The Most Controversial Strategy in Tomb Raider Speedrunning

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  • Опубликовано: 16 дек 2024

Комментарии • 87

  • @GraHaz
    @GraHaz Год назад +11

    it's very hard to accept Lara teleporting vertically through a solid wall in a way entirely inconsistent with the TR world as anything but a glitch.
    I understand the community makes it's own rules and I admit I'm an outsider and a layman, but as such I probably have less bias regarding the issue than most people involved in it.
    Pretty amazing video regardless of that, incredibly informative.

    • @Eycore
      @Eycore  Год назад +1

      thank you!

    • @KasumiRINA
      @KasumiRINA 8 месяцев назад +1

      The original jump could be debated as barely fitting in (tons of jumps where there's a just frame where she lands on feet), but the fact it works on higher ledge proves it's a glitch of the same variety as going through corners to her house roof or through the water as shown at the start.

  • @laraandlauracroft5748
    @laraandlauracroft5748 Год назад +34

    This was really interesting, I'm not largely familiar with the speedrunning side of Tomb Raider despite having speedran some games in private myself and enjoying watching them, great video/essay!

    • @Lil-p5s
      @Lil-p5s Год назад +4

      Honestly, I'm kind of new to speed running Tomb Raider and i learn something b new everyday! I keep speed running to myself because i ain't very speedy 😂

  • @EpicRivers1
    @EpicRivers1 Год назад +7

    If they make a category called glitchless, it should actually be glitchless. I am not a speed runner, but it makes it confusing for the rest of us. Glitchless should be just that, then maybe have tiers that allow certain odd movements aside from that.

    • @Eycore
      @Eycore  Год назад

      The category already has very few runners so having more tiers is going to fragment the runners and competition. In my opinion it's best to keep it simple

    • @Buglin_Burger7878
      @Buglin_Burger7878 Год назад +3

      @@Eycore But it isn't simple, there is disagreements when you present it to the public. That is a major issue that undermines the entire thing.
      You shouldn't present something as glitchless, when in many people's opinion it isn't.

    • @Eycore
      @Eycore  Год назад

      @@Buglin_Burger7878 There are disagreements for those that voice their opinion in the comments. I don't know where you get the idea that it is "many people's opinion it isn't"

  • @KasumiRINA
    @KasumiRINA 8 месяцев назад +1

    Showcase of the "glitchless": 15:02
    I assume the word "glitchless" is used ironically for this glitch, right... RIGHT?! She's sliding through walls, teleporting all over the place, and spazzing in a seizure. This video part should be framed in dictionary definition of a glitch.

  • @AtlasRaider
    @AtlasRaider Год назад +7

    Don't forget to mention the possible assault course (TR2) glitch when you are at the top of the ladder before to end the run.
    Great work as usual!

  • @cftvdata
    @cftvdata Год назад +10

    I've been watching TR speedruns since 2019 or so, and had no idea why you guys called it the glitchless glitch, so this has been quite enlightening!

  • @DarkMoe
    @DarkMoe Год назад +7

    video was very informative. But still I'm part of the public who likes to see a true glitchless run of these classic games. All of these tricks belong to glitched runs, and they are cool indeed. We need someone to create true glitchless runs, I''m ok with skips like the London one where you jump on the roofs and to the exit, but opening and closing the inventory 20 times and jump to the exit in the TR2 oil rig level where the water is glitched, not ok

    • @armorvil
      @armorvil 9 месяцев назад +3

      Exactly, we need a TR speedrun category called "dev-intended routing" or "normal routing" or something, that would rule-out all these things and even the skips you're talking about. Forget all these plays on vocabulary regarding bugs, glitches, skips, exploits, ... Things are actually rather simple for people with a good head on their shoulders : did the devs expect the players to do that to progress or not? The former needs its own category but I'm probably making a bit too much sense. The speedrunning community is ridiculous sometimes with their play on words and ardent desire to bend the rules / cheat to gain a few seconds.

    • @KasumiRINA
      @KasumiRINA 8 месяцев назад

      The inventory pause thing is the reason 007 World is Not Enough isn't speedran much even though it's a very similar game to GoldenEye, you can effectively go through ALL of game with pausing and unpausing and get minimal time but it's painful to watch and plainly, just stupid. SO to make it enjoyable there should be house rules set on things that are allowed or not and they are done per-game basis, in TR2, inventory is only used to line up some jumps precisely, it's not a glitch in either way but just... well... similar to TAS. It allows you to make jumps otherwise humanly not consistently possible, so it's closer to tool-assisted speedrun stuff.

    • @KasumiRINA
      @KasumiRINA 8 месяцев назад

      @@armorvil Dev-intended route can be a separate record but non-glitched skips are what makes the game more fun. Also how do you KNOW which exact route devs intended when there are three ways to do starting jump in Great Wall or across the gap in Tibet or ? London skip is obviously unintended, but stuff like avoiding extra backtracking or lever pull by jumping through window using intended game mechanics? Entirety of Venice is more fun because of skips you can do without glitches.

  • @marcusfossa6695
    @marcusfossa6695 Год назад +1

    This is why these games are classics. 20 years later and they are still discovering things.

  • @Lagbeard
    @Lagbeard Год назад +2

    In the context of speedrunning, I would say a glitch would be any unintended behavior of the game that can be used in a beneficial manner.

    • @KasumiRINA
      @KasumiRINA 8 месяцев назад

      Nah, many shortcuts are unintended, i.e. in Bartoli's Hideout Lara can skip lowering the lanterns if she makes a jump with grab to a key. There's no glitching involved but it's not the intended route. The snowmobile level in Tibet has multiple paths across the water, there is an intended one through tunnels, but you can just jump across if you position yourself right, no glitches involved, just a difficult jump using intended mechanics but not intended order... that said it's very obvious what in TR are glitches, teleporting to the top of anything definitely is.

  • @petaludas88
    @petaludas88 Год назад +2

    you are all beasts ..although iam a casual gamer in this community the last 5 years , i enjoy watching all these discoveries in speedrunning

  • @forasago
    @forasago Год назад +8

    6:00 This part gets to the root of the confusion. The category is a misnomer. Based on the examples you presented the category has not been "glitchless" in many years. Like in many other speedruns the community decides which glitches are major (illegal) and which are minor and then arbitrarily allows the minor ones they enjoy. And there is nothing wrong with this, if the category is named accordingly. Glitches ARE being used and the majority seems in favor of keeping it that way, so the category name should be changed into something like "NMG - No Major Glitches" for example. As is, the debate is just silly. Collectively pretending like a glitch isn't a glitch because it improves the run for everybody? What a waste of energy!
    In all honesty rolling off the edge of a slope IS a glitch. Flare canceling IS a glitch. And the recovery roll IS OBVIOUSLY a glitch as well. The developers did not intend to give Lara these abilities, under any circumstance. Likely no developer ever performed a single roll recovery, flare cancel or canceling slope behavior by rolling. So the "exploit" argument like with isolated missing death tiles or invisible geometry does not apply to these maneuvers. These moves are not "features", therefore they are glitches. And if you like them, keep using them. Just be honest about it.

    • @Eycore
      @Eycore  Год назад +3

      I disagree that the 'glichless' category is a misnomer. When I think of No Major Glitches, I think of no QWOP, no void travelling, no item dupe and so on. Basically obvious glitches that completely change the way the game is played. Flare cancelling is a glitch yes but it is so minor in comparison that it doesn't warrant a category change. I could say no developer either did a fake grab to get to a lower platform, or do a swing cancel or a grab cancel. Are these unintended moves glitches too? How do we know what the developers intended? Based on what, how the developers played their game back in the day? The honesty comes from the community coming together, sharing their opinions and then deciding. Thanks for sharing your opinion :)

    • @Buglin_Burger7878
      @Buglin_Burger7878 Год назад +2

      @@Eycore You say it comes from the community coming together and sharing their opinions, the community of Speedrunners. This is fine when it exists purely in that small community.
      But what about our shared community, the very people you present glitchless to and get mocked for?
      We've seen in history time and time again that if you limit the opinions to only those of a small group you get echo chambers that don't take into account how others feel. Twitter is a hellscape because it forces just this often showing only the worst of opposing beliefs.
      People would be more receptive if it wasn't forced onto them that it is glitchless, rather the speedrunning community asks them "Should we count this as glitchless? Do you agree with our reasoning?"
      That speedrunners reach out, not only in. To not call people who disagree as an opinion, when you hold your own thing as the proper fact. You needed to present it more in video as an opinion to even argue this in good faith.

    • @Eycore
      @Eycore  Год назад

      ​@@Buglin_Burger7878 Those that speedrun the glitchless category will carry more weight to their opinions because they are running the category. You are welcome to learn the run and share what you think should be changed.

  • @Potkanka
    @Potkanka Год назад

    This is so cool, really edited like a documentary and so fun to watch! I've watched some glitched speedruns here and there but I don't have detailed knowledge of the glitches (or, perhaps more importantly, how to perform most of them) so this was really enlightening :)

  • @kapil4417037
    @kapil4417037 Год назад +1

    Once in tomb raider 3, in crash site level, while fighting with T-rex, I left fighting without killing T-rex. When I returned, T-rex was flyimg up in a hole.

  • @Planetdune
    @Planetdune Год назад +3

    Recovery roll, the subject of this video and the flare ignore fall damage are ALL glitches in my book. None of this is intended by the developers and lara clearly does not have the animations to back it up. They call it glitchless and all they do is glitch all over and because their club of friends, who make the rules say "it is all good", it is all good... doesn't make it true glitchless.

    • @Eycore
      @Eycore  Год назад +1

      Flare cancelling doesn't ignore fall damage, it cancels the stumble animation. Thanks for sharing your opinion

    • @KasumiRINA
      @KasumiRINA 8 месяцев назад

      Animation canceling isn't intended but always used in speedruns of all games, it's just regular speed optimization. Teleporting vertically up is a glitch tho.

  • @SanCici71
    @SanCici71 Год назад +1

    Dear Eycore. This is wonderful. Have used your tutorials many times. Having so much fun figuring out and when I get it WOW! Enjoyed watching this video ❤

  • @raff6108
    @raff6108 10 месяцев назад

    Brilliant commentary and fantastic footage! Awesome!

  • @templeofhorus4895
    @templeofhorus4895 Год назад +7

    This documentary videos are satisfying to watch. Edit, scenes, music are top notch. It's wonderful to remember these moments after so many years. I'm glad you're documenting these bugs/glitches/routes in this fanstatic videos since I forgot many things after a few years of not playing Tomb Raider. It would be amazing to have list of all bugs/glitches in classic Tomb Raiders and compare the differences between individual each game + ways to use them/alternatives. Also, in TR4/TR5 GG can look like this: ruclips.net/video/PzlOOUwa1Hs/видео.html
    Good job Eycore, I am so proud of you!💖

  • @AlexNona80
    @AlexNona80 Год назад +1

    11:55 thats music from Chrono Trigger not TR

  • @Kiko1234567890123456
    @Kiko1234567890123456 Год назад +1

    Love your documentaries- theyre always done so well and are very interesting. Great work

  • @espeonfreak
    @espeonfreak Год назад +2

    Really informative video Eycore! Loving these little TR history tidbits!

  • @stephanielove2847
    @stephanielove2847 28 дней назад

    From the outside, (I follow SOME speedrunning and am a TR fan, combining these 2 interests because of the Remaster achievements) it looks like a take on the corner bug, so for me, id have it follow the same guidelines you do as a community for that. That being said, youre kinda the goat arent you? Like, I watched the QWOP vid and youre out here pioneering this tech so, youre kinda a big deal. Thanks for the vid you legend!

    • @Eycore
      @Eycore  28 дней назад

      thanks for watching legend!

  • @jacksoncarvalho9846
    @jacksoncarvalho9846 Год назад +1

    i have problems to glich the tomb raider 1 its hard to find any angle

  • @GMSryBut
    @GMSryBut Год назад

    16:24
    Funny enough, in TailsGaming's (Marko) Chat, the user "MelikaDuestermaerchen" said: "Ich halte bei Marko nichts für ausgeschlossen" which roughly translates too: "I don't think anything is out of the question with Marko".
    Which is funny in this context

  • @RollinHard843
    @RollinHard843 Год назад +1

    The qwop video has a sequel, this was great to watch, thanks for making this video ❤

    • @Eycore
      @Eycore  Год назад +1

      It has been a while hasn't it :D thank you!

  • @txr4262
    @txr4262 Год назад

    Really good documentary and very interesting. Thanks for taking the time!

  • @timmierunezz670
    @timmierunezz670 Год назад

    Fantastic vid, loved the lore behind the glitchless glitch!

  • @lenbielars4957
    @lenbielars4957 Год назад

    Vey interesting. How is this swimming to the unreachable medipack done at 11:32?

    • @Eycore
      @Eycore  Год назад

      i used the flycheat patch

  • @mammoh
    @mammoh Год назад

    Happy to hear Ori ost. An ultimate choice

  • @Planetdune
    @Planetdune Год назад

    How can that "ladder not working" to the unreachable medipack be such a problem? That the dev comes out and says "we spotted that late in development and by that time it was too late to do anything about it ". I mean, all that was required was to either swap the ladder texture with the regular wall texture or, if all else fails, delete the medipack. (or do both) Surely that is less than an hour of work...

    • @Eycore
      @Eycore  Год назад +1

      They were already pressed with time so I imagine they prioritized more important areas in the games development, or it was simply too late and the game was already prepared to get shipped.

    • @KasumiRINA
      @KasumiRINA 8 месяцев назад

      That's a bug, ladder is working in Remaster. It shouldn't have been deleted but fixed, since it's obviously an intended bonus pickup slightly to the side of the critical path. TR1 unreachable medpack is another thing, it does NOT have intended way to get it, and is fully kept there for glitching through.

  • @tom_bow_
    @tom_bow_ Год назад +2

    impressive video, but it definitely wasn't glitchless.... :D

  • @apel_runner
    @apel_runner Год назад +5

    This apel dude left the mouse pointer on his videos smh

    • @Lil-p5s
      @Lil-p5s Год назад

      Ugh yeah... The Apel guy 🙄 so unprofessional 😒😘

    • @RandalfElVikingo
      @RandalfElVikingo Год назад +1

      Like a man.

  • @NoObstacle
    @NoObstacle 7 месяцев назад

    This doesn't show the hundreds of failed attempts, think I would die from frustration!

  • @jcage1022
    @jcage1022 Год назад

    This right here is honestly what I'm most curious about when it comes to the recently announced remasters. Will the controls and design be so faithful that all of this is still achievable, or will Aspyr and CD try to get rid of these glitches in favor of something else? I hope they're all left in the remasters so badly, because at this point in the franchise, they're as iconic as the classic games themselves.

    • @KasumiRINA
      @KasumiRINA 8 месяцев назад

      It seems apart from one or two pickups swapped around in TR1, and TR2 medpack ladder fixed everything is as it was, the only major bug fixed was final secret in first game is now counted.

  • @xaviercostar6554
    @xaviercostar6554 Год назад

    14:40 Temple of Horus :) :) maybe Xian ? hahaha

  • @LED_Lightbulb
    @LED_Lightbulb Год назад

    This is an interesting glitch! Though of course people have to know about the specific spots and such for speedruns, imo it does look like a glitch you *could* potentially trigger accidentally due to how these games play. Understandable it was deemed a glitch for older speedruns but I do enjoy seeing what glitches the community will agree or disagree on their legality In "glitchless" runs.
    Edit: actually watched the rest of the video XD the tomb raider 3 glitch I'd definitely call a glitch especially compared to the first glitch shown in this video!

  • @chloelysette4850
    @chloelysette4850 9 месяцев назад

    Fantastic video!

    • @Eycore
      @Eycore  9 месяцев назад

      thanks!

  • @matafuko
    @matafuko 8 месяцев назад

    I would have thought the spirit of a "glitchless run" would be to see how fast you can play the game as intended. If you're exploiting mistakes like the non-lethal water or foibles with the controls and hit detection - you might as well use glitches as well. If that makes sense.

    • @Eycore
      @Eycore  8 месяцев назад

      Developers also made a mistake in colosseum where you can do a simple curve jump to skip most of the level. Same in the opera house.

    • @matafuko
      @matafuko 8 месяцев назад +1

      @@Eycore I meant more as in technical mistakes with how the game is meant to behave; I wouldn't consider the discovery of a faster route through the level as part of that category (like the skippable switch in Living Quarters where you can just jump up to the ledge). I appreciate there's ambiguity here - I'm not trying to have a go at you.

    • @Eycore
      @Eycore  8 месяцев назад +2

      @@matafuko I understand ^^ I've seen so many comments argue about following what is intended by the developer. The focus should instead be on what Lara can do with her natural set of movement and how that interacts within the game.

    • @KasumiRINA
      @KasumiRINA 8 месяцев назад +1

      @@Eycore Agree, you don't even know what was intended by devs when levels have multiple paths. Like even at Great Wall start, which of three jumps is intended, through the water, across the stones, or from the slide? And in River Ganges there's multiple paths...
      Bartoli's hideout is such a mess I DON'T KNOW what order was intended, since I was a kid I couldn't figure out what the block does and just grabbed the ladder from below, was that intended? Skipping lowering chandeliers wasn't, but it's just one slightly tougher jump. No glitches here.
      finding a shortest route possible without glitches is something I personally want to see, as glitches let you skip most of the game in some extra ways. Might as well just use flight mode in Remaster. I just move her in photo mode instead of corner glitching now with Any Outfit Any Level Mod)))

  • @vasaneff2253
    @vasaneff2253 Год назад

    Very cooool!!!
    In new tomb engine (TEN) all this can't be done. even the corner bug doesn't work.

  • @DoubleOhSilver
    @DoubleOhSilver Год назад

    Chrono Trigger music made this 100x better

    • @Eycore
      @Eycore  Год назад +1

      i love the soundtrack in that game ^^

  • @AidenDalbii
    @AidenDalbii Год назад

    Thank you for making these

  • @Lil-p5s
    @Lil-p5s Год назад

    I really interesting video! Thanks for sharing Eycore ❤ also, have you stopped uploading TRLE's? I really enjoy them 🙂

    • @Eycore
      @Eycore  Год назад +2

      I'm in the sabatu waiting room :P

  • @xemuth1643
    @xemuth1643 Год назад +1

    thanks Eycore !

  • @pedropinto8496
    @pedropinto8496 10 месяцев назад

    amazing video !

    • @Eycore
      @Eycore  10 месяцев назад

      thank you!

  • @gypruzzcaccamo6586
    @gypruzzcaccamo6586 9 месяцев назад +2

    Yeah. Glitchless means GLITCHLESS. All of those are glitches, no excuses.

  • @itsbrn2163
    @itsbrn2163 Год назад

    video was very informative

  • @RicardoDelJuego
    @RicardoDelJuego Год назад

    Here was me thinking it was Tibet skip

  • @mhh3
    @mhh3 Год назад

    i love videos like this

  • @greydeleon5730
    @greydeleon5730 Год назад +1

    give this man an oscar

  • @The-R-System
    @The-R-System Год назад +5

    there should only be one kind of speedrun and that is glitchless

    • @burtie80
      @burtie80 Год назад +3

      Yeah I agree, all this debate over what a glitch is or isn't yet runners using glitches but get annoyed when others use better glitches is just silly. If you going to speed run do it with all glitches or without any glitches at all.

    • @Buglin_Burger7878
      @Buglin_Burger7878 Год назад

      This seems fine, till you get some crazy glitches that let you beat the game in 5 minutes.
      They want to play the game to a degree that shows off skill and isn't easy to replicate, a way that shows the competition has meaning. Unfortunately this leads to semantics and introducing things in a way that makes little sense to outsiders which would be a non-issue if it stayed in the community.

  • @jaymxu
    @jaymxu Год назад

    What many people don't understand is that the Tomb Raider Speedrun community has GLITCH-LESS, runs, which means soft glitches are allowed. And NO-GLITCHES, which speaks for itself, it is free of glitches of any kind.
    Easy, soft or also no major glitches are mechanics that are being used as intended but happen to result in a glitch.
    Major glitches are any glitch used to skip time, or doesn't seem natural at all.
    It's quite simple and straightforward.

  • @MidnightMechanic
    @MidnightMechanic Год назад +1

    It's a grid exploit, not a glitch. Tomb Raider just worked like that, it was so easy to break since it's possible to get Lara between grid spaces. Even the developers knew, with random heath packs that require a corner clip-in to reach.

    • @KasumiRINA
      @KasumiRINA 8 месяцев назад

      That ONE medpack is a bug, she was not supposed to clip there, another has a non-working ladder and corner bug doesn't help avoiding it.