Scanning a Predynastic Granite Vase to 1000th of an Inch - Changing the Game for Ancient Precision!
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- Опубликовано: 11 июл 2024
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The debate around whether or not ancient technology existed and was responsible for creating the obvious precision found on many ancient artifacts has taken a strong step forward! Concrete, undeniable evidence for utterly astounding geometric precision has been discovered by professional metrologists Alex Dunn and Nick Sierra, based on the structured-light scan results from a predynastic rose-granite vase, an artifact from Ancient Egypt that is at least 5,000 years old. The implications from this evidence on the story of our own history of civilization are profound.
This is exactly the type of work I’ve been calling for, for years now - the application of our own advanced levels of science and technology to the open-minded investigation of our past. Join me as we explore this remarkable new work, and what it might mean. Many thanks to Alex, Nick and Adam for their time and efforts in getting this work done, and I will be releasing my full discussion with them as a video on this channel.
The vase scan reports (in metric and imperial) are available on my website unchartedx.com , in the post about this video.
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DISCLAIMER: working with primitive or powered tools on stone or any other material is an inherently dangerous activity. If you are going to attempt a recreation of artifacts like this vase, please be careful, and understand that any such activity is done entirely at your own risk, and the choice to do so has nothing to do with the creators or speakers featured in this video.
0:00 Introduction
2:15 Cosmic Summit and Tours
3:48 Introduction to Guests
11:47 Vase Background
14:39 Vase Context Speed-run
16:48 Vase Scan Details
53:23 Conclusions and Thanks 
Развлечения
I work in machining and engineering high-precision metal objects like many on here, and I think it absolutely takes a person who has experience in building things at high levels of precision to truly understand what the hell we're seeing. What the average person and probably every archeologist hears when we talk about high precision, is "they had to work on it really hard, and for a long time". They don't get that we're not talking about how FAST it was done or how DIFFICULT it would be, as in needing amazing mastery.... we're saying IT'S NOT POSSIBLE WITHOUT A MACHINE. Humans hands aren't guided by highly rigid steel guide rails with sealed roller bearings, we can't form perfect shapes by hand, and even where we can get get close, its only in material that is very easy to work with, not material that is so hard that you need diamonds to cut it, and done to such a level of perfection that they achieve a highly reflective surface WITHOUT POLISHING, meaning the cutting tools are cutting so perfect, that a polished surface is left behind.
I have a background degree in game design and 3d modeling so I can understand the steps of processes to make this vase in its shape, but to the degree of accuracy would not only require machines, but also the assistance of computers that we have only developed in recent times ourselves. To be able to even create this you'd have to be technologically advanced to some extent.
We use our current high precision machines to make equipment with such precision for high stress rotating components and what not and these people used such precision to make their cereal boxes, I wonder what other precision items were lost to history.
Well said
Well stated . Thnx.
Nailed it! I'm saving this for my archive.
There is another excellent metrology company in Connecticut where I worked for over thirty years as an optical engineer. The company name is Zygo Corporation. Besides having on hand numerous state of the art CMM's to determine mechanical surface precision, they develop and manufacture interference microscopes which are capable of non-contact surface measurement with lateral sub-micrometer and nanometer vertical resolutions. The interference microscope can profile surface finish, roughness and form over micrometer to millimeter areas to gain insights into the polishing methods used to shape these ancient vases. I am retired, but I may be able to contact someone who might be interested in advancing the effort to further analyze these incredible vases.
Do it!
Do it!
It's strange. Before my comment, the reply count said 2. I can't see any though. They must be talking about something the censors don't like.
@@BlueEyedMomof378 all we said was "do it!", literally
@@BlueEyedMomof378 The two posts not showing were spam. I'm still waiting for UnchartedX to respond to my offer. An analysis of the surface data taken with an interference microscope will reveal among other detail whether the polishing was random or directional, i.e. hand polishing or polishing during mechanical rotation.
As a master fabricator at BROTHERS STONE LLc. For 9 years my work shown in better homes and gardens notable works the Oklahoma history museum CEO of Pfizer home. In just referring to the exterior of the vase being off 17 thousands of an inch from center. So after cutting and edge of a granite counter top then running a router with 2 bits up to 120 grit. Diamond embedded tools. Then by hand polishing the edge after that. Due to the difference in granite matrix from feldspar to quartz xln just the hand polishing of a bullnose edge after the perfect edging done with the router the polishing pads alone cannot get you into that type of tolerance I know because you can look down and see how it's not in fact perfect after the hand polishing. You may get close to four or five sheets of paper but not under that. This is ridiculous I don't know if an Italian cnc machine can actually get there because the finish couple grits are done by hand so I don't know if you can possibly get that close with our machines because they get it to a point and a final shine gets human hands on it. It will look perfect because it's shiny and close. This is totally out of this world. First and foremost they are not doing this without having the ability to embed diamonds into metal and or some composite material. If you want those diamond to last more than one vessel it has to be embedded into a metal of some kind on the lower grit it's also only going to be that accurate if they are embedded in metal. Here is the trick diamonds burn unless they were embedded into the metal of the tool on another planet or in an anaerobic atmosphere there cannot be any oxygen in that environment that those diamonds are getting melted into that metal. They could not have had that ability to do that. Unless they had ovens that were perfectly sealed and could pump in an inert gas and push out every oxygen molecule. It's not the easiest thing for us to do that why those tools are very expensive. Carbide stones wear out so fast there is no way it's anything like that. They would have to find a diamond embedded meteorite and make that into a tool but I don't think anyone has ever found a diamond embedded iron nickel meteor. They needed technology computational machines to do it period. Blown away.
Search for a channel called 'Infrafon' and a video on the channel that says 'how to "melt" stone'. Blew my mind going through his videos.
Maybe they could "sinter" these materials in some way to make them in an easy and cheap way. They must have had much more advanced technology that us today.
I am just glad the ceo of pfizer can afford to have custom granite counter tops. I would hate for him to have to go without.
Thank you sir I think they used a sirum unknown to us composed of crushed pyrite
And other organics to polish stones
Yes sir, I'm blown away too. Glad to hear from a master craftsman. Thanks for your insight!
After watching this and having a background in engineering and CAD modelling, my theory is that the 17 thousand of an inch varience accounts for the method or way in which it was constructed. Such methods similar to water jet, laser, etc.
Obviously unknown methods to us now, but that gap in precision isn't actually a gap but the width of the creators "tools".....
Truly beautiful and awe inspiring.
Thanks for finally analyzing this and presenting it.
Search for a channel called 'Infrafon' and a video on the channel that says 'how to "melt" stone'. Blew my mind going through his videos.
@@xndr_mrw just watched that video. absolutely ASTOUNDING. vibration and resonance is probably the key to all this.
@@bcccl569 and he is doing primative tests and devices with crazy results. He has video's on mutliple devices and mechanisms on his page.
This looks like how the tubular holes could have been made, looks similar to a tattoo pen and they have found mummies over 5000 years old with tattoos. Also I saw some video that said a lot of tuning forks has been found that aren't on display, if you hit a note it will vibrate against a surface and they could have used this as a tool for stone work, and then expanded on that concept with further developments.
I think its the science of reversing an explosion. An evolution of setting concretes. Vibration is a key variable, plus content pattern dispersion, and setting. These ideas taken to the extreme to where you take the dust of a stone, suspend and set them in patterns. how I don't know
I've been a machinist for 35 years and I can't imagine how these were made. They couldn't have been turned unless the handles were glued on. That means five axis machining, at the very least, around the handle peripheral. It looks to me like precision casting, but it's granite. Absolutely mind blowing. If anyone thinks these things were hand chiseled, they have no clue what they are talking about.
I've noticed clear traces of ballend profiling work on some artifacts, so I'd say 5axis isnt absolutely necessary. I think the ideal way to mass produce these would be a vertical lathe with some live tooling. We could have achieved this in the 1960s I believe with NC card machines.
And there are many "experts" who are obviously clueless to anyone with a tad of common sense.
I was kinda thinking about the handles being “glued” or some kind of stone welding. Some of the shapes of megalithic structures to me seem almost poured or something. If you could do that (a bit of a reach) I could see maybe being able to attach handles after turning. Guess you’d have to see if there’s any deviation in material.
But I’m just some uneducated curious person. Food for thought.
"...handles glued on..." If you look closely you can see that the imperfections / colour changes in the base stone are continuous from the barrel of the jar to the handles / lugs. They are of the same piece of rock; contiguous. That is the really hard part of the job - sustaining the symmetry in the part of the barrel at the latitude of the handles.
Really, glued on? If you've been a machinist for 35 years you should be quite familiar with how a mill and dividing head or just a lathe/mill combo would be able to make the same features.
Retired machinist here... The run out measurement of the lugs to the axis of the jar are a feat in themselves!! To me this also indicates that the process of making them is likely done without removing the piece from the "turning axis" or "machine".
Love your work guys and especially to you Ben... Keep it up as we're all better for it!! Much love
You're completely correct. The work piece is moved horizontally under the cutting head to both bore the interior of the vase then cut the outer surfaces. They may have had 2 cutting tools on different axis enabling the cut under the vase top rim as the radius of a blade obviously would not allow that without turning it 90 degrees.
@@PBJORKE gotta admit I'd really love a 5 axis machine that can cut such hard material... This doesn't explain how they made the rectangular and triangular shaped stuff either!!
@@FartingInYourGeneralDirection the cutting head or heads only need to need to be oriented vertically or horizontally. Unless there is an angled cut somewhere I'm not seeing. The cutting tool moved vertically as would a drill press. Then the work piece is moved horizontally. The vase must remain fixed to the rotating plate at its base to maintain symmetry but could be move anywhere on the horizontal X -Y axis.
@@PBJORKE only thing I've used close to what may do a similar (but far inferior) job would've been a indexing head on a universal head milling machine table and this wouldn't have been able to keep within a cpl of thousands of inch tolerance.[ My background includes weaponry and aeronautical engineering & machining and similar tolerances ]
@@FartingInYourGeneralDirection the equipment they used was undoubtedly without runout. I actually think they probably used 2 different cutting tools. One would be a boring tool for the interior of the vase. Two different types of cutters for that operation. The first would strictly be use to bore a cylindrical hole to the bottom depth. The a second cutter; a disc with a diameter slightly less than the vase mouth would be used to shape the interior of the vase. They would be able to expand the interior volume half the disc size, minus half the shaft diameter. The same tool would be used to cut the under side of the exterior vase lip. The exterior could be cut with a vertical saw probably a dado blade. That what I used in my shop for fabricating granite bowls.
Master Gunsmith, Machinist 3 and Modelmaker opinion- I saw this a couple days ago and its been eating away at me. The thing that is so remarkable is the actual metrology; not contemporary to us but contemporary to the manufacturing date. The ability to manufacture at a given tolerance is constrained by the capability to measure those tolerances. More than just seeing the results of extreme manufacturing capabilities, we are seeing evidence of ancient metrology that is at the very leading edge of our current capability.
The other thing that stands out is that tolerance is proportional to function and cost. If a client is asking for extremely expensive tolerances, you have to ask yourself for what function that may be. If a customer is making a part that requires no tight tolerances, you assume a much cheaper manufacturing cost at looser tolerances. A vase would definitely qualify for cheaper tolerances- meaning it is highly unlikely what we are seeing with this vase was considered expensive to make. Why hold +/- 0.002" on this vase if the human eye would never see the difference between that and +/- 0.010" or even +/-0.020". There are two answers- one is that there is some mechanical aspect to the outside of the vase that we have not identified (which really makes no sense) or this level of accuracy was cheap and easy to manufacture and measure.
I watched an old craftsman working on reconstructing a mill with wooden gears and pin type teeth and carved teeth and he did the majority by eye and when he started getting down to very close measurement, he would use a goose feather to gauge the space between the teeth and such and the entire machine ran and was in balance without any vibration detected!
My mate Cory C. has crystals that help you dream . I'm helping him move Thursday I will steal them
it's so sad that seemingly intelligent people are duped so easily by these con artists
@@mrosskne youve been duped into thinking people are seemingly intelligent 🤓
@@jeffreyyoung4104 good for him.
I am a Master Machinist. I'll start tomorrow on the aluminum one I don't even think I could get that close. Any tool on earth we use in the machine shop would absolutely die if it touched a rock. So to have .009 of an inch parallelism to B and .005 of an inch perpendicularity to A over 6" at least is pretty nuts. I would love to try and make one out of the granite but I don't think it is possible at least not with my machines I have access to. Maybe with live tooling 9-axis cnc grinders with diamond embedded cutting wheels but your still fighting tool wear and uneven hardnesses. I'm using rough measurements from the video and the value from the height gauge to make a very close model to make on my machines at work. once there is a cad file to work from or even a blue print I'll make an exact copy or at least give it a damn good shot. I'd also love to make one on the manual lathe/mill but id need a few thousand in tooling I believe.
I don't think the people at the museum have any idea how hard this would be to replicate 1 let alone but then have thousands of them is insane.
keep in mind there is at least one stone vase in a museum that has walls as thin as a playing card, Ben shows a photo of it in a few of his videos.
Hey Ben! I've been a huge fan of your work for years! I'm one of those mainstream historians who are supposed to hate you. I'm glad I didn't stay in academia but became a teacher instead. Hopefully the day will come when we can teach a more accurate version of the past in our schools!
It's scandalous that we don't have such scans for dozens/hundreds of these vases. Is there nobody in the museums that even thought of it?
i think they did those scans and all but chose to hide it! lots of stuff as already been erased for sure
now why is the real question for me
No... they're to busy climbing the career ladder
and keeping their mouths shut
It's like the Greeks, with the Elgin Marbles, they can't be trusted to care for artifacts which are not clearly their own, anyway.
how many were scanned?
They just don't care enough to talk about it.
I really believe engineers, of all disciplines should be more involved in these discussions. The world wide archeology department is crumbling, in this temple of their own. The one, that is filled with misinformation, forged stories of ancient stone works, and block/bedrock construction. I am optimistic with the amount world wide support , for honest scientific research to accurately dating these artifacts. btw.. the vases are more than amazing. The mathematics on these things, is like trying to get your mind around light years vs. bicycle travel. Thanks Ben
I'm a fabricator for a multinational corporation. These vases represent a decent chunk of man hours, but the tools used to are all simple tools made from wood and work hardened copper. You don't need a harder material to cut stone. You use an abrasive (thats still how we do it today).
I could cut a granite block in half with a copper saw, a bottle of water and a handful of sand. And its honestly not that much slower then using modern power tools.
So much dogma too, archeology in particular has nauseating levels of dogma present at all levels.
Everything they don’t understand is ceremonial or religious or decorative….
@@5hiftyL1v3a yeah man, this is why so many machinists etc are stumped. who knew that they were overlooking the simple fact that you can make these vases by hand? i mean, they must be pretty dumb, right?
I completed an apprenticeship in mechanical engineering in the UK. The first year was machining using a lathe, milling machine, drills, a surface grinder and also hand tools. We had to machine brass, aluminium and mild steel to a tolerance of 0.25mm (10 thousandth of an inch or 10/1000) for reference. These are easier materials to work with than the granite used for the vase. We had a greater margin of error to work with and it was still difficult for us at 16/17 year old. I am confident to say without any doubt, they had advanced technology back then and would love to see more artifacts scanned and analysed.
Having worked as a machinist/toolmaker for 40 years, I find it absolutely astounding that it has taken this long to start doing any serious metrological analysis of these objects. And, in my humble opinion, this specific type of analysis will absolutely establish the validity of precision manufacturing techniques used by ancient cultures.
Also, to echo statements I’ve heard you make... one does not “unlearn” advanced technology and replace it with more primitive technology, as mainstream archeologists are claiming has happened in Egypt. To put it bluntly, mainstream archeologists are simply full of SHIT.
I also agree that archeologists do not have the expertise to legitimately analyze these objects. Therefore, they should keep their collective mouths shut. They are not professionally entitled to have an opinion. They are simply out of their element.
100%
have no doubt that if enough pressure is directed toward a proper investigation, the Egyptian authorities are NOT above destroying these artifacts to maintain the narrative. this is evidenced by the tons of destroyed stonework removed from the Step Pyramid.
Agreed and mainstream archeologists know and understand this. That is why they closeguard the authority over ancient Egypt. They're scared to lose supre authority.
Cataclysmic events can wipe out not only learned technology, but also the teachers.
thank you
Truly amazing Ben! I'm a CNC programmer. I work with 5ax mills. No lathes at the moment. It would be fun to get my hands on a solid model of that vase. I would prob need to scale it down to fit in my work envelope. It would be difficult for me to undercut the inside without some special tooling, but I could bore out the throat. The OD, and lugs wouldn't be too bad. I'm baffled how the ancients were able to make that. In production we never make only one. It would be super mind blowing if among the 40,000 pieces. 2, or more were exactly the same. That would be undeniable machine automation. I love your channel dude!
That's a really good question and point. Are there any identical twins in the 40,000 lot?
Fantastic discussion dude many thanks.
@@Innomen in total, several 100,000 seem to have come from the Saqqara region. and yes, there seem to be many that are very close in size / spec. but since they were mostly scattered across the world, you rarely see 2 identical twins in the same house
@@adamnyc7935 That's still an extremely low degree of copy. If these were made by machine, the lack of copies could be a clue to its design. Procedural generation in the genre of vase manufacture?
You nailed the most important part of the whole thing. I'm not impressed with a single vase that has some good circularity, or perpendicularity. This sort of thing is easily achievable using manual tools. That's not even precision in the strictest sense.
Precision is saying I want to hit this number and then doing it. And if you can do it once, you should be able to do it over and over. And without any known examples of many identical items being created I'm unconvinced that something more advanced than a simple lathe was used here.
Hey - does he ever address the fact that I can easily see even just by eye the fact the the lugs on the side are not even, the holes aren't aligned or they aren't even opposite each other?
The holes in the lug handles are not in alignment / to the same manufacturing standards, as the rest of the vase, which raises interesting questions about the time line of when the holes were made. Many vases have the lugs, but have no holes through them. This question is addressed specifically in "Talking Ancient Egyptian Precision Vases - Swapcast" video uploaded recently.
@@pauldmann1166 im talking about the lugs being different heights on the vase, they aren't directly opposite each other.
It is frustrating and tormenting to have these artefacts and yet no evidence whatsoever on what technique or method was used to create them.
Iam a engineer who engineered high precision rotary tables to measure gas turbine rotors and i find this so impressive. Thanks what a great video👍
How would you build the axis of rotation without bearings? It would have to have very low wear to stay true long enough to make something... I guess if the axle was say 50 feet long, and rotated on thin wheels at the front and back of the axle, you could get very precise perpendicularity.. it would take a little imagination to do this without steel, but I guess it's possible. It's interesting to think how many times precision manufacturing methods have been rediscovered/reinvented over the years... It's becoming more and more evident that there was a very advanced civilization during the ice age, prior to 10k years ago. It's too bad the biggest cities are always on the coats, and all the coats from that time period are under the ocean. It's rare enough for a farmer to accidentally dig up a megalith, it's virtually impossible for any human to accidentally dig up a megalith that is under 50 feet of water.
@@daltanionwaves Perpendicularity is not terribly difficult to achieve as long as you have a rotating part and a good reference to the axis of rotation. Which leads me to believe that the techniques used to produce this example likely had a sort of accidental precision baked into the process.
I'd be far more impressed if we found 10 of these objects and they all measured exactly the same. Making things very round is easy. Making things perpendicular is easy. Making 10 things that are all the same is VERY HARD.
I have worked many years in precision machining and also as an inspector of other machinists work using similar measuring equipment. These guys are legit, know their shit, It seems to me, if anything, they held back their reactions for the sake of professional composure. It is truly something amazing!
Of the many thousands of such vases found, we've only ever really seen small groups of various shapes and sizes on display.
My questions:
Is every vase unique in its dimensions? ...or are there batches of vases that follow patterns? And if so, how large are the batches?
good questions. There are vases that seem very similar, and others that seem to have the same shape but vary in size. Part of a broader study would be identifying these things and trying to find out of there was a common design or even common component design (lug handles and the like).
@@UnchartedX Thanks for the reply. And the vid of course. Great work.
It's hard to make any definative, all inclusive argument until a large scale survey is conducted. Unfortunately there appears to be no cohesive well organized effort in the works.
Part of the problem appears to be age/antiquity and the fact so many examples of this work have been looted/lost/destroyed. The other problem be that existing examples are scattered all over the planet.
My first impressions were that there at least two types of stone work one formed like molded clay on a wheel and the other hand carved. Most puzzling are those with very small necks/orifices but carved out extensively inside.
It does seem to be one of those big problems here, as the mainstream dates almost all sites by pottery styles, types and design cover so why has so little work been done here! Should be books of data by now!! And just adds to the question of why so much push back!
I was trying to make a similar point to Ben earlier and i would like your thoughts. Finding two or more vases nearly identical would determine the level of precision of their work and of the possible lathe. The vase can have a perfect diameter at certain points( as long as it is held firmly ie in a lathe) but precision machining would be machining it to a predetermined diameter repeatedly . These guys and you would be checking for the precision of predetermined dimensions of machined parts? correct?
I'd like to see some electron microscopy of the tool marks. That would help to reverse engineer the manufacturing method. I think it could be done with a large bow lathe with a diamond cutting tool and a basic milling attachment made with wood and maybe ground stone bushings. Very interesting thought exercise.
I'm not sure but either they swapped the vase end in a chuck which gave the deviation or they had a finishing process that removes the tool marks.
Often on the lathe I'll sand the tool marks out with some emery paper, so without actually knowing how they did it, it would be moot to study that aspect.
Also there is no stones found that make a lathe so either they're hiding or they used iron 15,000 years ago that has since rusted away.
I had the same thought, a basic lathe and corundum or diamond cutting tool might be able to create the inside and outside profile of the vase to any desired thickness (in principle, not sure how it would be affected by inclusions). The challenging part is the lug handles, and this is the part where the measurements would be most useful. The jug could have been cut with the lugs as a constant shape around the full width of the jar, and then afterwards could have been ground down by other means everywhere except where the two remaining lug handles are. These are the ground-down portions and the surfaces between the lug handles are where the measurements of tolerances would be most telling, but these are not measured in the provided reports. I would like to see that variances in tolerances in the surfaces on the plane of the lug handles from the top of the lug to the bottom of the lug. Additionally, the variances in the placement of the drill holes in the lug handles is also not provided, but would be insightful as they would also require a third step in the manufacturing process.
Have you ever seen the lathes used to turn granite, even those used 100+ years ago? They are massive. Lathes rely on mass and rigidity for accuracy.
The biggest issue I see with a stone and wood lathe is wear. You’re going to be wearing the spindle out nearly as fast as you machine the stone. This will lead to increased inaccuracy as machining progresses.
Stone is also not a homogeneous material. It differs in density and hardness throughout. If your machine is not exceedingly rigid, this will cause tool deflection and runout that will become increasingly difficult to correct.
3D contouring is also exceptionally difficult on a manual machine, even today. I cringe at the thought of trying to replicate that vase, despite having significant advantages in tooling and machinery. Those handles are an absolute nightmare for a manual machinist given the tolerance.
We know they had the ability to work with metal like arsenic copper. The idea of a lathe made from it is not beyond the scope of reality. A spindle made from arsenic copper would be relatively durable, and a softer metal similar to the babbit bearings used a century ago could have been possible. Even Lignum Vitae would be suitable for bearings, as it has been used in ships as bearing for prop shafts. The question is, where are they? It doesn’t seem like a technology you would cast aside, unless it was an earlier civilization that used this technology and dynastic Egyptians didn’t actually make these objects. If the Egyptians found such machines and didn’t know how they operated, they could have repurposed the materials to create things they did understand.
Whatever was used to create these vessels, it had to be robust and repeatable. They made tens of thousands of these vessels.
The handles pose one of many issues. They are part of the piece not attached later. This leaves a large chunk of the turned surface unable to benefit from a simple setup. How would you turn down the aria between the handles?
@@KennyEaton603 Kenny post this comment in the main section so everyone can see you are making excellent points
Good to have a fellow aussie showing us this awesome content. Keep the videos coming Benny boy, love your work mate !
One of the most important things to remember this precision is on a vase, not a delicate part of a machine, it's a vase. Any civilization that has this precision for a vase must have massive technical abilities.
And thus we find epic constructions like the great pyramid :)
We dont build a vase to this spec today there is no reason to, we would however if a cheap/fast process happen to return that accuracy with no drawbacks just let it happen.
@@krusher74 you make a very important point, from a contemporary perspective. We would never make a container out of stone. It would require too much time and effort. Either:
1) the ancients who made it had technology that allowed them to work stone with the ease that we work ceramics
2) stone containers (think giant granite boxes found empty in the pyramids) and their properties are more important than we can comprehend yet
@@glennmorris25 2
@@bobfoster687 why do rich folks use silver spoons?
At a microscopic level, there should be tool marks on the exterior. It would be extremely useful to know what direction they run on the general surface, between the handles and on the handles. I didn't hear anything about this in the video.
We really should put the vase under a microscope!
Those kind of marks you're talking about wouldn't be that noticeable, because these are POLISHED surfaces. Thats why I mentioned they should be put under an electron microscope to see if the polishing is linear vs random hand polishing. This really should be looked at and is very important.
They could be old enough that any tool or polishing marks could have been erased from human interaction over time. They could be 10k years old.
The runout between the handles should be measured as this part of the body would have been unlikely to be lathed and would have been finished by hand.
I suspect there are the same tooling marks we would create with our current sanding and polishing equipment. Particularly striations from the edge of a buffing/polishing wheel. It would be possible to polish the entire piece with a right angle grinder using polishing discs. The rotation marks would be obvious.
I did stonemasonry of many types for over 20 years. We use the finest Masonary stone hammers ,chisels and diamond saws . Granite is very difficult to work with if you have to do any shaping at all.I do not think even the Finest mason could produce that.
Search for a channel called 'Infrafon' and a video on the channel that says 'how to "melt" stone'. Blew my mind going through his videos.
Well, I guess you would have lost your job in Ancient Egypt, or wherever the vases were made. It is safe to assume that ancient Egyptians were the best masons in world history.
@@BDE360 it’s never safe to assume anything
@@StratospheralNurse Yet life would be impossible if we did not made assumptions every day, and believed them to be safe (eg "I assume it is safe to cross the street"). But I agree those are only assumptions, hence prone to error
paleolithic societies had a culture of hand working stone for 460,000 years at this point. Maybe they were better at handworking stone than modern stonemasons. A child would probably start practicing making flint heads at 3 or 4 years old and would do it every day of his life
incredible! Ben as always thank you so much for your great content! You are a leader in this subject matter always been a huge fan from the start! Please don't slow down or stop we need you! Because of you and others like Graham and Randall made me start my own channel sharing the topic of lost ancient advanced technology! Legend mate. Thanks QEC
Love your channel and the content.
I’m a professional stone sculptor with experience sculpting granite. When looking at your previous videos, there are so many stones that look like they came out of a modern sculpture studio. Complex curves, broad flat surfaces, precision and no waves. Amazing.
Maybe there’s a room in one of the pyramids that’s full of angle grinders, diamond cutting wheels and polishing grits. I’m only half joking.
YOU make the most difficult object.
Make me one.
@@bimmjim It would be a epic video series for a modern stone sculptor/machinist to try to remake the schist disk from most advanced tools backwards in time to the ones proposed by egyptologists. Imagine like the click spring videos about the Antikythera mechanism.
How incredibly awesome it would be to find that room full of the tools? That would be a game changer.
@@bimmjim Haaaa, not with copper chisels, granite dust, water and elbow grease!
As those fellows said; precision lathes, precise milling, industrial diamonds, carbide tips and a mechanical engineer’s measuring tools would be necessary to get to standards of single digits/ thousand.
Man, I love this stuff.
I could make you one with small scale modern tools (angle grinder, diamond and carbide wheels and pads) but not to the precision of the video’s vase.
Have a great day bimmjim. ✌️
Maybe this is about to be blown wide open, at least to the extent it becomes excepted that crude tools are obviously NOT the explanation and we must keep digging.
(((double subscribed here--2 identities/2 devices ;-) )))
Utterly amazing! Holy moly. As an engineer I’m quite honestly shocked by these measurements. Especially the concentricity
The only thing that's eccentric is the utter idiot that runs the museum in cairo, one day he will be stuffed and mummified then we can get some new thinking into this incredible set of discoveries.
@Aqua Fyre Nobody can do that with STONE. Clay maybe, but not stone.
@Aqua Fyre this isn’t pottery my guy
@Aqua Fyre First off these aren't made from clay. As pointed out in the video these are made from granite and some even from dolerite, #9 out a level 10 diamond on the hardness level. Second, if you think one of these can be made like you say then let's see you make one. It has NEVER been done. They didn't have any such tools 5000 years ago. Bro, the fukin wheel was wasn't even invented yet let alone high precision machinery!
@Aqua Fyre The pottery pieces from Ancient Egypt are visibly less precise.
Saw you on JR show , great work , wishing you the success you deserve … keep at it we need guys like you ❤
I was a CNC Machinist at RR , making rotating parts in aero engines , and we always used flint chisels and pounding stones to make our parts from the super alloys we used? .
Well that's what the archaeologists would like to think?.
To make something out of granite like that , I have no understanding how it could be done , unless it was machined , you would need a rough and finish process to get it that close , because just the machining would knock it off its axis while taking the meat out , then it would need re-aligning for finishing , well we would today anyhow.
It's just seems all wrong , how did they do it?
Nobody would attempt to make these today , unless you lasered it.
The lug handles means a ridge was left , and then machined by a 5 axis milling machine?..WTF? , then that machining was done exactly to the form of the turned body? , I think whatever they used is something even today is Alien to us.
Just like to say aswell , the tolerances of this vase, is within one's we use for making turned aero engine parts today .
Just another fun little point , in UK we pronounce VASE as VARS , you all call it VAYZ , just a little bit of continental drift for you.
Can't believe you are coming to UK Ben!!
Another superb vid.
I think the takeaway from these findings is that we need to start building our air and spacecraft with pounding rocks and chisels. Obviously the superior tools
My conclusion as well. Carbide is expensive. But I have access to as much free granite as I could ever want in North Idaho. We just need to develop the tools, fixtures, and machines, and we'll be cranking out airplanes for mere peanuts.
hahaa 🙂 good one
😄👍👍
I wouldn't go that far. Good and well used CNC machines can yield even more accurate and precise results. That said, those things are expensive and not easy to operate. Therefore smashing diorite rocks at whatever you want to manufacture is probably still the way to go in most cases.
I was thinking that the folks who believe these items were made with endless pounding with diorite tools have rocks for brains. But that's just me. 🙂
Thank you so much for these videos mr,. Its feeding my hunger for knowledge
Awesome Ben, I have been watching your channel from the beginning. And want to say how amazing it has become over the years. Great production values, and you, sir. Have become an eloquent, well articulated presenter, interviewer, citizen scientist / field researcher. Kudos to you once again. Quality work. Say Hi to Randall and the crew. Peace
I'm an inspector in aerospace parts manufacturing. The numbers reported here are difficult enough for our machinists to achieve consistently with typical metallic materials on high-end, well maintained cnc and lathes. Machining stone to this precision! That's amazing.
The image you reference is a model and not the actual object, so it's difficult to judge what we're seeing. However, it does seem that it would 'simplify' the manufacture to cut the handles in after the lathe work rather than mill them in on a 3 axis cnc afterward. Still, if they were indeed cut in, the precision of their placement and the practically seamless joining is still pretty damned great work considering the medium. I totally missed that image at first viewing. Thanks.
Good question for Alex and Nick.
@not today The image referenced is a result of the scanning process and isn't representative of the physical object. The scanner they used can't physically fit inside the vase and thus they don't have a mesh of the interior surface. So the mesh is not manifold; only the exterior of the vase was scanned completely. What you're seeing isn't the interior of the vase, it's the exterior surface seen from behind. You can see a slight gold tint to that surface, which is how Fusion 360 denotes the 'back' of 2-dimensional polygons. It'd be really very interesting to see this done again with a scanner that could get inside to do the interior as well, you could compare the interior and exterior surfaces to check whether they're parallel with each other and the thickness of the material is consistent.
sure you are, this bullshit was debunked so many times, its not even funny anymore, it can be done easily, and imagine what can be achive if you have many generations of skilled stone workers, like Egypt had: /watch?v=dC3Z_DBnCp8
@not today At 40:55 you see the inside of the actual vase.
Unchartedx can we get a microscopic imagining of the vase outer surface and inner walls ... basically close up picture of the surface... to see the striations or tool makers ... grinding Marks or sander polish marks... to see if the marks are uniform, or swirls or circles or parallel etc
Good idea
Could be useful, but I doubt the surface has remainde unchanged for 5000 years. Original marks might not be visible anymore.
@@outandabout259 maybe not, but its interesting, there also needs to be other tests. Chemical tests, DNA tests, etc maybe we will find out for what they were used or if any chemicals were used to help create them.
@@outandabout259 True. But we don't know that, nor can we assume they've been altered. Nor can we assume they are original. All we can see is what we can see, which is what we do not have right now.
That's what is missing, a microscopic imaging of the surface. Mostly between the two handles. Because without the handles you could lathe it entirely(with carbide tipped tools) but there are handles...
Had a completely brain meltdown watching this. Thanks Guys
Love the content brother keep it up 👍
I do hope the data will be made available. I have 20 years of experience in working with point clouds and have a few tricks up my sleeve. 70k vertices is great, but dealing with 20+ million vertices is the rule, rather than the exception.
I would like to derive a vase profile and model (intended object) and provide a colored visualization of the deviation from the model. (Find the initial principle object axes using Eigendecomposition. Derive radial profile by finding point to axis distance. Iterate to optimize the axes, etc. There are plenty of fun things to do with this data to get more out of it. Import in Blender. Solidify on the inside. Send to 3d printer. Etc.)
Yea I really want the CAD file I have access to all the machines the mention and I know I could make an aluminum one. But the surface finish between the lug handles is a near impossible feature without polishing
Even those who will claim this vase is fake are going to have a hard time explaining how it was faked. Love your videos!
Exactly even a standard 5 axis mill or lathe with live tooling couldn't make this. CNC machines leave tooling marks, this would need a specialized machine for precision grinding, possibly a machine that grinds gears, which are not common.
Not fake but impossible.
I would love for the vases in the museums to be scanned but Lots of companies have 5 axis cnc stone carving. RUclips has videos and tons of stone vases for sale online. Occams Razor says it's a modern fake
This is not hard to fake at all. None of these men deny that this vase could be made today with modern technology, indeed that's foundational to their argument. They provide zero provenance for this vase other than "It looks predynastic so it is"
@@Vo_Siri Well, fake or not is a discussion on it's own for sure. But how was this even made, considering it's stone. I can't come up with any processes I know of, hence my comment.
I once duct taped my mini grinder to the tool mount of my dad's old 1950s South Bend Lathe to resurface the brake rotors on my 1973 GMC van. I was a cash broke teenager and had to improvise.
However I got real great smooth surfaces, and drove again that day.
I had to slow the lathe way down, and allow the grinder to do the work.
I can see that a person could hand spin a simple lathe that fast. Also if I took a mini grinder disc, and set it in a bearing, with a flex joint, and a 3/8 speed handle. A healthy kid could probably, spin it fast enough to grind stone.
The mechanisms required, are not that sophisticated. One could actually build them out of copper, or bronze if you wished.
As for the Artisanship I would not have the patience, but I have watched Lapidary guys, make crystal skulls, out of semi precious stone. The end product gave me a lot of respect, for guys with that talent.
On the other hand, I could see technology, from some ancient destroyed civilization. Used by primitive cultures, being responsible. Just find some proof.
Such a great channel. I have been a subscriber for a while and it's great to see you get more recognition for your work. I am a great admirer of yours. Thank you
Speaking as a scientist, great and worthy video Ben. I would encourage you all to publish this work as a paper in a quality peer reviewed scientific journal - the only doubts I could see being raised would be about the provenance / true age of the jar (I have no idea what proof/evidence could be supplied for that). Most true scientists do not have totally closed minds! We are (mostly) looking for explanations for our findings, that is how advances are made and paradigms changed...
I did get into the provenance topic in the video - and obviously the goal is to build up a body of work, even better if we can get access to museum artifacts to scan with more verified provenance. A paper is being discussed.
@@UnchartedX Let's hope these archaeologists or Egyptologist do not prevent this from happening. I certainly do not consider them scientists although archaeologists like to think they are.
@@SelfEvident and your comment here was of some value somehow?
@@SelfEvident how do you know you're a better scientist than him? On what evidence are you basing that? Your comment is hypocritical in at least 2 ways. First you did exactly what you told him not to do. Second you call your self a scientist whilst making assumptions not based on any fact.
@@UnchartedX I think a paper is a MUST, it is the obvious next step.
Having worked 15 years in metrology I can verify the difficulty of machining perpendicularity to 3 axis reliably, even with modern machines and excluding the materials and cutting tools actually invovled here. Very interesting!
@Kenneth Thomas with the file of their scan, you could order a couple dozen copies tomorrow np. Far more complicated pieces being carved daily
@@adventurecat8496 You missed the point, it's not about having the design, it's about being able to precicely replicate the design. I'm a proffesional instrumentation and controlls engineering tehcnician and I run my own 3D printing business ad I can tell you that it's not as simple as just having the file and the machine.
Getting trully accurate results with cnc machinine is absolutely possible, but it requires non-replicable work to be done for each individual block that's being milled.
This this is that close after god knows how many years of actual use and then how many thousands of years of weathering?
It must have been perfect when it was new. And that's the point. It's one thing for it to be perceptibly perfect, it's another thing for it to be measurably perfect. (I'm using the word perfect liberally)
@Alex Desilets let's order one from the best stone carving machine out there and see. Btw..if its actually real (and not made last year) I'm not sure why weathering is discussed? It looks like it was tossed around but chances are it would've been in a tomb buried.
If you had 1000 years and armies of cheap labourers to work it out - do you think you'd have some good insider knowledge accumulated, special tricks and well designed tools for how to do it?
@@TheAlastairBrown No one is saying that each vase took '1000 years' or that you can faultlessly do handwork to this degree of accuracy -- it is simply impossible to achieve the end result now shown to be EXACT WITHOUT non handwork 'manufacture' (note the double puns here , "no one".. and "manu-facture" means literally made by hand -manual 'labour' ) Re view the video and really listen to the results and what follows from them..
Im glad ur starting to get the recognition u deserve!
Well done gentlemen. Please keep up the good work we're loving this 💪
Thanks, Ben, for briefly covering the topic of lug handles in this video. Most other content providers show these amazing ancient urns & vases, but then ignore the handles as if they are no big deal. The fact that the handles are part of the body of the vessel, not somehow added afterward, and are essentially in "raised relief", if you will, proves that the vessels could not have been turned on a lathe - at least not any lathe that we can comprehend. As you point out, it took us well into the Industrial Age to even know what we are looking at with many ancient Egypt artifacts. The lug handles are proof of an ancient technology that is actually still beyond our present scientific understanding.
Excluding the obvious difficulties of working with stone and whatnot, it's certainly possible to turn a shape like this vase entirely on a lathe, but it would require a somewhat niche method for a lathe and specialized accessories to accomplish it. If I were trying to reproduce something like this, here's the process I'd use:
Start off by turning the entire thing and leaving a ring where the lugs are, in their final outside dimension. Then use something to stop the chuck from rotating freely, just a few adjustable stops on the chuck itself, in order to prevent the tool from cutting the lugs off as the piece rotated. The lathe would rotate until it got to where a lug was supposed to be and hit a stop, preventing the tool from cutting into a lug. Plunge the tool in the space between the lugs and turn the vase back and forth while cutting down to the final dimensions, continue on both sides until you've removed all of the ring except for the remaining lugs. The type of lathe you'd need would be the equivalent of a lathe/mill combo or a powered cutting tool on the tool holder (for lack of a better explanation, imagine clamping a dremel holding a bit to the tool post), and of course a set of adjustable stops for the chuck. As mentioned in the video, changing out tools or re-indexing the part introduces inaccuracy, so instead of turning the entire vase in a traditional sense with an unpowered tool, it could technically be cut with the same powered tool attached instead of swapping out for the two different operations. Which leads to the concept that maybe the lathe didn't need to be powered at all, but rotated slowly with the stationary powered tool doing all the high speed cutting. In today's world, I'm imagining something more analogous to a horizontal mill with a dividing head rather than a traditional lathe. It could certainly be done on a normal lathe, but it seems to me that a horizontal mill would make much more sense for this process.
@@Skinflaps_Meatslapper Obviously, as the lugs have such a "ring" profile, they have been turned like the rest of the vase. Your "first step" at least is right.
I don't understand why everybody wonders about the level of precision and symetry : it is unavoidably the case with all tuned objects... ?
@@florianartus3231 That's the problem, not a single archaeologist/Egyptologist or institution believes they were turned on a lathe. The only accepted theory is that they were hand carved because they found no evidence for lathes or machines in the archaeological record. This entire video is about using the vase measurements as proof that they were machine turned in some way, at the very least. We may not have found the machinery or tooling that they used to make these vases, but we have the vases, and by measuring their precision it becomes harder to sustain the theory that they were hand carved. If the vase measurements could provide unquestionable evidence that they were machine made in some way, it would change a whole lot of what historians assumed about Egypt.
This level of precision and symmetry is still not easy to come by, even with a lathe, and certainly not on stone. You can turn an object and still make wonky shapes that aren't symmetrical or precise in relation to each other. Runout, concentricity, etc. are all things that plague even experienced machinists. Trust me, I made plenty of wonky stuff starting out LOL
@@florianartus3231 That isn't true. There are many reasons why a turned part can be out-of-round. Play in the main spindle, unbalanced chuck, worn areas in the carriage ways, tool deflection, etc.
These parts often look "round" to the naked eye, but nothing is really perfectly round (or flat, or parallel, or perpendicular...) When we talk about "precision", what we really mean is "what is the error?" The measured error on these parts is really, really small, and that's hard to explain.
@@Skinflaps_Meatslapper your understanding and assessment is basically correct. The vase is cut on a rotating plate much like a potters wheel. There is no need for motorized rotation of the work piece because the cutting tool is powered. I used a similar setup to fabricate 20" granite bowls.
The cutting tool is essentially a dado blade turning in a vertical axis. This allows for the lugs to be cut on each end and shape the whole vase with the exception of the under cut below the vase rim. That is cut with a narrow blade cutting horizontally.
Ever since I first started watching your channel it's been my desire that exactly this type of measurement analysis of these stone vase artifacts should be done. I can't say how pleased I am that this has now been done on at least one such artifact. Well done to you all! And, may I say, it's great to see Christopher Dunne's offspring carrying on the family tradition.
Love your work Ben.👍
This is very impressive. Since you have the STL file for the object, did you consider 3-D printing the object with the most accurate printer available see if it can produce this equivalent accuracy? That would be an interesting experiment. Thank you for sharing this information.
I 3D printed it on a machine I built myself with custom firmware and I produced an object the exact dimensions of the STL provided
Thanks Ben, for this outstanding video! I am thrilled to experience this examination of a truly ancient stone vase. I have observed master machinists reproducing parts in nuclear power that could no longer be purchased. Much of the same techniques and equipment used, were used by them to complete their tasks. The structural items comprising the equipment used and the tensile strength and hardness, to work these metals was almost indescribable. Single simple misalignments could ruin an entire piece requiring the trashing of hundreds of hours or progress. I have often tried to visualize or imagine the bits used, to create these stone artifacts, the seatings, and fixtures. Using wood and stone braced with copper, pure balderdash! I can't even concieve of how these parts could be used to fashion the needed support equipment without the highest technogy. Sure, a gemstone of neccesary hardness can be fashioned into cutting tools, but what happens if a tool breaks? You can probably never hope to create a matching bit for the material being worked, at least not a tool having the needed prescision and surface fit and profile characteristics required to continue the carving. Excellent video and data!
Robert I'm the same as you as a machinist for over 40 years fpr General Electric and have a shop in the garage. I'm speechless concerning the skill level of the craftsman that made those 5000 year old artifacts.
We have a big cnc router that makes some amazing 3D stuff also in my shop... And still my capabilities are limited to machine stone.
just totally amazed. This video is outstanding!!! Very skilled individuals. Thank you for this its about time someone made this known.
Truly mindbending. One question though- why did you not measure or report on the consistency of thickness throughout the walls of the vase or the relative thickness/distance from the inside wall to the outside wall? While the metrics and accomplishments discussed seem near impossible, this thickness data would ice the cake. Either way, this is great stuff! Thank you!!!
Really interesting information. Thank you!
Who else makes vanguard information so easily digestible? This video was unbelievably informative, so cool to see research happening and really understand what's being discussed. Great job!
And how they were trying really hard to explain in such details to make it 100% clear and not just throw the conclusion out there like school or modern science does
@@carharttblade
Yeah science and school, who needs 'em when you've got this twaddle to guide you
@@andrewholdaway813 90% of things you had to learn in school you dont remember anymore, school is good for trying to make you less feral and guide you somewhere for the future but knowledge itself is useless
@@carharttblade
_knowledge itself is useless_
A comment that says so much about you fools.
@@carharttblade you're a dunce. Silica sand is harder than granite. It's plentiful in Egypt. Why would it require special technology? Also the great pyramid is limestone but it's filled with twigs and reeds in the joints. All date to the accepted chronology you weirdos
been following you for a few years! love this. super stoked to see people like yourself and Graham Hancock leading the way on this journey. I also have to say I have a lot of respect for you both in they way you're able to word your content. it comes off as humble and respectful while also doing the hard work of shaking loose some of the stigma surrounding these discussions. awesome!
I'm having a hard time following this video because they use imperial measures and those don't say anything to me. "Thousands of an inch..." is that a lot? Is that very close? No idea.
Same here. Being on Rogan should really put him on the map, escape velocity at hand.
Think something called Google can help you, above this video you will find a search box, or it’s about 1/16” above the top of this video on most smartphones
One thousandths of an inch is equivalent to 0.0254mm
@@Oldsmobile69 Pull a hair out of your scalp and cut it in half lengthwise. (in your imagination) That's conceptually 1/1000th inch.
Or imagine assembling some machine parts, putting a snug bearing shaft thru a gear say, connecting rod or main bearing, there's about 3/1000s of an inch clearance.
amazing topic and explanation, thanks!
Seeing the tops of the lug handles were within a half thou of each other in relation to the base makes me think the base was the manufacturing reference. Maybe Alex should have made the base the reference plane from which to derive all the measurement. I realize they needed the internal diameter to have the z reference but they could also have used an outside diameter to ascertain this. Imagine turning this vase out of wood on a lathe. You probably wouldn't chuck it up at the top- you'd chuck it at the base so you could turn the outside and inside without another setup.
Anyway, assuming they originally scanned the bottom of the vase at the time, they could still refactor all this data in Polyworks and see how everything measures up relative to the base.
the base is the obvious choice for a reference. leave it up to an engineer to make the top the reference point.
Nick, Adam and Alex explained the complicated stuff so freaking well. Getting one of these vases scanned is such a big step. You guys are doing amazing work!
Always pumped up when i see a new unchartedx video! since the early days, this content is THOROUGH. I hope archaeology as an entire field can become this thorough and logical someday soon.
Beauty doesn’t always require perfection...lets think about why this precision would be required for this object and maybe why they were all gathered up and hidden away
it would either because the use required it, or it was just an unintended result of whatever manufacturing process used... either way, problematic for the gate keepers of these objects...
❤this information!!! And Super excited to see C. Dunns' son Alex build open his father's findings and help prove his theories. Continue the very important work guys!!! Thank you!!!
Mind blowing achievements that defy our logic and understanding. Only fools would dismiss this, we need more of this. Thank you Ben!
- maybe YOUR logic and understanding......... it's the same old "I don't know how it can be done, so obviously, it can't be done".......
@@panchopuskas1 Straw man fallacy much?
The only logic way these things could be made is by knocking one stone against another.
@@RegulusOrigin obviously they can be done as we are looking at them, its the fact of how god knows how many years ago.
@@panchopuskas1 I have compassion for your lack of understanding of basic principles of manufacturing.
A massive nail in the sarcophagus of the official narrative has just been hammered. Thoth would be proud!!
This is stuff that almost brings tears to my eyes, just for the fact these data and measurments can't be waved-off as coincidental and is proof, again, of the use of high precision tools in a time we were, according to mainstream academia, supposed to knock two flintstones together to get a spark that will light a fire.
Glorious and precious investigative work has been done here and our (my) thanks for this can hardly be put into words. Cheerio Ben. Warm greetings from Belgium.
I hope more of these vases can be scanned and measured. I think you've shown that these had to be done by a precision tool, and it would be huge to see how many others hold the same precision. Keep up the good work!
Not by a precision tool but by a precision machine(s). It's hard to imagine a reasonable way to make these without steel.
Check out the video, " On the traces of an ancient civilization, what if we have been mistaken about our past"
It really goes into detail and analyzes a bunch of ancient sites and again find precision in structues and objects that are to perfect to be done by hand, it's just not possible.
Anyways, enjoy
Burps. Granite frisbees?
Never knew this channel existed till it was recommended by youtube, for once it worked out for the best, this is a great channel. I've watched a lot of Brien Forrester's stuff but this measuring of the vase is way out there, truly mind blown
Absolutely masterful analysis - affirming the myth of stone tools/copper chisels! May your team's work be taken up and further developed. Be safe when you walk the walk Ben :)
"Copper chisels" !!! 😆😆😆
Fully agree - Even considering the size of the many errors involved, a Devil's Advocate can reasonably claim it may be possible this vase was a classic case of a typical 'Friday Job' and proof-positive the apprenticeship guys rushed matters to get out of work early to get read for the most sacred of all religiously observed ceremonies, 'Beer night' . . . [ : )
And tens of thousands found just lying around. I'm amazed in the lack of interest, hopefully that is changing even as we speak.
copper chisels can chip away stone btw. You can research copper and see that it can be very hard when you don't remind it to be 99% pure... you saying the Egyptians were making pure copper tools? There is no proof of that.
@@Shadolife Imagine what we could learn if we could scan those broken artifacts!?.... or even the artifacts in the museums. We are just scratching the surface.
I always say I would happily, even lovingly, dust those artifacts at no cost to the museums. Sadly, none have ever accepted my offer.
Great show Ben, I hope to join you soon in an adventure. Thank you gentlemen for your time and expertise. Absolutely fascinating!
It is disgraceful and unseemly, the decades of dust built up in those display cases. If they can't even be bothered to clean the outside glass, they should just go ahead and sell artifacts they clearly have no interest in.
Incredible information. This must've taken a long time to put together. I really enjoy all the questions this evidence brings forth. Thanks for the effort to change thinking of the past.
I love this channel and the work Ben does. The whole thing fascinates me and I'm finding it so hard to understand why more people aren't on board with the theory. Ben is so knowledgeable and intelligent, yet I adore how he comes across as so humble and, dare I say, almost starstruck and bashful when he's talking to other experts.
Can we get a microscopic imagining of the vase outer surface and inner walls ... basically close up picture of the surface... to see the striations or tool makers ... grinding Marks or sander polish marks... if they are uniform, or swirls or circles or parallel etc
They'll have polished away tooling markings and polishing can be done by hand
@@SoulDelSol the polishing process itself would have left marks at the microscopic level
@@antoinepinnock1777 right but what would that really tell you
@@SoulDelSol easy ... the pattern can either be regular or irregular... circular or straight ... uniform or jagged... this will tell you if it was done by hand or machined or done by sand paper or sander... the depth and patterns can tell you about the hallmarks or signature of the methodology... or if chemical residue left on the surface was the real way it was all done ... etc
Great idea!
Ben, please push to have this analysis prepared in manuscript form and submitted for publication in a peer-reviewed journal. The scientific approach and results speak for themselves. Getting work such as this published helps to move the needle further in the desired direction.
can someone explain to me how they were made so we can figure out if they were as perfect as they intended them to be?
That clearly reveals that you haven’t seen how these values comoare to modern manufacturing practices.
Nothing is perfect everything has a error even today that’s why today we have tolerances, eg this needs to be 1220mm long +/- 1mm so if it’s 1219-1221mm then it’s considered to be accurate
As it’s in the tolerance range of the length
@@dejawoo322 the variances are comparable to modern day aerospace grade technology and the artifacts are at least 5,000 years old, still seems too impressive to be done by human hands
@@radezzientertainment501 the tolerances are within human capabilities. many examples of these in other fields. haptics science is a good resource if you are looking for info on it.
The only obvious question I can think of, 38 minutes in, after thinking of a viable machine process, is: can we find data from 2 or more instances of a particular vase type from the 14K or so, that are industrially identical? I think the case is very strong for a computerized/cnc lathe and 5 axis mill setup. The same repeatability needed to create one essentially perfect artifact would immediately lend itself to making many. With so many of these vases, one would think in order to have such accuracy at all in a given example, they almost certainly HAD to be mass produced. Creating the machinery needed to create one or even many one-offs makes absolutely no sense. As far as machine type, I wonder if a pulsed high power energy beam just on a lathe for the exterior features, handles included, could explain it, including the finish - that would be a bonus side effect. A stepperized lathe, or 5th axis, spins the original medium around and does the normal lathe thing, vaporized material as it passes. This would have to be a 3d focusing system in order to get consistant results. For the handle secion, you can pulse the beam on or off fast enough to cut between passes theoretically, with no tool to retract.
Awesome! Love the thought of scanning other artifacts.
You're on a slippery slope here, moving from investigative journalist to scientist, keep it up. I hope someone gets these guys to scan a dozen more vases and perform cross-examinations, this is getting more and more fascinating.
Must have been 'easy' for them, this level of precision isn't remotely required for a flower pot. lol
I love this. I have been crying out every time I see a vlog on old artefacts for someone to scan them. It is beyond obvious that these artifacts were made by an older and more advanced civilisation and we need more research of this type.
A far more important issue is how will you go about holding that vase in a lathe or machine chuck and grip it hard enough without shattering it???
especially the vase with 1 mm thick walls
I can't believe that I just sat here and watched an almost hour long video about a vase! And I cannot wait for more. Great content.
“It’s a beautiful stone jar from the 1st dynasty handmade by repeatedly hammering it with bowling ball sized diorite!” -Zahi Hawass 👍😳
What a crook biggest grave robber in Egypt
Completed by thousands of workers in 20 years time for each piece. Talk about someone who likes to hear his own voice, and no others.
ZH acts like someone who has been compromised. Like some powerful entity just flooded all his computers with CP and is holding it over his head. It's not national pride keeping him in line. It's darker than that.
To protect what exactly? Hard to say.
Lots of people hate the guy but I don't really buy that he's an arrogant dick. He acts more like a caged animal, or a hostage.
The analysis of the surface under 1000X microscope would be useful. Maybe a hint to the technology used could be found.
Yes. At some magnification there will be evidence of the toolpaths.
@@johnv341 if it was mechanical... not chemical, ultrasound, or other magic...
keep up the good work ben!! u are more important to this movement then i think tou even know.
I wonder if there are any pairs of these vases that could be compared to each other, or ones that are at different scales but exactly the same geometries? That would definitely be worth looking out for! Great video by the way!
it would be fun, but probably wouldnt lead to anything, as these vases were hand turned. but it would be great just for more proof of how cool the ancients were.
@@GhostScout42 That's a bold assumption you just made. Not even machinists and metrologists are confident enough to say how they were made or what process was used, but yet you're certain they were hand turned.
Not finding a single matching pair in hundreds or thousands of examples may imply that they didn't use some sort of mass produced process or template, they were all unique/bespoke creations.
this video just prove they were impossible hand turned
Exactly what i thought, u would think certain designs would be mass produced, very odd that every vase is a one off, it contradicts the hypothesis of being precisely machined.
@@seancunningham4254 It would certainly be more sensible for them to make identical vases, at least in the context of someone living today in an industrialized world. Making each piece unique and individually would be an inefficient process today, since templates and guides and other aids that take human inefficiencies out of the equation wouldn't be an option if they were all one-off creations. It's one of the reasons why a mass produced item is so much cheaper than a custom made item, even if they're otherwise identical, i.e., a swiss army knife that costs $30 might cost several hundred if you commissioned a knifemaker to build you an identical one out of a different steel.
I guess the other implication of not finding any matching vases is that perhaps they were mass produced, and hundreds or thousands of the same vase were made. That would mean we've only managed to find a tiny fraction of a percentage of what they made in total, even considering the fact that we've recovered thousands of them intact and tens of thousands of partial vases. Manufacturing on that level would indicate that their vase making was not only industrialized but also perfected and streamlined, something that you wouldn't be possible without an extensive use of machinery of some type. Of course, that's entirely speculation. perhaps wishful thinking even, because we have no basis to support that notion...not yet, at least.
I've recently found your channel and love all the content. Congrats on your speaking engagement, you deserve to be up there with the other titans of these studies.
it's just a shame he was called an "internet speculator" instead of researcher
Congratulations! This data is unbelievably helpful in finally moving this debate forward. I also follow several detractors who try and reproduce hard stone cuts and drill holes using 'primitive' methods. Although they are doing important experimental work, it is often difficult to watch their posts because they are so full of vitriol toward our historical reinterpretations. I have been unable to counter their arguments because I have not had access to actual data of this quality. I hope that you, Chris's son and others will continue to make similar scans, of other precision objects, so that a database, of this information, can be built. It can then be used as a standard against which the attempts of modern experimenters can be compared to finally settle this debate.
Cheers, my friend. Keep up the good fight!
yeah, those detractors totally don't have a bias there at all, do they? it's almost like they're willing to employ any method, even deception, to prove the alternative history arguments are wrong.
"Only .007" Parallel on the handles? Scrap it!"
As a former Machinist myself and professional Metrologist, I am absolutely certain every one of these vases we find were just the "scraps" from the ancient machine shop. Somehow they were preserved by chance, while the "good" ones have been lost to history.
Just to add context for non-machinists, when referring to some of these smaller measurements, that kind of inaccuracy can present itself when machining a piece and allowing it to get too hot when cutting. A 100F change in temperature can cause your part to grow several thou, and when you mistakenly cut the part to that final dimension while hot, it'll be several thou smaller when it cools back to room temp. So in a way, the tolerances here are so small that even temperature has to be accounted for when machining something out of metal. As for thermal expansion of stone, I have no hands on experience with machining it (cutting it?), but thermal expansion of granite is nearly as much as steel, which is half as much as aluminum. Just guessing here but based on these measurements I bet they took thermal expansion into consideration and made an effort to keep temperatures constant as well.
That's why you don't let your part (or stock) go +100 .... Herpa. Derp.
I'm so stoked.
I'm gonna save this for later so I can watch it semi horizontally with a likkle smoke and a few beers.
Fascinating! I’m a metrology guy. I’ve been programming a CMM for 20 years. And I’ve been working with a scanner for three. That data is amazing. Especially the parallelism on the side pieces. No idea how they accomplished it maybe a series of jigs. But no way those were created with hand tools.
I initially thought they did it by straightening their arm out front and sticking their thumb out, while closing one eye.
I would like to know how the handles were made.
@@TXLorenzo one at a time
assuming they had carbide or diamond tools they would have saws and files to cut the handles. if you understood machining and tooling everything can be done with hand tools. just takes a lot longer. before lathes and mills everything was done with hand tools.
Why don't you show us how it was done down to one thousands of an inch?
this might be one of the most important archeological discoveries of our age
except we don't even know if it's genuine. How can you just flippantly dismiss provenance? Don't you understand how widespread the counterfeited forgeries are??? There is a reason museums are forced to ignore unprovenance artifacts because this if a HUGE issue with Egyptian artifacts particularly. Explain to me how "it just looks pre-dynastic" is enough to establish it's age?
The mix of physical gauge and scan measurements in the video is great!
New fan and member...astounding analysis research! You, Graham and Randall have opened my eyes to a new perspective that fills in so many gaps in the stories and 'official narrative' we've been taught since grammar school. You have my full support!
400k! Congrats!
This highly sophisticated analysis is not just a step toward proofing of the advanced civilization & debunking the chisel and rocks theory, it is a rocket to the moon kind of step..
Salute to you and to your respected colleagues for this very important discovery
yessirrrr
No, sorry, you're falling into the same trap we were all baited. Check out the work of Russian archeologists replicating many of these "impossible" feats using copper chisels and rocks. This bubble needs some bursting.
@@jeffreymcneal1507 Name or link?
uh-hu, so how come they didn't bother to employ this precision for the handles then? Its clear to the naked eye that the drilled holes are skewed.
please stop being so gullible
Reading the comments and speaking to friends in the machining world and hearing their opinions on these video's, on how they are all totally mind blown adds such incredible weight to it all. MORE, MORE, MORE!
yessirrrrrr
To make these without steel is hard to imagine. But they for sure used methods or processes that we redeveloped/reinvented after the 1500s. It's not outside the realm of possibility, but it's 100% not possible with hand tools. Some kind of machines or fixtures would have been used. There was definitely a whole industry worth of knowledge in these things, and probably more than one specialized tradesman. It's unlikely a single person made the cutting tools and also fabricated the products. And the level of precision is so far beyond what would be functionality needed, they were clearly making these to be perfect intentionally for the sake of making them perfect. Maybe for aesthetic reasons.. it's kind of like why would you use a building block that is 100 tons, when you already knew that a 10 ton block was way overkill and would last 10 millennia without issue. It's hard to make sense of. We simply would not spend 20,000 man hours on something that would be overkill with 1,000 hours. How would you pay those people? Feed those people? How would you justify the expense to everyone else working to support them? At the very least, their cultural values were vastly superior. We could never do things the way they did today, because it would not make sense to us. I can understand why egyptologists would rather not even ask these questions. Because these things are simply out of place and out of time. The most logical explanation as to how they could have made these things is that they already had the industry and infrastructure in place to make them. Which could only be the case if there are cities not dissimilar to Rome buried 10 feet below the ground, 100 feet under the ocean. Humans always build our biggest cities on coastlines because of the obvious resource benefits, and the coastlines from the ice age are currently under the ocean. Not saying that's the case, but that would at least make sense, so it's easier to just not ask at all. Especially if it means you get to keep your job.
That's if it's actually old and not a fake vase recently made for the sole purpose of selling it for 100x it's real worth to foreign collector, it has no provenance and has been dated by 'it looks pre-dynastic, therefore it is 4000+ years old'
In fact not unlike the 'ancient crystal skulls' in various museums that were actually made in Germany in the 19th century.
They should really allow independent researchers who don't have a massive conflict of interest (like Ben, Dunn's son, etc.) to come and double-check these measurements before we all start getting ahead of ourselves. That's how real science operates.
@@M1ggins all of the UnchartedX fans still believe the crystal skulls are genuine. Remember, they don't care about the people fact-checking these claims when it has to do with Egypt so why should it be any different with the crystal skulls? They just put their fingers in their ears and go "la-la--la-la" until the scary fact-checkers go away, lol
As about a journeyman level of aerospace machinists I find that the top of the handles matching the base by sub .001 of an inch after a minimum of 5,000 years just wild. Especially since the wear surface is the base. This also tells me that probably the lugs/handles were a second setup feature.
Frankly I would be very proud of a part/tool I made had those numbers after thousands of years.
I'm the guy in the shop who is a fabricator. Without a five axis, I have no clue how to remove the material between the lugs. I have hand ground corners with a hand grindger for welding that have a reflective surface that looks machined. I have also faceted gem stones. I would be curios to the precision of the area along the radius between them. It might be a clue to the manufacturing.
Hmmm, as a machinist I have a questions for you...
If you have a grade "AAA" granite surface plate that you put away for 5000 years do you think it would wear away by a appreciable amount?
You could turn a cylinder on a lathe and be parallel top & bottom, I dare say that you could even do it on a pottery wheel.
A cylinder with the profile of the handles done by lathe techniques, then with a milling attachment on the lathe to cut the non handle parts in between.
I did notice that they did not compare the vertical parts of the handles relative to each other.
I'm a fabricator for a multinational corporation - I don't get your 'brag' about using a hand grinder. Fine grit sandpaper wheels for a grinder give polished surfaces in seconds with no effort or skill. It has absolutely no relevance.
This brought such a huge smile to my face. Thank you all so much and I cannot wait to see what the future brings!
Yes! I've been waiting on this one for a while. Great work and thank you for pushing the science in this field for the sake of uncovering our true history.
Hey Ben I'm not sure if it's mentioned in this video, but the lapis lazuli artifact that you often talk about looks like a stone version of a tool that many South American tribes use for snorting hallucinogenic substances. It even has a scoop at the end, just like theirs. I didn't know if anyone had ever posited that to you but I figured I'd throw it our there. Loved the JRE appearance! Right on brother. Hope all is well.
Being in this field, I am amazed at the precision and workmanship! We make the same using machinery now as well!
Came across you some time back. I can say thank you enough for bringing steadfast attention to this subject. I hope that this trend not only continues but grows. There are a great many mysteries here that could hold wealth of knowledge lost or forgotten that could benefit the world today. It is enough to know that we don't know everything and we should never stop seeking to understand.
So damn interesting man! Thank you! Keep it up!
Keep up this good work for evidence with new idea technology 👍