Charmed | The Phoebe Problem (and How They Fixed It)
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- #charmed #alyssamilano #bookofshadows
Phoebe Halliwell...so much to unpack. And a lot to defend actually.
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I will never get over the fact that even though phoebe left cole in the demon wasteland he somehow got himself out and the first thing he did was save the sisters and received zero credit from anyone
They totally did him wrong in season 5
I think the show did him dirty in general
And Piper hearing he's back immediately jumps to "does he want my baby!?"
Like...sweetie, whatever you're smoking, it probably isn't good for the baby
More than half the time that we had Cole freaking loved his character!Though some of the uncomfortable stuff was weird for me because there was too many parallels with my own brother 😅
Well, if a bad person does one good thing, that doesn’t automatically erase the past and make them a good person. The point in the series was that he wasn’t good and never became good, he just pretended to be good for some selfish reasons.
Cole was Phoebe's true love. Even Alyssa said it in an interview. The writers did him dirty. 😔
Eric/Sookie, Caroline/Klaus
@@adrienneclarke3953 I'll never get over Klaroline.
@@MermaidMusings7 me neither🙁
The writers did them both dirty. Aww poor Phoebe. What about Cole? he really loved her and sacrificed everything that he could for her and she never took responsibility for anything she did. I rly hate her.
@@adrienneclarke3953They should have been endgame.
I honestly never disliked Phoebe. For me, her arc always made sense. What bugged me more was how these things were addressed in the show and how dirty they did Cole
Yes absolutely
Hello 🫶🏾🙌🏾 Cause we love Cole. I don’t know what they’re talk about.
And Phoebe was always my favorite sister and Piper. I only liked Paige during the arc with Agent Brody ( I wanted them to end up together so bad) I never cared for Prue. It was sad when she died though.
@@Epic4Evr1990I didn’t care for Cole much. Phoebe lost her self when she started dating Cole. Cole got on my nerves. But do y’all realize that Paige character was another Phoebe. Cause how when phoebe was a teenager she was always getting in trouble. When Paige was a teenager she was always getting in trouble and fighting in school. They mirrored both those characters together
yeah, i thought there would be some redemption arc, like him not being devil anymore but a mortal, or lightbearer
@@poro9084 in the comics he got a redemption arc
I think a big part of Phoebe’s character that’s never discussed is prue. Like ppl forget that Prue was literally Phoebe’s mother figure
I loved their relationship too it was so cute they were sisters first but price was also there for her like a mother at times it was sweet
I agree, they didn't show Phoebe's grief enough after Prue dies.
Piper had plenty of moments, but Phoebe needed to be vurnerable and visibly grieve herself, but they didn't establish that change.
Prue was such a pivotal role in her life, who kept her grounded.
they definitely had good chemisty. i was surprised to know they didnt actually get on well.
?@@LarissaFay Sadly, now that we know some of the behind-the-scenes far better it makes perfect sense why the writers didn't try to make Alyssa Milano pretend to miss Shannon Doherty...
@@AimlessZealot IT wasn't about Alyssa miss Shannen but about Pheobe miss her big sister Prue. IT calls acting. The lack of emotions was disrespectfull to the character and relationship Pheobe and Prue shared.
Thank god the actors didn't want to do the Paige/Cole affair story line. It would have been awful.
Yeah, I've never been able to imagine how that would have worked. It would have felt so out of the blue because neither character showed any interest in each other.
People (mostly Phoebe and/or Phoebe&Cole fans) would have haaaaaated Paige for it. Fans already had to accept her as the new sister, coming in Prue's place, how the hell did they think fans would have accepted Paige having an affair with her new sister's man?! How would Phoebe and Paige's relationship ever fully heal from that? It's so messed up
Cole has never showed any interessiert in other woman than Phoebe... this would have been the point to stop watching the show
@@NaneB-ny2goand he hated Paige at that
agree
Piper was my favorite character. Every time she cried I bawled along with her.
Me too
I was always partial to Prue and Piper, the other two…eh. 😂
True! So did I. I think she was the best actress of them all, as she really made you feel what she felt.
Same 😂
Holly was such a great actress, she should of got more mainstream roles
This video helps to reveal why Charmed was groundbreaking for its time. Apart from being all female led, the characters are surprisingly complex and don't remain as cookie cutter copies from episode 1 until the finale. They are often changed by events that take place, for better or worse. And the writers don't allow the idea of the sisters being "good witches" to get in the way of them making mistakes, and sometimes failing badly. Phoebe's arc perhaps illustrates these concepts the best. Simply put, they are human.
I will forever be a die-hard Prue fan but it's true that Phoebe was often the grounding force and heart of the series. Great in-depth look at her character arc.
Thanks for watching :)
I loved Prue.
While I love Paige and how it changed Piper to take on big sister responsibility and Phoebe to take on the middle sister responsibility to help Paige become a witch along with the nuance of being half witch half white lighter, I wished that Shannon Doherty had gotten the therapy she needed, so she could've stayed on the show. She really was an excellent actress and I wonder if she had sought help sooner if she would've caught her illness sooner. 😢
Piper and prue where ma fav one always watched beverly hills 90210 when growing UP so to see here there again i was happy
@@buttahp Shannon wasn't ill back in the early 00's. She envied of Milano's growing popularity back then. She wanted to be the main character.
Piper has always been my favorite. She's so motherly and sweet through most of the series. And her cute quirky smile when she's being silly always melted my heart.
Piper started out as the most relatable, quirky and likable sister to the Devil Incarnate past season 5 lmao
Piper motherly and sweet? What show did you watch dude 🤣
She is a complete banshee, always screams and complains and does not give a crap about saving innocent people.
You have been watching the wrong show! Piper has been saving the innocent since season one.She has every right to have a bad day nobody is perfect, she is only human@@akizaizinskii
"Wrong thing done for the right reason, still the wrong thing." Favorite quote of the whole series and top ten across television.
I guess I never really had a problem with Phoebe, and to be honest with you, I never really knew fans had a problem with her until this video.
My favorite sister is Piper. She was a bit awkward, caring and yet sarcastic. I hope you do an analysis on her.
I think my personal dislike only ever came in post Cole when she is dating a new "hot" guy every other week.
But that's probably just my puritanical nature.
Other than that, I understand some of the fan criticism but I don't share them.
Same for Piper who I think was my favorite until recently replaced by Paige.
Yes please an analysis on Piper❤
Same about Phoebe, I feel like I am most like Piper but my fave sister has always been Phoebe, then Page, then Piper. Prue reminds me too much of my older sister and I am currently not talking to her.
We never hated phoebe over here… we loved cole though too
I've come to realise just how much I love Piper in the last few months lol
I personally do not think Phoebe had a "problem". I think that Phoebe was a girl in her 20s falling in love, getting married struggling with grief and making ALOT OF MISTAKES! Which is basically a normal thing. She was living life and for most people in their 20s that includes making bad decisions sometimes. In the world of Charmed, Phoebe's character is the closest to real life. Real people in the real world lose their way, become selfish; And sometimes people become collateral damage in our story of life. I think it is beautiful that the writers showed Phoebe's peaks and valleys in her personality as well as choices. The writers ended her story well. Let's give her some grace. She learned, she faced consequences, and she grew and she found her way back home to the Phoebe personality that we LOVE!
This is a great point. I think I subconsciously felt the same about Phoebe when I watched the show. She does most mistakes of all them, also being the youngest (before Paige), which fits well.
I hated when Cole became evil again. I loved it when he was helping them and fighting against evil. I was rooting for them as a kid and wanted them to have a “forbidden love” just as good and strong as Piper and Leo. Phoebe’s treatment of Cole after he was forced into evil is evil in itself.
So glad someone understands. It was totally not his fault.
I wish they at least tried to explain it through her reacting through trauma and having to work through her harming another person because of it.
I was one of those people who actually never hated Phoebe, even though I did take issue with how she (and really, the show) treated Cole in season 5, but this video does definitely give me a new appreciation for her character development.
Thanks for watching :)
@@BetterWithBob Sure, I always enjoy your videos.
I will forever defend Phoebe , i just feel like the true reason for her becoming derailed (i.e. demonic abortion) was too dark to them to truly touch on in that particular time frame the show was aired . It's so obvious when Wyatt is born that Phoebe still thinks of her unborn son and life that she worked so hard to have and lost due to magic, which is why she never wanted to date magical beings .
I had never thought of that until Rachel McDonald pointed it out. And another commentor said that Phoebe physically experiences her premonitions as though she lived them. So the vision quest and one Kyra gave her had her physically feel that she was pregnant and that she held her daughter, and so it may have felt that she was losing a child all over again
Same.. And you forgot to add she was born in the manor on top of the nexus meaning she was more susceptible to evil just like Wyatt . It was stated that being born in the house does that to you because the nexus is neutral not good or evil
@@brodie112 That whole susceptible to evil thing after being born in the Manor needs a video in itself!! I don't understand it from an in-universe perspective nor understand what the dramatic point of it is for it to have been put into a script. It also seems to me to unintentionally take agency away from a major character so I basically ignore it the couple of times it gets mentioned!
I have said this before and gotten downvoted to high hell. Phoebe was very obviously traumatized by her experience with Cole and her son. She was overly obsessed with Wyatt (who would not have been much older than her son), determined to get rid of Cole at all costs, and is single-handedly focused on finding love and having another baby. Clearly a trauma response and it makes me mad they didn’t address it well.
@Emu2007b They kind of explain it in "Is There A Woogy In The House?" The house was built on both a spiritual nexus and a Wiccan one. It's a battleground for good and evil, so people who were born there, (Phoebe and Wyatt) are easier to sway to the dark side.
When you view Phoebe's relationship with Cole as an allegory for domestic violence (stalking, isolation, physical abuse, literal attempted murder, etc) it makes sense why she makes the selfish heel turn in season 5. She was just getting out of that relationship and trying to find herself again while constantly being reminded of her ex and the person she was while she was with him. Phoebe's defining characteristic has always been her heart, so when that was bruised, she lost herself.
I came to the comments hoping someone had the same understanding I did. He was obsessed with her and proving that they were meant to be together instead of giving her time to heal.
Except nothing Cole did was abusive. He became possessed by the source saving the girls life and when what was left of Cole tried to get rid of the source, Phoebe killed the wizard, stopping him. And episode late killed Cole. And then when Cole's soul was trapped in hell, Phoebe did nothing to save him. And then when he did come back, she repeatedly abused and gas light him. It was an abusive relationship, but Phoebe was the abuser.
@Suiter You're forgetting everything that happened before that. Cole was literally sent to kill Phoebe and her sisters. He compiled information about her, stalked her, isolated her from her sisters, sent a demon after them with the express purpose of alienating them from one another, convinced her to betray her sisters by letting him live only to come back like nothing happened and wormed his way back into her life. All of that happened before he merged with The Source. It happened again in season 4 when Cole manipulated her into moving out and getting her pregnant to lock her in the relationship. All domestic abuse tactics BTW. Everything Phoebe did to him in season 5 was reactive because of their history. She was burned by him twice and the second time, it cost her a child, her husband, and she almost lost her family. Cole was dead, but then he pops back up with so much demonic power that he can't be vanquished and we're surprised that Phoebe distances herself and wants to make sure he's dead for good? Phoebe definitely became selfish in season 5, but, as the premiere of that season clearly explains, it's because she was so destroyed over Cole's betrayal and the trauma he inflicted. Cole isn't the victim in this.
@RogueSinner Yes the first half of season 3 was Cole at his most evil. And Phoebe has every right to hate him for that. But she knew he had changed and she forgave him and married him. And nothing he did after merging with the source was his fault. He was completely possessed. In the exact same way Phoebe was possessed at the same time, but she blamed him for everything that happened.
@Suiter If you're going to hold Cole blameless as The Source, then you must also hold Phoebe blameless for what she did as Queen. The same way she chose to kill the Wizard and save an innocent as Queen is the same way Cole chose to lie and manipulate as The Source. They were both influenced, but they both made their own choices. By the time she'd lost the baby, she didn't want to be with him anymore. She needed space. If that wasn't evident by leaving him in the wasteland, it was very evident by the start of season 5. By then, they didn't owe one another anything. They'd saved one another countless times. He was lucky to be able to have come back invincible. He should've counted his "blessings" and moved on instead of becoming obsessed with being with her.
One thing that is definitely not a problem is Pheobe’s wardrobe especially when it seems like she had a change of costume designer between Season 5 and 8. She dressed rather flawlessy from head to toe and it fit Alyssa’s body type very well especially in Season 5 and Season 7. I actually noticed an increase of detail in her style beginning in mid-Season 4 after she got married.
I remember always looked forward into seeing what hairstyle she was going to have in the following episode.
It might make sense from an in-universe POV too, since now as Ask Phoebe she's expected to make appearances on TV etc and so would either have a stylist or learn to get good on her own. That's also when she gets a car of her own for the first time too I believe
I'm not gonna lie - I warmed to Phoebe again by S8 partly because of how gorgeous her style was by that point lol
@@BetterWithBob oh wow I didn’t think about the in-universe POV. That’s a great point and make sense with her occupation.
She's so stunning in season 8
@@_jolie_ especially that hair in MR AND MRS WITCH
That's deffo part of the reason why she was always my Fav, I LOVED her wardrobe.
Phoebe has always been my favorite, I'll always defend her. She was always the sister striving to be better, to grow not just as a witch but as a person. Then she wanted to find love how Piper and Prue had found and she did unfortunately it was a half demon and despite that love, she ended up destroying him.
Also the show declined in writing, and ignored the fact that Cole was violated by the essence of the source and corrupted.
For me the show stunted her in favor of the other characters at time. She's the sister whos powers had the least growth overall but they kinda course corrected in season 8 with her. Nice video.
The comic writers sort of realized this & gave her a bit more growth too.
Excellent analysis! Phoebe went on such a character journey throughout the show, hitting both very high highs and very low lows. It definitely helps that she had an upswing in the last couple seasons and ended strong. Early season Phoebe just hits different though and I always really resonated with her the most. So it’s especially nice for me to see some parallels to that in season 8.
Phoebe wasnt a perfect character, but her lines in the show helped me to believe my feelings mattered as a 17 year old, for the first time in my life.
Wonderful to hear :)
Her lines in which part of the show?
My Favorite line from Phoebe is “the wrong thing done for the right reason is still the wrong thing”
Pheebsss
Well, I'll be always rooting for Cole and Phoebe as a acouple because it made sense. At least for the time when Cole was present in the series ( I read somewhere that Julian had a more promising lead role in another series, and it is the reason why his character was ruined).
Hear me out, they both had this fire inside, this passion, this connection when Phobe could understand and love a demon and a demon could fall in live with a witch. It was perfect combination of opposite but similar worlds - she had enough evil in her and he had enough good in him. They were keeping each other right in the middle and in the beginning I saw a lot of growth in their characters.
Another thing is what writers did to Cole. Putting aside the fact that maybe the actor needed to leave for another role, I think writers did us bad. Cole could have character development even after stopping being a demon or he could simply keep his identity controlling it.
I don't believe that making him a second Leo, the guy who means almost nothing without his wife, would be a good thing. Cole isn't like that. But writers did bad to him. And Phobe did bad to him too.
And no matter what, I believe that Cole was her soulmate.
Coop was fine but he was introduced well too late. He and Phobe did not have great chemestry but I can believe in their love. because it seemed nice calm adult love. It was just made like 'oh, we are finishing the whole Charmed series and Phobe is still single, let's find asap someone for her".
Yeah he starred in Nip/Tuck and several movies like Premonition with Sandra Bullock. I hate how they ruined his character before he left
I know this video isn’t about Prue but I’m not sure why everyone hates her. Especially now when the whole older sister syndrome is becoming more known which is Prue exactly so you would think more people would sympathize with her at least nowadays. She doesn’t have to be the favorite but her being the most hated character is a bit much. It’s also odd because she wasn’t even apart of the show for that long. Only 3 seasons.
Looove Prue from the beginning
They had to write her out because of Alyssa Milano wanting Shannen Doherty out of the series. So the writers HAD to make the public kinda hate or not like Prue as much as she was liked in S1. Because imagine the mess if they had killed off an extremely beloved character....the whole series would have flopped. So I do blame Alyssa Milano for wantin Shannen out, because I do love Prue so much (and being an older sister, I do understand her so so much; same for Piper when she become the oldest).
Prue isn't actually hated, she's actually the most popular sister. It's the channel owner that pushes that narrative by constantly mentioning it. And he is probably one of a handful of people who have Paige as their favorite and Prue as their least. I couldn't relate to Phoebe, I'm the eldest one of 3, always had to be the responsible one with no room for messing up. Phoebe was more lkke my little brother whom i resented because he was a mess and everyone thought it was cute.
"Its not her fault, she was born in the house" has always been my defense 😂😂😂
I just realised that wyatt was Born in the house, too. And in one timeline he turned out evil.
@@fannyh.4369 right, and Paige and her evil past self, I'm pretty sure she was born in the house too!
I never liked Paige... I've never got used to her character....
@@bluewolf860 i felt the same at first. But after rewatching it over and over again. She bacame my third favorite of the sisters after prue and piper.
I never disliked her, idk. Her actions, even the bad ones, just always made sense with everything she's went through.
Same, it's why I've always forgiven her for being so harsh on Cole when he was a victim of the Source and didn't mean to destroy her mentally. The writers confused everything (where the Source started and where Cole ended) but thankfully she had gone through so much that I could accept a lot coming from her.
I've been anticipating this video since you mentioned it a while back. Excellent job! Season 8 Phoebe felt like we were getting Season 1-3 Phoebe back. I wish the writers had leaned into that more.
In the Charmed reboot, the youngest sister, Maggie, can project her own emotions and manipulate the feelings of others. I thought to myself recently that it would have been interesting had Phoebe's empath power returned that way. It would have been a significant reverse of Season 6, with her having to keep her emotions in check to avoid influencing those around her instead of feeling like she was at the mercy of other people's feelings.
Plot-wise, it would have also been a good idea to have the power return differently to avoid her being OP'd and not figuring out Christy's treachery earlier. It could also have been used as a plot device to illustrate how Phoebe's own growth impacted the function of her powers. They had ample opportunities to get the character back on track, and i feel like they should have leaned into Phoebe's trauma a little more to explain her selfishness. It makes perfect sense that a caring, empathic person might spiral after experiencing significant losses.
She does get her empathy back in the comics. They evolve so she can channel the emotions back to them and if she pleases kill people/demons. But there is a divide between fans if the comics are canon or not. Likewise in the Buffy fandom.
@@jimmyl3878 Canon is personal. For me I swear blind that they are as they carry on the story and the legacy. Whereas a large chunk of the Buffy comics were made during the runs of Buffy/Angel and often get written over or retconned by the TV show.
I watched like half a season of that disgusting thing they try to pass as The Charmed Reboot/Remake it was soo bad, specially how they took the story arcs from the original Charmed into mashed/meshed "fresh" take on the Reboot... lol
I, sadly, stopped watching Charmed after Cole came back and Phobe started dogging him. He was one of my favorite characters and I was so irrationally mad about lol. This video actually reminded me of how much I used to love this show, will need to rewatch and catchup on the later seasons.
I dont get the Prue hate...she was a badass witch who carried the show. Phoebe and Piper were the best in earlier seasons and Phoebe's prime season 4 when she welcomed Paige in (then ruined when she married Cole and became the Dark Queen), but after Prue's death, they both became cold and selfish. I get they lost the love of the craft after they lost their sister and after their heartbreaks with Cole and Leo vs the Elders.... but they became so cold. Phoebe was so obsessed with looking for a man, she became so codependent and lost all the great things that made her what we loved in the beginning, she loved magic, then she hated it and only cared about her annoying advice column and only using her powers when it served her finding a man or going back to her man. Nothing wrong with wanting love, but she couldve taken Cole back after his Source arch. She fell for Belthazor, betraying the trust of her sisters... like what was the different? She loathed Cole when he came back from the Demonic Wasteland...and ruined his redemption.. and her short hair was awful.
Not “her short hair was awful” 💀💀💀
I agree. Prue was the best
I think it’s more “Shannon” hate than “Prue” hate.
Interesting point is that although Phoebe didn't actually see Piper die in the S3 finale, she did KNOW it happened - her, Leo and Cole are the only ones in the family who know the alternate timeline where Piper dies, as they were unaffected by the time rewind while in the underworld. She saw Leo come back devastated, which sealed her making the deal with Source for Tempest. So for me, story wise, there's an extra kick to including that in the montage, as she is one of only two living characters (not counting purgatory Cole) to know just how violently Piper died in that timeline. I might be giving them too much credit for continuity, considering some of the really egregious goofs following in S8 lol (Paige asking how Phoebe and Piper how they vanquished the Source??) But it's a thought
I will never get over that goof. Unforgivable.
The show actually had pretty decent continuity. It was mainly Season 6 that had a few goofs, aside from that one in Desperate Housewitches. 8 actually has a lot of call backs and continuity nods
Paige asking how they vanquished the source always bugs me. Dumbest line in the series. She was there for all 4 times they did it.
so in a way she traded prue for piper? maybe it's been a while but I don't remember that wow 😮
@@marigolden_mariposa she wasn't expecting Prue to die. If time was rewounded to just when Shax attacked by stairs, then she expected Leo was gonna get there in time to save both sisters like he did before.
Unfortunately I guess Leo focused more on saving Piper (just after seeing her gunshot wound in the previous timeline) so by the time he got to Prue, her soul was gone.
You are right about Phoebe towards Cole. But the truth is Phoebe but I took season 4 and 5 as Phoebe was afraid of the propensity of evil within herself.
She felt that acknowledging her love for Cole might send her back down a dark path because she turned evil several times before. In this life and the last.
Thank you for this excellent analysis! Phoebe is my second favourite sister. I've struggled to find a through line for her character because there is such a shift from the happy, romantic Phoebe in the first three seasons to who she is later, but seeing everything set out this way really helps, as does keeping in mind how much trauma she has suffered - it would be impossible for her not to change. I also love that you point out her actions towards Cole in the end as understandable, but not reasonable. The worst thing the Charmed writers ever did was try to gaslight us all into thinking that Cole deserved to die for doing something he wasn't in control of. I'm just glad that Phoebe got her redemption and happy ending after all
Deserve to die? Which time?
@@TCt83067695 the last time☺️
Yeah he should have been written as a tragic character who didn't deserve all of this happening to him but had a doomed destiny from the start. Centennial Charmed making him so unhinged out of nowhere is a shame but I also absolutely love that episode and at least he went out in an iconic episode.
@@_jolie_ 100% agree
Would have made better sense if he was honest with Phoebe
Thank you for the awesome breakdown and analysis of the character of Phoebe. I never hated her character but I did find it sad to watch her fall so far from where her character was in the early seasons and I was happy again when she became more like her former self by Season 8. While Piper is my favorite sister and the one I can relate the most to, through your videos I’ve come to realize just how much more I can relate to Phoebe at this point in my life. For the past five years or so, I’ve made finding love more of a priority in my life and in some ways I can relate to Phoebe’s struggles. My experiences haven’t been exactly like hers but I can better understand and empathize with the her struggle to try not to lose oneself in the pursuit of finding the right person to share your heart with.
Wishing you the best of luck in your search. The perfect other will get to you in perfect time. Don't sweat it 😊
@@TCt83067695 Thank you!!! 😊
I think it's intresting that Phoebe's derailments were always (or mostly) motivated by love. In her former life it was her falling in love with a warlock, in the future it was revenge for a loved one, and the whole Cole plotline was all of that.
But the Cole Problem became a phoebe Problem. The original plan was, that Cole was always still bad at his core, but still in love. Then they wrote another storyline, but continued the story in season 5 as if they had written the original.
If the had wrotten the original line, where Cole was always still evil, than her resistance to fall in love for real again, yet still craving it, and being a bit lost during season 5 or 6 six would make a lot of sense.
However, i do love Phoebe as a character also because she is always the most relatable. Her Powers are always underrated, the most painful and requiring the most work. to become offensively capable, she needs to train constantly and learn writing spells and potions quite a lot, yet she complains quite little.
Well said and good points
There is one scene you forgot to mention. When the sisters went back in time to help their ancestor stay alive for their future, Phoebe was taught the trick of cutting the skin of an apple and putting it in the water. The formation of the skin in the water would reveal her soulmate, and it shows the letter C. She assumed it was Cole, but by the episode of her adult nephews returning, she realizes Coop is her soulmate. I think a lot of people forget this detail. 😢
Let’s not forget: Coop was sent to her BY the Elders, cause they didn’t want her to go through the same thing Piper and Leo did. The Elders must have done their own research and learned he is her soulmate. (Of course, it could be that the writers reminded the producers that her soulmate’s name had to start with C. And Coop happened to be in the show already, so they couldn’t whip up a new relationship.)
This is so funny to me cause I remember that! LOl even though I loved Cole surprisingly I never thought her soulmate was Cole for some reason.
could say that Cole is her twin flame
@@lenayashina6777 true, lol. But you’d be surprised what people believed in during that time period.
@@lenayashina6777 I understand your opinion. But be mindful of what I actually said. “You’d be surprised what people believed in during that time period.” I never said modern times or current era. For all we know, any apple peel curling up in an alphabet letter would’ve been considered blasphemy.
And seriously. This is an old tv show, fiction mind you. (Who said any of it was real?) The writers most likely needed to come up with something for Cole to stay in the show. Viewers were probably wanting chemistry between him and Phoebe.
not the apple peel scene!! that was perfect charmed logic at its peak... like it could've only been maybe 2 or 3 letters lmao, what if her true love's name is richard or kevin or some shit
I agree with most of the points of this video. A couple things I would add:
I think her advice column was a massive detriment to the show and the character. The job wasn't at all interesting, but had so much time and attention give to it. And it lead to endless characters talking about how wonderful, and talented, and brilliant Phoebe is, especially in season 5 and 6, which was annoying as hell. People like rooting for an underdog, not the most wonderful character ever to exist.
There was WAY to much time spent on her love live. It got ridiculous. 3 different boyfriends had to show up to teach her to love again. After Cole most of her relationships were very dull and the guys were interchangeable.
A personal pet peeve, but I've always hated how useless they made her in the final season. She only has 3 premonitions, all of which have to do with herself. And she does absolutely no hand to hand combat.
Well in Season 6, the reason she's so on the ball is because her empathy power is manifesting
Her power of empathy could have been returned to her. It’s the least expensive of her three powers. No special effects required, I doubt a sound effect is that costly.
Speaking of the later seasons, her Dex story arc was whack!!! The time spent could have been used for Coop. Yes the actor brings in more commerical eyeballs from Sex and The City and all that but the arc is still 🥱. More Coop! 😍
I think the network was demanding that, so they had to do it. I think he works fine as a romantic false lead that you know she won't end up with
Empathy caused too much complications for plotlines. No one can hide anything from her if she's in the scene.
@@TCt83067695Basically the Troi problem; either she states the obvious or her very existence makes the plot impossible because you can't hide anything from her.
Piper has always been my favorite. She went from middle sister to overnight having to become the oldest one who is supposed to wrangle in everyone. She had to take Prue's place which she never had to do before. Prue had her whole life to do that. And because Piper was the first to become a mom she had to become more grounded and focused. She wanted her family to stay together, and sometimes she would be selfish, but she wanted help from her husband. Once fetus Wyatt switched their lives and powers Piper and Leo came to understand and respect one another's struggles. Piper becoming a mother is what solidified her maturity as a character. She became the matriarch, but didn't always take the spotlight and gave credit where credit was due. The sister who was in the middle when the three were together was the dominant sister of the episode, and Piper would often stand behind them as a way to say, "I'll be here if you need me." Being a true mother rather than being forced into the role allowed her to learn to take time and think things through.
Paige, though the youngest, would often be a voice of reason and Piper would actually learn something through her which not only made her a better witch, but most importantly a mother. And Piper is the only sister who appeared in every episode, including the unaired pilot. Phoebe was in every aired episode, but Piper was in every episode that was filmed. Plus Piper was never one to take the spotlight, she preferred to stay in the middle or let others take the lead and she'd be backup. Piper had everything to gain and so much to lose considering she was a mother, sister, witch, wife, homemaker, and matriarch. I love Piper so much and she will always remain my favorite.
Honestly I think Phoebe and Prue are the most human characters in the entire show. Piper and Paige give very fictional. That’s why I love Phoebe she so relatable and makes a lot of choices I think a lot of us would’ve made given her life and situations she’s been in.
Phoebe is my absolute favorite sister and she gets so much undeserved hate. I have said it before but Season 8 was the first season of the show I watched and I fell in love with Phoebe almost immediately. I do agree season 5 is her worst season but in context of how much sh*t she had been put through is it really hard to understand why she became that way.
No for sure, imagine having your ex whom you want nothing to do with coming back to you over and over again, assuring you that you should be together. It's terrifying.
A few points I’d like to make about Phoebe.
1. I think she gets extra hate due due to the BTS conflicts Alyssa had with Shannon and Rose.
2. I actually thought her selfishness in S5 and her distain for Cole made sense. Phoebe was finally turning a new page in her life and Cole was a constant reminder of her past. I feel he had that same effect Victor had with Prue in S1&S2. I also think Piper’s pregnancy made Phoebe more careful about who she brought back into their lives.
3. Phoebe adopted a lot of Prue’s mannerisms toward in S5 especially her work ethic, I wish they touched on that more in S5 . I also felt it was interesting had gained the power of Empathy a power Prue accidentally got and was able to handle it much better, again showing her growth.
4. Phoebe losing her powers was warranted. Aside from production costs, she literally become the queen of all Evil I mean that’s reason enough.
5. Coop and Phoebe made the sense since Phoebe above all loved the idea of love. In S2, she fell in love with a Cupid and hell in S5 she became Athena the goddess of love so it makes sense she would end up with Cupid.
Oh Phoebe definitely gets projected onto by the particularly toxic set of Shannen's fans that try to make Alyssa the heel for sure
Aphrodite*
@@BetterWithBob
You're* clearly biased, the fact that you don't like Prue and/or Shannen Doherty, doesn't allow you to call her fans "toxic", if not, Alyssa Milano's fans are just as toxic...
@@shizukagozen777
Um no.
Shannen was fired from her two best parts. Alyssa never was.
@@lynnerose7891
Yeah, everybody already knows that but thanks for commenting though. 🙃
Prue was by far my favorite. She was complex and interesting. We were robbed.
Agree
I admittedly never liked Phoebe much (I'm a Piper girl myself), but I did eventually come to like the journey her character took. Starting out as the baby of the family and super excited about the magic, to losing so much and enduring so much trauma to it (Literally anything that happened with Cole and their child and her past life thing and the witch trial things, I could go on) It would be impossible for her to still carry that joy and innocence about magic that she had after having to deal with so much trauma and loss surrounding it. And then her change from the baby to suddenly the middle child is a whole psychological whiplash (I mean, Piper's sudden transition to the oldest left her turning into a fury in her grief so her sudden onset maturity and in her case serious defensiveness against any and all feelings is understandable, sort of). You don't come out of what they've been through unscathed mentally. I feel like she got a lot of backlash too for doing almost a 180 from wanting to be deep in the magic, family all living together, etc. to wanting her independence and her own life, but it does make sense with her character. Piper had already sort of managed her own life inside of it all, and Paige's story was about her accepting the other half of her (the whitelighter/magic of it all) ,and phoebe's growth was about finding herself outside of it all. Finding the success that no one in season 1 thought she was capable of.
My favourite seasons for Phoebe’s hair are 2,3 and 8. That’s when they styled her hair best.
The mirco bangs were awful.
I think the shoulder length is quite nice in 7. Like how she has it for the party in Charmageddon
The micro bangs reminds me of the ones Courtney Cox had in Scream 3. Horrible.
Phoebe is my favourite Charmed One- her love for magic, compassion for others, defender and want for equality was always something I adored her for, I connected with her the most across the show, thank you for this video. Love the analysis here of her character, Alyssa Milano made her so accessible and you could get all the feels aimed at her... Brilliant! When I face my darkest days, trauma, anxiety, depression I often think of Phoebe quotes,,, thank you ✨
Can you do a video on Chris? I always felt like they were setting him up to be a true villain, and then changed their mind halfway through. I'd also love to see an analysis on Piper and Paige. Love your videos!
Chris was my favorite of everyone.
I agree. I always wondered if Holly's pregnancy forced them to change course, b/c I still can't get over him killing Valkyries for their pendants & it not really being adressed as it should have been.
@@charmedlife1990I believe it did. They had to change course after Holly got pregnant. I actually like where they took his character.
I agree. I think I read somewhere that, at first, they really didn't know what they were going to do with Chris's character, which is why he comes off as a villain at first. @@charmedlife1990
Phoebe was my favorite during the beginning, but Paige quickly took that place. Piper is consistently the unmovable sister, and I love it.
Same
I remember always thinking how much mkre they coulda done with her power tht honestly woulda made her the power house of the show
Honestly I find it alarming the amount of horrendous takes on the Phoebe Cole relationship. Cole was toxic from the first moment to the last. Toxic boyfriends can still love their girlfriend but that doesn't make them less toxic. Everything good Cole ever was out of selfiness. Even when he was selfless he only ever did it because it would win Phoebe's approval or to win her back. While the development was poorly written, I'm glad of how they got rid of Cole. And people then accusing Phoebe of being selfish is nothing short of victim blaming. Truly bizarre and alarming take. Yes, let's root for the abusive boyfriend who deserve to be left where he belonged by his victim but also let's treat the victim like she's thrash for finally standing up for herself and finally saying no to his emotional abuse. I thought their relationship was a great metaphor on how to get out of a toxic abusive relationship but apparently people stan an abuser. *Slow clap*
I think Paige was more thrown in...a fix for the Shannon D issues Aaron Spelling was going through. The orginal 3 were Charmed for me. Each having their own personalities but also connections to each other. Paige just seemed out of place....
Same. I never got used to Paige. She just wasn't it for me.
So true. Prue made the show for me
Phoebe has always been my favorite. I think she one of the most complex characters of the show. I love Phoebe’s kind side and she is one funniest characters. Her storylines were always interesting. Especially when she is tempted or turned evil .
I love her arc in season 3-4 but hate her arc in season 5-6. But I liked how the writes did her better in season 7-8.
Phoebe was at her worst in S6 When she got Empathy! I just wanted her to go away to Hong Kong and not bother us!
😂🤦🏾♂️ 🤣 I actually kinda like her relationship with Jason. I think their chemistry worked well too. The actors were dating around that time too.
I really liked her relationship with Jason tbh they were cute together, there were some realistic chemistry sparks. And their break-up was a beautiful heart-breaking scene that always made me feel.
I’ve always said, when you think about it, Phoebe is the one who always suffered I mean Piper got her forever love with Leo and her amazing sons and even got to have her dreams job wise early into the series, Paige could be with a human cuz she never had the same problems her sisters did growing up without them, and then there’s Prue who clearly was going down the same path as Penny and Patty but Phoebe lost family, friends, and loves I honestly never agreed with Billie about Phoebe being selfish cuz she was the one I felt could do it without it coming off as bad since she was the one happy to be a witch early on but constantly had to get the short end of the stick.
Yeah I never thought about it that way. Piper would do anything for a life without magic in some episodes yet magic gave her her perfect family and Phoebe who embraced her new life so happily ended up going through the most.
@@_jolie_ Exactly Piper would rather be magic free but she has an actual angel for a husband, her son went back in time to save the other and their family, and Wyatt is like the super baby. Even Paige knowing she was a witch helped her get them and finally find out about her birth is magical. Prue, got alot of insight into how to relax and stop worrying with the help of magic but Phoebe embraced them being witches and the only significant love she had was a demon who got possessed by the source, she gets a vision about a utopia and her child but they wanna call her selfish for focusing on that and for once not thinking of her witchy duties that she spent years focusing on over herself?
They were all selfish by season 8 (Paige a little less). What really bugs me about season 8 (and the show getting picked up for another season) is how they handled the whole thing. They were all done with magic by season 7 ending. They give up their magic legacy, changed identities, let magic school go to hell, and they were totally fine with that. But then they decided to come clean for the most selfish reasons ever: Paige felt lost, Phoebe wanted to be with Dex as Phoebe not Julie, and Piper just wasnt feeling it, even though she had the magic free life she had been whining about since season 4. This made them look sooo bad, but worse thing was, the moment they decided to be charmed again, they started complaining about magic yet again 🙄🙄🙄🙄
This season has some serious issues. The only good thing about season 8 was Billie and Christy. I know most fans hate them, but it was cool to see witches who, power wise, were way cooler and more powerful than the charmed ones. Billie alone could travel back in time with her power of projection, something the charmed ones could never do on their own. Billie and Crhisty also defeated that demon who was pretty much invincible.
@@_jolie_ Right. I always hated that they made it so easy for Piper staying with Leo (yeah I know they were apart at different times) as opposed to Prue, Paige and Phoebe, who had several love losses, especially Phoebe.
I have this debate with my friends all the time, they disliked Phoebe and didn't understand why she was always my favourite. I feel like she actually had a journey throughout the seasons whereas Piper (their favourite) was pretty consistent throughout and therefore quite boring. Phoebe had character growth. Also, I am a sucker for a tragic romance and loved Phoebe and Cole as a couple. I really wanted them to work out and felt like the Coop storyline got rushed. I also feel like her losing the baby and the emotional toll of it got brushed over. Anyway, Phoebe was flawed but that made her real and interesting. Plus, she was always dressed cute 😁
Phoebe was there for eye candy, then she wasn't. Piper wins through the whole show and is still a smokeshow now.
Piper everyday, all the way.
I just want to say I don't despise her, she just gets on my nerves and regardless of the season is somehow always the youngest sister.
I disagree about her treatment of Cole throughout season 5. He stalked her constantly, inserting himself in her personal like and her responsibilities as a witch. He became obseesed. All she wanted to was get her life together. She still loved him, but was afraid of what lengths she would go to to be with him. She explains that very clearly and he, like much of the audeince, still didnt get it. In my opinion, it shows the hypocrisy in humanity where we know something is very bad for us, but choose it anyway despite all the warning signs.
I agree and thought the video maker was getting cause and effect mixed up in terms of what's toxic in the Phole ship in Season 5. But he is not alone in taking that viewpoint. I mean I think he is incorrect but can see why he might think that. Also the writer's making Cole toxic just to make Phoebe look good is a Spelling TV trope and yes its a very dated Soap trope (looking at you "Melrose Place"). The exact same thing happens in Season 2 when they make Dan go toxic just to make Piper look good for choosing Leo. The writers do need to take flak for a TV writing trope that's decades out of date.
@Emu2007b I don't think the writers necessarily wrote Cole as toxic to make Phoebe look good. That makes no sense because people with this opinion feel she comes off as completely selfish. She can't look good and be selfish at the same time. The same can be said for Dan. He didn't go toxic. He and Cole displayed tendencies that real men express: jealousy, insecurity, obsessiveness, etc. For some reason, audiences like to give passes to favored male characters when they commit wrong doings. It's always someone else's fault.
I get what you are saying but making the supporting character negative to boost the main character is a bad US TV cliche and it is employed twice by the Charmed writers. Neither instance was needed for both character arcs to be resolved satisfactorily..
@Emu2007b Except Dan wasn't written to be bad. I'm not seeing that. Dan was written to be a human man. The way he expressed himself was normal, and he had every right to feel the way he did because Piper was still in love with Leo, and he could feel something was still going on with them. What made her choose Leo was Dan stating he wouldn't be okay with her being a witch. That wasn't bad US TV cliche. It was Piper's loss as much of the audience wanted her to be with Dan. His reaction just wasn't in her favor. Folks keep making it seem as though Cole was an innocent before becoming what was. He was always bad. He entered the story plotting to kill them. Him becoming the The Source and then invincible showed that he couldn't live without magic and would go to any lengths to force Phoebe to be with him. That's not bad writing. That happens in society without magic.
@@jamesthe3rd259ı feel like this comment ignorws cole’s character development of 2,5 seasons completely :(
Thank you SO much for acknowledging the trauma that Phoebe experienced from her relationship with Cole. In a lot of Reddit posts and RUclips videos, there is a lack of nuance and you nailed it here.
Incredible video!
My main problem was, that I liked her far less than Piper and Prue and after Shannen left, it became more and more Alyssa Milano show. So much that I started to hate her. Being annoying and selfish didn't help.
It was the ego stroking that really turned me off. I was already starting to dislike the character, but that sent it over the edge.
In all my years of being a charmed fan I don’t think I realized Phoebe never saw Piper’s “death” in 3x22 and Chris’ in 6x22 which makes the vision even more impactful. Your analysis of how much she would be giving up by reversing utopia i agree with tho never realized how much she personally lost from it. I believe my own perception of how free will became null and void in the utopia blinded me to that. Excellent analysis and video and kudos for creating a 30 min video. From experience i know how challenging those are!
I LOVE PRUE!!!! She was and ALWAYS will be my favorite!! SO much so…..I couldn’t watch Charmed for a whole season after she left. I was NEVER as good without her. I LOVED when Phoebe was with Cole… I knew when she turned bad for cold, that that was never going to last because I was going to answer her nature, but I still love them together. No matter who she was with afterwards that was never going to be the same love that she had with Cole. AND I LOVED Billie!! She was my second favorite!!
*Great episode. could you please do one on Piper next? it would also be interesting to see Prue's character development if Doherty had stayed for all 8 seasons.*
Phoebe’s downfall as a character coincides with Alyssa Milano becoming a producer of the show. I don’t think there’s a coincidence.
Absolutely! When Charmed turned into AM's fashion show and every new episode was about her, her looks and her sexy transformations
💯
Another think that says A Lot is the rest of the actresses have No beef with each other and are good friends and go together on comic cons
I would love to see a video about Penny/Grams; specifically your opinion/analysis of her character and your understanding of why she apparently(?) was not liked by many fans of the show. Your channel, though. Your choice! I'll keep watching either way. 😁
She'd be fun to tackle, since she is kind of a parallel to Second Wave vs Third Wave Feminism
Phoebe went through the worst of the sisters. Starting with season 3, her character dealt with Cole trying to kill them, then Prue died and she was still trying to find herself. By the end, she was at peace.
Cole didnt ask or intend to be the source and prior to that, did quite a bit of good. When Cole later tried to give up the source's power, PHOEBE was the one who told him not to and that she would be with him (while evil). She them takes part in killing him when she changes her mind (as opposed to making any attempt to appeal to his human side) and callously rejects him when he comes back. Cole may not be innocent in the whole ordeal but neither is Phoebe.
I've never heard anyone that watched Charmed say that they hated Phoebe. I know that she's always been my favorite sister. I never cared for Prue or Paige, but Piper was a close second to Phoebe.
I didn't hate Phoebe but I loved Piper most and Prue second. Phoebe third and Paige fourth. It just wasn't the same after Prue died. But I don't hate any of them.
Out of all the sisters Phoebe had the most growth out of all the sisters, she went from the young black sheep of the family, with no future as Prue said in the first episode to pulling herself together and going back to school, getting her degree, fell in Love with a demon did everything she could to save him, Cole lost himself to the point of no return, demonic influences, demon pregnancy, torn between good and evil, she chose good and gave it all up, including the love of her life, she became the sister that bonded Piper and Paige after Prue died. Always fought for the power of 3, but with all that happened and all the heartache she focused on her career and success whilst being in a few relationships that didn't work out until Coop came along, loved all of them individually, Alisa was a part of my childhood on Who's the boss. Piper was my least favourite sister at first but became my favourite due to her quick sharp one liners and her gorgeous hair! They will all always have a special place in my heart.
To me, from seasons 3-8, all Phoebe cared about was men and sex.
She rather spend time, with a man, than being a witch and helping innocents. And she always said that she loved being a witch.
Phoebe also had the best hairstyles out of all the sisters.
in s3 maybe. are u forgetting s6
nope, she did not. Need I remind you of her ridiculous fringe?
I felt like they should have not given her levitation, but astral levitation and astral premonitions along with empathy. Her power set doesn’t make much sense. The only sisters that made sense was Piper and Paige.
It's wild how different perspectives can be! Phoebe was *always* my least favorite and Pru was my favorite. I was devastated when they wrote her permanently off the show. Once Pru was out, Paige and later the other found sister were my least favorites and I stopped watching it once they came on board.
I could have wrote this whole comment. Because that’s how I am too with the characters and the show.
Prue was my fav too, and Phoebe was my least fav. I think people who like Prue just can't stand her lmao. I was heart broken when they killed her off, but I liked Paige so I kept watching, but Phoebe kept taking up too much screen time and she was SOOOO annoying. It felt like they suddenly made her the main character. I quit the show.
@@KryaDiere Didn’t Alyssa become a producer soon when season four started or a little bit later?
I love Prue and I still believe the first 3 Seasons will be the best! I got through S4 and it was meh. Didn’t mind Paige but the whole Phoebe Cole love saga dragged on waaay too long for me. Plus the show got weird with the most random mythical creatures. Ugh. Stopped watching.
Actually I think anyone independent, of courage, not afraid of whats in the darkness, made to fight it, be the way relates to Phoebe.
Without her way in being, nothing would have come to be, yet we must hold fast to who we are, not to become such but fight it. Love to the best show eternally ❤❤❤❤ Charmed.
Phoebe is the one I identify with the most...the one who's been through so much (whether it's the result of her actions/choices or not) and grown so much over time.
I'm a work in progress and so was she.
the trauma of her miscarriage was so overlooked
Kyra! Omg, it’s so sad we only got two episodes with her. She could have gotten her own spin-off.
She's back in the Season 10 comics. Dating Cole's father of all people
it's funny how demons in Charmed went from being an individual demon to almost been a species. The Seer and the Grimlocks for example. @@BetterWithBob
I didn t like so much.
@@BetterWithBobUgh tell me you're kidding
I think the way she did cole was dirty. I dislike the lack of empathy all of the sisters had for him after finding out that it was the source that was doing everything especially without taking into account all of the times that he couldve killed them but cole's love for pheobe kept him from overtly killing all of them but especially the sisters because pheobe would've been hurt. So her treatment of him was too cruel. That time when he gave up his powers and then took them all back despite knowing how she felt about him having them could've been a great redemption for their relationship or at least for cole to be considered good again. I never hated her but season 5 i really didn't sympathize with her the way i usually did.
I'll never be bored of you making fun of Phoebe's bad hairstyles 😄
I'm still traumatised from the first time I watched The Three Faces of Phoebe
I loved Phoebe and Cole. ❤❤
I feel the same, I believe Cole loved her too much.
Prue and piper are my faves. I loved Phoebe in first 3 seasons but then she irritated me as it went on. Show just seemed to all be about Phoebe
I’ve always felt that Phoebe started off as being very involved and dedicated to being a witch but then later on wanted to focus on her love life and job more so, which annoyed me. Prue was my favourite overall, Paige my least.
Early season Phoebe inspires my own writing, my character is led by love, and as such can be swayed to evil for it. I love writing her in both paths, much like Charmed did with Phoebe.
But the plot really does derail when they treat Cole's situation like it was a choice, not a posession. And I'm really glad you acknowledge that people being frustrated with this isnt unreasonable.
But you have given me a different perspective on Phoebe in season 6, ironically a favorite of mine and least of yours. Her priorities are skewed because at this point, she's confused about her path in life, and feeling what everyone else feels. Crimes and Witch Demeanors was very obviously the writers writing themselves into a corner, but it's the reset Phoebe needed. I disagree about Lindsay giving Phoebe any meaningful development, as Drake later gives Phoebe that with a much more interesting character.
Season 8 Phoebe I think is overlooked because in general people don't like that season. You've made me reexamine it. And I've found that while I dont enjoy the season for entertainment, as it often bores me, there is a LOT of development that Billie brings. I love Phoebe and Billie, so much. And I love Phoebe rejecting Coop initially, not out of selfish reasons, but because she's literally trying to help Piper and Billie, and has no time for personal love. That's proof she's grown.
"Uncle Coop!" never fails to put a smile on my face, because that confirms to Phoebe that it's OKAY to feel the love she feels.
Yep, for all the complaints about her being selfish, she's literally putting off her love life to resolve the Ultimate Power situation
Cole was arguably one if not the most compelling character whose inner struggle between good and evil really resonated on screen (Julian McMahon was phenomenal). The way he was treated by the sisters as if he never did anything to help them and was public enemy no. 1 the entire time is so frustrating. As you pointed out, Phoebe out anyone should've been able to understand the position Cole was put in when the Source took over his body and the helplessness he felt as a result. The way she discarded him like a dirty dish towel was unforgivable and overall a turning point in my view of her character. Was Cole perfect? no but for that to be the catalyst for she and the sisters turning their backs on him when he had no control of it is cruel. They and the writers did this man so dirty, its unforgivable.
Prue was my favorite, Phoebe was my least favorite because of how she was from seasons 5 through 8. Phoebe would have been my favorite had she stayed humble like she was in the early seasons.
No i disagree. Cole was not an innocent that needed saving in that moment. Cole is a powerful demon that killed the triad, and knows how to survive. He wasn't in any immediate danger at all. Phoebe chose to go down to the underworld selfishly instead of being there for her sisters , which lead to Prue's death. It was her fault and it shifted my view on her after that. Thats why in season 4 episode 3 she told Piper when she was a fury that she thought she was angry with her because she thought Phoebe abandoned her and caused prue to die. That's the guilt talking.
I loved every session of Phoebe! She played the eternal child like she was born to it and then gently slipped into the middle child mediator role when Paige came in. Piper did the same from middle to eldest, the acting by these two women was perfection!
Phoebe was honestly my favourite the whole time since I related to her the most when I watched as a kid. I was never a sexual person like her, I’m on the ace spectrum, but I am a hopeless romantic and the youngest of four siblings. I also struggled in school due to neurodivergence and disabilities, and so struggling and feeling like I wanted magic, or help, a way out, was definitely something I liked about her.
I also thought it very realistic to have her character end up in an abusive relationship, as people who want to help others and come off as naive tend to be targets for abuse. (I think the begging of Cole was honestly really icky, and might have been why they, the writers, made her turn around to harm Cole later on. Still would have make more sense if they explained it, or explained if Cole was not actually being redeemed and had been gaslighting her instead of just…giving him real growth than shifting.) And I saw my eldest sibling, 12 years older than I, as kind of a father figure more than a brother for awhile too.
I relate to her in many ways, and frankly really liked what they did with her.
I can’t believe the writers would EVER consider an affair with Cole and Paige. That makes no sense and would ruin the Charmed Ones dynamic forever. Phoebe would never forgive Paige. I don’t know how the show could’ve gone on if this story happened. It would be like Prue fucking Leo behind Piper’s back… absolutely stupid!
Did anyone else find that the way the episode was constructed in Exit Strategy it didn’t make any sense Phoebe loosing her faith in Cole and not seeing it was by force? The theme and idea of getting Phoebe loosing her faith in Cole made sense and sounded like a great story telling but in execution didn’t work very well
I don't rewatch that episode much because of pain but I think it was a heat of the moment thing for Phoebe. She'd spent so long worrying that Cole slipped back into evil and keeping her faith up was becoming harder and harder, with a history of betrayal on the cards for her as well. So when another innocent witch was killed, all those frustrations came spilling out and her love turned to hate in an instant because it was easier than addressing the pain that followed. Once she expresses this in the next episode, she starts to see the light and put it together
@@BetterWithBob thanks so much for replying Bob! I’ve really enjoyed your analyses and explanations of various Charmed seasons, characters and episodes and the show overall. I see what your saying and I agree, but I still feel that could’ve been shown better. Or maybe written better? Not sure if it’s an issue with the story telling I have or that it’s an issue in direction choice
It's sad that she didn't regain her empathy power before the show ended. I feel like Phoebe's strength was in understanding others (look at the career she chose). Levitation was too expensive but I don't see how empathy could have been. Plus, it's not the Charmed power I'd want the most (Prue's telekinesis would be) but it's probably the one I would be the most susceptible to get (my hypersensitivity works a bit like that anyway).
I think the empathy power returning would have made the plotlines too complex as no one would be able to hide their feelings around her e.g Kristie
@@xwinwinwinx You're right.
I think you're right but we had the confirmation that her empathy power can be tricked in "I dream of Phoebe".
@@xwinwinwinxit could have been a reduced version of what it was in s6
When I first watched the show in the early 2010s, I was just out of a relationship with someone who'd abused me, and the way Phoebe treated Cole made perfect sense to me. If she says no, that's the answer - but he kept pressuring her. For a while the show portrayed them as meant to be together and I think that's why a lot of viewers got pissed at Phoebe in season 5. But they weren't seeing how gross Cole had become.
Phoebe was my favorite charmed one while growing up, and recently, when I rewatched the show again, it didn’t change.
From more mature glance I noticed, how she fought her way through the stigma of careless child (I was so pissed off when Phoebe actually trained hard to gain some martial skills, and then, because Prue is the oldest, she suddenly knows how to fight without any investment (episode with demonic court when Cole was introduced)), how actually she was wiser then her sisters in first 3 seasons and how show just broke her, dragging through the shittiest circumstances possible (I truly feel pity for their Cole storyline, it’s just bad luck all the way through).
And it was just heartbreaking to see this amicable and caring woman stiffening through the following seasons. I’m just glad she came around and thank you for your video to point this out❤️
Pheobe was my favorite throughout. Then Piper. Paige next and then Prue. I think her story was fitting to what she'd gone through in her life.
I never noticed a Phoebe problem, but I was also young when I watched this show, so maybe I didn't pick up on certain things. Only issue I had is..... I wanted her and Cole to stay together 😩😩 and although this isn't about Phoebe, the show shifted when Shannon left. I didn't care for the other two sisters that ended up joining. Rant over
I hated Phoebe's character from episode 1. Never managed to like her. When they left Cole to rot it sealed the deal for me.
I actually liked Phoebe (maybe because I am the youngest of three sisters, too). However, the entire dynamic between her and Cole I disliked as I absolutely adored her relationship with Coop. Cole was needed though, because he is a huge reason as to why she grew so much. The problem with Phoebe is just that she is unsure what she wants, until later on in the series, and is just trying to find her path. Also, the whole daddy issues thing makes sense regarding her outlook on love and that she is in love with the idea of true love. Rachel McDonald also did a great video on Phoebe and how her trauma with losing her baby and Cole made her who she is, and how everyone swept her trauma under the rug and did not acknowledge it at all.
Videos like this make me realise that the characters of today's TV series with 8 episodes per season, most of which are cancelled after the third season, can never compete with the old characters of TV series like Charmed. All these ups and downs of Phebe's characters are dosed with time, that's why they remain more iconic
This was SPOT ON because Phoebe did have the MOST GROWTH thru out the Series even tho it was a Rollercoaster🎢 Ride but thats what makes for Good TV & what made her character so much fun 🤩 🎉🎉
Exactly when she's down she's proper down but when she's up she's a legend.
Piper didn't have the most growth?
@@TCt83067695yeah she did go back abd rewatch s1 to s8 piper grow alot
Omg the hairstyles being mentioned. So glad you said it. Because that fringe she had. Oh god.
I always liked Phoebe's full arc. "Phoebe problem" indeed. lol She went through it, like you said, and really reacted much like many would. It was realistic that she wouldn't react the way season 1,2,3 Phoebe would, as she had been through so much. So even though she is bad, she is so bad she's good. lol
Phoebe has always been my favourite.
She was more serious and depressed later on, which is understandable after everything she's been through.
I love her with Cole and I wished she ended up with him.
I watched a video saying Phoebe may never have gotten over the loss of her unborn baby at the end of season 4. She was obsessed with Wyatt after he was born and her quest for that future daughter might show that. I think that's an interesting way of seeing what happened with her.
Yeah I buy that interpretation too
I agree with you that Phoebe grounds them in s1. Constance based Phoebe on herself. Also I love how Phoebe is the one who emotionally connects to innocents like Brent Miller and Aviva. She’s also the one who encourages Prue and Piper in their dating lives, like when she takes care of Quake to encourage Piper to go out with Josh. She is such a sweetheart back then!