Shocking blowout of 25mm hookless wheel/tyre combo
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- Unbelievable blowout of a Tubeless ready approved tyre WITHIN recommended pressure on a hookless wheel set. Wheel and tyre have been sent to Conti who have been excellent in their reactivity and some anomalies have been detected that warrant further investigation. Will update.
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Putting lives at risk for the sake of saving on tooling cost. Hookless needs to be completely banned by a safety body. WELCOME TO THE BIKE INDUSTRY 🎉
got some zipp 303 firecrests. run with schwable gravel tyres. conti 5k TLR and now schwalbe one. no issues at all. all other tubeless setups l've done no issues too but that was on hooked. ok lower pressure since l'm quite light. but l guess the system is not fit for higher weight rides (as sugestest by that european tyre commision)
Bernard is 65 kg rider.
Not heavy by any means
@@leonschumann2361 I'm a 100kg and I'm running hookles for the past 2 years without any issues at all... ever. I'm using Schwalbe PRO ONE TLE. Before I had Giant tires. However, my mechanic told me Conti GP5000 are crap for this setup and told me not to bring him Contis to put on as he will not do it. LOL
Problem with this industry is zero control and accountability.
Not like the bike industry to cost cut..... press fit BB comes straight to mind. I have seen this happen in pro races.
Great video, I have done countless videos on this subject, I think that there is just too much to go wrong for little to no benefit for the consumer. And only benefit the manufacturers by making it cheaper to make. I will always prefer a hooked rim if I’m buying something.
Too much hidden, conflicting info. This dude made some poor choices. Not his fault as the info is not easy to find. The tyre was too narrow and he went straight to the max pressure with an inaccurate pump.
@@Mapdec Following all manufacturer recommended sizes, product compatibility and pressures are poor choices?
@@eto2352 he didn’t though. 5 bar is the absolute max. And that would be for an ideal combo. The tyre is too narrow and the pressure too high. He also inflated once the bead was damaged.
@@Mapdec you would assume they add some redudency in their 5 bar recommendation though no? surely its not 5 bar fine, 5.1 bar explodes?
@@TheLazyGarden3r max is max. Also tyre bead was already damaged
That is insane! So dangerous that! Thank you for sharing this.
I’ve been riding for well over a year with a hookless zipp 404 with the str with the recommended width of 28mm. No problems. Sorry to see the complications you’re going through, and glad that didn’t happen in the middle of a ride.
Recommended tyre pressure for system weight, recommended pressure by wheel and tyres manufacturers are all different. How can it be
Same, zipp404 with GP5000STR. God the bead is damn tight that it takes me forever to fit it without scratch the rim. Hard to image it pop out for no reason.
Same here. 303 Firecrest, used Schwalbe and Vittoria and will get STR next anyway.
303s with Bontrager Tires - I beat the absolute shit out of them at around 60-65psi
Absolutely fine
I’ve also ridden with guys who’s clincher rim brake wheels have gotten too hot during descents and the tire has blown off
You don’t see many guys saying rim brakes should be banned
Pro peleton are rolling around at 100km/h on hookless rims these days
I’d say the technology is safe as long as you respect it - 65psi in my 28c road bike tire rolls fast and feels fantastic
This is widely spoke about in the group, what’s to stop this happening… hooked all the way😊👍
i will stick with my clinchers and tubes. thanks for posting this. i have heard about this before but always assumed that people were pumping up with too much pressure.
I took the video offline because things got a bit crazy and people were freaking out and making personal attacks, which really isn't worth it for the coffee money that YT pays. Back online now, hopefully people can react more calmly and intelligently. The tyre and wheel have gone off to Continental who are taking it seriously and at this point we still don't know exactly what caused this, but what is clear is that it SHOULD NOT have happened as the wheel / tyre combo is fine / approved, and the pressure was within the max recommended. My personal view is that hookless removes an important safety element for very little tangible gain and I will not be using them in the future, regardless of brand. I have no idea why YT has removed most of the old comments, (including Peak Torque railing against hookless), and kept some others.
Please do a followup. Thanks.
In my opinion it went too far, where someone sacrificed a safety for some marginal gains. I'd rather ride a tubular tyre without a glue than that silly hookless technology. I think someone should say that something went wrong and everyone should forget that standard. There should be a recall. I guess it will be expensive but that's a price for a silly mistake someone made.
@@esdopedoen517 Indeed, I trust tubulars 100% and never had an issue in 20 years. Hookless can work OK; but it has to be just right, with no room for errors.
I was wondering why this hasn’t got a million views. Sad to hear you had so many haters. It’s these sorts of videos that are real and can help hold manufacturers to account. Hopefully some of the big name channels like CadeMedia pick this one up. Well done
@@treveri100 Thanks. Most were supportive but some got quite nasty,. A guy called Mapdec even made a video trying to denounce everything that happened. He was proven worng multiple times but never apologised.
Thanks for the demonstration. Will stick to clincher, even if I ever go disk! Love that campy set in the background, 2 way fit, no spoke holes, hidden nipples, very nice...
Tubeless and hookless are fine, provided you're running the correct setup. GP5000s are NOT hookless compatible and Conti flat out says not to use them on hookless rims. Tubeless still has advantages over clincher in terms of not immediately going flat from a small puncture and less rolling resistance and smoother ride quality.
@@mrvwbug4423 GP5000 STR are hookless compatible, numbnuts.
@@mrvwbug4423 while I appriciate the sentiment, and do not disagree, the argument is moot if the use of 5000s tr on a hooked "clincher" type rim in a tubeless config is considered. This was the intended insinuation on the "stick to clincher" comment that I made, with reference to the rim type rather than a tube/tyre combo. I love tubeless, just not on hookless and I think the video stresses that the "correct setup" was being used, but that blow off can still occur. The real question is if hookless is as safe as hooked for road use? Just because it is cheaper to manufacture doesnt mean hookless/nonclinching rims are good thing for the consumer as I feel safety trumps reduced cost.
What a nightmare. Thank you for exposing this. There are lawsuits on the horizon.
Product recall needed!!! This is crazy, thank you for posting
Thanks for this video. Couldn't be more of a convincing demonstration. Clinchers forever.
just get hooked rims
Just use a hookless compatible tire. GP5000s aren't hookless compatible and Conti and EVERY wheel manufacturer says not to use them on hookless.
@@tonyg3091 I have ZIPP 303 Firecrests for rim breaks. They have hooks and are tubeless and clincher compatible. I'm running them on Conti 5000 clinchers.
@@mrvwbug4423 stop spewing nonsense, GP5000 STR are hookless compatible.
@@alamogiftshop not sure what you're referring to. All 5000 STR's are hookless compatible.
Scary. I've been running hookless for three years. Followed manufacturers advise on compatible tyres and pressures, and have ridden 34K km with no issues at all. But ... the whole rim /tubeless tyre compatibility issue is a minefield and nobody in the industry seems to want to cooperate. That leaves us having to make judgements we shouldn't need to, and carrying unnecessary risk.
I have a feeling all tubeless tires will be hookless compatible in the next 5yrs. That said, most of the tires I'd want to ride are already hookless compatible anyway.
Simple, if it's hookless, don't buy it. Nothing holding it on properly. Market will sell what people buy eventually.
@@iann23 good luck finding hookless wheels for your car😉
@@veganpotterthevegan what car?
@iann23 any car🤷 Outside of very old classics with original wheels, they're all hookless
Thank you so much for sharing this! Thank you! I'm so sorry this happened to you, but you're extremely fortunate to experience it off of the bike. Like you said - if that happened on a descent the consequence would be dire.
I've been really concerned about hookless wheels for a long time. That being said, the pair of Hunt wheels I've been considering for my Ostro VAM are hookless, but I just can't shake the idea that not having hooks seems dangerous.
It's just not worth the risk, IMO, however small it might be.
Thanks for sharing, I’m an early adopter consumer, I like trying new tech and went with tubeless on my road bike since the GP 5000 TL where lunched, but this is scary, I would never go hookless after watching this.
Hookless is fine if you use a compatible tire. The GP5000 is specifically NOT hookless compatible
@@mrvwbug4423 GP5000 STR (the tyre shown in this video) is very much hookless compatible, brain harder.
Not saying I would go hookless with the TL tire, I’m not that dumb. But I would’nt go hookless with any “hookless compatible” road tire after watching this.
As a veteran rider of 45 years on the road, and seeing all the developments some good, some bad within the Industry, this one is by far the worst and most dangerous.
To add to your entirely legitimate view, I'm an old-timer (74) but still love doing 100km rides, weather and trail/road permitting, and I'm running a 32c on the rear, but have Mavic A319 rims, built them up a decade ago, and they still run true, and I like to pump up my tires to 90psi, slightly higher on the rear, because I can!
Why even have high rated tires if you can only pump them up safely on a hookless about 40psi?
Hello? Come in control, anyone there?
Over 300k miles in my legs and I'm happy we have hookless wheels and disc brakes
That is utterly crazy, and all the evidence you need to NOT run Hookless. My god.. Thanks for sharing.
But GCN say hookless rims are great, and they’re always so honest and forthright with their opinions aren’t they - right ?? 😉
Aha GCN is absolutely not the channel to get your mechanical knowledge from.
I don’t think it’s an honesty thing, I think it’s a matter of who gives the ad dollars and gives lots of parts and swag.
@@836dmarexactly right.
As an experienced team mechanic I used to comment on GCN videos picking up on such. They never liked it & deleted the comments.
@@keepitreal1547 They've deleted my comments too. It's sad when we can't even protect our fellow riders. GCN needs to go.
I'd wager the problem lies with your wheels and their sloppy tolerances. There's also a common sense red flag that too many people ignore for the sake of convenience: if it's (too) easy for your tire to mount, it will just as easily dismount your rim.
Definitely agree with this. Is the rim a measured 21mm internal, is the tyre channel wall thickness uniform, maybe there's a weak point.. Is the rear wheel and tyre combo the same ?
@@Andy-co6pnId wager it’s a dodgy tyre. Conti are experts at making tyres that don’t fit.
@@harrybbbb what I don't get is putting the same tyre back on the rim to prove the point. It's clearly not going to hold once it has already popped off
@@Andy-co6pn Hard to argue with that TBH.
@@Andy-co6pn Of course there was only one way to make this video 😂
In my opinion (and I could be wrong) it is your tyre. The ETRTO recommends 28mm and their new recommendations is actually 29mm on a hookless wheel. I have 2 set of hookless both are fine, never a problem. Both wheel sets have 28mm tyres. Your tyre pressure is good at 4-5 bar. Hope you get it sorted. Wishing you safe cycling.
I think 25mm tyres on hookless should be immediately ditched as a bad idea. Not approved as in this case.
You are wrong. The 29mm recommendation is for a 25mm internal width. This Extralite rim is 21mm.
@@quwers This is still only 4mm. ETRTO's new standard states that there should be a minimum of a 5mm overlap between the internal measurement of a rim and the size of the tyre fitted to it.
@@quwers it’s a good job I covered myself in my comment so and I stand corrected. Maybe it’s a combination of both the wheel and tyre so. I did check one of my wheel sets and it has an internal of 23mm which I have 28mm tyre with no problem at all with Vittoria Corsa N.EXT. My others are Panaracer Agilest Duro. Anyhow I hope he gets it sorted and has many a safe mile of cycling. Out of interest, could he try a 28mm tyre?
@@GerryAttrick , hi. So the minimum tyre should be a 26mm in this case? I’m sure he could try a 28mm as well.
This is very valuable information. Thx for sharing!!
Are 25mm tires suggested for those rims. The zipp 303s smallest sized tire is a 28
Yes they are. Even 23mm
@@CyclespeedTours yeah go try 23mm on hookless bro it's not dangerous ... lol don't do it
Hi,
Thanks so much for posting this, confirms my own beleif in the failings of hookless rims. Thank your Biking Guardian Angel for not allowing this to happen on the road. Be well.
Oh man. Ive been hookless for a few years and hooked also. Something to watch and fix by makers. This is our worst fear while descending the climbs. I'm always checking tires after each ride anyway ( was taught by old coach) . This should not happen......thanks for posting
Use the SRAM tyre pressure calculator. You will see that with hookless and 25mm you get a warning regarding tire pressure exceeding rim pressure rating. Either go with hooks or swap to 28mm if you are going to use hookless.
There's a reason why most hookless compatible tires are 28c or wider, but you get lots of stubborn idiots who will insist on running their 23c or 25c GP5000s on hookless rims. Usually tubeless isn't even recommended below 25c, much less hookless.
@@mrvwbug4423 there's a lot of stubborn idiots who work for free on behalf of millionaires running the bike industry, coming up with excuses for every isht they throw at us. Hookless on road wheels is a ticking time bomb solution. Watch Giro Donne 2023 stage 6, rider crashes at speed because her hookless tubeless wank explodes in a straight line.
@@mrvwbug4423 not sure why you'd call names people who follow manufacturer's advice. GP5000 STR is very much hookless compatible in 25mm, as per Continental themselves.
@@mrvwbug4423 Also most problem free hookless wheels (ZIPP, ENVE, Giant) have 23-25mm inner width. Extralight, went extra mile to cut corners and this creates bad name for hookless. Also this video is not very clear, as there was no comparison with different tyre, wheel, ect...
@@Pav_1983Amen! and people base their opinion on a sole video on youtube. Stick with renowned manufacturers such as Zipp and Enve and follow their tire chart and ultimately the tire pressure for hookless application
The issue might not be with hookless rims in general. The issue might be with the Extralite hookless rims you have. I went ahead and read the user manual for the Extralite CyberDisk 339 clinchers and there are just too many warnings and confusing information for me to ever consider buying them.
This was exactly my first thought. Zipp and Enve hookless wheels have been fine for me, literally never head of extralite.
Same thought
Should rebrand to extradangerous
@@leslie7922 extralite-itup
@@leslie7922 Don't yet have absoute proof whether it was the tyre or rim at fault.....
Looks like y'all got the infamous pearl necklace of the tubeless world
If you put your stats into axs sram tyre pressure calculator you will see on that rim 'Warning - Suggested tire pressure exceeds rim pressure rating. Please select a large tire size'. You were inflated to the maximum pressure the pressure above which the tyre manufacturer has found the tyre blows of the rim. If you had 28mm versions of the same tyre it would still have been at the 73 psi max but would likely have been fine because is a higher volume tyre. People think the maximum tyre pressure is a target to aim at, it is not the optimum tyre pressure. I would inflate using psi not bar and a 28mm tyre on a 21mm rim bed would be a much better match and could be run at optimum pressures below the 73psi hookless limit.
Nonsense, I'm afraid, tyre states 5 bar max, wheel 6 bar max, and tyre is approved for that wheel.
I've been riding tubeless both road and MTB for a few years now. And since a few months I have a giant TCR with SLR 1 hookles rims with GP5000str. Install went flawlessly as usual and always run 64 psi front 65 rear. Great tires nothing wrong with it. And yes, things can go wrong! Not everything is flawless once.
Maybe if I had stayed at those pressures I would have been OK. But I wanted to try the 'max' 73psi, and this happened.
Survivor bias.
Good to show this. I want to build my own bike next year and this type of technology is not safe. There are to many parameters involved. For example both rim and tire tollerances, maybe some latex came between the rim and tire. And what to think about temperature and aging? If temperatures get higher both rim and tire can become a bit more softer or flexibel creating conditions for a blow out. There should be plenty of safety margin especially for consumers.
Aging is an important point that I had overlooked. Rubber decays over time so how safe is your hookless after 1 or 2 years?
Hookless is the biggest gimmick in cycling
I only use tubulars , I’ve had a couple of blowouts over the years , one was 45mph downhill, tyre stayed on as I gently came to a stop👌🏻
Why are people falling for this crap like hookless rims and tubeless tyres .
Come on guys fucking wise up!!!! sometimes things were invented correctly first time, use tubular tyres and rim brakes and you won’t go far wrong.
i hope this video gets viral..
WOW !! 😮 This is insane, I don’t run hookless and will NEVER run hookless. Thank you for the video and thank god this didn’t happen while you were riding.
You can inflate tubs to 15 bar though, so I feel confident on mine at 7......
@@CyclespeedTours why would anyone want to inflate a bike tire to 15 bar and ride on something rock hard???
@@danielakerman8241 15 bar, OK maybe 13, is just to set the tyre when you glue it on. I ride at about 7 bar.
you were so polite talking about the danger. I was already screaming my lungs. wow that was violent. I like speed and fast conering. Thanks for letting us know this very very dangerous idea of hookless rims. I will never buy one. My goodness. At any speed, that will certainly be extremely dangerous.
Wow, that's frightening as hell. So grateful that it didn't happen to you out on the road.
Please do a follow up. And include the important question, was the tire unusually easy to mount? I installed GP5000TRs on my Bontrager aluminum rims, and that combination was the hardest to mount of any tire I’ve ever experienced. Removing them was also crazy hard.
I will be following up on whatever conclusions can be drawn. The tyres were not 'east' to mount, but not especially hard either. Adding rim tape to the rear hasn't changed anything significantly.
Me: "Babe, hold the camera. I'm going to overfill this tire, blow it off the rim, and spray sealant all over the kitchen."
My wife: "No."
Yeah well, she wasn't too happy, I can assure you of that!
Been running hookless tubeless for 4 years. I'm 82 kg at 4 Bars, 28mm, Orange Seal sealant, Zipp 303s wheelset. No issues.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR STORY. BECAUSE IT HASN'T HAPPENED TO YOU EVERYTHING IS OK!
Same here with 404 FC. When I hear things like "top it up to 5bar" shit is programmed to happen, especially when riding in hot conditions and you dont consider expansion of air within the tire🤦 People need to inform themselves before arguing hookless bla bla is dangerous. The margin of error is definitely less than on hooked wheels but that's not an excuse to say they are dangerous. I've even put the 25mm S TR in front and rode down Timmelsjoch with 100kph and nothing happened. I can't hear it anymore 🙄
Are you somewhat deaf? He clearly demonstrates that 4bar is fine and it blows off at 5 despite beeing within the factory limits of tire and wheelset. So no one cares if you ride with 4 bars (which is slow as fuck for your weight).
If it states 5 bar as max then it should be able to take 5 bar in a cool static situation
iT hAsNt HapPeNeD tO mE tHeRefoR iTs fInE eVen ThOuGh iT's LitTeRalLy sHoWn iN tHiS vIdEo
great comment bro
I've been riding hookless carbon wheels for at least 3 to 4 years with Schwalbe Pro One's and 5000's no issues. Of note the profile on my wheels shows an inward taper where the hooks would be. Also, mounting any tire is a bitch. I suspect this is part of the secret to keeping them on. If I mount a tire that seems way too easy it will probably blow off. In my early days of learning tubeless I had your exact scenario with 'hooked' tubeless wheels. The tire fit was too loose. Once I found the right tire combination it has been awesome. So it can happen with either wheel type. The key is the tire and wheel match. Hopefully you got things sorted out and the support from your wheel supplier. Don't give up on tubeless. I personally love it.
First off why 25mm, not 28mm? Second 73psi or 5bar is not the "recommended" running pressure, it is the absolute max that you should consider using. I have never run any tyre/wheel combo at the absolute max...what would be the point?
The point is you hit a pothole, and you get a blowout. With hook rims, that chance is 0. So why the heck should consumers take this risk for no reason?
Im waiting for the comments of "gotta set it up right i rode 500000000km on tubeless no issues" or something along those lines. Jeez at least you were zooming along for that. Clinchers and tubs for racing all the way
Ok. Before you all here panic. 28mm minimum is what they are asking for (most wheel makers). For example ZIPP is explicitly stating NOT USE UNDER 28 MM. Even on your wheel manufacture page most of the tyres are 28 mm and larger. Continental does not have size - i would normally send them email to ask for the approved size. Another part is - they explicitly say - any pressure above (even during installation) pressure (during seating) can cause damage and bad future functionality. Have you send them your link? What did they reply? For me, i will not go "superlight" wheels with tubeless. They simply seems to be too fragile. I have not heard about problem with major brands. But correct me, if there are some. Riding ZIPP 454 SW, on 5 Bar, no issues. And i am 82KG.
Thank you: been thinking about trying tubeless, but this gives me pause.
Tubulars for the win 🥇
HOLY SHIIIIT, Thank fuck you weren't out on the road, that could have put you in SERIOUS danger.
That's a MAJOR safety issue.
Indeed.
Thank you for the video I will avoid hookless.
I'm on a hooked tubeless rim. Carrying tire levers on a ride is not the end of the world. I am very happy that the GP5000S TR is WAAAAAYYYY easier to mount than the previous tubeless model.
That’s nuts I was wondering about the safety so much hype I think it’s just cheaper for the manufacturers to make the rims
Crazy how it's cheaper to make, but more expensive to buy
'Blowout' and 'hookless' are synonymous - the only shocking thing about it is that THAT design got to mass production.
Had issues with continental tyres on my Zipps.
Would be interesting to see the results with a different brand.
My monies on dodgy tyre.
I was going to comment about hookless safety in your previous video but didn’t want to appear a hater. I was actually a bit surprised that you got a hookless setup. I’m not following the industry anymore but there didn’t seem to be any technological improvements. So I attributed it to the industry kind of forgetting about the issues. Anyway, glad you’re safe at least.
I have been a bit naive here in thinking that this would work 'safely' given the cycle industry penchant for safety (eg. lawyer tabs on dropouts). Clearly I was wrong.....
Very useful video; thanks for posting. You seem to have concluded that the issue is with the tire rather than the hookless wheel, which is entirely possible; I have purchased GP 5000s that were defective (one I bought in 2020 was bit "lumpy" in my case; annoying but not unsafe). However, I abandoned tubeless tires in general a while ago, and I will never use hookless rims on a bicycle. Hookless rims obviously work well with cars, with pressures around 30 psi (2 bar) and massive wheels and very thick, steel-reinforced tires, but I personally like to ride road bikes on 28-32 mm tires at higher pressures, 80-90 psi (5-6 bar), and, as you've dramatically demonstrated, thinner, less substantial hookless wheels and tires, at much higher pressures, are not a very good idea. I'll stick with clinchers for now, thanks.
Good idea!
Hookless works on MTBs too ( 1,5 - 2,0 bar , 30mm inner width for 60+mm tires)
Re-visiting this. I find it interesting that the new syncros Capital SL wheelset 25TSS have actually not approved GP5k S TR 28mm as well as TT TR 28mm, yet, approves Corsa Pro 28mm.
My personal experience: my first 353 NSW with 28mm S TR @70PSI blew off unridden just sitting in my living room, the 2nd blow off was 28mm TT TR @70PSI riding up hill, wheel was replaced and now running Corsa Pro, zero issues so far and simply mounting the tire felt way more secure with the Corsa pro . I personally think continental hookless beads are out of spec and/or stretch. Syncros approved tire list directly correlates with my blowouts.
The same thing happened with my continental tubeless ready tires with my enve 4.5 AR wheel set. Twice. Once while walking my bike out of the garage for its inaugural tubeless ride and another time when I was 1 house from my home. I immediately went back to inner tubes. The bike shop hadn’t experienced this before and was quite puzzled.
They would say that though
You need continental GP5000 S TR for enve 4.5AR , the reguler TR is not compatible
@@minkmoink those are the ones I’m having issues with
@@travissherer7351 Hi travis, I'm using Conti GP5000STR 28mm on enve 4.5AR with no issue (tubeless)
I use Zipp 404 Firecrest & Cadex 65's. The Zipp's with Continental GP 5000 ASTR & Cadex with Goodyear F1 R 25mm front & 28mm rear. I've never had a problem with either set.
I can feel your pain, It’s maddening when it’s not working! Hookless needs bloody tight tolerances, the tighter the better. You clearly don’t have that with this setup. The alarm bells went off for me when you said the tyres mounted up easy. I’m just glad it was sealant on the floor and not your blood!
It’s either a faulty tire or the rim….
@@michelbeaupre920 That or the rim & tyre are both at the opposite ends of their ranges of tolerance. I would hope that isn’t the case but It does seem it is down to each manufacturer and their own interpretation of standards and qc to catch outliers on the bell curve. The manual for these rims does essentially lay out this scenario, so each user is expected to enter in to a game of tubeless Goldilocks to ensure individual safety. Hookless absolutely can work, but It’s not really good enough and has the potential to offer a frustrating or life changing user experience.
I wonder which part was causing the failure. i am guessing the continental tire. my conti tires were amongst the worst in weight fluctuation and roundness. more than half my conti tire had unusable side to side wiggle. i do like the extra width you get from hookless tires but the hooks really give confidence. they are a weakspot though, carbon hooks are scary too, so im on the fence.
tyres were too narrow for the rim. or the rim was too wide for the tyre. apparently.
Thanks for the video! I hope you get enough views, so you can buy some new wheels and tires!
When I worked as a bike mechanic in my teens, I was installing a new tire and tube on an old Schwinn from the 70s. I blew up two tubes in my face before my manager raced over and explained the issue to me. The wheels and tires were both hookless. The PSI rating was 100 psi, but in reality it was only 35 psi.
I couldn't believe it when I found out that high-end wheel manufacturers were going down this route again. It just doesn't make sense from a consumer standpoint.
I would expect he will be able to return these wheels and tires for a refund or replacement.
@@gregmorrison7320 I sure hope so! That was a pretty disturbing video. 😬
Why risk your life on hookless when their is a perfectly good product people have been using for ages. These bike companies are terrible pushing this crap.
Great job pointing that out
Lesson learned kids, don't jump on Marketing PR hype for "new" stuff. You will be the beta tester for it..
think he bought them more for the lightest rim bla bla than hookless tough ...
@@moserroman2083 it's silly to even poke a hook less rim with a stick, there is zero industry using them. Unfortunately cycling has washed off engineering departments with little control on their quality/safety of their proposals. Hence bad designs plague the market now,as everyone tries to be innovative to the expense of the user. I am not surprised that cycling is losing margin over the pie of sports that people do. Unsafe, and super expensive.
Hookless is the wildest fad the cycling industry tries to shove down our throat every opportunity they get.
Some, like Di2, I like, but this one definitely not!!
My mechanic (who is also a mechanic for our national team, so I would believe he knows this stuff) told me that Conti GP5000 are crap for hookless and told me not to bring him these tires as he will refuse to mount them. I never had any issues with my hookless setup with Giant rims and Giant tires. I switched to Schwalbe pro one TLE and had no issues with that as well, going since February this year. I'm a 100kg as well, so not a lightweight in any sense. I would say that the tires are at fault here, especially considering how it actually blew up with all the parts around.
How would you know this if you didn't have access to a "Pro" mechanic ? And are you happy with a limited tire choice (despite not knowing what those choices really are) ?
Commenter speaks the truth. Fellow Giant Tcr owner with slr1 wheelset. Gp5000 on list that didn't hold up to testing on hookless. I am schwalbe Pro 0 user as well as they are on tested list by giant not had a problem.
@@jimhansen5395reading will do the job...
Just because you had no issues with Giant rims and Giant tyres doesn't automatically make them safe. Watch Giro Donne 2023 stage 6, rider crashes at speed because her hookless tubeless wank explodes in a straight line. She was riding Giant bike on Giant (CADEX) rims and Giant tyres.
@channul4887 never seen tubulars roll off a rim? Worst crash of my life was from someone elses(not flat) tubular rolling off their rim.
The Independent cycling media keeps telling us this is the way forward! Surely this independent media aren’t in the pockets of the global brands, that would be outrageous 😮
Are you sure this isn’t a wheel issue?
Yep. Who knows the state of rim, age, how it was inflated in the past etc. I have seen my specialized rim lost tyre with 2 Bar and it is allowed to 3.5 Bar)
Wheels are brand new
Holy Shit! I run hooked rims on road and hookless rims on gravel. But on gravel I'm running at 2bar pressure.
Told ya on your last video.
Hookless technology is NOT suited for 25 mm tyre.
Above 35 mm is fine.
Tubs are way to go for shure.
Agree. Continental shouldn't rate the 25 mm as hookless compatible. Like a lot of other manufacturer actually do.
I still dont understand why people would want to go 25c with hookless considering they need higher pressure to work which works against the hookless system of needing low pressure, if you want to stay with 25c, go with hook
@@SiGNALz 28mm is the size you want to go for. and easy 4,5 bar. relax
thanks for being logical and using your brain, crazy how some think 25c and hookless are a match
@@SiGNALz+1000 make no sense , but owner probably wanted to have the weight weeniest shit
Sitting in the peanut gallery with my rim brake aluminium mavic ksyrium wheelset 🥜
You can’t say ”don’t buy hookless” when you have only tested one set of wheels with one set of tires. But I guess it attracts more views
One set of certified hookless wheels with one set of certified hookless compatible tyres failing should be enough for any sane person to have doubts. Especially since this is not an isolated incident. Someone mentioned an accident during Giro Donne this year, have a look at that one.
Exactly!
I’ve been on all forms of tubeless for decades and my experience is once a tire pops off the rim like that the tire done. The bead has been stretched and it will pop like that forever. I know this because I accidentally over inflated my tire and it blew off. The tire never stayed on again. If I didn’t know better I would have guessed that the tire was originally over inflated causing the tire to pop off. I’ll take your word for it that you did not over inflate it on the original installation which then means the bead was defective from the beginning. Did the tire go on easier then normal the first time? How about the second time? It’s highly unlikely that the rim is at fault because it would mean the rim is bowing out under that pressure which is not that high. But you never know with Extralite, they always take things to the edge.
Had to be honest I had never heard of the wheelmaker before ?
Long history of high quality products including MTB
The problem isn't with the rim type, it's that you're pumping too much pressure. This technology is dangerous when using high pressure with narrow tire! Dot.
If you want to follow the 105% rule, this technology is not for you, forget it.
If you take a 25mm mtb rim and put a 2.2 inch mtb tire there, then pump 4,5-5 atmospheres, absolutely the same thing will happen (tested on my maxxis ikon tires LOL).
In your case with CyberDisc 339 rims, I would use 30-32mm tires and would not risk with 28mm, and avoid 25mm!!!
Agree
And yet, the 25mm is fully approved and to 6.5 bar max......
In the market for new wheels. Thanks for this video Im never buying anything hookless
You bet
I have hookless gravel rims because they're meant to be more impact resistance and it felt sensible with my fat ass. 40psi though; essentially what MTB has been doing for years. Wouldn't run hookless on road wheels though, it just feels like an accident waiting to happen (narrower tyres, higher pressure, high speed cornering, questionable tolerances of both tyres and rims...).
In fact it's crazy brands are selling such wheels, because all my Italian friends still inflate their tyres rock hard. If they ran these they'd basically blow up.
One more comment to add: It seems like a lot of the defenders for tubeless / critics of your process are digging up obscure online technical documents, "Err well is that wheel verified by subsection 34Alpha on page 19 of the revised manual for wheels and tires," arguing that you're 0.1 bar over 'max,' that it may not have been utterly perfectly seated, etc. And yet, even if that's true, which I don't think it is: how many millions of tubed clinchers are in the world with garbage setups, and yet they don't spontaneously (yet predictably) blow off the wheels minutes after pumping. A design which begs for user failure is a poor design, even if it works when absolutely perfectly implemented. And this doesn't even work 100% when perfect.
Exactly
WTF! That is realy scary, but thanks for the documentation of this failure! Great to see you in one piece..
I use 36er Cadex with the Conti 5000s TR 25mm at or around 4bar without any problems. But seeing this let me thinking about...
You shound, becouse 25c Cont S TR support only 21mm inner, Cadex have 22,4 mm. Change to 28 and get more Areo and comfort and speed
@@bartoszbruhn4577 lol at "more comfort". You won't feel the difference of 3mm on the road, it's just too little. Especially since tires react too fast to bumps (they compress really fast). Comfort comes from compliance and pretty much the only one that matters is your seatpost. Stop buying into the bs the bike industry wants to sell just so they can skip a bit of money in the manufacturing process
@@pl4free lol just go for 19,4 inner with 25c tubeless to 22,4 inner with 28c tubless and it feels like Gravel. Lol
I've been running tubeless and hookless on road since 2016 and have 10s of thousands of miles with no issues, I do however think there is a issue with the conti 5000S TRs (the only hookless approved tyre conti have) with hookless rims and the bead stretching/not tight enough on certain rim combinations.
Back then I only ever used schwalbe pro one as they were hookless compatible and recommended by the wheel manufacturer (Hunt), never had any issues with them and used to run them around 6 bar so above contis max hookless pressures. I've even inflated them on the bench to over 8 bar with no issues although the current tyres now also advise 5 bar max for hookless.
I have inadvertently blown a conti 5000 of the same hookless rim by inflating it slightly above 5 bar so it seems in my brief experience that the safety margins are a lot smaller on the contis than some other manufacturers and the tolerances not as good (they are easier to fit than pro ones....), this combined with the 5bar max on most tyres when on hookless rims really means that 28mm I think are the smallest most riders should consider to leave some margin for inflation pressures at normal rider weight. I agree though hookless rims don't really seem fit for purpose and especially now they have appeared on a number of road bikes as standard fitment so if you take a normal leisure rider who doesn't necessary understand the issues with over inflation and maybe just inflates them to they are firm with a cheap pump with no gauge could quite easily create a dangerous situation.
Interesting that you also blew one off at around the 5 bar mark. You would have thought that these would have been safely tested up to at least 7 bar to allow for variations in temperature and impacts, etc.
It could be a manufacturing problem with the rim our tire,
this one did age well - I am using hookless/tubeless on gravel and MTB, but will keep my DTSwiss carbon rims with hooks for racing....
Hookless on race bikes could work if the tolerances of the tyres (and rims!) would be better controlled, but even in a "classic" setup, I often have issues with one tyre to get it on the rim, and formally same tyre slips on easy... tyre producers need to fix this prior to continuing the journey into hookless!
Yes, some tyre makers are better than others....
WTF indeed! I'm all about new technology but I HATE hookless rims! I have heard so many horror stories but you're the first I've seen able to replicate this on camera! Even more scary that this happens at 5 bar which is not that much pressure... I regularly ride near 6 bar!
Curious if the rear tire was as easy to mount as the front? Seems you make a point saying how easy it was to mount the front tire, and my experience with hookless has been that's they're a bear to get on. I can generally mount tires with just my thumbs on hooked rime, my hookless rims have snapped multiple blue plastic Park tire wrenches and I typically need to use the big heavy Pedro's lever.
Yes, the rear was fairly easy too. If you need to use big metal levers on delicate carbon rims (in order to mount hookless tyres) then I would say that is another safety hazard and not at all user friendly.
GP5000 25mm is listed as not compatible in zipp's hookless compatibility chart. Properly with good reason 😊
Good find. Where is compatibility chart? Thank you
The old TL is, the TR is not. So the TR should work fine.
That’s mental!!! As a heavy rider myself at 90kg I would without doubt have inflated those to the max psi. Scare to think how easy it would be to roll the tire off the rim in corners at lower pressures.
A nice experiment to try on these would be to mount them with a latex or TPU tube and inflate to 120 psi and leave them for a few days to see if they will jump off the rim. If it does, suspect that the tire or rim is not properly sized.
I'm sorry, I don't follow your argument. The pressure forces within the tire stay the same whether it's via a bladder or not.
Just get some DuraAce C50's or C35's. Great wheels and HOOKED.
Or tubular
Im over Here on my Hooked Dt swiss Arc 1100 Dicut - and super happy that Im on old tech😂🙌 happy that you didnt Exp the blowout out riding🙏🙏🙏
scary to see this but i have a zipp 404 firecrest and my pressure is 65 psi in front and 70(5 bar) at the back. been using it for a year already and this has never happened to me. my tires are pirelli pzero tlr sl 28c.
There is always risk. But the hooked design has no similar risk.
I have zipp 303 firecrest and my pressure is 65 psi too based on the sram tire pressure calculator. I have been riding this setting for a year and no issues.
This happened to me as well. Zipp 353 nsw with the same tire. We were parked at a restaurant, and it blew off the rim just sitting there.
I’m always one who loves new tech, but I have zero inclination to go hookless on road bikes!
Love my hookless wheels. I just don't run them over 60psi.
Exactly, I always love a new bike tech, but I will never change my hooked rims and latex tubes and I run 32mm tyres on road.
@martinkroutil it won't be long before quality clinchers are no longer being manufactured. There will heavy/slow, low end tires for at least a couple decades though
@@martinkroutil I’m happy trying tubeless, although I’m on my first ever tubeless set up so time will tell if I stick with it. But I consider that a question of faff, hookless to me just doesn’t seem to offer any advantage to me yet limits (quite significantly!) what I can do with tyre and pressure choice
@@veganpotterthevegan given tubeless tyres are clinchers I can’t see a time in the near future that they’ll stop being made! Unless there’s a sudden weird swing back to tubulars 😂😂
Is this the same bike industry that is telling me that I am making myself less safe if I don't use hydraulic disc brakes on my road bike?
Of course they are.
Thanks for sharing. Best wishes.
I’ve told this story many times on various forums. I was parked up at a food stop about 2 years ago. There were various bikes lined up against a wall while people were getting their food and drinks . I heard a very loud bang, looked round and a rear tyre had spontaneously blown clean off the rim on one of the bikes and there was sealant everywhere. We all gasped in disbelief at what had happened. I asked the bike owner and they told me they were running hookless rims. If that had happened on the road at any speed it would have caused the rider to loose control and crash almost certainly resulting in injury. From that day on I swore I would never run hookless rims and would recommend my mates not to.
I have ZIPP 303se. No problems with Pro One tyres. You’ve had a faulty batch of tyres. Hookless are perfectly safe.
There are many videos online across multiple wheel and tyre brands.
This happened to a rider in the Giro Donne, while in a race. 5 Bar is too much for a hookless TL. Hookless is supposed to be used for high volume, low pressure tires, such as in gravel and mountain, where the pressure is typically below 3 bar. Unfortunately, tire manufacturers and rim makers wanted to extend hookless to road, where the pressures are above 4 bar. It could be what is happening in this case is that the sealant is acting as a lubricant on the rim and is preventing the tire from staying on the rim or that the tire or rim are not properly sized.
But I agree, this is a totally flawed system for road.
This was like watching one of those suspenseful submarine movies where they dive down to the depth limit to escape enemy destroyers and the boat is creaking, crew is sweating, bolts start popping out and pipes burst and hiss. Then a loud depth charge explosion rattles the crew more but they get away. You found the limit but fortunately not at 80 kmh down a descent.
Yeah, what a fustercluck the industry has created.
Is that disc brake rub I am hearing while fiddling with the valve?
Yeah, disc brakes eh?! The rear is a bit tight.
As a professional bike mechanic, i look at hookless rims and never would ride it....
The problem with hookless rims is that it relies way too heavily on the tire bead having zero stretch. If you get a defective tire, or the tire gets compromised over time, this is how it will fail. I'd bet that the front tire had a manufacturing defect, and the rear tire wouldn't do the same, but it's a matter of chance, and there is no way to tell by inspecting it.
The setup I've been able use with confidence is gp5000 s tr 28mm tires on 24mm ID hooked rims, with inserts, at ~60psi/4bar. This is after I had a front blowout last year on the same rims and Vittoria Corsas, no inserts, that landed me in the hospital with some broken bones.
The safest solution, and probably the lightest, too would be a tubeless tubular construction. Challange actually makes one, but it's for CX.
How about just using hooked rims...like what's been done for decades? Hookless is a lazy cost saving measure from the manufacturers and a dangerous one.
@johnnycab8986 As I mentioned in my first comment. Last year, I had a blowout on a hooked setup and much less pressure, too. Hooked rims are not good enough for tubeless tires either. It works with tubes, but it doesn't do much for blowouts on tubeless, and that's why I like to use inserts.
@johnnycab8986 its not like tires haven't blown off of hooked rims
Tubular has always and will always be the gold standard
@rattila13 tires come off of rims with tubes too. The advantage with tubeless(insert or not) is that you have more time to address a flat in nearly ass scenarios while a disproportionate number of tubed flats are immediate or close to immediate.
Not an expert in Continental for this particular reason - their bead are crap and they blow out. The new S TR is apprently Hookless compatible. Did you use the latest gen?
Not sure, but bought new in Summer of 23.
What can I say - buyer beware. The cycling community knew hookless rims are dangerous for years. Just watch the pros race. van Vleuten blew her tire out in the world championship last year just by hitting a curb at 5 kph and broke her elbow. Most wheel manufacturers have a money back guarantee, so you should exercise this and get Winspace or Elite wheelset (both hooked rims). I use latex inner tubes because I don't want the hassle of sealant and i like riding at 80 psi. But you can set these up as tubeless if you want. And both have a money back guarantee so there are no risks.
unless you break your elbow... Money back for that... probably not.
It's not like we haven't seen tubulars roll off of rims just by turning with them.
She would've crashed no matter what tyre she was using. Big power output and dropping the chain was the cause of the crash.
Brilliant insight mate. Thanks for the heads up. The argument will be a faulty tyre or wheel or even tape etc. Try the rear and let’s see.
Tempted to try rear, but my head can't handle another blowout! Setup on the rear felt EXACTLY the same as front, so I'm thinking it would go too.