Bike industry can't hit some basic tolerances. Again! Kudos to Conti. Shows the ignorance of EL - adding tape still leaves the wall height issue, where the rim is blowing over. It's almost as if they don't understand.
Having tight tolerances where if you fall out of spec you have a potentially deadly mode of failure, is just a non acceptable system. Hookless tubeless if it doesn't fall to the UCI will fall to lawsuits in the US now that the catastrophic failure mode, with narrow tolerances and marketing at out of standard spec is in the spotlight. @PeakTorque
Oh they they can hit basic tolerances, problem is when you're talking about .5-1mm of tolerance, that's just far too small of a variance to make millions of tires. Need more safety margin for sure. Hooked tires for life.
What a completely pointless and illuminating situation. You said it, HOOKLESS IS A MINE FIELD. This is such a clear money grab "tech" for the manufacturers. There is absolutely NO REASON to chase some perceived performance gain at the cost of safety. How completely absurd, I'm shocked the dangerous product is even permissible for consumer sale.
The higher the volume/lower the pressure, the better. As a shop, we could only really get behind mountain and cx for hookless as it provided a strong rim for any rim strikes. Thats it. If i recall, hookless was originally conceived to give more material for caliper brakes to put heat into i.e. keep the carbons resin from melting and even that was for mountain. Once disc arrived en masse, hookless was no longer needed so how we all got to hookless for reasonably high pressure/low volume tires.. who knows. Fantastic vids, love that it showed a resolution, super cool. Cheers.
I don't see a benefit of not having hooks. It's a safety critical interface. What can I gain by upping the odds of a tyre and rim not having such a strong joint?
Thanks for the update. Really respect Continental for really digging into what caused this. That is an amazing, detailed forensic analysis. They genuinely seem invested in their products. Hope you get a satisfactory resolution from Extralite. Also proves what muppets some internet "experts" are. Hope you get some apologies from them as well!
Well what do you expect really? Continental is a big multinational that has much more to lose from bad publicity that a small boutique wheels maker whose name today is Extralite, tomorrow-Shmectralite, the day after-who knows. BTW my first reaction upon seeing the original vid was: it is not the tires, it is the wheels.
@@tonyg3091Bbig companies are more reliables because they have more to lose? Interesting. Ahhhhh Shimano? Enron? The entire oil industry? Perdue Pharmacy? Goldman Sacks? Dozens of major banks and investment firms? Monsanto. I’ll stop. There’s not enough time left in my life to list them all.
Great report and great video! Also, not really surprising. As an automotive engineer myself, I expected nothing less from Continental. They do work in all kind of industries and they know what they are doing. On the other hand Extralite seems to be pretty inline with other companies in the cycling industry: utterly incompetent
Cool it people. Today this happened to me with my Hooked Hunt Aerodynamicist rim on Pirelli P Zero tubeless at 6.5 bars. I parked the bike and 2 seconds later huge bang, explosion. Sealant everywhere and the tire off the rim completely. No damage on the tire or the rim. Put right back on and inflated it at a bit lower pressure and went riding. Absolutely no idea why it happened. Hooked rim, tire pumped to 6.5 bars (specs allow 7.5 pressure). When I rode hookless that never happened to me. I've been riding this setup for the entire season, around 4K miles and never had any kind of problem like this today.
Thank you for the detailed follow-up! This confirms again that tubeless and hookless rims are not suitable for road race wheels even though companies like Zipp and Cadex seem to be doing a better job because they can deliver tubeless wheels as a system (wheel+tire). As a consumer, I want flexibility and choice at a reasonable price and so getting locked into a particular vendor is not an option for me. The other issue with tubeless is that they're 40% heavier and far more expensive than equivalent clincher tires. For example, a pair of 700x28 GP 5000 with a 36g RideNow TPU tube weighs 220g less than a GP 5000 TRS setup. That's quite significantly given that rotating mass matters a lot at the wheels.
You seem to be conflating tubeless and hookless. Tubeless with hooked rims have been around a very long time (especially in MTB) and I don't ever recall hearing about a blow out.
I'm aware of the differences and maybe I didn't express myself clearly enough. And I also know many happy riders that are using tubeless on road wheels. For me personally, even if the hookless rim issues will be worked out over time, the weight penalty, higher price point and maintenance issues associated with going tubeless are not worth it for the type of riding I do. But I fully respect everyone's personal preference and trade-offs they're willing to make.
@@vincentohanlonToday this happened to me with my Hooked Hunt Aerodynamicist rim on Pirelli P Zero tubeless at 6.5 bars. I parked the bike and 2 seconds later huge bang, explosion. Sealant everywhere and the tire off the rim completely. No damage on the tire or the rim. Put right back on and inflated it at a bit lower pressure and went riding. Absolutely no idea why it happened. Hooked rim, tire pumped to 6.5 bars (specs allow 7.5 pressure). When I rode hookless that never happened to me. I've been riding this setup for the entire season, around 4K miles and never had any kind of problem like this today.
@@shadowsun33 Same thing happened to me with my gravel tires pumped up to 40 psi on a hooked rim running tubeless. Bike was just hang up in the garage when it happened. After it blew off, the tire bead was damage so I got the tire replaces with warranty because they were fairly new.
Same thing happened to me yesterday on my Zipp404s with the S TR tyre as well. Thank you so much for doing this video. I’m thinking of switching to a tube tyre now since I now will probably always worry if this will happen again while riding.
@@CyclespeedToursCool it people. Today this happened to me with my Hooked Hunt Aerodynamicist rim on Pirelli P Zero tubeless at 6.5 bars. I parked the bike and 2 seconds later huge bang, explosion. Sealant everywhere and the tire off the rim completely. No damage on the tire or the rim. Put right back on and inflated it at a bit lower pressure and went riding. Absolutely no idea why it happened. Hooked rim, tire pumped to 6.5 bars (specs allow 7.5 pressure). When I rode hookless that never happened to me. I've been riding this setup for the entire season, around 4K miles and never had any kind of problem like this today.
@@CyclespeedTours Oh no, they're definitely hooked. Aerodynamicist 4454. Well, we figured it out just a couple hours ago that I mistakenly used folding clincher P Zero as tubeless and of course the bead and the sidewalls are not built for tubeless setup, so the tire blew off the rim. I ran this setup for over 2K miles, some crazy descents, so definitely a testament to how amazing the Pirellis are that the non-tubeless tire having no tube inside to support the sidewalls and its bead handled even 40+ mph technical twisty descents without failure. But the principle of my case is still a valid point that it all comes down to using the proper tire that the rim is built for. You can easily use hookless and they're perfectly safe as long as the tire is the proper tire or you can even use 'safer' hooked rim and be in grave danger not being saved by the hooks when using the tire that the rim doesn't support it. However, in your case I listened the specs of the rim were off the ETRTO standards...well, duh no rim would be safe outside the standards, which makes the claims that hookless are dangerous simply because they are hookless and having no hook, is nonsense.
@@shadowsun33 There are many, many examples of hookless tyre blow offs, not just mine. You used the wrong tyre and got away with it. It is very easy to use the wrong tyre with hookless and there is no hook there to give you some safety margin. If your Hunt wheel had been hookless then I suspect that tyre would have blown off immediately.
Their solution is bonkers ... just build wheels to standards and ETRTO specs including pressure recommendations within specs and everything is fine instead of bodging wheels together to make things work.
Was looking at Extralite rims but no longer! Their attitude is unacceptable and their hookless rims are not fit for purpose. Will continue sticking with hooked clinchers! Thanks for shining a light on this issue.
I just commented 5 minutes ago on your first video, then I just saw this. Sorry. Interesting results from Continental. It confirms my experience with tubeless. You have know which tire and wheel combo's work and pay close attention to fit. If the tires go on easy, that's a red flag. That said, it's not for everyone. I'm a small rider so I've been lucky. If you're a bigger rider riding at higher pressures it could be challenging. Your conclusions about the industry are bang on. There needs to be a standard. Excellent pos with lots of learning for anyone considering these type of wheels. Cheers.
Very true, and if the bike owner is careful then should be no issues. But when these wheels start to filter down to the 2nd hand market to less serious riders, then I predict problems because they will just fit whatever tyre they have to hand, not realizing the various danger issues.
Continental have confirmed in the lab these wheels are not fit for purpose. Not only should you get a rull refund, but that wheel manufacturer should recall their wheels, stop selling that model and redesign it to work with current tyres. If they don't, they are content to be criminally negligent in the aim of making profits. I'll never buy that brand now. Thank you for sharing.
Cool it people. Today this happened to me with my Hooked Hunt Aerodynamicist rim on Pirelli P Zero tubeless at 6.5 bars. I parked the bike and 2 seconds later huge bang, explosion. Sealant everywhere and the tire off the rim completely. No damage on the tire or the rim. Put right back on and inflated it at a bit lower pressure and went riding. Absolutely no idea why it happened. Hooked rim, tire pumped to 6.5 bars (specs allow 7.5 pressure). When I rode hookless that never happened to me. I've been riding this setup for the entire season, around 4K miles and never had any kind of problem like this today.
I use Zipp 404 Firecrest on my Pinarello & Cadex 65 on my Cannondale Systemsix. Both are hookless and I've never had a problem. I use Conti ASTR 5000's on the Pinarello and a Cadex Aero 25mm for the front with a Goodyear F1 28mm on the rear. I found the 25mm Goodyear on the front puncture way to easy. The Cadex has been bulletproof.
Just tired to get a press fit replaced with a screw together (Wheel manufacturing) and found the press fit faces are not a proper size! Blinking Orro. Obly BB that will (hopefully) fit is an FSA and the old one only lasted 800 miles! The bike industry used to be a lot better. Modern bikes are so tempremental and so disposable. It's just pathetic.
Cool it people. Today this happened to me with my Hooked Hunt Aerodynamicist rim on Pirelli P Zero tubeless at 6.5 bars. I parked the bike and 2 seconds later huge bang, explosion. Sealant everywhere and the tire off the rim completely. No damage on the tire or the rim. Put right back on and inflated it at a bit lower pressure and went riding. Absolutely no idea why it happened. Hooked rim, tire pumped to 6.5 bars (specs allow 7.5 pressure). When I rode hookless that never happened to me. I've been riding this setup for the entire season, around 4K miles and never had any kind of problem like this today.
Thank you very much for sharing your experience man! I own a Giant TCR with hookless rims, I was very scared after your first video, now I feel more confident hoping Giant wheels are built better. Anyway I'm going to change wheels when I could afford the expense an going back to hooked rims for sure!
@@user-jr3hp9bd9h Are you confident in the accuracy of your pump? If you leave your bike in the sun how much psi will you gain? If you weigh 80kg+ on a 25mm tyre then 73psi is quite a low pressure.
You said dont go over 6 bar in your comment, but the standard says dont go over 5 bar…why would recommend to go over the standard after you alteady had a bad experience with hookless while within the 5 bar parameter? I dont understand?
Cool it people. Today this happened to me with my Hooked Hunt Aerodynamicist rim on Pirelli P Zero tubeless at 6.5 bars. I parked the bike and 2 seconds later huge bang, explosion. Sealant everywhere and the tire off the rim completely. No damage on the tire or the rim. Put right back on and inflated it at a bit lower pressure and went riding. Absolutely no idea why it happened. Hooked rim, tire pumped to 6.5 bars (specs allow 7.5 pressure). When I rode hookless that never happened to me. I've been riding this setup for the entire season, around 4K miles and never had any kind of problem like this today.
A few years back I decided to try 115 PSI in my tyres on my lite road bike. This is a conventional wheelset tubes etc. I was going up a long steep hill near home when the front tyre jumped off the rim, the inner tube expanded out to around 2 foot in dia and exploded, all in a split second. I normally descend this hill at speeds approaching 45 mph. If the tyre had left the rim on the way down that hill, I doubt if I would be alive today. I have never raised my tyres above 80 PSI since. There are a load of innovations now in bike tech that I would not want, ever, some because they introduce complexity where there was simplicity and others due to the possibly fatal consequences of failure, such as carbon steerer's, handlebars etc.
Thanks for the update. Simply reconfirms the fact that hookless should be avoided. Imagine being leaned over on a road on the inside lane with traffic coming the other way. Not worth the risk…
Cool it people. Today this happened to me with my Hooked Hunt Aerodynamicist rim on Pirelli P Zero tubeless at 6.5 bars. I parked the bike and 2 seconds later huge bang, explosion. Sealant everywhere and the tire off the rim completely. No damage on the tire or the rim. Put right back on and inflated it at a bit lower pressure and went riding. Absolutely no idea why it happened. Hooked rim, tire pumped to 6.5 bars (specs allow 7.5 pressure). When I rode hookless that never happened to me. I've been riding this setup for the entire season, around 4K miles and never had any kind of problem like this today.
Very good you contacted Contental and did all this investigation. Your conclusions are right, why introducing possible unsafe technology. Wonder what setup you are using at this moment?
@@CyclespeedTours Another source of error from hookless setup could be increased ambient temperatures. Materials tend to get softer at increased temperatures.
I really like the comparison with airplanes and motorsport - where you can buy anything without thinking about whether it will be compatible or not. Jokes aside, I've been riding hookless for over three years now on all three of my bikes. I have used 10 different sets of tires without any problems with the wheels. Gravel wheels, on which I have not put MTB tires but relatively thin gravel, got a particularly heavy load. The road wheels also went through some serious abuse and speed. I installed all tires except one myself. It was with the 25mm tire that there were the biggest problems with mounting. One side did not want to lie on the 65mm wheel and blew off several times when blowing air. After re-adjusting the tire several times, it finally fitted correctly and still rolls well today after 2.5 years. To some extent, tubeless fluid sticks the tire to the wheel. All tires comply with the manufacturer's recommendations and I can't say that it would have been very difficult for me to go through the models that fit my wheels before purchasing. In my case, I have noticed that high-end carbon wheels are compatible with almost all high-end tires, which seems quite logical that if you use good wheels, you should also buy good tires for them. And I say almost all high-level tires, because surely someone will find some off-brand expensive tires and say that they are not suitable... In any case, I don't see a reason for all this fuss about hookless wheels. I happily buy bikes and parts from my nearest bike shop/repair shop who take responsibility for the products they sell and if I bought these things on the internet and assembled them myself I would count on a certain margin of error. In addition, I do not trust all these semi-manufacturers and their quality control. Try better wheels with good tires and if you don't like it or something doesn't work, then you'll just have to drive the "good old reliable" hooked. I recommend trying Cadex 65mm with Continental 5000 STR. My local bike shop lets you try these wheels on your bike before you buy. Drive at least 100km and understand whether you like it or not without paying €3,000 for a cat in a bag.
Cool it people. Today this happened to me with my Hooked Hunt Aerodynamicist rim on Pirelli P Zero tubeless at 6.5 bars. I parked the bike and 2 seconds later huge bang, explosion. Sealant everywhere and the tire off the rim completely. No damage on the tire or the rim. Put right back on and inflated it at a bit lower pressure and went riding. Absolutely no idea why it happened. Hooked rim, tire pumped to 6.5 bars (specs allow 7.5 pressure). When I rode hookless that never happened to me. I've been riding this setup for the entire season, around 4K miles and never had any kind of problem like this today.
going hookless for road wheels is crazy, I would have no peace of mind knowing the wheel could potentially blow off at any moment, if I was to do it I would pump the tire up 2--3 bar more then I intend to use and let it sit overnight at the very least
Re the proposed solution to add wraps: if you do that to put the effective bead seat diameter (BSD) within spec, you are also cutting into the G-height. That's the height of the rim sidewall above the bead seat. The nominal ETRTO specs are 6mm. Extralite already built the wheels to an apparent nominal dimension of 5mm. If you add 1mm of tubeless tape, you cut the effective G-height down to 4mm. I am not an engineer, but this does seem risky, considering that the consequence is the tire blowing off, possibly while in motion. Also, re Zipp's compatibility chart: by the current ETRTO standards, 28mm is also out of spec with 25mm internal width hookless. Now, ETRTO did allow companies to grandfather their wheels in, and I think this was provided they had explicitly tested for compatibility. That probably won't be allowed going forward; the official minimum is 29mm tires on 25mm hookless. However, basically nobody makes 29mm tires right now.
With tubeless wheels, one just needs to know what they’re doing and stay clear from small manufacturers. The more users one has the higher the chances of finding mistakes. Simple as that. If theres a right wheel and right tire, tubeless beats any other tire in every way. I run Zipp 454’s and Roval CLX 64’s with 28mil conti tire and have had one flat in 5 years (around 12000km a year). Riding around 4.2bar is fast, comfortable and the grip in corners is off the charts.
Thanks for this update. I wonder if measuring the circumference of the wheel (and calculating the diameter) wouldn't be a more meaningful way of assessing the fit between the tire and wheel?
Yes, and that's why the ERTRO exists to lay down those standard dimensions. But it seems that achieving them is not always so easy....and with hookless, and slight deviation from the correct spec can result in disaster. Non hookless and tubs are not so sensitive to anomalies.
Have a look at Giant's table of hookless compatible tyres... Their own brand tyres are often only compatible in one width (the same model with another width isnt marked as compatible). It's ridiculous... Can you even expect such high tolerances in rim manufacturing - 0,5 mm here 0,5 mm there and you're dicing with death...
Good follow up. Ive already commented on the other videos but this kind of thing makes me angry. It IS very difficult to get resin products to conform to exact tolerances, you need to pay close attention to temperature and cure times ( among a myriad of other factors). Knowing this, why in the world run with a design that requires such precise accuracy to function properly at all, with zero redundancy or safety built in to the design? Why reinvent the wheel? This is all done to save the manufacturers money with simpler, cheaper molds and shorter work times. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with improving the design or function of the rim. As an industrial and product designer I find this trend toward hookless nonsensical and, given the extremely high number of failures, unconscionable.
Wow shows the discrepancies in the tyres versus the rim. I always ride tubeless ready hooked wheels no rim tape needed (Dura Ace C36) I couldn’t even get the GP 5000 on my wheels so they lie in a pile way to stiff Cool Door Handle Too
more an MTB/gravel guy, but got a Simploin Kiaro (from 2013) "by accident" from a very good friend, who did not look into the specs (we both have 94.5 inner leg length, but I am 189, hes is 209 cm tall => the Kiaro has a very relaxed STR, which even with a very long stem made the bike useless to him), so have a road bike (again) - luckily, this one is fit with nice DTSwiss wheels with hooked carbon rims... I have been riding hookless/tubeless for ages on MTBs and gravel, but the high pressures needed for road bikes prevent me from using these options...
To be honest you should get a full refund for the wheels as they are not to spec, its quite shocking really. Hats of to Conti for everything they did great report they make you feel secure using their customers. I wonder if a certain youtube channel will try and make another video saying you had set it up wrong 😂
@CyclespeedTours I was thinking of the ETRTO and the wheels being sold as hookless, but if they are only guidelines perhaps they could get away with being out of the margin of error ?
@@tomrachellesfirstdance7843 The ETRTO guidelines do carry some weight, and it strikes me as very risky to sell a wheel outside of these specs. The margin of error in this case is 0.5mm but Extralite are outside of that.
Hookless has way smaller tolerance margin. Required a higher standard manufacturing process. Giant as an oem themselves has that kind of standard, never heard of any issue from slr or cadex. Smaller hookless wheel company probably having hard time to reach that standard since they are all outsourced and build by some other oem
How on earth does this point you to the problem being a spec? The manufacturer of the wheel is clearly not capable of making a hookless wheel. But that has nothing to do with hookless on the whole.
The crux of this story is right around the 5min mark. If both parties are making tires easier to mount... I've not had any issues with my Extralite 339s and I've been riding them for a good 2 years with Enve SES 29". Although I did notice the tires going on much easier than what I'm used to for tubeless setup...
Cool it people. Today this happened to me with my Hooked Hunt Aerodynamicist rim on Pirelli P Zero tubeless at 6.5 bars. I parked the bike and 2 seconds later huge bang, explosion. Sealant everywhere and the tire off the rim completely. No damage on the tire or the rim. Put right back on and inflated it at a bit lower pressure and went riding. Absolutely no idea why it happened. Hooked rim, tire pumped to 6.5 bars (specs allow 7.5 pressure). When I rode hookless that never happened to me. I've been riding this setup for the entire season, around 4K miles and never had any kind of problem like this today.
On 31 December 1992, Czechoslovakia was peacefully dissolved, with its constituent states becoming the independent states of the Czech Republic and Slovakia.
there was concern from the very start of these hookless rims. still not sure why people still go for it knowing there is risk of a blowout and what more at speed or downhill...
Well impressed with Conti. 😎👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻 So basically they’re saying as long as you use 28mm+ tyres and keep the pressures below 5bar (73.5 psi) we’re good to go? As an engineer I relish this sort of thing, I really do get it…but what about average non engineer Joe? Might be a bit to ask really, as you say considering the safety factors involved. Stick with what you know and understand.😎👍🏻 Absolutely love that door handle @ 10:41 awesome. 🤩 Blessings from Dorset. 🙏😎👍🏻
There is no problem with Giant and cadex wheels. I use 19mm giant carbon hookless wheels with veloflex corsa race tires. Front wheel 5,7 bar rear 6,5 and it is perfect I even tested 7,5 bar without problems. Now I trust giant but you have to use tires approved by them. And veloflex corsa race 25mm tires are amazing much cheaper than conti gp5000 str but far better puncture resistance while not much worse rolling resistance.
Why would any body think hookless is better than hooked in the first place? Hooked rims were absolutely fine, it's just cheaper for the wheel companies to make hookless. Tyre companies must be doing their fucking nut.
Surprise! Continental, the multinational juggernaut is the stand-up company and the boutique wheelset maker is selling shit out of spec. Shocker. Noticed a while ago that you pulled the original vid. Now we know why. Thanks for sharing. This kind of stuff is treacherous for us new peeps on the cycling scene.
Why do you reach that conclusion? A more correct answer is to buy wheels only from quality manufacturers. Don’t buy cheap Chinese wheels or stuff from niche manufacturers. The system is good if you know what you are doing, use the right wheels and the right tyres - maybe not for newbies, but experienced riders who take care of their equipment choices. Going back to tubulars cannot be the right answer - especially for newbies!!
@rosomak8244 nothing to do with money. Hookless combined with tubeless is a very good system if you choose the right wheels with the right tyres - system is lighter, more aero, allows lower tyre pressure, means you roll faster and more comfortably with no punctures and no roadside tube changing faff. It takes time though, there are certain techniques to installation to master and what to do when a puncture won't seal on its own, also what seslant to use is also critical. Its just like the endless silly rim / disc debate where some luddites cling to the old style rim brakes mainly because they haven't invested the time needed to properly understand how to live day to day with disc brakes.
@@CG-99 OK let's see, a) lighter - if so, the difference is really tiny, b) more aero - only if tyre perfectly matched to rim, just like any other setup, c) roll faster - depends on so many things, and all being equal, higher pressure = lower Crr. d) no punctures - I got a puncture which had trouble sealing in just the 300kms I used the rear wheel. Never would have happened with a tub (new tyre). I have reluctantly adopted disc brakes with all their foibles, but the difference is that a rubbing disc or lack of power won't kill you, a tyre blow off might.
This should be a product recall and full replacement or refund and potentially legal action as they have sold something they say is ETRTO that isn’t, and it’s dangerous
Kudos to Conti for investigating this. It really is best to leave hookless aside for another few years and see if A) it just disappears again or B) bike manufacturers actually manage to agree on and adhere to tolerances. Until then, it's just a gamble with your health on the line. No thanks for me. And I do ride hookless rims on my gravel bike.
So the tyre should be 28mm or wider for hookless rims as I look at your chart, and then it probably works. (Ehm still some more exceptions up to 32mm) Good to know thanks a lot!!
Much respect to Continental for a thorough investigation. That said: if you are relying on so small a margin, I´d not buy into the hookless technology at all. Not only for safety reasons but for the versatility and freedom of tyre choice!
Just as we move away from press fit bottom brackets we had to bring out hookless rims. Hookless rims are a poor solution for and industry that struggles with QC and tolerances. At least a poor fitting BB does not put your life at risk. Just because something is possible does not make it a good idea. Riders need to consider the risks and outcomes.
The problem so far, that I could tell from multiple videos about 'hookless blow off', is that hookless tech is totally relying on compatibility of numbers instead of having a safe-guard mechanism like the hook itself. If you buy from less well-known brands, or you are layze enough that you don't want to carefully follow the instructions, you will have blow off. I am running 404 with gp5000str just fine so far for 2 years. The lesson I ve learned is that you should not mount and dismount the tire frequently to avoid wearing the bead from time to time. And be sure to buy from trusted brands that has using this tech for years and it is implemented also on GT races.
It's not like hooked tires/rims have always been a prefect match. I can't count the number of times I've needed 2 layers of thick cotton tape to seat a tire. I've also had beads totally break due to being undersized. Tubeless hookless is far ahead of where hooked clinchers clinchers were even 20yrs into their existence. *I can't fathom installing and removing a tire enough to wear the bead down during the life of a tire. There's nearly no friction to wear it down and it's barely moving on the bead seat when it is moving.
For the beginner rider, tubulars are way too much of a faff to get right. Hookless is not ready for prime time. I'm sticking with hooked tubeless clinchers for the time being. BTW, at 75 kg, I'm running 55/60 on Vittoria Corsa N.EXT tires mounted on Reynolds AR-29 wheels. I tried 65/70 and ended up sliding out on a turn and breaking ribs. Lastly. cRR isn't the statistic I look for as you can slide tires on any tarmac/concrete. I look for stickiness and how much power will transfer given the road surface and condition.
Good points; hooked tubeless is a good way to go for most. But tape makes tubulars much easier to install. It's true that Crr is not everything - grip is also very important. If I know I will be descending a lot I go down to 5.5 to 6 bar
@@CyclespeedTours tape helps with mounting tubulars, but it's still a faff to get the tire seated correctly. I know riders who are riding them and have done so for decades who still encounter issues mounting tubulars.
@@jamesmckenzie3532 I leave the backing tape on and inflate to 2 bar which usually aligns the tyre nicely. Then remove backing tape and inflate to 10 bar which fully straightens it.
Great research by conti, shame on extralite, the ETRO specs are there for a reason. Imagine car wheel manufacturers start doing this to make it easier to mount tires, insane! You conclusion is mostly bonkers though, if you want your 8 bars tubes then why the hell did you get hookless rims.
Not 8 bar, 6. I was prepared to try 5 bar hookless to see what it felt like. I never really got much chance to ride at 5 bar though, because the tyre blew off! I did ride a bit afterwards at 4.3 ish, and it definitely felt too squishy to me.
"Kinda think"?!?!?!? These wheels don't meet the ETRTO specifications. They should be recalled and replaced or full refunds offered. Civil/criminal action should follow if they fail to do this. Anyone injured by their sub-standard product should sue the hell out of them. After years in bike retail I'll never understand the sort of "Stockholm syndrome" cycling consumers seem to have for companies who make huge profits by letting them (the consumer) perform the R & D on their (often) substandard products. SRAM is example #1 IMHO.
This is further evidence of hookless being crazy. Imagine the average starter cyclist understanding any of this. Tyres staying on the rims is about rule number 1 in cycling.
Ok. Today this happened to me with my Hooked Hunt Aerodynamicist rim on Pirelli P Zero tubeless at 6.5 bars. I parked the bike and 2 seconds later huge bang, explosion. Sealant everywhere and the tire off the rim completely. No damage on the tire or the rim. Put right back on and inflated it at a bit lower pressure and went riding. Absolutely no idea why it happened. Hooked rim, tire pumped to 6.5 bars (specs allow 7.5 pressure). When I rode hookless that never happened to me. I've been riding this setup for the entire season, around 4K miles and never had any kind of problem like this today.
I just cannot buy into tubeless let alone hookless. The weight savings of tubeless is actually a weight gain when sealant is taken into account. The power advantage of tubeless is is .05 Watts, for me not worth the hassle. I also use Mr Tuffy liners, have a flat maybe once every 20 years, if not less. I am 70 still ride 50 km a day, mainly gravel, and road. I have never had a clincher that came anywhere close to the control I get from a tubby, unfortunately these days there is too much debris on the road and trails to make tubbies a viable option, get too many flats.
Hats off to Continental for the investigation and report!
Indeed, they have been excellent.
Reinforces my decision to run Contis
Been running conti’s on my car for years and just ordered my first set for my bike. Exciting see see how this goes
Yeah, watching the original video my money was on the faulty wheel.
Bike industry can't hit some basic tolerances. Again! Kudos to Conti. Shows the ignorance of EL - adding tape still leaves the wall height issue, where the rim is blowing over. It's almost as if they don't understand.
It's because there's a new wheel company every week
Having tight tolerances where if you fall out of spec you have a potentially deadly mode of failure, is just a non acceptable system. Hookless tubeless if it doesn't fall to the UCI will fall to lawsuits in the US now that the catastrophic failure mode, with narrow tolerances and marketing at out of standard spec is in the spotlight. @PeakTorque
Oh they they can hit basic tolerances, problem is when you're talking about .5-1mm of tolerance, that's just far too small of a variance to make millions of tires.
Need more safety margin for sure.
Hooked tires for life.
@@cloudsmith7803dude 0.5 a mill may as well be 100 meters in engineering
Great video! I really appreciate your follow up and your conclusions are spot on. Hookless seems to be pointless at best and dangerous at worst.
What a completely pointless and illuminating situation. You said it, HOOKLESS IS A MINE FIELD. This is such a clear money grab "tech" for the manufacturers. There is absolutely NO REASON to chase some perceived performance gain at the cost of safety. How completely absurd, I'm shocked the dangerous product is even permissible for consumer sale.
The higher the volume/lower the pressure, the better. As a shop, we could only really get behind mountain and cx for hookless as it provided a strong rim for any rim strikes. Thats it.
If i recall, hookless was originally conceived to give more material for caliper brakes to put heat into i.e. keep the carbons resin from melting and even that was for mountain. Once disc arrived en masse, hookless was no longer needed so how we all got to hookless for reasonably high pressure/low volume tires.. who knows. Fantastic vids, love that it showed a resolution, super cool. Cheers.
Thanks!
Appreciate you sharing your findings. I will never buy a hookless rim, this is a point in case as to why.
Agree totally. It just goes to show how flawed the concept is with rim and tyre manufacturers that can't be trusted to work.
Exactly! I will NEVER buy hookless.
Extralite built a wheel out of spec and you blame the … spec?! Alright.
Why? Just learn and understand basic specifications. There is risk in anything if you don't adhere to specifications. No need to be a fear monger.
I don't see a benefit of not having hooks. It's a safety critical interface. What can I gain by upping the odds of a tyre and rim not having such a strong joint?
Thanks for the update.
Really respect Continental for really digging into what caused this. That is an amazing, detailed forensic analysis. They genuinely seem invested in their products.
Hope you get a satisfactory resolution from Extralite.
Also proves what muppets some internet "experts" are. Hope you get some apologies from them as well!
Very true, thanks.
Well what do you expect really? Continental is a big multinational that has much more to lose from bad publicity that a small boutique wheels maker whose name today is Extralite, tomorrow-Shmectralite, the day after-who knows.
BTW my first reaction upon seeing the original vid was: it is not the tires, it is the wheels.
@@tonyg3091Bbig companies are more reliables because they have more to lose? Interesting. Ahhhhh Shimano? Enron? The entire oil industry? Perdue Pharmacy? Goldman Sacks? Dozens of major banks and investment firms? Monsanto. I’ll stop. There’s not enough time left in my life to list them all.
Great report and great video! Also, not really surprising. As an automotive engineer myself, I expected nothing less from Continental. They do work in all kind of industries and they know what they are doing. On the other hand Extralite seems to be pretty inline with other companies in the cycling industry: utterly incompetent
Totally, the bike industry is pretty much incompetent
Thank you for doing this whole video and great to know Conti is transparent about the whole thing.
Im glad that my zipp 303s didnt kill me yet....Gonna get a hooked wheelset if I buy another. Kudos to conti
Cool it people. Today this happened to me with my Hooked Hunt Aerodynamicist rim on Pirelli P Zero tubeless at 6.5 bars. I parked the bike and 2 seconds later huge bang, explosion. Sealant everywhere and the tire off the rim completely. No damage on the tire or the rim. Put right back on and inflated it at a bit lower pressure and went riding. Absolutely no idea why it happened.
Hooked rim, tire pumped to 6.5 bars (specs allow 7.5 pressure). When I rode hookless that never happened to me. I've been riding this setup for the entire season, around 4K miles and never had any kind of problem like this today.
Thank you for the detailed follow-up! This confirms again that tubeless and hookless rims are not suitable for road race wheels even though companies like Zipp and Cadex seem to be doing a better job because they can deliver tubeless wheels as a system (wheel+tire). As a consumer, I want flexibility and choice at a reasonable price and so getting locked into a particular vendor is not an option for me. The other issue with tubeless is that they're 40% heavier and far more expensive than equivalent clincher tires. For example, a pair of 700x28 GP 5000 with a 36g RideNow TPU tube weighs 220g less than a GP 5000 TRS setup. That's quite significantly given that rotating mass matters a lot at the wheels.
You seem to be conflating tubeless and hookless. Tubeless with hooked rims have been around a very long time (especially in MTB) and I don't ever recall hearing about a blow out.
I'm aware of the differences and maybe I didn't express myself clearly enough. And I also know many happy riders that are using tubeless on road wheels. For me personally, even if the hookless rim issues will be worked out over time, the weight penalty, higher price point and maintenance issues associated with going tubeless are not worth it for the type of riding I do. But I fully respect everyone's personal preference and trade-offs they're willing to make.
@@vincentohanlonToday this happened to me with my Hooked Hunt Aerodynamicist rim on Pirelli P Zero tubeless at 6.5 bars. I parked the bike and 2 seconds later huge bang, explosion. Sealant everywhere and the tire off the rim completely. No damage on the tire or the rim. Put right back on and inflated it at a bit lower pressure and went riding. Absolutely no idea why it happened.
Hooked rim, tire pumped to 6.5 bars (specs allow 7.5 pressure). When I rode hookless that never happened to me. I've been riding this setup for the entire season, around 4K miles and never had any kind of problem like this today.
@@shadowsun33 Same thing happened to me with my gravel tires pumped up to 40 psi on a hooked rim running tubeless. Bike was just hang up in the garage when it happened. After it blew off, the tire bead was damage so I got the tire replaces with warranty because they were fairly new.
What a great video explaining everything that's crucial.
Thanks!
Same thing happened to me yesterday on my Zipp404s with the S TR tyre as well.
Thank you so much for doing this video. I’m thinking of switching to a tube tyre now since I now will probably always worry if this will happen again while riding.
Good to hear other people's experiences. You can still use tubeless, just make sure the wheel is HOOKED !!!
@@CyclespeedToursCool it people. Today this happened to me with my Hooked Hunt Aerodynamicist rim on Pirelli P Zero tubeless at 6.5 bars. I parked the bike and 2 seconds later huge bang, explosion. Sealant everywhere and the tire off the rim completely. No damage on the tire or the rim. Put right back on and inflated it at a bit lower pressure and went riding. Absolutely no idea why it happened.
Hooked rim, tire pumped to 6.5 bars (specs allow 7.5 pressure). When I rode hookless that never happened to me. I've been riding this setup for the entire season, around 4K miles and never had any kind of problem like this today.
@@shadowsun33 are you sure they're hooked, because the website seems to show them as hookless.
@@CyclespeedTours Oh no, they're definitely hooked. Aerodynamicist 4454. Well, we figured it out just a couple hours ago that I mistakenly used folding clincher P Zero as tubeless and of course the bead and the sidewalls are not built for tubeless setup, so the tire blew off the rim. I ran this setup for over 2K miles, some crazy descents, so definitely a testament to how amazing the Pirellis are that the non-tubeless tire having no tube inside to support the sidewalls and its bead handled even 40+ mph technical twisty descents without failure. But the principle of my case is still a valid point that it all comes down to using the proper tire that the rim is built for. You can easily use hookless and they're perfectly safe as long as the tire is the proper tire or you can even use 'safer' hooked rim and be in grave danger not being saved by the hooks when using the tire that the rim doesn't support it. However, in your case I listened the specs of the rim were off the ETRTO standards...well, duh no rim would be safe outside the standards, which makes the claims that hookless are dangerous simply because they are hookless and having no hook, is nonsense.
@@shadowsun33 There are many, many examples of hookless tyre blow offs, not just mine. You used the wrong tyre and got away with it. It is very easy to use the wrong tyre with hookless and there is no hook there to give you some safety margin. If your Hunt wheel had been hookless then I suspect that tyre would have blown off immediately.
Excellent follow up by Conti, I went back to tubes on my road bikes.... so much happier
Their solution is bonkers ... just build wheels to standards and ETRTO specs including pressure recommendations within specs and everything is fine instead of bodging wheels together to make things work.
Thing is Extralite don’t put their wheels on QC /testing before roll out? 😅
Well done for presenting this, still not convinced by Hookless . I feel it is for the manufacturer to make profit over realistic practicalities.
Was looking at Extralite rims but no longer! Their attitude is unacceptable and their hookless rims are not fit for purpose. Will continue sticking with hooked clinchers! Thanks for shining a light on this issue.
Never buying a hookless rim. There is nothing holding the tire on but marketing and 4 leaf clovers.
UCI now investigating.
I just commented 5 minutes ago on your first video, then I just saw this. Sorry. Interesting results from Continental. It confirms my experience with tubeless. You have know which tire and wheel combo's work and pay close attention to fit. If the tires go on easy, that's a red flag. That said, it's not for everyone. I'm a small rider so I've been lucky. If you're a bigger rider riding at higher pressures it could be challenging. Your conclusions about the industry are bang on. There needs to be a standard. Excellent pos with lots of learning for anyone considering these type of wheels. Cheers.
Very true, and if the bike owner is careful then should be no issues. But when these wheels start to filter down to the 2nd hand market to less serious riders, then I predict problems because they will just fit whatever tyre they have to hand, not realizing the various danger issues.
Impressive testing by Continental. I had this pinned on Extralite from the jump with the multiple errors in the documentation.
Continental have confirmed in the lab these wheels are not fit for purpose. Not only should you get a rull refund, but that wheel manufacturer should recall their wheels, stop selling that model and redesign it to work with current tyres. If they don't, they are content to be criminally negligent in the aim of making profits. I'll never buy that brand now. Thank you for sharing.
What Brand were the wheels? I think I missed it
Thanks for sharing this valuable information. I’m never going to buy a hookless wheel! Top man Andrew.
Cheers C!
Cool it people. Today this happened to me with my Hooked Hunt Aerodynamicist rim on Pirelli P Zero tubeless at 6.5 bars. I parked the bike and 2 seconds later huge bang, explosion. Sealant everywhere and the tire off the rim completely. No damage on the tire or the rim. Put right back on and inflated it at a bit lower pressure and went riding. Absolutely no idea why it happened.
Hooked rim, tire pumped to 6.5 bars (specs allow 7.5 pressure). When I rode hookless that never happened to me. I've been riding this setup for the entire season, around 4K miles and never had any kind of problem like this today.
I use Zipp 404 Firecrest on my Pinarello & Cadex 65 on my Cannondale Systemsix. Both are hookless and I've never had a problem. I use Conti ASTR 5000's on the Pinarello and a Cadex Aero 25mm for the front with a Goodyear F1 28mm on the rear. I found the 25mm Goodyear on the front puncture way to easy. The Cadex has been bulletproof.
Hookless is literally just a tool for corporations to decrease manufacturing cost but at the cost of safety.
Damn, it's like press fit BBs all over again, manufacturers can't get tolerances right.
That crank door handle's pretty cool tho.
Glad someone noticed it!
Just tired to get a press fit replaced with a screw together (Wheel manufacturing) and found the press fit faces are not a proper size! Blinking Orro. Obly BB that will (hopefully) fit is an FSA and the old one only lasted 800 miles!
The bike industry used to be a lot better. Modern bikes are so tempremental and so disposable. It's just pathetic.
@@thebrowns5337 My Ostro is quiet about 25% of the time, the rest there is a creak / rub coming from somewhere!
💯HOOKLESS IS JUST NOT SAFE! PERIOD! 💯 Are you willing to take your chance? Up to you.😎
Cool it people. Today this happened to me with my Hooked Hunt Aerodynamicist rim on Pirelli P Zero tubeless at 6.5 bars. I parked the bike and 2 seconds later huge bang, explosion. Sealant everywhere and the tire off the rim completely. No damage on the tire or the rim. Put right back on and inflated it at a bit lower pressure and went riding. Absolutely no idea why it happened.
Hooked rim, tire pumped to 6.5 bars (specs allow 7.5 pressure). When I rode hookless that never happened to me. I've been riding this setup for the entire season, around 4K miles and never had any kind of problem like this today.
Thank you very much for sharing your experience man! I own a Giant TCR with hookless rims, I was very scared after your first video, now I feel more confident hoping Giant wheels are built better. Anyway I'm going to change wheels when I could afford the expense an going back to hooked rims for sure!
I wouldn't worry too much - with Giant you are as safe as you can be. Just don't go over 6 bar or so and you'll be fine.
But the max stated pressure for the standard is 73psi…why would you go over it?
@@user-jr3hp9bd9h Are you confident in the accuracy of your pump? If you leave your bike in the sun how much psi will you gain? If you weigh 80kg+ on a 25mm tyre then 73psi is quite a low pressure.
You said dont go over 6 bar in your comment, but the standard says dont go over 5 bar…why would recommend to go over the standard after you alteady had a bad experience with hookless while within the 5 bar parameter? I dont understand?
@@user-jr3hp9bd9h I need to check again but I’m pretty sure on Giant wheels there are labels with 6-7 bar recommended
So happy I went with hooked rims! Thanks for the video.
Cool it people. Today this happened to me with my Hooked Hunt Aerodynamicist rim on Pirelli P Zero tubeless at 6.5 bars. I parked the bike and 2 seconds later huge bang, explosion. Sealant everywhere and the tire off the rim completely. No damage on the tire or the rim. Put right back on and inflated it at a bit lower pressure and went riding. Absolutely no idea why it happened.
Hooked rim, tire pumped to 6.5 bars (specs allow 7.5 pressure). When I rode hookless that never happened to me. I've been riding this setup for the entire season, around 4K miles and never had any kind of problem like this today.
thanks for taking the time and effort for posting this and running down what happened. Conti for the win,
"you don't know what you're doing!"
Well excuse me since I'm not a f-ing sorcerer!😂 Sounds like keeping tires on these hookless wheels is a task!
A few years back I decided to try 115 PSI in my tyres on my lite road bike. This is a conventional wheelset tubes etc. I was going up a long steep hill near home when the front tyre jumped off the rim, the inner tube expanded out to around 2 foot in dia and exploded, all in a split second. I normally descend this hill at speeds approaching 45 mph. If the tyre had left the rim on the way down that hill, I doubt if I would be alive today. I have never raised my tyres above 80 PSI since. There are a load of innovations now in bike tech that I would not want, ever, some because they introduce complexity where there was simplicity and others due to the possibly fatal consequences of failure, such as carbon steerer's, handlebars etc.
Excellent reporting and follow-up.
a logic and reasonable explanation w D1 and Wallhight, very interesting, thank you for your investigation 👌💪
Thanks for the update. Simply reconfirms the fact that hookless should be avoided. Imagine being leaned over on a road on the inside lane with traffic coming the other way. Not worth the risk…
Cool it people. Today this happened to me with my Hooked Hunt Aerodynamicist rim on Pirelli P Zero tubeless at 6.5 bars. I parked the bike and 2 seconds later huge bang, explosion. Sealant everywhere and the tire off the rim completely. No damage on the tire or the rim. Put right back on and inflated it at a bit lower pressure and went riding. Absolutely no idea why it happened.
Hooked rim, tire pumped to 6.5 bars (specs allow 7.5 pressure). When I rode hookless that never happened to me. I've been riding this setup for the entire season, around 4K miles and never had any kind of problem like this today.
With the advancements made to double adhesive tapes, tubular wheels really make sense. I'm sticking with it.
I see what you did there!!
@@CyclespeedTours took me a second to get that one
Hookless works for car tyres due to the stiffness of the sidewalls. Bicycle tyres are cross-ply with soft sidewalls, it was never going to work well.
True, car and bicycle wheels are light years apart.
@@CyclespeedTours Yes and there is a network of wires running through a car tyre. That would be way too stiff for bikes.
Another thing to note is how wide they compared to the height, it will be virtually impossible to come off with a car.
@@tomrachellesfirstdance7843 yes exactly
Yup, try to break the car tire bead from the rim....they use machines.
Very good you contacted Contental and did all this investigation. Your conclusions are right, why introducing possible unsafe technology. Wonder what setup you are using at this moment?
I eventually switched from tubular to tubeless, but for sure, HOOKED rims!! Very pleased with the setup now.
@@CyclespeedTours Another source of error from hookless setup could be increased ambient temperatures. Materials tend to get softer at increased temperatures.
I really like the comparison with airplanes and motorsport - where you can buy anything without thinking about whether it will be compatible or not. Jokes aside, I've been riding hookless for over three years now on all three of my bikes. I have used 10 different sets of tires without any problems with the wheels. Gravel wheels, on which I have not put MTB tires but relatively thin gravel, got a particularly heavy load. The road wheels also went through some serious abuse and speed. I installed all tires except one myself. It was with the 25mm tire that there were the biggest problems with mounting. One side did not want to lie on the 65mm wheel and blew off several times when blowing air. After re-adjusting the tire several times, it finally fitted correctly and still rolls well today after 2.5 years. To some extent, tubeless fluid sticks the tire to the wheel. All tires comply with the manufacturer's recommendations and I can't say that it would have been very difficult for me to go through the models that fit my wheels before purchasing. In my case, I have noticed that high-end carbon wheels are compatible with almost all high-end tires, which seems quite logical that if you use good wheels, you should also buy good tires for them. And I say almost all high-level tires, because surely someone will find some off-brand expensive tires and say that they are not suitable... In any case, I don't see a reason for all this fuss about hookless wheels. I happily buy bikes and parts from my nearest bike shop/repair shop who take responsibility for the products they sell and if I bought these things on the internet and assembled them myself I would count on a certain margin of error. In addition, I do not trust all these semi-manufacturers and their quality control. Try better wheels with good tires and if you don't like it or something doesn't work, then you'll just have to drive the "good old reliable" hooked. I recommend trying Cadex 65mm with Continental 5000 STR. My local bike shop lets you try these wheels on your bike before you buy. Drive at least 100km and understand whether you like it or not without paying €3,000 for a cat in a bag.
I think hookless is a major accident waiting to happen.
And you are right!
Cool it people. Today this happened to me with my Hooked Hunt Aerodynamicist rim on Pirelli P Zero tubeless at 6.5 bars. I parked the bike and 2 seconds later huge bang, explosion. Sealant everywhere and the tire off the rim completely. No damage on the tire or the rim. Put right back on and inflated it at a bit lower pressure and went riding. Absolutely no idea why it happened.
Hooked rim, tire pumped to 6.5 bars (specs allow 7.5 pressure). When I rode hookless that never happened to me. I've been riding this setup for the entire season, around 4K miles and never had any kind of problem like this today.
going hookless for road wheels is crazy, I would have no peace of mind knowing the wheel could potentially blow off at any moment, if I was to do it I would pump the tire up 2--3 bar more then I intend to use and let it sit overnight at the very least
Good report, thanks for sharing. This is vital information well worth knowing. But yes if everyone just adhered to the standards...
Thanks. Unfortunately, it seems that there are no 'standards' just guidelines.
The slammed stem is definitely the culprit here hahaha
it hurts my back just looking at it
Re the proposed solution to add wraps: if you do that to put the effective bead seat diameter (BSD) within spec, you are also cutting into the G-height. That's the height of the rim sidewall above the bead seat. The nominal ETRTO specs are 6mm. Extralite already built the wheels to an apparent nominal dimension of 5mm. If you add 1mm of tubeless tape, you cut the effective G-height down to 4mm. I am not an engineer, but this does seem risky, considering that the consequence is the tire blowing off, possibly while in motion.
Also, re Zipp's compatibility chart: by the current ETRTO standards, 28mm is also out of spec with 25mm internal width hookless. Now, ETRTO did allow companies to grandfather their wheels in, and I think this was provided they had explicitly tested for compatibility. That probably won't be allowed going forward; the official minimum is 29mm tires on 25mm hookless. However, basically nobody makes 29mm tires right now.
Enve makes 29mm tires.
With tubeless wheels, one just needs to know what they’re doing and stay clear from small manufacturers. The more users one has the higher the chances of finding mistakes. Simple as that. If theres a right wheel and right tire, tubeless beats any other tire in every way. I run Zipp 454’s and Roval CLX 64’s with 28mil conti tire and have had one flat in 5 years (around 12000km a year). Riding around 4.2bar is fast, comfortable and the grip in corners is off the charts.
I have no issues with tubeless, but hookless yes.
Yes and you weight 60kg. Not your average cyclist.
Thanks for this update. I wonder if measuring the circumference of the wheel (and calculating the diameter) wouldn't be a more meaningful way of assessing the fit between the tire and wheel?
Yes, and that's why the ERTRO exists to lay down those standard dimensions. But it seems that achieving them is not always so easy....and with hookless, and slight deviation from the correct spec can result in disaster. Non hookless and tubs are not so sensitive to anomalies.
Have a look at Giant's table of hookless compatible tyres... Their own brand tyres are often only compatible in one width (the same model with another width isnt marked as compatible). It's ridiculous... Can you even expect such high tolerances in rim manufacturing - 0,5 mm here 0,5 mm there and you're dicing with death...
Absolutely. Once these wheels get sold on, who is going to check compatibilities?
Good follow up. Ive already commented on the other videos but this kind of thing makes me angry. It IS very difficult to get resin products to conform to exact tolerances, you need to pay close attention to temperature and cure times ( among a myriad of other factors). Knowing this, why in the world run with a design that requires such precise accuracy to function properly at all, with zero redundancy or safety built in to the design? Why reinvent the wheel? This is all done to save the manufacturers money with simpler, cheaper molds and shorter work times. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with improving the design or function of the rim. As an industrial and product designer I find this trend toward hookless nonsensical and, given the extremely high number of failures, unconscionable.
Wow shows the discrepancies in the tyres versus the rim. I always ride tubeless ready hooked wheels no rim tape needed (Dura Ace C36) I couldn’t even get the GP 5000 on my wheels so they lie in a pile way to stiff
Cool Door Handle Too
thanks!
more an MTB/gravel guy, but got a Simploin Kiaro (from 2013) "by accident" from a very good friend, who did not look into the specs (we both have 94.5 inner leg length, but I am 189, hes is 209 cm tall => the Kiaro has a very relaxed STR, which even with a very long stem made the bike useless to him), so have a road bike (again) - luckily, this one is fit with nice DTSwiss wheels with hooked carbon rims... I have been riding hookless/tubeless for ages on MTBs and gravel, but the high pressures needed for road bikes prevent me from using these options...
To be honest you should get a full refund for the wheels as they are not to spec, its quite shocking really. Hats of to Conti for everything they did great report they make you feel secure using their customers. I wonder if a certain youtube channel will try and make another video saying you had set it up wrong 😂
True. But what is 'to spec'? It seems that there are no hard and fast rules which is a bit crazy.
@CyclespeedTours I was thinking of the ETRTO and the wheels being sold as hookless, but if they are only guidelines perhaps they could get away with being out of the margin of error ?
@@tomrachellesfirstdance7843 The ETRTO guidelines do carry some weight, and it strikes me as very risky to sell a wheel outside of these specs. The margin of error in this case is 0.5mm but Extralite are outside of that.
So happy I did the safe choice and bought Shimano wheels. They are hooked.
Hookless has way smaller tolerance margin. Required a higher standard manufacturing process. Giant as an oem themselves has that kind of standard, never heard of any issue from slr or cadex. Smaller hookless wheel company probably having hard time to reach that standard since they are all outsourced and build by some other oem
thank you for sharing. Hopefully this opens people's eyes regarding hookless.
How on earth does this point you to the problem being a spec? The manufacturer of the wheel is clearly not capable of making a hookless wheel. But that has nothing to do with hookless on the whole.
The crux of this story is right around the 5min mark. If both parties are making tires easier to mount... I've not had any issues with my Extralite 339s and I've been riding them for a good 2 years with Enve SES 29". Although I did notice the tires going on much easier than what I'm used to for tubeless setup...
Again ,no hookless rims for me. Thanks for the follow up.
Cool it people. Today this happened to me with my Hooked Hunt Aerodynamicist rim on Pirelli P Zero tubeless at 6.5 bars. I parked the bike and 2 seconds later huge bang, explosion. Sealant everywhere and the tire off the rim completely. No damage on the tire or the rim. Put right back on and inflated it at a bit lower pressure and went riding. Absolutely no idea why it happened.
Hooked rim, tire pumped to 6.5 bars (specs allow 7.5 pressure). When I rode hookless that never happened to me. I've been riding this setup for the entire season, around 4K miles and never had any kind of problem like this today.
Hey! Where the heck did you get that door handle from?? I gotta know
It's an old Sworks crank that broke at the axle. If you search back a few years you will find my video on it!
@@CyclespeedTours thanks!
8:05 very good point i had not thought of.
had Zipps 303 firecrests. no issues. all other rims hooked, no issues. so yeah you either lucky or hooked XD
On 31 December 1992, Czechoslovakia was peacefully dissolved, with its constituent states becoming the independent states of the Czech Republic and Slovakia.
Thanks!
There needs to be a line on tires that shows how evenly the tire is mounted and lets you know how deep into the rim it is mounted.
I think Extralite offering hooked replacement is a decent solution and you should take it. They are still decent rims.
I took an extra pair of tubs in exchange.
Good video. Conti very professional, Extralite clearly need to up their game, and give you that refund. I wouldnt ride those if i was paid.
That was excellent. Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
been waiting for this !
I really want to get a set of 303s but I refuse to buy hookless, just no need for it vs the safety compromise.
Makes sense!
I was looking at those too. Not so much anymore.
Thank you for the follow up, you had bad luck but did a service to all cyclists community , hope you find a satisfactory resolution
@Mapdec Any response to this?
there was concern from the very start of these hookless rims. still not sure why people still go for it knowing there is risk of a blowout and what more at speed or downhill...
Tubular is the best!!!
Well impressed with Conti. 😎👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
So basically they’re saying as long as you use 28mm+ tyres and keep the pressures below 5bar (73.5 psi) we’re good to go? As an engineer I relish this sort of thing, I really do get it…but what about average non engineer Joe? Might be a bit to ask really, as you say considering the safety factors involved.
Stick with what you know and understand.😎👍🏻
Absolutely love that door handle @ 10:41 awesome. 🤩
Blessings from Dorset. 🙏😎👍🏻
Glad someone noticed the door handle!!
I am really wondering if hookless will stick around, it seems to have too many variables to be reliable.
They need to go
It will. It is cheaper. And there are enough zombies out there buying in to this as "innovation".
There is no problem with Giant and cadex wheels. I use 19mm giant carbon hookless wheels with veloflex corsa race tires. Front wheel 5,7 bar rear 6,5 and it is perfect I even tested 7,5 bar without problems. Now I trust giant but you have to use tires approved by them. And veloflex corsa race 25mm tires are amazing much cheaper than conti gp5000 str but far better puncture resistance while not much worse rolling resistance.
Thanks for the content.
My pleasure!
I think it’s just matter of time when this whole hookles mess will get banned.
I think that as road hookless filters into the mainstream, more and more failures will crop up, leading to lots of head scratching.
Great video thanks for update. The torrances isn't much to play with your talking 1mm. Think I'll stick to my hooked rims 😂
Why would any body think hookless is better than hooked in the first place? Hooked rims were absolutely fine, it's just cheaper for the wheel companies to make hookless. Tyre companies must be doing their fucking nut.
Awesome info.
Surprise! Continental, the multinational juggernaut is the stand-up company and the boutique wheelset maker is selling shit out of spec. Shocker. Noticed a while ago that you pulled the original vid. Now we know why. Thanks for sharing. This kind of stuff is treacherous for us new peeps on the cycling scene.
Thx for the followup, great!! Props to Conti.... Extralite need to do their homework properly.
Remember kids, just say no to hookless.
For road in 25mm, definitely!
Why do you reach that conclusion? A more correct answer is to buy wheels only from quality manufacturers. Don’t buy cheap Chinese wheels or stuff from niche manufacturers. The system is good if you know what you are doing, use the right wheels and the right tyres - maybe not for newbies, but experienced riders who take care of their equipment choices. Going back to tubulars cannot be the right answer - especially for newbies!!
@@CG-99 Why throw money out the winder? For what supposed benefit?
@rosomak8244 nothing to do with money. Hookless combined with tubeless is a very good system if you choose the right wheels with the right tyres - system is lighter, more aero, allows lower tyre pressure, means you roll faster and more comfortably with no punctures and no roadside tube changing faff. It takes time though, there are certain techniques to installation to master and what to do when a puncture won't seal on its own, also what seslant to use is also critical. Its just like the endless silly rim / disc debate where some luddites cling to the old style rim brakes mainly because they haven't invested the time needed to properly understand how to live day to day with disc brakes.
@@CG-99 OK let's see, a) lighter - if so, the difference is really tiny, b) more aero - only if tyre perfectly matched to rim, just like any other setup, c) roll faster - depends on so many things, and all being equal, higher pressure = lower Crr. d) no punctures - I got a puncture which had trouble sealing in just the 300kms I used the rear wheel. Never would have happened with a tub (new tyre).
I have reluctantly adopted disc brakes with all their foibles, but the difference is that a rubbing disc or lack of power won't kill you, a tyre blow off might.
Ride road tubular clinchers. Here to cycle hard not to play with fire
Also doubtful you'll maintain those tolerances over the life of the wheel
A problem created where there was none... Sheesh!!!
This should be a product recall and full replacement or refund and potentially legal action as they have sold something they say is ETRTO that isn’t, and it’s dangerous
To be fair, they do not claim to be ETRTO compatible and they don't have to be either. But their wheel should work with a tyre which they approve.
curios how many wheelset recall from Extra lite,
I don't think they're 'recall' kind of people......
Kudos to Conti for investigating this. It really is best to leave hookless aside for another few years and see if A) it just disappears again or B) bike manufacturers actually manage to agree on and adhere to tolerances. Until then, it's just a gamble with your health on the line. No thanks for me. And I do ride hookless rims on my gravel bike.
Absolutely.
great work , wonder if mr mapdec has anythng to add.....( btw usually he seems v good but not this time)
I think you would like some lightbicycle hoops
Hookless is only going to last until a lawsuit. They are simply too dangerous.
So the tyre should be 28mm or wider for hookless rims as I look at your chart, and then it probably works. (Ehm still some more exceptions up to 32mm) Good to know thanks a lot!!
Be careful!
I'm riding the 35mm version for my gravel bike at wider rims, so it should work
Much respect to Continental for a thorough investigation. That said: if you are relying on so small a margin, I´d not buy into the hookless technology at all. Not only for safety reasons but for the versatility and freedom of tyre choice!
Another guy discovering why hooks where invented on rims.
Just as we move away from press fit bottom brackets we had to bring out hookless rims.
Hookless rims are a poor solution for and industry that struggles with QC and tolerances. At least a poor fitting BB does not put your life at risk. Just because something is possible does not make it a good idea. Riders need to consider the risks and outcomes.
The problem so far, that I could tell from multiple videos about 'hookless blow off', is that hookless tech is totally relying on compatibility of numbers instead of having a safe-guard mechanism like the hook itself. If you buy from less well-known brands, or you are layze enough that you don't want to carefully follow the instructions, you will have blow off.
I am running 404 with gp5000str just fine so far for 2 years. The lesson I ve learned is that you should not mount and dismount the tire frequently to avoid wearing the bead from time to time. And be sure to buy from trusted brands that has using this tech for years and it is implemented also on GT races.
It's not like hooked tires/rims have always been a prefect match. I can't count the number of times I've needed 2 layers of thick cotton tape to seat a tire. I've also had beads totally break due to being undersized. Tubeless hookless is far ahead of where hooked clinchers clinchers were even 20yrs into their existence.
*I can't fathom installing and removing a tire enough to wear the bead down during the life of a tire. There's nearly no friction to wear it down and it's barely moving on the bead seat when it is moving.
Thank you!
For the beginner rider, tubulars are way too much of a faff to get right. Hookless is not ready for prime time. I'm sticking with hooked tubeless clinchers for the time being. BTW, at 75 kg, I'm running 55/60 on Vittoria Corsa N.EXT tires mounted on Reynolds AR-29 wheels. I tried 65/70 and ended up sliding out on a turn and breaking ribs. Lastly. cRR isn't the statistic I look for as you can slide tires on any tarmac/concrete. I look for stickiness and how much power will transfer given the road surface and condition.
Good points; hooked tubeless is a good way to go for most. But tape makes tubulars much easier to install. It's true that Crr is not everything - grip is also very important. If I know I will be descending a lot I go down to 5.5 to 6 bar
@@CyclespeedTours tape helps with mounting tubulars, but it's still a faff to get the tire seated correctly. I know riders who are riding them and have done so for decades who still encounter issues mounting tubulars.
@@jamesmckenzie3532 I leave the backing tape on and inflate to 2 bar which usually aligns the tyre nicely. Then remove backing tape and inflate to 10 bar which fully straightens it.
Great research by conti, shame on extralite, the ETRO specs are there for a reason. Imagine car wheel manufacturers start doing this to make it easier to mount tires, insane! You conclusion is mostly bonkers though, if you want your 8 bars tubes then why the hell did you get hookless rims.
Not 8 bar, 6. I was prepared to try 5 bar hookless to see what it felt like. I never really got much chance to ride at 5 bar though, because the tyre blew off! I did ride a bit afterwards at 4.3 ish, and it definitely felt too squishy to me.
Also, the ETRTO dimensions are not really 'specifications' as such, just guidelines. (Unfortunately!)
Reason why i'm sticking to using clinchers.
"Kinda think"?!?!?!? These wheels don't meet the ETRTO specifications. They should be recalled and replaced or full refunds offered. Civil/criminal action should follow if they fail to do this. Anyone injured by their sub-standard product should sue the hell out of them.
After years in bike retail I'll never understand the sort of "Stockholm syndrome" cycling consumers seem to have for companies who make huge profits by letting them (the consumer) perform the R & D on their (often) substandard products. SRAM is example #1 IMHO.
This is further evidence of hookless being crazy. Imagine the average starter cyclist understanding any of this. Tyres staying on the rims is about rule number 1 in cycling.
exactly
Ok. Today this happened to me with my Hooked Hunt Aerodynamicist rim on Pirelli P Zero tubeless at 6.5 bars. I parked the bike and 2 seconds later huge bang, explosion. Sealant everywhere and the tire off the rim completely. No damage on the tire or the rim. Put right back on and inflated it at a bit lower pressure and went riding. Absolutely no idea why it happened.
Hooked rim, tire pumped to 6.5 bars (specs allow 7.5 pressure). When I rode hookless that never happened to me. I've been riding this setup for the entire season, around 4K miles and never had any kind of problem like this today.
I just cannot buy into tubeless let alone hookless. The weight savings of tubeless is actually a weight gain when sealant is taken into account. The power advantage of tubeless is is .05 Watts, for me not worth the hassle.
I also use Mr Tuffy liners, have a flat maybe once every 20 years, if not less. I am 70 still ride 50 km a day, mainly gravel, and road.
I have never had a clincher that came anywhere close to the control I get from a tubby, unfortunately these days there is too much debris on the road and trails to make tubbies a viable option, get too many flats.