What You Should Know About Hookless Wheels
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 4 июл 2024
- what are Hookless bicycle wheels? is it safe and why are all the big manufacturers making them? thanks to Dov from www.parcours.cc/ for his continued support of this channel and Two26 Photography for athlete footage.
Support the channel, check out my streetwear brand here - wearethewildones.co.uk/collec...
I've also set up a Patreon if you'd like to help support the channel for less than the price of a greggs espresso & vegan sausage roll: / franciscade
the main GoPro mount i use: www.prostandard.com/products/...
the Low Down Axle mount i use: www.nut-r.co.uk/fc
the GoPro I use: prf.hn/l/ryjmwQn
Really small action camera: www.insta360.com/sal/go_2?ins...
360 action camera: www.insta360.com/sal/one_x2?i...
25% off your first purchase of STYRKR Carbs and Gels: bit.ly/36WrFyn use code: FCADE25
/ francis_cade
/ francisccade
LUTs - You can buy my LUT for $4 (or above) by becoming a supporter on Patreon here: / franciscade
MUSIC - I used Musicbed, use the same music for your videoswith my affiliate link here: share.mscbd.fm/Francisccade
GT85 (The stuff I use to clean & maintain my bikes): bit.ly/2RZCAji
The following companies (that you'll see in my content) support me either financially or with free stuff, so huge thanks to these guys for helping the channel thrive:
Attacus Cycling,
SCOTT,
MET Helmets,
Shimano,
fidlock,
Hutchinson Tyres
Sungod
Tailfin
GT85
Garmin
Parcours Wheels
#cycling #bikes #bicycle 
Спорт
At least he was honest. Brands are pushing hookless because it's cheaper for them and easier to manufacture, the extra impact strength argument is just what they've decided to push as the benefit to the consumer when in reality it was a non-issue to begin with. I won't be going hookless anytime soon unless hooked rims die out altogether. There are no real world benefits, just extra caveats and drawbacks.
Well, zipp was so fair and reduced the price of the firecrest models by quite a bit. But it is surely arguable if they passed all savings to the customer...
@@Xarx42 and all of the problems that hookless brings along with it
I'm kinda starting to miss having top-end tires cost $50, because now with all the pfaff and marketing and "standards" that tire manufacturers are inventing/modifying/meeting, there's twenty new acronyms to accompany the new hookless beadless rubberless vulcanized super-aero ultrawide Z-lock bubblegum tire tech printed on the sidewall of your $100 tires. All so that rim manufacturers, primarily, can save money on manufacturing. Leaves me with a bit of a sour taste in my mouth.
100% just bought a pair of gp5000 s tr for $150 shipped.
Plot twist, in the US even if you can even find stock, it costs $100 each.
Had to find it in EU store for about $60 each with $20-30 shipping which was still cheaper 🤦🏽🤦🏽🤦🏽
That's what she said
I appreciate the clarity of Dov's explanations - he's an accessible egghead.
I think you've just found my new Twitter bio line!
@@ParcoursDov haha 😉 that one's no charge
Here's what I know, using hookless rims involves more risks. I'm out there on the roads taking risks mixing it up with cars and many other road hazards so I prefer to limit risks as much as I can. I will never own hookless wheels.
Check out a recent NerdAlert pod on this topic. I have been in the bike business for 20 + plus years and the crux of the matter here is that the manufacturers of wheels and tires do not talk to each other in order to develop standards for manufacturing tolerances. They are all doing what works for them only and we actually need the ETRTO - they are doing the heavy lifting and keeping these folks talking. Communication + safety. Great vid Francis as usual, Dov knows his stuff. Cheers.
Largely true, although worth remembering that the ETRTO membership and committees are made up of representatives from both rim and tyre manufacturers. So there is plenty of dialogue, just not a huge amount of agreement just yet. We are getting there though, just in my own personal opinion not quite there yet when it comes to an all-in switch to road hookless.
A great video Francis. The simple but clear as anything explanations from Dov was a treat. Thanks. More of this please.
Looking into going tubeless. Despite the excellent reviews was incredibly hesitant about Zipp and it’s hookless. Glad Roval kept their new wheels hooked.
Thank you Cade! We learn a lot and you ask the good question!
I have the hookless SLR1 and use inner tubes with tubeless ready Corsa. They are nearly ~impossible~ to get on the wheel but once I do, I never have any issues. I even had a slow leak once that I didn’t realize for a while and the tire never rolled off. That said, I’ll go to hooked rims the next time I buy wheels simply so I don’t have to worry about a failure. Trying to stay alive ✌️
I built up a new road bike last summer it was incredibly difficult to find a clear explanation of how/what hookless is-and this was 2021! So thanks to you and Dov. FWIW I think the cost and durability benefits matter for road as well as gravel. My hookless ENVE 45s were an affordable-ish (???? yes for hand-built carbon) $1600 US and come with excellent warranty/damage protection. Running them with ENVE's own 27mm tires at around 65 psi.
Good info. Thanks enjoy your channel and mates.
probably the best, most concise vid I've seen on the subject. For my mntn and cx bikes, hookless is just fine. for my road bikes, it'll be hooks for quite a while.
Thanks for this video explaining it all!
Nailed it: "the technology isn't here yet"
Standards and tire design are in their infancy in terms of hookless. I mean, you can still find people in forums saying their hookless tires popped off. I'm staying with hooked wheels for the moment.
Cheers Francis I had wondered what it was all about. 👍
First! Great informative video for those that don't know. Thankfully, many tyres now state hookless or not
Thanks for the great video!
Good stuff.... I have always rolled with hooked for now on the road but my guess is in a few years that will be harder to do....very much like the rim vs disc brakes
The soft disposable tool is sand, that is recycled used time and time again ( from an ex ally foundry engineer )
@@garybrown5769 But I presume some kind of foam is used for a carbon rim?
I like tubes, I flat every 5000kms or something like that, I don't need nor want the hassle of tubeless and having to deal with ectoplasm sprayed up my arse.
I have some dt swiss crc 1400 spline hookless carbon cross/gravel wheels and they very good. No problems at all...
great video - thanks
One thing many overlooks: don't install and uninstall your tubeless tyres on hookless rims multiple times. This weakens the bead of the tyre and eventually you might have the tyre popping out of your rim.
Once installed, just use it. Unless it is really really necessary to remove it, leave it on the rim.
Very informative……excellent 👌🏾
Think the problem is the rims are ahead of the tier manufacturers and yet again this leaves the consumer in no man's land as they catch up. As it stands for now i wouldn't touch hookless as there are very little options regarding tiers, But it's getting better. Pretty much the same reason I won't touch tubless for now. the sealant just isn't good for enough for the road and is too messy and a hassle to live with. That's my thoughts and thinking out loud
My Canyon Aeroad came with DT Swiss that are hooked so I will run them tubeless. I also bought some Winspace wheels that are hooked as well so those will be tubeless too. I wish I would have seen this video sooner because Parcours wheels look great!
I run Goodyear Eagles on my Zipp 303 hookless wheels and they were sooooo easy to set up. Three quick jabs with the track pump and they seat first time every time. 60 psi pressure works well for me and gives a super comfortable grippy ride. I definitely think hookless is the way to go. Oh, by the way - great content 👍
All you need to know about hookless is what he mentions as the no. 1 argument for using this type of "technology": i.e. It's cheaper to manufacture. Period. Then comes the part of making the user believe it's actually better for them. And that, my friends, is the way the bike industry works its magic.
One thing you might want to consider in your test is time… Tyres stretch over time. Other people have tested hookless rims and they found that if left over night, tyres will not unseat at much lower pressures than you found in your test.
Correct, looks like cycling weekly did some tests and at 100psi the tyre blew off after 10 minutes
“we used a cat flap” 😂 that is how all science experimenta should start. some of the wider gravel rims do have different effective width and diameter with the same rim hookless and hooked, so I would be surprised if there is not an aero difference??? certainly worth considering if you want to fit wider(est) tyres though!
Scientifical (love the new word FC!) Especially with a 180 psi blow out. Very canny experiment!
What an " explosive" way to end the week! Great video , cheers 🍻 for the weekend 👍
Would you talk about _which particular tires perform best_ with hookless rims? ... perhaps not with Dov, who has to stay neutral as a wheel manufacturer, but maybe in collab w/ Backyard Nic.
I have a mix of about a dozen wheelsets, and had great luck with Schwable, Pirelli, Tufo , and WTB tires, both in gravel and road which often will pumpIt’s been a mixed bag with Rene Herse, Soma, and Panaracer tires.
I have also mounted a set of the new GP5000tr tires on a set of zips 303s and they also held air and seated without sealant.
@@Thomas-fy9yc thanks for your feedback!
Too many makers don’t follow the ETRTO spec, for tires or rims. Mavic keeps to the spec, but it’s hit or miss with many makers, and even if you get one combination to work, you can’t count on it to work with other models from the same maker, or with next year’s version. Makers and reviewers need to publish the actual dimensions, and until they do, it’s just up to experimentation, which is unsafe.
Great video! Interesting to point out that all other wheel/tire systems (plane, car, etc.) are hookless. While it’s cheaper to manufacture, it wouldn’t be in use in the pro peloton if it wasn’t safe. UAE has a deal with ENVE and they could go with any mfg that they choose. I think people overstate the risk of a blow-out. In reality wearing worn out tires, or those with little knicks and cuts is much more likely to cause you to flat than it blowing off the rim. Check your equipment before any high speed descents and replace parts that are worn. Prior to tubeless many (incl all pros) were riding tubular, which could literally roll off the rim at high speed. Perhaps the tech is still evolving, but it wouldn’t be in the market if it wasn’t safe.
Couple counterpoints:
Plane, car, and motorcycle tires have *way* more structure and material than a bicycle tire. You don't see folding car tires. Additionally, I've changed a number of motorcycle tires and minimum you need a couple long steel tire irons to get them on/off. Even with a manual tire "machine", you're using a meter-long bar and quite a bit of force to get the tire stretched over the rim. Honestly, I'm really wary of manufacturers making that comparison.
As for the pro peleton, they're concerned with speed and speed only. Comparing tires that get changed out probably daily and checked by a pro mechanic isn't necessarily what I want for my bike if it's not reliable a longer timelines.
That being said, I don't have an issue with hookless rims. Time will tell if they work out or if they're one of those things that disappear.
The hookless Enve SES 4.5ARs I have on one bike work fine for me. I run 32mm Gravelking slicks at 45-50 psi and have never flatted the setup. 70+ psi would be way, way too high for this setup. I've hit the rims pretty hard and not had an issue. They're also one of the easier rims I've used to mount tires on and get the beads seated. Enve publishes a fairly long list of tires they recommend for the rims.
Nice. Been using the Foundation 45’s for about 2 years now with goodyear f1 32’s, wtb exposure 30’s, and recently the enve ses 31 and can’t believe how good they all feel at 48psi front 50 rear. I’m a hefty 200lbs and have full confidence riding hookless down fast descents and leaning hard into corners. Really want to upgrade to the 4.5’s for the wider internal. What a time to be alive!
Now being a rim brake cyclist I guess hookless is a no go.
I have been thinking more about hookless and I think referencing car and motorcycles use them is comparing apples to oranges. Car tires take different cornering forces than a bike or motorcycle. Car tires need heavy equipment to mount since the sidewall is tons stiffer to hold to the rim. Motorcycles may have some same corning forces but again heavy equipment to mount and sidewall is tons stiffer to hold the bead to the rim. To top it off both car and motorcycle tires also don't use any sealant so there is that factor also (maybe sealant can affect the bead to rim interface). Most car tires and motorcycle tires are also lower pressure (truck tires not so much....but those have super thick sidewalls and super heavy gear to mount). I have never ridden hookless but just those general logic thoughts....nothing tested by me creates some pause using hookless on a road bike.
car and motorbike tyres are also way, way heavier and more material to support the hookless structure
Has anyone found statistically which brands of tires cause problems?
the rims can be measured to the nearest cent when they come out of the mold and there is a precise common standard to be respected.
for tyres, on the contrary, there is no standard yet, the hookless coupling tolerance is the most important aspect to avoid these dangers ( second one 80s vintage pressures at 8 atm)
a well-known Italian cotton rubber declared hl compatible goes on a rim with just one hand, it will clearly come off with the same ease or worse after use, same for some continental years 2020-21 now modified and within very tight, suitable tolerances.
circumferences of tyre rings were measured with differences of up to 1.5 cm in total! how can we talk about a system that should be abandoned without a coupling rule?
as long as tire manufacturers have differences beyond the conceivable, system safety will not be proposed.
15 years ago the same MTB route, now standardized although without the push of common rules.
this is a good video ❤
I’ll stick with hooked rims, thank you!
I work in a bike shop and it’s genuinely nuts how many people run over 100psi in their road tyres. I couldn’t recommend anyone who rides road buy hookless because you literally can’t drill into them enough DO NOT GO ABOVE 72psi!! They come back in fornanservice and there it is.. 85-100psi in new 25mm tyres they bought online. Drives me absolutely insane!
I have been using hookless on road and I find putting the tires really easy. Great system for the bike
Till u get a flat that the sealant cant fill and u walk home. Hookless is a bad design and has no benefits for the end user.
@@thedronescene7474 you just put tube in?
@@thedronescene7474 I have spare tube in case the sealant didn’t seal. The best part for hookless I don’t even need tool to put back the tires
@@user-nu5fx6en9hSo basically you are limiting yourself with pressure you can use, tires you can use and weight you can gain, plus hoping manufacturer didnt make QC mistake so your tire wont blow off, in exchange you dont have to use 3 dollar tool once in half a year, that sounds so worth man.
@@thedronescene7474dynaplug or stans dart
If the walls are strong enough, hookless is ingeniously safer. However, this means putting on more material than you remove. Thus wheels will be heavier, not lighter.
This is such a simple topic to unpack. Consider tubless for a low pressure/high volume applicaiton (MTB), do NOT consider tuebless for a high pressure/low volume application (ROAD). It's that simple. A pot hole, rock, whatever from normal riding can instantly grenade the "air tight" seal of your high pressure tire and put the rider at a MAJOR safety risk. It's just unnecessary for road given the risk, never mind the annoyance of upkeep and being caught in the middle of nowhere with an equipment design failure.
I have ZIPP 303s hook less. I'm still slow even without that little hook bit
I once had a Rene Herse tire blow off a Hunt hookless rim while running just 40 PSI. However, I think that was a case of user error. Other than that one time, I’ve never had an issue with hookless rims.
Hunt doesn't offer a "true" hookless rim. They still market their rims w/ their "H-Lock" design, which has a beaded hook but with raised inner shoulders for tubeless tire seating.
on a road bike i would glue the side walls, or make a tubular wheel tubeless with the glue
I have the enve hookless tires on some hifi hookless wheels, and even when I had a leaky valve and could feel the tire squirming on every turn with less than 20psi the tire stayed on the rim and never burped
Hifi wheels I want a set.
@@richardpolidore1702I got lucky on ebay- great wheels!
I'm on GIANTS SLR2 hooks and finding tyres for sale which Giant says are tested and approved is very difficult. So far that's the only issue I've had running tubeless as a 96Kg rider.
I am also 96kg rider on SLR2 hookless rims, and I bought Schwalbe Pro One. They are tested by Giant. There was no problem finding them for sale🙂
Tr version of the gp5000 compatible now as well with the SLR2
A friend broke his femur when a tire blew off his hookless rim.
Zipp’s website goes on about how wonderful hookless rims are, it’s all BS. The actual weight and aero benefits are trivial; the real gain is solely that they’re cheaper to manufacture. Now if Zipp cut the price of their wheels significantly I’d be a lot more impressed…. Manufacturing cost-cutting is hardly new, but at least in this case we can see it and vote against it with our wallets. Hookless rims are a bad idea for road wheels.
I can remember using hookless rims in the early 1970's and having tyres blow off the rims and it was very dangerous, then Mavic introduced the Module E hooked rim in 1975, it was a game changer and so much safer at high pressures. Seems crazy to go back in time just so manufacturers can save money and risk taking your face off on the road. Not something i'll be doing for sure.
Also electric cars existed already on the 20s and that does not mean that electric is the wrong way for cars. Maybe hookless has found its way in a safe manner
Tubular technology is the best, it seems.
Hi Francis,
The "expert" missed the key factor how hookless and tubeless stay on the rim. It is the design of the tyre (why you can't use normal tyres on tubeless).
The tyres have threads running around the tyre that are unstretchable, therefore the tyre can't expand to left over the rim. This is why modern tubeless rims have a well so you can get the other side on as they don't stretch.
Remember most other tyre systems that use hookless have a much lower pressures and work fine. Why hookless is limited to 72psi.
Yes i remember the video, but remember most systems are usually designed with a big failure safety factor. Lifting equipment is 10 times and tyres most probably more than two times. This is normal.
Should you buy hooless? i would advise no, for higher pressures, they are still trying to get tubeless right and these have been out for over a decade. I suggest to watch and wait at this point in time.
All of the potential complications make me feel it’s truly better to stick to cheaper, older technology I can actually afford, instead of lusting after the newest thing
@@RicardoRocha-lg1xo when they drool about fully integrated stuff, i think about how now changing a cable housing costs a visit to the shop
@@core2zero I don’t really do much of my own wrenching, and I still find fully integrated cockpits a serious nuisance. Sometimes I do change stems or handlebars or simply move them a few mm… what a skilled mechanic could do in 20 minutes (more like 50 for me)can now take several hours and would be an impossible task with my skills and tools. Nah, I’ll pass. I’m even seriously considering switching from SRAM hydros to Paul Klampers…
@@RicardoRocha-lg1xo i do all my wrenching and at this point, im the family mechanic, gladly, all of that is cheap bikes and components so i don't ever have to deal with "modern" stuff, it will be truly bad if any of those annoying trends trickle to the cheap range, imagine a $300 bike that needs $50 mechanic visit for basic stuff
@@core2zero sounds like the clinic that was about to charge me 14 bucks to inject me the medicine my doc prescribed, which cost only 11 bucks. No thanks, I’ll take my money and my butt (literally) somewhere else hahaha…
Add to that the ever increasing costs of EVERYTHING. I just found out the frameset I’ve been dreaming off just went up 22%. Nothing new, same model, same design, same materials, just a different year and economy….
Holy Smokes, I Totally Remember When You Guys Tested The Blow Off And It Scared The Crap Out Of Me When That Wheel Finally Exploded - I Remember Laughing Out Load Over The Aero Helmet And The Glasses Took The Cake - Seems Like So Long Ago - Also, Who Was The Female Rider In This Particular Video? How Is Chris Feeling/Recovering? Tell Daisy We All Say YO
Cheers
Why do you type like this?
One thing that was not mentioned is that tyre sealant such as Stans states that the tyre should not be inflated above 45psi. Not sure what other brands state but worth checking.
One thing that continually bugs me about the arguments for the hookless setup being "it's already used on cars, motorcycles, etc" so it's good for bikes is the sealant. When does a large hookless rim vehicle such as a car or truck use sealant -- especially right from the start. Also, take a look at the installation process for one of these tires on a vehicle, nobody is doing it with hand tools -- big industrial machinery takes over here.
Sure it blew at 180 PSI just sitting there. What about as it's being flexed by the road surface variations, cornering, etc.?
I run 180 psi on my tubular system :)
But is potentially too high pressure really the only problem? They can equally be put off by lateral force (on any road turn), especially at low pressure. As if the pain of maintaining a tubeless setup was not enough already, they have found a way to than make it also unsafe.
I had too much pressure in my tire and blew it off my hookless rim while braking going downhill at 40mph. I think the braking heated it up and put enough pressure to push it over the edge. User error, but it wasn't much fun. Make sure to stay within your wheel and tire pressure guidelines, and don't rely on the pressure shown on your pump!
Then why is there a pressure gauge on the pump to start with? How do you check pressure if not that way?
@@pierrex3226 old pump. Wasn’t accurate. I still pumped it to the limit.
@@emtee52Still it should not blow off there needs to be safety factor for such critical components.
I'll wait for this all to get sorted before I stop using tubes.
w/ hooked tubeless wheels and tubeless tires, road tubless set up at normal pressures (80-100) has been doable for a while, perfectly safe. Hookless at road pressures is still not there for me. Unless you're running 32mm at 60psi....which I'll never do.
Maybe you won't pump the wheel to that high of pressure. But things change when you leave your bike on the sun for prolonged time. My neighbour bought a bike, pumped the wheels for 3 bars in the morning (21 °C), and left it on the shade. As the day passed the shade went away, and the sun started to shine on that bike. At noon after 3-4 hours in the sun (32 °C) the wheels just exploded. 26x2 MTB wheels with inner tubes. The clinchers survived the ordeal, but both inner splitted almost quarter of their circumference. One of the clinchers fell off from the rim (hooked).
I think there is at least one rule you always should think of: pump your wheels in the hottest time of the day. Never at the coldest. Maybe you don't have this problem in the UK, but in continental Europe, especially in the Mediterranean and Eastern Europe we have some serious differences in temperature throughout the day. And in summer it is made even worse by the burning sunshine. Sometimes I can feel massive differences in the handling of my bike between going to work and going home. And it is not a joke.
3 bar, in an MTB tyre - WTF?
I've been tubeless on MTB's for over 15 years now, run 1 bar.
That's an interesting scenario, but in all honesty it's not one to lose too much sleep over. Gay-Lussac's law (one of the gas laws) states that pressure is proportional to temperature. However temperature is absolute (i.e. based to absolute zero or -273C), so in your example it will have increased from 294K to 305K or less than 4%. A 4% increase in pressure is unlikely to cause a blow off in itself so perhaps something else was at work too?
Of course, if the bike was in direct sunlight it's likely it went above 32C, but to get to even a 10% increase in pressure, you'd need to hit over 50C!
@@br5380 You know the problem is that you think everybody is using the newest technology and want to be a competitive racer. Where I live most of the people buy MTB-like bikes for commuting. And won't spend $1-2k worth of money on them. Basic models, tubed wheels. And there are a shitton of 1990s MTBs around. They use those bikes in tarmac mainly, so they pump it to higher pressures (there are some people go to 4 bars with their MTB wheels). Most of them never even go to a dirt road with those bikes.
@@ParcoursDov Well, the rubber is black. In direct sunlight it can easily heat up to the point you can't even touch it. That means 60-70 °C at least. Maybe it is interesting to you, but not an uncommon thing in reality. Those wheels knows the laws of physics much better than any one of us. And they obey them, even if they defy some written law with it. (One hungarian weapons designer said when his perfectly engineered and manufactured prototype pistol exploded: "Well, the pistol knows the physics better than us!") It is nice to calculate everything, but when those perfectly designed, calculated contraptions used for the first time, almost always fail.
There's always other things at work too. This is the difference between a laboratory and reality. And this is why calculations must be viewed as baselines, not carved in stone facts. I see in daily work how engineers always fuck up even the simpest things. Sometimes they should get up from their comfy chairs and computers/calculations, and go into the wild of the real world.
as a 100KG road racer I hate that ENVE and ZIPP have now moved to hookless. I wish they would offer a hooked for an increased price point.
On balance, tubulars are superior to tubeless and clinchers They can be run a wide range of pressures that clinchers or tubeless cannot. There is zero risk of them ever blowing off the rim and causing a crash. They can be run with sealant in the inner tube. They have a cheap and easy to make rim profile that does not require unsupported flanges that necessitate disc brakes, etc. Their rolling resistance is within 1 or 2 watts of the best tubeless tire, etc. The only meaningful disadvantages are messing with glue and the more important fact that there is less money to be made by the industry.
I have two pairs of hookless ZIPP 303(s). Thanks for explaining what that means.
Just curious, as a hookless wheel owner, did you know about the 72psi pressure limit?
@@Cade_Media I did, the LBS told me 74 was the limit on these for the road, 40ish for gravel.
It also says very clearly on the rim itself. I run them too for gravel with Pirelli CGH, and love them
@@martinhudobivnik5895 those are the kind of details I miss in cycling
@@jmoran74 I find it ugly on the rim, but I understand why it's there. I also knew about it from all the research I did, but totally missed that Pirellis can only be pumped to 58psi. Glad I wasn't the one doing the tubeless conversion 😂
4:28 "that wheel is true" when i tell you i laughed out loud
Is there any benefit for going hookless with an alloy rim? Are we going to end up with all carbon rims being hookless, and alloy ones hooked, and if so, does that mean that tyres are going to end up being specific to rim material?
Great question. As far as I can see it's likely to be that if tyres all end up being hookless compatible, it may well be that alloy rims go the same way. With the way that the alloy rims are manufactured however, there's fewer benefits either in terms of cost or strength.
One thing to bear in mind though, is that just because a tyre is hookless compatible, doesn't mean it can't still be used on a hooked rim. So rather than having tyres specific to rim material, we're more likely to see a situation whereby more and more tyres end up being hookless compatible.
Does hooked not help offroad tubeless help to not burp in corners?
Probably
I suspect cheaper manufacturing cost is the main driver for this, or am I being too cynical. Negligible weight saving (Hunt quote 15 gram per wheel) and aero resistance. I did watch one RUclips video and the presenter said the tyres didn’t hold air overnight? What about installing them and you need an airshot to inflate?
Clever marketing to derive more profits is my initial belief.
I’m on the Zipp FC303 which are hookless. I realized that running them on higher end of the limit makes the wheels faster. Question is how will I know it’s going to blowout? Any tell tale signs? The tire pressure reading are from my pump n I’m afraid that my pump may be inaccurate
Do you feel faster or are you measurably faster? Less road buzz can make you feel you're slower, when the opposite is true
Zipp are big fans of this. In fact their new premium wheels are ONLY hookless which is really annoying.
I also watched a RUclipsr test a hookless bead set up and his tyres needed inflating during his ride as they were losing air that much. No one appears to be discussing this further?
Problem is a lot of people compare a bicycle to a car these days 🤦♂️ happened with disc brakes even though cars never used rim brakes they used drum brakes 🤦♂️
Same is happening here, yes cars are hookless like most vehicles but a car / plane has a much larger volume due to the tyre size being much much larger than a 25 / 28mm tyre on a road bike....
Also when are you ever pumping your car tyres up to 70psi 🤷♂️🤷♂️ you're not 🙈🙈
When are you pumping your car tyres to 70+psi? When you're suffering from Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas...
Clinchers +1 : Hookless 0. Informative video.
Again, it’s all about tolerances. Mavic has a standard, and they stick to it. Many makers, of both rims and tires, don’t.
Nice. Out of curiosity, are you not doing videos with James anymore? It's been quite a while and I'm really missing bike fit Tuesdays. Thanks.
Yes, he was on holiday when I was last in London though, bad timing. More to come soon!
@@Cade_Media Excellent! Thanks for the reply.
Do these rims have a maximum rider weight? Heavier guys need more psi!
The caveat though is somewhat serious. If you can hear hissing at 80-90 PSI, while well below the point where you blew the tire in your experiement, that wheel is a ticking bomb while riding out in the real world if someone inflates them just 10-20 PSI past the magic 72 and puts weight on them while riding on the road.
Zipp does hookless road and has an app that suggests your perfect PSI. Mine is 53 psi. Very strange riding on a road bike with 53psi, when five years ago I'd cry if it was below 100.
53! Are u on gravel wheels?
You wont see anyone in the Giro running 53psi lol
Do you think there is much of a downside if a heavy rider like me (88kg, total system weight of 98kg) has to stick to the 5 bar limit of ETRTO.
Zipp tells me to run my 28 mm tires at 4.2/4.5bar, yet other calculators like the SILCA one would put me in the 5.5 bar range for optimised rolling resistance.
Zipp argues, the added comfort/reduced vibrations will make you faster as well. What is your take on that?
To safely run an aero-optimized setup (Rule of 105: Conti 5000 STR 25 mm tire on my 27 mm wide Zipp 303S wheels) I would have to run unsafe 5.5 bar or reduce my system weight by 8 kg which might be hard :-)
I’m a solid 200lbs and am using enve45 and 30c tubeless and have never had any issues running them at 48-50psi. Can’t speak about any smaller tires but anything over 55psi just felt way to harsh of a ride, in my opinion. I don’t think you should have anything to worry about. Send it!
At your weight, I’d suggest you go to 32mm tires. I weigh 160 pounds, and I’m running 32mm GP 5000s. I don’t think they slow me down one bit compared to 28s or 24s. And they give me a lot more confidence while cornering and especially on bad pavement.
So if the air pressure is the only thing keeping the tyres on. What happens if I puncture at speed going down hill or in a group. The tyres could come off the rims before you can stop?
This
@@cc-000 good way to reduce customers. I think I will wait until all the problems are ironed out.
The hook is there to stop the tire from going over the rim when it stretches due to high pressure. when you puncture and loose all pressure it basically does nothing to hold the tire beads on the rim. there is no real difference for this scenario between hookles and hooked rims per se.
in fact one could argue that a tight fitting tubeless compatible tire on a similar tightly specced tubeless rim (regardless of hooked or not) will stay on for longer than a non-tubeless tire that possibly fits way looser and will come off the rim easier.
Could you tell your friend at parcours that the URL to the contact page is broken on the EU website please ;)
yep good stuff, informative ! however ...... cheaper wheels, then shows a Factor bike haha. not sure I can afford a fake Factor right now :(
I had this happen with a mtb wheel, it where cheaper tires and pumped them to 3,5 bar like i do them with my maxxis tires to seet them, 5 minute later there was no more tire 🙄
😱
😎
I wouldn’t say your friend or Parcours “makes” wheels, they might build the complete wheelsets but the rims and hubs are made by a China OEM manufacturer… not that there’s anything wrong with that as it’s how pretty much all the big brands do it.
Hi Andrew, yes our rims are manufactured in China (our hubs are Taiwanese), however just to clarify we do have a dedicated team in the factory who only work on Parcours. So unlike some other brands we control the entire manufacturing process.
@@ParcoursDov Hi Dov, do you own and use your own exclusive moulds?
@@andrewpalmer2195 yes we do
@@ParcoursDov fair play to you for making the substantial investment when many brands don’t. Also have to say fair play for you not following the current trend for hookless rims on your road wheels… you know it’s a bit pointless and not all it’s cracked up to be when the Kings Of Marketing Specialized still decided not to use it on their updated tubeless Roval CLX wheels.
Car wheel doesn’t have hooks but the physics are completely different. Car tyres have a different sidewall density etc which makes the tyre stay on. It’s not the high bar that’s an issue, it’s the low pressure especially when you get a flat when there’s a danger of the tyres rolling off that is the issue.
Don’t use car wheels as a use case example. Like press fit this hookless trend will go away..hopefully
I want to hear more about the Zipp patent on fitting hooks to hookless wheels and also-why Rapide CLX version 2.0 is hooked unlike the 1.0 which was hookless.
Hookless road wheels is the invention with ZERO benefits to the consumers.
I thought hookless rims allow a more seamless transition from the tire to the rim and improve aerodynamics
That is one of the advantages, but many are concerned about system stability. Nobody wants to roll on a pair of potential bombs.
so its manufacturers benefit cause its cheaper to produce.
also the reason for disc brakes, cheaper to make wheels with no brake surface needed on wheels.
As usual
@@bettyblue7291 disc brakes are becoming a thing because disc brakes are just better, slightly heavier yes but more power and just better overall
Hookless rims are cheaper & simpler to produce because they can use permanent metal molds instead of single-use flexible ones. Also some brands mill out the carbon fiber to create the bead track, which reduces rim strength. In the case of Zipp and others, the comparable hookless rims are cheaper (e.g. the Zipp 303-S vs. the earlier 303).
Considering the incredible QA across tyre manufacturers I’m sure absolutely no problems will occur \s
what type of Hubs does he use actually? I tried finding that out on their website (mainly for freehub tech), but I couldn't find anything. The FAQ mentions the offer of DT Swiss hubs on contact, but it sounds like the normal hubs are not DT Swiss, so I am still unsure about which is which.
They are his own design hubs, so unique to parcour. But yes can be switched to dtswiss if you fancied it.
Probably worth emailing and asking though, it's a small company and I'm sure they'll be happy to help
Exactly as Francis says - the disc brake hubs are our own design. Main difference between ours & the DT Swiss options is the drive mechanism. DT use a star ratchet, whereas ours use a pawl and ratchet
@@ParcoursDov I do like my star ratchet on the rear wheel, but that's the only thing I would probably change there XD. Otoh, considering I am running 47mm tires, the alta seem a little slim? I do like the price, for when I can afford that upgrade (definitely not rn, got more bags, powermeter and probably carbon handlebars to buy first).
@@ohmps01 maybe keep an eye on the website &/or our social media in about a month's time... 😉🤫
I have a question 🙋♂️ .... is there any real difference between a gravel wheelset and CX one?
Dimensions would usually dictate where it falls. But things always shift.
There is, although that's not to say you can't use a gravel wheelset for CX and vice versa.
Generally-speaking, a CX wheel will be based around a narrower tyre given the max tyre width is set at 33mm. Whereas for gravel you would be looking at something quite a lot wider. Then in our experience we'd look at having the gravel wheel slightly more robust to handle the different ride conditions.
@Ryan TF saying that, I'm not sure there's many pure CX-specific wheels left out there now. It's a much smaller market, especially when gravel wheels are increasing in popularity. From a manufacturer's perspective, it makes it a much harder argument to develop a new CX wheel
This is a bit slim on details. He only touches on the problems of heavier riders and thinner tyres which is actually a major concern for bigger people running thinner tyres. They need to do some very careful research before going hookless. The assertion that hookless are stronger is total bollocks, the strength is derived entirely from the amount of material and design detail (section) of the rim edge. Hooked wheel design needs to be careful to avoid sharp corners in the hook so as to avoid stress concentration. His opening statement says it all - hookless rims are without the safety feature of the hook securing the bead, ie they are inherently less safe. Comparisons to car or aeroplane tyres are misleading as most are steel radial, very wide (compared to cycle tyres) and are set into a far deeper rim. Blowing a tyre up to pressure to test failure does NOT even vaguely approximate real world conditions and the multitude of forces the tyre is subjected to at that pressure. The problems with skinny tyres can be mitigated by use of deep internal channels in the rim allowing a greater volume of air at lower pressures but few manufacturers have tried to exploit this. One also has to be very attentive to the tyre's specifications regarding internal rim width and rin edge height when choosing a tyre and wheel combo. Small wonder there have been so many failures! Until the manufacturers have figured out all the intricacies of this design and are very clear to customers as to the limitations my advice would be for casual riders to avoid hookless. G. Hart - industrial designer
To be fair, even most hooked carbon wheels limit max pressure to about 80 psi.. with exceptions. Roval and Shimano are two that allow well over 100psi in their hooked wheels. Maybe these are simply built stronger?
I have never seen hooked rims with a max. pressure rating that low, all I've seen are about 110 - 120+ PSI.
@@yonglingng5640 HED limit to 80 psi. Hunt limit to 100 psi. These are two that I know, but maybe such low psi limits are not as common as I thought.
We've been riding un-hooked for almost an eternity ---> tubulars. Abraham Olano won the World Road Cycling Championship in 1995, after suffering a rear flat tyre. He rode 1Km to the finish on a flat TUBULAR. You can NOT do that with clincher or tubeless!
Actually yes you can. Checkout gravel/road tubeless air-liners :)
you can with tubeless and also with tubeless (if the puncture hole is small enough) the sealant will fix the flat without you barely noticing.
@@harveyjones1 that's NOT riding with a FLAT tyre. Sorry!
@@savagepro9060 exactly, thats the point.
My theory: people are catching up to the fact that it makes zero sense to pay a fortune for branded carbon wheels when sooooo many Chinese manufacturers and shops sell the exact same stuff for less than half the price. So going hookless costs them a little less and they're reducing their prices in an effort to stay vaguely competitive.
With wheel-building studios, you get to spec your wheelset the way you want it, this means you can spend a little more here and a little less there.
Why not Wheel talk Wednesdays?
Last💣
Hookless for road 🤔.....No
I've been using hooked rims on MTB for years and I can saybthevtims have been punished beyond gravel fire roads with no damage.
Cheaper to produce...ahh so that's why. I suppose most manufacturers will just carry on selling at same price as previous 🙄
So a 95kg rider.....on 28"s...... doing time trials running 90psi........not a good idea then?
For 28 mm tires on hooked rims, I go for 90 PSI max for clinchers, 80 PSI for tubeless.
Hookless rims, whatever the limit the rims say, as long as it's not lower than the tire's minimum inflation pressure.
Hookless rims aren't new. I have a pair of hookless wheels from the 1950s. But then someone invented hooked rims and they faded away. As the chap said at the beginning of the video, it save manufacturers money. How many 'advances' in cycling have benefited manufacturers more than riders?