@@langreeves6419They don’t want people to change or increase their understanding, they just want to keep them in line. As far as convincing people that “Jesus loves you”, 1) it’s not hard to convince people that they are special and better than others outside their identity group. 2) the fear mongering reinforces why you need to march in lockstep and not lose the favor of Jesus. Dan misses the point of fear mongering in this video. I do not dispute anything else he says.
@MarcosElMalo2 wow, you need to try a different church! All the churches I've been with do not teach such nonsense I grew up Baptist. They were so emphatic that God saved us through grace and there's nothing we can do to earn or keep salvation. "Once saved, always saved". Fear of punishment just wasn't a thing. Most churches I've been with would teach that lawbreaking causes problems, but not thru divine punishment. Stealing, hitting, murdering...these things cause their own consequences without God having to "smite." Guilt was used as motivation, not fear. The teaching was "after all that God has done for us, we should be grateful" Also a big teaching was that God loves those outside the church Just as much those inside the church. The teaching wasn't God loves US, but God loved EVERYONE. And we cannot do anything to lose the favor of Jesus. Unfortunately the Baptists also have some teachings I don't agree with, so I'm no longer affiliated with them. But their focus on God's love and forgiveness for all I have kept.
"For God so loved the world" that He first condemned everyone in it to Hell then sent is Only Begotten Son to one tiny place on earth to die in torment to redeem everyone who believes in Him. Of course, most of the world's population wouldn't hear the message for centuries, so... Yeah, no, I'm good.
I dunno. Dante's Hell has nine circles with different punishments of varying severity for different sins. Fundagelical Hell is just a one-size-fits-all flambé.
Reading it again as an adult and a non Christian that really stuck out to me. Especially the fact Jesus is the one killing everyone in revelation and Satan is a bit player in the whole thing. Satan gets allowed to do some stuff by Jesus, tossed in naughty jail for 1000 years and then.. released on good behavior I guess?
Revelation's "revenge fantasies" are as just that, fantasies of how some like to think, not what God will do. Their net result is "people did not repent" and therefore futile. God's way is instead to "slay with the sword of his mouth", win people over with the gospel, not wrath. Those in the lake of fire are still around outside the city in the next vision where the gates are permanently open. Inside there is healing for the nations.
"It's a rhetorical whip we use on the backs on people to get them to behave in certain ways we want them to behave"... Exactly what people don't seem to get
And based on what dan said the concept of hell was never developed for that purpose Hardly anybody seems to get that People are so stupid they think hell was come up with just to make people behave a certain way When actually the Jews were so oppressed, they were just trying to figure out. Is there going to be a happy life after we die and will the people causing us pain be punished 1 day?
@@langreeves6419 Nothing more, you're right, and I'm adding a clarification. Some readers might misinterpret what you wrote by conflating it with popular modern notions of afterlife.
Thanks Dan. A few years after deconstructing evangelical beliefs, I was invited back to church by a friend. The Pastor said he felt compelled to preach on hell. I stayed as long as I could, but knowledge is power. It's control BS that toxic people and organizations use. Glad that "biblical" Christianity is in my rear view mirror.
@GraceIssufficient-uf3ng IF Jesus even existed (as a human apocalyptic preacher) we don't really know what he said about "hell" since Christianity didn't even exist until after Jesus was crucified. In other words, Jesus had no input into the religion named after him. We can't really call him a liar if we don't know what he said, or maybe he actually believed in/preached about hell but not likely since hell as we envision it wasn't a big part of early Christianity, and certainly not in Judaism, and Jesus was a Jew his entire life.
@GraceIssufficient-uf3ng That Holy Spirit really does a lot of the "heavy lifting" behind the scenes and doesn't get nearly enough credit for it IMHO. 🤔 So Jesus inspired the writers of the NT from his spiritual realm to make sure it said exactly what he wanted? For example Matthew 27 verses 50-53 when all the tombs burst open and departed saints go out among the people of Jerusalem? Weird only one of the four gospels mentions it and there are ZERO "outside the Bible" accounts of it. I guess zombie uprisings were a common occurrence back in the day. Let me guess - the Holy Spirit gives "real Christians" the gift of discernment to realize that the dead saints claim was never meant to be taken literally? Anyway I have my own crazy theory: how about if Jesus even existed he was just a human being, and in reality after he was crucified he had no input into what people said or wrote about him? Just my 2 cents.
I've "deconstructed" but I'm still a Christian. I just don't believe the scary fundamentalist stuff that so many of us were taught was Christianity. THOSE CONTROL ISSUES ARE NOT CHRISTIANITY. Read some of the more progressive Christian authors. We need to understand the Bible as the original authors would have understood it. AND NO, we shouldn't read it like a newspaper or a scientific paper! It is a beautiful literary document, but you must learn to read it as the original readers (and those who wrote the words) understood it.
"Fearmongering" was an effective way to convince me that either God was a sadistic SOB that I wanted no part of or what they were telling me about God was BS.
@@DoloresLehmann I drifted to "agnostic" and stayed there, likely because it is the WEAKEST belief one could hold. I fantasize that if I meet God in the Afterlife, I hope to be ready to deliver a detailed critique on Creation, after which He tosses me a universe and says, "Okay. Now you be God!" (This idea comes from Futurama's "Godfellas," which is an adaptation of "Microcosmic God.") But I think God is more like the God of Job, who does things for His Own reasons and doesn't really think about us at all. Which is to say, His existence matters not to us.
😂😂 As a young kid I was into science and the concept of eternal anything made no sense to me. I always thought, 1. Everything adapts to its environment given enough time. And eternity is certainly long enough. 2. How can heaven be eternal happiness for everyone? This assumes we either all want to do the same thing or that we will have no free will. And since most Christians assert that we indeed do have free will. Would it not be eternal punishment to take that away. 3. If there was a rebellion in heaven before, what guarantee is there that there would never be another. Again, eternity is a long time. 4. What happens to people who's joy in life was to be with their loved ones. If their loved ones ended up in hell, how could they find happiness in heaven. 5. How was a place that only plays choir music to one person for all eternity a happy place? And this is how I started to learn about the "Rhetorical whip"
Mickey: Aren't you afraid of dying? Mickey's Father: Why should I be afraid? Mickey: Cause you won't exist! Mickey's Father: So? Mickey: That thought doesn't terrify you? Mickey's Father: Who talks about such nonsense? Now, I'm alive. When I'm dead, I'll be dead. Mickey: I don't understand. Aren't you frightened? Mickey's Father: Of what? I'll be unconscious. Mickey: I know, but, never to exist again? Mickey's Father: How do you know? Mickey: Well, it certainly doesn't look promising. Mickey's Father: Who knows what'll be. I'll either be unconscious or I won't. If not, I'll deal with it then. I'm not gonna worry now. - _Hannah and Her Sisters_
You'd think the Bible would spend some time explaining how a benevolent God would create a Universe in which so many people end up in eternal torment...if the concept of Hell had existed at the time
I can't find infinite torment in the Bible. Mat 25.46 in Greek says "chastisement of the age" which actually supports universal reconciliation. It's because it was translated as eternal torment into Latin that the Roman church - which ended up the most influential - imposed it on everyone else. Even in Revelation, "smoke" is said to be long-lasting but not torment itself.
@@MusicalRaichu Matthew 25:31-46 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into **eternal punishment,** but the righteous into eternal life.”
@@epicofgilgamesh9964 The original Greek says "chastisement of the age". For the first half a millennium the predominant view was universal reconciliation where punishment was reformative. Compare Jesus's explanation of fire in Mat 13 as "furnace", fire put to constructive use. The phrase "chastisement of the age" was poorly translated into Latin as "eternal punishment". Because the Roman church had the most influence, that idea became dominant. It was developed in the middle ages into the mythology we have today. The protestant reformers' legal background led them to misunderstand the gospel consistent with a need for "punishment" so they retained that idea even while revising others. Modern English versions will say what fits their theology or what potential customers want it to say, not what the original Greek says. This is true for other passages too.
@@j.matthewgregg lol God is willing to save the unbeliever because Jesus paid the sin debt. A person who rejects Jesus rejects the free gift of salvation. Jesus is not married to the unbeliever. The unbeliever must stand on his own works to not go to hell. The believer gets benefits of the cross work of Christ added freely to his account.
@@j.matthewgregg unbeliever right here judged by his works Revelation 20:12 KJV And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
I began to ponder why this confusion has persisted for so long within Christianity when IMO the plain reading of the text reveals contradictions that ought to lead to corrections, and then I remembered this thing called cognitive bias. I suspect it would be easier to list the cognitive biases that don't lead to this kind of mistake than the ones that do.
Me too used to live in constant fear when i was an evangelical. Even tho i had the hope ("knowing") of salvation through Christ i was also in constant fear of ever messing it up. I was thought that Satan was like a hungry lion constantly walking around me waiting for me to misstep
Just leaving a comment for the algorithm. Thank you so much, Dan, for this video. Hell anxiety has been so hard for me in my deconstruction journey. I can't tell you how much your content has helped me. So many people "in the trenches" need to hear this!
@gaynchor No I don't think you're misunderstanding. I think the bigger picture is that the Bible doesn't agree with itself on the topic of hell, and people in church leadership will pick the readings that support their end-goals, and minimize the texts that speak to the contrary. There's a good case that can be made for early universalism, but I'm not strong enough on that knowledge to make it. Dr. Roberto J. De La Noval has written a book on it, though, I believe.
What is interesting to me is that Paul's concept of salvation is not specifically s salvation from Hell. The idea of being saved from hell doesnt seem to be particularly important to the theology of most authors in the Bible
Exactly. Hell avoidance is not the purpose of Judaism or Christianity. For Christians, the purpose of the faith is to bring the kingdom of God to earth "as it is in heaven." Jesus lays out how to do this in his words and actions. The foundation is love.
Excellent analysis to counter the horribly used and abused concept of hell. One point perhaps worthy of more discussion is why so many in the early church did not want to include the Apocalypse of John/Revelation in the canon. You indicate it was due to revulsion about the 'revenge fantasy', which would be a good reason to reject it. however, Bart Ehrmann indicates it was for another reason. He has stated that the early church fathers were offended by the message at the end of the book that the rich, oppressive Romans would be cast aside and that the ultimately triumphant Christians would replace them at the top of the food chain and enjoy the riches which their oppressors were forced t leave behind. This vision of Christians 'living it up' after their victory was not in keeping with the message of non-worldliness being taught by the church fathers. Therefore, they opposed the inclusion of Revelation in the canon.
I was raised with this fearmongering, and honestly hearing someone like Dan break things down and explain historical context has been a source of comfort and relief.
Brilliant as always. Even shared this to FB. There should be a PAC or something to get this info info PSAs to the public. Especially the notion of the 4th century addition of Revelations which is the prime source of most cringey, crazy Christians today.
...So it's going to be a bottomless pit _and_ a lake of fire? Is the lake of fire _in_ the bottomless pit? Where in the bottomless pit? Presumably not at the bottom so...
@@MusicalRaichu No, the idea of a "bottomless pit" is one that is well-established in English and it doesn't match what you just said - most English-speakers would just call what you just said a "very deep pit" or "a pit of indeterminate depth" or "a pit where you can't see the bottom". The fact that you're objecting to "native English speakers", when _discussing what someone who is a native English speaker is trying to say_ is absurd. Additionally, she is taking it literally because she's lifting it directly from the text and assuming it to be true on its face. Thirdly, under the premises she is assuming it to be true, God has said that the pit is bottomless, and her conception of God is that he is all-powerful so he can genuinely create an infinitely deep pit according to her conception of the universe. Ergo, _she very clearly means it is an infinitely deep pit_ irrespective of what the text says in the original Greek, and so my pointing out that her own claimed descriptions are incompatible is valid. Try to keep up. Oh and finally, since you clearly want to validate what she's saying and yet simultaneously not agree with what she means by it... and I really can't stress this enough... *_if there's a lake of fire at the bottom of the pit, then you can perceive the bottom!_* So your objection to my critique is equally as nonsensical as what she's trying to claim.
Why I'm not a Christian or Muslim. One of the major reasons is the concept of hell and adherence to this idea. Terrorizing people by brandishing inhumane punishment shows an abysmal disregard for the dignity and respect of the person. The most serious is when it is inflicted on children. It’s children abuse! I consider myself lucky to live in a secular society and to be born into an apatheist family.
@@christalimerick I'm old enough to remember considering joining a religion. I rejected this because ample data shows me that all religions are man-made. Even the concept of religion is a human creation (conceived around the 16th century). When you say the biblical truth, I hear it and I understand it as a literary truth, I might as well talk about the “truth of Boccaccio’s Decameron”. So why join this religion over that religion? I don't believe in the existence of supernatural entities.Believe in what you want as long as it harms neither yourself nor others.
Excellent 😌 I've come to the realization that with all the proof and truth of the fact that there's no such place as hell, people will still hold on to the concept of it just to keep themselves on the so called right path. They feel that without a punishment, they're incapable of doing what's right.
I appreciate these videos so much. I just wish back when I was a young kids furiously "studying" the bible that I have had this resource to contextualize what was really being said in these books and not just regurgitating the dogma that I was getting force fed
The idea that religion in general can be described as philosophy with or else at the end of every thought, seems to escape a lot of people. These do tend to be the ones most likely to use thier religion as justification for behavior that would be unacceptable otherwise.
I was fear mongered for months by a coworker and when I started to let it get in my head he told me about Jesus and it wasn't too long after that I was attending his church, got baptized and 7 years of ministry and 10 years of deconstructing, I'm back to being an atheist 😂
I can see the lake of fire as a metaphor for total destruction. Even trash, remnants of things that we would consider destroyed already, is burned to destroy it "completely". Also destruction still counts as an eternal punishment, as long as the destroyed thing is gone forever
Fire can be used to inflict pain, to destroy, or to refine. It can be interpreted any way you like. The term translated "eternal" is aeonian, meaning pertaining to an age. It only means infinite duration if what it is applied to is already known to be of infinite duration. Destruction is not of infinite duration, so it would just mean "destroyed in the age [to come]". Although, it might mean "ruined in the age to come", that is, refined of all evil to the point where there's not much of the original you left.
Since I visited Israel my religious studies have expanded to include an Eastern religion and Judaism. When I visited Israel I had an energy experience at the site of a small Catholic Church of the Beatitudes. This small park is believed to be the site of the Sermon on the Mount. Small pavers are engraved with each of the Beatitudes. Shortly after I got there as I went around the circle of stones the energy became noticeable and then stronger and stronger. I finally sat on the grass and let the energy flow around me. This type of thing doesn’t happen often. The last time I felt this kind of intensity was when I went to Pearl Harbor and visited the USS Arizona. Such sorrow I experienced that day.
Thanks for just giving me knowledge, brother, and helping me sword sharpen sword good to have someone one spit the facts just want knowledge and understanding and different point of view.
Thank you so much! You forgot to mention that Gehenna (جهنم or גֵּיא בֶּן הִנֹּם in the semitic languages Arabic and Hebrew) was and is a real place in Israel where, historically, children were sacrificed. It was often referred to as a place of gnashing of teeth and “maggots” eating away at the carnage. When Jesus, a Jew, was referring to it, he was talking about a real condemned, cursed place in Israel, as a symbol for those who will be condemned to heed. What happened, at least according to a Time Magazine article, was that this idea of Gehenna was read by the Greeks, and due to lack of knowledge of geography, it was conflated with the mythological netherworld that they understood to be Hades or punishment. The two concepts were accidentally merged.
Years ago when I was a teen, I had to leave the church I attended because after watching a movie the church showed us about what Revelations said about the 2nd coming, I had asked why people that lived 2000 years ago would care about what would happen thousands of years after their death all while Romans were killing them for believing in Christ. Never really fit in a church after that.
I suddenly find myself interested in ANY follow-up to these posts from Dan where the original creator actually reconsiders his/her position and recants, or adjusts, or even decides to become an actual scholar on the subject (do research / think critically / etc). Anyone know of a story?
Willing to bet that this content creator doesn't know a fraction of the facts Dan is providing. And even if she was made aware of them, she probably wouldn't accept them. The Dunning-Kruger effect is strong with this one. Smh...
I think Johnathan Roumie's portrayal of Jesus was the turning point where I "got it." Specifically the scene where the children come to visit him in the forest, and they recite a well known prayer of the time. His tearful reaction did it for me. I saw a Jesus that made me feel really shitty for abandoning him for "greener pastures".
I always find it funny that people like her are so certain about their final resting place. How is she so sure about herself but so easily judges others? And why in the world would you ever be interested in a god that does the things she is saying?
Dan, with such a grounded/realistic/human view of concepts that are in scripture, where do you land on your own testimony. I've seen in some of your content you said you were and active Latter Day Saint. Is that still the case? I'm always intrigued to find where intelligent folks land on the supernatural.
Dan has repeatedly noted that he will not discuss his personal beliefs and/or his scholarly work in connection to those beliefs. The most he's said is that he is LDS, but has made no additional remarks about how he reconciles that with his textual criticism of the biblical texts or the "Mormon scripture" texts. If you check more of his videos, and podcast, you should be able to find him stating such things for himself.
And it does shield him to a degree from the accusations of engaging in apologetics. So the more I think about it the more it makes sense. As LDS myself I just always appreciate the critical eye overlapping with the eye of faith. But if you ever touch something from that perspective I can understand how you lose “objectivity”.
Dan was interviewed and pretty much said Faith is something you believe but hope it will be revealed as truth one day...heavy on paraphrase but I think that is it in a nutshell. He rarely replays on RUclips comments, especially about his personal tradition. That's why I like his content, he represents a scholarly approach without the encumbrance of apologetics. I find it funny he is often accused of being an Atheist.
@@scottmaddow7879 and that makes perfect sense, I appreciate what I’ve seen because of his ability to critically think about things that often times even the faithful, or should I say, especially the faithful, refuse to think critically about.
Notice prostilitizers cannot do a video without emotive music as a crutch & manipulation / gaslighting tool to add drama to the snake oil pitch being made?
In my opinion, the fact that the OT and then Paul in the NT, literally do not mention any place of eternal torment is more than enough for people to re-think or examine why they believe in an eternal torment being taught in the Bible. Cherry picking verses and taking some out of context is of no value to anyone. Great video, thanks!
@@jeremymoffet9034 if you would understand biblical principles you would understand Jesus revealed a lot of what was hidden in the old and gave further revelation when he walked the earth, and gave further revelation from heaven to Paul.
Growing up Jehovah's Witness we were so proud of our soul sleep hell is not hot doctrine. We'd get reminded all the time about how the founder of Watchtower "turned the hose on hell" in the 1800s.
@@spinnwebe_ soul sleep is the idea that there is no separation of soul/spirit from the body at death. You are unconscious, asleep, which is generally how the Bible talks about death. Jesus and Paul talked about death as sleep, and not existing incorporeally in some other existence. You're awoken when your body is recreated in the resurrection. "Hell" is simply the common grave of mankind, which is how the Hebrew Bible portrays it. It's not hot, it's just a state of non existence. Like Dan says it itself gets thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation. The one issue is when King Saul summoned Samuel from death and his spirit showed up. Just reading the text it seems like the writer meant that it was actually Samuels soul, and there's Jesus with the story of Lazarus and Abraham having a conversation in the afterlife, but soul sleepers will say "Samuel" was a demon, and Jesus' story was just a parable.
Exactly. The lake of fire spoken of in revelation 20 refers to the same event described in Mal'achi 4:3 where those attacking the "Holy City" will turn to "ashes" with fire and brimstone from above as described in revelation 14. Also in Mal'achi it says they will be "burned up".
It is that 'revenge fantasy' that seems to be the draw of this Fifth Not So Great Awakening going on now. It isn't piety, it's anguish that fuels this new surge and that anguish is fueling a contemptible fascination with seeing others suffer for their 'sins'.
It’s even more hilarious when they try to reconcile an all loving god, or even just a not evil god, with the concept of eternal punishment for reasonable doubt and the simple crime of betting on the wrong religious belief (note: I include atheism in religious belief because even tho not a religion technically it is a belief on religion)
Hebrews 11:6 says, "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him".
We can only follow Jesus IFwe hate our family and our own life.... So loving, and it doesnt make me wanna follow him no matter what the verse after says.
Revelations is very symbolic. Rather than the place Hades, could Hades be the Greek god of the underworld being thrown in the fire, interpreted by some to mean Satan?
This is a big part of what made me leave the faith, but at the same time I wonder how it is that the early church didn't seem to have a problem with this, contrasting Jesus's high ethical teaching of caring for the least of those and his main commandment to love your neighbor as yourself. A lot of Jesus's parables can sound very universalistic and Pauline doctrine certainly makes it seem like the sacrifice of Jesus was for the whole of humanity, one would think the Omni-god, if so desiring (as it is stated in Christian scriptures), could and would save the creation that it made, especially if creation was actualized by its desire in the first place. I guess a good summary of the point I'm trying to get across is that the ECT understanding of Christianity essentially tells you "I God command you to care for the widow and the orphan. That is until I throw them in hell, and if you don't do that you're going in there with them" and the early church said "yup makes sense to me". This is probably as close to ontological evil and lunacy for me.
I have always wondered what is the difference between eternal life and eternal torment' that is, if I am tormented forever am I not living forever. You cannot form it a dead thing. If any living thing can be tormented then surely those people who have eternal life can wind up getting eternal torment. The first bothered me in John 3:16.
Thanks Dan for calling it out for what it is. You need to be careful about nuances in these texts. "eternal punishment" renders Greek "eonian chastisement", punishment intended to reform, in "the age", presumably the age to come. Similarly, Jesus explained that "fire" refers to a "furnace", exclusively fire for constructive use e.g. to refine. The gospels is silent on what happens to people after they're chastised/refined. Revelation's revenge fantasies can be understood as just that, fantasies of what the readers imagine, not what God will do. Their net result is "people did not repent" and thus futile. God's way is instead to "slay with the sword of his mouth", win people over with the gospel, not wrath. Those in the lake of fire are still around outside the city in the next vision. The city gates always remain open and inside there is "healing for the nations". Paul's view is the clearest. There will be "distress" for those who do wrong, they "will not inherit the kingdom" (Christians included), but at the same time, "one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL", God will reconcile ALL to himself, EVERY tongue will profess Christ as Lord. Paul thought that in spite of "not inheriting the kingdom", somehow everyone will be reconciled to God.
Just Curious. I think I read that even Martin Luther wanted to remove the book of Revelation out of his New Testament translation. As well as Hebrews James Jude, and the Epistles of Peter, where we find more vengeful concepts of God’s wrath in the New Testament. Is that correct or am I out to lunch? Thanks
Hi Dan. Just wanted to clarify something. Here in this video you said that the pit would he the place of “Satan’s imprisonment”. In previous videos ive understood that Satan as a singular person doesn’t exist in the bible. Have I misunderstood the latter?
@@evangelicalsnever-lie9792agreed. Honestly I see little evidence the Bible supports the idea of free will in it's worldview. Yahweh doesn't seem to care and flat out manipulated people (sometimes entire nations)in certain stories to get what he wants.
Let’s not dismiss Athanasius so glibly, m’kay? Dan likes to use terms like ‘machinations’ to give a negative connotation to historical figures he doesn’t like for various reasons. We don’t know exactly why Athanasius and others wanted the inclusion of the Revelation of St John; but we DO know it was read and used in many Christian communities, which is why it was up for inclusion in the canon.
@@MrDalisclockit’s not just the Bible that sketches ‘free will’ as a boondoggle. Please see modern psychologists, psychiatrists, and quantum physicists. They’re all on RUclips viz. the nonexistence of ‘free’ {sic} will.
Yes, it's not plural. Seems rather pedantic however, as there is no confusion what the person who says the thing that everyone now knows bugs you, is referring to. "Revaltions" 😀
@@evangelicalsnever-lie9792 Did people already say "Revelations" before the Matrix movie? Or is it a residue from the movie title? I don't know, since in German, it's called "Offenbarung". Always singular.
This may be a bit off topic, but I’m curious, back in the time of the early church there were 6 main churches. 4 of which were universalist. What was the biblical canon, if any, at the time? Just wondering cause you said that at first, most did not want revelation to make it into the canon. I’m also wondering if what made it into the canon leaned more toward universalism than what we have today.
"Fearmongering is not an effective way to convince people that Jesus loves you, it's just fearmongering". Very well said, Dr. Dan.
It is very effective in controlling people however.
@@alanb8884It's the weakest way to control people
It doesn't encourage anyone to actually change
It just encourages you to try to avoid punishment
@@langreeves6419They don’t want people to change or increase their understanding, they just want to keep them in line.
As far as convincing people that “Jesus loves you”, 1) it’s not hard to convince people that they are special and better than others outside their identity group. 2) the fear mongering reinforces why you need to march in lockstep and not lose the favor of Jesus.
Dan misses the point of fear mongering in this video. I do not dispute anything else he says.
@MarcosElMalo2 wow, you need to try a different church!
All the churches I've been with do not teach such nonsense
I grew up Baptist. They were so emphatic that God saved us through grace and there's nothing we can do to earn or keep salvation. "Once saved, always saved". Fear of punishment just wasn't a thing. Most churches I've been with would teach that lawbreaking causes problems, but not thru divine punishment. Stealing, hitting, murdering...these things cause their own consequences without God having to "smite."
Guilt was used as motivation, not fear. The teaching was "after all that God has done for us, we should be grateful"
Also a big teaching was that God loves those outside the church Just as much those inside the church.
The teaching wasn't God loves US, but God loved EVERYONE. And we cannot do anything to lose the favor of Jesus.
Unfortunately the Baptists also have some teachings I don't agree with, so I'm no longer affiliated with them.
But their focus on God's love and forgiveness for all I have kept.
"For God so loved the world" that He first condemned everyone in it to Hell then sent is Only Begotten Son to one tiny place on earth to die in torment to redeem everyone who believes in Him. Of course, most of the world's population wouldn't hear the message for centuries, so... Yeah, no, I'm good.
It's so funny to me that Dante's Inferno was basically fan fiction but has come to completely dominate the Christian concept of the afterlife.
I met Virgil in Hell and he thought I was cool and we totally hung out together...
Scathing political fanfiction directed at the Greek senate for being a bunch of creepy hypocrites.
I dunno. Dante's Hell has nine circles with different punishments of varying severity for different sins. Fundagelical Hell is just a one-size-fits-all flambé.
@@Duragizer8775 I never claimed they actually read it. Much like the Bible, they just use a mishmash of the highlights.
@@jamesjarvis3486 If it's unbearably hot and you meet someone cool, it can only help, right?
One scholar described Revelations as “1st century revenge porn.”
The Apocalypse of Peter definitely is 😅
Reading it again as an adult and a non Christian that really stuck out to me.
Especially the fact Jesus is the one killing everyone in revelation and Satan is a bit player in the whole thing. Satan gets allowed to do some stuff by Jesus, tossed in naughty jail for 1000 years and then.. released on good behavior I guess?
@@eilyschneider5370 *Dante is NOT copying ideas from the apocalypse of Peter. Why would you suggest such a thing?* /S
Revelation's "revenge fantasies" are as just that, fantasies of how some like to think, not what God will do. Their net result is "people did not repent" and therefore futile. God's way is instead to "slay with the sword of his mouth", win people over with the gospel, not wrath. Those in the lake of fire are still around outside the city in the next vision where the gates are permanently open. Inside there is healing for the nations.
Julia Sweeney calls Revelation "the Bible on acid."
"It's a rhetorical whip we use on the backs on people to get them to behave in certain ways we want them to behave"...
Exactly what people don't seem to get
And based on what dan said the concept of hell was never developed for that purpose
Hardly anybody seems to get that
People are so stupid they think hell was come up with just to make people behave a certain way
When actually the Jews were so oppressed, they were just trying to figure out. Is there going to be a happy life after we die and will the people causing us pain be punished 1 day?
@@langreeves6419 By "after we die" they meant they will come back to life when the Messiah comes and puts things right.
@@MusicalRaichu yes..
And...
The point is...
Did you have one? Is there more to your statement that got cut off?
@@langreeves6419 Nothing more, you're right, and I'm adding a clarification. Some readers might misinterpret what you wrote by conflating it with popular modern notions of afterlife.
@@MusicalRaichu the greeks...
Again
"I take no pleasure in discussing this"
Then why are you smiling so much? Thanks, Dan, for pointing out all the nonsense out there.
Oh they take fantasy pleasure thinking about how all those "who don't agree with me are gonna get it!"
I have never seen a Christian happier then when they are talking about how saved they are and how dammed you are and going to hell.
Some people are nervous smilers but I do not think that is this case.
😂
@@evangelicalsnever-lie9792 honestly I think it’s just that she feels so blessed with the power of Jesus. Which frankly I find a lot creepier
I've heard that the roads to hell are paved with good intentions.
At least we know that hell has paved roads.
😂
@@BluebagginsNo doubt, yet Rome's roads were cobbled together, at best, compared to Hell's super duper asphalt and brimstone. :~)
I've heard their central heating system is pretty efficient too, a lot better than Helheims.
One of the many good things the Romans have done for us
Well, at least the roads TO hell are paved. Once you get there, the pot holes are a doozy. Some are bottomless pits. Some are big as lakes.
Thanks Dan. A few years after deconstructing evangelical beliefs, I was invited back to church by a friend. The Pastor said he felt compelled to preach on hell. I stayed as long as I could, but knowledge is power. It's control BS that toxic people and organizations use. Glad that "biblical" Christianity is in my rear view mirror.
@GraceIssufficient-uf3ng Did you not watch the video? It has nothing to do with Jesus lying about anything.
@GraceIssufficient-uf3ng IF Jesus even existed (as a human apocalyptic preacher) we don't really know what he said about "hell" since Christianity didn't even exist until after Jesus was crucified. In other words, Jesus had no input into the religion named after him. We can't really call him a liar if we don't know what he said, or maybe he actually believed in/preached about hell but not likely since hell as we envision it wasn't a big part of early Christianity, and certainly not in Judaism, and Jesus was a Jew his entire life.
@GraceIssufficient-uf3ng That Holy Spirit really does a lot of the "heavy lifting" behind the scenes and doesn't get nearly enough credit for it IMHO. 🤔 So Jesus inspired the writers of the NT from his spiritual realm to make sure it said exactly what he wanted?
For example Matthew 27 verses 50-53 when all the tombs burst open and departed saints go out among the people of Jerusalem?
Weird only one of the four gospels mentions it and there are ZERO "outside the Bible" accounts of it. I guess zombie uprisings were a common occurrence back in the day. Let me guess - the Holy Spirit gives "real Christians" the gift of discernment to realize that the dead saints claim was never meant to be taken literally? Anyway I have my own crazy theory: how about if Jesus even existed he was just a human being, and in reality after he was crucified he had no input into what people said or wrote about him? Just my 2 cents.
I've "deconstructed" but I'm still a Christian. I just don't believe the scary fundamentalist stuff that so many of us were taught was Christianity. THOSE CONTROL ISSUES ARE NOT CHRISTIANITY. Read some of the more progressive Christian authors. We need to understand the Bible as the original authors would have understood it. AND NO, we shouldn't read it like a newspaper or a scientific paper! It is a beautiful literary document, but you must learn to read it as the original readers (and those who wrote the words) understood it.
Glad you managed to escape. Our numbers are growing.
"Fearmongering" was an effective way to convince me that either God was a sadistic SOB that I wanted no part of or what they were telling me about God was BS.
And at what conclusion did you arrive at?
@@DoloresLehmann I drifted to "agnostic" and stayed there, likely because it is the WEAKEST belief one could hold.
I fantasize that if I meet God in the Afterlife, I hope to be ready to deliver a detailed critique on Creation, after which He tosses me a universe and says, "Okay. Now you be God!" (This idea comes from Futurama's "Godfellas," which is an adaptation of "Microcosmic God.")
But I think God is more like the God of Job, who does things for His Own reasons and doesn't really think about us at all. Which is to say, His existence matters not to us.
@@icollectstories5702 Very interesting point of view! Thanks!
It makes me sad, seeing these kids so confident and earnest about things created to make them controlled and fearful
Child tells parents "I don't believe you're my real parents!" Parents set Child on fire
and then tell the. burning child that they made the choice to be burned. And that they love the child very much too.
😂😂😂@@МыколаНетребко
Hell is queuing up a Dan McClellan video and then losing your Internet connection.
No, I think your referring to "limbo".
@@Alex_MitchellThere ain’t no more limbo… hehehe
Wow, this was just 8 mins long and is absolutely packed with info and context
Info of what? Dudes a Mormon who believes each one will get their own planet😂
Even as a Christian, I genuinely love this content. Thanks Dan!
I'm saying this in love fellow Christian, you should not love content that is "antichrist "!
@@jacobmetts2668Dan is a Christian, and adheres much closer to Jesus' teaching than whatever trash you believe
@@jacobmetts2668What are you talking about? He literally just gives info on the bible. Are you on drugs or something?
@@jacobmetts2668 You approve instead of ignorant people who distort what the bible to advance an agenda?
@@jacobmetts2668 🤣
I've been trying to tell ppl for years, I don't fear burning for eternity without a nervous system and brain activity.
😂😂
As a young kid I was into science and the concept of eternal anything made no sense to me.
I always thought,
1. Everything adapts to its environment given enough time. And eternity is certainly long enough.
2. How can heaven be eternal happiness for everyone? This assumes we either all want to do the same thing or that we will have no free will. And since most Christians assert that we indeed do have free will. Would it not be eternal punishment to take that away.
3. If there was a rebellion in heaven before, what guarantee is there that there would never be another. Again, eternity is a long time.
4. What happens to people who's joy in life was to be with their loved ones.
If their loved ones ended up in hell, how could they find happiness in heaven.
5. How was a place that only plays choir music to one person for all eternity a happy place?
And this is how I started to learn about the "Rhetorical whip"
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Mickey: Aren't you afraid of dying?
Mickey's Father: Why should I be afraid?
Mickey: Cause you won't exist!
Mickey's Father: So?
Mickey: That thought doesn't terrify you?
Mickey's Father: Who talks about such nonsense? Now, I'm alive. When I'm dead, I'll be dead.
Mickey: I don't understand. Aren't you frightened?
Mickey's Father: Of what? I'll be unconscious.
Mickey: I know, but, never to exist again?
Mickey's Father: How do you know?
Mickey: Well, it certainly doesn't look promising.
Mickey's Father: Who knows what'll be. I'll either be unconscious or I won't. If not, I'll deal with it then. I'm not gonna worry now.
- _Hannah and Her Sisters_
@@xenicmark You have just accidentally discovered the Latter-day Saint understanding of the afterlife which solves all of those problems.
Jesus said that God can send you "body and soul" into Gehenna. So whatever it's supposed to be, you will have a nervous system.
You'd think the Bible would spend some time explaining how a benevolent God would create a Universe in which so many people end up in eternal torment...if the concept of Hell had existed at the time
I can't find infinite torment in the Bible. Mat 25.46 in Greek says "chastisement of the age" which actually supports universal reconciliation. It's because it was translated as eternal torment into Latin that the Roman church - which ended up the most influential - imposed it on everyone else. Even in Revelation, "smoke" is said to be long-lasting but not torment itself.
That's actually a good observation.
I might add that the Bible is not a living thinking entity that "spends time" or "explains how".
@@MusicalRaichu
Matthew 25:31-46
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into **eternal punishment,** but the righteous into eternal life.”
@@epicofgilgamesh9964 The original Greek says "chastisement of the age". For the first half a millennium the predominant view was universal reconciliation where punishment was reformative. Compare Jesus's explanation of fire in Mat 13 as "furnace", fire put to constructive use.
The phrase "chastisement of the age" was poorly translated into Latin as "eternal punishment". Because the Roman church had the most influence, that idea became dominant. It was developed in the middle ages into the mythology we have today.
The protestant reformers' legal background led them to misunderstand the gospel consistent with a need for "punishment" so they retained that idea even while revising others.
Modern English versions will say what fits their theology or what potential customers want it to say, not what the original Greek says. This is true for other passages too.
If your husband/wife/partner told you they love you unconditionally but then tortured you for not returning their love - would that make ANY sense?
@@j.matthewgregg lol God is willing to save the unbeliever because Jesus paid the sin debt. A person who rejects Jesus rejects the free gift of salvation. Jesus is not married to the unbeliever. The unbeliever must stand on his own works to not go to hell. The believer gets benefits of the cross work of Christ added freely to his account.
@@j.matthewgregg unbeliever right here judged by his works
Revelation 20:12 KJV
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
I began to ponder why this confusion has persisted for so long within Christianity when IMO the plain reading of the text reveals contradictions that ought to lead to corrections, and then I remembered this thing called cognitive bias. I suspect it would be easier to list the cognitive biases that don't lead to this kind of mistake than the ones that do.
"Sola scriptura" my *ss. Give 'em Hell, Dan.
So good, Dan. Absolutely “hell” is a fear tactic for manipulation within religion.
I love how she is talking about eternal torment with a pink mic and a pink background 😂
My vision of Hell.
pure camp
Is that a mike, or a hair dryer?
And what about the flowers behind and the chill music?
@@mystique-1337 it reminds me of when Frieza was sent to hell in DB😭🤣
Me too used to live in constant fear when i was an evangelical. Even tho i had the hope ("knowing") of salvation through Christ i was also in constant fear of ever messing it up. I was thought that Satan was like a hungry lion constantly walking around me waiting for me to misstep
#2 Hell is a lake of fire
#4 Hell is a bottomless pit
ME: *confused Jackie Chan face*
Can God make a pit so bottomless that He can’t fill it with fire?
@@spinnwebe_- can God microwave a burrito so hot even he can't eat it?
@@emptyhand777 AAAAH WHERE WAS THIS FROM?
@@ZootOfficial - I heard Matt Dillahunty say it once a long time ago.
@@emptyhand777 I searched it up and its a line that Homer says in the simpsons.
I would happily listen to more theological scholars like Dan.
“Revenge fantasy” perfectly sums up the concept of Hell. 👏
Just leaving a comment for the algorithm. Thank you so much, Dan, for this video. Hell anxiety has been so hard for me in my deconstruction journey. I can't tell you how much your content has helped me. So many people "in the trenches" need to hear this!
I hope this video gets a wide circulation. He packs much content into a brief space. I too want to help the algorithm.
Does it really help? Bc it makes me scared bc he says the bible teaches the eternal torment. Or am I misunderstanding?
@gaynchor No I don't think you're misunderstanding. I think the bigger picture is that the Bible doesn't agree with itself on the topic of hell, and people in church leadership will pick the readings that support their end-goals, and minimize the texts that speak to the contrary. There's a good case that can be made for early universalism, but I'm not strong enough on that knowledge to make it. Dr. Roberto J. De La Noval has written a book on it, though, I believe.
What is interesting to me is that Paul's concept of salvation is not specifically s salvation from Hell. The idea of being saved from hell doesnt seem to be particularly important to the theology of most authors in the Bible
Exactly. Hell avoidance is not the purpose of Judaism or Christianity. For Christians, the purpose of the faith is to bring the kingdom of God to earth "as it is in heaven." Jesus lays out how to do this in his words and actions. The foundation is love.
Excellent analysis to counter the horribly used and abused concept of hell. One point perhaps worthy of more discussion is why so many in the early church did not want to include the Apocalypse of John/Revelation in the canon. You indicate it was due to revulsion about the 'revenge fantasy', which would be a good reason to reject it. however, Bart Ehrmann indicates it was for another reason. He has stated that the early church fathers were offended by the message at the end of the book that the rich, oppressive Romans would be cast aside and that the ultimately triumphant Christians would replace them at the top of the food chain and enjoy the riches which their oppressors were forced t leave behind. This vision of Christians 'living it up' after their victory was not in keeping with the message of non-worldliness being taught by the church fathers. Therefore, they opposed the inclusion of Revelation in the canon.
I was raised with this fearmongering, and honestly hearing someone like Dan break things down and explain historical context has been a source of comfort and relief.
Brilliant as always. Even shared this to
FB. There should be a PAC or something to get this info info PSAs to the public. Especially the notion of the 4th century addition of Revelations which is the prime source of most cringey, crazy Christians today.
Fantastic sir, thank you so much for your time
Excellent! Thank you. The concept of hell never made any sense to me.
❤❤❤you are awesome Dan!! Fear mongering needs to go. Maybe try love, now that's a thought
...So it's going to be a bottomless pit _and_ a lake of fire? Is the lake of fire _in_ the bottomless pit? Where in the bottomless pit? Presumably not at the bottom so...
No, the lake of fire is filling up the whole bottomless pit from top to bottom... oh, wait.
Metaphorical/metaphysical geography is bizarre.
bottomless just means so deep you can't perceive the bottom. native english speakers take things so literally sometimes ...
@@MusicalRaichu No, the idea of a "bottomless pit" is one that is well-established in English and it doesn't match what you just said - most English-speakers would just call what you just said a "very deep pit" or "a pit of indeterminate depth" or "a pit where you can't see the bottom". The fact that you're objecting to "native English speakers", when _discussing what someone who is a native English speaker is trying to say_ is absurd.
Additionally, she is taking it literally because she's lifting it directly from the text and assuming it to be true on its face.
Thirdly, under the premises she is assuming it to be true, God has said that the pit is bottomless, and her conception of God is that he is all-powerful so he can genuinely create an infinitely deep pit according to her conception of the universe.
Ergo, _she very clearly means it is an infinitely deep pit_ irrespective of what the text says in the original Greek, and so my pointing out that her own claimed descriptions are incompatible is valid. Try to keep up.
Oh and finally, since you clearly want to validate what she's saying and yet simultaneously not agree with what she means by it... and I really can't stress this enough... *_if there's a lake of fire at the bottom of the pit, then you can perceive the bottom!_* So your objection to my critique is equally as nonsensical as what she's trying to claim.
@@MrDalisclock She's being literal too, so... she's just literally bizarre.
Why I'm not a Christian or Muslim. One of the major reasons is the concept of hell and adherence to this idea. Terrorizing people by brandishing inhumane punishment shows an abysmal disregard for the dignity and respect of the person. The most serious is when it is inflicted on children. It’s children abuse! I consider myself lucky to live in a secular society and to be born into an apatheist family.
Consider becoming a christiam again and spreading the real biblical truth about "hell", which is that it's not for humans and not eternal
@@christalimerick I'm old enough to remember considering joining a religion. I rejected this because ample data shows me that all religions are man-made. Even the concept of religion is a human creation (conceived around the 16th century). When you say the biblical truth, I hear it and I understand it as a literary truth, I might as well talk about the “truth of Boccaccio’s Decameron”. So why join this religion over that religion? I don't believe in the existence of supernatural entities.Believe in what you want as long as it harms neither yourself nor others.
It's interesting that The Lamb would casually sit and watch massive suffering of anyone. Ever.
Thank you.
Excellent 😌 I've come to the realization that with all the proof and truth of the fact that there's no such place as hell, people will still hold on to the concept of it just to keep themselves on the so called right path. They feel that without a punishment, they're incapable of doing what's right.
‘Hell is a very real place whether you believe it or not’ and I’m going to prove it’s real by telling you about some obscure passages in the bible.
🔥👀 Now we're so skeered, because we're deeply superstious!
@@Bluebaggins Presuppositional Strawman and Tu Quoque Fallacies are noted, rejected and dismissed.
I so appreciate the brief and concise information, from a scholar, in every video. Very educational, interesting and entertaining. ❤
You’ve been killing the game non stop!!!!! Loving this
"the wine of Gods Wrath!" That would be MG 20/20! (MadGod)
I appreciate these videos so much. I just wish back when I was a young kids furiously "studying" the bible that I have had this resource to contextualize what was really being said in these books and not just regurgitating the dogma that I was getting force fed
The idea that religion in general can be described as philosophy with or else at the end of every thought, seems to escape a lot of people. These do tend to be the ones most likely to use thier religion as justification for behavior that would be unacceptable otherwise.
I was fear mongered for months by a coworker and when I started to let it get in my head he told me about Jesus and it wasn't too long after that I was attending his church, got baptized and 7 years of ministry and 10 years of deconstructing, I'm back to being an atheist 😂
I can see the lake of fire as a metaphor for total destruction. Even trash, remnants of things that we would consider destroyed already, is burned to destroy it "completely".
Also destruction still counts as an eternal punishment, as long as the destroyed thing is gone forever
Fire can be used to inflict pain, to destroy, or to refine. It can be interpreted any way you like.
The term translated "eternal" is aeonian, meaning pertaining to an age. It only means infinite duration if what it is applied to is already known to be of infinite duration.
Destruction is not of infinite duration, so it would just mean "destroyed in the age [to come]". Although, it might mean "ruined in the age to come", that is, refined of all evil to the point where there's not much of the original you left.
Well said!
THANK YOU DAN…..
Since I visited Israel my religious studies have expanded to include an Eastern religion and Judaism.
When I visited Israel I had an energy experience at the site of a small Catholic Church of the Beatitudes. This small park is believed to be the site of the Sermon on the Mount. Small pavers are engraved with each of the Beatitudes.
Shortly after I got there as I went around the circle of stones the energy became noticeable and then stronger and stronger. I finally sat on the grass and let the energy flow around me.
This type of thing doesn’t happen often. The last time I felt this kind of intensity was when I went to Pearl Harbor and visited the USS Arizona. Such sorrow I experienced that day.
Thank you so much.
Jean-Paul Sartre was right.
Hell is other people.
All his friends were French! 😂
@@johnburn8031 😅
Thanks for just giving me knowledge, brother, and helping me sword sharpen sword good to have someone one spit the facts just want knowledge and understanding and different point of view.
Thank you so much! You forgot to mention that Gehenna (جهنم or גֵּיא בֶּן הִנֹּם in the semitic languages Arabic and Hebrew) was and is a real place in Israel where, historically, children were sacrificed. It was often referred to as a place of gnashing of teeth and “maggots” eating away at the carnage. When Jesus, a Jew, was referring to it, he was talking about a real condemned, cursed place in Israel, as a symbol for those who will be condemned to heed. What happened, at least according to a Time Magazine article, was that this idea of Gehenna was read by the Greeks, and due to lack of knowledge of geography, it was conflated with the mythological netherworld that they understood to be Hades or punishment. The two concepts were accidentally merged.
I love this so much
Years ago when I was a teen, I had to leave the church I attended because after watching a movie the church showed us about what Revelations said about the 2nd coming, I had asked why people that lived 2000 years ago would care about what would happen thousands of years after their death all while Romans were killing them for believing in Christ. Never really fit in a church after that.
Awesomeness!
I suddenly find myself interested in ANY follow-up to these posts from Dan where the original creator actually reconsiders his/her position and recants, or adjusts, or even decides to become an actual scholar on the subject (do research / think critically / etc). Anyone know of a story?
Willing to bet that this content creator doesn't know a fraction of the facts Dan is providing. And even if she was made aware of them, she probably wouldn't accept them.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is strong with this one. Smh...
I think Johnathan Roumie's portrayal of Jesus was the turning point where I "got it." Specifically the scene where the children come to visit him in the forest, and they recite a well known prayer of the time. His tearful reaction did it for me. I saw a Jesus that made me feel really shitty for abandoning him for "greener pastures".
I always find it funny that people like her are so certain about their final resting place. How is she so sure about herself but so easily judges others? And why in the world would you ever be interested in a god that does the things she is saying?
Dan, with such a grounded/realistic/human view of concepts that are in scripture, where do you land on your own testimony. I've seen in some of your content you said you were and active Latter Day Saint. Is that still the case? I'm always intrigued to find where intelligent folks land on the supernatural.
Dan has repeatedly noted that he will not discuss his personal beliefs and/or his scholarly work in connection to those beliefs. The most he's said is that he is LDS, but has made no additional remarks about how he reconciles that with his textual criticism of the biblical texts or the "Mormon scripture" texts. If you check more of his videos, and podcast, you should be able to find him stating such things for himself.
That’s totally fair. I just found his stuff recently and hadn’t seen enough to hear that yet. Thanks for the heads up!
And it does shield him to a degree from the accusations of engaging in apologetics. So the more I think about it the more it makes sense.
As LDS myself I just always appreciate the critical eye overlapping with the eye of faith. But if you ever touch something from that perspective I can understand how you lose “objectivity”.
Dan was interviewed and pretty much said Faith is something you believe but hope it will be revealed as truth one day...heavy on paraphrase but I think that is it in a nutshell. He rarely replays on RUclips comments, especially about his personal tradition. That's why I like his content, he represents a scholarly approach without the encumbrance of apologetics. I find it funny he is often accused of being an Atheist.
@@scottmaddow7879 and that makes perfect sense, I appreciate what I’ve seen because of his ability to critically think about things that often times even the faithful, or should I say, especially the faithful, refuse to think critically about.
Dan, keep telling the truth, just like a thermometer. I can adjust to what the thermometer says, instead of claiming it doesn't say that.
Damn. That last line hits hard and we all need to say it louder for the Evangelicals in the back.
Weird coincidence. The Machinations of Athanasius was the name of my death metal band in high school.
Deja vu all over again - it's the name of my hamster! Okay it's actually what the hamster wants me to call it - but still....
Notice prostilitizers cannot do a video without emotive music as a crutch & manipulation / gaslighting tool to add drama to the snake oil pitch being made?
Or shouting. Lots of red-face shouting.
Wow. Might be my favorite Dan video yet.
In my opinion, the fact that the OT and then Paul in the NT, literally do not mention any place of eternal torment is more than enough for people to re-think or examine why they believe in an eternal torment being taught in the Bible. Cherry picking verses and taking some out of context is of no value to anyone. Great video, thanks!
@@jeremymoffet9034 if you would understand biblical principles you would understand Jesus revealed a lot of what was hidden in the old and gave further revelation when he walked the earth, and gave further revelation from heaven to Paul.
thanks Dan
Growing up Jehovah's Witness we were so proud of our soul sleep hell is not hot doctrine. We'd get reminded all the time about how the founder of Watchtower "turned the hose on hell" in the 1800s.
Can you explain “soul sleep hell is not hot doctrine”? Never heard this, curious
@@spinnwebe_ soul sleep is the idea that there is no separation of soul/spirit from the body at death. You are unconscious, asleep, which is generally how the Bible talks about death. Jesus and Paul talked about death as sleep, and not existing incorporeally in some other existence. You're awoken when your body is recreated in the resurrection. "Hell" is simply the common grave of mankind, which is how the Hebrew Bible portrays it. It's not hot, it's just a state of non existence. Like Dan says it itself gets thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation. The one issue is when King Saul summoned Samuel from death and his spirit showed up. Just reading the text it seems like the writer meant that it was actually Samuels soul, and there's Jesus with the story of Lazarus and Abraham having a conversation in the afterlife, but soul sleepers will say "Samuel" was a demon, and Jesus' story was just a parable.
Thank you so much! That was just perfect.
This Christian universalist stands in agreement with Dan Mclellan
Exactly. The lake of fire spoken of in revelation 20 refers to the same event described in Mal'achi 4:3 where those attacking the "Holy City" will turn to "ashes" with fire and brimstone from above as described in revelation 14.
Also in Mal'achi it says they will be "burned up".
"Choose me or I will make you suffer" isn't love. This is coercion, which is ABUSE!
It is that 'revenge fantasy' that seems to be the draw of this Fifth Not So Great Awakening going on now. It isn't piety, it's anguish that fuels this new surge and that anguish is fueling a contemptible fascination with seeing others suffer for their 'sins'.
I thank you for your knowledge.
Nice fit. When I was young, I was small and very thin, I would dream of being The Hulk. lol
It’s even more hilarious when they try to reconcile an all loving god, or even just a not evil god, with the concept of eternal punishment for reasonable doubt and the simple crime of betting on the wrong religious belief (note: I include atheism in religious belief because even tho not a religion technically it is a belief on religion)
Hi, Dr. McClellan. Why don't you do a video on the three concepts of hell?
Hebrews 11:6 says, "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him".
We can only follow Jesus IFwe hate our family and our own life.... So loving, and it doesnt make me wanna follow him no matter what the verse after says.
Short and informative as always
Revelations is very symbolic. Rather than the place Hades, could Hades be the Greek god of the underworld being thrown in the fire, interpreted by some to mean Satan?
This is a big part of what made me leave the faith, but at the same time I wonder how it is that the early church didn't seem to have a problem with this, contrasting Jesus's high ethical teaching of caring for the least of those and his main commandment to love your neighbor as yourself. A lot of Jesus's parables can sound very universalistic and Pauline doctrine certainly makes it seem like the sacrifice of Jesus was for the whole of humanity, one would think the Omni-god, if so desiring (as it is stated in Christian scriptures), could and would save the creation that it made, especially if creation was actualized by its desire in the first place.
I guess a good summary of the point I'm trying to get across is that the ECT understanding of Christianity essentially tells you "I God command you to care for the widow and the orphan. That is until I throw them in hell, and if you don't do that you're going in there with them" and the early church said "yup makes sense to me". This is probably as close to ontological evil and lunacy for me.
The Old Testament consistently teaches the annihilation of the wicked, not eternal conscious torment.
Amazingly put Dan.
Where did the idea of Apocatastasis come from if it does not seem to be in the Gospels?
Acts 3:21
So interesting.
I have always wondered what is the difference between eternal life and eternal torment' that is, if I am tormented forever am I not living forever. You cannot form it a dead thing. If any living thing can be tormented then surely those people who have eternal life can wind up getting eternal torment. The first bothered me in John 3:16.
What is christian love?
Baby don't hurt me
Baby don't hurt me
No more.
no rest, 'day or night'?
Hell, I'm not even there yet, & I'm tired of it already.
PASS! 🙃
Revenge fantasy, smacks of Dante.
Thanks Dan for calling it out for what it is.
You need to be careful about nuances in these texts. "eternal punishment" renders Greek "eonian chastisement", punishment intended to reform, in "the age", presumably the age to come. Similarly, Jesus explained that "fire" refers to a "furnace", exclusively fire for constructive use e.g. to refine. The gospels is silent on what happens to people after they're chastised/refined.
Revelation's revenge fantasies can be understood as just that, fantasies of what the readers imagine, not what God will do. Their net result is "people did not repent" and thus futile. God's way is instead to "slay with the sword of his mouth", win people over with the gospel, not wrath. Those in the lake of fire are still around outside the city in the next vision. The city gates always remain open and inside there is "healing for the nations".
Paul's view is the clearest. There will be "distress" for those who do wrong, they "will not inherit the kingdom" (Christians included), but at the same time, "one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL", God will reconcile ALL to himself, EVERY tongue will profess Christ as Lord. Paul thought that in spite of "not inheriting the kingdom", somehow everyone will be reconciled to God.
Ultimate Reconciliation is what the Bible as a whole teaches.
Is their any place in the bible where God talks about Sheol?
Just Curious. I think I read that even Martin Luther wanted to remove the book of Revelation out of his New Testament translation. As well as Hebrews James Jude, and the Epistles of Peter, where we find more vengeful concepts of God’s wrath in the New Testament. Is that correct or am I out to lunch? Thanks
Hi Dan. Just wanted to clarify something.
Here in this video you said that the pit would he the place of “Satan’s imprisonment”.
In previous videos ive understood that Satan as a singular person doesn’t exist in the bible.
Have I misunderstood the latter?
Satan doesn't exist as an individual in the Hebrew Bible, but they absolutely become a named individual in the New Testament.
@@maklelan ah great! Thank you for clarifying that for me.
“Revelation was included due to the machinations of Athunatius of Alexandria”
That explains why Calvinists love Athunatius
As an atheist, I love Pre-Determination 'Chosen Ones' Calvanists! They are the most hatefully honest! 😀
@@evangelicalsnever-lie9792Ooh! New rabbit-hole to climb down! Thanks!
@@evangelicalsnever-lie9792agreed. Honestly I see little evidence the Bible supports the idea of free will in it's worldview. Yahweh doesn't seem to care and flat out manipulated people (sometimes entire nations)in certain stories to get what he wants.
Let’s not dismiss Athanasius so glibly, m’kay? Dan likes to use terms like ‘machinations’ to give a negative connotation to historical figures he doesn’t like for various reasons. We don’t know exactly why Athanasius and others wanted the inclusion of the Revelation of St John; but we DO know it was read and used in many Christian communities, which is why it was up for inclusion in the canon.
@@MrDalisclockit’s not just the Bible that sketches ‘free will’ as a boondoggle. Please see modern psychologists, psychiatrists, and quantum physicists. They’re all on RUclips viz. the nonexistence of ‘free’ {sic} will.
Where do you buy your tees from?
At some point, we should pull up the old article about how heaven is hotter than hell....
When will people stop saying “Revelations”?
It’s Revelation. There’s no “S”.
Don’t know why it bugs me so much, but it does.
Yes, it's not plural. Seems rather pedantic however, as there is no confusion what the person who says the thing that everyone now knows bugs you, is referring to.
"Revaltions" 😀
@@evangelicalsnever-lie9792 Did people already say "Revelations" before the Matrix movie? Or is it a residue from the movie title? I don't know, since in German, it's called "Offenbarung". Always singular.
Mandela effect
We are talking about the same people who say "Evidences" 🤦🏻♂️
@@johnburn8031 😂 touché
This may be a bit off topic, but I’m curious, back in the time of the early church there were 6 main churches. 4 of which were universalist. What was the biblical canon, if any, at the time? Just wondering cause you said that at first, most did not want revelation to make it into the canon. I’m also wondering if what made it into the canon leaned more toward universalism than what we have today.
the absurd part is when christians say that sinners send themselves to hell when god is supposed to be the ground for everything including hell
Why is Barbie telling me to go to hell?
I though I was Kenough?