"When your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you" - Tywin Lannister
@@JamesJohnson-gy3on He says it in the third book, shortly after the Red Wedding. Joffrey wants to have all of the surrendering northern and Riverlands lords executed, and Tywin gives him this advice. It's right before he says the line "Any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king", which did make it into the show.
No he did not. Not politically. Ned too saw Cersei and her kids as children. And then made the mistake of letting that affect political decision. If you as a ruling house do not punish disloyalty and betrayal (especially such grievous betrayal) then you're not a house to be feared or respected. And humans being humans, sooner or later people will forget all the positive emotion towards you in the beginning, as the go on with their daily affairs and problems. And then, if you'll have a harder time commanding loyalty.
★ Froggie Animation ★ that happened to a lot of people during Roberts rebellion. Thornes house committed to mad king and it wasn’t his choice and he got sent to wall. Not sure what ned would’ve done
It was only a second or two, but I love the look on Alice Karstark after the pledge of allegiance. You could see the relief that things are back to normal, her family and house aren't pariahs anymore, etc. Really good acting!
Jamie D that also just shows that jons decision was the right one..as always. I mean this man has always to make the difficult choices and then gets undermined by everyone for it. I mean imagine how much pressure they had. Theyre children Who know that there fathers betrayed the new King. Sitting there just waiting for there punishment. Then everyone in the room demanded to strip them from all lands and titles except one. The King. He offered them a chance by swearing allegience once again. And if you look at their faces in the end..it will be them Who remember who stood up for them, when no one else would. Thats how you make loyal allies and if jon was always good at one thing, it was making allies.
Other important thing about this and shows how Jon is the most fair ruler. He is the ONLY person in that room who can make the decision and is in direct danger for it. He could punish them, losing more people but gaining some respect and making sure there won't be another rebellion or he can forgive them and gain a few followers but appear weak to others. Every other person in that room (well, maybe not that much Sansa) is in no direct way afected by the decision, they have their castles and their people already. The only one in risk and the only one who took the choice that, to some of them, was the worst possible decision.
Still a good castle though. I'd assume that the Starks keep Dreadfort in stock to give it away to the Wildlings for their loyalty to the House Stark, when the war is over.
I think the greatest subtle reference in this scene is how similar the young girl looks like Sansa. Sansa wanted to punish this young girl, yet Geoffery did the same thing to her because of Robb's actions.
So many things to love about this scene. One, the reveal that the current heads of both House Umber and House Karstark are basically children, I mean poor Ned Umber's sword is bigger than he is and seems to be weighing him down as he walks. Two, the look of sheer terror on Alys Karstark's face as she is called forth, likely assuming she is to be executed for her father's actions and her family being left out in the literal cold with nothing to their names. Three, the look of determination on both Alys Karstark's and Ned Umber's faces as Jon calls for their pledge of loyalty to House Stark. Four and five, their acceptance back into the fold by all the others who were just 5 minutes ago calling for their heads for the actions of their previous House heads, their relief that their families stay where they are and that they are not going to be executed.
Don't know how this turns out in the books but it seems a little useless later since neither of these two or their houses do anything relevant after but that's probably more due to the poor writing by the TV show.
I've heard people say Sansa was right to undermine Jon, but think about this. If Jon had taken away their castles and lands, he'd be no better than Ramsey.
This certainly shows that Jon is perhaps the greatest leader in the Seven Kingdoms, Sansa understandably calls for justice and while many say Jon is too forgiving, he knows that the more living people there are, the better the odds against the White Walkers and their wights.
The Saint of Selhurst Jon was always the one who united people while others turn them appart. He united The wildlings, the nightswatch, the Northerners and now the targaryens for the first time ever.
Not dumb, tramutized; But yeah. Sansa spent too much time with Cersei and LittleFinger so she expects betrayal and manipulation, which is understandable seeing as her brother and parents died because of a betray. The weary of the idea of forgiving, Jon knows a united North stands half a chance.
Yeah I don't like what they've done with Sansa at all in the 7th season, very uncharacteristic. But the writing for this show has really gone down hill
I think this shows how Jon has an understanding of northern politics. Sansa does have a point about rewarding loyal Houses and punishing Houses in rebellion, but I think Jon understands that the northern lords will respond better to forgiveness and loyalty to ancient bloodlines. Sansa's tactics would work better in the south or if House Umber and House Karstark continued to rebel, but Jon's tactics cement the loyalty of the surviving members of House Umber and House Karstark.
That's a good point you're making. Sansa knows more about South politics, which don't work in the North. I dislike Sansa, but I agree she had a point, but I agree more with Jon.
Incredible acting by Ned and Alys, without any lines, without much screentime, without much experience, without fanbase. They managed to give two totally unimportant Characters more life, emotions, background and personality in less than 2 Minutes than other characters after eight Seasons. Thats some unbelievable acting right there, and i love it.
Its getting even more unbelievable if you take a look on the other projects of these actors. Especially Alys Actress is a horrible Overplaying actor (which fits to her personality btw), but both did an incredible Job in this scene. They got the best out of them, i'd defenetly like to see both of them in the future.
Sansa didn’t learn her lesson when she was under Joffrey. He showed her no mercy because of her fathers actions, and she was miserable. Now she’s wants to do the same to these kids, who are younger than she was.
@Plo Koon No but if you trigger a person knowing what will ensue or if you know that a person is going to committ murder but you don't stop him for your personal gain then you're far worse
@@Prashant-xl1rv dude dany always show that if anything don't go her way she is going to the genocide route because she don't know two thing how to rule (because she was very terrible in mareen) and how to negotiate in the books this flaws are more prenominate but in the show they try to transform her in a benevolet ruler which she is not.
@@joaocastro5225 Agreed Dany is not as perfect as in the books and she's definitely incompetent but she's not evil either. Personally I reckon incineration of King's Landing will play out quite differently in the books and I believe it will be result of a fight gone wrong between Dany and fAgeon and neither of them will intentionally burn it. However, this is not the book and as far as show is concerned, Bran seems to be the final villain and he is and Sansa backing him for her own gains it means she's evil too. PS - I like neither Starks nor Dany but putting all the blame on Dani is wrong and I personally wanted both of them to perish and House Lannister to emerge victorious
PUTIN'S NEIGHBOR that pissed me off most. That man was a beast. He killed Frey’s when he was drunk at the wedding and fought till the end. A true friend to Robb and House Stark
The World was and is filled with evil and selfish people, the Starks even if they suffered for being nice and forgiving, they did what was right. They didnt walked the same path of all those "evil and selfish" people. It cost them lifes, yes... but they stayed loyal to what they believed was fair and right ... so yes... being nice and forgiving is what made them and makes them the most loved and admired house.
This scene is just brilliant.. the difference between ruling ideology between danaerys/sansa and Jon is clearly seen. Jon is capable of seeing the bigger picture where no matter who rules the people should be able to live in just and peaceful land whereas danaerys burns the tarly chief and his heir publicly as a show of power to strike fear into her enemies.. Jon wins them over with steady and progressive approach. He has the authority to strip them of their property and homes but he restrains himself to do so and also keeps sansa in line. This scene perfectly depicts Jon's qualities as a leader and a honourable king who commands respect and love of those beneath jim
I totally agree with your point but there's one little thing. The tarly lord didn't bend the knee but these two lord kids bent their knese. If they didn't bend the knee, i am not sure if Jon would have shown mercy then :)
@@mr.fantastic6568 you seriously think he would treat two little innocent children the same way he treated an old cranky bastard who not only disrespected him but defied his orders? Seriously?
I remembered the Stark ways: "The man who passes the sentence must swing the sword." It seemed likely that if Jon had listened to Sansa's words, he'd have to execute the rest of the Umbers and Karstarks. Seeing Ned Umber was still a child, I was grateful that Jon didn't listen to Sansa.
And what is wrong with that? Tywin hanged an entire house children and women included, it might looks like an evil thing for someone how does not know anything about ruling but it keeps people in line. If they know that any tratiors would be excuted Then they wont dare even think about it
I have always loved this particular scene. I see 2 young people, undoubtedly in pain over the death of their relatives, and shunned for a situation over which they had no control. They want very much to be accepted back into the family of houses. It is too bad we don't get a chance to see more of the younger generations in the series. In many of the vassal families, they are probably the only ones left.
When I watched this originally, I was impressed with how the kids radiated outright terror at the thought of being humiliated and executed, and still walked up anyway. Without words, the actors showed that they bring them up brave and tough in the North...
He might not know he was the rightful king, but you could see in his every action how good of a ruler he was, it was in his blood and ned stark taught him well.
Just by this scene you can see jon would have made one hell of a king. He knew mercy when there was room for it, he was ruthless when there was a need for it, he was kind and humble when everyone else was thinking about their own self over the fight to come. It was a great show with last 3 episodes ruining everything but still a great show nonetheless
Jeez Sansa they're just kids. For a sec I'd thought we'd meet like a late 20s lord or lady not kids. They probably frightened and ashamed that they're family has wrought so much on House Stark hell I bet Ned Umber probably looked up to Ned Stark or Robb. And to think Sansa wanted to strip they're homes away from them. I understand that the people who rightly fought for them the Mallisters,Hornwoods and Mormonts deserve some compensation for their help but not like this. If anything this would create more problems like resentment towards House Stark all over again. I'm completely on Jon's side here it wasn't they're fault their older siblings chose the wrong side.
Green Pulsar Nah they not young they probably both okder than Arya cause she was like 11 at the beginning of the series hell Brandon was leading House stark in season one and two and lyanna Mormont is also a strict leader these kids are old enough in Westeros to lead especially if we go by the books
doedelzak Better choice in front of a good choice directly makes the good choice a bad one. Jon knows that the dead are coming for them and they would need all the help they can get but Sansa just want to stuff the damn politics into everything and consider herself the smarter one, another person that has the same characteristics is Cersie. I agree that you have to owner and reward people who fight for you but you can't just hold the youngsters for their elders mistakes. Jon has his mind on how to defeat the night king and that's totally a logical and fair thing to do in that situation.
Tahmina Jumshudlu they have to wrap up the show in linke 10 more episodes. They can't include every pointless new side character from the books. Can you imagine if they included the absolute waste of paper that was Quentyn Martell?
@@Wurzelknecht I'd rather Quentyn than the irrelevant 3rd born child Tristan who was just another body in the show. He wasn't even relevant in the books, he could have had a good small storyline like Oberyn, like on his way to Mereen. Then there's Arianne Martell a major POV character, don't make excuses for D&D shit managing of characters on this show. They opportunities that they've squandered for fan made storylines and a cliché ending....
I'm calling it now. Ned and Alice are gonna be scared shitless leading up to the battle with the White Walkers. But when it comes down to it, the Dothraki will stand in amusement as these two kids are hacking away at the Undead while in the distance they're even more dumbfounded when they see Lyanna riding a Grizzly bear into battle!
I love how Jon did not blame them for their families sins. I am surprised that no one is mentioning that Jon was more than likely blamed for "Ned' s unfaithfulness" his whole life
Plus, he's probably thinking of his little half-siblings, who are either dead or probably dead as far as he knows. He probably thinks that enough innocent children have suffered.
to think that Jon fought against their fathers and families and despite all that, he still sees the bigger picture and not only forgives them, but even defends their right to not have their home taken away... Go Jon
I think under normal circumstances Sansa would being right, but Jon is probably thinking bigger picture as well as the immediate threat looming over them that is very much not the norm. His decision not only reaffirms unity, but also shows forgiveness, which is what he showed House Glover and the others for not being there when he needed them.
I'd even wager it deepens their loyalty to him, he could have done anything to them for their families crimes but he put it in the past where it belongs and looked to the future. They'll always remember this kinda and will repay it until they're dead, so he essentially just confirmed two very powerful vassals loyalty.
Kids then: Could lead entire noble clans and estates, make regionally significant pacts, and pledge their entire family to war if called upon. Kids now: *aren't allowed to drink until 21*
That scene always reminds me that the painful reality of war is that children are unfairly forced to carry the mantle of responsibilities that adults should be handling instead.
It's fitting after all the bull Sansa went through, learning from the likes of Little Finger etc., she takes her final and most important lessons from Jon, probably the most moral man in the 7 kingdoms. The lesson here is mercy. Jon united the north with this move, presenting the logic that justice was served.
Alys Karstark had a great story in the books. Ran away to Castle Black to escape her oppressing family, married the Magnar of Thenns over there which Jon arranged, Melisandre officiated - Wildling and Northener wedding blessed by Lord of Light - Crazy! They were a sweet couple and he was more afraid of her than she was they founded House Thenn in the North. And unlike the show Thenns, they were not cannibals and actually the most civilised and cultured of the wildling clans.
@1:15 Damn, that girl's acting is brilliant. Its just a split second, but an excellent expression of relief and peace. Not many actors can pull that. I missed to notice that expression until now.
Cersei Lannister has the Lannister army behind her so she can threaten and take castles to force other houses into service. She has money for sellswords. Those Northern houses are their army. If you punish those who would kneel you give no incentive to do so. It does not serve to reduce the size of your army because Sansa learned from Cersei to always punish when you see a slight. If Jon listened to Sansa/ Cersei he would have had Gendry's tongue out for that joke about his height.
Alys has a chance to survive in the books at least now as the lady of the newly formed House Thenn. There's no Ned Umber in the books, but Greatjon is still alive (thank the Gods) and his badass uncles Crowsfood and Whorsebane Umber.
What gets me is how sansa wants to punish the kids for the sins of their fathers. Which is exactly what jof did to her. Punished her for the sins of Rob and ned...
Alys Karkstark apparently is dead. She was seen going with bran to the Weirwood tree with the other iron born, and only theon and bran toward the end were left standing.
Jon Snow's decision here is based not on emotions.. It's 2 simple logical points: 1. A son can't be held for his father's crimes, and 2. We all should band together and stop playing the game if we're all to survive what's coming. Yes, there's always the risk of someone from Karstark or Umber house holding grudge for the previous battle, but if anything Jon Snow saves Umbers and Karstarks from extinction and they're thankful to him for that. Manderley, Glover, Kerwin all questioned Jon Snow later on saying 'may be we should have signed up for you Lady Sansa'.. But Karstarks and Umbers became ferociously loyal to House Stark and Jon Snow since this point..
The look on littlefingers face was "you fucking idiot, this is going to be an easy job for me to get rid of the idiot who does not have any experience at ruling"
Sansa was acting as loyal opposition to her brother's policy. This was a great scene and great policy. The king heard and considered punishment but showed mercy. The northern lords saw that the new leaders of houses Karstark and Umber are children - but children who swore fealty and were forgiven. This whole moment was actually good for both Sansa and Jon.
No, she was undermining him openly almost to defying him and showing so obvious discontent with his decision is almost treason in times of war. She was arguing with him before all these lords. Very bad choice, very bad policy. Very stupid. Tyical Sansa.
@@ComradeAurelian "I executed traitors, I executed men who refused to follow orders". Ned and Alys committed no crimes. In circumstances such as this, it might be the 'wise' thing to do to execute all the family of the traitors as well, lest they grow up to become traitors as well.... But it's not the right thing to do. Especially when the White Walkers are coming.
@@J0ECRAWF15H remember what the boltens did? They were forgiven that is why they did it again The two houses here has the first castles in the way of the army of the dead, leaving them alive means more soldier in the army of the dead
@@ComradeAurelian potential future betrayals are not _nearly_ as immediate a threat as the White Walkers are. So have them hold up in Winterfell, with the rest of the freaking North... Like, this isn't hard, guy....
@@ComradeAurelian sansa is just dumb as well she wants to punish the kids for what their fathers did but when ned was killed and she was accused of being a traitor she got down on her knees and begged joffery to understand that her fathers crimes were not her own but now whe wants to blame them for their fathers actions. Thats just stupid.
At this point, Houses Umber & Karstark are these two young people, their maesters, a few servants & maybe a nanny that raised them from the crib onwards, a handful of old soldiers & whatever peasantry that wasn’t swept up in the war.
How scared both the Umber boy and Karstark girl must have been while Sansa almost convinced the Northern Lords to rip out their families "root and stem". I don't think the boy understood the severity of the situation but the girls look of terror as she was called showed she understood the situation
okay 1) ned umber was raised with rickon he was probably as much a brother to rickon as jon is and hates his father for giving rickon up. and 2) if sansa knew how young the heirs were/once she learned she would have agreed with jon immediately. this makes sansa seem almost cruel when shes not at all. this was unnecessary drama. we at least should have got a shot of sansas expression changing when little ned stepped out all scared - she WAS that same traitors child standing in front of a king only a few years earlier. i think its partly bad character work... sansa knows better than most how much children can suffer for their parents/older siblings mistakes and how awful it is to have your home taken from you... she would have empathised immediately
coulsonskids or maybe Ned umber (whose going to die) was never friends with him because smalljon put him as a prisoner he and osha where wearing the same clothes they wore at season 4. I doubt Sansa would have agreed with Jon she knows how dangerous they can be somehow someway they may get their revenge. Remember that Sansa has pretty much changed she's kind of similar to Cersei so she'll do almost anything to survive
Thato Omphile thats true. i guess i just always assumed smalljon wouldnt have locked rickon up right away bc he didnt yet know whether it would be more helpful to befriend or betray him, but he did seem like an idiot so who knows. ned and robb and catelyn were straight up murdered, smalljon and harald died on the battlefield. its a little different i dont think alys and ned look they're holding grudges... at the moment.
Sansa is just sewing deception when she openly contradicts Jon. She does it because Littlefinger is in the room. She wants him to think there is discord between her siblings. She’s been playing this game long enough to not let her opinions be known openly. It’s like in the Godfather when Sonny spoke out of line and Solozzo interpreted that he would be amicable to deal with if Vito was out of the picture.
@Stax 2High Ummm No Jon is the stupid one always going to the heat of battle but then again it is in his nature Sansa's been with the monsters and has learned a lot than Jon Snow will
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"When your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you" - Tywin Lannister
It's funny that all of stark children have become the things that tywin wanted for his own family
When and where did he say that?
@@JamesJohnson-gy3on He says it in the third book, shortly after the Red Wedding. Joffrey wants to have all of the surrendering northern and Riverlands lords executed, and Tywin gives him this advice. It's right before he says the line "Any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king", which did make it into the show.
@@MooVeeMan damn i need to read the book
@@nbofddsrtre6216 They are fantastic!
The moment people see that the heads of House Umber and Karstark are children is when people realize that Jon probably made the right choice.
No he did not. Not politically.
Ned too saw Cersei and her kids as children. And then made the mistake of letting that affect political decision.
If you as a ruling house do not punish disloyalty and betrayal (especially such grievous betrayal) then you're not a house to be feared or respected. And humans being humans, sooner or later people will forget all the positive emotion towards you in the beginning, as the go on with their daily affairs and problems.
And then, if you'll have a harder time commanding loyalty.
Well he also had Olly hanged though
They already knew they were kids. All noble families know all other noble family members. They have maesters who teach them that
★ Froggie Animation ★ that happened to a lot of people during Roberts rebellion. Thornes house committed to mad king and it wasn’t his choice and he got sent to wall. Not sure what ned would’ve done
@@tiffles3890 So it was Ned Umber and Alys Karstarks who betrayed the starks?
Shows how much death there has been to this point were all the leaders are the teenagers and kids haha
If you read the books you'll know it's almost just like that
Never underestimate children that forced to adulthood. They will suprise you.
Nurlinda F Sihotang
I agree. One needs to look no further than Lyanna Mormont.
And the kid dies too
MAAD TEE Because in the books, not even 2 years have passed. In the show, 5 years have passed since where they left the books.
It was only a second or two, but I love the look on Alice Karstark after the pledge of allegiance. You could see the relief that things are back to normal, her family and house aren't pariahs anymore, etc. Really good acting!
Jamie D that also just shows that jons decision was the right one..as always. I mean this man has always to make the difficult choices and then gets undermined by everyone for it.
I mean imagine how much pressure they had. Theyre children Who know that there fathers betrayed the new King. Sitting there just waiting for there punishment. Then everyone in the room demanded to strip them from all lands and titles except one. The King. He offered them a chance by swearing allegience once again. And if you look at their faces in the end..it will be them Who remember who stood up for them, when no one else would.
Thats how you make loyal allies and if jon was always good at one thing, it was making allies.
Other important thing about this and shows how Jon is the most fair ruler. He is the ONLY person in that room who can make the decision and is in direct danger for it. He could punish them, losing more people but gaining some respect and making sure there won't be another rebellion or he can forgive them and gain a few followers but appear weak to others.
Every other person in that room (well, maybe not that much Sansa) is in no direct way afected by the decision, they have their castles and their people already. The only one in risk and the only one who took the choice that, to some of them, was the worst possible decision.
Amando damn right, good explanation.
Jamie D yes that was relief on her face.
Amando very true
Ned would approve but then again he dead
atleast his children learned from his mistakes
He deaaadddd 😂
Ramsay wouldn't but and he died too mate
@@flaminmongrel6955 Gordon Ramsay is still alive you fool.
They killed John to but that didn't stick
Both jon and sansa are right in their points but id just have to say that jons decision is the best one
The Ghost One x They still have the dreadfort to give away no Bolton is alive to claim it.
Brunr Imr it's being held by Ramseys hounds for their service
@@toxsghost should have been ghost who got to eat Ramsey
Who the fuck wants that creepy place?
Ah who am I kidding? I'd take it!
Still a good castle though. I'd assume that the Starks keep Dreadfort in stock to give it away to the Wildlings for their loyalty to the House Stark, when the war is over.
I think the greatest subtle reference in this scene is how similar the young girl looks like Sansa. Sansa wanted to punish this young girl, yet Geoffery did the same thing to her because of Robb's actions.
nice parallel
bingo
Ben C Damn. Good catch. She does resemble a young Sansa.
@@blackknight6768 Because the actress is Sophie's stand in.
jeans4484 oh dang. So the parallel was intentional.
So many things to love about this scene. One, the reveal that the current heads of both House Umber and House Karstark are basically children, I mean poor Ned Umber's sword is bigger than he is and seems to be weighing him down as he walks. Two, the look of sheer terror on Alys Karstark's face as she is called forth, likely assuming she is to be executed for her father's actions and her family being left out in the literal cold with nothing to their names. Three, the look of determination on both Alys Karstark's and Ned Umber's faces as Jon calls for their pledge of loyalty to House Stark. Four and five, their acceptance back into the fold by all the others who were just 5 minutes ago calling for their heads for the actions of their previous House heads, their relief that their families stay where they are and that they are not going to be executed.
use actual numbers my dude
Don't know how this turns out in the books but it seems a little useless later since neither of these two or their houses do anything relevant after but that's probably more due to the poor writing by the TV show.
@@goo2098 In the books Jon is still "dead"
Lol, both of them end up dying for House Stark
I've heard people say Sansa was right to undermine Jon, but think about this. If Jon had taken away their castles and lands, he'd be no better than Ramsey.
you and *M* are both right.
True, plus he can't afford any battles between the Northeners when the long night comes.
I agree, the producers are shitting all over Sansa's character this season. I fear what will come next.
Ramsey would've flayed the boy.
He'd rapethe girl and sent his bitches after her.
Cromulon AKA a Floating head She should not undermine him IN FRONT of the bannermen.
the smile of relief in Alys' face after the lords of the north start cheering, is so heartwarming...
Alys Karstark's smile after everyone agrees to forgive her is priceless. Love that little detail.
Do you know the soundtrack that plays i can't find it?
Lyanna's expressions...priceless
BENE DELBI She wants their castles 😂😂😂
Edgardo Muñoz I hope we see more of her in the last season.
BENE DELBI Im agree. She is a nice character. I hope that this little girl take more relevanse in the last season. Grettings from Panamá
She's like "We don't need kids here".
I bet her and Arya would have been best friends if things were different
This certainly shows that Jon is perhaps the greatest leader in the Seven Kingdoms, Sansa understandably calls for justice and while many say Jon is too forgiving, he knows that the more living people there are, the better the odds against the White Walkers and their wights.
The Saint of Selhurst Jon was always the one who united people while others turn them appart. He united The wildlings, the nightswatch, the Northerners and now the targaryens for the first time ever.
Sana is dumb and still has his brain in King´s Landing while Jon has seen a much bigger picture long ago.
Not dumb, tramutized; But yeah. Sansa spent too much time with Cersei and LittleFinger so she expects betrayal and manipulation, which is understandable seeing as her brother and parents died because of a betray. The weary of the idea of forgiving, Jon knows a united North stands half a chance.
Sansa was (not so much anymore) too much like Cersei in that scene.
Yeah I don't like what they've done with Sansa at all in the 7th season, very uncharacteristic. But the writing for this show has really gone down hill
I think this shows how Jon has an understanding of northern politics. Sansa does have a point about rewarding loyal Houses and punishing Houses in rebellion, but I think Jon understands that the northern lords will respond better to forgiveness and loyalty to ancient bloodlines. Sansa's tactics would work better in the south or if House Umber and House Karstark continued to rebel, but Jon's tactics cement the loyalty of the surviving members of House Umber and House Karstark.
That's a good point you're making. Sansa knows more about South politics, which don't work in the North. I dislike Sansa, but I agree she had a point, but I agree more with Jon.
@@LadyDynamitez this is 2 years later but I feel like sansa is geared more towards souther politics since she had to grow up fast in kings landing
Sansa is geared towards southern politics, but becomes Queen of the North 😬
Incredible acting by Ned and Alys, without any lines, without much screentime, without much experience, without fanbase. They managed to give two totally unimportant Characters more life, emotions, background and personality in less than 2 Minutes than other characters after eight Seasons.
Thats some unbelievable acting right there, and i love it.
Its getting even more unbelievable if you take a look on the other projects of these actors. Especially Alys Actress is a horrible Overplaying actor (which fits to her personality btw), but both did an incredible Job in this scene. They got the best out of them, i'd defenetly like to see both of them in the future.
Sansa didn’t learn her lesson when she was under Joffrey. He showed her no mercy because of her fathers actions, and she was miserable. Now she’s wants to do the same to these kids, who are younger than she was.
What do you expect from her? She's the one who triggered Dany for her own selfish gains which resulted in burning of King's Landing
She didn't want to punish the kids, she wanted to reward the loyal men who fought beside them.
@Plo Koon No but if you trigger a person knowing what will ensue or if you know that a person is going to committ murder but you don't stop him for your personal gain then you're far worse
@@Prashant-xl1rv dude dany always show that if anything don't go her way she is going to the genocide route because she don't know two thing how to rule (because she was very terrible in mareen) and how to negotiate in the books this flaws are more prenominate but in the show they try to transform her in a benevolet ruler which she is not.
@@joaocastro5225 Agreed Dany is not as perfect as in the books and she's definitely incompetent but she's not evil either.
Personally I reckon incineration of King's Landing will play out quite differently in the books and I believe it will be result of a fight gone wrong between Dany and fAgeon and neither of them will intentionally burn it.
However, this is not the book and as far as show is concerned, Bran seems to be the final villain and he is and Sansa backing him for her own gains it means she's evil too.
PS - I like neither Starks nor Dany but putting all the blame on Dani is wrong and I personally wanted both of them to perish and House Lannister to emerge victorious
They did my boy Smalljon wrong in the show. The man was loyal to House Stark 100%
And Greatjon got an offscreen death...
PUTIN'S NEIGHBOR that pissed me off most. That man was a beast. He killed Frey’s when he was drunk at the wedding and fought till the end. A true friend to Robb and House Stark
Leni _S Yeah he was a damn beast for sure. He literally laughed after he just got his fingers chewed off by a damn wolf.
The actor had to take a break as he got glassed
and a bit of his face bitten in a pub fight
@@thomasalvarez6456 lmao this can’t be true. That just sounds too much like his character
This scene perfectly shows why Jon is a better ruler than Sansa. He's forgiving and right, a true King in the North
Nice and forgiving
That's the Stark way.
It landed Ned in the grave
The World was and is filled with evil and selfish people, the Starks even if they suffered for being nice and forgiving, they did what was right. They didnt walked the same path of all those "evil and selfish" people.
It cost them lifes, yes... but they stayed loyal to what they believed was fair and right ... so yes... being nice and forgiving is what made them and makes them the most loved and admired house.
lol what they need now are warm bodies, they can't afford to have a conflict with another house
Road 35 Nah the Starks aren't the forgiving type
Road 35 not really only John Showed the forgiveness side but the rest of the starks is in justice only side
This scene is just brilliant.. the difference between ruling ideology between danaerys/sansa and Jon is clearly seen. Jon is capable of seeing the bigger picture where no matter who rules the people should be able to live in just and peaceful land whereas danaerys burns the tarly chief and his heir publicly as a show of power to strike fear into her enemies.. Jon wins them over with steady and progressive approach. He has the authority to strip them of their property and homes but he restrains himself to do so and also keeps sansa in line. This scene perfectly depicts Jon's qualities as a leader and a honourable king who commands respect and love of those beneath jim
...Who's Jim?
I totally agree with your point but there's one little thing. The tarly lord didn't bend the knee but these two lord kids bent their knese. If they didn't bend the knee, i am not sure if Jon would have shown mercy then :)
@@efadulkabir9153 Jon Wouldnt have burnt them with fire
he would have locked them up
their is a reason why prisons exhist
@@uvindukulathunga3860 nah his gonna behead them like he did with janos slynt
@@mr.fantastic6568 you seriously think he would treat two little innocent children the same way he treated an old cranky bastard who not only disrespected him but defied his orders? Seriously?
“Yesterdays’ wars don’t matter anymore”
That’s great leadership
This was actually quite a good scene. Power tempered with mercy is always be the sharpest blade.
I remembered the Stark ways: "The man who passes the sentence must swing the sword." It seemed likely that if Jon had listened to Sansa's words, he'd have to execute the rest of the Umbers and Karstarks. Seeing Ned Umber was still a child, I was grateful that Jon didn't listen to Sansa.
And what is wrong with that? Tywin hanged an entire house children and women included, it might looks like an evil thing for someone how does not know anything about ruling but it keeps people in line. If they know that any tratiors would be excuted Then they wont dare even think about it
yazzy themlgpro if Jon would of did that then he would be no better then Ramsey
Notice how the music changes in tone at 00:38. From dark and menacing to more “bright and hopeful”
Ho poor Umber boy 😢, you didn't deserve such a painful end...
I have always loved this particular scene. I see 2 young people, undoubtedly in pain over the death of their relatives, and shunned for a situation over which they had no control. They want very much to be accepted back into the family of houses. It is too bad we don't get a chance to see more of the younger generations in the series. In many of the vassal families, they are probably the only ones left.
When I watched this originally, I was impressed with how the kids radiated outright terror at the thought of being humiliated and executed, and still walked up anyway. Without words, the actors showed that they bring them up brave and tough in the North...
He might not know he was the rightful king, but you could see in his every action how good of a ruler he was, it was in his blood and ned stark taught him well.
And sadly both are dead, Alys Karstark was killed in a deleted scene during the Battle of Winterfell defending Bran
What?!
Just by this scene you can see jon would have made one hell of a king. He knew mercy when there was room for it, he was ruthless when there was a need for it, he was kind and humble when everyone else was thinking about their own self over the fight to come. It was a great show with last 3 episodes ruining everything but still a great show nonetheless
3 episodes or 3 seasons? Because the last 3 seasons certainly don’t hold up to the rest
Who came back just to see Ned Umber, after his death?
Gamer of Slaanesh meeeeeee
the relief on karstarks face when she realizes that she willl live. wish they kept the camera on her. i also like how jon pronounces " ned umber " lol
Jeez Sansa they're just kids.
For a sec I'd thought we'd meet like a late 20s lord or lady not kids.
They probably frightened and ashamed that they're family has wrought so much on House Stark hell
I bet Ned Umber probably looked up to Ned Stark or Robb.
And to think Sansa wanted to strip they're homes away from them.
I understand that the people who rightly fought for them the Mallisters,Hornwoods and Mormonts deserve some compensation for their help but not like this.
If anything this would create more problems like resentment towards House Stark all over again.
I'm completely on Jon's side here it wasn't they're fault their older siblings chose the wrong side.
If they supported their family then they should be punished. Plain and simple.
Antonius Robertus What?
*supported*
Green Pulsar Nah they not young they probably both okder than Arya cause she was like 11 at the beginning of the series hell Brandon was leading House stark in season one and two and lyanna Mormont is also a strict leader these kids are old enough in Westeros to lead especially if we go by the books
doedelzak
Better choice in front of a good choice directly makes the good choice a bad one.
Jon knows that the dead are coming for them and they would need all the help they can get but Sansa just want to stuff the damn politics into everything and consider herself the smarter one, another person that has the same characteristics is Cersie.
I agree that you have to owner and reward people who fight for you but you can't just hold the youngsters for their elders mistakes.
Jon has his mind on how to defeat the night king and that's totally a logical and fair thing to do in that situation.
R.I.P Ned Umber and the whole house of Umber!
THERE SITS THE ONLY KING I MEAN TO BEND MY KNEE TO..... THE KING IN THE NORTH. GREAT JON UMBAHHH
1:00 "Yesterdays wars don't matter anymore"..
Lord Glover looks at Jon: wait wut?
Can’t believe they made Alys Karstark just a side chick. She is awesome in books.
Tahmina Jumshudlu You can't have 10000 characters in the show dude.
Tahmina Jumshudlu they have to wrap up the show in linke 10 more episodes. They can't include every pointless new side character from the books. Can you imagine if they included the absolute waste of paper that was Quentyn Martell?
@@Wurzelknecht I'd rather Quentyn than the irrelevant 3rd born child Tristan who was just another body in the show. He wasn't even relevant in the books, he could have had a good small storyline like Oberyn, like on his way to Mereen. Then there's Arianne Martell a major POV character, don't make excuses for D&D shit managing of characters on this show. They opportunities that they've squandered for fan made storylines and a cliché ending....
Im litellry tearing when alys karstark and ned umber pull out their sword and swear loyal to house stark ... 😭
Little Umber 's chain
A good ruler knows when to punish his enemies and when to show mercy.
had a solid 30 seconds screentime lmao
Who came after s8e1, I pity the kid Ned Umber, poor fellow
Poor kids.
I love the relief in their faces when Jon shows Mercy.
Rip Umber
I'm calling it now. Ned and Alice are gonna be scared shitless leading up to the battle with the White Walkers. But when it comes down to it, the Dothraki will stand in amusement as these two kids are hacking away at the Undead while in the distance they're even more dumbfounded when they see Lyanna riding a Grizzly bear into battle!
"Lyanna riding a Grizzly bear into battle!" O God YESSS!!! XD
Nah, these two characters will never show up again, new game of thrones style.
Exactly thats what pisses me off.
TChops 2019 i think one of the leaks said that those 2 will die at the first episode
Or they will die horrible deaths against the night kings army. Their house is on the night kings path to winterfell
R.I.P. Ned Umber
This is why Jon should have been king, you can see the relief on their faces they will never forget this act of kindness
This kid scared the shit out of me, if you know u know
I love how Jon did not blame them for their families sins. I am surprised that no one is mentioning that Jon was more than likely blamed for "Ned' s unfaithfulness" his whole life
Plus, he's probably thinking of his little half-siblings, who are either dead or probably dead as far as he knows. He probably thinks that enough innocent children have suffered.
ginny ledwell that too did not think of that
Also how Sansa was beaten and humiliated by Joffrey because her brother was leading a rebellion
to think that Jon fought against their fathers and families and despite all that, he still sees the bigger picture and not only forgives them, but even defends their right to not have their home taken away... Go Jon
"Now and always..." Always seems to get here a lot faster than people think.
He pronounces "battlefield" so interesting.
Baalfild
“Bah-tel” field
I think under normal circumstances Sansa would being right, but Jon is probably thinking bigger picture as well as the immediate threat looming over them that is very much not the norm. His decision not only reaffirms unity, but also shows forgiveness, which is what he showed House Glover and the others for not being there when he needed them.
I'd even wager it deepens their loyalty to him, he could have done anything to them for their families crimes but he put it in the past where it belongs and looked to the future. They'll always remember this kinda and will repay it until they're dead, so he essentially just confirmed two very powerful vassals loyalty.
Iguess you should pay for your parents sins for everything they have done in life.
And then lord Glover abandoned him again. So, Jon Is an idiot.
Kids then: Could lead entire noble clans and estates, make regionally significant pacts, and pledge their entire family to war if called upon.
Kids now: *aren't allowed to drink until 21*
KIDS NOWADAYS ARE BEING RETARDS IN TIKTOK.
That scene always reminds me that the painful reality of war is that children are unfairly forced to carry the mantle of responsibilities that adults should be handling instead.
The house STARK always will be the LORDS of the NORTH
WINTER IS COMING
Jgonzalo TBEJARANO18 it's already here
Winter has come
It came. It went. It was shit.
KINGS. IN. the North you hopefully meant?
It's fitting after all the bull Sansa went through, learning from the likes of Little Finger etc., she takes her final and most important lessons from Jon, probably the most moral man in the 7 kingdoms. The lesson here is mercy. Jon united the north with this move, presenting the logic that justice was served.
You see these young kids symbolizing the future and hope of the North? See? See? Now forget it
You must not name your child "Ned" in westoros............it's a curse.......
Aaaaand they're both dead :/
Things spiral out of control
Never get tired of watching this
Alys Karstark had a great story in the books. Ran away to Castle Black to escape her oppressing family, married the Magnar of Thenns over there which Jon arranged, Melisandre officiated - Wildling and Northener wedding blessed by Lord of Light - Crazy!
They were a sweet couple and he was more afraid of her than she was they founded House Thenn in the North. And unlike the show Thenns, they were not cannibals and actually the most civilised and cultured of the wildling clans.
Both were right. Both were wrong. But it all worked out in the end
@1:15 Damn, that girl's acting is brilliant. Its just a split second, but an excellent expression of relief and peace. Not many actors can pull that. I missed to notice that expression until now.
When Jon Shows mercy to them, they show more loyalty yo him.
You cannot make a house loyal to you for no condition. U have to prove u are worth King for them
Hoang Duong sparing there life's and castles is a good start
Cersei Lannister has the Lannister army behind her so she can threaten and take castles to force other houses into service. She has money for sellswords. Those Northern houses are their army.
If you punish those who would kneel you give no incentive to do so.
It does not serve to reduce the size of your army because Sansa learned from Cersei to always punish when you see a slight. If Jon listened to Sansa/ Cersei he would have had Gendry's tongue out for that joke about his height.
jeez who knew that boy would be the biggest jumpscare in history
You have lost
And long will be the night
When you allow the children
And women to fight
Here is to Jon, may long he reign
This is sweet until you realize both are doomed as their castles are both directly south of east watch by the see and in the path of the night king.
Yeah I read the spoilers and it doesn't look good for them.
They're all in Winterfell.
That's exactly the reason Jon wants House Umber and Karstark to be loyal to the Starks again.
Alys has a chance to survive in the books at least now as the lady of the newly formed House Thenn. There's no Ned Umber in the books, but Greatjon is still alive (thank the Gods) and his badass uncles Crowsfood and Whorsebane Umber.
What gets me is how sansa wants to punish the kids for the sins of their fathers. Which is exactly what jof did to her. Punished her for the sins of Rob and ned...
Back when Jon was more than “U ah ma kween” and “I dun wan et”
One of my favorite scenes, especially that background music. It is really heart touching one...
Alys Karkstark apparently is dead. She was seen going with bran to the Weirwood tree with the other iron born, and only theon and bran toward the end were left standing.
when was that??? For real
In book story is different
Jon Snow's decision here is based not on emotions.. It's 2 simple logical points: 1. A son can't be held for his father's crimes, and 2. We all should band together and stop playing the game if we're all to survive what's coming. Yes, there's always the risk of someone from Karstark or Umber house holding grudge for the previous battle, but if anything Jon Snow saves Umbers and Karstarks from extinction and they're thankful to him for that.
Manderley, Glover, Kerwin all questioned Jon Snow later on saying 'may be we should have signed up for you Lady Sansa'.. But Karstarks and Umbers became ferociously loyal to House Stark and Jon Snow since this point..
Take Lady Sansa outside
Ser Davos bring me my sword
I have friends. You'll see. Important friends in Littlefinger.
'I will be brave unto the end of all'
Alyce Karstark looking frighten but then standing straight and tall as she approached Jon, great acting on the actress's part.
To all the people saying he should have listened to Sansa I would like to say this it made no sense to make enemies of the karstarks and the umbers
He should have made them marry one of his Bannerman
There were almost none of their armies left... He shoudl've killed em all. Hanging because they are childrens !
@@maadtee6281 shouldve made them marry eachother seeing they both are still young
These 2 houses will be the first to die by the army of the dead
Jon uniting the North and solidifying his position. The look on Littlefingers face was " dam he's actually pretty good at leading."
The look on littlefingers face was "you fucking idiot, this is going to be an easy job for me to get rid of the idiot who does not have any experience at ruling"
Sansa was acting as loyal opposition to her brother's policy. This was a great scene and great policy. The king heard and considered punishment but showed mercy. The northern lords saw that the new leaders of houses Karstark and Umber are children - but children who swore fealty and were forgiven. This whole moment was actually good for both Sansa and Jon.
No, she was undermining him openly almost to defying him and showing so obvious discontent with his decision is almost treason in times of war. She was arguing with him before all these lords. Very bad choice, very bad policy. Very stupid. Tyical Sansa.
Ned Umber is probably named after Ned Stark
"dont pee, dont pee, dont pee, dont pee" now and always "thank god fer that"
1:25 " It's the first day of the rest of your life"😆
Till here I have huge respect on Jon, after s8 tpruuuuuuu
This is what makes Jon different
Jon was ultimately in the right on this.
How so? By forgiving tratiors? What stops anyone from betraying the starks if they know in the case that they fail it will all be forgiven
@@ComradeAurelian "I executed traitors, I executed men who refused to follow orders".
Ned and Alys committed no crimes. In circumstances such as this, it might be the 'wise' thing to do to execute all the family of the traitors as well, lest they grow up to become traitors as well.... But it's not the right thing to do. Especially when the White Walkers are coming.
@@J0ECRAWF15H remember what the boltens did? They were forgiven that is why they did it again
The two houses here has the first castles in the way of the army of the dead, leaving them alive means more soldier in the army of the dead
@@ComradeAurelian potential future betrayals are not _nearly_ as immediate a threat as the White Walkers are.
So have them hold up in Winterfell, with the rest of the freaking North... Like, this isn't hard, guy....
@@ComradeAurelian sansa is just dumb as well she wants to punish the kids for what their fathers did but when ned was killed and she was accused of being a traitor she got down on her knees and begged joffery to understand that her fathers crimes were not her own but now whe wants to blame them for their fathers actions. Thats just stupid.
At this point, Houses Umber & Karstark are these two young people, their maesters, a few servants & maybe a nanny that raised them from the crib onwards, a handful of old soldiers & whatever peasantry that wasn’t swept up in the war.
Loved this with all my heart
Like the wise Kings of old.
The "wise" kings of old? XD
The "wise" kings of old? XD
Jeahreys targaryen
Ser Davis take lady Sansa outside .... lady mormoth bring me by swords
How scared both the Umber boy and Karstark girl must have been while Sansa almost convinced the Northern Lords to rip out their families "root and stem". I don't think the boy understood the severity of the situation but the girls look of terror as she was called showed she understood the situation
"This is my decision & My decision is final. " words proves he is a king
Jon Snow is Ned Stark 2.0
Sansa is Catelyn 2.0
okay 1) ned umber was raised with rickon he was probably as much a brother to rickon as jon is and hates his father for giving rickon up. and 2) if sansa knew how young the heirs were/once she learned she would have agreed with jon immediately. this makes sansa seem almost cruel when shes not at all. this was unnecessary drama. we at least should have got a shot of sansas expression changing when little ned stepped out all scared - she WAS that same traitors child standing in front of a king only a few years earlier. i think its partly bad character work... sansa knows better than most how much children can suffer for their parents/older siblings mistakes and how awful it is to have your home taken from you... she would have empathised immediately
coulsonskids or maybe Ned umber (whose going to die) was never friends with him because smalljon put him as a prisoner he and osha where wearing the same clothes they wore at season 4. I doubt Sansa would have agreed with Jon she knows how dangerous they can be somehow someway they may get their revenge. Remember that Sansa has pretty much changed she's kind of similar to Cersei so she'll do almost anything to survive
Thato Omphile thats true. i guess i just always assumed smalljon wouldnt have locked rickon up right away bc he didnt yet know whether it would be more helpful to befriend or betray him, but he did seem like an idiot so who knows.
ned and robb and catelyn were straight up murdered, smalljon and harald died on the battlefield. its a little different i dont think alys and ned look they're holding grudges... at the moment.
coulsonskids it's because they fear the white wolf they probably heard stories about him so they don't want to oppose him
Now this is a great king
If I were the elder Karstark or Umber son I would have remain defiant such as like “You can take my army, BUT YOU WILL NEVER HAVE MY ALLEGIANCE!”
Sansa is just sewing deception when she openly contradicts Jon. She does it because Littlefinger is in the room. She wants him to think there is discord between her siblings.
She’s been playing this game long enough to not let her opinions be known openly. It’s like in the Godfather when Sonny spoke out of line and Solozzo interpreted that he would be amicable to deal with if Vito was out of the picture.
Exactly she played LF with Arya too.
@Stax 2High Ummm No Jon is the stupid one always going to the heat of battle but then again it is in his nature Sansa's been with the monsters and has learned a lot than Jon Snow will
Byron MacGreggor fuck Sansa
Stop trying too hard to find something that isn’t there. She just believes she knows better as usual. Looking down on him.
Looking for these two to in some way save Jon in the near future.
To repay him for his standing up for them.
kinda like that little smirk on littlefinger's face, like, "Hmm, more toys to manipulate"
This shows Jon was the only Stark except Robb who lived by Ned Stark's principles.
here after Ned Umber's screamo