@@langreeves6419They don’t want people to change or increase their understanding, they just want to keep them in line. As far as convincing people that “Jesus loves you”, 1) it’s not hard to convince people that they are special and better than others outside their identity group. 2) the fear mongering reinforces why you need to march in lockstep and not lose the favor of Jesus. Dan misses the point of fear mongering in this video. I do not dispute anything else he says.
@MarcosElMalo2 wow, you need to try a different church! All the churches I've been with do not teach such nonsense I grew up Baptist. They were so emphatic that God saved us through grace and there's nothing we can do to earn or keep salvation. "Once saved, always saved". Fear of punishment just wasn't a thing. Most churches I've been with would teach that lawbreaking causes problems, but not thru divine punishment. Stealing, hitting, murdering...these things cause their own consequences without God having to "smite." Guilt was used as motivation, not fear. The teaching was "after all that God has done for us, we should be grateful" Also a big teaching was that God loves those outside the church Just as much those inside the church. The teaching wasn't God loves US, but God loved EVERYONE. And we cannot do anything to lose the favor of Jesus. Unfortunately the Baptists also have some teachings I don't agree with, so I'm no longer affiliated with them. But their focus on God's love and forgiveness for all I have kept.
"For God so loved the world" that He first condemned everyone in it to Hell then sent is Only Begotten Son to one tiny place on earth to die in torment to redeem everyone who believes in Him. Of course, most of the world's population wouldn't hear the message for centuries, so... Yeah, no, I'm good.
I dunno. Dante's Hell has nine circles with different punishments of varying severity for different sins. Fundagelical Hell is just a one-size-fits-all flambé.
"Fearmongering" was an effective way to convince me that either God was a sadistic SOB that I wanted no part of or what they were telling me about God was BS.
@@DoloresLehmann I drifted to "agnostic" and stayed there, likely because it is the WEAKEST belief one could hold. I fantasize that if I meet God in the Afterlife, I hope to be ready to deliver a detailed critique on Creation, after which He tosses me a universe and says, "Okay. Now you be God!" (This idea comes from Futurama's "Godfellas," which is an adaptation of "Microcosmic God.") But I think God is more like the God of Job, who does things for His Own reasons and doesn't really think about us at all. Which is to say, His existence matters not to us.
You'd think the Bible would spend some time explaining how a benevolent God would create a Universe in which so many people end up in eternal torment...if the concept of Hell had existed at the time
I can't find infinite torment in the Bible. Mat 25.46 in Greek says "chastisement of the age" which actually supports universal reconciliation. It's because it was translated as eternal torment into Latin that the Roman church - which ended up the most influential - imposed it on everyone else. Even in Revelation, "smoke" is said to be long-lasting but not torment itself.
@@MusicalRaichu Matthew 25:31-46 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into **eternal punishment,** but the righteous into eternal life.”
@@epicofgilgamesh9964 The original Greek says "chastisement of the age". For the first half a millennium the predominant view was universal reconciliation where punishment was reformative. Compare Jesus's explanation of fire in Mat 13 as "furnace", fire put to constructive use. The phrase "chastisement of the age" was poorly translated into Latin as "eternal punishment". Because the Roman church had the most influence, that idea became dominant. It was developed in the middle ages into the mythology we have today. The protestant reformers' legal background led them to misunderstand the gospel consistent with a need for "punishment" so they retained that idea even while revising others. Modern English versions will say what fits their theology or what potential customers want it to say, not what the original Greek says. This is true for other passages too.
😂😂 As a young kid I was into science and the concept of eternal anything made no sense to me. I always thought, 1. Everything adapts to its environment given enough time. And eternity is certainly long enough. 2. How can heaven be eternal happiness for everyone? This assumes we either all want to do the same thing or that we will have no free will. And since most Christians assert that we indeed do have free will. Would it not be eternal punishment to take that away. 3. If there was a rebellion in heaven before, what guarantee is there that there would never be another. Again, eternity is a long time. 4. What happens to people who's joy in life was to be with their loved ones. If their loved ones ended up in hell, how could they find happiness in heaven. 5. How was a place that only plays choir music to one person for all eternity a happy place? And this is how I started to learn about the "Rhetorical whip"
Mickey: Aren't you afraid of dying? Mickey's Father: Why should I be afraid? Mickey: Cause you won't exist! Mickey's Father: So? Mickey: That thought doesn't terrify you? Mickey's Father: Who talks about such nonsense? Now, I'm alive. When I'm dead, I'll be dead. Mickey: I don't understand. Aren't you frightened? Mickey's Father: Of what? I'll be unconscious. Mickey: I know, but, never to exist again? Mickey's Father: How do you know? Mickey: Well, it certainly doesn't look promising. Mickey's Father: Who knows what'll be. I'll either be unconscious or I won't. If not, I'll deal with it then. I'm not gonna worry now. - _Hannah and Her Sisters_
Just leaving a comment for the algorithm. Thank you so much, Dan, for this video. Hell anxiety has been so hard for me in my deconstruction journey. I can't tell you how much your content has helped me. So many people "in the trenches" need to hear this!
@gaynchor No I don't think you're misunderstanding. I think the bigger picture is that the Bible doesn't agree with itself on the topic of hell, and people in church leadership will pick the readings that support their end-goals, and minimize the texts that speak to the contrary. There's a good case that can be made for early universalism, but I'm not strong enough on that knowledge to make it. Dr. Roberto J. De La Noval has written a book on it, though, I believe.
...So it's going to be a bottomless pit _and_ a lake of fire? Is the lake of fire _in_ the bottomless pit? Where in the bottomless pit? Presumably not at the bottom so...
@@MusicalRaichu No, the idea of a "bottomless pit" is one that is well-established in English and it doesn't match what you just said - most English-speakers would just call what you just said a "very deep pit" or "a pit of indeterminate depth" or "a pit where you can't see the bottom". The fact that you're objecting to "native English speakers", when _discussing what someone who is a native English speaker is trying to say_ is absurd. Additionally, she is taking it literally because she's lifting it directly from the text and assuming it to be true on its face. Thirdly, under the premises she is assuming it to be true, God has said that the pit is bottomless, and her conception of God is that he is all-powerful so he can genuinely create an infinitely deep pit according to her conception of the universe. Ergo, _she very clearly means it is an infinitely deep pit_ irrespective of what the text says in the original Greek, and so my pointing out that her own claimed descriptions are incompatible is valid. Try to keep up. Oh and finally, since you clearly want to validate what she's saying and yet simultaneously not agree with what she means by it... and I really can't stress this enough... *_if there's a lake of fire at the bottom of the pit, then you can perceive the bottom!_* So your objection to my critique is equally as nonsensical as what she's trying to claim.
Notice prostilitizers cannot do a video without emotive music as a crutch & manipulation / gaslighting tool to add drama to the snake oil pitch being made?
I can see the lake of fire as a metaphor for total destruction. Even trash, remnants of things that we would consider destroyed already, is burned to destroy it "completely". Also destruction still counts as an eternal punishment, as long as the destroyed thing is gone forever
Fire can be used to inflict pain, to destroy, or to refine. It can be interpreted any way you like. The term translated "eternal" is aeonian, meaning pertaining to an age. It only means infinite duration if what it is applied to is already known to be of infinite duration. Destruction is not of infinite duration, so it would just mean "destroyed in the age [to come]". Although, it might mean "ruined in the age to come", that is, refined of all evil to the point where there's not much of the original you left.
In my opinion, the fact that the OT and then Paul in the NT, literally do not mention any place of eternal torment is more than enough for people to re-think or examine why they believe in an eternal torment being taught in the Bible. Cherry picking verses and taking some out of context is of no value to anyone. Great video, thanks!
Exactly. The lake of fire spoken of in revelation 20 refers to the same event described in Mal'achi 4:3 where those attacking the "Holy City" will turn to "ashes" with fire and brimstone from above as described in revelation 14. Also in Mal'achi it says they will be "burned up".
Thanks for just giving me knowledge, brother, and helping me sword sharpen sword good to have someone one spit the facts just want knowledge and understanding and different point of view.
Since I visited Israel my religious studies have expanded to include an Eastern religion and Judaism. When I visited Israel I had an energy experience at the site of a small Catholic Church of the Beatitudes. This small park is believed to be the site of the Sermon on the Mount. Small pavers are engraved with each of the Beatitudes. Shortly after I got there as I went around the circle of stones the energy became noticeable and then stronger and stronger. I finally sat on the grass and let the energy flow around me. This type of thing doesn’t happen often. The last time I felt this kind of intensity was when I went to Pearl Harbor and visited the USS Arizona. Such sorrow I experienced that day.
Here’s how I thought of Hell for a while up until now: 1. God is present in Hell, but it’s His wrath and judgement that is felt. 2. Because I believe(d) that God cannot “punish” punish people until the apocalypse because of Jesus death, Hell is basically God’s pillow to scream into when he’s angry, unleashing his wrath into Hell and upon those in there.
I am constantly shocked at how Christians can have a belief about "what happens to the unsaved" and rationalize "them spending eternity in torment", yet will be joyful at the thought of spending eternity with their "deity" that set up the mechanism [according to their belief system], and see it as "a holy and righteous thing", when in reality, it would be the most abhorrently evil thing any entity could ever do to the majority of people who weren't a part of a very narrow belief.
Hebrews 11:6 says, "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him".
The KJV renders sheol as hell 31 times, grave 31 times, and pit 3 times. That should be all anyone needs to know. All anyone needs to do is try using the word Hell in every instance and then trying to use the word grave in every instance. Can't do it with Hell....easy to do with grave. First instance...Genesis 37:35 And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him. "He" is Jacob. Hell wouldn't work. We can't put it there. Don't worry. We can sneak it in someplace. Genesis 42:38 And he said, My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if mischief befall him by the way in the which ye go, then shall ye bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave. Dang it! We can't put it there. Don't worry, we can get it in somewhere. Genesis 44:29 And if ye take this also from me, and mischief befall him, ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave. Dude! When can we get it in! Settle down. We'll get it in. Genesis 44:31 It shall come to pass, when he seeth that the lad is not with us, that he will die: and thy servants shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the grave. I'm going to the King. This isn't working. That does it for Genesis. Exodus doesn't work. Dang it! Leviticus doesn't work. Numbers! Let's try Numbers! Nope. Going with pit. Deuteronomy! Deuteronomy has to work! Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. Woo-hoo!!!! Got it! Hell! The lowest Hell? What the hell is that supposed to mean? You can't put it there. Dude, fire. Burning. It doesn't get any better than this. Ok. You do have a point. I'll stop here. There is no way anyone with a functioning brain can be translating one word from one language into another and going from grave to what has been defined as hell. There is an obscure case that the English word hell was used to describe a low point in the ground in a certain region at the time. As obscure as it is, it makes a lot more sense than sneaking Hell into the translation wherever one could get away with it and people swallowing it; hook, line and sinker.
This may be a bit off topic, but I’m curious, back in the time of the early church there were 6 main churches. 4 of which were universalist. What was the biblical canon, if any, at the time? Just wondering cause you said that at first, most did not want revelation to make it into the canon. I’m also wondering if what made it into the canon leaned more toward universalism than what we have today.
If you ask any christian why they believe in God, You normally hear a miraculous story.....Hell is real just like Heaven is real...Man can't tell God what he made is fake...smh
Holding to the OP's viewpoint on hell would make such a god a grotesquely savage being which no morally cognizant person could worship or serve in good conscience. "Abandon your moral integrity or be tortured for eternity" is not the value proposition she thinks it is nor can such a moral paradigm be rationally reconciled with "perfect love" in any meaningful way.
Hell or Gehenna as a place of torment is without doubt a New Testament concept. It certainly wasn't borrowed from Hellenistic thought; Judaism wouldn't have allowed it. It was derived from the garbage pit in the valley of Hinnom. The Mesopotamians had a similar belief with Jews of the diaspora. Hades or "adis' just simply means the grave or death that will be destroyed. This is a very distorted explanation of the biblical hell.
He rarely interacts on RUclips. He seems to reply more on other platforms. He did a video a while back about different versions of the Bible, try searching his content and see if something pops up.
Dos John mean Hades the god of the dead, is Hades/Hell a mistranslation? Is this a way to demonstrate the superiority of the christian god over other gods?
i wanna know when you die do you keep more physical body, and then say you died at 99 are you given that body or given your young body to got to hell cause it would be awful to get beaten with a wet noodle if you had your 99 year old body instead of your 35 year old body, and then if you have no body how are you gonna be punish you cant feel any pain, and why are you gettting eternal punishment for the 1 second you here on earth, and the ultimate question i need to know is, HEAVEN A COMMUNITY PLACE OR PERSONAL POCKET DIMENSION ONLY SET FOR YOU, EVERYONE SAYS I WILL SEE MY MOTHER OR CHILD OR GRANDMA IN IN HEAVEN, IF YOU SEE THEM THEN DO THEY GET THERE OWN POCKET DIMENSION OF HEAVEN, AND WHEN YOU GET YOUR PERSONAL POCKET DIMENSION OF HEAVEN DO YOU GET CLOTHES OR EVEN NEED TO EAT, MAN SOUNDS LIKE HEAVEN IS RIGHT HERE ON EARTH
I do find it odd that people would blithely worship a "God" that would commit or even condone such heinous evil as to torment someone for eternity. Fear is a very strong motivation I suppose.
2nd Thessalonians is agreed by scholars to be pseudepigraphical text written after Paul's death. Christians: Scholars agree that Paul resurrected and wrote letters from the afterlife. 😅
I'm surprised that Dr McLellan is conscious about divine plurality in the Bible, but doesn't consider the far more coherent possibility that Hades in Revelation is a reference to the Greek personal-deity Hades. The text it literally saying that the two deities Thanatos & Hades would be bound in chains & thrown into the lake of fire! It's impossible & grammatically awkward that Hell would be thrown anywhere-as THe Underworld-including the place of the Lake Of Fire-was collectively called Hades (as a place).
I think the data disagree with you on one point here. Fearmongering is certainly very effective. It's extremely effective at controlling people, obviously, but I think it is also effective specifically at convincing people that Jesus loves them. If you scare people enough and tell them that Jesus' love is the only way to avoid the thing you've made them fear, then they will believe in Jesus' love.
I take them as anecdotal. Interesting? Sure. Reliable evidence? No. I suspect a dying, oxygen deprived brain might hallucinate just about anything. I can't say for sure that's what an NDE is. But, it certainly could be some of the time. And who's to say which is which?
"It's a rhetorical whip we use on the backs on people to get them to behave in certain ways we want them to behave"... Exactly what people don't seem to get
And based on what dan said the concept of hell was never developed for that purpose Hardly anybody seems to get that People are so stupid they think hell was come up with just to make people behave a certain way When actually the Jews were so oppressed, they were just trying to figure out. Is there going to be a happy life after we die and will the people causing us pain be punished 1 day?
@@langreeves6419 Nothing more, you're right, and I'm adding a clarification. Some readers might misinterpret what you wrote by conflating it with popular modern notions of afterlife.
Reading it again as an adult and a non Christian that really stuck out to me. Especially the fact Jesus is the one killing everyone in revelation and Satan is a bit player in the whole thing. Satan gets allowed to do some stuff by Jesus, tossed in naughty jail for 1000 years and then.. released on good behavior I guess?
Revelation's "revenge fantasies" are as just that, fantasies of how some like to think, not what God will do. Their net result is "people did not repent" and therefore futile. God's way is instead to "slay with the sword of his mouth", win people over with the gospel, not wrath. Those in the lake of fire are still around outside the city in the next vision where the gates are permanently open. Inside there is healing for the nations.
Thanks Dan. A few years after deconstructing evangelical beliefs, I was invited back to church by a friend. The Pastor said he felt compelled to preach on hell. I stayed as long as I could, but knowledge is power. It's control BS that toxic people and organizations use. Glad that "biblical" Christianity is in my rear view mirror.
@GraceIssufficient-uf3ng IF Jesus even existed (as a human apocalyptic preacher) we don't really know what he said about "hell" since Christianity didn't even exist until after Jesus was crucified. In other words, Jesus had no input into the religion named after him. We can't really call him a liar if we don't know what he said, or maybe he actually believed in/preached about hell but not likely since hell as we envision it wasn't a big part of early Christianity, and certainly not in Judaism, and Jesus was a Jew his entire life.
@GraceIssufficient-uf3ng That Holy Spirit really does a lot of the "heavy lifting" behind the scenes and doesn't get nearly enough credit for it IMHO. 🤔 So Jesus inspired the writers of the NT from his spiritual realm to make sure it said exactly what he wanted? For example Matthew 27 verses 50-53 when all the tombs burst open and departed saints go out among the people of Jerusalem? Weird only one of the four gospels mentions it and there are ZERO "outside the Bible" accounts of it. I guess zombie uprisings were a common occurrence back in the day. Let me guess - the Holy Spirit gives "real Christians" the gift of discernment to realize that the dead saints claim was never meant to be taken literally? Anyway I have my own crazy theory: how about if Jesus even existed he was just a human being, and in reality after he was crucified he had no input into what people said or wrote about him? Just my 2 cents.
I've "deconstructed" but I'm still a Christian. I just don't believe the scary fundamentalist stuff that so many of us were taught was Christianity. THOSE CONTROL ISSUES ARE NOT CHRISTIANITY. Read some of the more progressive Christian authors. We need to understand the Bible as the original authors would have understood it. AND NO, we shouldn't read it like a newspaper or a scientific paper! It is a beautiful literary document, but you must learn to read it as the original readers (and those who wrote the words) understood it.
Willing to bet that this content creator doesn't know a fraction of the facts Dan is providing. And even if she was made aware of them, she probably wouldn't accept them. The Dunning-Kruger effect is strong with this one. Smh...
What is interesting to me is that Paul's concept of salvation is not specifically s salvation from Hell. The idea of being saved from hell doesnt seem to be particularly important to the theology of most authors in the Bible
Exactly. Hell avoidance is not the purpose of Judaism or Christianity. For Christians, the purpose of the faith is to bring the kingdom of God to earth "as it is in heaven." Jesus lays out how to do this in his words and actions. The foundation is love.
I always find it funny that people like her are so certain about their final resting place. How is she so sure about herself but so easily judges others? And why in the world would you ever be interested in a god that does the things she is saying?
I began to ponder why this confusion has persisted for so long within Christianity when IMO the plain reading of the text reveals contradictions that ought to lead to corrections, and then I remembered this thing called cognitive bias. I suspect it would be easier to list the cognitive biases that don't lead to this kind of mistake than the ones that do.
It's so sad to see young people wasting their time on this awful, barbaric mythology. It's the 21st century. Time to grow up and drop the superstitious nonsense.
Nobody wants to worship a God that will throw you into an eternal Hell after putting you through Hell on Earth🤦🏼 I understand the threat of Hell nobody would join your religion if they weren't afraid of something😊 If you need a book to be a good person then you're not a good person 🤷🏼
Brilliant as always. Even shared this to FB. There should be a PAC or something to get this info info PSAs to the public. Especially the notion of the 4th century addition of Revelations which is the prime source of most cringey, crazy Christians today.
@ Hell is eternal torment. And what could anyone do that justfies that? I can see, for example, tyrants, serial killers being punished severely and then destroyed. But, does it sound even remotely proportionate to set them on fire for a trillion years? The human race would be extinct. The Universe we lived in would likely be gone. They're still burning. Now scale that down to someone who, say, committed adultry, shoplifted and committed a few other petty sins. I would submit that over-punishment makes you the bad guy.
Yes, it's not plural. Seems rather pedantic however, as there is no confusion what the person who says the thing that everyone now knows bugs you, is referring to. "Revaltions" 😀
@@evangelicalsnever-lie9792 Did people already say "Revelations" before the Matrix movie? Or is it a residue from the movie title? I don't know, since in German, it's called "Offenbarung". Always singular.
Thanks Dan for calling it out for what it is. You need to be careful about nuances in these texts. "eternal punishment" renders Greek "eonian chastisement", punishment intended to reform, in "the age", presumably the age to come. Similarly, Jesus explained that "fire" refers to a "furnace", exclusively fire for constructive use e.g. to refine. The gospels is silent on what happens to people after they're chastised/refined. Revelation's revenge fantasies can be understood as just that, fantasies of what the readers imagine, not what God will do. Their net result is "people did not repent" and thus futile. God's way is instead to "slay with the sword of his mouth", win people over with the gospel, not wrath. Those in the lake of fire are still around outside the city in the next vision. The city gates always remain open and inside there is "healing for the nations". Paul's view is the clearest. There will be "distress" for those who do wrong, they "will not inherit the kingdom" (Christians included), but at the same time, "one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL", God will reconcile ALL to himself, EVERY tongue will profess Christ as Lord. Paul thought that in spite of "not inheriting the kingdom", somehow everyone will be reconciled to God.
I suddenly find myself interested in ANY follow-up to these posts from Dan where the original creator actually reconsiders his/her position and recants, or adjusts, or even decides to become an actual scholar on the subject (do research / think critically / etc). Anyone know of a story?
"Fearmongering is not an effective way to convince people that Jesus loves you, it's just fearmongering". Very well said, Dr. Dan.
It is very effective in controlling people however.
@@alanb8884It's the weakest way to control people
It doesn't encourage anyone to actually change
It just encourages you to try to avoid punishment
@@langreeves6419They don’t want people to change or increase their understanding, they just want to keep them in line.
As far as convincing people that “Jesus loves you”, 1) it’s not hard to convince people that they are special and better than others outside their identity group. 2) the fear mongering reinforces why you need to march in lockstep and not lose the favor of Jesus.
Dan misses the point of fear mongering in this video. I do not dispute anything else he says.
@MarcosElMalo2 wow, you need to try a different church!
All the churches I've been with do not teach such nonsense
I grew up Baptist. They were so emphatic that God saved us through grace and there's nothing we can do to earn or keep salvation. "Once saved, always saved". Fear of punishment just wasn't a thing. Most churches I've been with would teach that lawbreaking causes problems, but not thru divine punishment. Stealing, hitting, murdering...these things cause their own consequences without God having to "smite."
Guilt was used as motivation, not fear. The teaching was "after all that God has done for us, we should be grateful"
Also a big teaching was that God loves those outside the church Just as much those inside the church.
The teaching wasn't God loves US, but God loved EVERYONE. And we cannot do anything to lose the favor of Jesus.
Unfortunately the Baptists also have some teachings I don't agree with, so I'm no longer affiliated with them.
But their focus on God's love and forgiveness for all I have kept.
"For God so loved the world" that He first condemned everyone in it to Hell then sent is Only Begotten Son to one tiny place on earth to die in torment to redeem everyone who believes in Him. Of course, most of the world's population wouldn't hear the message for centuries, so... Yeah, no, I'm good.
It's so funny to me that Dante's Inferno was basically fan fiction but has come to completely dominate the Christian concept of the afterlife.
I met Virgil in Hell and he thought I was cool and we totally hung out together...
Scathing political fanfiction directed at the Greek senate for being a bunch of creepy hypocrites.
I dunno. Dante's Hell has nine circles with different punishments of varying severity for different sins. Fundagelical Hell is just a one-size-fits-all flambé.
@@Duragizer8775 I never claimed they actually read it. Much like the Bible, they just use a mishmash of the highlights.
@@jamesjarvis3486 If it's unbearably hot and you meet someone cool, it can only help, right?
If your husband/wife/partner told you they love you unconditionally but then tortured you for not returning their love - would that make ANY sense?
"Fearmongering" was an effective way to convince me that either God was a sadistic SOB that I wanted no part of or what they were telling me about God was BS.
And at what conclusion did you arrive at?
@@DoloresLehmann I drifted to "agnostic" and stayed there, likely because it is the WEAKEST belief one could hold.
I fantasize that if I meet God in the Afterlife, I hope to be ready to deliver a detailed critique on Creation, after which He tosses me a universe and says, "Okay. Now you be God!" (This idea comes from Futurama's "Godfellas," which is an adaptation of "Microcosmic God.")
But I think God is more like the God of Job, who does things for His Own reasons and doesn't really think about us at all. Which is to say, His existence matters not to us.
@@icollectstories5702 Very interesting point of view! Thanks!
"Sola scriptura" my *ss. Give 'em Hell, Dan.
You'd think the Bible would spend some time explaining how a benevolent God would create a Universe in which so many people end up in eternal torment...if the concept of Hell had existed at the time
I can't find infinite torment in the Bible. Mat 25.46 in Greek says "chastisement of the age" which actually supports universal reconciliation. It's because it was translated as eternal torment into Latin that the Roman church - which ended up the most influential - imposed it on everyone else. Even in Revelation, "smoke" is said to be long-lasting but not torment itself.
That's actually a good observation.
I might add that the Bible is not a living thinking entity that "spends time" or "explains how".
@@MusicalRaichu
Matthew 25:31-46
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into **eternal punishment,** but the righteous into eternal life.”
@@epicofgilgamesh9964 The original Greek says "chastisement of the age". For the first half a millennium the predominant view was universal reconciliation where punishment was reformative. Compare Jesus's explanation of fire in Mat 13 as "furnace", fire put to constructive use.
The phrase "chastisement of the age" was poorly translated into Latin as "eternal punishment". Because the Roman church had the most influence, that idea became dominant. It was developed in the middle ages into the mythology we have today.
The protestant reformers' legal background led them to misunderstand the gospel consistent with a need for "punishment" so they retained that idea even while revising others.
Modern English versions will say what fits their theology or what potential customers want it to say, not what the original Greek says. This is true for other passages too.
I've been trying to tell ppl for years, I don't fear burning for eternity without a nervous system and brain activity.
😂😂
As a young kid I was into science and the concept of eternal anything made no sense to me.
I always thought,
1. Everything adapts to its environment given enough time. And eternity is certainly long enough.
2. How can heaven be eternal happiness for everyone? This assumes we either all want to do the same thing or that we will have no free will. And since most Christians assert that we indeed do have free will. Would it not be eternal punishment to take that away.
3. If there was a rebellion in heaven before, what guarantee is there that there would never be another. Again, eternity is a long time.
4. What happens to people who's joy in life was to be with their loved ones.
If their loved ones ended up in hell, how could they find happiness in heaven.
5. How was a place that only plays choir music to one person for all eternity a happy place?
And this is how I started to learn about the "Rhetorical whip"
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Mickey: Aren't you afraid of dying?
Mickey's Father: Why should I be afraid?
Mickey: Cause you won't exist!
Mickey's Father: So?
Mickey: That thought doesn't terrify you?
Mickey's Father: Who talks about such nonsense? Now, I'm alive. When I'm dead, I'll be dead.
Mickey: I don't understand. Aren't you frightened?
Mickey's Father: Of what? I'll be unconscious.
Mickey: I know, but, never to exist again?
Mickey's Father: How do you know?
Mickey: Well, it certainly doesn't look promising.
Mickey's Father: Who knows what'll be. I'll either be unconscious or I won't. If not, I'll deal with it then. I'm not gonna worry now.
- _Hannah and Her Sisters_
@@xenicmark You have just accidentally discovered the Latter-day Saint understanding of the afterlife which solves all of those problems.
Jesus said that God can send you "body and soul" into Gehenna. So whatever it's supposed to be, you will have a nervous system.
Even as a Christian, I genuinely love this content. Thanks Dan!
I'm saying this in love fellow Christian, you should not love content that is "antichrist "!
@@jacobmetts2668Dan is a Christian, and adheres much closer to Jesus' teaching than whatever trash you believe
@@jacobmetts2668What are you talking about? He literally just gives info on the bible. Are you on drugs or something?
@@jacobmetts2668 You approve instead of ignorant people who distort what the bible to advance an agenda?
@@jacobmetts2668 🤣
“Revenge fantasy” perfectly sums up the concept of Hell. 👏
Excellent! Thank you. The concept of hell never made any sense to me.
Just leaving a comment for the algorithm. Thank you so much, Dan, for this video. Hell anxiety has been so hard for me in my deconstruction journey. I can't tell you how much your content has helped me. So many people "in the trenches" need to hear this!
I hope this video gets a wide circulation. He packs much content into a brief space. I too want to help the algorithm.
Does it really help? Bc it makes me scared bc he says the bible teaches the eternal torment. Or am I misunderstanding?
@gaynchor No I don't think you're misunderstanding. I think the bigger picture is that the Bible doesn't agree with itself on the topic of hell, and people in church leadership will pick the readings that support their end-goals, and minimize the texts that speak to the contrary. There's a good case that can be made for early universalism, but I'm not strong enough on that knowledge to make it. Dr. Roberto J. De La Noval has written a book on it, though, I believe.
...So it's going to be a bottomless pit _and_ a lake of fire? Is the lake of fire _in_ the bottomless pit? Where in the bottomless pit? Presumably not at the bottom so...
No, the lake of fire is filling up the whole bottomless pit from top to bottom... oh, wait.
Metaphorical/metaphysical geography is bizarre.
bottomless just means so deep you can't perceive the bottom. native english speakers take things so literally sometimes ...
@@MusicalRaichu No, the idea of a "bottomless pit" is one that is well-established in English and it doesn't match what you just said - most English-speakers would just call what you just said a "very deep pit" or "a pit of indeterminate depth" or "a pit where you can't see the bottom". The fact that you're objecting to "native English speakers", when _discussing what someone who is a native English speaker is trying to say_ is absurd.
Additionally, she is taking it literally because she's lifting it directly from the text and assuming it to be true on its face.
Thirdly, under the premises she is assuming it to be true, God has said that the pit is bottomless, and her conception of God is that he is all-powerful so he can genuinely create an infinitely deep pit according to her conception of the universe.
Ergo, _she very clearly means it is an infinitely deep pit_ irrespective of what the text says in the original Greek, and so my pointing out that her own claimed descriptions are incompatible is valid. Try to keep up.
Oh and finally, since you clearly want to validate what she's saying and yet simultaneously not agree with what she means by it... and I really can't stress this enough... *_if there's a lake of fire at the bottom of the pit, then you can perceive the bottom!_* So your objection to my critique is equally as nonsensical as what she's trying to claim.
@@MrDalisclock She's being literal too, so... she's just literally bizarre.
Notice prostilitizers cannot do a video without emotive music as a crutch & manipulation / gaslighting tool to add drama to the snake oil pitch being made?
Or shouting. Lots of red-face shouting.
Jean-Paul Sartre was right.
Hell is other people.
All his friends were French! 😂
@@johnburn8031 😅
I can see the lake of fire as a metaphor for total destruction. Even trash, remnants of things that we would consider destroyed already, is burned to destroy it "completely".
Also destruction still counts as an eternal punishment, as long as the destroyed thing is gone forever
Fire can be used to inflict pain, to destroy, or to refine. It can be interpreted any way you like.
The term translated "eternal" is aeonian, meaning pertaining to an age. It only means infinite duration if what it is applied to is already known to be of infinite duration.
Destruction is not of infinite duration, so it would just mean "destroyed in the age [to come]". Although, it might mean "ruined in the age to come", that is, refined of all evil to the point where there's not much of the original you left.
I so appreciate the brief and concise information, from a scholar, in every video. Very educational, interesting and entertaining. ❤
no rest, 'day or night'?
Hell, I'm not even there yet, & I'm tired of it already.
PASS! 🙃
In my opinion, the fact that the OT and then Paul in the NT, literally do not mention any place of eternal torment is more than enough for people to re-think or examine why they believe in an eternal torment being taught in the Bible. Cherry picking verses and taking some out of context is of no value to anyone. Great video, thanks!
Thank you.
Exactly. The lake of fire spoken of in revelation 20 refers to the same event described in Mal'achi 4:3 where those attacking the "Holy City" will turn to "ashes" with fire and brimstone from above as described in revelation 14.
Also in Mal'achi it says they will be "burned up".
Well said!
THANK YOU DAN…..
At some point, we should pull up the old article about how heaven is hotter than hell....
2 Thess 1:9 is horribly mistranslated. Translation committees add “shut out” to the text in order to better align with their eschatology.
Damn. That last line hits hard and we all need to say it louder for the Evangelicals in the back.
Thanks for just giving me knowledge, brother, and helping me sword sharpen sword good to have someone one spit the facts just want knowledge and understanding and different point of view.
0:02 I’m a scholar of THE INCREDIBLE HULK
I believe in reincarnation and I’m born from above through faith in Christ
Since I visited Israel my religious studies have expanded to include an Eastern religion and Judaism.
When I visited Israel I had an energy experience at the site of a small Catholic Church of the Beatitudes. This small park is believed to be the site of the Sermon on the Mount. Small pavers are engraved with each of the Beatitudes.
Shortly after I got there as I went around the circle of stones the energy became noticeable and then stronger and stronger. I finally sat on the grass and let the energy flow around me.
This type of thing doesn’t happen often. The last time I felt this kind of intensity was when I went to Pearl Harbor and visited the USS Arizona. Such sorrow I experienced that day.
Amazingly put Dan.
Here’s how I thought of Hell for a while up until now:
1. God is present in Hell, but it’s His wrath and judgement that is felt.
2. Because I believe(d) that God cannot “punish” punish people until the apocalypse because of Jesus death, Hell is basically God’s pillow to scream into when he’s angry, unleashing his wrath into Hell and upon those in there.
Hi, Dr. McClellan. Why don't you do a video on the three concepts of hell?
I am constantly shocked at how Christians can have a belief about "what happens to the unsaved" and rationalize "them spending eternity in torment", yet will be joyful at the thought of spending eternity with their "deity" that set up the mechanism [according to their belief system], and see it as "a holy and righteous thing", when in reality, it would be the most abhorrently evil thing any entity could ever do to the majority of people who weren't a part of a very narrow belief.
It can't be a bottomless pit and a lake at the same time.
Hebrews 11:6 says, "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him".
Where did the idea of Apocatastasis come from if it does not seem to be in the Gospels?
Acts 3:21
Does that young lady realize she described something that's impossible: A lake of fire that is also a bottomless pit. ????????
The KJV renders sheol as hell 31 times, grave 31 times, and pit 3 times.
That should be all anyone needs to know. All anyone needs to do is try using the word Hell in every instance and then trying to use the word grave in every instance. Can't do it with Hell....easy to do with grave.
First instance...Genesis 37:35 And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.
"He" is Jacob. Hell wouldn't work. We can't put it there. Don't worry. We can sneak it in someplace.
Genesis 42:38 And he said, My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if mischief befall him by the way in the which ye go, then shall ye bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave.
Dang it! We can't put it there. Don't worry, we can get it in somewhere.
Genesis 44:29 And if ye take this also from me, and mischief befall him, ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave.
Dude! When can we get it in! Settle down. We'll get it in.
Genesis 44:31 It shall come to pass, when he seeth that the lad is not with us, that he will die: and thy servants shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the grave.
I'm going to the King. This isn't working.
That does it for Genesis.
Exodus doesn't work. Dang it! Leviticus doesn't work. Numbers! Let's try Numbers! Nope. Going with pit.
Deuteronomy! Deuteronomy has to work!
Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
Woo-hoo!!!! Got it! Hell! The lowest Hell? What the hell is that supposed to mean? You can't put it there. Dude, fire. Burning. It doesn't get any better than this. Ok. You do have a point.
I'll stop here. There is no way anyone with a functioning brain can be translating one word from one language into another and going from grave to what has been defined as hell. There is an obscure case that the English word hell was used to describe a low point in the ground in a certain region at the time. As obscure as it is, it makes a lot more sense than sneaking Hell into the translation wherever one could get away with it and people swallowing it; hook, line and sinker.
This may be a bit off topic, but I’m curious, back in the time of the early church there were 6 main churches. 4 of which were universalist. What was the biblical canon, if any, at the time? Just wondering cause you said that at first, most did not want revelation to make it into the canon. I’m also wondering if what made it into the canon leaned more toward universalism than what we have today.
Revelation...not Revelations. But then you already know that.
Dan, I have a question for you,
Do you believe that the Judeo-Christian God exists?
(Do you believe God exists)
If you ask any christian why they believe in God, You normally hear a miraculous story.....Hell is real just like Heaven is real...Man can't tell God what he made is fake...smh
Is their any place in the bible where God talks about Sheol?
Holding to the OP's viewpoint on hell would make such a god a grotesquely savage being which no morally cognizant person could worship or serve in good conscience. "Abandon your moral integrity or be tortured for eternity" is not the value proposition she thinks it is nor can such a moral paradigm be rationally reconciled with "perfect love" in any meaningful way.
Oh noes ill be eternally separated from a being i dont believe in… woe is me…
Hell sounds like luxury compared to being on Earth.
See also “The Four Yorkshiremen sketch”.
Jesus can love u but if Ezk 8-18 God is angry then nothing helps
Hell or Gehenna as a place of torment is without doubt a New Testament concept. It certainly wasn't borrowed from Hellenistic thought; Judaism wouldn't have allowed it. It was derived from the garbage pit in the valley of Hinnom. The Mesopotamians had a similar belief with Jews of the diaspora. Hades or "adis' just simply means the grave or death that will be destroyed. This is a very distorted explanation of the biblical hell.
Day 3 of asking Dan for his thoughts on the MEV translation of the Bible, if he has any.
He rarely interacts on RUclips. He seems to reply more on other platforms. He did a video a while back about different versions of the Bible, try searching his content and see if something pops up.
“Revelations”
Dos John mean Hades the god of the dead, is Hades/Hell a mistranslation? Is this a way to demonstrate the superiority of the christian god over other gods?
So what is the bottomless pit?
Dan could Thor beat the Hulk in a fight
Thanks Dan, great stuff but I can't stand the sub titles, are they really necessary? They are annoyingly distracting.
i wanna know when you die do you keep more physical body, and then say you died at 99 are you given that body or given your young body to got to hell cause it would be awful to get beaten with a wet noodle if you had your 99 year old body instead of your 35 year old body, and then if you have no body how are you gonna be punish you cant feel any pain, and why are you gettting eternal punishment for the 1 second you here on earth, and the ultimate question i need to know is, HEAVEN A COMMUNITY PLACE OR PERSONAL POCKET DIMENSION ONLY SET FOR YOU, EVERYONE SAYS I WILL SEE MY MOTHER OR CHILD OR GRANDMA IN IN HEAVEN, IF YOU SEE THEM THEN DO THEY GET THERE OWN POCKET DIMENSION OF HEAVEN, AND WHEN YOU GET YOUR PERSONAL POCKET DIMENSION OF HEAVEN DO YOU GET CLOTHES OR EVEN NEED TO EAT, MAN SOUNDS LIKE HEAVEN IS RIGHT HERE ON EARTH
"revelations"
oh okay so she doesn't really know what she's talking about
Isn't hell other people?
Where did judgement of the dead originate from?
Earliest references would be from Coptic religions I believe but I could be 1000% wrong on that.
I think it started when the first mother-in-law died...
Please use pseudo graphical in a sentence. I looked it up, and still don’t know what you were saying.
pseudepigraphical
Mr dan flat out do you belive in god? And that jesus is the son of god?
But at least she is quite pretty. 😉
There is no Book of Revelations--plural--and you let her skate on that.
I do find it odd that people would blithely worship a "God" that would commit or even condone such heinous evil as to torment someone for eternity. Fear is a very strong motivation I suppose.
2nd Thessalonians is agreed by scholars to be pseudepigraphical text written after Paul's death.
Christians: Scholars agree that Paul resurrected and wrote letters from the afterlife.
😅
I'm surprised that Dr McLellan is conscious about divine plurality in the Bible, but doesn't consider the far more coherent possibility that Hades in Revelation is a reference to the Greek personal-deity Hades. The text it literally saying that the two deities Thanatos & Hades would be bound in chains & thrown into the lake of fire! It's impossible & grammatically awkward that Hell would be thrown anywhere-as THe Underworld-including the place of the Lake Of Fire-was collectively called Hades (as a place).
I guess you didn't listen to the video.
I think the data disagree with you on one point here. Fearmongering is certainly very effective. It's extremely effective at controlling people, obviously, but I think it is also effective specifically at convincing people that Jesus loves them. If you scare people enough and tell them that Jesus' love is the only way to avoid the thing you've made them fear, then they will believe in Jesus' love.
This man can speak a lot of kak!!!
To paraphrase Sam Harris, there is absolutely no evidence that anyone has ever gone to hell.
Aside from the the bathroom at Chipotle.
What about all these NDE's? Like Bill Weiss, 23 minutes in hell?
He strongly believes in hell so he experienced what he believes it to be like. Our minds are wondrous and mysterious to me
What about all the people who say they were abducted by aliens? So many consistent stories. Must be true, right? 🤦
I take them as anecdotal. Interesting? Sure. Reliable evidence? No. I suspect a dying, oxygen deprived brain might hallucinate just about anything.
I can't say for sure that's what an NDE is. But, it certainly could be some of the time. And who's to say which is which?
The brain can misfire and do incredible things under stress and trauma. That does not prove the existence of hell.
What about all the NDEs where people saw absolutely nothing¿ either argument is naively unfalsifiable.
The lord is never with us now, so I guess we are in hell.
"It's a rhetorical whip we use on the backs on people to get them to behave in certain ways we want them to behave"...
Exactly what people don't seem to get
And based on what dan said the concept of hell was never developed for that purpose
Hardly anybody seems to get that
People are so stupid they think hell was come up with just to make people behave a certain way
When actually the Jews were so oppressed, they were just trying to figure out. Is there going to be a happy life after we die and will the people causing us pain be punished 1 day?
@@langreeves6419 By "after we die" they meant they will come back to life when the Messiah comes and puts things right.
@@MusicalRaichu yes..
And...
The point is...
Did you have one? Is there more to your statement that got cut off?
@@langreeves6419 Nothing more, you're right, and I'm adding a clarification. Some readers might misinterpret what you wrote by conflating it with popular modern notions of afterlife.
@@MusicalRaichu the greeks...
Again
"I take no pleasure in discussing this"
Then why are you smiling so much? Thanks, Dan, for pointing out all the nonsense out there.
Oh they take fantasy pleasure thinking about how all those "who don't agree with me are gonna get it!"
I have never seen a Christian happier then when they are talking about how saved they are and how dammed you are and going to hell.
Some people are nervous smilers but I do not think that is this case.
😂
@@evangelicalsnever-lie9792 honestly I think it’s just that she feels so blessed with the power of Jesus. Which frankly I find a lot creepier
One scholar described Revelations as “1st century revenge porn.”
The Apocalypse of Peter definitely is 😅
Reading it again as an adult and a non Christian that really stuck out to me.
Especially the fact Jesus is the one killing everyone in revelation and Satan is a bit player in the whole thing. Satan gets allowed to do some stuff by Jesus, tossed in naughty jail for 1000 years and then.. released on good behavior I guess?
@@eilyschneider5370 *Dante is NOT copying ideas from the apocalypse of Peter. Why would you suggest such a thing?* /S
Revelation's "revenge fantasies" are as just that, fantasies of how some like to think, not what God will do. Their net result is "people did not repent" and therefore futile. God's way is instead to "slay with the sword of his mouth", win people over with the gospel, not wrath. Those in the lake of fire are still around outside the city in the next vision where the gates are permanently open. Inside there is healing for the nations.
Julia Sweeney calls Revelation "the Bible on acid."
Thanks Dan. A few years after deconstructing evangelical beliefs, I was invited back to church by a friend. The Pastor said he felt compelled to preach on hell. I stayed as long as I could, but knowledge is power. It's control BS that toxic people and organizations use. Glad that "biblical" Christianity is in my rear view mirror.
@GraceIssufficient-uf3ng Did you not watch the video? It has nothing to do with Jesus lying about anything.
@GraceIssufficient-uf3ng IF Jesus even existed (as a human apocalyptic preacher) we don't really know what he said about "hell" since Christianity didn't even exist until after Jesus was crucified. In other words, Jesus had no input into the religion named after him. We can't really call him a liar if we don't know what he said, or maybe he actually believed in/preached about hell but not likely since hell as we envision it wasn't a big part of early Christianity, and certainly not in Judaism, and Jesus was a Jew his entire life.
@GraceIssufficient-uf3ng That Holy Spirit really does a lot of the "heavy lifting" behind the scenes and doesn't get nearly enough credit for it IMHO. 🤔 So Jesus inspired the writers of the NT from his spiritual realm to make sure it said exactly what he wanted?
For example Matthew 27 verses 50-53 when all the tombs burst open and departed saints go out among the people of Jerusalem?
Weird only one of the four gospels mentions it and there are ZERO "outside the Bible" accounts of it. I guess zombie uprisings were a common occurrence back in the day. Let me guess - the Holy Spirit gives "real Christians" the gift of discernment to realize that the dead saints claim was never meant to be taken literally? Anyway I have my own crazy theory: how about if Jesus even existed he was just a human being, and in reality after he was crucified he had no input into what people said or wrote about him? Just my 2 cents.
I've "deconstructed" but I'm still a Christian. I just don't believe the scary fundamentalist stuff that so many of us were taught was Christianity. THOSE CONTROL ISSUES ARE NOT CHRISTIANITY. Read some of the more progressive Christian authors. We need to understand the Bible as the original authors would have understood it. AND NO, we shouldn't read it like a newspaper or a scientific paper! It is a beautiful literary document, but you must learn to read it as the original readers (and those who wrote the words) understood it.
Glad you managed to escape. Our numbers are growing.
Child tells parents "I don't believe you're my real parents!" Parents set Child on fire
#2 Hell is a lake of fire
#4 Hell is a bottomless pit
ME: *confused Jackie Chan face*
Can God make a pit so bottomless that He can’t fill it with fire?
@@spinnwebe_- can God microwave a burrito so hot even he can't eat it?
@@emptyhand777 AAAAH WHERE WAS THIS FROM?
@@ZootOfficial - I heard Matt Dillahunty say it once a long time ago.
@@emptyhand777 I searched it up and its a line that Homer says in the simpsons.
Hell is queuing up a Dan McClellan video and then losing your Internet connection.
No, I think your referring to "limbo".
I love how she is talking about eternal torment with a pink mic and a pink background 😂
My vision of Hell.
Wow, this was just 8 mins long and is absolutely packed with info and context
Info of what? Dudes a Mormon who believes each one will get their own planet😂
I've heard that the roads to hell are paved with good intentions.
At least we know that hell has paved roads.
😂
@@infiniti28160No doubt, yet Rome's roads were cobbled together, at best, compared to Hell's super duper asphalt and brimstone. :~)
I've heard their central heating system is pretty efficient too, a lot better than Helheims.
One of the many good things the Romans have done for us
Well, at least the roads TO hell are paved. Once you get there, the pot holes are a doozy. Some are bottomless pits. Some are big as lakes.
It makes me sad, seeing these kids so confident and earnest about things created to make them controlled and fearful
Willing to bet that this content creator doesn't know a fraction of the facts Dan is providing. And even if she was made aware of them, she probably wouldn't accept them.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is strong with this one. Smh...
‘Hell is a very real place whether you believe it or not’ and I’m going to prove it’s real by telling you about some obscure passages in the bible.
🔥👀 Now we're so skeered, because we're deeply superstious!
@@infiniti28160 Presuppositional Strawman and Tu Quoque Fallacies are noted, rejected and dismissed.
What is interesting to me is that Paul's concept of salvation is not specifically s salvation from Hell. The idea of being saved from hell doesnt seem to be particularly important to the theology of most authors in the Bible
Exactly. Hell avoidance is not the purpose of Judaism or Christianity. For Christians, the purpose of the faith is to bring the kingdom of God to earth "as it is in heaven." Jesus lays out how to do this in his words and actions. The foundation is love.
I always find it funny that people like her are so certain about their final resting place. How is she so sure about herself but so easily judges others? And why in the world would you ever be interested in a god that does the things she is saying?
I began to ponder why this confusion has persisted for so long within Christianity when IMO the plain reading of the text reveals contradictions that ought to lead to corrections, and then I remembered this thing called cognitive bias. I suspect it would be easier to list the cognitive biases that don't lead to this kind of mistake than the ones that do.
It's so sad to see young people wasting their time on this awful, barbaric mythology.
It's the 21st century. Time to grow up and drop the superstitious nonsense.
Very much agreed.
Nobody wants to worship a God that will throw you into an eternal Hell after putting you through Hell on Earth🤦🏼
I understand the threat of Hell nobody would join your religion if they weren't afraid of something😊
If you need a book to be a good person then you're not a good person 🤷🏼
Why is Barbie telling me to go to hell?
I though I was Kenough?
Dan, keep telling the truth, just like a thermometer. I can adjust to what the thermometer says, instead of claiming it doesn't say that.
Brilliant as always. Even shared this to
FB. There should be a PAC or something to get this info info PSAs to the public. Especially the notion of the 4th century addition of Revelations which is the prime source of most cringey, crazy Christians today.
I would happily listen to more theological scholars like Dan.
@ Hell is eternal torment.
And what could anyone do that justfies that?
I can see, for example, tyrants, serial killers being punished severely and then destroyed. But, does it sound even remotely proportionate to set them on fire for a trillion years? The human race would be extinct. The Universe we lived in would likely be gone. They're still burning.
Now scale that down to someone who, say, committed adultry, shoplifted and committed a few other petty sins.
I would submit that over-punishment makes you the bad guy.
Weird coincidence. The Machinations of Athanasius was the name of my death metal band in high school.
Deja vu all over again - it's the name of my hamster! Okay it's actually what the hamster wants me to call it - but still....
When will people stop saying “Revelations”?
It’s Revelation. There’s no “S”.
Don’t know why it bugs me so much, but it does.
Yes, it's not plural. Seems rather pedantic however, as there is no confusion what the person who says the thing that everyone now knows bugs you, is referring to.
"Revaltions" 😀
@@evangelicalsnever-lie9792 Did people already say "Revelations" before the Matrix movie? Or is it a residue from the movie title? I don't know, since in German, it's called "Offenbarung". Always singular.
Mandela effect
We are talking about the same people who say "Evidences" 🤦🏻♂️
@@johnburn8031 😂 touché
What is christian love?
Baby don't hurt me
Baby don't hurt me
No more.
Here's one major fact about the bible: it contains little to no facts.
Objection! Asserting a loving and merciful God assumes facts not in evidence. Univocality has not been established, your honor.
Thanks Dan for calling it out for what it is.
You need to be careful about nuances in these texts. "eternal punishment" renders Greek "eonian chastisement", punishment intended to reform, in "the age", presumably the age to come. Similarly, Jesus explained that "fire" refers to a "furnace", exclusively fire for constructive use e.g. to refine. The gospels is silent on what happens to people after they're chastised/refined.
Revelation's revenge fantasies can be understood as just that, fantasies of what the readers imagine, not what God will do. Their net result is "people did not repent" and thus futile. God's way is instead to "slay with the sword of his mouth", win people over with the gospel, not wrath. Those in the lake of fire are still around outside the city in the next vision. The city gates always remain open and inside there is "healing for the nations".
Paul's view is the clearest. There will be "distress" for those who do wrong, they "will not inherit the kingdom" (Christians included), but at the same time, "one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL", God will reconcile ALL to himself, EVERY tongue will profess Christ as Lord. Paul thought that in spite of "not inheriting the kingdom", somehow everyone will be reconciled to God.
Ultimate Reconciliation is what the Bible as a whole teaches.
I suddenly find myself interested in ANY follow-up to these posts from Dan where the original creator actually reconsiders his/her position and recants, or adjusts, or even decides to become an actual scholar on the subject (do research / think critically / etc). Anyone know of a story?