the right side of history". This clip just shows how malleable human social norms are over long-ish periods of time.
Release the whole debate!
Thanks for sharing this.
Woww, this was the time when Methodist minister still being invited to talk about morality on TV.
Altman is way ahead of his time and definitely has clarity in thinking. Also, the way the debate is proceeding is so civil compared to our aggressive debates now.
Anyone know where to find the full episode. Amazing footage!
Why am I not surprised by the 'early life' section on wikipedia?
I think his point is that sexual disfunctions come in many colours.
When he was taking about psychology did he say 'Bever' or 'Weber', because I know Weber is a quite prominent sociologist, but I wasn't familiar if he was within the field of psychology or of any other psychologist called Bever
They were talking about the American psychiatrist Dr Bieber, whose psychoanalytic theories about homosexuality being an illness were widely discredited even by the early 1970s. He promoted conversion therapy. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Bieber
He's referring to American psychoanalyst Irving Bieber
@@abcnewsaustralia thxs. Haven't heard of that guy although my extent of psychological knowledge dosent extend much beyond Sigmund 'incest is wincest' Freud
This man is one of the things we all must aspire to be, fighting for the truth and going against the tide just to make everyone's future a better place
Slippy, In some places it is. And I think the original comment was also not just referring to gay rights.
@sonoki82 yeah? How so?
Thank you so much for your bravery and resolve Dennis Altman.
A "rationalisation of existing social prejudices." Wow, I'm going to chew on that for a bit. Smart, brave man.
hats off... very intellectual. wish we cd see him on utube 2day. most probably still alive👏
6:30 Lol not quite fair 😂😂😂
The way he announced the title: "Tonight - the Homosexual and Society" - made me think of a Monty Python sketch, the one about the "mice men".
Totally and factually more relevant today than ever before.
We’ve come a long way thanks to courageous people like this guy.
What a handsome man Dennis is. Love this civilized debate. Dennis really does hold his own.
Now that's a debate! Altman's eloquence is a delight.
Is this interview copyright free?
Wow, Altman was such a brave man. Ahead of his time.
I wasn't done with that video i need to see more
Much respect to Dennis Altman...
Not to take away from Dennis Altman or the others, but wow was it refreshing listening to Robert Moore conducting that interview in such a calm and professional manner. Why must it so rare to find that sort of thing these days. I would pay good money to watch a news organization if they handled things this way, these days the only way to find this is by finding podcasts, and those are extremely hit or miss regarding their factual accuracy...
me personally...I've always had difficulty with sexuality in relation to identity. has never gotten easier over time too.
this video seems way too short
I’m just here cuz I got nothing to do in quarantine also why this guy basically give Dennis whole biography while introducing him
Where's the rest of the interview, gayBC? Pretty sure it didn't end where you decided to cut it
Such an intelligent brilliant man
Outstanding human being, I had no idea. A new hero to my list.
This guy wasn’t so much ahead of his time, gay people have been saying these things since forever they just weren’t listened to or given a platform. This isn’t mean to discredit him, I just find it funny that there’s so many people surprised that there were people thinking like this “back then” already. Like yeah, gay people didn’t only get woke about their oppression in the past 10 years, it’s the rest of society that’s only recently started to catch up to that level of progressive thinking
Anyways, absolute king for calling out the all male panel and pointing out that gay men take much more space in the discourse
1972 When homosexuality was still a crime on our statute books here in Victoria.
Things never change...
Dennis Altman , what an amazing man! God bless you wherever you are .
You're Welcome.
What a brave, intelligent, articulate and thoughtful man. Amazing to hear him speak like this nearly 50 years ago. I'm sure his writing and thinking must have had a huge influence in changing things for the better for gay people.
It is the norm in today's society. Dennis would be proud.
if this interview happened in 2020 it wouldnt have been that civil
those two men sitting at the other side of the room disgust me thinking they know anything about lgbt
Brave man and well spoken
50 years ahead
at least people disagree politely back then. These guys are way off the conservative scale by today standards, but they're far more polite than our online or talking head quibbles.
Dennis ALTman
Massive respect
Sad, this was Elton John's decade
I hope he saw this interview
Allowing to respond in a respectful manner while having a constructive conversation/debate on both sides. You would think that with the amount of progression we have made in regards to society and our understandings of it, we could still accomplish the seemingly magnificent feat. Unfortunately in most cases, this is incorrect.
Pity discussions about subjects like this aren't presented the same way as it is here. No raised voices, the other listening to the others' point and not interrupting. Shame that's all disappeared and it's now like what Q&A is like.
ABC Debates from 1972 >>>>>>>>>>CNN Debates from 2021
This straight up isn't fair. They pitted one gay activist against two conservatives. I can't help but feel like this was set up against him. Feels intentional.
That being said, he still kicked both of their asses even if they kept interrupting him.
Exactly, his logic and articulate speech trumped the other two. Amazing how well he can convey concepts which seemed alien to others, mad respect for Dennis!
What is so sad about this...this could be a debate taking place now! The true fiction of our existence is of a unified world! Unfortunately, as this almost 50-year video depicts, we will never have unity, eliminate bigotry, because we'll never have consensus.
Until we can come together as a human race, and stop thinking of ourselves in separate terms, with borders and boundaries. Until we can listen to each other, and try to understand the different points of view, to try and reasonably consider another person's opinions, and have the same courtesy done for us. To borrow a term from Star Trek of all things ....IDIC, Infinite diversity in infinite combinations!
As I said Unity on Earth is pure fiction, the same arguments from 150 years ago still persist today, racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. Sorry for the downer, but I call it as I see it.!
Holy crap that was so good! I want to hear the whole thing, everything this guy said was spot on and to be so in the public eye advocating for both gay men and women in Australia was so brave...and needed.
I grew up in Tasmania, was in highschool in the 90s, the first protest I ever went to was when I was 15 and it was the fight to legalise sodomy which was still illegal, tasmania was the last state in Australia to still have these laws, it was finally overturned in 1997. It still seems insane that when I was in highschool it was illegal to be gay. I still remember listening to Rodney croome talk that day and it was thanks to him and his partner who took these laws on in the court that they were finally over turned.
very good
This guy is 28......28!
Dennis Altman is brilliant, anticipating by decades where many of us LGBT folk would eventually arrive.
This is amazing. Absolutely amazing.
Why couldn’t everyone just think like Dennis 🙄 it 2020, we should support everyone’s race’s and sexuality 💕
So these people actually questioning and invalidating someones sexuality on tv wow.
He is AWESOME!!
My god, amazing man. Held his own, so so ahead of his years it’s unreal.
If it weren’t for people like Dennis Altman, I doubt many of the freedoms we as LGBTIQ+ people take for granted today would exist... I can now marry my partner because of men like Dennis. Thank you, Mr Altman, from the bottom of my heart!
*"The homosexual and society"* Like they weren't part of that society themselves. -_-
Homosexuals always want to forcefully ,-force people to like and accept them , however they themselves don't seem to accept that many people simply don't like their lifestyle,- I mean you cant force someone to like what you do .