510-Pyro with semi-stand development explained
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 3 авг 2024
- Thanks everyone for subscribing!
In this video I demonstrate and discuss a full semi-stand development with 510-Pyro including:
- The semi-stand technique itself
- Water stop baths, how and why
- Alkaline fixing for the recommended length of time, no longer, and the easiest way of telling when to finish fixing
- Ilford wash technique
- How to stop most water marks on your negatives when dry
We then examine the negatives together to see why semi-stand development is so advantageous.
Thanks for watching this video and please 'like' and 'subscribe' to see more tricks and tips in the darkroom and other film loveliness..
John Finch
Pictorial Planet
Scotland
Well done, Mr. Finch! Seeing every step of the process explained in real time is a great service to newcomers, and your point about relaxing and enjoying the process is sage advice.
Your doing film photography a great service. Thanks.
Thanks!
Great video, thank you!! I love this semi-stand development with 510-pyro; I used this one only in standard diluition suggested at the time by Jay DeFehr.
Hello John, just to thank you an d say that I'm impressed with the results, absolute stunning. Cheers mate.😉❤
Thank you Rolando! Good news.
Thank you John. I had not heard of 510 until earlier this morning. I was doing a search for info on Pyrocat HD which led me to you. I will be adding this dev to my Pyro list to try in the future. Look forward to seeing some more content.
Absolutely, Steve, more to come on this channel.
Just prepared 510 - I will need to make several films to get familiar with. 1st went OK. Many thanks .
Excellent!
Superb John. Should also work beautifully with Dry Plates / tray dev ;)
You had me going there for a minute John, I had a feeling something wasn't quite right, then I spotted it. At the start of the video the image has been flipped so that you shirt fastens the wrong way and your wedding band(?) is on your right hand. Another great video.
Ha!
Pyro used to have a reputation for uneven development and fog. On top of this poor keeping qualities which means mix fresh for each session.
But it seems the new Pyro 510 formula is a breakthrough enabling the traditional frustrations and limitations of older pyro formulae to be resolved.
After years of regular tank agitation when using pyro in tanks, stand development seems counter intuitive.
But clearly it works and it works very well!
Thanks for another inspiring video!
You should look at PMK, WD2D, Pyrocat, and Dixactol too. All excellent modern pyro developers! It's come a long way since those days.
You just convinced me to make 510-Pyro. I am thoroughly enjoying your videos.
I'm very pleased you're enjoying the videos. 510 is the bees knees!
@@PictorialPlanet what I did realise js that my Ilford Rapid Fixer is not recommended. Now on the hunt for more raw chemicals, 👍
@@redtreephotography4197 Did you find the chemicals you needed?
@@PictorialPlanet yes I did. Already mixed although yet to use. But now I'm not sure if I should just mix some FX-55 or something else given your subsequent videos! ;-)
Ha! Go for it, I still use 510. It's more versatile at the end of the day and simpler to use.
Amazing stuff right there. Beautiful shots. Loving the semi stand development, it really feels better to not have to rush on the chems. Is there a chart or some way to calculate times for this Pyro and semi stand for different film stocks?
Again, thanks a lot for the info you put in here!
Hi Alvaro, thanks for the comment. Yes, semi-stand really keeps the ‘zen’ in developing. The 20 minutes will get you in the ballpark for many stocks and then just tweak to taste. Slower films will need slightly less, faster slightly more. Also, the iso should be about box speed with 510... this was FP4+ shot at iso 100. Love the comments, keep them coming.
Amazing…..snow is the most difficult to capture correct, great job on the metering of the photo and obviously on the developing….please a word on how you metered the grass/snow scene?
Frankly, I can't remember but with this development technique I suspect I measured the shadows and let the developer do the compensation. If you are photographing a snow scene, and using regular development, try placing the snow in zone 8. Thus is just right to get that white snow with just a touch of detail and nuance. Let the shadows fall where they fall. They are usually fine because the snow reflects light into them lifting them a tad.
Awesome! Well explained with all the details needed. Yet I was wondering what you use to keep the liquids at a consistent / constant temperature. Do you use some sort of temperature control system?
Cheers
If it's too cold in the room (or hot) I use a water bath but with stand development temperature isn't as crucial. Just try to keep it around 20C (or whatever your chosen temperature is).
Excellent presentation. Not usually a big fan of stand/semi-stand development, perhaps I should give it another go after seeing your outstanding results. How do you feel about a pre rinse? It’s something I have always done, whether it makes a difference I do not know, I just do it. Can it hurt?
Love the bagpipe background music!
Thanks.
Hi Doug! 510-Pyro and semi-stand really works well. If you pre-rinse there’s no problem. I don’t pre-rinse. This is usually recommended for more powerful dilutions where uneven development might take place or for temperature control, something I do if the darkroom is very cold when I start. I’ve found, with 510 at 1+200, and more, there’s no need (on the uneven development front) and the 1 minutes initial agitation seems to do a good job of saturating the emulsion evenly. I’ve never had a problem with this, Rodinal, or Pyrocat-hd, all with semi-stand or full stand. Thanks for your comments!
Brilliant video once again Mr. Finch. Would you consider showing us how you get those beautiful monochrome scans in your computer?
That's food for thought Chris. I'll add it to my list. Always wanting to hear from viewers what they might want. Cheers!
@@PictorialPlanet I’ll second that request. I have a hybrid workflow, shooting film but scanning and then printing via inkjet printer.
I have used Ilford Hypam rapid fix with pyro developers and I have not seen any reduction in the amount of stain. Most of the staining takes part during development and pyro hardens the surface of the negative. It is the amount of acid in the stop that reduces stain, you have avoided this by using water as a stop. If you wish to make up an alkaline fix try,
Sod. Thiosulphate 57-60% solution 800ml
Sod. Sulphite (anhy) 20g
Sod. Metaborate 15g
Water up to 1ltr.
Fotospeed may still do FX40 if you ask them nicely, they do not seem to distribute it to their agents. The last time I got some was from Morco Photographic.
C41 fix is also just about neutral ph.
T max films have a purple tinge this is a washing issue not fixing, use your fixing by inspection routine (tmax films do take a little longer than conventional films) wash the film then wash it for 2 mins in a solution of 1tsp sod. Sulphite in 1ltr of water, then wash again.
Thanks for your detailed comment, normusarms, and the formula for an alkaline fix. I’d like to pick up on your comment about TMax films and their purple tinge. I like that you explain it’s a washing issue and not a fix issue. I agree completely and using a hypoclear solution, like your sodium sulphite, for 2 minutes and wash again, is the way to remove most, if not all, the tinge. For other readers, one can also use sodium carbonate or sodium bicarbonate also - same dilution.
@@PictorialPlanet I have not tried this but I read on a forum that putting Tmax negatives in direct sunlight also clears the purple cast. Obviously uv light at work. To be honest I have not found the purple cast any hinderence to making prints. Just to satisfy your own curiosity it may be a good idea to cut a film in half and develop one half in alkaline fix and the other in Hypam and compare the stain. I enjoyed your video and your book, regards Peter Norman
Another great video...Question...I was watching your other video about making Pyrocat-HD...I just started working with it and like a lot...it's easy to get in the states but I might start making it since you did such a informative How to video...My question is can I use the Pyrocat HD in a semi stand development like you are dong with the 510? if so...the same way? Cheers...
Thanks for your kind words. For using Pyrocat as a semi-stand developer check out my website.
Useful, thanks , liked and subscribed , I vlog very badly , very different style . Surf is rather chaotic!
Btw can you re use pyro?
Thanks for your comment, Austen! I'm sure I'll enjoy your vlog! Once the pyro developer is diluted it's a one-shot because it quickly oxidises. I really appreciate you subscribing and I'll take a look at yours :)
Dear Mr. Finch, I have been using Ilford FP4 and 510 Pyro for a while now using the semi-stand development with great results. Today I shot a roll of Delta 100, used the exact same method, and the negatives were so under developed that I could barely see anything. Wondering if you have experienced this or any of your viewers. Thank in advance. Never miss your videos. You are a wealth of knowledge. Stay safe my friend.
Reply
Hi Jerry
You should have had decent negatives so I'd suspect something went wrong with the developer mix. Did the developer come out of the tank at the end the usual colour?
When you speak of "under developed"...did the negatives look "muddy"? Describe a little more... Were the negatives very thin (this indicates problem with the developer)? T-grain (tabular) emulsions (Delta and Kodak T-Max) - tend to have negatives that look flat and muddy, unlike classic cubic grain found in TriX. FP4+ HP5+. This is inherent in the grain. I also developed some Delta 100 and the negatives looked somewhat underwhelming, while with TriX the negatives looked stunning. In fact I developed both films one after the other. T-grain is designed to be processed and done right the positives come out very nice.
One more thing..what dilution did you use? if you use low dilution it is always good practice to increase your volume substantially (40% more), otherwise there is risk of developer being exhausted. It may be your developer was exhausted... I usually use the large two roll paterson tank for semi stand and put in between 600 to 700 ml developer fluid. In fact having more developer volume is always good practice even for normal development - developer is cheap, negatives are not.
Hi, Delta and Tmax films do not perform well with extreme dilute developers due to the high amount of restrainer in them.
Use 510 Pyro 1:100 and the Zone Imaging recommended respective timings for either the intermittent or semi stand agitation methods and you will find your results to come out perfectly
Brilliant video and I will certainly be carrying this out. Can I ask, what would the dev time / quantity of pyro be for 120 film?
Same dilution, just increased proportionately to 500ml (or 600ml if the math is easier). 120 film development times are the same as 135.
Great video John. I've made some Pyro 510 as per your book. Could you tell me if I can use the same method and time's with Delta 100 at box speed as per your video? or does development time change? Thank you.
Great book by the way 😊
Hi Kit! Thanks for your kind comments. This video should give you a good starting point.
An excellent video! Thank you. Looking at the 510Pyro data sheet, the time for 400TX is 8 minutes at 1:100. So I assume that if I used this method at 1:200, it would be 16 minutes. But does the agitation still happen at 10mins, or at halfway (8mins)?
Thanks for your comment. Because of the reduction in agitation it's not exactly double the time. I'd try 20 minutes and agitate at 10. It'll be trial and error for a couple of films until you get the negs you like.
Thank you John, very informative post, May I ask you if this way of developing is applicable with Fomapan 400? I mean semi stand development with 510 Pyro?
Thank you again.
Yes, very applicable. You will have to perfect the timing of course, to suit that particular film, but the concept is valid for any film.
Is the staining effect with 510 pyro protective enough of the highlights for you to not ned to run tests to ensure proper developing times? Perhaps its more a function of the stand development and water stop bath too thats allowing such a relaxed process? Great content as always btw and props for the website!
These tests should be carried out for any developer, even staining such as 510. However, if you use stand development it might be harder but semi-stand can be calibrated. If you use a water stop bath your calibration will take that into account but you must water stop the same way every time.
@@PictorialPlanet Thanks of the detailed reply. I use a few cameras and am looking at purchasing an older less expensive analogue meter to match with my development and also get more accurate incident readings. I've read that these can drift of over time and may not be 100% accurate and looked into calibration but then it occurred to me that once the meter, film speed and development are locked in for open shadows and good highlights the meter accuracy becomes irrelevant.. so long as its consistent. Am I on the right track?
Yes, you are spot on! The reason we use one meter for our lock-in is to negate any slight error our meter might be giving us. You will automatically be compensating for meter age. I recommend a spot/incident meter if you can get one as it will enable more accurate zone work.
@@PictorialPlanet Don't suppose you know how temperature and agitation affect the speed one might achieve with a particular film and developer combination? I always use 20C with 30 seconds slow inversions to star then 10 seconds on the minute...
Great video. Question: When using a wetting agent is it better to remove the film from the reels and not use the developing tank so as to avoid the reels clogging for future loading and not have residue frothing in the tank for next time? Thanks and regards.
Thanks Bernard. I leave my film on the reel when using wetting agent. I wash the reel and tank well after I’m finished and that, together with a clean with a toothbrush occasionally, has kept my reels running smoothly for donkey’s years.
Great video John. Why the PMK does't be used in stand/semi-stand as well? Thanks
Good question. PMK needs a lot of agitation because it's prone to uneven development. In fact it's one of the few developers that recommends agitation every 15 seconds (although I gave safely used 30 seconds). But why don't you try stand development with it Rolando?
@@PictorialPlanet Yes I 'll give it a try. Thank you
Thank you! What a nice video! John, I am still not 100 percent sure, but the developer in its 1 to 200 ratio, we can save it and use it over? And do we have to replenish it?
Hi Gary and thanks for your compliment. I'm hardly worthy but I'll take it! 510-Pyro is not a developer that's replenished and is used as one shot dilutions. This is a good question and makes me realise that I should be more specific in my descriptions. Thanks for that insight my friend.
Good video.... What does LFN stand for pls...
LFN is a trademark for an Ilfotol type wetting agent. It's my preferred wetting agent.
hello, thank you for these videos, a question, with which films the development with the 510 pyro works best? thank you
Good question and hard to answer. I haven't tried them all plus people have their own favourites. Mine is FP4 Plus.
6 months ago I ordered Pyrocat HD in liquid form. I’ve been hesitant to try it due to worries about safety. Every time I think I’ve got all the proper safety equipment for it, goggles, latex gloves, storage bottles, I read another forum piece which puts me on the edge. The latest being that I should use nitrile gloves, instead of latex, in order to prevent the chemicals from going through the latex. Could you give a brief overview on the necessary precautions one should take, and where to draw the line on. Using these various pyro developers? I’m probably overthinking this but on the off chance that I’m wrong… beautiful video!
I use nitrile gloves when using these developers - you want to keep them off your skin. I wear a mask and goggles only when making the developers from dry ingredients.
@@PictorialPlanet Thank you so much. I've read about the dangers of the powdered variants. I purchased the eye protection assuming that this was still something I wanted to keep away from my eyes, even in liquid form. I was literally about to skip the nitrile gloves until I read your response. Phew!
You mention on your website that diluting 510 pyro 1-200 and using a semi stand method to end at 25 mins at 20c, does this apply to most popular black and white films and in your opinion given good exposure, what results would we expect
This is a technique passed on to me by Jay DeFehr and has proved very good with my films FP4 and HP5. I expect it will work with many others too. You might need to fine tune your total time to get the contrast you like (I use a diffuser enlarger). Expect good acutance and microcontrast due to local developer exhaustion between agitations. I think Fred Picker would say "try it".
Hi, great video and I have started using zone labs 510 pryo and eco zonefix as my first and only developer. But I have a question I am reading contradictory evidence about how ecological it is. I understand because of the dilution you can dispose it down the sink but I wondered with your experience this is or isn't true. Do you think I would be better off with Bellinifoto Ecofilm? is ecofilm comparable? many thanks for the great videos
Mmmmm... definition of an eco developer. Well, I do pour mine down the sink and I have a sceptic tank. But to have an eco developer you would be looking at a vitamin-c developer like FX55 or Xtol (or one of its clones). That would be the safest bet.
thanks for that video. Do you not did a prewash?
No, I rarely pre-wash. PMK can cause uneven development without a pre-wash but most developers are ok without. Now, if I need to bring the developing tank up to temperature then I pre-wash.
Hey. You have an awesome series going on here. Have you heard about Sandy King's Pyrocat HD with Steve Sherman's method? I am very interested in this extreme low agitation technique.
Hi Zab! Check out later videos, especially Getting the best from PanF
@@PictorialPlanet I will, thank you.
Oh excellent! Somehow I did not notice that one. Great information, thank you.
Hi John thanks for your videos. Is pyro 510 as suitable for PanF plus as it is for FP4 as I know you like Pyrocat HD. I have used ilford Perceptol in the past and wondered your thoughts how it compares with pyro developers. Thanks
If you shoot with HP5 then use 510, they work really well together. If you shoot with PANF use Pyrocat, they are a great couple. I love Perceptol and used it for quite a while but staining developers are better. You should try pyrocat and PMK so you have experience of them too before deciding on which I gives you the look you want.
Great video. Even though I am quite experienced the fix hack (checking the clearing of the negative with open tank) was really interesting. Few questions: you do not recommend presoak - it is quite discussed topic. Is there any reason why not to presoak while developing with 510-pyro? Did you ever encounter bromide drag with semi-stand or stand development? I do sometime see it with Diafine. As mentioned in my comment to your previous video, I am trying to choose pyrocatechin (Obsidian Aqua) or pyrogallol (510-pyro) developer and stick with the one I choose. I will still use some other developers for specific reasons (Diafine with Tri-X pushed to 1250, or Double-X @ 640, Rodinal to have some grain when needed).
Hi Daniel and thanks for your comment. I don’t recommend a presoak as I’ve found it makes no noticeable difference. It’s sometimes mentioned as a way to stop uneven development with more concentrate (and therefore more intense) developers like PMK but with 510 there’s no need - this is my own experience. Bromide drag is a concern with stand/semi-stand development but a lot depends on how much the developing agent reacts (is slowed down) by the natural bromide by-products of reduction. Of the three developers I use for semi-stand, that is Rodinal (1+100 or 200), 510-Pyro (1:200 to 300), and Pyrocat-HD (2+2+500), I’ve seen no bromide drag. However, if one uses metol based developers for this technique they will find there’s much more of a problem with bromide drag (I wonder if diafine uses metol?). A good pyrocatechin developer, that will last as long as 510-pyro is Pyrocat-HD in glycol.
@@PictorialPlanet Hi John, thanks for your detailed answer! Re Diafine - I know that there is hydroquinone in sol A, but the full recipe is not officially disclosed (though there are unofficial formulas circulating on the net). I plan to make some side by side testing of 510-pyro and OA, I will shoot two rolls of 120 negative (same scene using two different camera backs) and will further test standard development with agitation once every minute and semi-stand development. Once again thanks!
Great Video John, what are times and dilutions for HP5 do you know?
Straight from my book, my preferred method is:
For FP4 and HP5. Mix 510-Pyro 1+200 with distilled water.
• Develop for a total of 25 minutes @ 20c.
• Agitate for the first minute, then 10 seconds every 7 minutes (that is on minutes 7, 13, and 20).
This was shared with me by Defehr.
Adjust your time for your taste.
Perfect, thank you John, I’ll give this a go this week with HP5!
Thanks John, followed your recipe for HP5 plus all went well !!
Excellent
Great Video Sir. Question, I live in Miami, Florida, USA. It is very hard to keep the water @20C. The water comes out of the faucet at about 24C. Could I decease time and use the water @ 24C? Your help is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jerry.
Hi Jerry. Sure you can, and as a starting place for development times reduce time by 5% to 10% per degree above 20C. Adjust to taste from there. Start with 5% with a test film to see if you like that first.
Thank you so much Sir. I will try that. I will let you know the results. Thanks again for your time , help, and videos. Stay safe. Jerry.
Other ways around here. Water comes out about 9-11°C. And once brought to 20°it cools rapidly to 17° room temp...😄
I just did HP5 @1-500 for an hour as per Martin Henson vid I just watched ! 5 min pre soak first min agitation 30 sec thereafter every 20 until finish. All water within a half degree of 20. Results don't look good. No scanned results yet still wet. I did this videos exact instructions last week with rodinol and got better results. Bizarre stuff. Second go thisaft!:-)
Shouldn't you be telling Martin?
@@PictorialPlanet you are right of course lol. But I've just done one based on your stand dev video and its not good either! Would say better but still not good. Am getting a strange pattern on the film! The two rolls I've done we shot on the same RB67 and the same back. Am going to dev a third roll today shot on a different camera same film as before HP5. Its either bad film as its out of date but refrigerated or its some thing else. It's a motteling effect bizarre.
Mottling is usually bad film in my experience. Sorry to hear that.
@@PictorialPlanet Right! Many thanks. I've noticed one or two frames are perfectly clear of it. BTW I am using Ilford Rappid Fix as from what I've seen online many are saying it works well enough! Got no idea where to get alkaline fix from.
@@PictorialPlanet Mr Finch you were correct we film!!! I ran son retro 400s through it. Came out perfect! Thanks :-)
What a great video! I guess you took the film out from the fixer at 20 seconds because it's a low ISO film. What fixing time would you recommend for example for Fomapan 400?
I looked at the film after 20 seconds to see if it had cleared and returned it to the fixer until twice the clearing time. All films are fully fixed after twice the clearing time.
@@PictorialPlanet does it mean you’re fixing twice longer than usually? Sorry I’m not a native speaker.
Is the development time in your video generally for black and white film as with Rodinal semi stand or was this specific for FP4? I tend to shoot HP5 and HP4. Thank you!
It's a good starting point for your HP5
Great video! Is there a principle that should be used within minutes or hours after diluting 510 Pyro in water?
Yes, it starts to deteriorate within a few minutes.The way I use it is to mix it, make sure it's at the correct temperature, and use it. It's all within five minutes.
@@PictorialPlanet Thank you for the information. 🙂
Thanks for this. I'll need to try 510Pyro again, I got something like "bromide drag" and air bell issues and haven't found a way to use this method successfully. Can the swizzle stick method be used for agitation here?
Hi Adrian! Yes, the twizzle stick works fine with this way of developing. To help get rid of air bells use a little more developer (100 ml more is good) and rap it after the initial agitation. See my agitation video for rapping.
Oh, and bromide drag is unusual with 510 unless the concentration is too high. I would say a minimum of 1+200 is great for stand and semi-stand. Try mix 510-Pyro 1+200 with distilled water.
• Develop for a total of 25 minutes @ 20c.
• Agitate for the first minute, then 10 seconds every 7 minutes (that is minutes 7, 13, and 20). Then at 25 minutes stop with three agitated water rinses at 20C and fix.
This is for Ilford FP4+ at EI of 100.
@@PictorialPlanet thanks I’ll give it a try
Hello John. Makes a lot of sense, I will give this a try. So to re cap, 1 roll 35 mm in 2 1/2 ml Rodinal in 500 ml water in a 600 ml Paterson tank. I got the original dilution of the web! You live and learn.
Yep, that'll do it. Btw , my 35mm Paterson tank, which says it needs 290ml for a 35mm film actually will take over 500ml liquid. Yours might too. For the 120 tank with 120 film you should use the 600 ml so 3ml Rodinal to 600ml water.
@@PictorialPlanet 👍
Thanks for that .
"Ilford method" is nothing like pure pysics. Just keeping max concentration difference. :) Time and water saving. I do also one distilled water "prewash" before final rins with surface tension reducing agent. To ged rid of remaining traces of water harnening compounds.
Good idea with the final rinse.
Hello John,
you convinced me to try this 510-Pyro and I'm going to do with first Delta 100. Do you have any experience with 510_Pyro and Adox CMS20II? It's my favorite landscape film and I'd love to be able to have an alternative developer to Adotech IV. Also ... does the stain color effect the use of contrast filters on multi grade paper? It's not that easy to find resources about this.
Thanks in advance!
Hi Chacker
I'm afraid I don't have any experience with 510 and CMS20II. However, you might reach out to Rüdiger Hartung who blogs here:
experimentelle-fotografie.blogspot.com/2017/09/jay-de-fehrs-510-pyro-der-entwickler.html?m=1
He might have tested it. I know he's done a lot of work with 510 and many films.
Secondly, for years there was talk about pyro stains and VC papers and I did much testing and in my opinion 510 stain is not detrimental to multi grade paper and the various contrast filters. I use it all the time with multi grade and love the results.
I have to try CMS20II now!
@@PictorialPlanet Thank you John! Yesterday I put my first roll of Delta 100 into 510 and it came out well. This stain looks good :) Currently I'm scanning and the photos do look very promising. In the Afternoon I might try how they print in the darkroom...
Regarding the CMS20 - Oh yes. It's really worth a try! Be aware of finding dust that was hiding in the grain in all other films before. If you like, have a look at my channel. I made three videos with CMS20 impressions.
Greetings
Chris
@@chacker I'll check it out!
@@PictorialPlanet Hello John, good news!
I made my first roll of Delta 100 having a bath in 510-Pyro - 7 minutes/rotary proces 1+100. Also I applied your "match your film ISO to developer tip" and got slightly more than ISO80. Had only 1/2 stops to work with. I'm very pleased with the results in terms of grain and highlights separation and will go on with playing around with this developer.
Thanks again for sharing your experience here! Greetings, Chris
Are there any occasions that you wouldn’t want to use the 510 Pyro? Would it only be for lower ISOs, say 200 and below? Another great video! Thank you!
You should probably pose that question to a 510-Pyro group. This channel covers many good developers that have a multitude of attributes. A similar question might be "Are there any occasions that you wouldn't want use Ilford Delta 100?"
@@PictorialPlanet I see what you are saying, that it is subjective. I have not used this developer and I was thinking about Rodinal, which works more fine grained while still enhancing sharpness and acutance, and that is what made me think of using it with lower speed films. I am going to use 510 Pyro the next time I develop and find out for myself! Thank you for all the great info you share in your videos!
For me, 510 is good with faster films in 35mm where it controls the grain well. A little like D23 but sharper. For slower films I like other developers with Rodinal being one of them. Right now I've been using Pan F developed in Prescysol. It's giving me some lovely photographs.
@@PictorialPlanet That’s great to know. Thank you so much. I look forward to developing with 510 Pyro for sure.
So, a question. Your development regime for semi stand in the vid is different from your website. 20 mins here, 25 mins there. 1 agg at 10 mins for 1 min here and 7,13,20 for 10 secs there. What's driving the difference and from which are you more satisfied with the results? Does the film speed/type make a diff?
Here I have demonstrated the simplest method of semi-stand which will give good results and no bromide drag based on tip "Starting with 510-Pyro" page 142 of my latest book. However, in my book I go into more detail with an extreme minimal agitation technique p149 and Casework: Ogham Stone. My website has good but sometimes older information from over the last 16 years. I add interesting info to the website to help photographers but have focused on my book. Both work well but for the best info buy my book which I have just updated to the 5th edition.
I fixed the website, thanks for that heads-up :) Feedback like this helps me a lot to keep everything synced up. Thanks again!
Hi John, I was reading your book and you mention on it that semi stand developing with 510 Pyro to use 1-300 for 20 min, here on the video you say 1-200 for 20 min. On your book, you write 1-200 ml for 9 min. I just made my first batch of 510 Pyro, and I am looking for semi stand development times. What should I try? Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. Cheers
Hi Rolando! Thanks for your comment. My preferred way to use 510 is on page 149. Defehr shared that method with me and it's very nice. Give it a try, otherwise follow this video.
@@PictorialPlanet thank you for you answer ❤️
I'm just wondering if you can give me some advice, I have a roll of 60's expired old technopan 35 which is a 140asa. If I wanted to develop it in pyro do you have any advice as I have no developing times?? Thanks Justin
I really don't know Justy. That's a pretty old and awesome film! If you have enough of it you could try some tests but I really can't give you any timings for it, sorry.
@@PictorialPlanet I appreciate your reply thanks
@@justyjust you could try a 1:300 or 1:500 full stand development for an hour in 510-Pyro. That would be my guess for a starting point. Or you could try Rodinal 1:100 stand for an hour.
As a new boy in the class that fix opening look at it hack made my jaw drop. Can this be done using any fix ? At the moment I am using off the shelf HC-110 dev one shot B dilution between 5 to 7 mins depending on film and Adox rapid plus fix 1:4 4mins.
Yes, this works with any fix. You're over fixing at the moment with 4 mins. Are you using stop bath?
@@PictorialPlanet truthfully not until now :-) as for the 4mins its the time on the bottle so went with that until I saw this video. So adding a stop in between then about 15 or so seconds fix then dip and until clear.
Definitely start using stop bath, I have a video on making your own from white vinegar. This doesn't just stop the development promptly but stops any development happening when you open the tank after 15-30 seconds in fixer. It also mitigates possible staining of your negatives. Highly recommended. Remember, time the film in the fixer and fix for a total of twice the clearing time, that is twice the time it took for the milkiness to go between the frames. If you don't see milkiness (quite possible with newly made fixer) fix for one minute.
@@PictorialPlanet I watched your vinegar stop bath video a couple of days ago and have bought a bottle for my next development.
Thank you so much for the advise and looking forward to my copy of your book to keep by my side in the studio (shed) 👍😁📷
I apologize for asking so many questions. Is the method ok to use to develop 2 rolls of 35mm at once? I get a little confused about developer per square cm of film. Would be 36 exposures on each roll. Again, thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Good question Thomas. My larger Paterson tank (used for 1x120 or 2x135) can take 600ml of developer easily and this is what I'd use for 2x135 films. That guarantees you'll have enough developer.
@@PictorialPlanet I use steel tanks and reels and the one I have that fits 2 x 135 films takes 500ml. But with 2 reels it actually doesn't quite get the full 500ml in.
I do have a larger one that can take up to 4 reels 135 or 2 in 120. I could use that but don't like the idea of the reels sliding back and forth when agitating. Would you suggest to put the 2 135 reels on the bottom and an empty 120 reel on top to keep them from sliding? And should I fill it to the top or just use 600ml?
I'd place an empty 120 reel above the two 135 reels and use 600ml.
Hey! I was wondering if you have ever experimented with pushing hp5 to 1600 with this developer? I'm wondering if I should extend the development time or use a higher/lower dilution? Thanks for the help!
No, never tried it.
Hi, I recommend you to look at the 510 Pyro technical data sheet, there is a time for pushing HP5 to 1600
Hello, seeing this has prompted me into buying some 510. Would Moersch ATS fixer work as my alkaline fix?
Regards, Kit
I don't know said fixer, sorry
If it is acidic - then it is not recommended..you can check whether the fixer is acidic or not using an acid/base strip.
Hello John, Question regarding stand development, I am using Rodinal most of the time, and in your book to use 1=200 ,for this method and 2 hour stand, how much developer would i use for a paterson 300ml tank and or 600ml tank. I am currently using 5ml in 400ml water in my 300ml to make sure developer covers film in the tank, for an hour but seems too strong. Regards
It does sound too strong. For a Paterson development tank (35mm or 120) I use 500ml water + 2 1/2 ml Rodinal developer. Both films (120 and 35mm) have the same surface area to be developed so you'll have enough developer.
Adox website: If you are using high dilutions and small developing tanks, make sure to apply at least 5 ml of concentrated developer to each 35mm film of 120 ten.
Sheet films require 5 ml of concentrate for every 4 supports of 4×5 or one sheet
Yes, I've read this too but in my experience it's not required.
Hi John, I’m a big 510-Pyro user. I was wondering if you’ve found any films for which this semi-stand method does not work?
Hello John-Paul. I mostly use Ilford films and enjoy the results on these very much but have no reason to doubt this wouldn't work on other films too.
@@PictorialPlanet I did try your stand development method of FP4+ in 510-Pyro and it worked great!
Wonderful! Thanks for letting us know.
Do the times for the semi stand development change depending on the film you use? I have quite a but of Fp4 and Delta 100 at home that I would like to try this out with. Would it be 20 minutes for both as well?
Yes, you can use the same time for both although with more use you can fine tune your times for each.
@@PictorialPlanet Thank you for the reply! I am still a bit of a beginner when it comes to developing and printing and your channel has been extremely helpful for learning. Probably the best film photography channel on youtube
I can only get TEA in 85% solution. Considering that TEA boiling point is above 300ºC and water boils at 100ºC, do you think it could work to put this 85% solution in an open container inside an oven about, let is say, 90ºC, and wait till the water evaporates? Any risks in doing so?
Yes, just warm it up and the water will evaporate.
Hello, I wonder how you came up with the 20 minutes in this example. I looked in to the Massive Dev Chart and with that solution, 1:200, FP4+ and Pyro it says 7 min and ISA 64!! I usuallly use Rodinal for stand dev., 60 min/20C. The result using Pyro is fantastic but I am a bit confused abt. the time. Is the Pyro exhausted after 20 min.?
Do you know who put that time in the Massive Dev Chart?
@@PictorialPlanet No clue!
@@PictorialPlanet Got this from Digitaltruth web page abt Dev Chart:
"..Continually updated, the chart has been online since 1995 and contains both manufacturer's published times and user submissions. All data is curated for accuracy using multiple source verification and actual user feedback."
What was the dev chart agitation?
The internet is full of nonsensical development times and iso ratings for a variety of film and developer combinations. Very much depends on who put the times up. I cross reference any times found on the internet, with as many sources with photo examples to see what the heck the guy was shooting and what was the end result was.
So! I've had my first incident of stripping the stain off my negs! I've deved 6 rolls so far and fixed with what I had which is a standard Ilford concoction. It happened to FP4 35MM! It didn't really effect HP5 or Retro 400s.
Can you compare it to an FP4 that you fixed in alkaline fix?
@@PictorialPlanet sadly I don't have any alkaline fix yet I made contact with one of your recommend suppliers who's away until May 2nd he has some TF4/5. Bought your book by the way:-)
First, thanks for buying my book! Glad your getting the fix, it'll mean you get maximum stain.
@@PictorialPlanet yes looking forward to getting it didn't realize it was coming from the US! Or are they having it printed and shipped from here?
Just deved some xp2 in 510 lol well it worked as far as there's something on the negs -)
Am treating all my existing film stocks as sacrificial after I discovered the bad HP5 the other day so nothing lost eh! Treating my experiments as optimization data so no failures really just knowledge!
Your book will be printed locally, one of the smart things Lulu does. I've just been reading a review of a new improved FP4+ batch. Apparently, Ilford have fixed the "measles " issues with their films. I've only seen one bad batch myself, a Delta 400 120 film but I know others have had worse luck. Hopefully now it's behind us. Good idea to consider your films as testers.
Any times for Tri x 400, shot at 200?
I, sorry
Do you ever have any trouble with bromide drag with 510? I tried one semi-stand with HC110 and got massive bromide drag. I want to try again with 510 but I'm wary.
Hi Daniel. No, 510 has never given me issues of bromide drag. If I’m doing a semi-stand development I use 1+200 minimum dilution or more. Keeping a developer weaker tends to reduce the chance of bromide drag but some developers are just more prone to this problem. Metol, for instance, is effected a lot my bromide, so trying stand development with D76 is going to be a problem. Pyrogallol (510) is less affected by bromide. Here’s the thing, don’t let previous problems stop you from experimenting :) Go for it!
@@PictorialPlanet I'm going to give it a shot.
@@PictorialPlanet One more question about 510 semi-stand: Is the 1+200 and 20 minutes good for HP5 or Delta 100? Massive Dev Chart doesn't show a 1+200 time for either of those.
You’ll have to tweak the length of development to get the contrast you like.
Can FP4 and HP5 developed together with this dilution and semistand agitation? Or are better used different times and dilution?
You can develop them together although I don't tend to do that. Then if something went wrong I've only messed up one film.
@@PictorialPlanet Thank you, that makes it a lot easier. In which cases you use this method and when the normal 1+100 and normal agitation at shorter develop time?
I use stand development when I have high contrast and I need to bring down the high values. Stand developing controls the contrast. I use normal development when contrast range is good or I want to increase contrast (by extending the 'normal' time).
The best way to develop FP4 and HP5 together is to use Thornton's 2-bath developer, 4.5 minutes in both baths.
@@PictorialPlanet thank you. That developer will be on my list for my next self mix.
At first I will try my this week new mixed 510 Pyro....
I was hoping you could help me with a question. I have tried 510 pyro with your semi stand method. 20 degrees, one min. agitation to start. one minute at 10 minutes. water stop bath. alkaline fix. My negatives look washed out. Like there is barely any image. 2nd time I tried came out the same. Could I have gotten a bad batch of 510 pyro. I wish I could show you the negative. I couldn't find anything on the forums.
Good morning Thomas! I'm sorry about your negatives. Of course it is possible that you have a bad batch but there's other ways to tell. Firstly, I would ask if you used the correct dilution, 1+200? Some folk have tried this with 1+500 and have washed out negatives. Secondly I'd ask if the developer works properly with a regular development of 1+100? If these other dev methods are ok then it could be film choice. Certain films don't work as well as others. Ilford films are very good for this kind of development especially FP4+ which matches pyro developers very well.
@@PictorialPlanet Thank you for replying. I did use the 1:200 dilution. The two films I tried were Tmax 100 and rpx 25. Same result on both. I tried again with rpx 25 in 1:100 and the negatives came out fine. Will just have to do more experimentation. Thank you.
Very strange. Have you got an Ilford film to test, FP4 for instance? It’s almost like the 510-pyro is half strength, but then the batch would be recalled I think. Try an Ilford FP4 - it’s a classic film that acts very well with 510.
@@PictorialPlanet I don't have any Fp4. I am not a fan of Fp4. and unfortunately I am just not in a position, financially, to buy some just for the purpose of testing. I have seen amazing results with RPX 25 and Tmax 100 online. The poor results were on 4x5 film at 1:200 whereas the good result was on 35mm film at 1:100. Thanks again for trying to help. I think I will stick to the 1:100 next time I do 4x5 and see if that helps. Nothing like flushing money down the toilet. lol
@@PictorialPlanet Sorry to keep bugging you but I just had an epiphany. Instead of using my brain I used the Massive Dev Chart volume mixer calculator and I just noticed it is incorrect. My 4x5 tank holds 500ml of liquid. At 1:200 that should be 2.5ml of pyro 510 correct? 1:200 for 400ml is 2ml and 1:200 for 600ml is 3ml so for 500 it should be 2.5. Dev chart evidently does not do decimals so it said 2ml. I think that missing .5ml might be the issue. What do you think?
John, have you ever used ABC pyro? I read it's a three-bath developing process.
No Frank, I have not. Have you and is it a good pyro developer? I'd love to hear about it.
@@PictorialPlanet I haven't yet. But it's on my photography to-do list, along with 510-Pyro.
Is Ilford rapid fix ok to use with 510 pyro?
The latest I heard was that it is used successfully by 510-pyro users.
@Pictorial Planet went ahead and ordered the alkaline. Rapid fix seems like the acidity may effect stain
I use alkaline myself. You'll enjoy 510.
Im not sure what im doing wrong but when I use semistand development with 510 pyro on medium format I get dark spots on one side of the film form what I assume is air bubbles? Seems to only occur when I develop on 120 (haven't had problems on 35mm). Am I just not tapping the tank hard enough? Never have this problem with Rodinal stand development either. Only 510 pyro. Any thoughts on how I could fix this?
Are the dark spots all along one side or spread across the film randomly?
@@PictorialPlanet It is just on one side. The side at the top of the tank
@alexanderpedranti6278 definitely sounds like bubbles being trapped by the reel. Harder tapping might do it, especially after the first few agitation cycles. Make sure you are using enough developer to cover the reel and then some. Try using 600ml if you are presently using 500ml. This adds more pressure to release the bubbles when you tap-tap. Another idea would be to scrub the reel with warm water and a toothbrush, just in case it's contaminated.
@@PictorialPlanet Thank you for the suggestions, I will try that out next time!
PS is there some reason why the other comments can’t be seen?
Other comments?
What completely shocked me about this developer was you are doing this film review with 35mm Film ! I have never seen highlights in 35mm film like this. I can't imagine imagine using it with my Medium and Large format.
I am using Kodak Fixer. I always Fix for about 5 minutes. Is this incorrect ? I test it with a piece of unexposed film strip. Put it in and it takes about 2.5 minutes to clear, so I fix for 5 minutes. How are you only fixing for ONE minute ? and why are you doing that? How is it different than 5 minutes ?
Great Video !
Yes, very good developer. I test it in my book and show it's one of the best developers you can use. Sharp as a pin. This technique with FP4 works very well. Now, down to your question Grey.
As I explain in the video, you want the film (or paper in the darkroom) to be in the fix for as short a time as possible while being fully fixed. The way we have always done this is to fix for twice the clearing time. I use an alkaline fix and keep it pretty fresh. I show in the video that I open the tank at around 30 seconds and examine the film looking for any milkiness. This can be seen easily around the frames - if you can't see the individual shots then you have cleared the film. Now leave it in the fix, gently dunking for that same time again. Now it's fixed. Fixing for longer will begin to degrade the delicate shadow and highlight detail and I really want them. I once used the Kodak fix you describe and was not happy with it. The better fixers for me are TF4, Ilford rapid fix, or Hypam. If you make your own I have videos in line for you.
Fixing is an important but straightforward part of the process that has had a lot of misinformation posted over the years. Some people fix to try to get rid if the purple dye in the film for instance. Some fix for three times or more of the clearing time. The age old technique of twice the clearing time is perfect for films.
Thanks for your question, Grey.
@@PictorialPlanet Thank you.
Ok i ordered some Hypam and some Delta 100 sheet film. And will be ordering your book shortly. 🙌
If you have used stand development on two rolls of 120 film, can you reuse the made up developer again immediately afterwards for other films. Thanks in advance
Sorry I meant semi stand not stand
This is a one shot developer so I wouldn't use it again.
Thanks
I noticed your pyro didn't go down the drain. How do you dispose it. Enjoy your videos.
Good question, G. It actually does go down into my septic tank.
So far I like this developer except for one characteristic: the pyro syrup is so thick i have trouble getting a precise amount out of the bottle. I’m using the Bostick & Sullivan formulation.
It is thick. Have you tried using a syringe?
@@PictorialPlanet I tried a 1 ml syringe but it couldn’t create enough suction. I also tried a 3 ml syringe, which pulled the developer with air bubbles which made reading the 3ml mark difficult.
Have you tried pyrocat? It's dissolved in water so is much thinner.
@@PictorialPlanet No, I haven’t. 510-pyro is the first staining developer I’ve tried and the first time I’ve tried stand development. Primarily used HC-110 for general development. Actually, you’re videos and book got me interested in 510-pyro. I was looking for a compensating developer for 120 pinhole and for general 35mm. Both of which I spot meter for the shadows. Want a developer that can help reign in the highlights.
If I warm the pyro in a water bath, would that make it flow better? And about pyrocat, there are several variants, which would you recommend?
Warming doesn't make much difference to 510. Pyrocat HD is the one to start with or, if you want to a buy pre-made staining developer, Exactol Lux or Prescysol EF
Question from a beginner. You don't seem to agree with the phrase I've heard that "you can't over fix a film". Lots of people seem to suggest just fixing everything for 5 minutes. One advantage I see with your suggestion is that you get a better sense for how exhausted the fixer is, but is there really an impact on negatives from fixing everything for 5 or 6 minutes?
This is a good comment, thank you. Yes, I like to know how exhausted my fix is, I think it's important to know. Over fixing can reduce the silver in the shadows (lightest/thinnest part of the negative) so twice clearing time is good advice to maintain delicate detail. This is worse with regular rapid fixers than alkaline fix.
Any pyro developer is good. Mostly use PMK but Pyrocat HD occasionally. Cannot beat the developer as it is great overall. Have never tried 510 but the possibilities are endless.
I really like PMK too and, as my demonstration showed, it's as good as any of them.
I disagree about the merits of the pyro. I used it in large format. It is a development that cannot be standardized in terms of timing and methods. Highlights are easily lost. Ok the 510 is easy to prepare but the result will be a negative that is difficult to print with burns and masking. Honestly, I prefer the good old D76 a thousand times over. Pyro was Weston's favorite but was great for contact printing on chloride papers and he developed negatives with inspection. On roll films I would leave it alone.
Thank you for your comment , Flavio. Of course, you know you are in the minority. I'm sorry you didn't learn the plus sides of pyro and catechin staining developers. If so you would be more balanced in your view.
Dear Sir, of course the D76 users are the minority. Certainly, You can stay a lot of time to experiments new formulas instead to take pictures and print in the darkroom. It is a choice. So I prefer to spend time to take pictures and use the D76 on great films like the TRI-X or the Delta 100. Thank you about your answer.
It would be an interesting statistic, what percentage of film developers use D76/ID11 these days. I'd be very surprised if they were more than say XTOL which is a great improvement on D76. The statistic would be even more interesting if staining vs non staining developers. In this case I would agree that there's probably more non-staining users that staining. However, my answer to you was not supposed to say that there's less D76 users but more that people who try staining developers usually like the results and don't have the issues you have observed in your trials. By the way, statistics aside, try XTOL. It's a better developer than D76 in every way. Also FX15 will give you those results if you want to make your own. Also, this channel is about options and skills in the darkroom, there's plenty of channels about taking photographs.
@@PictorialPlanet I'm here again... after many rolls on many films I stay on my opinion. Perhaps it is good in some pictures, in some style images, or camera lenses, but not like a generale purpose developer. Easy to prepare... yes of course. But the results are not good at all. In many film the grain is too big, lights details are not good, stain is not every time a advantage with modern variable contrast papers. So.. I like it but not in all situations. For general purpose I prefer my old fried D76.
Good for you, to give it a try! Yes, stay with D76 and make great photographs. At the end of the day that's what we all want. Thank you for letting me know how you got on.