I grew up premillennial dispensational... the past two months Christ has absolutely opened my eyes to the truth of the Word. He has led me to postmillennialism and I cannot unsee the hope I now see in Scripture. Jesus is truly the new and better Adam!
Now u have a glorious hope and a optimistic view of our future, Christ prevails and redeems the earth and many who are redeemed. What a marvelous truth to embrace or I should say that embraces us.
Before reading Revelation I sought a history or background of this book because today all is gloom and doom. I am grateful I found your series. I too am an optimist, my cry to the gloom and doomers is "remember Nineveh'. May God always bless your work.
Good job 'framing' the book of Revelation before reading it. I'm sure it dispelled a lot of misnomers and misconceptions about such an optimistic and glorious book. #theGospelWins
The Bible is best read through the Postmillenial lens, the Bible teaches victory for Christ through His Church! Its a shame the doom and gloom view of Dispensationalism as infected the Church for the past 200 years. I pray that this ends very soon.
Not so simple The most effective missionaries have been the doom and gloomers (Dispensationalists, SDA, JW's--and of course Mormons, although I do not know whether they should be considered doom and gloomers like the others, since they are quite fuzzy on eschatology) while the optimistic postmils have mostly degenerated into generic humanitarians. By far the fastest growing strain during the 20th century (and 21st) has been various versions of dispensational pentecostalism (once denounced by RA Torrey as the "last vomit of Satan"). Of course, the recent rapid spread of Christianity outside the Western world also evokes such questions as "does doctrine matter?" and "which groups exactly are and are not part of the Church?" The trend in Western Christendom has been increasingly toward embracing a "least common denominator" conception of Christianity, and the extent to which one accepts this LCD Christianity as legitimate affects whether one regards the recent "evangelization" of the non-Western world as "progress" or not. Prior to the industrial revolution and "Enlightenment," the consensus Christian view would best be described as amillennial, except for a few premillennialists (chiliasts) before that view was anathematized by an Ecumenical council.
@@michaels4255the JWs are not successful missionaries. People absolutely loathe when they come knocking. Its actually the least effective way to reach people that I can personally imagine.
According to what Bruce is saying that the end of the video optimism versus pessimism I see has dispensationalism or pessimism contrasted Presbyterianism/Puritanism as optimism as for me and my household my eyes have seen the coming of the Glory of the Lord... Our God is marching on!
Hey, thanks Bruce Gore. I never heard of you before, but boy, did I enjoy this lecture. Absolutely brilliant. Displaying such profound insight into the Puritans and Edwards. I am encouraged. May our Lord raise up a whole tribe of preachers and teachers with the depth and vision of Jonathan Edwards. And God bless you, brother.
Such a blessing to listen over and over to this lesson of optimistic eschatology, especially at this time of Thanksgiving! Giving thanks for you and Candy and your beautiful family and ministry!
@GoreBruce, just found your channel. Listening to this series. Long time post-millennial/preterist, your history lesson about Scofield was of particular interest to me (because I think Dispensationalism has done great damage to the Church in America), and I’ll certainly be listening to your lecture on Darby. Thanks for your work and you even-handed, clear, sincere and thorough presentations. God bless you!
Hello brother Bruce. As a German I wonder and ask you why this doctrine is pretty much forgotten in the USA. I offen hear from US Christians that Jonathan Edwards is one of the greatest theologians of America. But why do they not carry on what he has taught about end times?
Yes, unfortunately American Christianity was profoundly, and negatively, influenced by dispensational 'end of the world' eschatology early the the 20th century. Only in recent years has the fog begun to lift.
@GoreBruce Dear beloved brother in Christ Bruce: You are so close, but for some reason you do not want to be where history is made and not only looked at. Did not Jonathan Edwards say that after 6000 years the anti-Christian system would fall, which was about the year 2000. Did not the World Trade Center come down before the eyes of the world. Is not Tyre the world trade center of the Old Testament and does not the prophecy about Tyre contain images of the fall of Babylon in Revelation 18? World Trade is not the only aspect of Babylon but one major part of it. So in 2001 the fall started symbolically. And now you as a historian know very well that after the fall of the last world empire Rome there has not been any other world empire but something other unique was formed. A gathering of all nations under the umbrella of the United Nations. Does the United Nation not resemble a crowd rather than a well-organized and functioning political system? Does not Armageddon mean “the city of the place of the crowds”. Has there ever been an assembly of all nations in history before? Does not God say he does nothing without telling his prophets first? Is not Revelation 16 and Zephaniah 3 the mentioning of a gathering of all nations? Is not the 5th bowl the last event in Revelation that Jonathan Edwards relates to historic events. Does this not leave the 6th bowl as the event that must have taken place in between Jonathan Edwards and our time? Have there been 3 powerful spirits or houses of thoughts that changed the political landscape all over the world after Jonathan Edwards death? Have not the ideas of a constitutional democracy, Communism and Darwinism gathered the once Christians nations in the camp of those governments who do not submit to Jesus Christ and his law? My last question to you about the current situation is this: Are not the major nations standing before the abyss because they have ruined themselves morally and financially with the USA for instance amassing $32,000,000,000,000 national debt. Has not the notion of human rights and the rule of human law led to lawlessness in all areas in the USA because an unsanctified heart was given the freedom to pursue its folly and lust? You said about Jonathan Edward’s prediction about African divines: “Jonathan Edwards amazing prophecy is even now being fulfilled before our eyes”. Do you not see that all of Jonathan Edwards prophecy is being fulfilled before our eyes. The Harlot Babylon is coming down before our eyes and soon this message will be preached all over the world. I wonder what hinders you to see the vision of Jonathan Edwards including his timeline. Is it foolish prideful patriotism that keeps you from accepting that the founding of the USA was driven by the evil spirits of the 6th bowl? John Winthrop has never related the shining city to the Union of believers and unbelievers as Ronald Reagan did. You did well in my eyes when you pointed out that the positive outlook of Johnathan Edwards and William Carey was taken over by godless people. Do you not see that the founding of the USA was also a cheap imitation of the promises of the Gospel: Freedom, life and happiness. The difference is that Jesus Christ provided for a sacrifice for sin and the sinner must repent and be sanctified, and true happiness will be given in paradise because on earth we have to go through many tribulations. The Declaration of Independence is given the people a cheap version of these promises. They promise freedom, life, and happiness, but as history has proven, they have progressed in being slaves to sin and debt. You are so close, but for some reason you do not want to enter the fulfillment of all of the prophecy of Jonathan Edwards. You have studied history so hard but after the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ you do not see the second biggest event in human history being fulfilled before your eyes.
Thanks for another great lecture, Professor. I, too, was brought up in an era when neighborhoods were safe -- so safe we could go on vacation without locking our home. But I, like Edwards, never considered the havoc Satan could cause in such a short time, once released. This is an entirely different world from the one of 40 years ago. Dan
Great study on my Cousin Jonathan, whose Grandfather and profound influence was Solomon Stoddard. These discoveries never cease to humble me. Thank you.
I never ask people to be inconsistent in their theology, but for the love of God, to all Dispensationalists, be inconsistent in this one area and find an optimistic outlook for the sake of spreading the Gospel of the kingdom and Christ. The pessimism has done great damage to the church.
Excellent! I would like to watch the follow up video regarding how the secular world embraced the optimism of the Puritans and produced something quite different and displeasing to God. What is the title of that video? Thank you.
Mr Gore - You present a nice comprehensive survey of Edwards' impact and the anthropology of his teaching. To coin the term, Puritan Effect as optimism, means, and satisfaction really defines a base layer of American history. Nice insight. I had to listen twice to catch Edwards' full post mil view and appreciate the history: Gospel prevails thru missions, diversity expected, nations will be tamed by the gospel, era of peace (1000 years) final rebellion and return of Christ. While you state WW1 and 2 have drive evangelical futurism, what happened to the reformed arm of the church and eschatology? It is my understanding, since they left historicism and a postmil frame, they embraced the Idealism frame in the seminaries, allowing relevance thru application of metaphor and abandoning historic fulfillment? Q] Are there any modern day grandchildren of Edwards? I only see some in the non-orthodox space. Full Preterists, like Don Preston, takes the utopian view of Postmillenialism to its fullest extent. Full preterism matches well with the Postmill progression of society. It only takes a little pride to dismiss a physical return of Christ as a fulfilled reality. Why is it (the Parousia) needed if the post-mil benefits of satisfied, self serving material and emotional blessings are attained by human effort? Second is the secular Post-Modernism effect on the reformed post-millennial frame. In today's post modern church, Not only does the church flourish (without anymore sacrifice of self and real malevolence) but the church helps the world flourish and stay un-regenerated. I think the PM fruits we see today in academia, filtering into the church, is the evolution of that Puritan Effect thru secular campuses, with an amorally ethic. Today's church is embracing PM in order to seek relevance within the culture as social justice. Postmillenialism, Full Preterism and now Post Modern /Social justice is based upon utopianism. The reformed branch in particular is being swept in because of the excessive, extreme, appalling modals of the Futurist frame, and the Amil/Postmil substrate that is too in common with the PM ethic.
Dr. Gore, May I ask your thoughts on Matthew Henry and his commentary on the Bible? I've had it for years and I'm going to start digging into it. I've also started reading Calvin's Institues. Heavy reading indeed! My thanks...
Matthew Henry's Commentary is excellent. I refer to it frequently. The best way to read Calvin is slowly! I read a little of Calvin's Institutes every day, and when I finish, I go back and start over. Thanks for your interest!
It is now nearly Easter of 2022 I hope to view your perspective on the "End Times". Your delievery and resources appear well prepared. Hope your opinions will give insight.
The term 'postmillennialism' was not really current at the time of the Westminster, as it came to be used to distinguish from rising premillennialism of a later era. The Westminster scholars, however, were quite clear in their affirmations that the work of Christ would continue and expand in history. You can see this, for example, in the Larger Catechism and its treatment of the second petition of the Lord's Prayer.
@@GoreBruce Old post now. I like the WCF. I’m probably amil though not really concerned about much more than that preaching the gospel should never stop and that Christ will come again. Having said that, what you mentioned about the LC, I don’t think that any view, even premil could disagree. Christ’s work will always continue as history goes forward.
Here is the problem with postmillennialism. It renders all the OT prophecies made to Israel meaningless, or worse, makes God into an obfuscator because anyone reading the prophecies of Isaiah at the time they were written, for example, concerning the wolf lying down with the lamb (Isa 11:6; Isa 65:25) would have clearly understood them to be about a redeemed national Israel. The prophecies of Zechariah are rendered the same. No one reading Zechariah's prophecy concerning ten men of the gentiles taking hold of the coat of one who is a Jew and saying let us go up to Jerusalem to celebrate the feast of tabernacles (Zec 8:23) would have understood it any other way than literally. I could go on. There are so many others that would be so rendered. They cannot be spiritualized away. I believe that posties and (amils for that matter) do not have an understanding of the dispensational character of the feasts of Yahweh. They outline Israel's history and are repeated year after year starting with their redemption out of Egypt (Passover) and finishing with the rest of the the millennial kingdom (feast of tabernacles). The feast of tabernacles is very prominent in both the major and minor prophets so we must take note of it. Read the prophecies literally as they did back then. They do not steer you wrong.
Yes, I agree. The heart of the postmillennial view is that the New Testament interprets the Old, and not the other way around (e.g., Acts 15:15-17). Thanks for your thoughts.
So Jesus was a false prophet since he said in Matt:24 that he would return before the generation he was speaking to passed on. The Book of Revelation contradicts itself since it repeatedly says that "these things are soon to take place......the time is at hand," yet we are still waiting for the end of the age and the millennial kingdom to be established. Where are the locust with mens faces and tails like scorpions? Jesus says He's a door, does He have hinges and a nob? The Book of Revelation is addressed to the 7 churches. Where are they. If I want to escape the tribulation all I have to do is fly to Jerusalem and flee to the mountains. Bottom line is the only Biblical Interpretation that makes sense is Postmillenialism, otherwise the promise made to Abraham or the nations coming to God as in Daniel are meaningless.
6 лет назад
1. Seventy people (Jacob and his family) migrated to Egypt. 2. Either 215 years later, or possibly 430 years later, approximately two (2) million people left Egypt. 3. After the forty-year sojourn, how many crossed the Jordan and entered Canaan? 4. Approximately 450 years only 50,000 Israelites can be accounted for. What happened to the other millions?
Great lecture Mr Gore. Please can you help and provide me with the source of Edwards being happy to embrace the WC of Faith and subscribe to Presbyterian church govt which is in your lecture. Many thanks from the UK.
I appreciate your consistent encouragement, my friend. You can find source material on the point you raise at this link, and the sources cited therein. www.alliancenet.org/placefortruth/column/theology-on-the-go/jonathan-edwards-the-westminster-standards-and-presbyterian-
Reformed Baptists generally followed a Calvinistic a-millennial (or post-millennial) perspective prior to the 19th century. William Carey, a Reformed Baptist, adopted a much more robust post-millennial view under the influence of Edwards and the Puritans generally. In the 19th century, Reformed Baptist tended toward a historic premillennial view (e.g., Charles Spurgeon).
The way you describe Edwards, it sounds like he was kind of an optimistic Historicist, rather than a real post-millennial. ALL of the time markers in Revelation are near-term fulfillment -- including the bookend 1:1-3 and 20: 6,10 which repeat the words "shortly" and "near." Matthew 24:21 says the Great Tribulation happened immediately after the Christians fled Jerusalem when the Roman army approached and Jesus said in the same verse it would never be repeated. So there's no basis for extending "the tribulation" over the entire span of church history. In that context, the Harlot riding the Beast in Revelation 17 can only be Ancient Rome in league with apostate Israel to crucify Christ. The garments in which the harlot were clothed (17:4) are those of the Jewish priesthood described in Exodus 39. From 17:18 we know that the harlot is the Great City and from 11:8 we know that the Great City is Jerusalem. That being said, the only way you can equate the harlot with the Roman Catholic church is on the assumption that the Roman Church was a creation of Crypto-Jews, extending the original harlot through history. That's not totally unreasonable: ruclips.net/video/MckOVfIXzho/видео.html
Puritan Post-Millennialism leaves me hanging. When does the 200 Million Man Army of Revelation 9:16 occur, for example? As per Great Nations not turning to Christ in droves before the time of Edwards, I know quite a few Russians, Greeks, and Armenians who would disagree with that. Still, there is no denying the influence of Edwards.
Well, I appreciate that, but I'm just a retired guy who teaches an adult Sunday School class. If you are ever in Spokane Washington, you'd be welcome to drop by!
@@GoreBruce It's awsome that you reply to posts. I am not in Washington. Thanks for what you do. I can't get enough. It is difficult to find souls out there that I can draw edification from. You and a few others do that. Do you have a Presbyterian flock you can point me to near Huntington Beach CA. Or I am retiring near Phoenix in a couple years. God bless you Bruce.
@@christiankraft2447 I don't have firsthand knowledge of this church, but it looks pretty good from its online presentation, so I guess I suggest starting with St. Peter's By the Sea Presbyterian Church. (Link below). Blessings! www.stpetershb.org/
Thanks for your question! I have been PCUSA for 35 years, fellow-shipping in a wonderful church that has faithfully weathered the storms that keep blowing in from the denomination. I also have the deepest appreciation for the PCA and its ministry.
Missionaries in the 19th centurey advanced the Gospel worldwide. It was an era of Christondom's greatest advancement. It was also, however, the same period of some of our worst herecy.
Christianity spread far more during the 20th century than the 19th. It also spread a lot durng the 16th and 17th centuries (if the spread of the RCC counts--Edwards would not have thought so!). Christian numerical growth into new populations appears to have been especially sluggish during the 19th century.
Dr Gore, thank you for this presentation, I've recently discovered the gospel of the Kingdom ( that is greater than the gospel of salvation) and like the parable of the hidden treasure I can't get enough. Can you please share some books and/or references that you derived this great message of Jonathan Edwards post-millennial and optimist view?
Well a good place to start is Edwards himself, and his very readable 'Humble Attempt.' www.amazon.com/Explicit-Agreement-Extraordinary-Religion-Advancement-ebook/dp/B005Z2CN4O/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=jonathan+edwards+an+humble+attempt&qid=1639057520&sr=8-1 Thanks for the feedback!
Thank you for your efforts. Your on a short list of people who edify my need for intellectual exercise. Is there a more user friendly place to hear your lectures?
Very good thank you! Doesn’t mention western freemasonry which was just as much embedded and influential as the the movements you describe. Both together. This should also show us the good of post millennial thinking but the overall fallacy of it. Great series though
Jan Uddin There are no end of utopian mythologies that have done great harm. Puritan postmillennialism stands alone as a force that has done such great good.
Puritan "utopianism" was based firmly on the power of God's Holy Spirit to overcome the depravity of man. Those other mystery religions believed the the power of a few enlightened elites who would impose through the scheming of men. The true hope worships God, the false one worships man.
My theological perspectives are contained in the following document, available at the 'about' page of my website. www.brucegore.com/brucewgore/Text/FaithStatement.pdf Thanks for your interest!
Mr Gore - you contradicted yourself at the end of this presentation on JEdwards and the Puritans. You said WW1 and WW2 killed optimism and the fundamental/evangelical outgrowth became pessimistic in its eschatology, and sprung the SDA, JW, Mormon, Dispy movements...but these were in the mid 1800's when optimism was still alive, before WW1 and WW2 .???
Men's various interpretations of the Book of Revelation which affect interpretation of other books of both the Old and New Testaments are confusing and discourageing. God meant ONE THING in his word; now I sure wonder what that is.
The guy Worku has to be an Ethiopian. Well, surly enough things have changed and many from Africa are thinking an evangelical missionary journey to Europe. Christianity is almost dead in Europe.
RE: Missionaries- this is a Bad 'word' in Jewish circles as I have seen before and particularly in Israel. Having traveled a fare amount globally- Mid East & India, W. Europe and Asia I can tell you all quite simply- although seemingly many-many people have at least heard of Jesus Christ the vast majority of these have little to no idea Why he even came! (Mat.24.13 And the gospel of the Kingdom will be spread around the world...and then the end will come") Yet- (Is.29.24 & Zach 14.16- at The Second Coming- Most there will Not know what and particularly That Christ is Returning!!) Not sorry to say but many of us do know that America needs to be Re- evangelized !
Thanks for the question! Wesley generally shared the historicist views of his day, as would be found in most protestant commentators on the book of Revelation. While I don't specifically mention Wesley in my earlier lecture in this series on the historicist approach, much of what I say would apply to him as well. Each of those in the historicist tradition introduced their own specific opinions on various points, of course, and Wesley was no exception. All of them united, however, in condemning the pope of Rome as the Antichrist. That perspective has become much less visible in more recent years, although you can still find folks who fervently hold to that view.
I see an issue with the modern reformers and their eschatology. They want the hey -days of Edwards and see a post-millennial world to Christ, but instead of preaching the gospel in power, they prefer a Post-modern approach of politics, intersectionality, ect. They are a Laodicea. In the lecture, Mr Gore mentioned the old men who said "God will save the heathen". Well, today we say God Can't save the heathen, because we really don't believe anymore in the supernatural. WE can save them thru our good works and standing up for justice.
i'm with you,i love the reformers,but even chuck missler says they missed and continue to miss the boat on their Eschatology.and denying the supernatural aspects and promises of Revelations.
Excellent information, but no, the Jew's survival is not miraculous. The Roma people (Gypsies) retained their identity for 1000 years now and never had a nation or temple, etc. Never met a Hittite, but I've met Arameans and they are both ancient and scattered around.
You are EXACTLY spot on. This business of "miracle" as per their "survival" is simply a response to a dispensationalist Jew-obsessed fever that has _captured_ the Protestant/Evangelical church. And _he_ should know better, but it is my opinion that this gentleman is easily propagandized himself. And btw, it is _far_ from clear what the "Jews" of today are _racially_ exactly. There is a continuing debate on whether the Ashkenaz (90 % of "Jews") are Turkic (khazarian) or Middle-Eastern. A recent study that accepted a Middle-Eastern derivation concluded they were essentially 40% historically "Jewish." Is this sufficient? It merely points up the absurdity of the RACIAL angle of claims of a necessary "Abrahamic" derivation for some future mass-conversion of "the Jews." Needless to say, this has had a devastatingly corrosive and I believe an essentially ruinous effect on the Church of Jesus Christ. Will this man listen to such critiques? Not if he is mind-controlled by 50-70 years of media-saturation propaganda. It appears to me that that is exactly the case.
I tend to agree despise his largely good treatment of the topics. Israel and the Jews were never a race and could absorb anyone who wanted to follow the God of Jacob. How then can you call them a generic group when so many could easily mingle in. This is why Paul said to dispense with genealogies. Persecution of Jews is just not true - if you never even mention the behaviour of this particular group during such times as they claim.
The Assyrians are still around too (they are Nestorian Christians now), as are the Egyptians and the Abyssinians/Ethiopians and the Persians and some other peoples mentioned in the OT under various archaic names. Even the Samaritans are still around, although I have read they are developing genetic problems from excessive inbreeding.
@@michaels4255 I don't know, most of the arguments I find against "Calvinism" today are against doctrine explicitly denied by the confessions those early Reformers wrote. Then again, most of the arguers I run across are so terrible that they can't actually argue against the system as believed by actual humans and just insist without evidence or logic that you have to believe their strawman version to be consistent because _vague hand waving_ reasons.
How could the post millennial view be correct when there are verses that describe the millennial like Isaiah 65:20 with people living very old? We dont see this now so this has to be a different era after Christ returns. No longer will babies die when only a few days old. No longer will adults die before they have lived a full life. No longer will people be considered old at one hundred! Only the cursed will die that young!
I grew up premillennial dispensational... the past two months Christ has absolutely opened my eyes to the truth of the Word. He has led me to postmillennialism and I cannot unsee the hope I now see in Scripture. Jesus is truly the new and better Adam!
It good to read that someone else realizes that the pre-Rapture doom and gloom eschatology is non-sense and self destructive.
Now u have a glorious hope and a optimistic view of our future, Christ prevails and redeems the earth and many who are redeemed. What a marvelous truth to embrace or I should say that embraces us.
Just today my eyes were open. And I cannot even explain the freedom, not sure why, but I get to be an over comer.
@@freetobememe4358 Praise be to God. It changes how we live!
Praise the Lord, Brother 🤠
I have found the best teacher I ever had under Jesus!!!! I am learning so much and thanking God for all your classes!!!!
@@alisonwesson465 Thank you!
Before reading Revelation I sought a history or background of this book because today all is gloom and doom. I am grateful I found your series. I too am an optimist, my cry to the gloom and doomers is "remember Nineveh'. May God always bless your work.
Thank you very much!
@@GoreBruce May the Lord bless you pastor for your insight and wisdom.
yes, do remember Ninevah- read Nahum!
Good job 'framing' the book of Revelation before reading it. I'm sure it dispelled a lot of misnomers and misconceptions about such an optimistic and glorious book. #theGospelWins
Nineveh's end was merely postponed about 100 years. You do know the end of Assyria? That was prophesied too. 😁
The Bible is best read through the Postmillenial lens, the Bible teaches victory for Christ through His Church! Its a shame the doom and gloom view of Dispensationalism as infected the Church for the past 200 years. I pray that this ends very soon.
Not so simple The most effective missionaries have been the doom and gloomers (Dispensationalists, SDA, JW's--and of course Mormons, although I do not know whether they should be considered doom and gloomers like the others, since they are quite fuzzy on eschatology) while the optimistic postmils have mostly degenerated into generic humanitarians. By far the fastest growing strain during the 20th century (and 21st) has been various versions of dispensational pentecostalism (once denounced by RA Torrey as the "last vomit of Satan"). Of course, the recent rapid spread of Christianity outside the Western world also evokes such questions as "does doctrine matter?" and "which groups exactly are and are not part of the Church?" The trend in Western Christendom has been increasingly toward embracing a "least common denominator" conception of Christianity, and the extent to which one accepts this LCD Christianity as legitimate affects whether one regards the recent "evangelization" of the non-Western world as "progress" or not. Prior to the industrial revolution and "Enlightenment," the consensus Christian view would best be described as amillennial, except for a few premillennialists (chiliasts) before that view was anathematized by an Ecumenical council.
@@michaels4255the JWs are not successful missionaries. People absolutely loathe when they come knocking.
Its actually the least effective way to reach people that I can personally imagine.
After enjoying such a masterpiece of a presentation, who else can't help but rock out on the air lute.....just me?
According to what Bruce is saying that the end of the video optimism versus pessimism I see has dispensationalism or pessimism contrasted Presbyterianism/Puritanism as optimism as for me and my household my eyes have seen the coming of the Glory of the Lord... Our God is marching on!
Blessings Brother, wonderful work!
Hey, thanks Bruce Gore. I never heard of you before, but boy, did I enjoy this lecture. Absolutely brilliant. Displaying such profound insight into the Puritans and Edwards. I am encouraged. May our Lord raise up a whole tribe of preachers and teachers with the depth and vision of Jonathan Edwards. And God bless you, brother.
Thank you!
Such a blessing to listen over and over to this lesson of optimistic eschatology, especially at this time of Thanksgiving! Giving thanks for you and Candy and your beautiful family and ministry!
...and God's richest blessing to you as well, my dear friends.
Bruce where have you been all my life!?! Great exposition.
Dr. Gore is a wonderful teacher!
Agreed
Amen, I wish so many others would learn church history, & even more so, holy scripture from Mr Gore
@GoreBruce, just found your channel. Listening to this series. Long time post-millennial/preterist, your history lesson about Scofield was of particular interest to me (because I think Dispensationalism has done great damage to the Church in America), and I’ll certainly be listening to your lecture on Darby. Thanks for your work and you even-handed, clear, sincere and thorough presentations. God bless you!
Thank you!
Thanks for passing on your great knowledge of church & world history! Such rare & valuable information in these times… very appreciated!
Thank you!
hey mr Gore thank you so muchfor posting and taking the time to bring to us on youtube though i am a full preterist i greatly appreciate your series
+tonyteb Thanks!
Eschatology has a direct effect on the preaching of the gospel.
Amen to that!
You bet it does! I refuse to listen to certain people that I always Listened to because severe lack of innerstanding this.
Hello brother Bruce. As a German I wonder and ask you why this doctrine is pretty much forgotten in the USA. I offen hear from US Christians that Jonathan Edwards is one of the greatest theologians of America. But why do they not carry on what he has taught about end times?
Yes, unfortunately American Christianity was profoundly, and negatively, influenced by dispensational 'end of the world' eschatology early the the 20th century. Only in recent years has the fog begun to lift.
@GoreBruce Dear beloved brother in Christ Bruce: You are so close, but for some reason you do not want to be where history is made and not only looked at. Did not Jonathan Edwards say that after 6000 years the anti-Christian system would fall, which was about the year 2000. Did not the World Trade Center come down before the eyes of the world. Is not Tyre the world trade center of the Old Testament and does not the prophecy about Tyre contain images of the fall of Babylon in Revelation 18? World Trade is not the only aspect of Babylon but one major part of it. So in 2001 the fall started symbolically.
And now you as a historian know very well that after the fall of the last world empire Rome there has not been any other world empire but something other unique was formed. A gathering of all nations under the umbrella of the United Nations. Does the United Nation not resemble a crowd rather than a well-organized and functioning political system? Does not Armageddon mean “the city of the place of the crowds”. Has there ever been an assembly of all nations in history before? Does not God say he does nothing without telling his prophets first? Is not Revelation 16 and Zephaniah 3 the mentioning of a gathering of all nations?
Is not the 5th bowl the last event in Revelation that Jonathan Edwards relates to historic events. Does this not leave the 6th bowl as the event that must have taken place in between Jonathan Edwards and our time?
Have there been 3 powerful spirits or houses of thoughts that changed the political landscape all over the world after Jonathan Edwards death? Have not the ideas of a constitutional democracy, Communism and Darwinism gathered the once Christians nations in the camp of those governments who do not submit to Jesus Christ and his law?
My last question to you about the current situation is this: Are not the major nations standing before the abyss because they have ruined themselves morally and financially with the USA for instance amassing $32,000,000,000,000 national debt. Has not the notion of human rights and the rule of human law led to lawlessness in all areas in the USA because an unsanctified heart was given the freedom to pursue its folly and lust?
You said about Jonathan Edward’s prediction about African divines: “Jonathan Edwards amazing prophecy is even now being fulfilled before our eyes”.
Do you not see that all of Jonathan Edwards prophecy is being fulfilled before our eyes. The Harlot Babylon is coming down before our eyes and soon this message will be preached all over the world.
I wonder what hinders you to see the vision of Jonathan Edwards including his timeline. Is it foolish prideful patriotism that keeps you from accepting that the founding of the USA was driven by the evil spirits of the 6th bowl? John Winthrop has never related the shining city to the Union of believers and unbelievers as Ronald Reagan did.
You did well in my eyes when you pointed out that the positive outlook of Johnathan Edwards and William Carey was taken over by godless people. Do you not see that the founding of the USA was also a cheap imitation of the promises of the Gospel: Freedom, life and happiness. The difference is that Jesus Christ provided for a sacrifice for sin and the sinner must repent and be sanctified, and true happiness will be given in paradise because on earth we have to go through many tribulations. The Declaration of Independence is given the people a cheap version of these promises. They promise freedom, life, and happiness, but as history has proven, they have progressed in being slaves to sin and debt.
You are so close, but for some reason you do not want to enter the fulfillment of all of the prophecy of Jonathan Edwards. You have studied history so hard but after the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ you do not see the second biggest event in human history being fulfilled before your eyes.
Fantastic!! Sharing now!
Very educational. Thank you.
Thanks for another great lecture, Professor. I, too, was brought up in an era when neighborhoods were safe -- so safe we could go on vacation without locking our home. But I, like Edwards, never considered the havoc Satan could cause in such a short time, once released. This is an entirely different world from the one of 40 years ago.
Dan
Thanks Dan, and blessings in your ministry!
Great study on my Cousin Jonathan, whose Grandfather and profound influence was Solomon Stoddard. These discoveries never cease to humble me. Thank you.
I never ask people to be inconsistent in their theology, but for the love of God, to all Dispensationalists, be inconsistent in this one area and find an optimistic outlook for the sake of spreading the Gospel of the kingdom and Christ. The pessimism has done great damage to the church.
I have found the Calvary Chapel as a rare breed of optimistic Dispensationalists. They are very much involved in "occupying" and impacting culture.
Excellent! I would like to watch the follow up video regarding how the secular world embraced the optimism of the Puritans and produced something quite different and displeasing to God. What is the title of that video? Thank you.
Mr Gore - You present a nice comprehensive survey of Edwards' impact and the anthropology of his teaching. To coin the term, Puritan Effect as optimism, means, and satisfaction really defines a base layer of American history. Nice insight. I had to listen twice to catch Edwards' full post mil view and appreciate the history: Gospel prevails thru missions, diversity expected, nations will be tamed by the gospel, era of peace (1000 years) final rebellion and return of Christ. While you state WW1 and 2 have drive evangelical futurism, what happened to the reformed arm of the church and eschatology? It is my understanding, since they left historicism and a postmil frame, they embraced the Idealism frame in the seminaries, allowing relevance thru application of metaphor and abandoning historic fulfillment? Q] Are there any modern day grandchildren of Edwards? I only see some in the non-orthodox space. Full Preterists, like Don Preston, takes the utopian view of Postmillenialism to its fullest extent. Full preterism matches well with the Postmill progression of society. It only takes a little pride to dismiss a physical return of Christ as a fulfilled reality. Why is it (the Parousia) needed if the post-mil benefits of satisfied, self serving material and emotional blessings are attained by human effort? Second is the secular Post-Modernism effect on the reformed post-millennial frame. In today's post modern church, Not only does the church flourish (without anymore sacrifice of self and real malevolence) but the church helps the world flourish and stay un-regenerated. I think the PM fruits we see today in academia, filtering into the church, is the evolution of that Puritan Effect thru secular campuses, with an amorally ethic. Today's church is embracing PM in order to seek relevance within the culture as social justice. Postmillenialism, Full Preterism and now Post Modern /Social justice is based upon utopianism. The reformed branch in particular is being swept in because of the excessive, extreme, appalling modals of the Futurist frame, and the Amil/Postmil substrate that is too in common with the PM ethic.
Dr. Gore, May I ask your thoughts on Matthew Henry and his commentary on the Bible? I've had it for years and I'm going to start digging into it. I've also started reading Calvin's Institues. Heavy reading indeed! My thanks...
Matthew Henry's Commentary is excellent. I refer to it frequently. The best way to read Calvin is slowly! I read a little of Calvin's Institutes every day, and when I finish, I go back and start over. Thanks for your interest!
@@GoreBruce I've added a half chapter to a full chapter of Calvin a day depending on the length of it. Yes, SLOWLY! My thanks sir, and God Bless!
It is now nearly Easter of 2022 I hope to view your perspective on the "End Times". Your delievery and resources appear well prepared. Hope your opinions will give insight.
Great teaching!!
Thank you much!!
+John O'Donnell Thank you!
Dr Gore , what was the millennial views of the Westminster divines? Especially, among the Presbyterians vs independents and let’s include Erastians
The term 'postmillennialism' was not really current at the time of the Westminster, as it came to be used to distinguish from rising premillennialism of a later era. The Westminster scholars, however, were quite clear in their affirmations that the work of Christ would continue and expand in history. You can see this, for example, in the Larger Catechism and its treatment of the second petition of the Lord's Prayer.
@@GoreBruce thank You Dr Gore I do see that in the WLC .
@@GoreBruce Old post now. I like the WCF. I’m probably amil though not really concerned about much more than that preaching the gospel should never stop and that Christ will come again. Having said that, what you mentioned about the LC, I don’t think that any view, even premil could disagree. Christ’s work will always continue as history goes forward.
Thanks🙏
Here is the problem with postmillennialism. It renders all the OT prophecies made to Israel meaningless, or worse, makes God into an obfuscator because anyone reading the prophecies of Isaiah at the time they were written, for example, concerning the wolf lying down with the lamb (Isa 11:6; Isa 65:25) would have clearly understood them to be about a redeemed national Israel. The prophecies of Zechariah are rendered the same. No one reading Zechariah's prophecy concerning ten men of the gentiles taking hold of the coat of one who is a Jew and saying let us go up to Jerusalem to celebrate the feast of tabernacles (Zec 8:23) would have understood it any other way than literally. I could go on. There are so many others that would be so rendered. They cannot be spiritualized away. I believe that posties and (amils for that matter) do not have an understanding of the dispensational character of the feasts of Yahweh. They outline Israel's history and are repeated year after year starting with their redemption out of Egypt (Passover) and finishing with the rest of the the millennial kingdom (feast of tabernacles). The feast of tabernacles is very prominent in both the major and minor prophets so we must take note of it. Read the prophecies literally as they did back then. They do not steer you wrong.
Yes, I agree. The heart of the postmillennial view is that the New Testament interprets the Old, and not the other way around (e.g., Acts 15:15-17). Thanks for your thoughts.
@@GoreBruce, the heart of the premil view is that the promises are mutually exclusive. 😁
So Jesus was a false prophet since he said in Matt:24 that he would return before the generation he was speaking to passed on. The Book of Revelation contradicts itself since it repeatedly says that "these things are soon to take place......the time is at hand," yet we are still waiting for the end of the age and the millennial kingdom to be established. Where are the locust with mens faces and tails like scorpions? Jesus says He's a door, does He have hinges and a nob? The Book of Revelation is addressed to the 7 churches. Where are they. If I want to escape the tribulation all I have to do is fly to Jerusalem and flee to the mountains. Bottom line is the only Biblical Interpretation that makes sense is Postmillenialism, otherwise the promise made to Abraham or the nations coming to God as in Daniel are meaningless.
1. Seventy people (Jacob and his family) migrated to Egypt.
2. Either 215 years later, or possibly 430 years later, approximately two (2) million people left Egypt.
3. After the forty-year sojourn, how many crossed the Jordan and entered Canaan?
4. Approximately 450 years only 50,000 Israelites can be accounted for. What happened to the other millions?
Great lecture Mr Gore.
Please can you help and provide me with the source of Edwards being happy to embrace the WC of Faith and subscribe to Presbyterian church govt which is in your lecture.
Many thanks from the UK.
I appreciate your consistent encouragement, my friend. You can find source material on the point you raise at this link, and the sources cited therein. www.alliancenet.org/placefortruth/column/theology-on-the-go/jonathan-edwards-the-westminster-standards-and-presbyterian-
What was the normal Reformed Baptist perspective of eschatology prior to the rise of dispensationalism?
Reformed Baptists generally followed a Calvinistic a-millennial (or post-millennial) perspective prior to the 19th century. William Carey, a Reformed Baptist, adopted a much more robust post-millennial view under the influence of Edwards and the Puritans generally. In the 19th century, Reformed Baptist tended toward a historic premillennial view (e.g., Charles Spurgeon).
Chiliaism
The way you describe Edwards, it sounds like he was kind of an optimistic Historicist, rather than a real post-millennial. ALL of the time markers in Revelation are near-term fulfillment -- including the bookend 1:1-3 and 20: 6,10 which repeat the words "shortly" and "near." Matthew 24:21 says the Great Tribulation happened immediately after the Christians fled Jerusalem when the Roman army approached and Jesus said in the same verse it would never be repeated. So there's no basis for extending "the tribulation" over the entire span of church history.
In that context, the Harlot riding the Beast in Revelation 17 can only be Ancient Rome in league with apostate Israel to crucify Christ. The garments in which the harlot were clothed (17:4) are those of the Jewish priesthood described in Exodus 39. From 17:18 we know that the harlot is the Great City and from 11:8 we know that the Great City is Jerusalem.
That being said, the only way you can equate the harlot with the Roman Catholic church is on the assumption that the Roman Church was a creation of Crypto-Jews, extending the original harlot through history. That's not totally unreasonable: ruclips.net/video/MckOVfIXzho/видео.html
Edwards is almost universally regarded as post-millennial, but he did take a historicist view of the book of Revelation.
"where also our Lord was crucified" might be a metaphorical "where," so not necessarily Jerusalem. Also, Jerusalem was never a "great city."
Puritan Post-Millennialism leaves me hanging. When does the 200 Million Man Army of Revelation 9:16 occur, for example?
As per Great Nations not turning to Christ in droves before the time of Edwards, I know quite a few Russians, Greeks, and Armenians who would disagree with that. Still, there is no denying the influence of Edwards.
Fair enough. Thanks!
That is not necessarily an army of "men."
Hello Bruce. Where do you teach? It would mean a lot if I could attend.
Well, I appreciate that, but I'm just a retired guy who teaches an adult Sunday School class. If you are ever in Spokane Washington, you'd be welcome to drop by!
@@GoreBruce It's awsome that you reply to posts. I am not in Washington. Thanks for what you do. I can't get enough. It is difficult to find souls out there that I can draw edification from. You and a few others do that. Do you have a Presbyterian flock you can point me to near Huntington Beach CA. Or I am retiring near Phoenix in a couple years. God bless you Bruce.
@@christiankraft2447 I don't have firsthand knowledge of this church, but it looks pretty good from its online presentation, so I guess I suggest starting with St. Peter's By the Sea Presbyterian Church. (Link below). Blessings!
www.stpetershb.org/
I have met an Assyrian. He was Christian, Iranian, and disliked the discrimination by Persians.
Hello Mr. Gore I was wondering if you could tell me what Presbyterian denomination you are in? I'm in the PCA, are you in my denomination?
Thanks for your question! I have been PCUSA for 35 years, fellow-shipping in a wonderful church that has faithfully weathered the storms that keep blowing in from the denomination. I also have the deepest appreciation for the PCA and its ministry.
+Bruce Gore Okay thanks for the quick response, and thank you for your work. It has been very helpful so far.
The Puritan Effect seems awesome
Missionaries in the 19th centurey advanced the Gospel worldwide. It was an era of Christondom's greatest advancement.
It was also, however, the same period of some of our worst herecy.
Ah, and what shall Our Great GOD Do in this to come?) Solí DÉÕ Gloría
Christianity spread far more during the 20th century than the 19th. It also spread a lot durng the 16th and 17th centuries (if the spread of the RCC counts--Edwards would not have thought so!). Christian numerical growth into new populations appears to have been especially sluggish during the 19th century.
Dr Gore, thank you for this presentation, I've recently discovered the gospel of the Kingdom ( that is greater than the gospel of salvation) and like the parable of the hidden treasure I can't get enough. Can you please share some books and/or references that you derived this great message of Jonathan Edwards post-millennial and optimist view?
Well a good place to start is Edwards himself, and his very readable 'Humble Attempt.'
www.amazon.com/Explicit-Agreement-Extraordinary-Religion-Advancement-ebook/dp/B005Z2CN4O/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=jonathan+edwards+an+humble+attempt&qid=1639057520&sr=8-1
Thanks for the feedback!
@@GoreBruce thankyou sir, I can't wait to dig in and the ebook is only 99 cents. Wow!
Thank you for your efforts. Your on a short list of people who edify my need for intellectual exercise. Is there a more user friendly place to hear your lectures?
More friendly than a RUclips Playlist?
Very good thank you! Doesn’t mention western freemasonry which was just as much embedded and influential as the the movements you describe. Both together. This should also show us the good of post millennial thinking but the overall fallacy of it. Great series though
Jan Uddin There are no end of utopian mythologies that have done great harm. Puritan postmillennialism stands alone as a force that has done such great good.
I am open and praying into this as it certainly does tint one's world view. Thanks for that great series and for your teaching
Puritan "utopianism" was based firmly on the power of God's Holy Spirit to overcome the depravity of man.
Those other mystery religions believed the the power of a few enlightened elites who would impose through the scheming of men.
The true hope worships God, the false one worships man.
Brother Bruce are you Postmillennial?
My theological perspectives are contained in the following document, available at the 'about' page of my website. www.brucegore.com/brucewgore/Text/FaithStatement.pdf
Thanks for your interest!
Bruce Gore thank you for teaching series, I’ve been listening to your series on the book of revelation today at work. I really enjoy it.
Thank you that answered my question.
I am a white US born citizen, and I was saved by Christ through an African man from Ghana, two years ago. We were both 26 years old.
Amen to that. I wish Africa would send us a bunch of missionaries! Heaven knows we need them!
Oh wowww Amen
Mr Gore - you contradicted yourself at the end of this presentation on JEdwards and the Puritans. You said WW1 and WW2 killed optimism and the fundamental/evangelical outgrowth became pessimistic in its eschatology, and sprung the SDA, JW, Mormon, Dispy movements...but these were in the mid 1800's when optimism was still alive, before WW1 and WW2 .???
Men's various interpretations of the Book of Revelation which affect interpretation of other books of both the Old and New Testaments are confusing and discourageing. God meant ONE THING in his word; now I sure wonder what that is.
I hope you'll stay with this series. It may help!
@@GoreBruce Thank you for your reply, I will watch the series.
The guy Worku has to be an Ethiopian. Well, surly enough things have changed and many from Africa are thinking an evangelical missionary journey to Europe. Christianity is almost dead in Europe.
RE: Missionaries- this is a Bad 'word' in Jewish circles as I have seen before and particularly in Israel. Having traveled a fare amount globally- Mid East & India, W. Europe and Asia I can tell you all quite simply- although seemingly many-many people have at least heard of Jesus Christ the vast majority of these have little to no idea Why he even came! (Mat.24.13 And the gospel of the Kingdom will be spread around the world...and then the end will come") Yet- (Is.29.24 & Zach 14.16- at The Second Coming- Most there will Not know what and particularly That Christ is Returning!!)
Not sorry to say but many of us do know that America needs to be Re- evangelized !
Being raised Nazarene I have never got a clear idea what John Wesley believed about the book of Revelations. Can you clarify?
Thanks for the question! Wesley generally shared the historicist views of his day, as would be found in most protestant commentators on the book of Revelation. While I don't specifically mention Wesley in my earlier lecture in this series on the historicist approach, much of what I say would apply to him as well. Each of those in the historicist tradition introduced their own specific opinions on various points, of course, and Wesley was no exception. All of them united, however, in condemning the pope of Rome as the Antichrist. That perspective has become much less visible in more recent years, although you can still find folks who fervently hold to that view.
Bruce Gore Seventh Day Adventists still seem convinced that the pope is the anti Christ
Yes! ...it is foundational to their eschatology.
Bruce Gore it all sounds like it fits really well prior to any sort of examination. Thanks again for the lessons, they are great!
The pope of Rome as antichrist was the prevailing view among Protestants of all sorts from Luther until some time during the 20th century.
I see an issue with the modern reformers and their eschatology. They want the hey -days of Edwards and see a post-millennial world to Christ, but instead of preaching the gospel in power, they prefer a Post-modern approach of politics, intersectionality, ect. They are a Laodicea. In the lecture, Mr Gore mentioned the old men who said "God will save the heathen". Well, today we say God Can't save the heathen, because we really don't believe anymore in the supernatural. WE can save them thru our good works and standing up for justice.
i'm with you,i love the reformers,but even chuck missler says they missed and continue to miss the boat on their Eschatology.and denying the supernatural aspects and promises of Revelations.
Excellent information, but no, the Jew's survival is not miraculous. The Roma people (Gypsies) retained their identity for 1000 years now and never had a nation or temple, etc. Never met a Hittite, but I've met Arameans and they are both ancient and scattered around.
You are EXACTLY spot on. This business of "miracle" as per their "survival" is simply a response to a dispensationalist Jew-obsessed fever that has _captured_ the Protestant/Evangelical church. And _he_ should know better, but it is my opinion that this gentleman is easily propagandized himself. And btw, it is _far_ from clear what the "Jews" of today are _racially_ exactly. There is a continuing debate on whether the Ashkenaz (90 % of "Jews") are Turkic (khazarian) or Middle-Eastern. A recent study that accepted a Middle-Eastern derivation concluded they were essentially 40% historically "Jewish." Is this sufficient? It merely points up the absurdity of the RACIAL angle of claims of a necessary "Abrahamic" derivation for some future mass-conversion of "the Jews." Needless to say, this has had a devastatingly corrosive and I believe an essentially ruinous effect on the Church of Jesus Christ. Will this man listen to such critiques? Not if he is mind-controlled by 50-70 years of media-saturation propaganda. It appears to me that that is exactly the case.
I tend to agree despise his largely good treatment of the topics. Israel and the Jews were never a race and could absorb anyone who wanted to follow the God of Jacob. How then can you call them a generic group when so many could easily mingle in. This is why Paul said to dispense with genealogies. Persecution of Jews is just not true - if you never even mention the behaviour of this particular group during such times as they claim.
another example does not contradict the claim to rarity
The Assyrians are still around too (they are Nestorian Christians now), as are the Egyptians and the Abyssinians/Ethiopians and the Persians and some other peoples mentioned in the OT under various archaic names. Even the Samaritans are still around, although I have read they are developing genetic problems from excessive inbreeding.
He was not a Black African man Bruce. He was a man from the continent of Africa.
Brother Edward's Elders were Hyper-calvinists, hmmm!(
By today's standards, all the early Calvinists would be regarded as "hyper."
@@michaels4255 I don't know, most of the arguments I find against "Calvinism" today are against doctrine explicitly denied by the confessions those early Reformers wrote. Then again, most of the arguers I run across are so terrible that they can't actually argue against the system as believed by actual humans and just insist without evidence or logic that you have to believe their strawman version to be consistent because _vague hand waving_ reasons.
So euro centric
Not today, we can see the advance of the good news in Africa or Asia.
How could the post millennial view be correct when there are verses that describe the millennial like Isaiah 65:20 with people living very old? We dont see this now so this has to be a different era after Christ returns.
No longer will babies die when only a few days old. No longer will adults die before they have lived a full life. No longer will people be considered old at one hundred! Only the cursed will die that young!
It's a progression. It doesn't happen instantly.
Great teaching!!
Thank you much!!