The Transgender Revolution with Helen Joyce [S2 Ep.30]
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- Опубликовано: 23 сен 2021
- Welcome to another episode of conversations with Coleman.
My guest today is Helen Joyce. Helen is a staff journalist at the Economist magazine, and has been an editor there since 2005. She also has a PhD in mathematics from University College London. Helen just released a controversial new book called "Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality." Now, this is one of those books that is likely to be misrepresented on Twitter and in some media as transphobic but is in fact a deep and thoughtful attempt to navigate all the complex issues at the intersection of gender identity and public policy.
Helen and I discussed the difference between gender and sex, evolving definitions of gender, the different waves of feminism, gender dysphoria and related phenomenon like autogynephilia, trans identity as well as gender neutrality. We talk about hormone treatments, puberty blockers, detransitioning, and the age at which people should be able to make these kinds of decisions. We discuss gender pronouns, the logic of sex-segregated spaces, such as locker rooms, bathrooms, sports, and prisons. And finally, we talk about the phenomenon of social contagion as it applies to gender identities.
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Having just gotten "reported" at my job for daring to speak of some of this, from this perspective, this conversation is a balm to my soul.
Kelly, I mean this in the nicest possible way: keep your mouth shut. Right now, that's all anyone can do. Stay quiet, and live to fight another day.
Getting fired helps no one.
I agree. Keep your job. It’s sad, I admire you for speaking up though, as this is getting pretty concerning and it is actually affecting real folk all over, it’s not just in twitter wars.
I was also reported to my boss a year and a half ago for using a “she” pronoun for a WOMAN who was copied in that email chain and who self-identified as a “non-binary” person and who I had seen indicated “they/them” pronouns in her email signature in the past. I forgot to use the darn “they” pronoun when I referred to her in the email, I honestly forgot (because it makes no freaking sense so of course I would forget to play into her crazy woke BS while my mind is occupied WORKING).
So she reported me. And now I use “she” on purpose and a lot. Now I will not use “they” in singular, with anyone even if they ask, whereas before I would have done it consciously out of politeness. I simply refuse to talk to her ever again and have requested I dont have to work with her either as I refuse to live my life and do my job walking on eggshells because of this dumbass. My boss was understanding (in private) but still I had to go through this ridiculousness and anxiety of being reported in the first place.
@@krausewitz6786 wrong, thats how this insidious cult has gotten to where it is. I appreciate that Kelly needs her job, but we need to refuse to buy into pronouns and dead names, once you give an inch they want they whole yard. Avoid using pronouns because debasing the language is where these cultists are destroying the truth
@@Beatit19 wow that is so crazy! As if we are supposed to remember incoherent pronouns! So narcissistic of they/them!
Yep think what u want look for a new job but stay silent. I just keep repeating someones name instead of using incorrect pronouns. I just cant call someone they.
Thanks so much for this to ye both. Helen Joyce I cannot thank you enough, your book has literally saved my family from chaos and trauma. I am a Irish mom and our 17 year old son who suddenly "identified" as trans recently and the most challenging part was trying to get any information outside the ideology which seems to be taking over our world somewhat. Your book has helped my family in so many ways 💚💚💚
Hope you, your son and family are doing okay. After reading Joyce's book, did you come to any new conclusions? And, if this isn't too personal, what did your son make of your thoughts?
@@blackmore4 I agree with Helen book and I'm also a therapist so I understand whats happening with it all. We sat down with our son and told him we will support his mental health and I said we need to slow it down as I wont make a big medical decision that could damaged him so he agreed to start trauma therapy. I really think whats going on with my son is we had a very hard 5 years and it was very traumatic for us all and I know how trauma affects our body and Psychy so he's really vulnerable and someone online told him he must be trans to be feeling like that, which really annoys as thats not how gender dysphoria presents. I believe this is a side effort of our government move to gender ideology and self ID which has caused more harm than good. I truly believe this is going to result in a lot of law suits in the future ans sadly we will have a lot of very traumatised and physically damaged young folks.
ruclips.net/video/AU603aS-fmU/видео.html
@@berniefynn6623 thank you, much appreciated 🙏
I’m so glad to hear you’ve been finding the answers and support you need. I wish you all the best.
The “A Wider Lens” podcast recently discussed gender dysphoria and trans-identification in boys, and I thought that might help you, too. Both participants are therapists who challenge the “affirmative” gender ideology.
ruclips.net/video/OruMEMgxhY8/видео.html
I’m nearly eighty and when I was growing up ‘gender’ was simply a euphemism for ‘sex’. It was used in preference by people who found the word ‘sex’ too embarrassing to say.
Im nearly 38 and same.
I’m 28 and I remember ‘gender’ being used interchangeably with ‘sex’ for most of my life. It’s scary how quickly these ideas can take root, I hope gender becomes synonymous with sex once again.
I’m 46 and it’s exactly the same for me. Only in the past few years have I come across the idea that they were so different
I'm 33 and same
28 year old here, and it's been the same way most of my life.
I am 65 years old and this is the most informative conversation I have ever heard. I salute both of you for adding so much to my understanding of a complex human struggle the west is having.
Me man. Me want wrestle woman. Me win.
Hi Norman, if you enjoyed this conversation Helen was a guest on the Gender a wider lense podcast with Stella O Malley and they went even more in-depth with the topic. Would really recommend a listen.
@@jessiejames968 Thanks Jessie, I'll definitely checkout. Have a good one.
@@Grappapappa Andy Kaufman?
@@daheikkinen Haha!
She is right. The failure to honor truth in our conversation over things like pronouns has led to madness.
Me man. Me want wrestle woman. Me win.
That is the goal of some. Make people retreat from active public involvement and reasonable discussions.
@@SeeLasSee Me man. Me agree.
The sleep of reason produces monsters.
I hate to brag, but I've been saying this since 2013. People who said "oh, I'll just use their pronouns because it's no big deal" are partly to blame for the situation we are in now. Encouraging delusion and ostracizing truth will ALWAYS lead to ruination in a species as intellectually fickle as ours.
Helen Joyce is awesome. She sees straight through Gender Ideology nonsense
Almost everynody does but Helen is excellent at articulating the issues.
With the prison issue. One thing that is happening, is that male criminals who are pedophiles and rapists are now tending to try for women's prisons, because they know that male prisoners often mercilessly beat and even kill the pedophiles and rapists. So, not only are rapists incentivized to identity as women to satisfy their morbid predatory inclinations, but they also are strongly incentivized to do so for their own safety.
We are LITERALLY putting the safety of rapists, murderers and pedophiles over the safety of female prisoners, many of whom are non-violent drug offenders, addicts, sex workers, etc... who VERY often have been victims of sexual assault and rape in the past.
I agree, legislation needs to written to protect biological females, so that the prisons are determined by biological sex. New prison units need to be set up for gender related individuals and again risk assessments set up for particular transgender individuals who can be also protected if considered vulnerable.
However in America noone is really safe.
Our UK prisons maybe abit safer...I am not sure but the majority of biological men would always choose to go to a biological female prison over a male prison.
Exactly. In Canada there are no qualifiers for someone to identify as a trans woman and be transferred to womens prison. Literally any man can simply say “I’m a woman”. Lo and behold male rapists are saying they’re women and are assaulting female prisoners. I don’t get why male prisons can’t just have separate blocks for those who claim to be women. Why must they be transferred to female prison???
And our children in any public bathroom,You are right on point about the prison issue,I know if someone who did exactly that,got out on parole and murdered someone within 2 years,this a dangerous ideology.
@@anni730 biological males as opposed to...?
Its quite literally a crime against humanity to enact these policies. Not in some heady theoretical way, putting violent/rapist males in female prisons is level 100 crime against humanity.
Its a blatant disregard for the safety of women, for no other reason than "its mean" to deny males entry. Its state sanctioned rape. Quite literally state sanctioned rape.
It is 100%, from top to bottom, in every way, a heinous crime against humanity.
Helen Joyce is awesome. The best person I’ve ever heard speak on this issue.
And she has lived in Finland! My home country! How I miss the sauna.
Have you heard Abigail Shrier? (Spelling?) she’s great too.
I agree. Very intelligent and balanced arguments.
@2 Spirit Metis Yeah, I have Soh’s book too! She’s great on this topic too (but HJ is the best)
@2 Spirit Metis I wrote the book How to become rich, but I lost all my money to my agent.
@55:22 I appreciate that he was honest when he said he never really questioned why we separate these spaces in the first place. Why we have separate, sex-protected spaces is always understood by women, and little girls from young ages. We know why we need these spaces. I think a huge reason this ideology and movement has taken off is due to (especially those in power) men's different experiences and not really having to think about why women especially should have their own spaces.
I can't remember who said it.... In fact it may have been Helen herself! But there's a great quote, something like "women are always being confronted with their animal natures" (really loosely quoting her), that is- blood, periods, pregnancy, miscarriage, abortion, nursing, menopause etc. We are always going through different stages as women. Men live their lives more or less the same until they're maybe 50s or so. Women..and girls, from the time they're around 10-12 years old, we're always going through cycles. I think that's why it's much more difficult for fully grown adult women to buy this ideology, and why it's primarily teenage girls, college ages, and men of all ages. Women who've lived a fair amount of time as a grown woman is far less susceptible to the idea that "woman" = anything other than a female human being, and/or the idea that women shouldn't have their own spaces anymore.
Well said and excellent points.
God - this comment thread is such a wonderful RELIEF of people expressing good-faith, nuanced thoughts that aren’t memes! I’m feeling grateful; I’ve so needed a reminder that the whole world hasn’t gone crazy.
@@devin_3875 Yes I often have to step back, log off, and take a break from virtual reality because it can have the effect of warping our perspectives and it can be very depressing at times! If we judged based on Twitter, RUclips, Facebook, and what mainstream media tells us, it would seem like almost everyone believes this one thing, But in reality, how many people do we know who are so extreme? I have to remind myself this every day otherwise I feel hopeless. I believe that MOST people are decent, well-intended, and not extremists one way of another. It's just that those aren't the loudest people, unfortunately.
We are here, and we haven't all gone mad!
@@youcantdiealonewithcats I agree so much with this. Sometimes it really feels like the whole world has gone crazy.
@mandy moo Actually things HAVE happened. Women's abuse shelter. Women's prisons. High school bathrooms. It's happened in them all, documented cases, in the news, look it up. The R word I probably can't say on RUclips. For some of those same women, then the P word, from that R-ist. Why are you ignoring those crimes? Are you seriously calling these victims liars? Blaming the victim much? And this happening to women where they should be the safest: in a SHELTER they go to specifically to get AWAY from such crimes.
@@amyb.6368 Sorry darl, @ mandy moo is a troll. He is not interested in honest debate.
Maybe, do not entertain him, but it is up to you.
From early on when trans activism was really getting big, I knew there were things about it that I couldn't reconcile with. This year, I've discovered voices like Helen Joyce, Dr. Stock, and Blair White, and I've discovered that there have been people out in the world giving voice to all that I have been so afraid to express publicly. Even just stating that a trans man is a biological woman will get you banned off of social media for "hateful content." It's gotten so out of control.
We are stuck in a kind of “the emperor has no clothes” moment.
You don't seem to be wearing any.
@@alphablobmom5521 It’s laundry day. 😉
@@SkeletonModel91 Gotta get out those stains.
We are creatures of habit. If enough people say a lie loudly and insistingly, we capitulate out of agreeableness/conformity/fear/naivete.
and ironically, just like in the story it's often children who blurt out the truth lol. Just look up how many stories these people share about being publicly and loudly misgendered by some kid going "mommy, why is that man wearing a skirt?"
Wow, straight to the big guns - what a knowledgeable, eloquent & sensitive speaker.
I started out thinking, “Oh yeah, another person I’ve not heard of, with an opinion and a book.”
I persevered, and wow, she’s produced a very worthwhile critique of the phenomenon. I’m not anti-trans by any means, but I’m skeptical, to say the least, of the indoctrination and medicating of children.
Great interview, Coleman and Helen!
I'm trans. I love her. This was absolutely fascinating. A lot of people talk about trans stuff and I find it offensive because you can tell that they are charged with hatred and disgust, even if quietly (and honestly, given the recent groundswell of transgender ideology, it's to be expected), but you can tell that this lovely woman is putting her foot down, but still remaining compassionate and flexible - which is HARD to do when the world is hurling hate at you for doing so. I hope the world wraps this woman in a love that deflects the pelting from zealots.
I hope one day, the world can accept me for who I am, without the resistance. I just want us to live peacefully.
She is the most eloquent speaker I've heard on this topic. Very formidable but kind.
Glad you’re giving a voice to the blacklisted and cancelled. Those who lost voices need them back.
Fantastic interview. Helen is a voice of reason in what is becoming a world of delusion, increased irrationality and authoritarianism.
I love it when I stumble on someone who can think clearly on confusing issues. Helen Joyce... very nice!
The silencing of British writers and academics on this issue is a disgrace. See also Kathleen Stock's book, 'Material Girls: Why Reality Matters for Feminism. The BBC's flagship 'feminist' (ahem!) radio programme, Woman's Hour, refuses to interview Helen Joyce and some shop assistants at Waterstones bookshops refuse to sell Stock's book. The ceeping authoritarianism of the transactivist lobby is truly alarming. It's pretty obviouse that they want to shut down debate, because they know they'd lose. They can't handle the truth!
That is really sad. And the strange thing is that all of these flagship feminists think of themselves as being highly critical, when they actually nothing of the sort. Joyce and Stock's ways of presenting their cases is precisely what it means to be critical.
@Marjia Adamskiā I am an insexional feminist.
@@Grappapappa ok and..?
@@SexyTCAPdecoy4Hansen No idea.
We MUST boycott those who are for this crap and who are into the cancel culture,they are just trouble makers.Get aT BUSINESSES WHO GO FOR IT.
This is not just a good interview...it's HEALING
I am amazed at your wisdom, Coleman, at only 25.
Thank you to both of you for just making sense.
You asked “how wide spread”. I am a teacher in Canada. We have been told that if a child expresses that they are trans gender, so new name, new pronouns, if they do not want parents to know I am to keep that secret. I am being asked to step out of my lane. “This is really happening! Big Time”!
Oh, Tranada. 😥
That is scary. I don't know if I agree with the idea of children self identifying without parents consent.
I am also a Canadian educator and support transpeople but how these concepts are being introduced in schools is not developmentally appropriate. My son liked Disney princesses, wearing skirts and barrettes, playing dolls and kitchen, in daycare and I made him a tshirt that said: "Boys can like pink, trains, dolls, superheros, princesses, skirts, overalls, anything they want." so the childcare workers would stop policing his gender. When he said he wished he had a v., I said "Yeah, v's are nice but p's are nice too." I kept it loose, fluid, affirming without defining, and developmentally appropriate for his stage. Boys have p and girls have v but there is no such thing as boy things and girl things, everyone can like what they like. He outgrew the princess phase and was a superhero then a cheetah. I also introduced him to a friend who is trans and said, "She was born a boy but for her whole life felt she was in the wrong body so when she grew up she became a woman." Now my son is a teenager experimenting with a very Alpha male identity, which he'll likely outgrow to find a more individual and nuanced self as he matures. The young need openness to explore in order to develop their identities outside of rigid categories. Telling them they are trans or non-binary and freezing their identities with new names and pronouns is contrary to the needs of identity formation and just increases gender policing and binaries. After they introduced the new ideology in schools and on social media, every family I know now has one child who has changed pronouns. That is obviously social contagion and confusion, not true trans identities. You have been put in a terrible position as a teacher!
@@prof.jezebelthank you! My son liked so many things growing up!! He played Barbie with his sisters, cars and trains with friends, have tea parties with the neighborhood, was a knight or princess depending on the game being played. He is now a very compassionate man and is able to stand up for himself and others, both men and women, as well as children.
@@prof.jezebel - wow - what a wonderful comment. My sister-in-law runs two preschool nurseries here in England and she handles gender roles in a similar way: there are no boys toys/games and girls toys/games. If a boy wants to wear a princess dress that's just fine. And that's it - no need to affirm or deny - just allow a free play of gender roles. I fear that a lot of this current gender issue comes from the idea that we must nail down an identity with a name rather than just being a human being. It's very narcissistic.
Thank you very much for bringing this issue to the attention of your viewers. I’d like to add that in addition to being at a physical disadvantage to males, females of reproductive age bear the burden of pregnancy if raped or coerced into sex in a jail or prison setting. This ought to be given robust consideration as males are being granted access to women’s prisons and jails without medical or legal inquiry in some states.
“I’ve been waiting for the right moment to discuss gender identity, sex differences and the transgender revolution. And that moment has come.” I'm guessing the moment has come because a reasonable person has written a reasonable book about a subject where reasonableness is difficult to find. In any case, good timing Coleman, and a great conversation!
Thanks again Helen for your insight..and thanks Coleman for being a great host.
Helen really brought it home when she talked about sex vs gender and gender as a social consequence of sex.
All this "be kind" crap is part of the issue. Reality exists. The more you walk on eggshells, the more they take advantage.
Opportunists are weaponizing empathy.
@@Edgar-Friendly it's called the "pity play". Sociopaths and Narcissists love this tactic. I've dated "trans" people. Victim stats and power is what they desire.
I recently learned that demands for "kindness" and "tolerance" are p3do-file dogwhistles.
@@clownworldhereticmyron1018 always been a sociopath and narcissistic whistle. Now that the MRA has become Incels, they rebranded as TRA and joined with those that identify childten as consenting to sex.
Yeah, "call a reverend a reverend" was a good point but I think in some cases it's more like someone demanding you call God "Our Lord."
At just 17 minutes in, I'm enthralled and grateful for the depth of this discussion. Thank you both!
It’s so much better listening to intelligent people than to screaming ideologues.
@mandy moo get help
so happy to see this conversation, have been waiting for coleman to cover this topic for a long time! love it. great job, helen. 💛
Thank you Coleman for your ongoing bravery, your commitment to truth and for providing to us these top quality public discussions.
I love this conversation, thank you. I get stuck on the fact that someone can't feel like someone they are not. They can only make an approximation of what they think that other state of being entails. Even a trans woman cannot have the experience of being the cis woman they set out to emulate or become. Nothing a trans person does grants them access to the authentic experience. The only decisive end-point of transition is social consensus, not biological reality. So the ultimate goal is to shape how one is perceived, and to perceive one's self according to that feedback, all based on gender-normative stereotypes. It seems a very strict and narrow communication pathway, with the limiting belief of the trans person's mind ("I MUST express as a certain gender norm") imposing limitations on others ("we MUST acknowledge their gender identity and accommodate them.") As Helen was saying, gender dysphoria may begin with early childhood incidents of being shut down and shamed for one's preferences. Communication is cancelled by the parent. Oddly the child grows up to "cancel" others' communication, by insisting it be a certain way (thus emulating the parent.)
Well put! I can't agree with you more.
Absolutely. The idea that one has the subjective experience of the opposite sex by definition can only be constructed through what they believe being of the opposite sex must be. And this invariably is driven by sex stereotypes and cultural norms. I've had so many conversations with men (who think they're not) who tell me they have a typical female sexuality because they want to be desired and are passive. Skimming over just how sexist this is, these men can't be convinced that being sexually passive has nothing to do with being female and that girls and women have to deal with horrific pressure and in many cases violence from peers, parents, and wider community if they don't appear passive. There is not a culture in the world were boys are murdered or even just shamed for having "ruined" themselves by having sex. If women were truly so passive by nature, why does every society have to threaten us with violence and shame for expressing desire?
@@SP-rk9ht That's an interesting point! I haven't spoken to many trans people. Well I have to wonder if men who say they are women because they are "passive" actually have chronic ED and just say they're passive as a euphemism? Are they trying to escape their embarrassment about a medical condition by eliminating that troublesome organ altogether?
@@PS-qn4oz No, they are gay men who are obsessed with macho straight men. They internalise every aspect of the masculine-feminine dynamic and project their own desire to be wanted by a hypermasculine straight man unto women. Their need to transition is largely based on this. I remember one time a transsexual man told me beautiful women have the privilege of being desired by most men. Even if you are a beautiful man, most men are not interested. It was pointless explaining that first of all this isn't true, then secondly, whether you're beautiful or not, many men will treat you like shit anyway, and that men wanting to use you as a masturbation device isn't flattering to most women.
@@SP-rk9ht Well said. I'm trying to think of a reply but I'm so annoyed at the communication blockages that prevent men from comprehending how scary and dangerous it can be, to be a woman. To me, the challenges and heartbreak of being a woman are INTRINSIC to the experience. To put on a biological "costume" of implants and hormones and play-act the female role strikes me as analogous to wearing blackface. Women have suffered and are still suffering peculiar challenges. Pretending womanhood is all about "femininity" ignores and diminishes our problems. I don't feel like elaborating on this ~ the conversation is endless. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't probably never will. Nice talking with you, I like that our initials are reversed. :)
Thank you Coleman for hosting Helen Joyce. It was a very fruitful, illuminating conversation as well as being completely timely. I am seeing this aggressive push by Trans activists and it is important to have information in order to formulate an appropriate response, as well as to go more deeply into the topic. Several years ago I talked with some elementary school students and was surprised to hear they felt they needed to decide if they were gay/bi-sexual/lesbian/trans etc. Where did their childhoods go? Why are we pushing them? Unhealthy and aggressive.
It strikes me as so odd that this Transgender phenomenon has become as sizeable as it has. Less than 1% of the American population identifies as trans, yet this phenomenon is huge. Further, over the course of my life people have never struck me as confused about their sexual identity. It's not until recently, it seems to me, that there has arisen this confusion. Indeed, it strikes me as almost arising overnight. All in all, I think it is a very unwholesome movement, one that is having a very negative impact on society. Down with trans ideology.
If you get on IG, Twitter and more you will see how huge a topic it has become and an ideology with no temperament for questioning or discussion
My children in 7th grade say that multiple girls are now saying they are trans. This is a small school… grade has about 60 kids. The idea that 5 or so girls are now trans blows my mind. They hear this ideology so much and want attention (as many middle school kids do) so they jump on board. I pray their parents are feeding it and giving meds etc.
Down with your ignorance!
@@monicadaniels784 Sorry to tell you, but you are tremendously outnumbered by intelligent people who don't buy this crap. Just read the number of comments that come down against the trans movement here. Maybe you can see the light someday
If you look at the stats per generation. Since baby boomers the percentage of people claiming to be trans or identify as lgbtq, have doubled with every generation. You could make the argument that with time and acceptance, it is logical to assume more people would come out and be more open to share their identity. The issue comes at when these types of stats are presented, it shouldn’t be wrong to question the validity of these claims even if many are valid.
Helen Joyce is a legend.
I SECOND THAT!!
When discussing truckers in frocks the other day, comedian Leon Kerr quipped:
"If you're the one being oppressed, why do I have to do all the work?"
This is the most sane thing I’ve listened to in a long time. Thank you.
Thank you Coleman! My respect for you keeps growing and growing dude! How is it you are so wise beyond your years?! So few men, especially your age are will I go to bring attention to this topic. It is risky.
But the truth needs to be heard. 👏👏👏
@Down with Corporate Amerika maybe this issue isn’t relevant for you, but for many it is relevant and important. And it is risky to discuss these issues. People have lost jobs over it.
She's brilliant and the interviewer is very thoughtful and compassionate.
I appreciate Helen Joyce so much. She is so thoughtful and clear and a true voice of reason.
Did you say ou're only mid twenties? I'm so impressed with your maturity and depth of thought. You're parents should be very proud.
Too bad they didn't touch more on trans trend among teenage girls which is skyrocketing and seems to be even more environmentally induced.
Abigail Shrier has been doing great work regarding that topic; definitely pick up her book "Irreversible Damage", if you haven't already.
Read Helen's book, she writes about it in the book
Internet pornography has girls fleeing from womanhood. We need positive role models starting with the divine feminine.
It’s so sad to see 😞
What I really like about your (Coleman's) approach to interviews is that it is very clear that you actively process not only how much of your personal experience needs to be included in the discussion, but also the fact that you process what you understand the other person to have said. A rare gift, which I salute you for, and which is sorely needed today. Thank you.
You're doing important work, Coleman. Good for you. Keep it up.
Fascinating interview Coleman. I have 3 girls and need to get her book to understand.
Also I would recommend "Irreversible Damage" by Abigail Shrier specifically talking about Gender Ideology's impact on girls.
Yes, please educate yourself on this issue my friend. I live in a conservative part of the US, so I thought this contagion wouldn’t spread here. I was wrong. Three girls within my daughter’s friend group have come out as trans or non-binary. This gender ideology has spread everywhere
I have become increasingly concerned by the trans ideology supported by Stonewall about encouraging very vulnerable teenagers who are basically gay into hormone blockers adn ultimately surgery. The LGB alliance are challenging the narrative as most sane gay people are appalled at what is going on. Helen's book is a must-read. I have to admit I never appreciated the rationale for same-sex spaces, particularly women-only spaces but in her book along with other interviews, it has become apparent the need for such defining spaces
I feel along with the LGB Alliance that any medical intervention with children is child abuse. Let children be children. Also, I am not prepared for other people to choose my words so I will not go along with people who think thy are women when they are clearly not.
Definitely one of the best discussions on the topic i've listened to.
Gender and sex are inextricably linked. Being effeminate doesn't make you a "she", nor does being a tomboy make you a "he". Those pronouns have a purpose.
@Hep Yousef oh no. Say it isn’t so!
Gender is based on sex. Persons of each sex are forced into cultural roles and norms based on their sex, that's the meaning of gender. Cultural understandings of what it means to be of a certain sex. It seems that now we must believe gender is actually an innate subjective experience rather than cultural baggage. And you can magically become a person of the opposite sex if you claim that the stereotypes of the opposite sex apply to you better.
@@SP-rk9ht yes. We are to accept on faith that there is a genderSoul™️, and it is inborn and so powerful that its ineffable penis and testicle magick can override a person’s actual literal vagina and all things that proceed from that verifiable observable fact.
Because they say so.
@Hep Yousef What has McWhorter said about this?
@Hep Yousef I saw him talking about his column for the NYT. He says they knew what they were getting with him and haven't asked him to temper his views at all; he still writes whatever he wants to.
As for they/them being an exciting change in usage, I doubt he's said exactly that. For one thing, it's incorrect - singular they/them has been in use since at least as long ago as Shakespeare, and he would know that. If he's talking about its use for someone specific whose gender is known (and it's non-binary), he's probably talking from a linguist's perspective when he says it's an exciting change. Linguists are descriptive, not prescriptive - they don't comment on how language _should_ be used; they only describe how it _is_ used. The fact that he doesn't object to the change doesn't mean he's "gone woke" or anything, just that he's observing the change objectively. At most, you could say he sees it as a culture war curiosity rather than a hill to die on.
A comprehensive statement of the self evident - patiently explained by two obviously capable & ethical people.
Very well done both - it is a bit bazar that you do have to explain much of this - but its here for anyone who needs the blindingly obvious spelled out.
I also had that experience at Columbia. We had co-ed bathrooms and showers in one of my dorms, and there were a few guys who got a kick out of leaving the door open of the bathroom or shower stall and making us uncomfortable.
Siobhan, I am sorry that you and your fellow students were placed in such an uncomfortable situation. I am a father of 2 daughters and I would be livid if they were forced by administrators into this situation. This is a huge concern of mine, that people will use the climate of acceptability to allow idiots to push these grey boundaries way beyond acceptability.
Why is this not a form of sexual harassment!?
@@nbwall56 I guess I chose to live in a co-ed dorm and it was in a different era, but it does show what men can do to make women uncomfortable and embarrassed.
@@Max-ht9hfWe didn't have the same ideas about sexual harassment then. We didn't even think of complaining, except to each other.
@@daughter_of_earth You were groomed not to object. Disturbing and sad
Great convo! Thanks Coleman. (heart)
At about 28:00. As a dad whose son wanted to be Elsa for Halloween let me say I was fully supportive but it wasn’t enough; other kids at school shamed him out of it. Same thing happened to my daughter who used to love dressing as Darth Vader. It’s the other kids, and not even their parents. It seems like kids have an instinct to categorize the world around them, and to be upset when people don’t conform to their categories.
Yes, because that's what they have been taught (whether by parents or society via the media).
Helen Joyce: *makes very interesting and well thought out point*
Coleman: “yeah….”
It does give the game away a bit, when trans folks are keen on adopting the gender-fashions of the previous generation. MOM's dress and pearls, DAD's hair-cut and suit.
I think it's grandma's or great grandma's dress and pearls, not mom. That's how regressive it is in terms of stereotypes.
Women and girls have a right to our own private spaces. The transgender gaming aimed at women reminds me of the Chinese cultural revolution, when everyone was criticized to death if they didn't subscribe to group think.
Very true,and yes women are entitled to our own private spaces we should not have that right taken away from us.
I am from Finland, and I have to comment that it is a rare exception that men and women that are not a couple go to sauna together! If men and women who are friends etc., not a couple, go to sauna together they usually wear a towel around them, or a swimsuit (towel is more comfortable) etc. Finnish sauna is a long tradition, and the rule is that only couples go to sauna naked. Families go to sauna naked until the children reach puberty. Not after that. - Great discussion, thank you to both of you! :):)
2015 is i think when laws changed because i remember being taunted by men online "you can't stop me" and angry guys standing their ground in the coffee shop female restroom.
Enjoyed this thoughtful and calm interaction *: the humans being discussed do deserve this level of level headedness too: and no arm waving and gesturing from either host or guest is just lovely and easier to listen too. ❤️🔥🔥
Right?? The thoughtfulness, care, and non-emotional hijack is really calming my nervous system.
@@devin_3875 yes! The marked difference is stark: seems to me the more emotive the less they’re actually saying! ❤️✌️
The most sensible discussion of this topic I've heard. Very important.
Thanks for hitting all the important points in a very balanced, educated way. About time.
We need more people in government listening to these points!!
We need more people in Government to be educated in subjects and not just sharing their own opinions and subjective preferences. We want facts and accurate narratives.
@@anni730 agreed. Sadly narrative take precedence over reality, the public doesn't care about how things are only about how they feel about how things are and the politicians pander to those feelings because they want to be elected.
That's how I see things
I’ve heard several of her book interviews by now. This one is the best I think.
What a level headed conversation! Thank you!
another brilliant conversation
Brilliant discussion as usual Coleman.
You would only call someone by their pronouns when they’re not present, when you’re talking to a 3rd party and are referring to them.
They’re not even there to hear you say it.
It’s very confusing if the 3rd party does not know the person and therefore their preferred pronoun, so you’d probably use the ‘traditional’ pronoun.
If both of you do know the person, you’d probably use their name.
The whole point of pronouns is they’re most used to indicate an ‘unknown’
Why would you be so oppressive to dictate how other people speak when you’re not present??
You do not identify as he/she/his/her etc
You identify as I/me…
22
If you're in a conversation with more than two people, third person pronouns can be used. But I think that they lose all meaning if I could merely say to call me "she" when I'm clearly male.
I don’t know why ANYONE caters to “they/them” or “vamp/vampself.” It is just ridiculous delusion. When you see someone refer to his- or herself as Queen Elizabeth II do you say “Your Majesty” to be kind? Or do you ask if he has misplaced his meds?
If I call myself “Pulitzer Prize Winning Journalist E” do you feel like it’s polite to lie and call me that too?
@@Fahrenheit4051 right, because in that case it serves to disambiguate and you’ve just cut its power off at the knees.
@@Fahrenheit4051 no that's as meaningful as they are
Excellent discussion. Clam and clear with some good, appropriate questioning from Coleman that enabled Helen to expand on some of the arguments.
Great conversation. Thank you.
Excellent. Keep up the good work, both of you. Sooner later, Sanity wins.
Helen, you amazing woman ❤
An excellent interview from you both.
In boxing or mma the reason for weight classes also has to do to the fact a person can be seriously injured or killed if they competed against someone with extreme size advantage. Where other sports that is not the case.
Me man. Me want wrestle woman. Me win.
No males are physically stronger in every way. Testosterone increase bone density, heart and lung function (they're bigger). They are taller and have narrower hips, ( so they can run faster), and so on.
@@louiseparker1915 How dare you call me a whale.
@@louiseparker1915 Correct. The one physical attribute women are better at is flexibility.
She is brilliant. Need to get her book. 💖
her book is extremely good and is as direct and honest as her talk on this video.... I thoroughly enjoyed it.
I would just want to say that in Ben Shapiro’s defense, he has the exact same stance as Coleman with regards to trans people and their pronouns. To be a decent human being he would address them the way they would like in personal interactions but when it comes to discussing biological truths in intellectual debate, he would not agree that a biological man is in fact a woman.
It seemed in the podcast Coleman was insinuating that Shapiro would not use someone’s pronouns even to be polite, which is not the case.
Agree. Shapiro cites Blair White as a trans person he respects and would respect her chosen name. I think his stance does make sense
Ben Shapiro doesn't need anyone to defend him... dude's a one man squad
I think being truthful is more important than being polite.
@@mindgames11 whelp, often times people are mistaken about his actual stance on this issue and that he’s not some cruel transphobe intentionally trying to insult people. The vast majority of the MSM paints him as such, either out of ignorance or in an attempt to smear him in order to try and stop people from listening to us utterly reasonable take on most subjects.
@@MJ-qb5ph Blair White, that guy looks so much like a woman I pitty anyone who tries to date him only the learn she is a he. Tricky Tricky Tricky.
I just got around to listening to this episode, and it didnt dissapoint. I have way too many conversations on the backlog. This is an amazing, nuanced discussion. I have a hard time expressing my struggle with alot of these issues because they are complicated. But being a math-minded person like Helen, I rely on hard truths and data. That tends to get left out of the conversation on both "sides". These long-form discussions are essential for us all to participate in and hear.
Just found you, Coleman. Definitely will be tuning in to all your interviews. 👍🏼
Can’t believe it’s 2022 and this is still the topic of the century.. first world problems Indeed. Thanks for the bit of sanity 🙏🏽 great convo .
"They" is a word that already has a meaning.
Such a good episode!!!
Michigan Planned Parenthood web site says they are not currently able to prescribe puberty blockers or gender affirming hormone therapy to people under 18 years old.
The issue of pronouns - that's tearing apart our democracy - is beautifully addressed 29:40
We already had the spa issue with a predator at WiSpa.
Google Karen White...
@@jayjee735 can you be more specific, it's a very common name. What is this in regards to?
I have Muscular Dystrophy and have never felt right in my body. As a child I ached to ride a bike, or swim, drive a car and be liked. I was so embarrassed about my body. Would claiming I did not have a disability helped?
One thing has to be said unequivocally. It is beyond fortunate that Helen Joyce turned her attention to this topic.
I just tend to not use any pronouns for a trans person... because, no matter which pronoun you use, it will always confuse and/or gaslight people to some extent.
you're misusing the term gaslight
@@beephex1 I don't think I am using the term incorrectly.
But the only thing about pronouns is that it's speaking about someone in the third person so if you ever read articles about trans people they're always supremely confusing. Calling a male to female trans woman she is confusing to normies or just about everyone besides people that know about transgender ideology and calling that person he is confusing to people who do subscribe to transgender ideology and they would say that your gas lighting transgender people in doing so.
@@GeekOwtLowd gaslighting is when you purposefully but discreetly do something to torment someone and then, when they call you out on it, you tell them that they are crazy or imagining things or the classic "you're too sensitive"
@@beephex1 that's what the character specifically did in "Gaslight" sure. But the term is used more broadly to mean anything someone does to convince others they are crazy or to doubt their perceptions or memories.
@@beephex1 How is that not what's going on with the woke ideology when discussing topics such as transgenderism? Adherents have, for their own ends, purposefully and subtly altered the words and definitions society uses to describe gender, and if you disagree you're transphobic.
Very good conversation. I'm in my 70's and this subject has always been a problem for me as far as children and even teens and older thinking they will always feel the same about things as they do at whatever age their at. The thing is, even though I'm an old fart, I have found myself changing my opinion on things that I thought were solid beliefs. This podcast does a very good job at expressing what i think is a fairly logical point of view. Helen Joyce is a sane voice in a mixed up USA. I say USA because it seems to be much worse here than other countries. Hat's off
wish this was longer it was such a great discussion
Long awaited conversation
If you enjoyed this conversation a great podcast on the topic is Gender a wider lense with Stella O Malley and Sasha Ayad. Helen was a guest this week and went even more in-depth with the conversation.
Great conversation! Thank you for the recommendation!
@@carolyng5235 Glad you enjoyed it👍
I am waiting for the next truth that no one wants to admit, that porn consumption and addiction is the primary cause of this whole mess
What an interesting conversation
Thank you!
Social media has a lot to answer for as well
The problem with calling someone by a "preferred" pronoun is not a problem until it becomes performative and/or an intentional imposition of force used to score a social victory against another person. The further problem is when the actual words defy grammatical correctness in favor of political correctness and then devolve into a neverending hodgepodge of invented words.
Yup, tell me about it as I’ve lived it. Everything was cool when they only said it was “preferred”. But when someone actually reports you at work for “mis-gendering” them, something that could potentially jeopardize your livelihood or at the very least make you go through a very uncomfortable experience over forgetting to use a PRONOUN (that didn’t make any grammatical sense in the first place), now that is crazy.
My friend is always correcting me when we’re talking about her boyfriend, who is recently a they, although she always refers to him as he. I don’t say anything. I’m tired of pronouns. And I dont want to use them. It’s gotten really bad. I had to fill out all the forms again at the doctors office I been going to for ten years. They added a new question. What is your pronoun?
Good conversation, Coleman. Thanks.
This irrational ideology deserves all the push back it can get.
There appears to be a tension between some of the essentialist arguments ("i am not the sex assigned at birth, i am positively proclaiming that i am truly the other sex") and the social constructivist arguments ("my biology doesn't determine who I am, sex and gender are fluid and society/individuals choose what sex/gender means"). You can hold to either position in different situations but at some point they are mutually contradictory.
This seems to be a primary rhetorical strategy all the Critical Studies use. Mix-em-up between Objective, Subjective, and Intersubjective reality categories, within the frame of a single argument.
It’s maddening; like trying to reason, in good faith, with a schizophrenic lawyer (who’s holding you hostage.)
@@devin_3875 that’s a great analogy
Nicknames and names are personal, as in they belong to you, whereas the pronouns are language, a common good. You can invent words, but people shouldn't have to use them just for your sake.
"It's not an identity, it's a behaviour " - A former trangender Walt Heyer's story
If you want to read a book that shows the full picture of the agenda I'll recommend
Scott Howard "The Transgender Industrial Complex" !
Brilliant. Blah, it's nuts that some of this stuff is even questioned in the wider media.