Even people who know the game have tricked themselves into thinking G&W is "almost" good. Hax at one point supposedly said G&W is the "definitive 13th best character in the game" (which would put G&W like...above Donkey Kong, Gannondorf, Mario, etc). Cody picked up a G&W secondary (nicknamed IBGW) to try and do the things Zain was doing with Roy and Leffen was doing with Mewtwo (but didn't have the same success). Game & watch does have good moves. Plenty of them. That's what tricks people into thinking he's almost good. G&W just doesn't have a working shield, is the same weight as Jigglypuff, and they forgot to code L-cancelling on some of his aerials. Playing G&W is a bit like playing Mario (basically the same jump, wavedash, and dash as Mario) except with half the weight and you can't really shield.
I think that not pointing out that samus's uptilt is a combo starter on grounded opponents, but falcon's is not, was a bit of an important differentiation between the two. Samus mains spam uptilt at low percent because it has true followups into her strongest combo starters :3 it's like a grounded dair!
Yeah I am 99% sure if you point blank utilt with doc that is never sending up, no matter what frame it hits on. I thought it only sent up if they hit the top of it
Would love to see this series continued. Not sure what your enjoyment level is when it comes to ranking moves in this way, but because of this and the down-tilt video you’ve got my likes and my sub.
God I'm so glad this is a series!!! I feel like Marth up tilt also deserves a shout out for becoming an important kill move once you get to Marthritis range in some matchups
loving these move overview lists, excited to see more comparisons and judgments! as someone who mains bowser, i would say everything you're saying about it is very true. i'd still nudge it up higher, though. it's range is DECEPTIVELY large, widely increasing it's use cases, although it does have kind of a tough blind spot closer to his body that can make it inadvisable to use point blank. it's also a really scary move for someone to attempt to land on because of this.
Very cool video. Only thing I would mention is how much better Luigis up tilt is to the Mario's - Luigi's knocks fox down at 16%, the Mario's knock down at 38% They are certainly waaayy different moves
most of the room for debate comes from their wildly different uses tho bowser's utilt is a frame 6 kill move that kills surprisingly early. if it wasn't on... bowser, it would be a pretty solid kill move samus utilt being a meteor on grounded opponents also makes it way better than falcon's, imo. It's a stomp that you can perform while ASDI'ing down!
One thing: you mentioned the Doc knockback behavior backwards. First frame hits away, the rest is upward. This is why it is more useful as an anti-air or used "meaty" in combos. Love ur vids have a great day!
Great stuff, was literally hoping you'd do this right after I watched the downtilt video lol. Btw would you ever consider making a Melee DK matchup chart video? That would be really interesting
Hey June I'm really liking these videos, one small critique: I don't think it makes sense to call tier lists ranking on a binary. It's more of a spectrum. A binary is usually used to mean literally two options, no more. So I suppose an unranked tier list with only two tiers could be a binary, but anything more would be a ranking or a grade or a spectrum I think. Let me know if I got got! Looking forward to the DAFT video C:
i think spacie utilt being on spacies makes you think they’re better than they are. think putting marth or sheik utilt on spacies, ics, peach, puff, or pika. those options are absolutely busted compared to spacie utilt. the only character that could prefer spacie utilt is falcon cause he has nothing on the ground to begin with.
Hilariously, Bowser's uptilt is actually one of his better moves. Coming out at frame 7 means it's his second fastest grounded tool (besides up-b and tying with his garbage jab), and it hits strong enough to kill at high percent. it's also doable out of his ledgedash! Even it's terrible endlag stings a bit less when every other move he has is practically the same LOL
Fun series! Love reading the comments. It's kind of weird to me that you seem to have made this one with respect to the character they're attached to but the dtilt one was the moves "in a vacuum". Any reason you changed your framing? Or maybe I just have it all wrong.
I was still trying to do it for this one! But yeah you're right I talked about how they work in relation to the character to try and frame how they would work on others
Definitely agree with falco uptilt being the best. Another secret reason why it’s better than foxes is less endlag when it clanks due to doing less damage, making falco’s way harder to deal with in the scrap
Bowser is a frame 7 AND very disjointed KILL MOVE (pretty sure it’s the 2nd strongest behind Ganon ofc lol). Only problem is that it really does take for-fucking-ever to end the animation unfortunately. If it was a good bit faster it could’ve been potentially rly good, it’s definitely better than Roy and Icies tho. Great vid as usual tho gonna drop a phat like
Not sure if you are gonna do all of the moves, but it would be really interesting to see an average tier for all the characters. You could see if it looked similar to the normal tier list or if there were some outliers that had a lot of great moves but just poor attributes.
Random thoughts : M2's utilt is bloody hard to use, complex, and deepens the char's mixup/combo tree significantly. Feels close to Marth's in many ways. Link's and ylink's might look similar but it's much more part of Link's core moveset in several matchups. Yoshi's is probably underexplored, but the utilt is quite alright, he just doesn't have many situations outside of combo mixups where he'd use it over usmash, or djc uair, which has mobility and can come after armour. Fun videos, ty
I think this tierlist is very based on what the characters can do after their up tilt instead of a completely neutral stance of which of all the up tilts we would pick for a custom character, for example if I were to give spacies up tilt to bowser or zelda then they wouldn't be able to do much with it besides spamming, but if I give ganon up tilt to marth/fox/falco yeah their kit would be worse but would still be strong characters
Think there's a mistake on Sheik Utilt - you say IASA is 32 and that it is plus on shield, but I believe the IASA is 26. If it was really IASA 32 it would definitely not be plus on shield since it only deals 3 frames of shieldstun. Great vid otherwise though!! Love your stuff
I do think that marth has the best up tilt since its also a good disjointed and safe kill move vs floaties Also mewtwos is good but only the weak hit is disjointed so i think its over rated in this list Another difference between fox and falcos uptilt is their trajectory angles. Fox sends a decent amount further in front of him Fun video though :) looking forward to the next one
Feel like marth easily clears, space up tilts are good because they’re on characters with high mobility and combo potential. But both spacies would be disgusting with marth up tilt
I know you didn't mention it but yoshi uptilt has huge advantages over ftilt at low percents bc it knocks down the heavier chars at 0 whereas ftilt knocks down in the late teens. idk how relevant to the convo you think this is, but in the age of asdi tech in place, having an option with lower startup and earlier knockdown % is p good
@@Rickydickydodahgrimes. honestly roy's kit is super cohesive once you get it. The only move that doesn't really "fit" is back-air. It can _rarely_ lead into fsmash or dsmash like the other aerials, but it's very difficult to use.
You forgot Marth’s utilt is also a legit kill move and one of his best kill options in general. It’s really hard to believe Spacies have a better utilt than Marth and Sheik.
zelda up tilt is much better than you realize, there's solid base knockback and its much more consistent to get follow ups than many of the moves you placed above it and the hitbox is very good! it can beat a lot of landing aerials and in general its one of her few usable moves. also ics up tilt is much better in the bad version of the game where
Before watching the vid Id say the best is either GnW, M2, or species. I feel like GnW will get robbed like in the dtilt tierlist though. Kirby is getting his time to shine here as well Edit: GnW's better than the Mario bros >:c
Samus uptilt ranked way too low, it literally is a Falcon stomp if it hits on the ground, leading into a chargeshot kill on the whole cast, and on shield it's not possible for the opponent to punish with wavedash out of shield if it's spaced well
![Gunna - HIM ALL ALONG [Official Visualizer]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/HiCxoDeo0hc/mqdefault.jpg)
I love to think of a world where someone is watching these lists in a vacuum with no other melee knowledge and they start to think Mr GnW is high tier
Yeah G&W is a character with some of the best moves in the game... and some of the worst everything else
Even people who know the game have tricked themselves into thinking G&W is "almost" good. Hax at one point supposedly said G&W is the "definitive 13th best character in the game" (which would put G&W like...above Donkey Kong, Gannondorf, Mario, etc). Cody picked up a G&W secondary (nicknamed IBGW) to try and do the things Zain was doing with Roy and Leffen was doing with Mewtwo (but didn't have the same success).
Game & watch does have good moves. Plenty of them. That's what tricks people into thinking he's almost good.
G&W just doesn't have a working shield, is the same weight as Jigglypuff, and they forgot to code L-cancelling on some of his aerials. Playing G&W is a bit like playing Mario (basically the same jump, wavedash, and dash as Mario) except with half the weight and you can't really shield.
if g&w was coded correctly, melee players would know true pain
@@arJunebugSmash the eldritch horror of 3.6 GNW
@@arJunebugSmash Next character project?!?
The top five up tilts being Fox, Falco, Marth, Shiek, and *Kirby* is really funny.
The 5 best characters in the game, what's weird about that 🤷♂️
@@mr.noodle6931idk bro ganondorf has hoover built into his uptilt and I think he has gotta be top 5 after learning the power of "THE PUNCH"
I think that not pointing out that samus's uptilt is a combo starter on grounded opponents, but falcon's is not, was a bit of an important differentiation between the two.
Samus mains spam uptilt at low percent because it has true followups into her strongest combo starters :3 it's like a grounded dair!
Ya Samus up tilt is def not in the same tier as falcon. It's hard to punish and sets up for a lot
Right
damn, junebug feeding us good this week
OBVIOUSLY it’s Ganon up tilt because it can break shields with one hit, which means it completely OWNS puff.
It doesn't break shields in melee. But it kills at like 0 on yoshi's which is why ganon on yoshis is the best character in the game.
Lowkey the best part of these videos is when you show off sick combos using the tilts as you're narrating
the june bugs are eating well this week
imagine how well they'll be eating next month
Quick fact check
Actually for doc’s uptilt the first frame sends away, the rest of the frames send up.
Yeah I am 99% sure if you point blank utilt with doc that is never sending up, no matter what frame it hits on. I thought it only sent up if they hit the top of it
yoshi uptilt is a lot better then ur giving it credit
Maybe bc Yoshi has such good combos off of it.
Imagine Yoshi with Falco's uptilt.
Imagine how nerfed Marth would be if he had Yoshi's uptilt
knocks down at zero, theres also a good melee moments video about it. ruclips.net/video/v55T3ahlNOw/видео.htmlsi=d-VPkgPPbcuPTLik
@@andrewbank4696 falcon would be cracked w/ yoshi uptilt. its frame 8 and it knocks down at ZERO. comparing it to marth uptilt tho isnt fair
I think it should at least be up there with jiggs and pika. It has a little more lag but it also sets up for kill confirms
yeah my gut said yoshi's uptilt in a strange place
Would love to see this series continued. Not sure what your enjoyment level is when it comes to ranking moves in this way, but because of this and the down-tilt video you’ve got my likes and my sub.
yoshi's up tilt might be underrated because it can knock down at low-mid %. it's definitely not great as a launcher
Agree!
God I'm so glad this is a series!!!
I feel like Marth up tilt also deserves a shout out for becoming an important kill move once you get to Marthritis range in some matchups
June bug with the back to back uploads? Baby it's a good week
loving these move overview lists, excited to see more comparisons and judgments!
as someone who mains bowser, i would say everything you're saying about it is very true. i'd still nudge it up higher, though. it's range is DECEPTIVELY large, widely increasing it's use cases, although it does have kind of a tough blind spot closer to his body that can make it inadvisable to use point blank. it's also a really scary move for someone to attempt to land on because of this.
I could see it being above Zelda or even Roy maybe
Bowser main rise up
As a gnw main his up tilt is as good as the spacies
Where's the obligatory Ftilt Tier list that reminds everyone that Sheik has a combo starter, extender, pressure tool and anti-air move?
Would love to see a video simply discussing the changes to each of these characters' respective moves in PM.
Very cool video.
Only thing I would mention is how much better Luigis up tilt is to the Mario's - Luigi's knocks fox down at 16%, the Mario's knock down at 38%
They are certainly waaayy different moves
most of the room for debate comes from their wildly different uses tho
bowser's utilt is a frame 6 kill move that kills surprisingly early. if it wasn't on... bowser, it would be a pretty solid kill move
samus utilt being a meteor on grounded opponents also makes it way better than falcon's, imo. It's a stomp that you can perform while ASDI'ing down!
loving the chill format. interesting to think if good tilts are more important than good smash attacks, given how few low tiers are high on this list.
One thing: you mentioned the Doc knockback behavior backwards. First frame hits away, the rest is upward. This is why it is more useful as an anti-air or used "meaty" in combos.
Love ur vids have a great day!
Loving this type of content. Hope you put out more of these
Hell yeah dude keep up the awesome videos
Glad you like them!
@@arJunebugSmash For sure dude! Melee analysis videos are like crack to me lmao
What is the neutral fox skin mod used at the start I really want it (specifically 0:08)
Also is there one without a halo?
Great stuff, was literally hoping you'd do this right after I watched the downtilt video lol. Btw would you ever consider making a Melee DK matchup chart video? That would be really interesting
Junebug sounds like a guy I would be friends with
It's the thing kirby got going for him just make him win the one thing in this game.
Subbed for this kind of content keep it up mate
Hey June I'm really liking these videos, one small critique: I don't think it makes sense to call tier lists ranking on a binary. It's more of a spectrum. A binary is usually used to mean literally two options, no more. So I suppose an unranked tier list with only two tiers could be a binary, but anything more would be a ranking or a grade or a spectrum I think.
Let me know if I got got! Looking forward to the DAFT video C:
ah you're correct! spectrum of good and bad, not binary of good and bad
This should be a seriesssss
i think spacie utilt being on spacies makes you think they’re better than they are. think putting marth or sheik utilt on spacies, ics, peach, puff, or pika. those options are absolutely busted compared to spacie utilt. the only character that could prefer spacie utilt is falcon cause he has nothing on the ground to begin with.
Great video , looking forward to more
audio was better for previous videos? great video though
Hilariously, Bowser's uptilt is actually one of his better moves. Coming out at frame 7 means it's his second fastest grounded tool (besides up-b and tying with his garbage jab), and it hits strong enough to kill at high percent. it's also doable out of his ledgedash! Even it's terrible endlag stings a bit less when every other move he has is practically the same LOL
Fun series! Love reading the comments.
It's kind of weird to me that you seem to have made this one with respect to the character they're attached to but the dtilt one was the moves "in a vacuum". Any reason you changed your framing? Or maybe I just have it all wrong.
I was still trying to do it for this one! But yeah you're right I talked about how they work in relation to the character to try and frame how they would work on others
Kirby doing the Fortnite dance is hilarious for no reason. Lol
Definitely agree with falco uptilt being the best. Another secret reason why it’s better than foxes is less endlag when it clanks due to doing less damage, making falco’s way harder to deal with in the scrap
Great video as always, thanks
Thanks for watching!
Bowser is a frame 7 AND very disjointed KILL MOVE (pretty sure it’s the 2nd strongest behind Ganon ofc lol). Only problem is that it really does take for-fucking-ever to end the animation unfortunately. If it was a good bit faster it could’ve been potentially rly good, it’s definitely better than Roy and Icies tho. Great vid as usual tho gonna drop a phat like
FACTS
I'm looking forward to the full 26 video series
Excellent, awesome follow up. But you know, since you did down and up, you should really do f-tilts. Just to round out the series, you know?
Not sure if you are gonna do all of the moves, but it would be really interesting to see an average tier for all the characters. You could see if it looked similar to the normal tier list or if there were some outliers that had a lot of great moves but just poor attributes.
Nice video Junebug! Now we need you to make a video for every move in the game lol. Thanks in advance :)
LOL at this rate I'm giving up after tilts I can't deal with the hate 😭
@@arJunebugSmash Noooo I hope you're joking lol. I've been following melee since 2004 and have always wanted a series like this. Do it for meeeee lol
Random thoughts :
M2's utilt is bloody hard to use, complex, and deepens the char's mixup/combo tree significantly. Feels close to Marth's in many ways.
Link's and ylink's might look similar but it's much more part of Link's core moveset in several matchups.
Yoshi's is probably underexplored, but the utilt is quite alright, he just doesn't have many situations outside of combo mixups where he'd use it over usmash, or djc uair, which has mobility and can come after armour.
Fun videos, ty
and yoshi ftilt. It really feels like amsa only uses it as a mixup in rare situations
Love these videos sm good job junebug
I think this tierlist is very based on what the characters can do after their up tilt instead of a completely neutral stance of which of all the up tilts we would pick for a custom character, for example if I were to give spacies up tilt to bowser or zelda then they wouldn't be able to do much with it besides spamming, but if I give ganon up tilt to marth/fox/falco yeah their kit would be worse but would still be strong characters
spacie uptilt on Zelda would probably combo into lightning kick. Nightmare parrallel universe lol
Audio is pretty quiet in this one.
sheik's uptilt is the best move in the game. try shielding on FoD against Drephen for more information
Yes junebug upload moreeee I wanna grow addicted to this content 😊😊😊
You gotta keep making these
Best RUclips Series of 2008 😂
Think there's a mistake on Sheik Utilt - you say IASA is 32 and that it is plus on shield, but I believe the IASA is 26. If it was really IASA 32 it would definitely not be plus on shield since it only deals 3 frames of shieldstun.
Great vid otherwise though!! Love your stuff
sheik's IASA is frame 26. it's actionable as hell
We need your smash melee ntsc tier list🗣️
I do think that marth has the best up tilt since its also a good disjointed and safe kill move vs floaties
Also mewtwos is good but only the weak hit is disjointed so i think its over rated in this list
Another difference between fox and falcos uptilt is their trajectory angles. Fox sends a decent amount further in front of him
Fun video though :) looking forward to the next one
if ur gonna continue this series which i hope u do, u should show the hit boxes when ur first showing the moves
If you are using smash stick it is easier to do tilts with low stick sensitivity. That is what it is for
Feel like marth easily clears, space up tilts are good because they’re on characters with high mobility and combo potential. But both spacies would be disgusting with marth up tilt
I know you didn't mention it but yoshi uptilt has huge advantages over ftilt at low percents bc it knocks down the heavier chars at 0 whereas ftilt knocks down in the late teens. idk how relevant to the convo you think this is, but in the age of asdi tech in place, having an option with lower startup and earlier knockdown % is p good
I'm convinced that Bowser and Roy were literally never playtested.
You can get Roy's uptilt after an upthrow against spacies, and at certain percents it's true into fsmash
@@rosheafan Alright?
Roy was playtested for 2 minutes, they saw that down tilt was good,they called It a day and they released the game a day later
@@Rickydickydodahgrimes. honestly roy's kit is super cohesive once you get it. The only move that doesn't really "fit" is back-air. It can _rarely_ lead into fsmash or dsmash like the other aerials, but it's very difficult to use.
@@rosheafan the only thing that i don't get about his moveset is why the last hit of upb doesn't kill.
Nice vid mate
Next video who has the best mustache in Melee
You forgot Marth’s utilt is also a legit kill move and one of his best kill options in general. It’s really hard to believe Spacies have a better utilt than Marth and Sheik.
Stupidest thing about Marth is moves can clank with his head when he has hitboxes active
I think i might have an idea what the next video might be on...
6:51 "all the Marios" lol
Oh shit, Junebug!
Do more of these videos
zelda up tilt is much better than you realize, there's solid base knockback and its much more consistent to get follow ups than many of the moves you placed above it and the hitbox is very good! it can beat a lot of landing aerials and in general its one of her few usable moves. also ics up tilt is much better in the bad version of the game where
who was the fox clip at 1:20 because My oh my
bizzaro flame, obviously
May is 4:3 month for June
1:19 unless your tierlist consists of A and F then youre not ranking anything on a binary
Zelda’s up tilt is soo active it’s different I swear
puff, kirby, shiek, game, marth
Falcon up tilt is such a disrespectfull combo starter leading to a knee
Yo my Mewtwo clips are in here let's go 😮
0:53 there’s no utilt in that mew2 clip LuL
Don’t sleep on the links
I'll try not to next time 😭
F tilt (and then every other category of move) when?
Dang 2 vids back to back? You good june?😂
f-tilt tier list sounds cursed
am i crazy or was there no up tilt in this clip lmao 0:53
clip so good he had to put it again in the second video regardless of no uptilt
That was my bad, this instant aerials from the Boxx Mewtwo were so fast it honestly looked like uptilt to me
i see u with them skins justus :)
Samus should be in Marth/Sheik tier tbh
Wow junebug content very cool
2 VIDEOS IN 2 DAYS???
I got hit below the ledge by Fox’s reverse u tilt earlier. That was enough for me to end the sesh early.
Before watching the vid Id say the best is either GnW, M2, or species. I feel like GnW will get robbed like in the dtilt tierlist though. Kirby is getting his time to shine here as well
Edit: GnW's better than the Mario bros >:c
do neutral tilt next pls
the visuals and editing on this are incredible. best looking melee video i've seen
thanks to Justus!
Yoshi uptilt knocks down at 0
Samus uptilt ranked way too low, it literally is a Falcon stomp if it hits on the ground, leading into a chargeshot kill on the whole cast, and on shield it's not possible for the opponent to punish with wavedash out of shield if it's spaced well
Taunt tierlist plz
Taunt tier list when?
"Strong Up" why would this have been the official name? What is your source? We always called it uptilt...
www.ssbwiki.com/Up_tilt
So it's Marths right?
Give peach ganon's uptilt annd she's a better character instantly
I feel like Ics is underrated
Best taunt next please
Pikachu