It’s almost like Genesis is, and hear me out…. mythical. You can be a Christian and concede that. Just say it’s allegory, it’s fine. Thanks for clearing things up again, Dan.
there's no reason to think the original writers thought it was allegory. And if it is allegory, the meaning is just subjective opinion, as is identifying the parts that are allegory. Allegory = fiction.
@@scambammer6102He wasn't actually saying that. --- the original bible author's viewpoint was what the Sumero Babylonian cosmology was. Had the bible authors been supernaturally inspired by an all powerful and all knowing deity, they would have been able to describe the universe truthfully. Evangelicals can't handle Genesis 1, which claims that plants, that require the Sun's warmth, were somehow created on day 3, before the Sun itself was created on day 4. It was mythical.
I think the bible is total bunk from beginning to end. I am just disagreeing with his point about allegory. Allegory is an intentional literary device. That isn't what the bible writers were doing. They thought they were conveying god's word.
Then everything in the bible can be mythical. From Adam to Jesus. If Jesus is the "second Adam" and Adam was just mythical, this has serious consequences for the gospels and Christianity. Its just picking and choosing what u like and what not.
This is a very good explanation. It is such an odd thing that fundamentalists do when they read Genesis. They believe they are reading it respectfully by using the standards of post-enlightenment history, but this is actually imposing anachronistic standards on the text.
Fascinating! I went through my angry atheist phase from my twenties to my thirties. Now I'm a 40 year old atheist that studies the Bible with more vigor, and more joy than I ever did as a believer. Though I don't believe it to be true, the Bible k's more. Important in my life than it has ever been before.
Who knows, maybe the multiverse is true and the Bible events are true but in a different universe and some how a portal opened up and the scripture ended up in our universe
It does seem that Tolkien was tapping into that same line of mythological thought, that the righteous are long lived. Even if some fall out of righteousness, like Sauron and Saruman, they still retain their longevity because of their lineage.
In deed, @@autonomouscollective2599! In the case of the Númenóreans, there's an explicit link between their rampaging wickedness and their decreasing lifespan.
@@autonomouscollective2599 I remember in Catholic school being taught the decreasing lifespans of the Pentateuch patriarchs was an illustration of how original sin was steadily corrupting the world--Adam lived longer than Methuselah, who lived longer than Noah, who lived longer than Moses, etc. I haven't looked at it closely enough to see if that actually tracks, but it's possible Tolkien, a devout Catholic, was taught something similar.
I recently bought the NRSV on your suggestion and it’s great! I have a question though, what does it mean when it talks about the “priestly” and “non-priestly” versions of the Genesis stories?
It's cool to see you here! There's an idea called the 'documentary hypothesis' that multiple sources composed different parts pf the five Books of Moses. The Priestly Source is one of those, seemingly a later editor that combined multiple stories and sometimes multiple versions of the same story into one document.
@@JJMcCulloughThe concerns of Jewish priests: ritual, number, calendars, purity taboos. So the Genesis 1 story is considered "priestly" because of the emphasis on a divinely instituted week (six work days plus a sabbath). When in Genesis 7 God says to take 7 pairs of clean animals and 1 pair of unclean animals (when the prior chapter said just *two* of each kind), it's probably priestly. When you're reading Numbers and in the middle of an exciting story you get instructions for how to sacrifice a red heifer to purify after contact with the dead...priestly. Essentially this class within the Jewish people were trying to root their ritual traditions within the stories of the Torah. They also probably played a large role in editing the books (Ezra - to whom the canon is traditionally attributed - is both a priest and a scribe, though he may be a legendary representative figure of the people who copied and taught the biblical books.) Hope that helps!
Without permanent monuments to record the passing years, a nomadic tribe could remember only as far back as its oldest member. As the sole surviver of one's generation, that person might just as well have been 90 as 900.
How wrong you are. It is well known that some tribes in the world would remember their ancestors for hundreds of years. Sometimes centuries later reburying many generations of ancestors in one tomb. For that to happen the dead must have been highly valued and regarded and remembered from generation to generation
The ancestors of snakes DID have legs, as they evolved from lizards during three different events. In the DreamTime animals can always speak to humans (“DreamTime” here referring to any mythic age, not just Australian Aboriginal’s period).
@@xplicitgoofy1015back when? During the time of creation story? Then I have a problem for you. We've found snake fossils with legs. So if snakes had legs before the fall the only fossils would be with legless snakes. But we have snake fossils with legs. So the literal take on that part of the Bible can't be true
I think Robert M. Best's theory in his book, "Noah's Ark and the Ziusudra Epic", makes a lot of sense, that the numbers were mistranslated from Sumerian because the Sumerians reused the symbols for numbers in three different ways depending on what they were counting, making such a mistake easy to make. Once he reverse translated them and re-translated them correctly, the ages seem to make sense. He also applied this to the Sumerian King's List and again they make sense.
The accounts of lifespans were of people that existed BEFORE the Sumerians, but was written down when God told Moses what happened in the beginning. The Sumerians had earlier writings than Moses who wrote the first five books, but Moses had divine information that they never had. That's why their account of the Ark was that it was like a square seven storey office building instead of the dimensions Moses recorded...and those dimensions help prove the Divine inspiration of the account of the flood because the proportions that God told Noah to make the ark, are the same proportions used in ship building today. The Sumerian proportions ? Not so much.
@@markanthony3275 Moses didn't write all of Genesis and perhaps none of it. The early parts were added later during the Babylonian exile. There are half a dozen flood stories found written in cuneiform with God telling someone to build a boat and to take animals on it by twos and sevens and released birds after the rain stopped. These are all related and the version in the Bible is one of the last versions. The size and shape of the ark varied in each version and isn't important to the story anyway. God didn't relate the flood story to Moses. The Bible doesn't say He did either.
I am not a Christian. I follow Jainism (ancient religion of India). Most eastern religions also claim ancient humans had a longer lifespan than we do today. The claim is valid as our lifespan is allotted in the # of breaths; not years, days, or seconds. Despite humans having access to modern-day healthcare, turtles / tortoise have a longer lifespan (200 years) than humans as their breathing rate = 5 BPM average. There are many underwater species (e.g. whales) that also live longer than humans. If anything human lifespan has decreased and is still decreasing because of the medical industry (profit making). As we consume more breaths, the Oxygen reacts with Hydrogen to form Free Radicals, which reduces our lifespan. So now the question is what contributes to increased breathing rate and therby increased Oxygen inhalation? The factors include increased population, competition, greed, sexual activities, capitalism / slavery, obesity, smoking, fear, anxiety, depression, etc. These factors were not prevalent in the ancient times, so human beings were able to cultivate their breaths and they also had more # of breaths allowed to them.
@@mshah1193 Nice try, but no cigar. First of all, scientists control for environmental factors [like smoking and all the bits you mentioned]. Life span calculations are complex, but species-dependent. True, PART the reason that turtles /tortoises live longer is based on their Basal Metabolic Rate. Therefore they consume less oxygen, but they still have the same problems of free radicals as any other eukaryotic organism. Besides, comparing Anapsid survival rates to mammals like humans is comparing apples to oranges. Anapsids are poikilotherms [no metabolic temp regulation], whereas mammals and birds are homeothermic. The last means that humans etc actively use energy to keep our body temperature within narrow limits. Plus mammals and bird have relatively large brains compared to reptiles and this too takes a lot of energy. [Glucose "burned" by oxygen in the Krebs cycle]. Next fallacy. Whales have the same sort of life spans as us: Orcas and blue whales around 90 years, but other species like the Buluga, only 35-50 years. Humans can live about 130 years, but that is VERY exceptional, 70 to 90 years is more common. In any case, a hundred-odd years is nothing like the claims of the bible [up to 900 years] No, the medical industry has increased life spans, not decreased them. The average age of humans in the pre-medical science era was about 45-60 years at best. You would occasionally get a lucky 80 year old. That is why the ancients had child marriages, because chances are you might die before you children became adults, hence 12 to 14 yo was usual for those days. Lastly a claim of increased life span has nothing to do with it being true. Evidence is necessary. In the bible it was claimed Jesus turned a few rolls and a handful of fish that could feed 5000. Do you think that claim is credible without good evidence? All religions love to tell yarns to impress the locals. Especially miracles and other dramatic, if dubious happenings like resurrection and reincarnation. "Slavery was not prevalent in ancient times? Are you joking? Anyway, that is enough for now. I suggest your hypotheses needs further work.
The Qur'an copies these myths but puts them into the mouth of God: "We certainly sent Noah to his people, and he remained among them a thousand years minus fifty years, and the flood seized them while they were wrongdoers." (29:14)
The idea that ancient man lived longer is a common trope: mythical ancestors, closer to creation and the gods, lived long lives in the image of their creators. But as men gradually distanced themselves from the divine, they degenerated and their lives shortened. We see this with the Hebrews and Sumerians, but also with the Greeks (myth of the races), the Hindus (cycle version with different ages - men to come will live a very long time again) and doubtless many others.
Excellent as always. Am I correct in that the flood has Adam dying n the year of the flood or just before? Guessing god did not want to drown his first created human?
Dan, do you have a good book recommendation that covers the editing and redactions that were carried iut by King Josiah aan the Jerusalem priests? I keep hearing about this sweeping rewrite of the Torah and would like to study the subject. Thanks.
Thanks. I've always been curious if there's any sense at all in those numbers. At least there's something you can extract from wasting time perusing them. How do you know that the Sumerian list influenced Genesis rather than the other way around? Perhaps the influence was the other way. Does anyone know why many of the numbers are divisible by 5?
I noticed the lineage similarities but had a different interpretation. I noticed that Cain's lineage ended on a wicked man with three sons who are all identified as originators of some skill or trade, and a daughter mentioned for apparently no reason. It seems like an ideal setup for a different myth where God talks to the daughter instead of Noah, and she recruits her brothers (one is even skilled in building things, and another is good at wrangling animals) so they can escape their evil parents and fallen world when the flood occurs. It also reminds me a lot of the Greek House of Atreus myth (a family is cursed by their ancestor committing an unnatural murder that offends the gods, the final cursed descendant is a man with two wives who commits an unnatural murder and ultimately falls victim to the curse, but the man's righteous children survive and escape the curse through divinely guided actions): possibly a common inspiration?
Let me see if I understand this properly, you have the people at AiG, and CMI, pretty much using the lineages present in Genesis to come up with the 6000 year old figure. You're saying that the amount of time was "creatively" altered?
Adam and Eve were originally created to be immortal. Literally superhumans. But when sin entered the world that's when their immortality was stripped away and they died. The reason why people took so long to die is because those people were closer to the original source. That's how I've always looked at it
Gen.6.3 - And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. [kjv] Gen.6.3 - Then GOD said, "I'm not going to breathe life into men and women endlessly. Eventually they're going to die; from now on they can expect a life span of 120 years." [msb]
One more reason which Dan didn't get into. The Hebrew used a seasonal solar calendar they borrowed from other cultures. They had no linear calendar spanning centuries as we do today. They dated their own lives to either a ruler or an event, such as a major flood. They probably could not have even told you when their grandparents were born, let alone beyond that time.
I couldn't find any attestation of 2 syllables being correct; I assumed it's a niche regionalism of some kind but if you can find it again and aren't disinterested in doing so can you send me a link?
Really fascinating I always wondered why the names of Cains descendants and Seths line were similar. I always wondered if the ages were representative of dynasties of some sort. That doesn't totally fit because then you have overlapping dynasties-but a monarchal/patriarchal type society might have looked very different anyways. Has that idea been suggested elsewhere?
I always found it funny if you added up all the years that would be needed to allow all those people to be those ages, the earth would be over 6000 years old. Which ofc it is but i think you get my point
Well, that's exactly how Bishop Ussher calculated the date of Creation to October 12, 4004bc, by adding up the ages of the Patriarchs. IF these Patriarchs lived 'normal' lifespans, we may well find Creationists arguing that a Young Earth is now only around 3 or 4 thousand years old! 😱
I heard someone say it's possible that some ancients counted in moon cycles instead of sun years so 900 moon cycles is doable. I personally wonder if it was some type of encoded gematria they were using though.
Could you recommend resources (papers, monographs, etc) concerning the hypothesis summarised in the video? It looks interesting. I'm also curious concerning your opinion on Hendel's proposal (in The Text of Genesis 1-11, quoting others) that the MT and SP versions of Genesis 5 are the ones featuring later editions (meant to prevent "narrative conflicts" in the chronology), and its merits and flaws in your eyes, if you don't mind discussing it. Quote from Hendel's book (pp 62-3) (to provide some context for YT comments enjoyers): In the antediluvian chronology from Adam to Noah in Gen 5:3-32, three patriarchs-Jared, Methuselah, and Lamech-die in or near the year of the flood in all the major versions. In S, all three die in the year of the flood. In M, Methuselah dies in the year of the flood, and Jared and Lamech die earlier. In G, Jared and Lamech die before the flood, and Methuselah survives the flood by 14 years. It is notable that only for these three patriarchs do the numbers of M and S diverge. When one considers these variations among the versions, the suspicion arises that the death of these three patriarchs and the date of the onset of the flood may once have clashed, as they still do for Methuselah in G. If in the archetypal chronology of Genesis 5 Jared, Methuselah, and Lamech survived the flood, this problem would provide sufficient warrant for scribes to correct the text by adjusting the chronology. This is the solution proposed by Klein: "the original chronology implied that three patriarchs lived through the flood, and this was resolved in quite different ways" (1974a: 263). There is no room in the narrative for other human survivors. Recent studies of this issue by Hughes and Etz agree with Klein on this point: "The coincidence between the year of Methuselah's death and the year of the flood in MT's chronology, and similar coincidences in the case of Jared, Methuselah, and Lamech in SP's chronology, seem to have resulted from application of the minimum adjustment that would ensure that these ancestors died before the start of the flood" (Hughes 1990: 14; similarly Etz 1993: 172-75). [...] This motive for the chronological variants of Genesis 5 and 11 -that the ancestors' ages originally extended across narrative boundaries-is consistent with the widely held view that these genealogical texts derive from an originally independent document, the ספר תולדת אדם , "Book of the Generations of Adam" (Gen 5:1; see Cross 1973: 301-5; Wallace 1990; Carr 1996: 70-73). When the P writer or redactor integrated this work into the narrative context, he may not have perceived (or may have been unconcerned with) the implicit chronological conflicts. It remained for later scribes to detect the problems and to incorporate their textual solutions.
Given how much religion tries to convince us that Humanity is inherently wicked and sinful, I'm honestly surprised that we are said to descend from the "righteous" lineage. Wouldn't it be more consistent for the story if we were all descended from Cain, the first murderer, instead?
Old Testament writers often gravitated to the number 7 as it was considered good luck, maybe because there were seven visible celestial bodies in the skies. So, to add to the bit about Lemech and the number 7, the bible says "If Cain is avenged seven times, Then Lamech seventy-seven times!" *and then Lamech supposedly lives to be 777 years old?* If that doesn't SCREAM mythology then I don't know what does.
How about considering Genesis 6:3 where the command to limit the age of man is given? Prior to this, it could be interpreted that God's spirit (from the breath of life breathed into Adam) is the cause of the long age.
I remember thinking that there were two Enochs, one that was the son of Cain and the other, more famous one that was in the lineage between Adam and Noah. I didn't note the emphasis on the 7th position, but I did wonder why someone many generations down the lineage of Seth would name their child after a son of Cain.
Its interesting that there were two and that the later could be named the same without reference to the earlier while only being "after" by timing. There were unfortunately descendents of Abraham believing they were "righteous" by inheritence while ignoring those prophets and God repeatedly making clear that all are sinners. To say length of ages was made up because other texts of other people groups did that ignores science but that is understandable since much so-called science the last few centuries presupposes the truth of ancient religions and ignores evidence. Just think of the multiple causes of death and decay in this universe and understand that we as humans have caused many attempting to solve problems we have denied being the cause of.
I had this idea that the ages of the patriarchs age was or it a calendar of sorts and this some kind of countdown or something of the sort. Like numerological cypher of sorts. Thoughts?
Other cultures talk of longer and more glorious lives. See, for instance, accounts of ancient Chinese cultures. And I’m reminded of the current admonition to “Make America Great Again” without any common understanding of when it was great.
Wouldn't it be pretty tough to change all of the copies? How would later editors do that? Was every scroll in the same city place at the same time? Isn't that a lot like saying later editors changed the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament? Pretty tough to do when they're all over. Wouldn't it make more sense that the earliest scrolls we have were the erroneous versions, and we just haven't found the earlier versions that match what we have today? Are we just waiting for those to be found to prove the current septuagint and masoretic text the older tradition?
These texts weren’t all over though, especially within Judaism which was centered around Jerusalem. If the priests in Jerusalem changed something, they held the most authoritative manuscripts and most later copies would be based on their texts. And there almost certainly were a variety of manuscript traditions going around that eventually died off. Like in the Dead Sea scrolls, sometimes we have variations that support Septuagint readings, some times they support masoretic readings, and sometimes a unique reading not found in either text. Look for a more authoritative source in this than me for the next claim because I’m a bit fuzzy on it, but I’m fairly certain that the farther back in time our manuscripts go, the more variations we see and it was actually that the various text traditions were homogenized as some spread more rapidly than others or some had readings that were more preferable. And I don’t see how it makes more sense that our earlier sources are more erroneous than more recent sources. If our earliest manuscripts have a certain reading or variety of readings, then we see a new reading show up a couple hundred years later and eventually become dominant, why would you assume that what’s now dominant is original? It doesn’t follow that a reading being more popular makes it more original, especially when these different textual traditions come from different locations and it’s essentially geopolitically coincidence that certain traditions became more popular than others as the most important cities were exporting their texts more than less important cities.
Due to the firmament (a bubble so to speak around earth slightly indented at the poles due to magnetic field) earths atmosphere was twice what it is today, the harmful solar radiation was adsorbed by the bubble which kept our magnetic field stable after the flood the bubble was gone and lifelines started to rapidly decrease as has our magnetic field.
Do you feel that the flood story is a replication of the ancient Sumerian flood myth and further reinforced by the constant flooding of the Nile Delta?
Average atheist saying that christians are stupid yet give no arguments besides petty insults like "Christians are dumb" because apparently you're so much smarter and superior because you think everything exploded from nothing
Its almost like second temple Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism. Oh wait, that is actually what happened with some heavy influence of cannabis to boot.
Humankind's span of life or age "shrank" in the scriptures simply because a new calendar was developed by the Chaldeans, a calendar that was based on the solar system of 365 days. Before this time, the age of people was computed by the lunar or seasonal calendars. If we were to divide the ages of some of the men who lived 800 or 900 years by 12, we would find that they lived to 75 or 80 years old. And by dividing the ages of those who lived 300 to 500 by the four seasons, we would discover that they lived a normal long span of a 120 to 125yrs. We have to remember there were different writers and not all was written at the same time. They weren't just "making up stuff" as modern skeptics might assume. And last, when we read "and God took him," this is an Aramaic idiom meaning, "he died peacefully."
So who were these 'editors' who fiddled? Personally I have no problem believing that the ancients (older than 2000 BCE) did have very long lives even a couple hundred years old but 28000 to 43000 is clearly not a fact.
@@juanausensi499 - yes, Vampire Hunter D takes place in the past, before the flood, not in the future. I think we solved this mystery today. Well done!
No. The Bible isn't "accurate" in the modern sense and IMO it was never intended to be. It's not a history book. It's a collection of religious texts from very long ago. Religious texts have the express purpose of conveying points about religion through mythology, song, pontificating, etc.
It would sound like a fiction nowadays but those things actually happened considering that a lot of things can't explain like how the humans got intelligent and how languages were formed also why this so-called "fiction" is spreading in different languages too
@@scrappycoco6282 actually none of those things actually happened....No one has ever lived to be 950 yrs old...no one ever walked on water...a donkey has never had a conversation with a person....Jesus is never coming back....witches are not real....no one ever was swallowed by a fish and lived inside the fish for 3 days.....people with mental disorders are not possessed by evil demons....just childish nonsense.
How about Enoch, Jared and Methuselah not being borrowed from Cain's line, and it just so happens they have similar names, and this shows as a witness reflecting the long ongoing battle of satan and his seed trying to imitate and infiltrate the righteous customs and institutions that God has set up, constantly trying to pollute or exterminate the Godly seed. (Isa 14:13-15, Matt 2:16-18, Exo 7:8-23, Exo 8:1-8, 2 Corinth 11:13-15, 2 Thess 2:1-12, Exo 1:15-22, Psa 106:34-39. setting up the apostate church, false religions and the ungodly blasphemous world government/s Rev 2:9,12,13, Matt 13:24-30,36-43, Acts 20:28-31, Rev 13, 17 and 18. Just like God gives power to His witnesses; Rev 11:3-13, so does the enemy to do false miracles Rev 13:4-15, Rev 16:12-14. The enemy has his apostate religious institution which is the wh*re and God has His chaste Holy Bride the Church/Israel; Rev 17 and Rev 12, Rev 19:7-9, Eph 5:26-28, 2 Corinth 11:2, Joel 2:15,16.) Methuselah dying the year of the flood does not automatically mean that he died in the flood. The sons of Seth are the godly seed, and are called Bnaiy Elohim (Sons of God), the line from whom the appointed seed of the woman will come to crush the serpent's head aka Christ (Gen 3:15, Psa 91:13, Isa 53:5,10, Col 2:14,15, Gen 4:25,26, Gen 6:1,2) This line was righteous and it would not be becoming of the Lord to slay the righteous with the wicked and cause the righteous to succumb to the punishment set for sinners.(Gen 18:25, 2 Kings 22:1,2,10-20, 2 Kings 23:1-3,25, Revelation 7:3). The flood came on the 17th Day of the 2nd Month (Gen 7:11,12), so this gives the perfect amount of time for God to honour and deal kindly with His righteous servants, allowing them to take their rest most likely in the 1st month and have a proper burial deserved of a saint. (Gen 15:15 as opposed to 1 Kings 2:5,6, 2 Kings 23:15-20). Whether Jared and Lamech expired the year of the flood in the Samaritan Pentateuch, the same reasoned principle applies with that of Methuselah. The Masoretic says Lamech expired at 777yrs and went to rest before his father Methsuelah, which backs up my aforementioned righteous principle act which God was doing by putting them to sleep before the cup was filled for the wicked. Methsuelah being the oldest to live (969yrs) and doing so up until the flood was a witness to the world; as his name can mean (without the vowel marks) "his death shall send out/send forth/shoot out, set free/let down" i.e The Flood 🌧💦🌊
Fundamentalists never read Genesis 1, that claims that plants, which require the Sun's warmth, were created on day 3, before the Sun was created on day 4 --- the pre science bible authors never knew about the Absolute Zero temperature of outer space. Each of the first 4 days had " evenings and mornings ", which require sunrises and sunsets to demarcate the division of daytime from nighttime --- yet the Sun wasn't created until day 4. " In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth ", which includes the billions of stars and planets discovered by the James Webb and Hubbell Telescopes, including our own Sun and Moon --- yet Genesis 1:16 says: " And God made two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser one to rule the night, and [ as a complete afterthought ] he made the stars also " While Genesis 1 claims that the Earth was created first, astrophysical science has established that the Sun formed first, and then the cooling gaseous matter formed the planets thereafter, including our own Earth. Somehow, 20 to 25% of Christians, and also all Seventh Day Adventists among others, still believe that Genesis 1 is history and scientific. Most Christians are forced to accept that Genesis 1 is: " Only metaphorical "
Ehh, fundamentalists "never read" those parts? That's a bold assertion. In fairness, even Answers in Genesis directly addresses this. Their answer: the localized cosmic light ordering Day/Night before the Sun. However, if you're dealing with the primordial age of Creation, simply saying "God's Creative power" achieved it is likely enough to answer it. If he can speak everything into being, surely he can speak...plants into being without the sun? As to the rest, it's not surprising they disagree with mainstream science. That's a critical part of the problem.
There is something called a divine light, God allowed for a divine light to be in earth Also the ancient Israelites could have cared less about what photosynthesis was, the main purpose the book is to provide laws and commandments for them In the very first few versus it says God created light so like light existed in earths atmosphere due to the divine light God gave it
@@xplicitgoofy1015 Yes, the reason why vegetation isn't in Antarctica is due to lack of heat from the Sun. The pre science bible authors never knew about the Absolute Zero temperature of outer space. Please use the search bar for: " Ancient Hebrew cosmology " It's not about the light.
@@xplicitgoofy1015 It's about the vast grasslands and millions of Pine and Deciduous forests and the lush tropical jungles needing the Sun's warmth ; it isn't only about the full spectrum sunlight.
@@dvonzosch461 I know and I get your view point but if a theists believes God created the universe and a earth that originally was formless, they 100% believe God could sustain the plant life using a divine light and then eventually giving that job and task to the sun For one it really is irrelevant to me, the Bible is a beautiful source of art and the imagery in it is just awesome to read, I believe in God because for me it’s far more plausible that a creator created everything than everything appearing from nothing Just makes me go insane trying to imagine and think what form I was in before birth and try to remember things before birth, I just can’t remember, I just popped into existence, now yes there is biological processes of course but it’s insane to think what were we in before birth and even after death what’s stopping us from returning into this same state of life but in a different universe? The universe is a fantastic and magnificent world that it makes sense to me and all powerful and intelligent creator made this all
@@fordprefect5304: Why do turtles / tortoises live upto 300 years, much longer than humans? Why do many underwater species like whales, sponges, etc. live longer than humans?? I am not a Christian. I follow Jainism (ancient religion of India). Most eastern religions also claim ancient humans had a longer lifespan than we do today. The claim is valid as our lifespan is allotted in the # of breaths; not years, days, or seconds. Despite humans having access to modern-day healthcare, turtles / tortoise have a longer lifespan (200 years) than humans as their breathing rate = 5 BPM average. There are many underwater species (e.g. whales) that also live longer than humans. If anything human lifespan has decreased and is still decreasing because of the medical industry (profit making). As we consume more breaths, the Oxygen reacts with Hydrogen to form Free Radicals, which reduces our lifespan. So now the question is what contributes to increased breathing rate and therby increased Oxygen inhalation? The factors include increased population, competition, greed, sexual activities, capitalism / slavery, obesity, smoking, fear, anxiety, depression, etc. These factors were not prevalent in the ancient times, so human beings were able to cultivate their breaths and they also had more # of breaths allowed to them.
@@Ex_christian: Jainism also claims ancient humans having thousands of years of lifespan. Look up Lord Rushabh in Jainism. Ancient humans were allocated more numbers of breaths and their breathing rate was much lower than today. Low breathing rate means low Oxygen consumption. The reason we age is because of Oxygen. The lung system is only designed to tolerate limited amount Oxygen before it leads to oxidative stress. Look at tortoise for example; they have a longer lifespan than humans because their breathing rate is lower.
So in short, it's all a bunch of hilarious fiction edited and manipulated over the years to support various people's religious aims. But in many other videos, this guy presents "information" about Jesus. Why does he discount all the crazy claims about people living hundreds or even thousands of years, but still claims the outrageous stories of miracles etc. are true?
I thought it had to do with people back then mostly using a different counting system as opposed to our base 10 system we use today. Guess I was wrong. Is there any historical basis for the calendars or how seasons were counted at the time of the Enoch, Noah and others? Like how do we know what these years/numbers are supposed to be? Did they use a similar 365 day calendar with similar seasons? Even if it was 'mythical' or was made up the dates would have some meaning/context behind them I suppose.
It is fairly easy to divide the "year" into smaller chunks, with days, lunar months, and multiples of days (e.g. weeks) or months. It is probable the ancient Hebrews used lunar months with leap months being thrown in every so often to ensure important festivals didn't drift too far equinoxes/solstices. But as for any antediluvian counting, about the only thing that can be attributed to is oral tradition
It’s quite possible that using a number like ‘900 years’ was just a way these tribal, non literate people said that a person lived a long time (and possibly an indication they lived a long time ago) and it wasn’t supposed to be literal.
Its fiction. Really. Jews wrote fictions about their origins. God made penises with foreskins and then wanted them cut off? And if a baby did not have it cut off at 8 days, it was outcast. lol. seriously this desert tribe's god is a monster.
Sure. Like in every day use we use terms like "millions" to mean "lots" and in context, no one expects that we necessarily mean some multiple of ten to the sixth power.
Ever try doing maths using Roman numerals ? Harder was their colanders , try finding the square root of XIIIVXCII multiplied by the fraction XXVCIII/VXBCXXX and round it off to the XVIIICVXXII number. Go on, I’ll wait
@@MrWeezer55 Yes (that was Dan's point) but I'm speaking about the idea that the numbers were meant to be divided by 12. Do you think the writers intended Enoch to have sex when he was 4?
Dividing by 12 makes more believable numbers. It is possible there were some kind of misinterpretation in the chain of orally transmitted stories. About Enoch's problem, it's easy to solve: the age was given in years well after the error was made and people just accepted the outrageous life spans.
It's certainly probable that people didnt live 20,000 years. Especially when writing about past kings It's nice to make them live longer so your reign has more legitimacy. Between mistranslation, cultural misunderstandings, different calendars, and humans being known proficient liars... you probably shouldnt believe many of those ages. Or just pray and ask god and let me know what he says 😂
That's an easy question. Once Adam and Eve sinned, mortality took effect but it took a while to have it's full effect on people. Over time, that's why lifespans declined.
I am not convinced. I mean, I get the argument about the Bible editors fiddling with ages and genealogies but still they were working with a lot older material and they elaborated on that. It doesn’t explain why originally people started using those excessively long ages. Saying “they just made them up” sounds deeply unsatisfactory.
Well it’s not as basic as you’ve framed it, the sliding of positions and rebuilding of lineage means certain people had to be a certain age. It might not be satisfactory but that’s the bible for you🤷♂️
I think it's more like they had rough memories of the genealogies and legends regarding how old things were, and then later had to come up with a way to make the genealogy fit. So they didn't just arbitrarily decide to make someone a certain age, but rather had a timeline they had to fit the genealogies into.
Well, the basic argument, when it comes to nonsensical things like this or the various contradictions in The Bible, is that everything must be true (literally) in The Bible, or nothing in The Bible can be depended upon. Well, all I know is, when I want information that is 100 percent accurate, I go to scriptures written by extremely primitive men ( NOT God) who had NO scientific knowledge whatsoever, put their own opinions and prejudices in their writings, and based a good deal of what they wrote on the myths and traditions of other civilizations. The Bible is not "infallible" or "inerrant" because The Bible is NOT God (because ONLY God is infallible and inerrant).
Doing the math, though, in the version that makes it into our modern Bibles, Methuselah's age still lines up with the year of the flood. Though his son / Noah's father Lamech still dies several years prior.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
I appreciate how informative you are on biblical texts, everytime I'm learning something new. Love the podcast as well! Thank you
It’s almost like Genesis is, and hear me out…. mythical.
You can be a Christian and concede that. Just say it’s allegory, it’s fine.
Thanks for clearing things up again, Dan.
there's no reason to think the original writers thought it was allegory. And if it is allegory, the meaning is just subjective opinion, as is identifying the parts that are allegory. Allegory = fiction.
@@scambammer6102He wasn't actually saying that.
--- the original bible author's viewpoint was what the Sumero Babylonian cosmology was.
Had the bible authors been supernaturally inspired by an all powerful and all knowing deity, they would have been able to describe the universe truthfully.
Evangelicals can't handle Genesis 1, which claims that plants, that require the Sun's warmth, were somehow created on day 3, before the Sun itself was created on day 4.
It was mythical.
I think the bible is total bunk from beginning to end. I am just disagreeing with his point about allegory. Allegory is an intentional literary device. That isn't what the bible writers were doing. They thought they were conveying god's word.
@@scambammer6102 There's no reason to assume they didn't think it was allegory either.
Then everything in the bible can be mythical. From Adam to Jesus. If Jesus is the "second Adam" and Adam was just mythical, this has serious consequences for the gospels and Christianity. Its just picking and choosing what u like and what not.
This is a very good explanation. It is such an odd thing that fundamentalists do when they read Genesis. They believe they are reading it respectfully by using the standards of post-enlightenment history, but this is actually imposing anachronistic standards on the text.
Fascinating! I went through my angry atheist phase from my twenties to my thirties. Now I'm a 40 year old atheist that studies the Bible with more vigor, and more joy than I ever did as a believer. Though I don't believe it to be true, the Bible k's more. Important in my life than it has ever been before.
Who knows, maybe the multiverse is true and the Bible events are true but in a different universe and some how a portal opened up and the scripture ended up in our universe
Oh! That's a bummer. I thought they were Númenóreans of sorts!
Thank you, Dan! Greetings from Argentina!
It does seem that Tolkien was tapping into that same line of mythological thought, that the righteous are long lived. Even if some fall out of righteousness, like Sauron and Saruman, they still retain their longevity because of their lineage.
In deed, @@autonomouscollective2599! In the case of the Númenóreans, there's an explicit link between their rampaging wickedness and their decreasing lifespan.
@@autonomouscollective2599 I remember in Catholic school being taught the decreasing lifespans of the Pentateuch patriarchs was an illustration of how original sin was steadily corrupting the world--Adam lived longer than Methuselah, who lived longer than Noah, who lived longer than Moses, etc. I haven't looked at it closely enough to see if that actually tracks, but it's possible Tolkien, a devout Catholic, was taught something similar.
I recently bought the NRSV on your suggestion and it’s great! I have a question though, what does it mean when it talks about the “priestly” and “non-priestly” versions of the Genesis stories?
It's cool to see you here!
There's an idea called the 'documentary hypothesis' that multiple sources composed different parts pf the five Books of Moses. The Priestly Source is one of those, seemingly a later editor that combined multiple stories and sometimes multiple versions of the same story into one document.
I agree with BradyPostma. It's always cool to see a much bigger RUclipsr still watch and interact with small channels!
@@BradyPostma what does the adjective “priestly” refer to?
@@JJMcCulloughThe concerns of Jewish priests: ritual, number, calendars, purity taboos. So the Genesis 1 story is considered "priestly" because of the emphasis on a divinely instituted week (six work days plus a sabbath). When in Genesis 7 God says to take 7 pairs of clean animals and 1 pair of unclean animals (when the prior chapter said just *two* of each kind), it's probably priestly. When you're reading Numbers and in the middle of an exciting story you get instructions for how to sacrifice a red heifer to purify after contact with the dead...priestly.
Essentially this class within the Jewish people were trying to root their ritual traditions within the stories of the Torah. They also probably played a large role in editing the books (Ezra - to whom the canon is traditionally attributed - is both a priest and a scribe, though he may be a legendary representative figure of the people who copied and taught the biblical books.) Hope that helps!
A really good book that details the sources of the first five books is "Who Wrote the Bible" by Richard Friedman.
Sounds like when a new comic book writer comes on and “retcons” a previous writer’s work
Retcons are Heresy!!!
How appropriate he is wearing an X-men shirt.
Without permanent monuments to record the passing years, a nomadic tribe could remember only as far back as its oldest member. As the sole surviver of one's generation, that person might just as well have been 90 as 900.
How wrong you are. It is well known that some tribes in the world would remember their ancestors for hundreds of years. Sometimes centuries later reburying many generations of ancestors in one tomb. For that to happen the dead must have been highly valued and regarded and remembered from generation to generation
@@colinsmith1288
Nomadic tribes?
@0nlyThis Why were the Jews a nomadic tribe. They were often a subjugated people.
@@colinsmith1288 The entire Pentateuch was written for tent dwellers.
Thankyou. This is very helpful. (Currently re-reading Genesis).
Excellent analysis, Dan.
For the exact same reasons that snakes can talk and have legs. You can write anything in a story.
for the same reason ur 💩💩💩🤡🤡🤡
The ancestors of snakes DID have legs, as they evolved from lizards during three different events. In the DreamTime animals can always speak to humans (“DreamTime” here referring to any mythic age, not just Australian Aboriginal’s period).
@@davidweihe6052 So you are agreeing with me?
Actually back then snakes did have legs lol
@@xplicitgoofy1015back when? During the time of creation story?
Then I have a problem for you. We've found snake fossils with legs.
So if snakes had legs before the fall the only fossils would be with legless snakes. But we have snake fossils with legs. So the literal take on that part of the Bible can't be true
I think Robert M. Best's theory in his book, "Noah's Ark and the Ziusudra Epic", makes a lot of sense, that the numbers were mistranslated from Sumerian because the Sumerians reused the symbols for numbers in three different ways depending on what they were counting, making such a mistake easy to make. Once he reverse translated them and re-translated them correctly, the ages seem to make sense. He also applied this to the Sumerian King's List and again they make sense.
The accounts of lifespans were of people that existed BEFORE the Sumerians, but was written down when God told Moses what happened in the beginning. The Sumerians had earlier writings than Moses who wrote the first five books, but Moses had divine information that they never had. That's why their account of the Ark was that it was like a square seven storey office building instead of the dimensions Moses recorded...and those dimensions help prove the Divine inspiration of the account of the flood because the proportions that God told Noah to make the ark, are the same proportions used in ship building today. The Sumerian proportions ? Not so much.
@@markanthony3275 Moses didn't write all of Genesis and perhaps none of it. The early parts were added later during the Babylonian exile. There are half a dozen flood stories found written in cuneiform with God telling someone to build a boat and to take animals on it by twos and sevens and released birds after the rain stopped. These are all related and the version in the Bible is one of the last versions. The size and shape of the ark varied in each version and isn't important to the story anyway. God didn't relate the flood story to Moses. The Bible doesn't say He did either.
The old adage: "don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!" :-)
I am not a Christian. I follow Jainism (ancient religion of India). Most eastern religions also claim ancient humans had a longer lifespan than we do today. The claim is valid as our lifespan is allotted in the # of breaths; not years, days, or seconds. Despite humans having access to modern-day healthcare, turtles / tortoise have a longer lifespan (200 years) than humans as their breathing rate = 5 BPM average. There are many underwater species (e.g. whales) that also live longer than humans. If anything human lifespan has decreased and is still decreasing because of the medical industry (profit making).
As we consume more breaths, the Oxygen reacts with Hydrogen to form Free Radicals, which reduces our lifespan. So now the question is what contributes to increased breathing rate and therby increased Oxygen inhalation? The factors include increased population, competition, greed, sexual activities, capitalism / slavery, obesity, smoking, fear, anxiety, depression, etc. These factors were not prevalent in the ancient times, so human beings were able to cultivate their breaths and they also had more # of breaths allowed to them.
@@mshah1193 Nice try, but no cigar. First of all, scientists control for environmental factors [like smoking and all the bits you mentioned]. Life span calculations are complex, but species-dependent.
True, PART the reason that turtles /tortoises live longer is based on their Basal Metabolic Rate. Therefore they consume less oxygen, but they still have the same problems of free radicals as any other eukaryotic organism. Besides, comparing Anapsid survival rates to mammals like humans is comparing apples to oranges. Anapsids are poikilotherms [no metabolic temp regulation], whereas mammals and birds are homeothermic. The last means that humans etc actively use energy to keep our body temperature within narrow limits.
Plus mammals and bird have relatively large brains compared to reptiles and this too takes a lot of energy. [Glucose "burned" by oxygen in the Krebs cycle].
Next fallacy. Whales have the same sort of life spans as us: Orcas and blue whales around 90 years, but other species like the Buluga, only 35-50 years. Humans can live about 130 years, but that is VERY exceptional, 70 to 90 years is more common. In any case, a hundred-odd years is nothing like the claims of the bible [up to 900 years]
No, the medical industry has increased life spans, not decreased them. The average age of humans in the pre-medical science era was about 45-60 years at best. You would occasionally get a lucky 80 year old.
That is why the ancients had child marriages, because chances are you might die before you children became adults, hence 12 to 14 yo was usual for those days.
Lastly a claim of increased life span has nothing to do with it being true. Evidence is necessary. In the bible it was claimed Jesus turned a few rolls and a handful of fish that could feed 5000. Do you think that claim is credible without good evidence?
All religions love to tell yarns to impress the locals. Especially miracles and other dramatic, if dubious happenings like resurrection and reincarnation.
"Slavery was not prevalent in ancient times? Are you joking?
Anyway, that is enough for now. I suggest your hypotheses needs further work.
Because they don't eat McDonald's 😉
The Qur'an copies these myths but puts them into the mouth of God: "We certainly sent Noah to his people, and he remained among them a thousand years minus fifty years, and the flood seized them while they were wrongdoers." (29:14)
The idea that ancient man lived longer is a common trope: mythical ancestors, closer to creation and the gods, lived long lives in the image of their creators. But as men gradually distanced themselves from the divine, they degenerated and their lives shortened. We see this with the Hebrews and Sumerians, but also with the Greeks (myth of the races), the Hindus (cycle version with different ages - men to come will live a very long time again) and doubtless many others.
The authors knew people don’t live that long so why would they even write it that way?
Excellent as always. Am I correct in that the flood has Adam dying n the year of the flood or just before? Guessing god did not want to drown his first created human?
Dan, do you have a good book recommendation that covers the editing and redactions that were carried iut by King Josiah aan the Jerusalem priests? I keep hearing about this sweeping rewrite of the Torah and would like to study the subject. Thanks.
Thanks. I've always been curious if there's any sense at all in those numbers. At least there's something you can extract from wasting time perusing them.
How do you know that the Sumerian list influenced Genesis rather than the other way around? Perhaps the influence was the other way.
Does anyone know why many of the numbers are divisible by 5?
I noticed the lineage similarities but had a different interpretation. I noticed that Cain's lineage ended on a wicked man with three sons who are all identified as originators of some skill or trade, and a daughter mentioned for apparently no reason. It seems like an ideal setup for a different myth where God talks to the daughter instead of Noah, and she recruits her brothers (one is even skilled in building things, and another is good at wrangling animals) so they can escape their evil parents and fallen world when the flood occurs. It also reminds me a lot of the Greek House of Atreus myth (a family is cursed by their ancestor committing an unnatural murder that offends the gods, the final cursed descendant is a man with two wives who commits an unnatural murder and ultimately falls victim to the curse, but the man's righteous children survive and escape the curse through divinely guided actions): possibly a common inspiration?
Very interesting Dan! Thank you.
Let me see if I understand this properly, you have the people at AiG, and CMI, pretty much using the lineages present in Genesis to come up with the 6000 year old figure. You're saying that the amount of time was "creatively" altered?
Is there a source we can see that the editing actually happened in regards to both septugiant and masoretic texts?
It is widely available look it up on google
Nobody has ever lived to be that old. A talking donkey told me that.
I remember thinking the long years as simply referring to a dynastic line. Now, I just accept that it was made up for reasons.
You are the best❤
Boooom!!! Use strongs numbering, it gives meanings 😊
Adam 930
Plural form of the Hebrew word בְּהֵמָה (behemah), meaning "beast" or "animal."
Adam and Eve were originally created to be immortal. Literally superhumans. But when sin entered the world that's when their immortality was stripped away and they died. The reason why people took so long to die is because those people were closer to the original source. That's how I've always looked at it
At this point, people just try to rationalize a myth.
Gen.6.3 - And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. [kjv]
Gen.6.3 - Then GOD said, "I'm not going to breathe life into men and women endlessly. Eventually they're going to die; from now on they can expect a life span of 120 years." [msb]
Why does Jacob live until 147 then?
One more reason which Dan didn't get into.
The Hebrew used a seasonal solar calendar they borrowed from other cultures. They had no linear calendar spanning centuries as we do today. They dated their own lives to either a ruler or an event, such as a major flood. They probably could not have even told you when their grandparents were born, let alone beyond that time.
How have I gone 56 years without hearing someone pronounce lineage with 2 syllables instead of 3? They’re both correct, I checked. 😜
I couldn't find any attestation of 2 syllables being correct; I assumed it's a niche regionalism of some kind but if you can find it again and aren't disinterested in doing so can you send me a link?
Really fascinating I always wondered why the names of Cains descendants and Seths line were similar.
I always wondered if the ages were representative of dynasties of some sort. That doesn't totally fit because then you have overlapping dynasties-but a monarchal/patriarchal type society might have looked very different anyways. Has that idea been suggested elsewhere?
I always found it funny if you added up all the years that would be needed to allow all those people to be those ages, the earth would be over 6000 years old. Which ofc it is but i think you get my point
Well, that's exactly how Bishop Ussher calculated the date of Creation to October 12, 4004bc, by adding up the ages of the Patriarchs. IF these Patriarchs lived 'normal' lifespans, we may well find Creationists arguing that a Young Earth is now only around 3 or 4 thousand years old! 😱
Why was Superman so strong? This is you guys.
I heard someone say it's possible that some ancients counted in moon cycles instead of sun years so 900 moon cycles is doable. I personally wonder if it was some type of encoded gematria they were using though.
They was eating buckwheat to live that long, specifically the Rumex hydrolapathum. Eating this allowed 9000 years reign
Could you recommend resources (papers, monographs, etc) concerning the hypothesis summarised in the video? It looks interesting.
I'm also curious concerning your opinion on Hendel's proposal (in The Text of Genesis 1-11, quoting others) that the MT and SP versions of Genesis 5 are the ones featuring later editions (meant to prevent "narrative conflicts" in the chronology), and its merits and flaws in your eyes, if you don't mind discussing it.
Quote from Hendel's book (pp 62-3) (to provide some context for YT comments enjoyers):
In the antediluvian chronology from Adam to Noah in Gen 5:3-32, three patriarchs-Jared, Methuselah, and Lamech-die in or near the year of the flood in all the major versions. In S, all three die in the year of the flood. In M, Methuselah dies in the year of the flood, and Jared and Lamech die earlier. In G, Jared and Lamech die before the flood, and Methuselah survives the flood by 14 years. It is notable that only for these three patriarchs do the numbers of M and S diverge. When one considers these variations among the versions, the suspicion arises that the death of these three patriarchs and the date of the onset of the flood may once have clashed, as they still do for Methuselah in G. If in the archetypal chronology of Genesis 5 Jared, Methuselah, and Lamech survived the flood, this problem would provide sufficient warrant for scribes to correct the text by adjusting the chronology. This is the solution proposed by Klein: "the original chronology implied that three patriarchs lived through the flood, and this was resolved in quite different ways" (1974a: 263).
There is no room in the narrative for other human survivors. Recent studies of this issue by Hughes and Etz agree with Klein on this point: "The coincidence between the
year of Methuselah's death and the year of the flood in MT's chronology, and similar coincidences in the case of Jared, Methuselah, and Lamech in SP's
chronology, seem to have resulted from application of the minimum adjustment that would ensure that these ancestors died before the start of the flood" (Hughes
1990: 14; similarly Etz 1993: 172-75). [...]
This motive for the chronological variants of Genesis 5 and 11 -that the ancestors' ages originally extended across narrative boundaries-is consistent with the widely held view that these genealogical texts derive from an originally independent document, the ספר תולדת אדם , "Book of the Generations of Adam" (Gen 5:1; see Cross 1973: 301-5; Wallace 1990; Carr 1996: 70-73). When the P writer or redactor integrated this work into the narrative context, he may not have perceived (or may have been unconcerned with) the implicit chronological conflicts. It remained for later scribes to detect the problems and to incorporate their textual solutions.
A good discussion of the position I shared that responds to those concerns is David Carr's book, The Formation of Genesis 1-11.
@@maklelan Thank you so much! I had read it a few years ago but forgotten most of that part, and rereading ch. 4 was indeed really insightful.
Given how much religion tries to convince us that Humanity is inherently wicked and sinful, I'm honestly surprised that we are said to descend from the "righteous" lineage. Wouldn't it be more consistent for the story if we were all descended from Cain, the first murderer, instead?
Old Testament writers often gravitated to the number 7 as it was considered good luck, maybe because there were seven visible celestial bodies in the skies. So, to add to the bit about Lemech and the number 7, the bible says "If Cain is avenged seven times, Then Lamech seventy-seven times!" *and then Lamech supposedly lives to be 777 years old?* If that doesn't SCREAM mythology then I don't know what does.
How about considering Genesis 6:3 where the command to limit the age of man is given? Prior to this, it could be interpreted that God's spirit (from the breath of life breathed into Adam) is the cause of the long age.
I remember thinking that there were two Enochs, one that was the son of Cain and the other, more famous one that was in the lineage between Adam and Noah. I didn't note the emphasis on the 7th position, but I did wonder why someone many generations down the lineage of Seth would name their child after a son of Cain.
same here. interesting that the later account washed the evil out of the lineage.
@@scambammer6102 Must've been something in those flood waters...
Its interesting that there were two and that the later could be named the same without reference to the earlier while only being "after" by timing. There were unfortunately descendents of Abraham believing they were "righteous" by inheritence while ignoring those prophets and God repeatedly making clear that all are sinners. To say length of ages was made up because other texts of other people groups did that ignores science but that is understandable since much so-called science the last few centuries presupposes the truth of ancient religions and ignores evidence. Just think of the multiple causes of death and decay in this universe and understand that we as humans have caused many attempting to solve problems we have denied being the cause of.
I had this idea that the ages of the patriarchs age was or it a calendar of sorts and this some kind of countdown or something of the sort. Like numerological cypher of sorts. Thoughts?
loved this one
It’s not surprising if you look at the Bible the same way you look at the Iliad and the Odyssey. =)
Common for heirs/usurpers to just keep using the same king's name back then. Think "Dread Pirate Roberts."
Other cultures talk of longer and more glorious lives. See, for instance, accounts of ancient Chinese cultures. And I’m reminded of the current admonition to “Make America Great Again” without any common understanding of when it was great.
But u wont live anywhere else huh u old fool 😂
What about the claim that the numbers in the Sumerian king list are the numbers in Genesis using a numerical base of 60?
Wouldn't it be pretty tough to change all of the copies? How would later editors do that? Was every scroll in the same city place at the same time? Isn't that a lot like saying later editors changed the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament? Pretty tough to do when they're all over. Wouldn't it make more sense that the earliest scrolls we have were the erroneous versions, and we just haven't found the earlier versions that match what we have today? Are we just waiting for those to be found to prove the current septuagint and masoretic text the older tradition?
These texts weren’t all over though, especially within Judaism which was centered around Jerusalem. If the priests in Jerusalem changed something, they held the most authoritative manuscripts and most later copies would be based on their texts. And there almost certainly were a variety of manuscript traditions going around that eventually died off. Like in the Dead Sea scrolls, sometimes we have variations that support Septuagint readings, some times they support masoretic readings, and sometimes a unique reading not found in either text.
Look for a more authoritative source in this than me for the next claim because I’m a bit fuzzy on it, but I’m fairly certain that the farther back in time our manuscripts go, the more variations we see and it was actually that the various text traditions were homogenized as some spread more rapidly than others or some had readings that were more preferable.
And I don’t see how it makes more sense that our earlier sources are more erroneous than more recent sources. If our earliest manuscripts have a certain reading or variety of readings, then we see a new reading show up a couple hundred years later and eventually become dominant, why would you assume that what’s now dominant is original? It doesn’t follow that a reading being more popular makes it more original, especially when these different textual traditions come from different locations and it’s essentially geopolitically coincidence that certain traditions became more popular than others as the most important cities were exporting their texts more than less important cities.
So I have to ask, what do you think the origins of humanity is? Where did people come from?
It's called "evolution".
Due to the firmament (a bubble so to speak around earth slightly indented at the poles due to magnetic field) earths atmosphere was twice what it is today, the harmful solar radiation was adsorbed by the bubble which kept our magnetic field stable after the flood the bubble was gone and lifelines started to rapidly decrease as has our magnetic field.
Why do they wait till they're 150 to have their first kid.
Jesus, the sun, lives 12 solar months. 6 of the months = summer solstice - winter solstice and 6 of the months = winter solstice - summer solstice.
I liked Genesis before Phil Collins tookover....Just kidding.
Great posting, once again. Thank you!
Do you feel that the flood story is a replication of the ancient Sumerian flood myth and further reinforced by the constant flooding of the Nile Delta?
Why are people who believe in Genesis still living in 2024?
Brainwashing and grooming along with preying on the weak.
Because Phil Collins and Mike Rutherford rock! 😁
Average atheist saying that christians are stupid yet give no arguments besides petty insults like "Christians are dumb" because apparently you're so much smarter and superior because you think everything exploded from nothing
@@DamienKarras1 Sorry but the only real Genesis had Peter Gabriel in it.
To tell you about your True God, but you refuse to listen.
lin-e-age, three syllables
Its almost like second temple Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism. Oh wait, that is actually what happened with some heavy influence of cannabis to boot.
It was much more likely that you died young of a tooth ache, a bad berry, a drought, or childbirth.
I am SO disappointed. All this time, I thought they were elves.
Humankind's span of life or age "shrank" in the scriptures simply because a new calendar was developed by the Chaldeans, a calendar that was based on the solar system of 365 days. Before this time, the age of people was computed by the lunar or seasonal calendars. If we were to divide the ages of some of the men who lived 800 or 900 years by 12, we would find that they lived to 75 or 80 years old. And by dividing the ages of those who lived 300 to 500 by the four seasons, we would discover that they lived a normal long span of a 120 to 125yrs. We have to remember there were different writers and not all was written at the same time. They weren't just "making up stuff" as modern skeptics might assume. And last, when we read "and God took him," this is an Aramaic idiom meaning, "he died peacefully."
*How is all this embellished fantasy mythology important?*
odd that fits the 10 kings then a little king rises up and 3 are destroyed
Righteous......and incredibly strong swimmers. Unless there is a missing chapter referencing Noah's dinghy.
The writers developed Hand Dystonia and fudged things to cut down on the writing.
So who were these 'editors' who fiddled? Personally I have no problem believing that the ancients (older than 2000 BCE) did have very long lives even a couple hundred years old but 28000 to 43000 is clearly not a fact.
excellent
Maybe the elders in Genesis were cybernetic beings sent from the future to kill the line of John Conners.
Every think of that?
Don't be silly. They were obviously vampires.
@@juanausensi499 - yes, Vampire Hunter D takes place in the past, before the flood, not in the future.
I think we solved this mystery today. Well done!
The Catholic Church "fiddled with ages".
Is any of the Bible accurate?
According to this guy it is not ....he acts like a bible expert but in reality he just makes up most that he says
@@bspallet874 that's funny. You know most people who have actually studied these things agree with Dan on most topics right?
No. The Bible isn't "accurate" in the modern sense and IMO it was never intended to be. It's not a history book. It's a collection of religious texts from very long ago. Religious texts have the express purpose of conveying points about religion through mythology, song, pontificating, etc.
@@travis1240 anyone that associates themselves with science will agree with him ..he is just a RUclipsr
@@bspallet874 I’ve researched what he says and it’s all been true. He’s a Bible scholar with lots of education and experience to back up his claims.
"Why are people in Genesis living to be 900 years old?" If reality doesn't fit our book, we just change reality, right.
Amazing! 🤯
it is clearly a book of fiction......I wish sometime you would mention the ridiculous talking donkey in the bible.....
He did on his Data>Dogma podcast
It would sound like a fiction nowadays but those things actually happened considering that a lot of things can't explain like how the humans got intelligent and how languages were formed also why this so-called "fiction" is spreading in different languages too
Ok let's see it....
@@scrappycoco6282 actually none of those things actually happened....No one has ever lived to be 950 yrs old...no one ever walked on water...a donkey has never had a conversation with a person....Jesus is never coming back....witches are not real....no one ever was swallowed by a fish and lived inside the fish for 3 days.....people with mental disorders are not possessed by evil demons....just childish nonsense.
@@scrappycoco6282 Yeah, snakes and donkeys don't actually talk. It's fiction.
Ancient Sci-Fi
Not saying “ancient aliens”…… But….🤣🤣👍
So basically they wrote fanfics for their patriarchs.
you may want to delve into the study of genetic genealogies.
Dan, I don't think I heard you address why the life-ages dropped after the flood? Could you address that please?
The Annunaki is the answer Dan..
How about Enoch, Jared and Methuselah not being borrowed from Cain's line, and it just so happens they have similar names, and this shows as a witness reflecting the long ongoing battle of satan and his seed trying to imitate and infiltrate the righteous customs and institutions that God has set up, constantly trying to pollute or exterminate the Godly seed. (Isa 14:13-15, Matt 2:16-18, Exo 7:8-23, Exo 8:1-8, 2 Corinth 11:13-15, 2 Thess 2:1-12, Exo 1:15-22, Psa 106:34-39. setting up the apostate church, false religions and the ungodly blasphemous world government/s Rev 2:9,12,13, Matt 13:24-30,36-43, Acts 20:28-31, Rev 13, 17 and 18. Just like God gives power to His witnesses; Rev 11:3-13, so does the enemy to do false miracles Rev 13:4-15, Rev 16:12-14. The enemy has his apostate religious institution which is the wh*re and God has His chaste Holy Bride the Church/Israel; Rev 17 and Rev 12, Rev 19:7-9, Eph 5:26-28, 2 Corinth 11:2, Joel 2:15,16.)
Methuselah dying the year of the flood does not automatically mean that he died in the flood. The sons of Seth are the godly seed, and are called Bnaiy Elohim (Sons of God), the line from whom the appointed seed of the woman will come to crush the serpent's head aka Christ (Gen 3:15, Psa 91:13, Isa 53:5,10, Col 2:14,15, Gen 4:25,26, Gen 6:1,2)
This line was righteous and it would not be becoming of the Lord to slay the righteous with the wicked and cause the righteous to succumb to the punishment set for sinners.(Gen 18:25, 2 Kings 22:1,2,10-20, 2 Kings 23:1-3,25, Revelation 7:3). The flood came on the 17th Day of the 2nd Month (Gen 7:11,12), so this gives the perfect amount of time for God to honour and deal kindly with His righteous servants, allowing them to take their rest most likely in the 1st month and have a proper burial deserved of a saint. (Gen 15:15 as opposed to 1 Kings 2:5,6, 2 Kings 23:15-20). Whether Jared and Lamech expired the year of the flood in the Samaritan Pentateuch, the same reasoned principle applies with that of Methuselah. The Masoretic says Lamech expired at 777yrs and went to rest before his father Methsuelah, which backs up my aforementioned righteous principle act which God was doing by putting them to sleep before the cup was filled for the wicked. Methsuelah being the oldest to live (969yrs) and doing so up until the flood was a witness to the world; as his name can mean (without the vowel marks) "his death shall send out/send forth/shoot out, set free/let down" i.e The Flood 🌧💦🌊
Fundamentalists never read Genesis 1, that claims that plants, which require the Sun's warmth, were created on day 3, before the Sun was created on day 4
--- the pre science bible authors never knew about the Absolute Zero temperature of outer space.
Each of the first 4 days had " evenings and mornings ", which require sunrises and sunsets to demarcate the division of daytime from nighttime
--- yet the Sun wasn't created until day 4.
" In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth ", which includes the billions of stars and planets discovered by the James Webb and Hubbell Telescopes, including our own Sun and Moon
--- yet Genesis 1:16 says:
" And God made two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser one to rule the night, and [ as a complete afterthought ] he made the stars also "
While Genesis 1 claims that the Earth was created first, astrophysical science has established that the Sun formed first, and then the cooling gaseous matter formed the planets thereafter, including our own Earth.
Somehow, 20 to 25% of Christians, and also all Seventh Day Adventists among others, still believe that Genesis 1 is history and scientific.
Most Christians are forced to accept that Genesis 1 is:
" Only metaphorical "
Ehh, fundamentalists "never read" those parts? That's a bold assertion. In fairness, even Answers in Genesis directly addresses this. Their answer: the localized cosmic light ordering Day/Night before the Sun. However, if you're dealing with the primordial age of Creation, simply saying "God's Creative power" achieved it is likely enough to answer it. If he can speak everything into being, surely he can speak...plants into being without the sun?
As to the rest, it's not surprising they disagree with mainstream science. That's a critical part of the problem.
There is something called a divine light, God allowed for a divine light to be in earth
Also the ancient Israelites could have cared less about what photosynthesis was, the main purpose the book is to provide laws and commandments for them
In the very first few versus it says God created light so like light existed in earths atmosphere due to the divine light God gave it
@@xplicitgoofy1015 Yes, the reason why vegetation isn't in Antarctica is due to lack of heat from the Sun. The pre science bible authors never knew about the Absolute Zero temperature of outer space.
Please use the search bar for:
" Ancient Hebrew cosmology "
It's not about the light.
@@xplicitgoofy1015 It's about the vast grasslands and millions of Pine and Deciduous forests and the lush tropical jungles needing the Sun's warmth ; it isn't only about the full spectrum sunlight.
@@dvonzosch461 I know and I get your view point but if a theists believes God created the universe and a earth that originally was formless, they 100% believe God could sustain the plant life using a divine light and then eventually giving that job and task to the sun
For one it really is irrelevant to me, the Bible is a beautiful source of art and the imagery in it is just awesome to read, I believe in God because for me it’s far more plausible that a creator created everything than everything appearing from nothing
Just makes me go insane trying to imagine and think what form I was in before birth and try to remember things before birth, I just can’t remember, I just popped into existence, now yes there is biological processes of course but it’s insane to think what were we in before birth and even after death what’s stopping us from returning into this same state of life but in a different universe? The universe is a fantastic and magnificent world that it makes sense to me and all powerful and intelligent creator made this all
Well, that is super interesting.
My favorite Biblical figure is Spider-Man. He exists because I said so, just now.
How could anyone be a believer after listening to Dan ?
How can anyone believe someone lived 900 years and not be a total moron?
@@fordprefect5304I see your 900 years and I’ll raise you a talking lizard/serpent/dragon.
@@fordprefect5304: Why do turtles / tortoises live upto 300 years, much longer than humans? Why do many underwater species like whales, sponges, etc. live longer than humans??
I am not a Christian. I follow Jainism (ancient religion of India). Most eastern religions also claim ancient humans had a longer lifespan than we do today. The claim is valid as our lifespan is allotted in the # of breaths; not years, days, or seconds. Despite humans having access to modern-day healthcare, turtles / tortoise have a longer lifespan (200 years) than humans as their breathing rate = 5 BPM average. There are many underwater species (e.g. whales) that also live longer than humans. If anything human lifespan has decreased and is still decreasing because of the medical industry (profit making).
As we consume more breaths, the Oxygen reacts with Hydrogen to form Free Radicals, which reduces our lifespan. So now the question is what contributes to increased breathing rate and therby increased Oxygen inhalation? The factors include increased population, competition, greed, sexual activities, capitalism / slavery, obesity, smoking, fear, anxiety, depression, etc. These factors were not prevalent in the ancient times, so human beings were able to cultivate their breaths and they also had more # of breaths allowed to them.
How can anyone believe in any religious cult or be in them? And yes, that includes the Christian cult!
@@Ex_christian: Jainism also claims ancient humans having thousands of years of lifespan. Look up Lord Rushabh in Jainism. Ancient humans were allocated more numbers of breaths and their breathing rate was much lower than today. Low breathing rate means low Oxygen consumption. The reason we age is because of Oxygen. The lung system is only designed to tolerate limited amount Oxygen before it leads to oxidative stress. Look at tortoise for example; they have a longer lifespan than humans because their breathing rate is lower.
So in short, it's all a bunch of hilarious fiction edited and manipulated over the years to support various people's religious aims. But in many other videos, this guy presents "information" about Jesus. Why does he discount all the crazy claims about people living hundreds or even thousands of years, but still claims the outrageous stories of miracles etc. are true?
"TRUTH IS STRANGER THAN FICTION", my friends...
peace and love,
yishmirai
...And where was the "Dread Pirate Roberts." during all of this? He should have been there.
Clearly he was robbed.
I thought it had to do with people back then mostly using a different counting system as opposed to our base 10 system we use today. Guess I was wrong.
Is there any historical basis for the calendars or how seasons were counted at the time of the Enoch, Noah and others? Like how do we know what these years/numbers are supposed to be? Did they use a similar 365 day calendar with similar seasons?
Even if it was 'mythical' or was made up the dates would have some meaning/context behind them I suppose.
It is fairly easy to divide the "year" into smaller chunks, with days, lunar months, and multiples of days (e.g. weeks) or months. It is probable the ancient Hebrews used lunar months with leap months being thrown in every so often to ensure important festivals didn't drift too far equinoxes/solstices.
But as for any antediluvian counting, about the only thing that can be attributed to is oral tradition
I thought the same. Maybe they didn't use 365 days to equal a year. Maybe their months weren't 12 months.
It’s quite possible that using a number like ‘900 years’ was just a way these tribal, non literate people said that a person lived a long time (and possibly an indication they lived a long time ago) and it wasn’t supposed to be literal.
Its fiction. Really. Jews wrote fictions about their origins. God made penises with foreskins and then wanted them cut off? And if a baby did not have it cut off at 8 days, it was outcast. lol. seriously this desert tribe's god is a monster.
Sure. Like in every day use we use terms like "millions" to mean "lots" and in context, no one expects that we necessarily mean some multiple of ten to the sixth power.
Well i know Phil Colins is getting on a bit, but not 900
Ever try doing maths using Roman numerals ? Harder was their colanders , try finding the square root of XIIIVXCII multiplied by the fraction XXVCIII/VXBCXXX and round it off to the XVIIICVXXII number. Go on, I’ll wait
I read (only one instance) that they were measuring their age by moons, (months). Divide 900 by twelve and see what ya get.
While intriguing, Enoch had Methuselah at 65-so he had sex at 4?
@@AurorXZ More likely they were both just made up.
@@MrWeezer55 Yes (that was Dan's point) but I'm speaking about the idea that the numbers were meant to be divided by 12. Do you think the writers intended Enoch to have sex when he was 4?
@@AurorXZ I think the writers just assumed everyone would blindly believe what they are told.
Dividing by 12 makes more believable numbers. It is possible there were some kind of misinterpretation in the chain of orally transmitted stories. About Enoch's problem, it's easy to solve: the age was given in years well after the error was made and people just accepted the outrageous life spans.
People lived longer because the full affect of sin on the creation was gradual.
Hi, could you please provide a verse or chapter in the Bible that discusses this?
I just assume it is because the AI 🤖 writing ✍ it considers that normal and they had no reason to censor it out in editing.
It's certainly probable that people didnt live 20,000 years. Especially when writing about past kings It's nice to make them live longer so your reign has more legitimacy. Between mistranslation, cultural misunderstandings, different calendars, and humans being known proficient liars... you probably shouldnt believe many of those ages.
Or just pray and ask god and let me know what he says 😂
That's an easy question. Once Adam and Eve sinned, mortality took effect but it took a while to have it's full effect on people. Over time, that's why lifespans declined.
I am not convinced. I mean, I get the argument about the Bible editors fiddling with ages and genealogies but still they were working with a lot older material and they elaborated on that. It doesn’t explain why originally people started using those excessively long ages. Saying “they just made them up” sounds deeply unsatisfactory.
Well it’s not as basic as you’ve framed it, the sliding of positions and rebuilding of lineage means certain people had to be a certain age. It might not be satisfactory but that’s the bible for you🤷♂️
I think it's more like they had rough memories of the genealogies and legends regarding how old things were, and then later had to come up with a way to make the genealogy fit. So they didn't just arbitrarily decide to make someone a certain age, but rather had a timeline they had to fit the genealogies into.
That is essentially a question that needs to be asked first about the Sumerian king lists.
Well, the basic argument, when it comes to nonsensical things like this or the various contradictions in The Bible, is that everything must be true (literally) in The Bible, or nothing in The Bible can be depended upon. Well, all I know is, when I want information that is 100 percent accurate, I go to scriptures written by extremely primitive men ( NOT God) who had NO scientific knowledge whatsoever, put their own opinions and prejudices in their writings, and based a good deal of what they wrote on the myths and traditions of other civilizations. The Bible is not "infallible" or "inerrant" because The Bible is NOT God (because ONLY God is infallible and inerrant).
Love your videos!...note that you are confusing "lineage" with "linage"...your intent is the word lin-nee-age
No, his intent is as he says it is. You are being an accent snob.
Holy shit Dan!
Doing the math, though, in the version that makes it into our modern Bibles, Methuselah's age still lines up with the year of the flood. Though his son / Noah's father Lamech still dies several years prior.