Are Healing Spells UNFAIR in PvP? - Elden Ring Controversy
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- Опубликовано: 17 сен 2023
- Healing incantations and miracles have been the subject of controversy amongst the Elden Ring and Dark Souls PvP community since a long time. But what cause all of this ruckus to form in the first place? And is it justified? Today Ranni the witch tells you all about it.
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I don't really use heals for dueling. It's a personal choice of mine. But I do keep it around in case some undesireable shitter comes along lol. Do you think healing incants are fair?
Healing spells be allowed in duels. They are a core feature of faith builds. I can also acknowledge they need a balance. The weaker the heal spel, the faster the spell should be to cast. This way it only works against people running to hotswap their whole loadout. Or very passive players trying to play via distance. With little hyperarmor I think it'd be a fair fix. Telling faith builds not to use the ability they are centered around is like telling a str build not to 2h because they get a bunch of free level ups via two handing. And yes, healing spells should have little hyper armor so regular weapon swings can disrupt it.
A pair of eyes required to see how to deal with from a person who only uses one eye. *slow clap*
It's a bit of an unfair advantage but it really isn't like it makes someone undefeatable so you just have to deal the damage all over again and kill the enemy
The builds, weapons and spells the people complain about are mostly not even close to being as overpowered as the redditors claim them to be
Regen is fine but mass healing is broken and for chumps who can't play
I’m still trying to understand how it isn’t fair to be able to use the spells you equipped?
I kinda wish urgent heal was actually fast, cause it kinda sucks and it's even slower then the normal heal (and even though you can move around you can maybe walk like 3 feet)
Preach!
Ngl i expected that miracle to work same way as the healing gems of DS2
@@mark0183 While I agree. However they probably didn't do that specifically because of how much people would cry over having life gem like mechanic returning.
I mean life gems were so hated they they were removed from Bloodborn. In the playable public test for the game had life gem like item in as a rare consumable but were removed from the game when the game was fully released.
@@Warcrafter4 I can see where you're coming from but I don't think that's the case.
I think life gems were poorly designed (and hated) with compounding problems; they were quick to use in a slow paced game, agility made them even faster to use, and they healed gradually so you could stack several at once and possibly tank more damage then with just drinking from an estus flask.
If you could walk at normal speed then it would be encroaching on life gem usefulness.
@y
LTWarcrafter4
Thank you Miyazaki for allowing heal spells in the colosseums, truly the most elden of ring moments.
Doesn't matter. FromSoft cannot do it.
Their PVP IS SH°T and I'm tired of pretending its not.
The lag and consolic controls make all "soulsgames" unncessarily tedious.
So in the end all meta's don't matter. It's sh°t anyway with the lag and no way to use macro's.
@@LawfulBased if you need to use a macro that's sad
Git gud
@@LawfulBasedhave you considered cope and seethe
@wearehiddenservices5573
I already regreted having failed my endurance check on not speaking out about it so yeah. I had this discussion way too often. ^^
The no healing rule started way back in Demon's Souls because that game used farmable consumable items for healing rather than a set amount of flasks.
You could get into situations where both players had 99 of the strongest healing item equipped and a PVP invasions took 30 minutes to finish, so the Demon's Souls fightclubs introduced the no healing items rule (healing miracles were allowed though if I recall correctly).
Funnily enough the community always agreed with the solution Fromsoft implemented in the Elden Ring arena that being that healing items should be restricted but all other healing effects are fair game.
Yeah, faith healing was allowed, at least pretty consistently, but the community was absolutely tiny and more fragmented when compared to the current moment, so I'm sure it varied. Also, to me it seems that the "no pharma allowed" rule evolved separately to DeS during the early times of DS (some DeS players started chugging with it no longer being a stackable, but stopped again for duel balance) and for a completely different reason, despite it also existing before. History might not repeat, but it tends to rhyme and whatnot.
What you say in the end, implying healing miracles are usable in pvp in DeS is right, but it’s not really applicable here for elden ring in my opinion. In DeS, you cannot double-stack items to make your cast animations really fast, and there is also no poise/hyper armor available in this case, meaning punishing the heals is much easier with the long cast times. The biggest healing miracle is Recovery if I remember correctly, and the animation is QUITE long
In essence what I’m trying to say is that in DeS, you could not heal 90% of your health in less than a second while stacking poise
@@ZaddyGohan that's a fair point. Cast times were longer and running away was harder as well since stamina was a much more limited resource and levels were narrower in design. Those things made it much more likely to be punished for healing with miracles that's not something I thought about when making my post.
@@MaxTale You're somewhat right, but there are things you said that don't properly stack up.
Firstly, casting speed only negates the first part of the pre-animation and does very little for the crouch buffs IIRC (it's not a static %, but variable animation by animation, with running casts for example gaining virtually 0% speed from the full 70 dex). Also, I think that the 1.15s was with the full 70 vDex, so sub-second heal shouldn't be possible at all.
Second, you don't get active poise for casting heals, unlike how you could in DS3 for example and that hasn't changed in 1.10, if I'm not totally wrong (haven't played a lot during this patch). You get poise damage; you get canceled.
Third, you can get hyper armor only by using endure with another weapon, before even starting the cast.
Finally, to put this all together: You have to switch to endure weapon, use endure, switch to Azur's (which most builds wouldn't use softswap space for, not worth outside meme combos) after the animation, then start the Erdtree heal and go through all of that at once, without your opponent catching on and either aborting you with anything OR backstab punishing you after the 62 frames of cast lag before roll. That takes way more than under a second, no matter which way you slice it and takes a ton of very apparent preparation. And comparing punishment windows to DeS without noting the vastly faster punishment tools is also something to consider. This ain't you grandpa's firestorm anymore.
I still 100% agree with the point that just fast-roll spamming away for a (fairly) guaranteed heal shouldn't become the meta or even be a thing at all, but that's an issue of effect stacking and fast-roll, not healing miracles.
@@ZaddyGohanAren't faith builds in DeS centered around regen items instead? IIRC health regen effects in that game scaled with faith and equipment level. In the time it takes to run away and cast heal you could stay on offense and regen the health instead.
Wait for your opponent to stack 409878493 buffs:😃😃😄😄😄😁😀🤙🤙 your opponent uses the right moment to heal himself:🤬😡🤬😠🤬😡🤬🤬🤬🤬👿👿👿
I think using buffs makes a noob but not as much as fully healing yourself. Especially when you are getting your butt handed to you.
This is why it's the objectively and morally correct move to use Law of Regression to piss everyone off.
Most people who use healing spells are also running other spell spam nonsense and constantly running away making for miserable duels. By all means play your way but don’t act surprised when people alt+F4 in response to your nonsense
In Dark Souls 2, Wrath of the Gods had a long cast time, and it had the same animation as a healing incantation. I loved going into the arena, having a normal duel until under 50% HP, and then running away to "heal" while my unsuspecting opponent ran right at me.
I did that in ds2 but I used the monastery scimitar to parry. When they were sat down on their ass I’d WoG them for full hp 😂
Some select and very special people also hated WoG in DS2 to an unhealthy degree, solely due to how stupidly strong it was in DS1, despite the DS2 version being so much worse. Pure loaned hatred with no brainpower expended between the games. Weird stuff.
@@qwormuli77 Bro wog in ds2 was definitely slower but you know that shit could hit for like 4k damage and instakill 🤣 it was pretty easy to abuse
Ah the old bait and switch, respect.
I used to do something like that at the start of a duel, I would cast homing crystal soul mass and backstep in my opponent's direction. Either they would try to go for a backstab, in which case I would simply lock on to them, launching the soul proyectiles, taking a big chunk of their health OR they would try to roll past me, in which case I would hit them with a crystal buffed dagger (with stone ring) stunt locking them and leaving them helpless against the soul mass.
8/10 times this nasty strat just deleted them then and there, if not they would just panic roll away with a pixel of health left in which case a common soul arrow or a well timed throwing knife mid roll was enough to kill them. Good times.
Pls i am just a hexer dont insta nuke me with your godly flashbang
It annoys me but yet I’m never mad or blame the person you have to more blame yourself for not applying enough pressure to punish a healer
Light roll goes whoosh
@@Rexis102 playing a spear or a halberd to compensate the lack of range is not hard, applied with sleep he cant run away forever.
@@ExTremZero you shouldn’t have to weapon swap to deal with them. The fact that it’s necessary is a blight upon this game’s balancing
@@Rexis102 thats the balance, dude have you ever played PvP? Bro dont tell me you are just carring one weapon in you inf inventory.
I bet you are a guy who tried to counter BHS with an Ultra Greatsword...
@@ExTremZero that’s a lot of empty presumption you’ve got, there. I have about 100+ weapons in my inventory. But the fact that one strategy completely nullifies 90% of weapon classes is very much a balancing problem.
I shouldn’t have to hardswap to a halberd to catch a mage that light rolls across the arena, but I end up having to do it anyways. People hardswapping to 4 different weapons just to get an advantage over your selected weapon class is just pathetic. If you’re good, you can win with the weapon you’ve chosen, maybe 1 other weapon. But there comes a point where you’re not winning from skill, you’re winning by surprise factor (if you’re constantly throwing out AoWs) or by weapon class advantage with how many weapons you can pull out of your ass, and that’s not very conducive of good gameplay or good fundamentals.
I love how you completely ignored my point about balance. Hardswapping isn’t the balance, if it was, we’d all just be swapping to halberd with offhand thrusting sword, dual pikes, dual lances, or dual straight swords when we got low on HP. That’s boring, who cares if you won if you had to play lame to get the win in the first place? You didn’t improve, you didn’t learn anything, you just used the top setup.
If we want to be presumptuous: unlike you, I prefer to play with a variety of weapons, not just my favorite poke of the week. Meta is boring. Try something fun an unique for once in your life.
That's the reason i don't do Pvp; here in Italy we use the term 'seghe mentali' to refer those who overthink and worry too much about nothing,often with a serious tone( i'm talking of the whole community,even this dude)
mozzarella
Pizza pie
I myself have a problem with overthinking stuff and such. I've yet to do PVP either in Elden Ring. I'm kind of trying to work my way towards being able to fight Reikard and Mohg next.
Does that translate to "mind saws" or something like that?
@@SuscriptorJusticiero yeah pretty much!
Go to a fight
After taking damage
Endure + erdtree heal
They get angry aka more likely to get aggressive
After taking more damage (they will THINK you will heal)
Endure + Ruin
If they survive now they dont know if punishing you is safe
Rinse and repeat until one of you is dead
Enjoy the salt
Small note : if they are a mage always remember to endure + barrier of gold (magic damage begone)
bog is nerfed to only 20%, no?
@@lt9539
True, but its 20% of 90% of their damage type...so it still helps.
Even if i think they went overboard...
Heal spells in a vacuum are not ridiculous to deal with in the arena. However when used on a light roller or someone with bhs who can instantly create distance is where it becomes a problem. Also having several blue flasks in the arena means it’ll happen more than once
Ranged aow and fan of knives go brrrrrr
Don’t forget the dimwits who use card board boxed internet routers to recover sooner before you realized they already casted it before you can punish them
@@duskndawm Never heard of endure
@@duskndawmah yes, truly the most damaging item, a knife, it can offset the 80% of hp a player in the other side of the arena can get in 2 seconds
@@user-jr3zr2mp9c but here's the neat trick! It doesn't take 2 seconds to throw the knife! And if you hit it you will interrupt them, not allowing them to heal! Crazy I know.
It's sort of a unwritten rule that in games, healing yourself is cool but enemies healing themselves is bs. I guess this caries to Multiplayer for some.
Using DSP’s rage quit moment from demons souls is extremely based and I love you for it. Thank you
Yea, that was hilariously unexpected.
dsp is slowing losing it
I have a suspicion that listing what isn't allowed in duels would be faster than what is.
Nerf everything I don't like, buff everything I like except for when my opponent is using it
What shouldn’t be allowed, Healing/Team killing.
THIS IS NOT A FIGHTING GAME. Tactile skill matters just as much as game knowledge in an RPG getting mad someone's build is better than yours is peak showerless behavior
I couldn't agree with you more. Elden Ring is NOT a pvp game, it just has a pvp option. Any game where you can be an average joe shmoe and pick up a one shot build on youtube that'll probably never get fully nerfed because you're using multiple items/buffs to one shot your enemy or bring them uncomfortably close to getting one shot isn't a fighting game.
My opinion...
1. All is fair in love, and war.
2. Fight dirty. Gentleman rules are for gentlemen.
3. Be polite. Be efficient. Most importantly, be sure to have a way to deal with anyone or anything.
I never really understood the mindset either. Healing is part of a toolkit that someone has to build for like any weapon, spell, or art. If your play style and build struggles to counter this strategy then it might be time to make some adjustments if it bothers you so much.
Especially considered any build can use ashes that stop it in it's tracks like storm blade or beasts roar.
@@xenosayain1506 Not of the one healing uses Endure.
by the time the casting animation starts endure's effects are over.@@icebox1954
Shitter spotted
I keep an Erdtree Heal in my back pocket for special occasions (for players who BM or abuse purposely broken builds) but don't use it in normal dueling. Luckily I find that I don't have to use it often.
I love how there's a warning for the incantation healing Late Game Crucible Knights
I never even knew this wtf.
I have a character that is built specifically for healing. I use him mostly for co op with my friends. I decided to use him in 2v2 and 3v3 fights tho, and everyone threw dung at me. Then I changed his name to free healthcare and now everyone knows beforehand I'm the party healer and no one minds anymore because it's just part of the meme. I dislike healing in 1v1 but at the end of the day it's just a game, and it's not even the worst thing one could do in a match. Souls fans should just chill
i thought it was understood that the no healing rule only applied to flasks. spells are part of the faith toolkit and are totally valid
If the dual allows the use of healing flasks then healing spells are fine my issue is when duals don’t allow healing flasks but allow healing spells it means if your build is more of a melee build and the other is a caster build you are at an immediate disadvantage because you didn’t speck into that
Just grind.
Grinding has nothing to do with it I have two 300+ hours characters in elden ring I prefer playing melee builds. Refer to previous statement as to why
Healing with spells is fine, but this heal is bit too strong for how quick it is. Healing to full in one second is kinda hard to punish. There should be some middle ground, like more in DS3, where stronger heals were generally slow and best thing you could do is Heal Aid which is very fast but doesn't heal too much.
that heal spell sucks in PvP most people will kill u because how slow it is
Poison and rot existed dude
@@darkdeath47xxxah yes, the slowest heal, erdtrees heal
Urgent Heal is everything but urgent too. Whoever made the heals now didn't really think it through.
Didn't DS3 had a similar issue with Proyected Heal? People losing a duel would just run to a wall and cast that miracle recovering a third of their life bar in a couple of seconds.
Honestly, I know that miracles were hurting in DS3 but Ringed City gave it the 2 most annoying spells to deal with in both ganks and arena duels.
Holy shit, loved the El Chavo del 8 in the background on the duel explanation, truly one of the moments in life
Erdtree heal is the biggest of the problem here, you should not be able to get 80% of your hp back in 1.5 as said in the video. However lower tier healing and even endure heal can be punished with backstabs or a free hit if you pay attention and arent playing extremely passive. I think healing to win in a normal non-shitter duel is a little bit petty and I admit I get a bit mad, but I keep count of the heals and where i would have won to try stay abit sane. If someone wants to heal in a duel let them play how they want, just like with people using any other strong set ups its on you to use the correct counter play to win regardless.
As a pvp player with a pure strength build with funny jump attack capability, I am normal and I can be trusted around people healing mid fight :))
My favorite part about every healing incantation. Is that it causes people to duck their heads directly infront of the lock on. Which i usually respond with a KUKRI. which does a critical bleed.
Edit: i love making unicorns out of players
The way you deal with erdtree heal is to Alt+F4 and open up Dark Souls 2. It's really easy.
It's possible to put your back up against a wall and use Endure + Erdtree Heal for a completely safe, no-risk heal as long as you can tank the damage you'll recieve in the next 2 seconds
Add holy ground for even more damage negation too
As someone who never heals in duels unless I'm fighting scaredy-cat mages, Urgent Heal definitely needs to be like twice as fast as what it currently is for how pathetic its healing potential is, and Erdtree Heal definitely needs to be 50% slower than Great/Lord Heal for how much more it heals by comparison; that's all the change the healing spells need for PvP -- and frankly for PvE as well in the case of Urgent Heal.
Will it still feel scummy? Kinda, but at least it'll be on you if you just stop and stare instead of taking advantage of the fact the enemy would be standing still for like 2 whole seconds in the process of using Le Full Heal.
I played like 1000 hours at the Colosseum and have only met about 3 people who use Erdtree Heal during the match so far. Damn lucky for me.
what???? i have to chainsaw 3 or more healers in 1-2 hours.
I don't wanna be self-absorbed but why do I feel like Ranni being extra caring towards us was my fault from pointing it out last time?
I'm scared but happy
Im developing a kink for ranni's voice and accent
erdtree heal should just have at least a 3 second cast time and imo people would stop malding about it
Agreed. Since day 1 Iwanted to see the lower tier healing spells heal a bit more and have a faster cast time while your hyper strong burst heal spells have a long cast time. Make it a risk reward situation so that they are all good spells.
If your enemy heals its because you didnt smash them with your weapon while they were casting it
I agree, but srsly a full heal in a few seconds is too OP they should tone it down a little in pvp or something 😂
With my currently build I do have heals inbuilt into them, only thing is I dont use them in duels unless someone does it first. But that is usually my rule from the old souls games too. No heal unless someone else does so first, passive regen doesnt really count all that much since it isn't instant 1900-2100 hp restore.
However that would usually exclude pvp outside of duels as I usually like playing a support healer character type, so it's fair to say that in invasion, I heal
I never stop myself. Its a mechanic. I dont like hard swpping and people just say "if devs didnt want it they wouldnt let us do it". Its the same for healing incants. The devs totally know theyer there and they allow it so its fair game. Unless its a glitch/exploit go ham.
I think that using heal for a faith build is the same like a freaking status appling build is, if for you healing is forbidden then even poisoning and bleeding should be not allowed since is not coming from you real attack power, but from a status that you apply
I feel some problems with things said in favor of healing,please correct me if i am wrong
1."If we are able to do so much damage to force opponent to heal then we can probably do it again" statment is not that true when opponents are matched in skill ,if what you say is true then in tournaments player who wins first match easily should also be able to do in remaining matches as he/she did in first match , healing resets every match and will heavily favor faith builds on both ends .
2.When counter healing with running attack you can always wait for your opponent to runout of stamina during running attack and then go for heal as shown by you.
2. For backstab during recovery you need to be close enough and its quite difficult to do that in big arena.
3.To keep magic or storm blade limits the range of builds and endure before heal will give back 1600+ HP, subtract 400 dmg by strom blade still healing will be viable.
4. The margin of error to punish these heals is very less,even one lapse of concentration and your opponent is back yo full health ,you can make a comeback but again it will require Godlike play from your side when opponents are equally matched.
5.The defence for healing started with argument that in invasions the invader is fighting multiple opponents and its viable to do that but now this concept got carried to one on one duel .
When I saw the Chavo Del 8 clip with Don Ramón and Profesor Girafales in a fist fight, I fucking lost it, legit fell off my chair holding my sides from laughter.
6:46 Hate also comes from prolonging the fight unnecessarily, if you are the first to estus heal technically you lost the fight
I don't quite agree with that, let's say we're in a duel, and right as combat starts I completely swap build on and catch you off guard hitting you with a sneaky spell taking 90% of your hp, but it's not enough to kill you, and I have no follow up to pressure or finish you off with. Should I still be considered the winner there if you heal? Or should you be allowed to adjust your strategy now that you know the warrior with the giant hammer was actually a mage just wearing different gear at the start of the match.
Personally I don't think failing to finish you should count as my win.
Been sneaky can be apart of duels so yea if you hit someone with that that is funny and a win
@@findot777 so purposely misleading an opponent before a duel so they act the wrong way isn't dishonorable, but doing an obvious heal is? Are we using the same definition of dishonorable?
@@nunote2362 it is difficult to be sneaky but not to heal pretty sure you can just light roll away use endure then heal
Why would I want a fight to end quickly in the first place
The way I see it, healing is just another way of using a resource in a fight. It has a fairly ling cad time and uses a big chunk of fp. You could spend your time healing up, or dealing damage. One is safer, but has less of an impact on the fight overall. I think people just get mad seeing their progress get wiped away.
Effortlessly wiped away.
Healing spells be allowed in duels. They are a core feature of faith builds. I can also acknowledge they need a balance. The weaker the heal spel, the faster the spell should be to cast. This way it only works against people running to hotswap their whole loadout. Or very passive players trying to play via distance. With little hyperarmor I think it'd be a fair fix. Telling faith builds not to use the ability they are centered around is like telling a str build not to 2h because they get a bunch of free level ups via two handing. And yes, healing spells should have little hyper armor so regular weapon swings can disrupt it.
If youre mad about somebody healing in pvp, you just need to pressure them more so they dont have time
I think healing is an issue like it is things like dual spears, something that is in the game but its still unfair, the amount of heal doesnt matter if its well balanced, recovering 1500 from 1 seccond heal its just not fair, it can take 3 secconds and be something better but my personal modification will be than the spell heal you depending on the amount of time you are casting it and also adding a 0.5s delay after you relase the button to actually apply the heal so you cant just wait until the last frame to relase it and tank dmg
Genuinely the only issue is the speed. It's so absurdly fast with how bad latency already is in like every duel ever :(
Agreed. To me making cast time increase with the tier of the healing spell. Lords and erdtree should be slower than the rest. Make it a risk reward. That way you can't burst heal in someone's face. It also let's you burst heal when someone runs to hotswap a whole loadout.
@@xenosayain1506 wasn't it like that in previous games? I'm pretty sure healing spell cast time scaled with strength I haven't really used them in ER do they all have universal time?
@@sevirakalau2171 yes and yes. I ran a faith build in ds3 and had to projectile heal when people backed off cause it was quick and maybe healed me 20%. Ds3's version bountiful sunlight was like a 3 sexvast time but 100% heal in comparison. Granted in ds3 you could cheese with poise casting via talisman.
In elden ring they age universal. Heal, great heal, lords heal, and erdtree heal have the same cast time. Just higher cost as you go up.
In 3 heal, med, great heal, and bountiful sunlight had different cast times via tier.
@@xenosayain1506 W-why... it it was good before... w-why would they change it like that? I don't understand
I could be wrong but I think the main problem is when people use heals with light roll or BHS and dash to the other side of the arena and occasionally behind the pillar in the Caelid, unless you have those options at hand yourself to try and chase them down you’re basically screwed and may as well wave the white flag then and there 🏳
It is fair to use them. They take so long to cast that if your opponent heals mid-battle it's on you for allowing it. Also, it's part of faith builds.
Sure you cna hit them after they cast it, but they still got back a good 3 quarters of their health. No matter how many times you hit them after they cast they'll still have more health than they began with
@@thecatinthehatwithabat9903 yeah but healing is the strenght of faith builds. The build sacrifices a lot of melee dmg, defense and have awkward offensive attack spells. Its a fair trade.
I hate it because it feels to me like a way to get around estus heal restrictions. It also incentivises people stall for time and spend the fight running away to heal instead of fighting. And its frustrsting.
99% of sorcery players run away when you get within 20 feet of them i see no reason why i shouldn’t abuse the gap in distance
@dontassociate literally every spell in the game has a dodge window especially the spammy ones, you are a nerd that can't play
All about pressure. If you are up against a faith build. If someone sprints away(and I cannot catch him since we all have same sprint speed). I'm gonna use a burst heal while people swap their whole loadout for low health.
Only thing I'll give complainers is the higher tier the healing spell. The longer the cast time should be.
@@xenosayain1506
Its more about the principle. I dont wanna spend the fight chasing people around the arena, I wanna fight them and I want them to fight me. It prolngs the fight more than neccesary.
Obviously, 9 times out of ten they cant get enough distance and I can punish it just fine. Though as mentioned in the video, Erdtree Heal gives enough hp to make a trade with almost any attack worth it as there is no attack fast enough that can get its damage anywhere close to equal the heal.
And again, it just makes me feel like people are trying to get around the estus heal restrictions.
@@goosemanVEVO it's just poor balancing. Principle means nothing. It is a video game people pay to play. Therefore it depends on your principles. If you apply teal life principles to video game matches good on you. One of mine is to never let salt factories dictate how I use my entertainment products(by salt factories I mean flamers who lose their mind when they see something they dislike). So what principle do you refer to in the games TOS? In principle to me it should be spammed into oblivion, and complained about on bandai forums to force a patch. Make the devs do their jobs for balancing.
Me playing pure melee.
Opponent uses zoning spell/incantation/AoW so I back off to not let them get free damage.
They heal.
Me "Alright" Sucks but I don't always have storm blade on hand or enough health to safely run into the zoning tool.
It's not really fair and in these cases I like to keep a headcount of how many times I've "killed them" before they get me once. Sometimes there is a massive skill gap so I disrespectfully stand right next to them doing nothing as they heal.
"It's not always about the money spiderman" lets pretend money is swapped for wins or kills.
Just keep a few hot or softswaps. Beasts roar, storm blade, thunderbolt, and glintstone pebble all stop healing in their tracks. You have the ranged ability of a caster, even as pure str. You just gotta use your toolbelt.
People casting Soothing sunlight in ds3 with poise built into it have taught me to never ever give someone enough space to heal. I do wish the time for erd tree heal was a bit longer though. Bump it up to 2 seconds seems reasonable.
I’ve started to run healing spells on most of my faith builds, not because when I’m low I heal more so that if my opponent pulls out a heal I don’t wanna be the only one with half health.
Aaaand yet another way the games design forces players into str/fth builds
I'm glad Ranni is back to giving good health advice again 😃
Another great video mate! I bow and attack. If combatant gives an opening, such as healing, I attack from range and they lose more HP than they gain. If they buff, I do law of regression.😂🎉
I was expecting a Melina appearance for some reason sense the last healing you covered is used by her if you summon her to fight with you
I always thought Flasks were off-liimits (except for invasions), but spells were okay, since they're a lot slower and riskier than using a flask. Basically if you let your opponent get one off, it was a skill issue.
That said, I don't play PvP so I have no dog in this fight.
No hago duelos, pero siendo la única forma de curarse en 1v1 tampoco lo veo mal ya que tienes que gastar stats en ello
No realmente
I lile healing cause it makes the opponent angrier and as a result, not think clearly. So it makes it easier to kill them when all they see is red.
i like when people heal. using chainsaw is very fun.
Can't kill em if they quit out lol
@@lukaogadze5071 But thats a glitch and that is a huge L to do no matter the situation
@@merfyn4838 what makes something right and something wrong? does blocking elevator as invader is ok? thing is there are many shitty things that you can do in game that are not glitch but still wrong.
@@merfyn4838 blocking elevator is intended mechanic btw. should invaders do that?
I don't care about the healing by itself - I think Erdtree Heal is overtuned, but I don't care that it works in duels.
what I do care about and have an issue with, is that people run away constantly so they can use the spell. that's just annoying and silly.
I go into duels to fight people, not chase after them for minutes because they can't accept an L and try to get health back. especially when they light roll spam away...
is it hard to beat/play around? no, not at all. is it annoying and prolongs the fights unnecessarily due to running away constantly? yes, absolutely.
I love my faith builds.
One of my favorite builds was a female tarnished in bloody finger maiden robes wielding a winged scythe and dual hoslow whips. Much of my spells were centered around blood, but I kept heals in my back pocket. I swapped a lot between going in for melee and casting spells, but I only ever healed if my opponent would abandon the fray. Sometimes this made the difference, sometimes it didn’t. I always said that if they didn’t want me to heal, they’d keep up the pressure on me. Glad to see a video reinforcing the idea that heal spells are just another part of the game that you need to play around, rather than demand people to not use them at all.
They should ban cry babies 😂
The E-R-D-tree heal lol
USed to be some sort of referee during pvp's when my friend did duells at the raya Lucaria entrance. Even named myself Bufferfree cause I would always take away buffs at the start of a duel :D People who were stacking like 5 buffs mostly left right away
Kinda hard to be mad at something that a attack, any attack, is able to hard counter. We’re guaranteed to chip off at least 1/4 of the recovered health if we attack on the back end of the erdtree heal, half if we apply pressure, 70% or more with a backstab, and the opponent just gave up 1/5 of their possible max fp pool. Not to mention, if I can do it once, I can do it again, especially since they have less fp to chuck miracles at me with.
Because people lack the win by any means necessary way of battle. They hate it, it is "dishonorable" to them. They want everyone to adhere to their self imposed rules for dueling and they are discombobulated when you don't follow their rules and you kill them. In duels I don't expect any etiquette, It only took one nasty experience for me to realize that no one can be trusted. So, if I'm shown respect I respond in kind. If I am shown no mercy I will respond in kind.
IDK about you, but healing outside of estus flask in mid combat in any of the souls games is generally not a good idea. They take too long and are easily punished. They're great for exploring a new area, letting you slong on longer to hopefully reach the next bonfire in time. They can also work during specific boss attacks or stagger states, where they either wiff hard or give you enough breathing room to recuperate. Though that is also risky, and likely going to get you killed if you don't know what you're doing.
But if I can get a heal spell off in pvp, the opponent let me. Either by not being able to properly punish, or willingly so out of mercy.
Though I am also the type of person who views that if it's part of the game, it's fair game. Even if, and especially if it feels cheap, overpowered, or dishonest. Git gud, and learn how to counter it.
Don't Healing spells also take stamina? I know they did in DS2
It takes 1.5 seconds to replenish your entire hp bar
@@user-jr3zr2mp9c Then you just need kill them faster than that
Personally I keep a healing spell on hand for when fighting people who want to keep distance all the time (spell spammers, running away as soon as they take damage, ect.) Otherwise I don't use them for duels. Teamfights everything if fair game
I think my main problem with it in arena is that it’s too fast and only faith builds have access to the potential for a heal. They’re no equivalents for other builds and albinairic pots don’t interrupt the heal.
Personally would rule against it for duels but that’s just my opinion.
I'd say gradual healing spells are fine, but straight up having a spell that heals almost your whole healthbar in a pvp mode where your not supposed to heal basicly the same way with a flask feels pretty pissy. Either way, it sucks but you have to deal with it. It's a cheap way of bypassing flask restrictions but hey, them having to whip out a heal spell to beat me feels like a dub in of itself. All the more, if they have to whip it out constantly.
I love the mind-reading though. "Not supposed to heal." With more than one health flask, sure, like the Devs implemented. It isn't bypassing flask restrictions. You're acting as if people who use healing incants are cheating.
@@gogeta667 They're shitters, not cheaters. Like a Moonveil spamming 900HP host thinking he's skilled because his butt budies ganked the invader. Lowest of the low.
@@gogeta667with the amount of hp restored that quickly they might as well. Granted, this is Elden Ring - everyone "cheats" in some ways.
@@kindlingking Unless the devs come out and state that the healing incants are all unintendedly over-tuned, I'll not consider healing in the colliseum to be "cheating."
Know what else is pretty pissy? Having a build that can wipe out 80% of someones hp bar. Elden Rings damage scaling is and has always been greater than the vigor scaling, so excuse me if I pull out Lords heal because I don't want to get one shot with Crimson Amber and 99 Vigor.
Lol I heal all the time, nothing is more entertaining than watching people lose their mind over an ability literally in the game. As if their bleed builds or hyper armor strength builds were any better. Honestly people can use whatever they want to their hearts content
If you play right healing is easy to punish. You should never be far from your enemy to the point where they can heal without issue.
I would just became the most passive regen users if i saw somebody use healing spell. Combining it with bhs or qs weapon.
Gus
It’s honestly Maidenless during a duel and 90% of the time it’s the biggest db’s that do it. If faith was super weak it would be fine, but it’s just as strong as every other build. Imagine facing someone with essentially ~3800 hp while you have ~2100. When I know someone is a healer, I don’t feel bad and spamming spells at all
You dont have to be neither the healer.
This guy's pissed his 30 stacked stars of ruin/star shower spam got rolled out of and erdtree negated the damage.
Me who constantly uses healing spells because I find them cooler than getting drunk 😎
(I am a PvEr mostly)
In no heal duels it's basically a "no I didn't die cause I got magic armor" kid move
In general I think if someone gets a healing spell off on you, *git gud*
people who heal should take what the black guy with lightening said as valid advice
Bruh 💀
Low tier god is who this refers to.
still solid advice@@javierfraire8741
Healing is hated because not everyone might have a build that allows for the use of any healing incantation, and it gives one side an unfair advantage.
But I don't see any issue in using healing against mages
Mages are easy tf you mean 💀
Every build has advantages /disadvantages though.
@@deputyhobbs9683 But extremely annoying with how they just run away so much
@xenosayain1506 True, but duels are usually done without healing, which is why people hate healing as it ruins the fun of both being one hit away from death, just for the other to heal to nullify your damage progress.
@@Mad_Peasant_King and people complai lm about the range of sorceries. The sheer upsurdity of thrusting sword builds or pocket sand builds. You just don't like it which is fair. Doesn't mean you get to dictate how people play the game they bought.
I think it's stupid any pure dex or stupid build has the range pressure of a spellcaster via ashes of war, doesn't mean they can't use them.
0:56 I wasn't expecting an Chavo clip outtanowhere, I'm laughing more than I should lol.
I Think it'd be Fine to Use Healing Spells in Duels. I Would Say the Same about Crimson Flasks. Both Players Have the Same amount of Flasks or the Amount they Want to Use and it's Fine
I think healing is oK, it's part of your build. Your opponent decided to put those skill points in to damage output. I'll stop healing when there's a way to remove 42 points from your strength or intelligence stat. Next you'll want us stop using defense buffs (they basically did that for you in the latest patch) Not to mention people always use bestial vitality and no one seems to care about that, It's still healing. Maybe a fix is to reduce damage negation by 10% after a heal for 30 seconds or something.
💀
Unironically yes, nobody needs buffs lol
@@jarlbalgruuf2415 gay
If you allow a heal to go off in a duel. You deserve it for not punishing the 3sec animation
If you allow me to setup a chainsaw, you deserve it for not punishing me in 4 seconds.
what part of1.5 second did u not understand
I like how you added devil trigger
I feel like having the heal animation should take maybe 2 to three seconds would balance it out, it would give your foe a chance to innterupt the healing at least and give more risk reward to it
I feel that if you use healing spells in the arena it kinda defeats the whole point of not being allowed to use flasks
Why not. Healing spells have been the core of faith builds since souls 1.
Healing is literally a core part of incantations
@@lordvasha5246 if it’s fair to use healing incantations then why can’t melee builds use flasks?
Flasks don't require timing to pull off. You can be in arms reach, roll backwards and you'll regen as much hp as a great heal. You can't do the same for incantations cause of the startup and endlag
cringe. its a massive improvement to the disabled flask. if someone runs forever (especially on light roll) its super easy for them to get it off. "do a qte that you almost will never be in a position for" isnt a real defense. in that way its almost like a defensive pvp waterfowl lol. the whole le crying reddit !!! schtick is obv just overcompensation cause u dislike when ur forced to cheese. and saying fromsoft intended it has never been an argument nor is it the topic of discussion. its a ridiculous advantage that doubles triples or quintuples somebodys health (or more) for nearly zero commitment. imagine if there was a spell that cut ur received damage to 25% and had the same cast speed lol
get a load of this guy
I feel like, while it might be slightly demoralizing, this is the counter against passive players, if you are running away to much, I’ll heal, if I have a fault build
honestly feels like those who think that healing incantations should be banned hasn't mastered the art of pressuring yet
I do think it is frustrating, but considering we allow mages in for PvP, it's hard to complain about incantations lol
are there really ppl crying about heal miracles? Bro they need a year to cast if you just let em do it without punishment, its your fault and you should blame yourself not the user. There is no "fairness" in Dark Souls PvP nor in Elden Ring, using such term in a game build without fairness is just dumb.
You somehow stretched 1.5 seconds to a full year? Aren't you a special little boi
@@Snoike 1.5 secs in a fight with constant pressure feels like a year, i bet you never played pvp against tryhards.
that 1.5 sec doesnt matter if the ping is high which 90% present of the time it is.
if a single mistake can cost your ENTIRE progress it is not fun and just dumb@@ExTremZero
@@ExTremZero Oh really? Explain to me then why healing incants are a bannable offense in tryhard tournaments and ladder matches. You really are a special boi trying to flex about stuff you know nothing about.
"yeah bro just punish the healing spell that:
- comes out in less than 2 seconds
- heals for 80% of your opponent health
- outheals pretty much any type of punish
- can be used as many times as they want
- becomes unpunishable due to latency
- ENDURE ---> ERDTREE HEAL lul"
i swear bro It works" lmao btw:
Erdtree Seal +10 and Erdtree heal = 1.6k heal at 60 faith and 2.1k at 80 lmao
Im gonna be honest i agree with the sweats and redditors on this one if you use the heal spells (over time regen is fine imo actually just not the insta ones) it should be banned and anyone using is loser.
This would have been a good video to address why regen is also banned in tournaments, bringing up cases like that old 90 minute duel that went on forever due to the regen.
My favourite build is a fat cleric that focuses on healing miracles using the mace to force them into close in combat, and when they run away from me mace the slow healing over time starts to kick in, makes them panic and commit mistakes, nullifying the mace short range.
I mean, with how little FP most duelists and pvpers have in general, spending 50-90% of your fp on a heal that can be taken away in 2-3 hits is fine. Sure it CAN be frustrating, but thats the only real benefit to it... it tilts people, makes them sloppy and aggressive or they just give up. the heal was never the issue in elden ring. I'd rather someone with 300fp heal constantly than ever fight dual spears again. There are so many good options to close that gap and punish the heal, even if you can't get a backstab on someone you can't be mad at them if you've decided to let them space you.
Get good at using catch flame if you have a faith build. Ever since the poise update they lose their mind when you get to outspam their crouch. Jumping CF, running CF, standing CF (for turn and burn). Have weapon on main hand that can combo with it like zwei or cipher pata, we bing chilling as they mald.
Healing is apart of the game. If you don't want someone to heal off a incantation don't give them the time to do it or punish with a big hit.
Reminds me of the time I was in a fight club on DS 3. I was with a friend on chat and told to wait my turn as it was winner stays. This guy comes in fights 2 people then chugs on the third. Whole club ganked him while I stood there wondering what was going on. After some amazing spells and foot work they were all dead. I just stood there and the guy looked at me as the screen went black (host had died) and I was left wondering what had happened.
Also the fact it costs so much FP means they are using their ability to dish out other spells n incants and its only matter of time before they're dry
I think healing spells are fair. They have long cast times, are super easy to read, and have a long time after the cast to punish. Maybe that's just me though. I usually carry around ranged options that do lots of damage.
I love healing with spells, but I love using inescapable frenzy on another person healing more
If someone manages to pull off a heal (miracle), I’ll give it to them. Well played.
so many comments show that even pvpers need to "git gud"
If i fight against someone who uses Poison/Rot and starts playing way to passive i use Healing Spells without being ashamed. Same goes for Fast-Rolling Mages. I cant feel bad for them lol
they can heal in arena and i can point down, take off all my equipment, and spam the crouch button as a reward for depleting their heathbar 2-3 times 🙂
In my opinion healing spells aren't unfair but it's still a little bitch move if you heal while you and your opponent are at about the same level of health.
The problem is that running away and not engaging is extremely easy and has little to no punishment. In a fighting game, running away gives up screen space and eventually takes you to the corner AND there’s a timer, both of which heavily incentivise engaging. Running away to full heal is difficult to punish and almost always the correct option when you have access to it in a duel. So tbh, I’m with most people; Erdtree Heal sucks ass.
elden ring isn't a fighting game, quit comparing it to any other game where it usually has perfect 1v1 situations
@cceibon Most 1v1 duelers have a timer and make it easier to approach than to run away for this exact reason. Fighting games are not the only games like this. Another example are the medieval war sims like Mordhau or Chivalry 2.
Using a timer and making running away slower than approaching is a convention because otherwise running away is the lowest risk option.