Thank you. I know there are other bits of equipment which can solve the same issue but since I was having the charger anyway it seemed silly not to spend a few pennies on the connectors. I’m very much enjoying the colour theme as well! Currently in the process of painting all the cupboard doors the same dark blue
Nice backup solution! As you said the doors opening/closing/light coming on do kill the battery when not moving. May be unrelated for yourself but I noticed my reversing camera IR where glowing ever so slightly, thought it may have been something do with the radiation in them. After a week of not using the van over xmas completely flat and no glow. Different camera setup to yourself but wired the same as your video. Think ill need to swap my setup to ignition live or add a switch. Cracking build aswell
Much appreciated! Yeah I’m pretty sure it is the opening and closing the doors all day every day and no driving. Ive got my reverse camera & screen which I’ve currently got unplugged as well just so it’s not draining power.
Ive just re fitted dual batteries in my Defender principally for operating my winch. I bought a 12 12 30 isolated Victron but cant find how to wire it to enable me to bypass it and get two lots of amps from my batteries for winching. Thinking i may just parallel connect the two bateries and get one of these chargers to hard mount then run a cable from garage to the Defender and keep it on charge every time i am home. Thoughts?
If you do happen to have any dramas with regards to the Dc to DC switching on when the AC charger is charging the Starter battery, I believe the Orion has a little jumper pin thing on it that lets you run an ACC wire to it so it only turns on when it senses an ACC voltage + the set voltage number from the settings. Loving your videos and the detail you go into its been great motivation for my build. Also strangely satisfying seeing all the Victron items appear on the app like a nice little collection :P
Very true that is another option I could’ve used the remote on/off pins in the ignition live format. I’m currently using those pins for a low temperature charge cut off for the lithium batteries, so the Orion doesn’t start when the engine is turned on but the battery temperature is below 7°. This is done by using the low temperature trigger fire the relay on built into the BMV. I found that the Orions automatic engine turn on detection feature don’t activate when the charger is plugged in, those photos and setting this can changed in settings too. It is definitely quite stretchy satisfying seeing all the items appear in the app! I’ve got a Raspberry Pi running Victron’s Venus OS now so I can access some of the Victron kit via the app remotely! Thank you very much and best of luck with your build!
Nice one Alex! I've got the same 30A Victron charger, but with the traditional site hookup through RCD setup. Completely hidden though coming under the doors.
Thank you. It’s a great charger. Yeah I will be doing a traditional Hook up with RCD to prevent the whole electrocuted in case of a fault thing. And a hidden hook up point
Now that you have the 30A charger, your DC-DC is basically redundant. You can now run the inverter directly from your alternator/starter and charge the house battery with the charger. It's not the most efficient way, but the alternator has more than enough capacity and the tiny losses are negligible. I run this scenario and just recently did a month long tour of the Australian outback with no problems at all. :-)
Not really redundant. The Dc to Dc charger is only one way. Powered by the starter battery ( when the engine is run ) to charge the leisure system. The 30 amp charger is one way & powered via the inverter which is powered by the leisure system to charger starter battery in an emergency if I flattened the starter battery.
@@MispronouncedAdventures The combination of an inverter and a charger is exactly the same as a DC-DC converter (to be technical, that is exactly how it works inside the DC-DC converter, the dc is switched at high speed creating an ac pulse, that is fed into a transformer to change the voltage and then rectified back to DC). If you have Anderson plugs on both the Start battery/alternator feed and the house battery, then you just swap the direction so that the house battery is charging the starter battery. Your big advantage of now having an AC to DC charger is that you can now charge either of your batteries when camping at a powered site. 😃
Hey there, just ordered my Ford Transit! The dealer is trying to find a van in stock for me... No lucky on the 2nd hand front. Have you heard / considered the CTEK DS250 + Smartpass 120S? From what I heard the Smartpass let’s you “combine” the two batteries, when the car is running (up to 120A charging!). The other thing it does is trickle charge the starter battery from the house battery, so you don’t get a flat battery... and the DS250 adds 20A and solar MPPT (up to 300W). And does the same, trickle the starter battery from the solar...
Yeah I do know the CTEK units, Great looking Units. I installed one in a friend of mine’s van. I had looked into them myself originally ( not with the SmartPass ) but I decide to go for which they Victron as I could build the System a bit more to my own specification. Since having 500watts of solar on the roof which has a VOC of three times what the CTek unit could handle . since the rest of the equipment Im using is Victron they nicely all integrate into one app monitoring and customisation. however The trickle charge option which the CTek has is something I do wish my Victron B2B charger could do! The CTek is definitely a simpler solution for an electrical system and if it fits your criteria it will probably be perfect Congratulations on the transit! I hope it arrives soon!
Hi Bud.. You only need the connection to the mains battery charger to the van battery, as the b2b will sense that the van is charging and then charge the leisure batteries as well..
99% of the time the mains charger is for Charging the leisure system, The added connection for the starter battery was just for emergencies/ flat battery scenario. In this case I specifically set up the Engine detection feature on the B2B to a voltage higher than the bulk voltage change profile on charger to that avoid the scenario of the B2B turning on. If the 30amp B2B charger turns on, when the 30amp charged is attached that defeats the purpose of charging the starter battery in an emergency/flat starter battery scenario of the inverter.
Annoying habit with new model Transit MK8, transit Customs & transit Connects. Upon opening a door or being unlock The body control module is awake and during power. Normally not an issue in normal use, But when you’re still building the van and the van is generally unlocked and you’re going in and out of it all day that drain is always there, and being lockdown is not being driven hardly at all to recharger it
WOW.. didn't think it would do that.. I have spent all day today watching all your van build video's, you have done well with it.. I would just like to ask..? I have fitted no end of the victron b2b's, unless you use an ignition sense, when you connect any type of battery charger to charge the van battery it will take the voltage up and the victron b2b thinks the van engine is running and will start to charge the leisure batteries. But well done on the build, love it. well all but the bed.. Haaha
Depending on how you set up Victron B2B. You can used a ignition live to the remote L/H pin on the use a physical connection to turn the Dc to Dc charger on and off with the engine ( I don’t use this ) , or you can use the software-based automated engine detection which works off van’s system voltage. I used the software based Engine detection which work of looking for a ( user defined ) voltage of 13.9v to believe the engine is running. My smart mains charger on the other hand I have my charge profile set with the bulk/absorption voltage set to reach 13.85V. So with the mains charger attached to the a starter battery to charge it if its flat the DC to DC charger won’t turn on as it will only turn on when the System voltage reaches 13.9v, which is impossible for the mains charger to do so as I limited it to a Max of 13.85v. Obviously when I actually do turn the engine over the alternator is kicking out 14v+ so then the DC to DC Charger turns on like I would want it to. I actually use the L/H pins on the DCDC Charger as a low temperature charge cut off for protecting my lithium batteries. if my Victron BMV-712 sees the batteries are below 5°c that sends a 12V signal triggered by the BMV’s it’s built-in relay to the Remote on/off pins on the Dc to Dc charger ( via the Orion isolated remote on/off cable ) to tell the charger not to turn on even if the engine is running and the turn on voltage is sensed.
Regarding the start battery going flat it just because I had the van unlocked and open all day everyday whilst working on ( which runs down the battery ) and due to current covid restrictions i’ve not driven it more than a few miles in weeks. It’s been fine under under circumstances
General conditions it’s fine. I currently haven’t been driving the van at all due to lockdown restrictions over the last couple weeks. And it spends most of its day with its doors open and unlocked with me working on it which runs down the battery
Yo, still learning about DC to DC chargers, so the answer may be obvious. But my first instinct was whether the DC to DC could just be used in reverse to charge van battery from leisure system? Surely more efficient than DC to AC to DC? Maybe battery chemistry doesn't allow, or can DC to DC chargers not work both ways?
From a technical point you are correct, it would work exactly like that. After all that is DC to DC Charging . Swapping the wires around you could have the DC to DC charging the starter battery from the leisure battery. Practicality was the turn off for that idea. Having to unscrew each of those terminals to swap the cable from the Battery input to battery to the output is just a time-consuming and a bit of a delicate job. Since it’s only really going to be used for emergency situations the inefficiency of Dc to AC to DC wasn’t really a problem considering how easily it is just a unplug and replugged it in. Inefficiency numbers wise the 30amp charger running through the inverter use about 34amp overall. I did originally look for change over switches or something similar so I can do the DC to DC battery swap idea originally but couldn’t find anything. Some other brands of DC to Dc changer do you offer a reverse option
Long story short. You are correct. Swapping battery cables on the on DC to DC Charger is most power efficient but time-consuming and fiddly to do. DC to AC To DC via the wall charger. About 10% energy efficiency losses, but quick and simple. Which I see a worth while trade-off for a emergency feature
@@MispronouncedAdventures cool. Good to know. Although thinking now. A cable that just goes between both of those connectors would be the same as the "really long jumper cables" you say about. Although, again, not sure how safe it would be to just connect your leisure and van batteries with jumpers anyway. I really don't know enough about how nicely all these different battery types play together
I definitely see the angle you’re going for. That could definitely of also been a solution. But since I already had 16 mm cables run anyway I just piggybacked off them. It’s also probably healthier for my leisure batteries not to “Jump” the van as such. As jumping involves a huge amount of amps draw. Instead I’m just charging the starter battery up enough so it can turn the engine over on its own. A direct connection between a lead acid starter battery and my lithium batteries with their different voltages. Might not be great, not hundred percent sure how that would pan out.
Sorry another question, does your van have stop - start on it? I have just installed my DC - DC charger and noticed when I stop at lights take it out of gear and foot off clutch the engine turns off and guess what the DC - DC turns off!
Mine is without the start - stop feature. I’ve heard a few people on the Victron Facebook group or community forum talking about this particular issue you might be able to get a solution there. The it’s a shame there isn’t a software option in settings for a Delay shutdown voltage, as there is a delayed start up voltage option
Any hope of a fitting a simple old school battery isolator switch for the starter battery for prolonged parking, or is that going to induce Ford electronics catastrophe?
Probably just physically a bit of a pain to do since the starter battery is mounted underneath the drivers seat and physically there is almost 0 room for manoeuvering in that compartment to add anything. I think the electronics would be ok with it but the radio will probably need unlocked and the clock updated every time you turn it back on again
I’ve got a triple charger now, but I spend most of my winter living in the Arctic where there is no sun, so a solar one wouldn’t be particularly effective in my use case
I had never intended for this type of charger at the beginning of build. An all in one unit like a multiplus would’ve probably been easier if I had originally intended it, I never plan to go to sites or need hook up ( when I set it up probably ) but I’d now like the option too . I think my Victron Phoenix 1200VA inverter and this 30A charger still work out a bit under the price of a similar spec multiplus.
At the moment I’m working on it every day and have the doors open and the van unlocked most of that day and not driving it at all . It seems the vans brain / ECU is awake or something and doing something. That’s enough after a week of not being driven the doors open and unlock for 12 hours a day to drain the battery
I do have 500watts ( being in 90w at most this time of year ) solar as well but that’s only for charging the leisure battery, Not the van starter battery
@@MispronouncedAdventures Hey Alex great video again... was hoping Victron would bring out a Dc to Dc and Mppt charger combined so you could top off your starter battery from your solar as well have you heard of anything in the pipeline from Vitron community yourself? I see Renogy, Ring and Votronic (very good one but expensive) have versions out did you investigate these at all? I would be very interested what your thoughts were on this with your growing experience and expertise in the area... I was looking to maybe get something like this to avoid your current problem... any help is welcome... Thanks man
Hey, works very well as a solution but I would prefer something a bit more passive to keep the van battery charged up. Recently had the opportunity to sell my Victron Phoenix inverter to a friend and currently installing a Victron multiplus. The multiplus has a little-known secondary battery charger / 1A trickle charger. Which I’m looking at connecting to my starter battery.
Yeah I do. Seen there are two versions, When I was working on my friends MK8 I noticed his has the duel battery version. Mine on the other hand is the single battery version.
@@MispronouncedAdventures it’s a very simple conversion to fit the 2nd battery option. Basically a new battery, a Ford duel relay that bolts in to the fuse box and then coding them tell the body control module on the van that it now has a split / dual battery systems. This will mean you will never be able to flatten the starter battery and saves the need to install a charger.
Using my amp meters is seen what the issue is. When the van is unlocked and door opens it’s drawing about 1amp from that starter. Due to lock down I have been driving at all. Will me what working on it all day. I’m driving 10ah a day ish. Combine with a week or no drive driving it to charge that’s flattering it. I’ve made some changes after this video. Install a 1amp trickle charger and never had the issue since
No particular practical in my case. As my starter battery is lead acid-based whilst my leisure battery is are lithium batteries. They’ve got a vastly different charge voltages. My MPPT Controller is pretty smart so at the beginning of each day it checks its battery voltage to the estimate how long it should make it absorption charge cycle last and so on swapping batteries round would confuse it.
Bear in mind that your setup assumes that the engine start battery will be in a good shape when it gets flat in the middle of nowhere. If it's old or develops one bad cell you will be sitting there for hours charging it at 30A depleting the house batteries for nothing.
I would instead use this nice Victron 30A charger as a "shore power" being that you already have a DC-DC charger. Plug the Victron 30A on an external 220V wall outlet and charge the starter battery in conjunction with the house batteries via the DC-DC charger. If your engine start battery gets flat in the middle of nowhere then simply connecting the house batteries with the engine battery (via a 4 AWG or thicker wire and switch) will be charging the engine battery directly with no losses. Ideally you should also connect a 16.2V 500F Supercapacitors in parallel.
Going up to AC then down to DC again is quite inefficient. You might be better off with something like this: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BATTERY-CHARGER-48V-to-12V-STEP-DOWN-DC-DC-10AMP-120W-48V-12V-Battery-Charger-/330932593423 which if you found a better one I suspect can auto switch-on-and-off as well if needed. (random google search found it) You shouldnt attempt cranking with the charger you have connected (or something like the above), as if the van battery cannot supply the draw requested, it will attempt to draw from the charger potentially damaging it (source: instruction manual for 12v trickle charger i have) I agree running 100A 12v cabling all the way down the van to crank from the expensive house batteries you probably have is not a good idea.
Oh it definitely is inefficient, but that really doesn’t matter. Running a 30amp charger of the inverter costs about 34amp. The option for charging the start battery off the inverter starter is for emergencies. It only takes 10 minutes to put enough energy into the starter battery for the turnover, once the engine is started the DCDC Charger turns on which is 30 amp is it self. So that block energy is quickly regained the leisure system. The whole principle was didn’t want to buy any extra kit Just two cheap connectors.
In regard to this cranking the engine with the charger still attached. It’s something I looked into, it seems for this model of charger it is fine to do.
The main point was I didn’t need to buy another bit of kit, I was already adding the Victron charger normally for my leisure systems lithium batteries. So only cost £8 to buy some connectors to make the option to charge start battery if I needed as well
Ah Van earthing complicated sh1t. 101: your inverter ought to have it's neutral tied to it's earth regardless of whether you use shore power or not. This must be done upstream of the RCD. You can hurt people with an inverter almost as easily as with shore mains. The Inverter Chassis PE needs to be connected to the vehicle chassis and the inverter negative via the DC Bus with a CSA equal to one size smaller than the DC cable gauge to the inverter or largest onboard.. The DC bus and the AC Bus ought to be connected. All positives must be fused. The Inverter requires an RCD / RCBO etc... Shore power also requires an RCD /RCBO etc.. Seeing as you are rocking lithium the safety measures are a little dangerous. I effin' hate earthing lifepo4 because if you do the old connecting the positive terminal to the vehicle shell trick with a spanner they'll vapourise the spanner and maybe blow the internal BMS. I'd have an automatic split charge system feeding solar/mains/etc excess back to the engine battery. And an E-Start you can crank the engine over. You've an E-Charge system, not E-Start. Pretty complicated, I'd say. You can just link the batteries if you had the appropriate cable and switchgear, LFP will crank an engine no probs.
Yeah anything earthing related on Self built Campervan facebook groups usually ends up with a few hundred comments of bickering. As stated in the video the earthing areas a bit I am still researching. This model of Victron inverter has a “neutral floating” by default but can be changed via an internal plug shown in the manual to a by “Neutral connected to earth” All positives in my 12v system are fuse. And presumably all appliances plugged in AC are fused by default on the live in the plug. The charger was primary for charging the leisure batteries. The purpose of the emergency starter battery charging system. Was something which would have litter use but a nice feature to have so efficiency of it and time taken wasn’t a big concern. So happy to spend a few pounds on connectors to charger the battery for 10 minutes over trying to run a new set of the cables and crank The engine directly.
I'd say there's a handful on this planet can earth a liveaboard correctly in a failsafe manner. Floating an inverter ie. not linking the neutral to earth and or not installing an RCD means there's no life harm protection in the system and any faults that develop will be unflagged until there's an incident. If the chassis isn't earthed that means that if there is a fault then the person /creature becomes the conductor/fuse instead of the PE bond. I don't often do DC-DC (because I've used some 120A units and realised I can often get the same results with the cable and routing I installed it on) I install secondary alternators if needs be. It costs about the same as a DC-DC but instead of 30A then I can have 150A. If the vehicle isn't regen I can link them. I usually tie it all together over a system to send charge from the house battery to the engine battery also meaning that E-start is already there off the back of those systems. It helps immensely when it's one battery chemistry onboard.
It’s makes why are you can have the inverter in different configurations. Having the floating neutral if the inverter is only used as a single socket and the appliance plugged directly into the inverter you would be unlikely to electrocute yourself unless you physically connected with a positive & neutral. Whilst if your are using the inverter and then running a circuit of sockets throughout your van. You have increase the risk of a fault occurring with the chassis somewhere so changing the configuration to neutral linked to earth and via RCD would be the appropriate course of action for safety sake
The transfer relay you speak of is that way for boats and galvanic isolation. It's also useful for backfeeding boards from the wrong end which is incorrect and irresponsible. You can't really protect against a floating system, it's a nightmare. Most people just ignore the problem and get lucky. A floating system will work under fault. You have the exact same odds of a fault occurring against the chassis if you earth it or not. If it's earthed the supply can be isolated if you don't then it sits at a dangerous potential in widowmaker config. I had a client screw through a cable with his ply lining...the RCD did it's job and wouldn't let the inverter supply the end loads. If the system wasn't chassis earthed anyone touching the chassis could potentially have gotten hurt...repeatedly. Earth leakage protection is the responsible thing to do...everything fails eventually. Just remember the earth and the neutral are the same wire; one of them is allowed to conduct and one of them isn't. No point in Earthing if you don't use RCDs (RCBO is neater)..that's making it more dangerous. What trips up most people even the manufacturers is that the PE has to be gauged to carry a fault for DC too because that's another failure mode, in 12volt land that means 50mm² PE on 10A inverters... Now the pain in the hole is LFP because they're vicious little effer's. If you short a spanner against the chassis with a grounded chassis then the chances are the instantaneous current will be high enough to blow some serious mass off the spanner, burn your hand with the heat, and blow every FET in the internal BMS before the Fuse pops. FETs usually fail closed so it'll still be operational but you might not know about it and none of the protections will work. I was thinking about LFP efficiency, We have to reduce the charge rates according to temperature so they're not fast charging...I can push lead 4x harder in the same conditions and better below zero. They have passive balancers so embedded parasitic losses, they tell the chargers to throttle in cold weather which is super annoying and not fast charging and then the need heaters to mitigate this. I've not RTE measured LFP with a heater because I just won't escalate the -----------. It just doesn't add up.
Another reason for the switched PE-N link in your combi is because you want it connected as an inverter and open as a charger/through..it would trip the supply if the PE-N was connected in though mode.
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A simple and elegant solution.
I love the dark orange, dark blue, black and white colors.
Thank you. I know there are other bits of equipment which can solve the same issue but since I was having the charger anyway it seemed silly not to spend a few pennies on the connectors. I’m very much enjoying the colour theme as well! Currently in the process of painting all the cupboard doors the same dark blue
Nice backup solution! As you said the doors opening/closing/light coming on do kill the battery when not moving. May be unrelated for yourself but I noticed my reversing camera IR where glowing ever so slightly, thought it may have been something do with the radiation in them. After a week of not using the van over xmas completely flat and no glow. Different camera setup to yourself but wired the same as your video. Think ill need to swap my setup to ignition live or add a switch.
Cracking build aswell
Much appreciated! Yeah I’m pretty sure it is the opening and closing the doors all day every day and no driving. Ive got my reverse camera & screen which I’ve currently got unplugged as well just so it’s not draining power.
Ive just re fitted dual batteries in my Defender principally for operating my winch. I bought a 12 12 30 isolated Victron but cant find how to wire it to enable me to bypass it and get two lots of amps from my batteries for winching.
Thinking i may just parallel connect the two bateries and get one of these chargers to hard mount then run a cable from garage to the Defender and keep it on charge every time i am home. Thoughts?
If you do happen to have any dramas with regards to the Dc to DC switching on when the AC charger is charging the Starter battery, I believe the Orion has a little jumper pin thing on it that lets you run an ACC wire to it so it only turns on when it senses an ACC voltage + the set voltage number from the settings.
Loving your videos and the detail you go into its been great motivation for my build.
Also strangely satisfying seeing all the Victron items appear on the app like a nice little collection :P
Very true that is another option I could’ve used the remote on/off pins in the ignition live format. I’m currently using those pins for a low temperature charge cut off for the lithium batteries, so the Orion doesn’t start when the engine is turned on but the battery temperature is below 7°. This is done by using the low temperature trigger fire the relay on built into the BMV.
I found that the Orions automatic engine turn on detection feature don’t activate when the charger is plugged in, those photos and setting this can changed in settings too.
It is definitely quite stretchy satisfying seeing all the items appear in the app! I’ve got a Raspberry Pi running Victron’s Venus OS now so I can access some of the Victron kit via the app remotely!
Thank you very much and best of luck with your build!
Nice one Alex! I've got the same 30A Victron charger, but with the traditional site hookup through RCD setup. Completely hidden though coming under the doors.
Thank you. It’s a great charger. Yeah I will be doing a traditional Hook up with RCD to prevent the whole electrocuted in case of a fault thing. And a hidden hook up point
Now that you have the 30A charger, your DC-DC is basically redundant. You can now run the inverter directly from your alternator/starter and charge the house battery with the charger. It's not the most efficient way, but the alternator has more than enough capacity and the tiny losses are negligible. I run this scenario and just recently did a month long tour of the Australian outback with no problems at all. :-)
Not really redundant. The Dc to Dc charger is only one way. Powered by the starter battery ( when the engine is run ) to charge the leisure system.
The 30 amp charger is one way & powered via the inverter which is powered by the leisure system to charger starter battery in an emergency if I flattened the starter battery.
@@MispronouncedAdventures The combination of an inverter and a charger is exactly the same as a DC-DC converter (to be technical, that is exactly how it works inside the DC-DC converter, the dc is switched at high speed creating an ac pulse, that is fed into a transformer to change the voltage and then rectified back to DC). If you have Anderson plugs on both the Start battery/alternator feed and the house battery, then you just swap the direction so that the house battery is charging the starter battery. Your big advantage of now having an AC to DC charger is that you can now charge either of your batteries when camping at a powered site. 😃
Hey there, just ordered my Ford Transit! The dealer is trying to find a van in stock for me... No lucky on the 2nd hand front.
Have you heard / considered the CTEK DS250 + Smartpass 120S? From what I heard the Smartpass let’s you “combine” the two batteries, when the car is running (up to 120A charging!). The other thing it does is trickle charge the starter battery from the house battery, so you don’t get a flat battery... and the DS250 adds 20A and solar MPPT (up to 300W). And does the same, trickle the starter battery from the solar...
Yeah I do know the CTEK units, Great looking Units. I installed one in a friend of mine’s van. I had looked into them myself originally ( not with the SmartPass ) but I decide to go for which they Victron as I could build the System a bit more to my own specification. Since having 500watts of solar on the roof which has a VOC of three times what the CTek
unit could handle . since the rest of the equipment Im using is Victron they nicely all integrate into one app monitoring and customisation. however The trickle charge option which the CTek has is something I do wish my Victron B2B charger could do! The CTek is definitely a simpler solution for an electrical system and if it fits your criteria it will probably be perfect
Congratulations on the transit! I hope it arrives soon!
Hi Bud.. You only need the connection to the mains battery charger to the van battery, as the b2b will sense that the van is charging and then charge the leisure batteries as well..
99% of the time the mains charger is for Charging the leisure system, The added connection for the starter battery was just for emergencies/ flat battery scenario.
In this case I specifically set up the Engine detection feature on the B2B to a voltage higher than the bulk voltage change profile on charger to that avoid the scenario of the B2B turning on. If the 30amp B2B charger turns on, when the 30amp charged is attached that defeats the purpose of charging the starter battery in an emergency/flat starter battery scenario of the inverter.
OK. have you found out what is flattening the van battery...?
Annoying habit with new model Transit MK8, transit Customs & transit Connects. Upon opening a door or being unlock The body control module is awake and during power. Normally not an issue in normal use, But when you’re still building the van and the van is generally unlocked and you’re going in and out of it all day that drain is always there, and being lockdown is not being driven hardly at all to recharger it
WOW.. didn't think it would do that.. I have spent all day today watching all your van build video's, you have done well with it.. I would just like to ask..? I have fitted no end of the victron b2b's, unless you use an ignition sense, when you connect any type of battery charger to charge the van battery it will take the voltage up and the victron b2b thinks the van engine is running and will start to charge the leisure batteries.
But well done on the build, love it. well all but the bed.. Haaha
Depending on how you set up Victron B2B. You can used a ignition live to the remote L/H pin on the use a physical connection to turn the Dc to Dc charger on and off with the engine ( I don’t use this ) , or you can use the software-based automated engine detection which works off van’s system voltage. I used the software based Engine detection which work of looking for a ( user defined ) voltage of 13.9v to believe the engine is running. My smart mains charger on the other hand I have my charge profile set with the bulk/absorption voltage set to reach 13.85V. So with the mains charger attached to the a starter battery to charge it if its flat the DC to DC charger won’t turn on as it will only turn on when the System voltage reaches 13.9v, which is impossible for the mains charger to do so as I limited it to a Max of 13.85v. Obviously when I actually do turn the engine over the alternator is kicking out 14v+ so then the DC to DC Charger turns on like I would want it to.
I actually use the L/H pins on the DCDC Charger as a low temperature charge cut off for protecting my lithium batteries. if my Victron BMV-712 sees the batteries are below 5°c that sends a 12V signal triggered by the BMV’s it’s built-in relay to the Remote on/off pins on the Dc to Dc charger ( via the Orion isolated remote on/off cable ) to tell the charger not to turn on even if the engine is running and the turn on voltage is sensed.
What is the cause of the batter going flat? Lead batteries do not like going flat after a few low (11 volts) it will just loose change.
Regarding the start battery going flat it just because I had the van unlocked and open all day everyday whilst working on ( which runs down the battery ) and due to current covid restrictions i’ve not driven it more than a few miles in weeks. It’s been fine under under circumstances
Sounds like you need a new starter battery if it keeps discharging....🤙🏻
General conditions it’s fine. I currently haven’t been driving the van at all due to lockdown restrictions over the last couple weeks. And it spends most of its day with its doors open and unlocked with me working on it which runs down the battery
Yo, still learning about DC to DC chargers, so the answer may be obvious. But my first instinct was whether the DC to DC could just be used in reverse to charge van battery from leisure system? Surely more efficient than DC to AC to DC? Maybe battery chemistry doesn't allow, or can DC to DC chargers not work both ways?
From a technical point you are correct, it would work exactly like that. After all that is DC to DC Charging . Swapping the wires around you could have the DC to DC charging the starter battery from the leisure battery. Practicality was the turn off for that idea. Having to unscrew each of those terminals to swap the cable from the Battery input to battery to the output is just a time-consuming and a bit of a delicate job. Since it’s only really going to be used for emergency situations the inefficiency of Dc to AC to DC wasn’t really a problem considering how easily it is just a unplug and replugged it in. Inefficiency numbers wise the 30amp charger running through the inverter use about 34amp overall.
I did originally look for change over switches or something similar so I can do the DC to DC battery swap idea originally but couldn’t find anything. Some other brands of DC to Dc changer do you offer a reverse option
Long story short.
You are correct. Swapping battery cables on the on DC to DC Charger is most power efficient but time-consuming and fiddly to do.
DC to AC To DC via the wall charger. About 10% energy efficiency losses, but quick and simple. Which I see a worth while trade-off for a emergency feature
@@MispronouncedAdventures cool. Good to know. Although thinking now. A cable that just goes between both of those connectors would be the same as the "really long jumper cables" you say about. Although, again, not sure how safe it would be to just connect your leisure and van batteries with jumpers anyway. I really don't know enough about how nicely all these different battery types play together
I definitely see the angle you’re going for. That could definitely of also been a solution. But since I already had 16 mm cables run anyway I just piggybacked off them.
It’s also probably healthier for my leisure batteries not to “Jump” the van as such. As jumping involves a huge amount of amps draw. Instead I’m just charging the starter battery up enough so it can turn the engine over on its own.
A direct connection between a lead acid starter battery and my lithium batteries with their different voltages. Might not be great, not hundred percent sure how that would pan out.
Sorry another question, does your van have stop - start on it? I have just installed my DC - DC charger and noticed when I stop at lights take it out of gear and foot off clutch the engine turns off and guess what the DC - DC turns off!
Mine is without the start - stop feature. I’ve heard a few people on the Victron Facebook group or community forum talking about this particular issue you might be able to get a solution there. The it’s a shame there isn’t a software option in settings for a Delay shutdown voltage, as there is a delayed start up voltage option
Any hope of a fitting a simple old school battery isolator switch for the starter battery for prolonged parking, or is that going to induce Ford electronics catastrophe?
Probably just physically a bit of a pain to do since the starter battery is mounted underneath the drivers seat and physically there is almost 0 room for manoeuvering in that compartment to add anything. I think the electronics would be ok with it but the radio will probably need unlocked and the clock updated every time you turn it back on again
connect to your solar , another solarcharger, witch loads the van battery. much easier. made so in my transit..always 100 & :-)
I’ve got a triple charger now, but I spend most of my winter living in the Arctic where there is no sun, so a solar one wouldn’t be particularly effective in my use case
Where did u get the thermal window covers from? Great vids btw
Was in not easier to get a Victron Multiplus?
I had never intended for this type of charger at the beginning of build. An all in one unit like a multiplus would’ve probably been easier if I had originally intended it, I never plan to go to sites or need hook up ( when I set it up probably ) but I’d now like the option too
. I think my Victron Phoenix 1200VA inverter and this 30A charger still work out a bit under the price of a similar spec multiplus.
@@MispronouncedAdventures Fair enough....things change as you get through a build...good stuff !!!
Definitely in my case, a fixed idea at the start is definitely not what happened!
How did you manage to flatten the vehicle battery? You have solar as well don't you?
At the moment I’m working on it every day and have the doors open and the van unlocked most of that day and not driving it at all . It seems the vans brain / ECU is awake or something and doing something. That’s enough after a week of not being driven the doors open and unlock for 12 hours a day to drain the battery
I do have 500watts ( being in 90w at most this time of year ) solar as well but that’s only for charging the leisure battery, Not the van starter battery
When I’m actually living in it full-time and driving most days I don’t see this going to be an issue with flattening the battery
@@MispronouncedAdventures Hey Alex great video again... was hoping Victron would bring out a Dc to Dc and Mppt charger combined so you could top off your starter battery from your solar as well have you heard of anything in the pipeline from Vitron community yourself? I see Renogy, Ring and Votronic (very good one but expensive) have versions out did you investigate these at all? I would be very interested what your thoughts were on this with your growing experience and expertise in the area... I was looking to maybe get something like this to avoid your current problem... any help is welcome... Thanks man
Hey, works very well as a solution but I would prefer something a bit more passive to keep the van battery charged up. Recently had the opportunity to sell my Victron Phoenix inverter to a friend and currently installing a Victron multiplus. The multiplus has a little-known secondary battery charger / 1A trickle charger. Which I’m looking at connecting to my starter battery.
Ido you know the transit mk8 has 2 starter batteries to ensure you never go flat
Yeah I do. Seen there are two versions, When I was working on my friends MK8 I noticed his has the duel battery version. Mine on the other hand is the single battery version.
@@MispronouncedAdventures it’s a very simple conversion to fit the 2nd battery option. Basically a new battery, a Ford duel relay that bolts in to the fuse box and then coding them tell the body control module on the van that it now has a split / dual battery systems. This will mean you will never be able to flatten the starter battery and saves the need to install a charger.
Ooooh I like that
yay
If you flatten the starter battery that much. I guess you are ready for a lithium starter battery.
Using my amp meters is seen what the issue is. When the van is unlocked and door opens it’s drawing about 1amp from that starter. Due to lock down I have been driving at all. Will me what working on it all day. I’m driving 10ah a day ish. Combine with a week or no drive driving it to charge that’s flattering it. I’ve made some changes after this video. Install a 1amp trickle charger and never had the issue since
Mispronounced adventures, Just wondering why you didnt hook up the solar to charge the vehicle battery as well???
No particular practical in my case. As my starter battery is lead acid-based whilst my leisure battery is are lithium batteries. They’ve got a vastly different charge voltages. My MPPT Controller is pretty smart so at the beginning of each day it checks its battery voltage to the estimate how long it should make it absorption charge cycle last and so on swapping batteries round would confuse it.
Bear in mind that your setup assumes that the engine start battery will be in a good shape when it gets flat in the middle of nowhere. If it's old or develops one bad cell you will be sitting there for hours charging it at 30A depleting the house batteries for nothing.
I would instead use this nice Victron 30A charger as a "shore power" being that you already have a DC-DC charger. Plug the Victron 30A on an external 220V wall outlet and charge the starter battery in conjunction with the house batteries via the DC-DC charger.
If your engine start battery gets flat in the middle of nowhere then simply connecting the house batteries with the engine battery (via a 4 AWG or thicker wire and switch) will be charging the engine battery directly with no losses. Ideally you should also connect a 16.2V 500F Supercapacitors in parallel.
Going up to AC then down to DC again is quite inefficient. You might be better off with something like this: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BATTERY-CHARGER-48V-to-12V-STEP-DOWN-DC-DC-10AMP-120W-48V-12V-Battery-Charger-/330932593423 which if you found a better one I suspect can auto switch-on-and-off as well if needed. (random google search found it)
You shouldnt attempt cranking with the charger you have connected (or something like the above), as if the van battery cannot supply the draw requested, it will attempt to draw from the charger potentially damaging it (source: instruction manual for 12v trickle charger i have)
I agree running 100A 12v cabling all the way down the van to crank from the expensive house batteries you probably have is not a good idea.
Oh it definitely is inefficient, but that really doesn’t matter. Running a 30amp charger of the inverter costs about 34amp. The option for charging the start battery off the inverter starter is for emergencies. It only takes 10 minutes to put enough energy into the starter battery for the turnover, once the engine is started the DCDC Charger turns on which is 30 amp is it self. So that block energy is quickly regained the leisure system. The whole principle was didn’t want to buy any extra kit Just two cheap connectors.
In regard to this cranking the engine with the charger still attached. It’s something I looked into, it seems for this model of charger it is fine to do.
@@MispronouncedAdventures wow that is actually quite good. Impressed thought it would be higher
Can't see the point, just buy a noco lithium power pack...that s what I have as a back jump start
The main point was I didn’t need to buy another bit of kit, I was already adding the Victron charger normally for my leisure systems lithium batteries. So only cost £8 to buy some connectors to make the option to charge start battery if I needed as well
Ah Van earthing complicated sh1t.
101: your inverter ought to have it's neutral tied to it's earth regardless of whether you use shore power or not. This must be done upstream of the RCD. You can hurt people with an inverter almost as easily as with shore mains.
The Inverter Chassis PE needs to be connected to the vehicle chassis and the inverter negative via the DC Bus with a CSA equal to one size smaller than the DC cable gauge to the inverter or largest onboard..
The DC bus and the AC Bus ought to be connected.
All positives must be fused.
The Inverter requires an RCD / RCBO etc...
Shore power also requires an RCD /RCBO etc..
Seeing as you are rocking lithium the safety measures are a little dangerous. I effin' hate earthing lifepo4 because if you do the old connecting the positive terminal to the vehicle shell trick with a spanner they'll vapourise the spanner and maybe blow the internal BMS.
I'd have an automatic split charge system feeding solar/mains/etc excess back to the engine battery. And an E-Start you can crank the engine over.
You've an E-Charge system, not E-Start. Pretty complicated, I'd say. You can just link the batteries if you had the appropriate cable and switchgear, LFP will crank an engine no probs.
Yeah anything earthing related on Self built Campervan facebook groups usually ends up with a few hundred comments of bickering.
As stated in the video the earthing areas a bit I am still researching.
This model of Victron inverter has a “neutral floating” by default but can be changed via an internal plug shown in the manual to a by “Neutral connected to earth”
All positives in my 12v system are fuse. And presumably all appliances plugged in AC are fused by default on the live in the plug.
The charger was primary for charging the leisure batteries. The purpose of the emergency starter battery charging system. Was something which would have litter use but a nice feature to have so efficiency of it and time taken wasn’t a big concern. So happy to spend a few pounds on connectors to charger the battery for 10 minutes over trying to run a new set of the cables and crank The engine directly.
I'd say there's a handful on this planet can earth a liveaboard correctly in a failsafe manner.
Floating an inverter ie. not linking the neutral to earth and or not installing an RCD means there's no life harm protection in the system and any faults that develop will be unflagged until there's an incident.
If the chassis isn't earthed that means that if there is a fault then the person /creature becomes the conductor/fuse instead of the PE bond.
I don't often do DC-DC (because I've used some 120A units and realised I can often get the same results with the cable and routing I installed it on) I install secondary alternators if needs be. It costs about the same as a DC-DC but instead of 30A then I can have 150A. If the vehicle isn't regen I can link them.
I usually tie it all together over a system to send charge from the house battery to the engine battery also meaning that E-start is already there off the back of those systems.
It helps immensely when it's one battery chemistry onboard.
It’s makes why are you can have the inverter in different configurations. Having the floating neutral if the inverter is only used as a single socket and the appliance plugged directly into the inverter you would be unlikely to electrocute yourself unless you physically connected with a positive & neutral. Whilst if your are using the inverter and then running a circuit of sockets throughout your van. You have increase the risk of a fault occurring with the chassis somewhere so changing the configuration to neutral linked to earth and via RCD would be the appropriate course of action for safety sake
The transfer relay you speak of is that way for boats and galvanic isolation. It's also useful for backfeeding boards from the wrong end which is incorrect and irresponsible.
You can't really protect against a floating system, it's a nightmare. Most people just ignore the problem and get lucky. A floating system will work under fault.
You have the exact same odds of a fault occurring against the chassis if you earth it or not. If it's earthed the supply can be isolated if you don't then it sits at a dangerous potential in widowmaker config. I had a client screw through a cable with his ply lining...the RCD did it's job and wouldn't let the inverter supply the end loads. If the system wasn't chassis earthed anyone touching the chassis could potentially have gotten hurt...repeatedly.
Earth leakage protection is the responsible thing to do...everything fails eventually.
Just remember the earth and the neutral are the same wire; one of them is allowed to conduct and one of them isn't.
No point in Earthing if you don't use RCDs (RCBO is neater)..that's making it more dangerous.
What trips up most people even the manufacturers is that the PE has to be gauged to carry a fault for DC too because that's another failure mode, in 12volt land that means 50mm² PE on 10A inverters...
Now the pain in the hole is LFP because they're vicious little effer's. If you short a spanner against the chassis with a grounded chassis then the chances are the instantaneous current will be high enough to blow some serious mass off the spanner, burn your hand with the heat, and blow every FET in the internal BMS before the Fuse pops. FETs usually fail closed so it'll still be operational but you might not know about it and none of the protections will work.
I was thinking about LFP efficiency, We have to reduce the charge rates according to temperature so they're not fast charging...I can push lead 4x harder in the same conditions and better below zero. They have passive balancers so embedded parasitic losses, they tell the chargers to throttle in cold weather which is super annoying and not fast charging and then the need heaters to mitigate this.
I've not RTE measured LFP with a heater because I just won't escalate the -----------. It just doesn't add up.
Another reason for the switched PE-N link in your combi is because you want it connected as an inverter and open as a charger/through..it would trip the supply if the PE-N was connected in though mode.