I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "Traditional Catholicism". Did the Church get it wrong all the way up to about 1900 and then finally figured it out, or is it rather that modern trads have the wrong understanding of what the Church was before about 1900?
Traddery is something of a retreat from the modern world (not necessarily a bad thing), but the rampant, enthusiastic clericalism makes it unredeemable.
Seven Roman Catholic blind spots: Rome says, “We will use the word “Father” as a formal and professional title for our clergy.” But Scripture says, “call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven” (Mat_23:9 ). Rome says, “Our bishops cannot be the husband of a wife.” But Scripture says, “A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife...” (1Timothy 3:2 ). Rome says, “There is nothing wrong with having statues and icons.” But Scripture says, “Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am Yahweh your God.” ( Lev. 26:1). Rome says, "All our saints are dead." But Scripture says that EVERY member of the congregation must be a saint while they are still living. Romans 16:15, 1 Corinthians 1:2, 1 Corinthians 6:2, Ephesians 2:19, Ephesians 4:12, Ephesians 5:3, Philippians 1:1, Philippians 4:22, etc. Rome says: You are encouraged to incorporate repetitive elements in prayer with "decades" of ten repetitions. But Scripture says, "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions..." Matthew 6:7 Rome says to honor Astarte (Easter) and Saturnalia (December 25th). These were already pagan holidays of Rome before Christianity got there. But Scripture says, “And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.” (1 Corinthians 11:24-26). In other words, when He said, “this do ye as often as ye drink it” He was referring to the cup of Passover wine and the unleavened bread of the Passover meal that He was having with His disciples. Rome says, “You need to submit to our authority if you want to go to heaven.” But scripture says, “... If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him.” (John 14:23). The Father and Son want to abide in you. Your body is supposed to be the temple of the Holy Spirit and not a church building or a church altar (1 Corinthians 6:19). There is absolutely no room for any religious organization to insert itself into this equation. They have no right to make this kind of spiritual power grab.
If you say that the Church has erred on the first charge, then you claim that St. Paul erred in all the instances where he refers to himself as a spiritual father.
15:55 The person in question here didn't claim to establish heaven on earth, did he? That sounds more like some kind of dispensationalist idea, something tratcaths unanimously reject. 17:35 This isn't what traditional Christianity, Catholic or otherwise, teaches. People from St. Stephen all the way to the ISIS martyrs and beyond have been giving their life rather than follow whoever is on the pier at the moment. Obviously if you don't believe in it in the first place it's absolutely nuts for people to rather die than give up their faith, but then it's better to just in all honesty say so.
for as long as someone is in communion with the bishop of rome and the bishops in communion with him, and does not deny their legitimacy nor the continuity of the magisterium as promulgated by vatican 1, and believes in the legitimacy of succeeding ecumenical councils, such as vatican 2, and their unbroken magisterium, then he is a faithful catholic. the liturgy, no matter how beautiful, is insufficient to keep you catholic. it is the obedience to the successor of peter and the belief in the unbroken succession and authority that keeps you catholic in the church. the old catholics disagreed with vatican 1; look at them now. the archbishop of utrecht, under persecution, ordained bishops without papal mandate and are therefore illegitimate have been the source of the episcopi vaganti; look at them now. the orthodox, have valid and beautiful liturgies but they are not in communion with the pope; who has prospered? it resolves to the obedience to the authority of the pope. this is the defining feature of the catholic church. and this magisterium is not dependent on the saints, nor the angels, nor some earthly civil authority, but on the apostolic succession to the throne of str. peter. God the Holy Spirit does not need the popes to be holy in order for the church to function. the promises of christ that the church will endure forever, and neither death nor the gates of hell will overcome it, is all that is required.
"And seeing many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them: Ye brood of vipers, who hath shewed you to flee from the wrath to come?" [Matthew 3:7] "And when he was come into the temple, there came to him, as he was teaching, the chief priests and ancients of the people, saying: By what authority dost thou these things? and who hath given thee this authority. Jesus answering, said to them: I also will ask you one word, which if you shall tell me, I will also tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven or from men? But they thought within themselves, saying: If we shall say, from heaven, he will say to us: Why then did you not believe him? But if we shall say, from men, we are afraid of the multitude: for all held John as a prophet. And answering Jesus, they said: We know not. He also said to them: Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things." [Matthew 21:23-27] "All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not." [Matthew 23:3] "Ye foolish and blind; for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?" [Matthew 23:17] "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema." [Galatians 1:8]
I have had only positive experiences with Traditional Catholicism. My faith has grown because of the old rite. I tried to watch your whole video to understand your point. I disagree. The Latin rite existed long before Vatican 2 and is not a result of it. The novus ordo new church rebelled against tradition, not the traditional rite Church.. It is the very thing that has caused chaos. As for bad priests...they are everywhere. Many became priests just to gain access to vulnerable people.. But people are not the Church...Jesus is. Focus on Jesus. Pray always, and stay in the state of grace.
You say people are not the church, but my only experience of the church is people. I can't focus on Jesus because I don't know where to look. I already look to the place where you say Jesus is and all I found were predators and wolves but also many well-intentioned good people who were just as human as I was. I tried prayer and my life only got better when I stopped praying and started doing and I don't know what the state of grace even means anymore because sin is incoherently defined, and original sin is an unjust and illogical concept that curses you for the crime of existing.
I was born into the FSSP and I was forced into a marriage when I was 22. I can count the number of Novus Order masses I have been to in my entire life on my finders and toes. I went to the TLM 6 days a week. How could anyone blame the "chaos" that was forced onto me on the Novus Ordo? The Traditionalist Church has its fair share of chaos, trust me.
I'm catholic. Radical Traditionalism is wrong. You are rejecting the authority of the church by rejecting Vatican 2. It does not matter that there are no infallible statements in Vatican 2. As the lay faithful we are bound to submit your intellect and will to the ordinary teaching authority of the Pope and of the college of bishops, the ecumenical councils. This is explicit in the first Vatican council, unless you've also decided arbitrarily to reject that too. @TheDragonsofVictory is wrong about the church, but he makes some valid points about traditional catholicism. They have endorsed false shepherds. Vigano is a great example.
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I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "Traditional Catholicism".
Did the Church get it wrong all the way up to about 1900 and then finally figured it out, or is it rather that modern trads have the wrong understanding of what the Church was before about 1900?
If so, then that is not 'Traditional' Catholicism.
Keep the Faith; tell the truth, shame the devil, and let the the demons shriek.
God bless. ;o)
Traddery is something of a retreat from the modern world (not necessarily a bad thing), but the rampant, enthusiastic clericalism makes it unredeemable.
Irredeemable *
Seven Roman Catholic blind spots:
Rome says, “We will use the word “Father” as a formal and professional title for our clergy.”
But Scripture says, “call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven” (Mat_23:9 ).
Rome says, “Our bishops cannot be the husband of a wife.”
But Scripture says, “A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife...” (1Timothy 3:2 ).
Rome says, “There is nothing wrong with having statues and icons.”
But Scripture says, “Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am Yahweh your God.” ( Lev. 26:1).
Rome says, "All our saints are dead."
But Scripture says that EVERY member of the congregation must be a saint while they are still living. Romans 16:15, 1 Corinthians 1:2, 1 Corinthians 6:2, Ephesians 2:19, Ephesians 4:12, Ephesians 5:3, Philippians 1:1, Philippians 4:22, etc.
Rome says: You are encouraged to incorporate repetitive elements in prayer with "decades" of ten repetitions.
But Scripture says, "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions..." Matthew 6:7
Rome says to honor Astarte (Easter) and Saturnalia (December 25th). These were already pagan holidays of Rome before Christianity got there.
But Scripture says, “And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.” (1 Corinthians 11:24-26). In other words, when He said, “this do ye as often as ye drink it” He was referring to the cup of Passover wine and the unleavened bread of the Passover meal that He was having with His disciples.
Rome says, “You need to submit to our authority if you want to go to heaven.”
But scripture says, “... If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him.” (John 14:23). The Father and Son want to abide in you. Your body is supposed to be the temple of the Holy Spirit and not a church building or a church altar (1 Corinthians 6:19). There is absolutely no room for any religious organization to insert itself into this equation. They have no right to make this kind of spiritual power grab.
If you say that the Church has erred on the first charge, then you claim that St. Paul erred in all the instances where he refers to himself as a spiritual father.
@@Malygosblues Yeah pretty much. I don't believe anything St. Paul says.
15:55 The person in question here didn't claim to establish heaven on earth, did he? That sounds more like some kind of dispensationalist idea, something tratcaths unanimously reject.
17:35 This isn't what traditional Christianity, Catholic or otherwise, teaches. People from St. Stephen all the way to the ISIS martyrs and beyond have been giving their life rather than follow whoever is on the pier at the moment. Obviously if you don't believe in it in the first place it's absolutely nuts for people to rather die than give up their faith, but then it's better to just in all honesty say so.
for as long as someone is in communion with the bishop of rome and the bishops in communion with him, and does not deny their legitimacy nor the continuity of the magisterium as promulgated by vatican 1, and believes in the legitimacy of succeeding ecumenical councils, such as vatican 2, and their unbroken magisterium, then he is a faithful catholic.
the liturgy, no matter how beautiful, is insufficient to keep you catholic. it is the obedience to the successor of peter and the belief in the unbroken succession and authority that keeps you catholic in the church. the old catholics disagreed with vatican 1; look at them now. the archbishop of utrecht, under persecution, ordained bishops without papal mandate and are therefore illegitimate have been the source of the episcopi vaganti; look at them now. the orthodox, have valid and beautiful liturgies but they are not in communion with the pope; who has prospered?
it resolves to the obedience to the authority of the pope. this is the defining feature of the catholic church. and this magisterium is not dependent on the saints, nor the angels, nor some earthly civil authority, but on the apostolic succession to the throne of str. peter. God the Holy Spirit does not need the popes to be holy in order for the church to function. the promises of christ that the church will endure forever, and neither death nor the gates of hell will overcome it, is all that is required.
"And seeing many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them: Ye brood of vipers, who hath shewed you to flee from the wrath to come?" [Matthew 3:7]
"And when he was come into the temple, there came to him, as he was teaching, the chief priests and ancients of the people, saying: By what authority dost thou these things? and who hath given thee this authority. Jesus answering, said to them: I also will ask you one word, which if you shall tell me, I will also tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven or from men? But they thought within themselves, saying: If we shall say, from heaven, he will say to us: Why then did you not believe him? But if we shall say, from men, we are afraid of the multitude: for all held John as a prophet. And answering Jesus, they said: We know not. He also said to them: Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things." [Matthew 21:23-27]
"All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not." [Matthew 23:3]
"Ye foolish and blind; for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?" [Matthew 23:17]
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema." [Galatians 1:8]
You are too confused to be trying to teach anyone.
Facts.
I have had only positive experiences with Traditional Catholicism. My faith has grown because of the old rite.
I tried to watch your whole video to understand your point. I disagree. The Latin rite existed long before Vatican 2 and is not a result of it. The novus ordo new church rebelled against tradition, not the traditional rite Church.. It is the very thing that has caused chaos.
As for bad priests...they are everywhere. Many became priests just to gain access to vulnerable people.. But people are not the Church...Jesus is. Focus on Jesus. Pray always, and stay in the state of grace.
You say people are not the church, but my only experience of the church is people. I can't focus on Jesus because I don't know where to look. I already look to the place where you say Jesus is and all I found were predators and wolves but also many well-intentioned good people who were just as human as I was. I tried prayer and my life only got better when I stopped praying and started doing and I don't know what the state of grace even means anymore because sin is incoherently defined, and original sin is an unjust and illogical concept that curses you for the crime of existing.
I was born into the FSSP and I was forced into a marriage when I was 22. I can count the number of Novus Order masses I have been to in my entire life on my finders and toes. I went to the TLM 6 days a week. How could anyone blame the "chaos" that was forced onto me on the Novus Ordo? The Traditionalist Church has its fair share of chaos, trust me.
I'm catholic. Radical Traditionalism is wrong. You are rejecting the authority of the church by rejecting Vatican 2. It does not matter that there are no infallible statements in Vatican 2. As the lay faithful we are bound to submit your intellect and will to the ordinary teaching authority of the Pope and of the college of bishops, the ecumenical councils. This is explicit in the first Vatican council, unless you've also decided arbitrarily to reject that too.
@TheDragonsofVictory is wrong about the church, but he makes some valid points about traditional catholicism. They have endorsed false shepherds. Vigano is a great example.
I'm a former Eastern Orthodox and a Catholic convert.
Can you give me any serious argument why I should become "Traditional" Catholic?
liking the comment of an ex-catholic really shows your hand