if you play any big hitbox hero the game just stops being fun and i let them take tower , back in the day the guys flying in the skybox shooting everyone while they cannot be shot back were cheaters , they need to make all characters left clicks have the same dmg fall off range of like 30 meters , but snipers when they are aiming can shoot further away but with slower firing speed . its impossible to make shogun characters have any fun vs snipers in lane in the current way it works
@@MrRafagigapr I just found out that she gets spirit damage added onto her gun just by being in the air, that’s a 1.5x dmg buff and being impervious to over half the roster
@@mirramig Lmao she is definitely not open given most weapons and abilities in the game have high damage fall-off and she can just fly out of the range.
Its so hard to actually counter her, so many times I've gotten her low she falls to the ground I think I have her and then she is able to fly up again despite being on the ground for like 3-5 seconds. She luckily isn't as oppressive as Grey Talon is early lane though, solo Vindicta early lane is okay for certain heros because she doesn't have all her abilities up yet. Where as Grey Talon you just can't do much against him as certain heros and if you try to you will just take too much damage from his charge shots and floating shots and risk dying. He is way too good at chipping away at you from afar.
he's very potent in lane and he mentioned that a ton, however his potency in lane comes from his lethality & displacement which paradox has more of later in game.
@@shnitzel9052 if he gets solo lane, he gets fucked after hooking someone like pocket, shiv. I intentionally get myself hooked as pocket and shiv in solo lanes.
@@shnitzel9052 He also falls off hard late game. Had a game where Bebop was dominating lane, but we held off until we all got our core items and then rolled him.
Yall must be building Ginnis wrong cause I can solo every objective in 10s or less including patron. Shes so easy to just hard stomp objectives. Objective Damage build makes it where you can destroy guardians, Walkers, miniboss and patron faster than someone can rotate. She is a Macro-game hero, not Micro-game.
because she doesn't fit into any comp over just being a splitpusher which doesn't mean shit in high mmr because people don't fall for splitpush tactics.
Ngl I don't think Abrams being parry-able after charge and ult is even a nerf. Before you'd get punched and have 1s to get out of melee range, now you're put in this nasty position where you either mash parry and hope they punch, or they don't punch and they get to dump their clip into, and now they can punch you basically twice for free as you sit there motionless. Obviously guaranteed damage is great but being able to force a mistake is really powerful.
@@Dew-b8b read original post he explained it well , now you have a choice to make. And if you mess up it’s more punishable than getting hit once, imagine you messing up your parry because you had less time to make a choice now you’re screwed , before you take the first hit and now you’re ready for second to parry , than kill him , now you gotta guess what he’s doing if you mess up he’s hitting you more than the one time because now you have no block cool down
Yeah when I saw shiv I insta knew he was broken because of his blood letting if you have ever played path of exile there's a flask called prognosis and that makes anything tanky having incoming damage as dot is so fucking strong
I think he may be a bit biased against Lash lmao. Yea he’s defo up there but that’s for his ult, movement, cc and borderline infinite hp when flog is fully scaled. His gun is weaker than most top compensate for his very high impact abilities
Agree. Lash gun was JUST nerfed so either this guy is being disingenuous, doesnt read patch notes, or recorded this before the patch and still posted it anyway
Lash's spirit build was already better than his weapon build in most cases even before the nerf. Now spirit lash is just definitively better. I dont see any high mmr lash players go weapon anymore. Everyone just plays spirit. The point of the nerf was to tone down his gun damage in spirit builds, not really to nerf weapon builds. His gun was dealing too much without investing deep into weapon items, so they hit his bullet growth.
McGinnis isn't bad. Her players are. Turret is good wave pressure, she has a heal, and a powerful isolation/team saving tool on a basic ability, and it can stun. People who play her are just bad at utilizing these tools to their fullest extent.
2:30 As an Ivy main I sort of agree she is much better balanced but I will say if she is able to get in the lead with souls she can still tear house. I have a really good build for her that I've been experimenting with and I was getting high souls Haze levels of damage with absurd healing from leech. She is also the best hero for taking down guardians, walkers and shrines in the mid-late stages, her dps combined with her clip size plus her ability to just get out of bad situations if you react in time makes her the best hero for hit and run attacks while the enemy team is distracted with team fights. I'm sure people will eventually realize this as the meta develops.
Just wanna ask why Abrams was swapped with Pocket? Abrams can be countered by any heal reduction item like healbane, toxic bullets or decay (btw you can choose what type of slot you want to use for utility item), while Pocket counters are more expensive - silence glyph or curse and still is hard to catch him. Is Pocket really weaker than Abram?
@@andrewvetovitz6804 I think the comment is referring to the double bomb one press macro. Bebop does things that paradox does on lower cooldown though, and double bomb is super counterable
I have no fucking clue why they nerfed Talon, literally one of the more skilled heroes to use with the Guided Arrow and that's the one fun thing about him they nerfed. Such a waste, he was never broken with it...he was ok or pretty decent at best. Now he is all gun build and it's so fucking boring
Honestly i think bebop should be higher, hes the character who ive struggled vs the most and ive seen him literally 1v5 games, his spirit modifiers and bomb damage is absurdly too high
mcginnis is becoming very good imo. People are figuring out how to make her not useless plus she just got sizeable buffs. Her turrets can be very oppressive with the right build, and she does a huge amount of mixed damage once she gets going. Something I've noticed is that good mcginnis's don't use their ult nearly as much. Her base gun is better in a lot of cases. A good mcginnis will force you to take bad fights with her wall. What makes a good mcginnis strong is that she purposely makes the fight you take with her unfair if you want to try and kill her. And if you dont fight her she will just endlessly farm and push. Think heimerdinger or illaoi from league if you've ever played, they can be oppressive in the right hands and definitely aren't just "low elo stompers". They literally already did the things you mentioned about Lash but idk if this video was recorded before the patch. His bullet growth was reduced by 22% which is a LOT. Increased his ability 1 scaling by 7% in return.
bomb build is rough cause u need to hit the right player and the payoff is one kill. If bebop is fed you can just build debuff remover which removes the disarm and the bomb itself which is impossible to deal with. At least with haze, you are majorly AoE and just because they buy metal skin doesnt mean you can't hit other people too during the ult, and thats considered a hard counter. Bebops bombs literally just disappear with debuff remover which is all of his damage. (which is why beam build is better as vegas mentions)
Only if the opponent team is trash if they know how to fight you would have to way until lategame and his ult became more of a team control but by himself can't kill no one. It is versatile but no the best on any category. I'm main seven
As long as I'm on Grey Talon, I fear nobody on this list, especially Vindicta. You parry Abrams, you affect him psychologically, Haze? Please... you ult me. I fly up, trap you. 2 charged shots and you're dead. Shiv? You gotta come close to me first and by the time I ALLOW you to you're dead. Bebop's grapple, Kevin's slow are really the only two things I have in mind in a game. The biggest challenge for me is when i'm in a lane against a smart Paradox.
99.9% perfect tier list except I'd move Yamato up a single tier to A- simply for the fact that she can take a game over and be an extreme menace if she's item gapping people
Playing against a good vindicta this patch is so unbearably unfun
if you play any big hitbox hero the game just stops being fun and i let them take tower , back in the day the guys flying in the skybox shooting everyone while they cannot be shot back were cheaters , they need to make all characters left clicks have the same dmg fall off range of like 30 meters , but snipers when they are aiming can shoot further away but with slower firing speed . its impossible to make shogun characters have any fun vs snipers in lane in the current way it works
@@MrRafagigapr I just found out that she gets spirit damage added onto her gun just by being in the air, that’s a 1.5x dmg buff and being impervious to over half the roster
@@colpekkerwhile being a very open and easy target
@@mirramig how is she a open target, she is 40 meters away behind 3 people firing while she takes 80% less dmg because of dmg fall off
@@mirramig Lmao she is definitely not open given most weapons and abilities in the game have high damage fall-off and she can just fly out of the range.
They need to remove vindicta flying duration scaling with spirit power. It's so annoying when she has permanent uptime.
Its so hard to actually counter her, so many times I've gotten her low she falls to the ground I think I have her and then she is able to fly up again despite being on the ground for like 3-5 seconds.
She luckily isn't as oppressive as Grey Talon is early lane though, solo Vindicta early lane is okay for certain heros because she doesn't have all her abilities up yet. Where as Grey Talon you just can't do much against him as certain heros and if you try to you will just take too much damage from his charge shots and floating shots and risk dying.
He is way too good at chipping away at you from afar.
@@Yushe_ Lash is a good counter late as he can stay up next to her and even cancel her flight.
@@Yushe_gotta get knockdown if she is good there really is no other way
It's true we should make the game more boring so that people stop playing....
Yep vindicta has turned into an attack helicopter , kinda impossible to tale down unless we have anti air stuff
lash main and personally i love that vindicta is always flying around cause i get to ult her and fly swatter her into the ground
What if she buys counters?@@masonfoster7954
@@masonfoster7954 yes is really satisfying to do that , but we still need anti aircraft stuffXD
@@kaiserdarkangel ya truuuu can’t wait for more hero’s to come out.
I just use wraiths cards and gun to take her down
I understand why you say that that paradox is better bebop, but holy fuck does bebop poss me off more. Even his sound effects are annoying
THE DOUBLE BEEP SOUND HAHAHAHAHA
he's very potent in lane and he mentioned that a ton, however his potency in lane comes from his lethality & displacement which paradox has more of later in game.
@@shnitzel9052 if he gets solo lane, he gets fucked after hooking someone like pocket, shiv. I intentionally get myself hooked as pocket and shiv in solo lanes.
@@shnitzel9052 He also falls off hard late game. Had a game where Bebop was dominating lane, but we held off until we all got our core items and then rolled him.
@@spinyslasher6586 are you dumb? Bebop is literally one of the best if not the best at scaling. Bro click his ult and bye bye team, hello full hp
"You're never mad with an infernus on your team"
Tell that to the litany of 0/14/5 Infernuses that are my waking nightmare.
Yall must be building Ginnis wrong cause I can solo every objective in 10s or less including patron. Shes so easy to just hard stomp objectives. Objective Damage build makes it where you can destroy guardians, Walkers, miniboss and patron faster than someone can rotate. She is a Macro-game hero, not Micro-game.
Her rank is more of a reflection of bad players than low power.
because she doesn't fit into any comp over just being a splitpusher which doesn't mean shit in high mmr because people don't fall for splitpush tactics.
Ngl I don't think Abrams being parry-able after charge and ult is even a nerf. Before you'd get punched and have 1s to get out of melee range, now you're put in this nasty position where you either mash parry and hope they punch, or they don't punch and they get to dump their clip into, and now they can punch you basically twice for free as you sit there motionless. Obviously guaranteed damage is great but being able to force a mistake is really powerful.
Mixups, sounds solid to me
A mixup is nowhere near as strong as a guarantee
@@Dew-b8b read original post he explained it well , now you have a choice to make. And if you mess up it’s more punishable than getting hit once, imagine you messing up your parry because you had less time to make a choice now you’re screwed , before you take the first hit and now you’re ready for second to parry , than kill him , now you gotta guess what he’s doing if you mess up he’s hitting you more than the one time because now you have no block cool down
@@iph2 let me simplify it for you, if you suck you suck
Yeah when I saw shiv I insta knew he was broken because of his blood letting if you have ever played path of exile there's a flask called prognosis and that makes anything tanky having incoming damage as dot is so fucking strong
I think he may be a bit biased against Lash lmao. Yea he’s defo up there but that’s for his ult, movement, cc and borderline infinite hp when flog is fully scaled. His gun is weaker than most top compensate for his very high impact abilities
he is malding very hard with Pocket, Lash, Shiv lol
Agree. Lash gun was JUST nerfed so either this guy is being disingenuous, doesnt read patch notes, or recorded this before the patch and still posted it anyway
@@deliquentOfficial Or his weapon build is still just really good?
Lash's spirit build was already better than his weapon build in most cases even before the nerf. Now spirit lash is just definitively better. I dont see any high mmr lash players go weapon anymore. Everyone just plays spirit. The point of the nerf was to tone down his gun damage in spirit builds, not really to nerf weapon builds. His gun was dealing too much without investing deep into weapon items, so they hit his bullet growth.
@@deliquentOfficial Vindicta also was nerfed on gun dmg... so now she is weak? :3
the way the video starts, knew it was some gold.
McGinnis isn't bad. Her players are. Turret is good wave pressure, she has a heal, and a powerful isolation/team saving tool on a basic ability, and it can stun. People who play her are just bad at utilizing these tools to their fullest extent.
Sssshhh if everyone keeps putting her bottom tier then I get to play her more when no one wants to pick her
@@vicuna9083this
so you dont want Mcginnis to get buffed because you think she is strong, but you also think she is the worst? like which is it?
He’s biased that’s what he was saying - he doesn’t like the character at all just he can’t actually place it
L take and a L list tbh
@@DOL0ttvur low
This tier list literally got flipped 1 month later. Good to see valve not afraid to make changes
2:30 As an Ivy main I sort of agree she is much better balanced but I will say if she is able to get in the lead with souls she can still tear house.
I have a really good build for her that I've been experimenting with and I was getting high souls Haze levels of damage with absurd healing from leech. She is also the best hero for taking down guardians, walkers and shrines in the mid-late stages, her dps combined with her clip size plus her ability to just get out of bad situations if you react in time makes her the best hero for hit and run attacks while the enemy team is distracted with team fights.
I'm sure people will eventually realize this as the meta develops.
You can parry Abrams ult???
Just wanna ask why Abrams was swapped with Pocket? Abrams can be countered by any heal reduction item like healbane, toxic bullets or decay (btw you can choose what type of slot you want to use for utility item), while Pocket counters are more expensive - silence glyph or curse and still is hard to catch him. Is Pocket really weaker than Abram?
Shiv so broken 😂😂
I think you sleep on Yamato. Late game refresher combos can do 30-40k damage and she’s unkillable for almost 15 seconds.
Lady Geist is slept on
Shes literally insane bruh not even building into her 1 shes so good
Shes so mid unfortunately
You get a sub for this! Great analysis
Think they fixed the worst of the vindicta flight exploits in last minor patch
Bebop in B is wild. Bro can go 0-15 in lane and one shot your whole team with a button press.
I'm pretty sure he said its B tier without orbital beam build
@@andrewvetovitz6804 I think the comment is referring to the double bomb one press macro. Bebop does things that paradox does on lower cooldown though, and double bomb is super counterable
@@andrewvetovitz6804 What other build do bebops ever go?? It’s like always the ult build
His kit is easy to counter with a few items, and he falls off hard late game.
Bebop is only oppressive when fed imo
Updated Grey Talon guide / build?
Lefaa and hydration have haze in S
I have no fucking clue why they nerfed Talon, literally one of the more skilled heroes to use with the Guided Arrow and that's the one fun thing about him they nerfed. Such a waste, he was never broken with it...he was ok or pretty decent at best. Now he is all gun build and it's so fucking boring
I havent played a whole lot but I've played enough and I've yet to see a Moe N Krill
Me watching pocket move up in your tier list this patch after having all of their items get nerfed and their damage amp be reduced😮
Honestly i think bebop should be higher, hes the character who ive struggled vs the most and ive seen him literally 1v5 games, his spirit modifiers and bomb damage is absurdly too high
Only good against noobs
mcginnis is becoming very good imo. People are figuring out how to make her not useless plus she just got sizeable buffs. Her turrets can be very oppressive with the right build, and she does a huge amount of mixed damage once she gets going. Something I've noticed is that good mcginnis's don't use their ult nearly as much. Her base gun is better in a lot of cases. A good mcginnis will force you to take bad fights with her wall. What makes a good mcginnis strong is that she purposely makes the fight you take with her unfair if you want to try and kill her. And if you dont fight her she will just endlessly farm and push. Think heimerdinger or illaoi from league if you've ever played, they can be oppressive in the right hands and definitely aren't just "low elo stompers".
They literally already did the things you mentioned about Lash but idk if this video was recorded before the patch. His bullet growth was reduced by 22% which is a LOT. Increased his ability 1 scaling by 7% in return.
Can i ask for a item tier list video?
Im waiting for you to create more build guides
someone know the best biuld vindicta?
Funny how everyones tier list is so different.
I might be retarded but bebop is OP in my opinion...like at least A tier. Those disarmed hook bombs are just fucked idk what to do
bomb build is rough cause u need to hit the right player and the payoff is one kill. If bebop is fed you can just build debuff remover which removes the disarm and the bomb itself which is impossible to deal with.
At least with haze, you are majorly AoE and just because they buy metal skin doesnt mean you can't hit other people too during the ult, and thats considered a hard counter. Bebops bombs literally just disappear with debuff remover which is all of his damage. (which is why beam build is better as vegas mentions)
debuff remover, ethereal shift, spirit armor, unstoppable are all just hard counters. i hate him too but realistically he isn't that strong
Bro wtf is happening with tier lists lmao what happened to A B C D F
S A+ A- B C 🤣
At this point lets just make it S++ S+ S S- S--
It just means most characters are good.
You the list is trash when you don’t see S,A,B,C,D
Seven is pretty bad is wild to day but ok i respect your opinion
Plays broken S tier characters like Viscous and Kelvin and puts them in A tier. Lmao
Why all B and C are OP in my game???😂😂😂
Noobstomp characters
McGinnis is OP 😅 sure mate
Skill issue
low mmr
Yep im noob losers. Go spend 227252hr of ur life for game
I'm sorry but lash is like B for average players an A tier for one tricks main
seven does a f ton of damage
Only if the opponent team is trash if they know how to fight you would have to way until lategame and his ult became more of a team control but by himself can't kill no one. It is versatile but no the best on any category. I'm main seven
It seems you haven't been fuck up by mcginneis😂
that champ is op
Shes not op lol
As long as I'm on Grey Talon, I fear nobody on this list, especially Vindicta. You parry Abrams, you affect him psychologically, Haze? Please... you ult me. I fly up, trap you. 2 charged shots and you're dead. Shiv? You gotta come close to me first and by the time I ALLOW you to you're dead. Bebop's grapple, Kevin's slow are really the only two things I have in mind in a game. The biggest challenge for me is when i'm in a lane against a smart Paradox.
Bebop main here. We dont grapple, we just laser your pussy ass out of the sky.
As a vindicta main, grey talons are the bane of my existence
@@leugim8435 playing a fun hero is the bane of your lameass existence
I hope ur fly gets nerfed
@@gabriel7932 That's ok because I use it as an escape move.
"High mmr".... Sure buddy. There's no public mmr known but sure...
99.9% perfect tier list except I'd move Yamato up a single tier to A- simply for the fact that she can take a game over and be an extreme menace if she's item gapping people
Honestly Kelvin is still S :')
Yamato B tier ? This RUclipsr doesn’t want you guys to know…
Timestampsss :P
Oi Just To Let U know Paradox Is A Girl Just Saying
Bruh nobody plays lash for his gun dmg...
Except alot of high tiers did that’s why it just got nerfed recently
yes thats what hes saying, high rank players just put a couple of cheap items into gun and it still does crazy damage is what hes trying to tell u
Bebop death star only work in shit stain elo where ppl cant get out of the splash a lose LOS 😂
No it's good in high mmr on coordinated teams because it brings so much to the game winning fight
anyone who played and knows how to play mcginnis knows shes s+, no point making tier guides if you don't know how to play the characters.